For the last time, BISEXUALITY ISN’T INHERENTLY TRANS EXCLUSIONARY!

@isabelkloberdanz6329

3 жыл бұрын

Literally if I'm attracted to a trans girl that doesn't mean I'm attracted to a third gender. That attraction still falls under male and female, which is what I'm into.

@floralynn5527

3 жыл бұрын

@@isabelkloberdanz6329 omg the fact that people who identifies as (insert a sexuality 'greater' than bisexuality) often sees transwoman/men as a third gender rather than a woman/men

@miteruno

3 жыл бұрын

"for the last time" to whom? a comment on a youtube video is supposed to clear an entire population doubt forever? on a topic that not even lgbt people don't understand?

@InkSans_FandomSoda

3 жыл бұрын

@@spellman007 That- is super transphobic

@russianbot1339

3 жыл бұрын

@@spellman007 Cringe.

I've yet to see a bisexual say that "bi" is about being attracted to only two genders but I sure as hell saw a lot of people who don't identify as bisexual say that.

@miagianna9013

2 жыл бұрын

Kind of fitting considering bisexual history. Bisexual people themselves have ALWAYS described being bi as „attraction regardless of gender“. The name bisexual was given to us by cis-het doctors that only recognized gender as the two sexes and under the context of categorizing bisexuality as a mental illness. It seems like decades later non-bisexual people still can‘t help but force their opinion and views of our sexuality onto us regardless of what bisexual people themselves say. It‘s a goddamn self fulfilling prophecy.

@earpwinchester3252

2 жыл бұрын

The truth is that now those who are not PAN are now transphobic. They're canceling lesbians who like vaginas and gays who like cocks.

@Paulene_hargrove

2 жыл бұрын

My friends girlfriend broke up with them when they came out as non binary (used to be she/her) because "bi people only like boys and girls". My friend was so sad :(

@furbyacolyte5604

2 жыл бұрын

very common outside of the US i'm afraid, particularly in regions where language is gendered. i get where folks are coming from but beyond the history of bisexuality as documented by usamericans, the term "bi" has taken on a life of its own elsewhere that sometimes (only sometimes) has a bias towards the binary, making "pan" necessary.

@xxxxxxxxMAIxxxxxxxx

2 жыл бұрын

pansexual in asia popping in that we thought bi only means attraction to two genders because we took the "bi" term literally. my bi best friend only knew about it a few weeks ago when i did explain how i discovered that the two terms had beef with each other (in internet spaces) because of the etmologies and how they're being used to exclude certain genders

As a bi person I’m attracted to everyone... unless I’m not attracted to them. Liking people is complicated.

@HiBuddyyyyyy

2 жыл бұрын

But at the same time it’s not too. You like who you like. That’s simple enough for me, so why don’t other people understand?

@floofdoodle4349

2 жыл бұрын

@@HiBuddyyyyyy people are just crazy for lables

@qwertykeyboard5901

2 жыл бұрын

"Oh! That person has good looks!" "Oh! That person has good looks!" "Oh! That person has good looks!" ...

@sircorkysriley4904

2 жыл бұрын

of course that only makes sense. Do you find you like people who are more like yourself?? I seem to.

@eldritchkitten1627

2 жыл бұрын

@@sircorkysriley4904 I'm glad I'm not the only one, sometimes I get paranoid that I'm being too similar to people that are my type and they won't be interested because of the similarities.

I consider myself bisexual for a couple of reasons -Everyone is hot -I like the colors That's literally it

@miem9775

2 жыл бұрын

my dislike for the pansexual flag's colours is basically the main reason for me identifying as bi too :D

@superzooperhaze6597

2 жыл бұрын

this right here man

@xochiltaviles4539

2 жыл бұрын

LITERALLY ME 😂😂💖💙💜

@gayfurry997

2 жыл бұрын

based

@annad1132

2 жыл бұрын

YES just- why did they use these colors in pansexuals' flag...

I’ve seen discourse saying “bisexuality is transphobic” and I’ve seen discourse saying “pansexuality is transphobic” 🥴

@lengarion

3 жыл бұрын

I specifically remember a time when I (bi, agender) learned that being pan was inherently transphobic, as it implied transmen and transwomen are not actually men and women, and you need an extra-special word to include saying you like those, too. It was explained to me that, by giving it a new label, you just bring attention to the fact that trans-people are 'other'. So I avoided doing that and stuck with "bi", which I take to mean "1: my own gender (agender) and 2: potentially every other gender". Years later, and the discourse around that took a 180°.

@SybilNix

3 жыл бұрын

@@lengarion lmao it’s all so confusing 😭 I feel like “pan is transphobic” was a particularly strong belief before non-binary genders started to become more well-known and understood AND because many of us aren’t aware of actual bisexual history and the fact that it does actually incorporate non-binary genders and doesn’t actually mean strictly “two.” Some people may have used “pan” to invalidate trans identities, but I think many of us just..... probably are/were non-binary 😂 Idk, this is just what I’ve seen, so I’m talking out my ass. I’m agender/nonbinary and identified as pan a few years ago, but now I go with bisexual/demisexual because I like the biseuxal flag more 😂

@mirandawatson99

3 жыл бұрын

I mean, to the pansexuals that acuse me of being transphobic for being bi I usually point out that they're the transphobic ones if they separate cis attraction from trans attraction? As if they weren't the gender they say.

@mirandawatson99

3 жыл бұрын

@@Volzotran i think I didn't express myself properly. I don't think pansexuals are transphobic. Anyone can use whatever label they feel most confortable with. What I meant to say is some people Who call themselves pansexuals have called ME transphobic for not including trans people in my sexuality, and that I usually point out to them that making that comment is transphobic in itself, because binary trans people shouldnt come in a different category than man/woman

@mirandawatson99

3 жыл бұрын

@@Volzotran of course, there's ignorant people anywhere

At this point, everytime someone asks me why I identify as bi and not pan if "bi suggest two" and "you claim to not just be attracted to man and woman", I just say that a really dislike the colour yellow, so I don't want to use a flag that has that colour in it. Surprisingly, people seems to accept that more easily than whatever other particular reasons

@plx26

3 жыл бұрын

I'm screaming ahkdhdhdj honestly I might start using that one too

@miacarter5572

3 жыл бұрын

I've used this before lmao

@tallguy5618

3 жыл бұрын

I've used this before but the other way around (I just really like the color yellow) and I think it's really funny

@plx26

3 жыл бұрын

@Only Fennec see, that too wouldn't work with me because I am solely attracted to people for their looks, not really interested in anything else... I guess I am very shallow what can I say, but at least I admit it 🤷🏼‍♀️😂

@mxflint1715

3 жыл бұрын

@Only Fennec i mean... don't you see that that looks kinda of bad? Like you can't say things like that and then not being accused of thinking that bi people as shallow or just care about the appearance of the person they're attracted to...

To me, I like to think of the prefix “bi-“ in “bisexual” as the same thing as when people want a “couple” of chips. Even though the term “couple” means “two” in the dictionary, if I gave someone two chips when they ask for a couple, they will probably be mad at me because that’s not what they meant.

@PetraPank666

2 жыл бұрын

Best explanation I've seen in a while. Will probably steal it. :D

@ollie218

Жыл бұрын

i really like this !!!!

@Rose-so5sk

Жыл бұрын

I like.

@febblepebble

Жыл бұрын

Personally I've lately been thinking of sexuality as being attracted to "genders like your own" or "genders unlike your own", which feels more inclusive and true to at least me, and bisexual would be attraction to genders both like and unlike your own, which also works with the "bi" prefix (not saying against your comment, just adding another interpretation) (also I am not bisexual personally which may or may not affect my interpretation)

@devg4159

Жыл бұрын

when I think of "bi" in the bisexuality I think of the binary in "my gender" and "not my gender"

i hate when people assume since i'm bi i'm not into non-binary people (of course this only happens online cause irl no one has petty discourse like this) when bisexuality has always included all genders. even worse when they assume bisexuals exclude all trans people cause that's just transphobic rhetoric? even IF bisexual meant exlusively attraction to women and men (it doesn't) it would still include trans women and men

@Roanmonster

2 жыл бұрын

Online people are so silly. There is this youtuber who calls herself bisexual and is in a relationship with a trans man. She's been told to be transphobic because she does not call herself pansexual and is thereby invalidating her partner as a trans man? Like lol the mental gymnastics are beyond me

@spacegay9309

2 жыл бұрын

When you say that you have to be pan to like trans people, aren't you basically saying that trans men aren't men and trans women aren't women?

@CristalianaIvor

2 жыл бұрын

@@spacegay9309 exactly. Honestly I just like the bi-flag more? XD And it already says it all - in my opinion: you have blue - a stereotypically masculine color, you have magenta - a stereotypically feminie color... But you have violet in between: a mix of both colors. So in my opinion: when you are bi you like the feminine, the masculine and anything in between / every mix of it. Since I see myself as non-binary myself (demiwoman) I of course ask myself - would that not exclude Non-binary people? Doesn't the BI of bisexual imply the gender-binary that I am basically fighting to destroy? And I came to the conclusion, that we are splitting hair at this point. Does an identity label have to 100% exactly describe you? No. What people need to understand is that labels are just that: labels. They just can't accurately describe people and no two people with the same label are the same. If you really want to know what being bi means to someone - ask them. if you are not willing to ask them - why do you even care what being bi exactly 100% means to that person? It's none of your business.

@himesilva

2 жыл бұрын

@@Roanmonster Do people like that not realize that they’re implying that trans men aren’t just… men? That the term needs to be expanded to include those who aren’t quite “man” enough to count under “men and women”? That’s a super invalidating insinuation, that commenter was dumb af

@nnn326

2 жыл бұрын

I think people who say bisexuals don't like enbies just don't know the history of the word yet and go etymology definition. It comes from a lack of education.

I find the whole weird bi vs pan discourse so... internet. In my real life I know pan people. I am a bisexual myself. I never have beef with the pansexual people I know, and they have never accused me of being transphobic. They never assumed I can't like trans people. We just high-five that we found other omnisexual people, and keep it pushing.

@kirbysthiccthighs

3 жыл бұрын

yes!!! as a pansexual, i have plenty of bi friends, and i don’t think of them as any “lesser” than me. just because i connect better with one label doesn’t mean that other people can’t use a label that they see fit. plus, if my friends were transphobic,,, they wouldn’t be friends with my non-binary ass💀 of course the transphobia aspect varies for everyone, but being bisexual isn’t inherently transphobic. it pisses me off to see bisexuals get so much shit for absolutely no reason.

@domesticbanana6766

3 жыл бұрын

right!!

@gray7624

3 жыл бұрын

I’m a pan here, I think anyone’s cool no matter their sexuality or identity. We’re a community, we should bring each other up! No ones lesser or greater. Everyone’s different.

@zcalhoun3638

3 жыл бұрын

@@kirbysthiccthighs right exactly....personally i have liked enbys, girls, and guys so im not a binary bi but i still just like vibe more with the term bisexual, and ive yet to be called transphobic, i have bi and pan friends and we've never argued about this

@dayzedandconfuzed

3 жыл бұрын

i’m bi and i find it so weird that ppl even have these discussions, like i don’t debate pan ppl about our sexualities bc i don’t rly care, like isn’t the whole point that we just want to be left alone and like who we like, in whatever label we feel fits us? idk. weird. (also i had never rly heard abt bi ppl being called transphobic bc of our sexuality til now ?)

Something that I’ve heard of in regards to the bi in bisexual is that the two things in the definition are being attracted to both your own gender and those not your own gender which I really like personally.

@IamThat00

3 жыл бұрын

I have heard and read something similar, that bi means attraction to more than two genders (or as you said yo tour own gender and another gender) and pan means attraction despite the gender or equally to all genders. So based on that, bisexuality is an umbrella term and pansexuality is a subcategory of bisexuality.

@TehTeh911

3 жыл бұрын

@@IamThat00 this is how i view it as well as a pansexual person, although I prefer to word it more along the lines of gender isn't a factor, rather than despite gender, but thats just a nitpick lol.

@IamThat00

3 жыл бұрын

@@TehTeh911 You are right about it. I should have worded it better.

@CenturianTale_Halo

3 жыл бұрын

@@IamThat00 bi was never an umbrella

@CenturianTale_Halo

3 жыл бұрын

@@IamThat00 bisexuals don't always take gender into account, I know a few of them who are like me, having no preference

discourse online: well, according to THIS, you can't be THIS bi/pan/omni irl: vibing together and having a good time

@foxesofautumn

2 жыл бұрын

This please! I wish there was no discourse. Just embrace the label that suits. Our enemy isn’t each other. It’s the people who don’t want us to take up space

@basilsfakejordans

2 жыл бұрын

Can confirm. Me and some of my friends decided we're the bi+ squad.

@anyundnichttorben4409

2 жыл бұрын

as a pansexual whos best friends are an omnisexual and a bisexual, i can confirm this is very true

@bigpooper4156

2 жыл бұрын

Most people I know choose which one they identify with because they like the flag colors or they just think the word sounds cooler

@basilsfakejordans

2 жыл бұрын

@@bigpooper4156 the colour thing confuses me. I get why you might think a word speaks to you more, or that your definition matches you more, but flag colour just seems stupid. I like purple more than yellow but im still pan. I dont get it.

When I first came out in middle school around 2010, I knew I was bisexual. When I made a tumblr account and ran into the idea of pansexuality, distinguished from bisexuality as "bi means cis men and women, pan includes everyone!", I felt disgusted by bisexuality. I immediately switched labels because I have no gender exceptions to my attraction. A few years later, I started getting into the history of the gay rights movement in the US. I saw beautiful images and narratives of gorgeous stubborn bisexuals charging their way into gay activism when biphobia desperately tried to keep them out. I saw solidarity between gay and bi men, between lesbians and bi women. I saw a place in 20th century gay liberation that explicitly included and embraced trans identities--bisexual activism. We bonded over times when neither the gays nor the straights wanted either of us. I felt the little pan flag in my heart tatter and tear away. Suddenly it felt shallow; it had no tethers to those who came before the way bisexuality does. Suddenly, a bright, vivid, bisexual sunrise burst through my heart, propelled by the love and defiance of bisexual community ancestors. I feel for people who have a bad taste in their mouth about bisexuality because of biphobic and transphobic lies like that. I was like that, too. Sorry if this is sappy or incoherent but I took an edible and started watching this as it's kicking in so I feel all poetic and shit.

@thomashall8701

10 ай бұрын

You felt disgusted by bisexuality just because you thought it meant attraction to cis men and women? It sounds like you're a biphobe. It's okay to be attracted to cis men and women. Cis men are hot. Cis women are hot.

@Shepfax

10 ай бұрын

@@thomashall8701 Specifically I thought it meant *only* attraction to cis people, which was not accurate to how I felt in terms of attraction. I was indeed a biphobe at the time because I was misled by biphobes about the nature of the identity. I know better now.

@thomashall8701

7 ай бұрын

​@@ShepfaxOkay but there's a difference between "This isn't what I am" and being disgusted. Is there something disgusting about being attracted to only cis men and cis women? It's like saying "I used to be a homophobe because I thought a man fucking another man is disgusting. Now I'm not a homophobe any more because I know that homosexuality isn't about men fucking each other, that's just made up by homophobes. 😊" The issue is you still think two men fucking is disgusting, which makes you a homophobe. How do you not see the issue with what you're saying?

@Shepfax

7 ай бұрын

Yes, I do think it's weird and obsessive to describe your sexuality as "anyone but trans people". I'm trans. The vast majority of people I meet do not know that about me. If one of them hypothetically found me attractive, then immediately stopped when they found out I was trans, that makes me feel repulsed by them. Does that make sense?

@Shepfax

7 ай бұрын

@@thomashall8701 Also what the fuck are you waffling about in the analogy you made about gay sexuality? Do you think your bisexuality is The Real Bisexuality and mine is something else?

I saw a cool meme once that was like "there's a lot of overlap between these groups but the distinction for some is meaningful" and that sums up the topic pretty well I think.

@katharineeavan9705

3 жыл бұрын

I think that's great when those people are only applying those meanings to themselves and how they identify. The Problems come in when they start to enforce those distinctions on other people. I'm not about to be lectured to about my own sexuality because someone else finds their own label to be more meaningful

@jackiespades9076

3 жыл бұрын

what distinction is there tho. hard mode: cant be transphobic or biphobic

@LeadHerring

3 жыл бұрын

@@jackiespades9076 I think the post was getting at that it feels right to identify as one rather than the other for some people. This resonates with me in that it is probably just as accurate to call me Pan but I still only really consider myself Bi. Others don't care and identify as both interchangably, while others still find that Pan feels right to them and feel odd calling themselves Bi (hopefully not for douchey reasons).

@jackiespades9076

3 жыл бұрын

@@LeadHerring if a woman who exclusively liked other women in a way that was indistinguishable from that of lesbians but said she didn't feel comfortable calling herself a lesbian and made up a new term, what would we say about that 🤔 I'd just assume she had some kind of hangup about The L Word due to the stigma which is super common among lgbt folks. Especially when the new labels are leading people to view people who use the old ones as promiscuous, shallow, apolitical, transphobic, impure, exclusive, etcetcetc when they're not. The shit pansexuals say to differentiate themselves from bisexuality always sounds so much like shit straight biphobes and christian purity culture people said to me growing up. It's uncanny

@LeadHerring

3 жыл бұрын

@@jackiespades9076 I wrote a post but then accidentally closed the box, so let me see if I can reconstruct what I was trying to say. I think there are probably dodgy implications from how the term came about, but I feel like the video's take that they are like two different metrics for measuring the same thing is pretty true. I'm happy for people to identify as Pan so long as they aren't shitting on Bi people. I was at the Mardi Gras parade on the weekend and the Bi parts of the parade also occasionally waved Pan flags. T Given that they weren't distancing themselves from this part of the parade and clamoring for their own section, I would assume that they did not think so lowly of them. Remember that the shit fights that happen online are not always representative of how people understand themselves in real life.

as a bisexual I have always said that I like my gender and not my gender. it's easy for everyone to understand and is inclusive

@chelseacheckington7421

2 жыл бұрын

While people say that sexuality and gender do not depend on one another, I find that my identifying as pan rather than bi is inextricably tied to my being an agender nonbinary person. I don't feel comfortable with a word that feels so tied to the concept of sex and gender. I don't consider gender at all when I'm attracted to someone, because gender is a nebulous concept to me. I don't like my gender plus other genders. I don't even relate to the idea of gender. I just like hot people.

@Jinxed129

2 жыл бұрын

@@pinksparklingbubblegum2660 The fact that you thought that was transphobic, is exactly the problem. Same sex attraction is exactly that. The narrative that is being forced on us today that homosexuals must engage in heterosexual sex to include people in something that is defined as exclusionary. People can identify as whatever the hell they want, all the more power to them. Live your best life, be happy in who you are. But the fact still stands that sex is immutable. No matter what gender you identify as you are still either male or female. The amount of abuse, and shaming, and attacks the gay community are facing for not wanting relationships with those of the opposite sex are quite frankly disgusting. I saw a comment made to a lesbian woman the other day saying ‘you just haven’t had the right dick yet’. I know a woman who was raped, because she was penis repulsed and the person held her down and told her that she would take it because it was a lady dick and it is transphobic if she didn’t. She didn’t speak to them again and the transgender woman told the people that she knew that she was transphobic and was ostracised by all of her friends. I am all for trans people living their truth and being one with who they are, but I absolutely will not stand the modern day conversion therapy the ideology behind it is pushing.

@Jinxed129

2 жыл бұрын

@@pinksparklingbubblegum2660 No worries, I’m happy you listened. That’s pretty rare to come across these days. And it is definitely a quality I respect in people. I think the confusion surrounding the matter is that people do think sex and gender are interchangeable, when in actual fact, they are not. As I said, sex is immutable, gender is a social construct and can be interpreted in many different ways. Sexuality is based on sex and same sex attraction. You can be a man, but still be female or you can be a woman, but still be male.

@aarondubourg3706

2 жыл бұрын

Oh great! That must mean I as an Asexual person must be attracted to ppl without sex! Wow! A question tho, what about Homoromantic or Biromantic etc ppl? Romantic isn't sex or gender after all. And since you are so so very, extraordinarily smart and clever, you surely must have the answer to this query. How could you not?

@44Anna.lou44

2 жыл бұрын

@@aarondubourg3706 was that directed to me? I cant speak on any other language or personal preferences, just mine. I'm not sure what I said that might have hurt you, but it was inadvertent. Everyone else who responded in this thread has also been respectful and spoken to their personal understandings, so I guess I'm just confused about the hostility.

The insistance than pan is seperate from bi also has connotations of slut-shaming, because it's often explained as "Oh my type of love is more ethereal, more about the person, not their bits." As if bisexuality means attraction to disembodied parts. It's obnoxious because its always framed as an inclusive and positive statement, when really it's an exclusive and negative one that makes a lot of offensive presumptions about other people.

@prioritalpanic629

Жыл бұрын

God, I've always hated people assuming pan is "woke" bisexuality. And I identify as pan myself. Like no it's not any better or "hearts over parts"(but iirc "hearts over parts" was originally used in bi positive spaces to fight the assumption of promiscuity and lack of faithfulness. Very ironic.) I become extremely livid when people imply "pan is better than bi" when we should be happy over our shared experiences.

@millaaaaa

Жыл бұрын

i mean not really it’s more like “they are so pretttty!! i don’t know what their gender is but i’m obsessed “ or like “you’re so cool what are your pronouns?” like i can just like someone and nothing changes when i find out their gender.

@millaaaaa

Жыл бұрын

@@prioritalpanic629 fr

@TheLostGirl21

9 ай бұрын

The problem, for me, is that insisting that pansexuals are bisexuals because they can have sex with people of all gender identities is basically the equivalent of saying that sex-positive asexuals that enjoy having sex with people of all gender identities, despite not feeling sexually attracted to them, are in fact bisexuals. It doesn't really work that way. Asexuals aren't sexually aroused by their partners. They can enjoy having sex with a partner, though, because it's essentially like masturbating alongside someone else and/or masturbating each other. You don't need to be sexually attracted to your hand to use it to pleasure yourself. And you don't need to be sexually attracted to another person to be comfortable with having them giving you pleasure and/or with giving them pleasure yourself, either. You can be fully asexual, yet still enjoy sex with a significant other (friend, romantic partner, etc.), while having absolutely zero sexual desire towards them. So, why am I drawing the comparison with pansexuality? As a pansexual, I don't find the idea of having sex with a man, a woman, or a person of any other gender identity sexually exciting either. I have no idea what heterosexual or homosexual desires are supposed to feel like. I sexually desire people on a case by case scenario based on the way they look, the way they think, their personality, their value, if I perceive them as giving off a "geek vibe" (I'm exclusively sexually attracted to people that I perceive as tending to get really passionately get into certain fields of interest, and/or animatedly talk for hours about them)... But I'm definitely as freaking "shallow" as any heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual out there when it comes to being sexually attracted to a person based on how good they look (among other characteristics), though. Gender isn't restricted to physical appearance, but also expressed through people's personalities, mentalities, values, etc. So the whole "If you don't care about gender, the only thing that matters is their personality" never made the slightest bit of sense to me. A personality has a gender the same way a body does. Isn't that what gender theory is all about? People feeling like gender is a part of their own personal identity that's been internalized? So, you could care less about genitalia (people's "bits"), yet still be into personalities that are typically socially perceived as feminine, and still be bisexual because you'd find feminine personalities sexually attractive! Similarly, a bubble butt doesn't need to be perceived as feminine, masculine, or anywhere in between or outside the binary for me to appreciate the way it looks! I really, really could care less about the gender of a partner's physical looks in terms of how I experience sexual attraction. I have no appreciation of it. I care about gender as part of people's identities and respect the way they perceive themselves. My partner is a man, and I'm glad he's comfortable with being a man. I call him "he", and we're good. He's also got blue eyes, and I'm down with any eye color, really, too! But I'm not "sexually attracted to blue eyes"! It's a part of a whole that I find "hot"; but he could be a woman or have brown eyes and it wouldn't change a thing. Actually, I might be bothered by the eyes color change, because those piercing blue eyes are the first thing that I connected with / saw when I first met him (I literally had a moment where I forgot to breathe while looking in those eyes). So, I'd rather he became a woman (either transitioned or magically woke up in a woman's body), than have him start wearing contacts to change his eyes color on a regular basis. It wouldn't be a deal breaker, but let's say that I find the color of his eyes more sexually arousing than the fact that he's a man, if I'm being honest. Usually, I really don't care about eyes color, though, but his are something special. I define myself as being sexually attracted to people regardless of gender because I don't emotionally, sexually, mentally, etc. connect with a sexual partner's gender. I haven't even internalized being a woman as part of my own identity. I call myself a woman because that's how other people see me and I'm good with that. It's how I externally look according to others, not a part of who I am. The idea of being in bed with a man, a woman, or a non-binary partner arouses no positive nor negative emotion in me, either. "Do you like men?" Look. That's irrelevant to my sexuality. It doesn't matter. As long as a person's hot (and I really trust them / feel emotionally intimate with them, because I'm also demi), they're hot! If I'm sexually into someone, I'm sexually into someone. I don't see how them being a woman, man, or anything else has anything to do with my own sexuality, and how it's supposed to be related to why I'm sexually into them. "Sexual orientation is about who you want to sleep with, now how you're attracted to them". Fine! Who I want to have sex with are geeks. I'm geeksexual. There you go. Exclusively geeksexual. Why insist on using gender to describe sexual orientation when not everyone instinctively feels anything in the presence of what they perceive as male, female, or an absence or blend of those energies? I have no "sexual orientation" in the classical sense. I grew up being extremely confused, because I couldn't figure out what gender I liked and was lead to believe that it was "instinctively natural" for humans to want to find themselves a woman or man to mate (and/or be in a relationship) with. Whereas I just wanted a geek. Any hair color or gender would do. But I needed a geek.

I’m a non-binary bisexual with a non-binary fiancé, I guess It would be possible to describe myself with mogai terms but honestly I find microlabels to be exhausting. Its much easier to go with lgbt labels for when it’s needed, otherwise, in daily life I just refer to my gender as « whatever » and my sexuality as « whoever ».

After spending a long time struggling with the fact that I'm both bi and trans, being forced to sit on it for decades, and then when I started to finally come out it was really weird to find many people online telling me that I have internalized transphobia because I identify as bi, or that I have to change my label since I had an attraction to a genderfluid person I interacted with online. I find the whole bi-pan discourse weird and very divisive.

@neoqwerty

3 жыл бұрын

As a trans guy who's pan (the OG pan that's the non-ace brother of demisexuality, where personality is the main criteria, not this weird "gender-blind-and-being-bi-is-transphobic" neo-pan)? Those idiots can go screw themselves in the same place they pulled their moral high horses from. Being bi doesn't invalidate you being trans, being trans doesn't mean you being bi is transphobic, and having ONE experience where you meander slightly from your usual attraction IS actually normal. Human attraction isn't gorilla glued to one spot forever and ever until the heat death of the universe.

@DrayseSchneider

3 жыл бұрын

@@neoqwerty I don't even feel that I've "meandered" necessarily in my attraction as bisexuality, as described by LGBTQ2S+ bi activitists, for almost 40 years has been the attraction to those of my gender, those not my gender, regardless of gender. But indeed, a one-time deviation does not redefine one's whole attraction, it just means human sexuality is a very complex thing. Labels matter for community and solidarity, but they're not definitions they're descriptions.

@andrewmalinowski6673

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThrottleKitty Having only recently discovered my gender and sexual identity I think the best way to think of the bi/pan issue is as Luxander stated in their video about "pan/poly/bi/omni" and defined them as all being essentially the same but defined differently based on personal preference. As a (not fully out) demipansexual transgender individual I find the overlap between trans and non-binary interesting, but I dislike the way people like Natalie Wynn can be harassed because of their different opinions because others don't agree with their ideas or viewpoints

@xBrii333x

3 жыл бұрын

I also find the discourse weird and divisive, and quite frankly, confusing. As an autistic person with a tenuous grasp on societal labels, it has made labeling myself for other's comfort a necessary but difficult situation. As I get older and care less about masking and blending in, I've just given up. I'm queer. If someone asks me for a more specific label, I'll use pansexual or bisexual, depending on the context and if I think they'll know what pansexual means or not. (I live in a fairly small town and a lot of people here don't know what that means.) Gender is extra confusing for me. I'm nonbinary, but don't have a pronoun preference- I'd rather people just assign to me what they're most comfortable with and get it over with so I don't have to deal with it. But some people online think that's problematic. It's just such a mess.

@billbuttlicker1248

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThrottleKitty fun fact bisexuals actually DO make up the largest portion of the community by quite a lot, but we’re also the most likely to stay closeted

also I think it’s worth talking about how many of these so called distinctions between pan and bi (and omni and etc) are based solely on the etymological meaning of “bi” as a prefix, over anything else. why is it that people criticize and pick apart the term bisexual and refuse to acknowledge that language can change to adapt peoples usage. why bi=2 is frequently touted but nobody tries to say that you can’t be a lesbian unless you’re from the island of Lesbos or how september is actually the 7th month because sept means 7. (it’s biphobia)

@skymin963

3 жыл бұрын

also just wanted to add that this video is great and that the analogies of both bi = chips and the lgbt and the mogai system in terms of measurement ala metric and imperial are clear and help to understand why people choose different terms for different uses. love ur videos and tumblr

@TheKarret

3 жыл бұрын

september, october, november and december all have roots that mean respectively 7, 8, 9 , 10; they got changed to 2 months later than they should be because at some point people added two more months [January and February I believe it was]... now - why they didn't throw those months in AFTER december... that's a fucking mystery to me. Bunch of dumb shits, if you ask me. lmao. Maybe Janus was the inspiration for January and the people of the time wanted to signify how important that deity was to them, so they put his month as the first one??? just throwing out a lil info there.

@paconotaco

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheKarret I had been taught that added months were July and August, named from Julius and Augustus Caesar. I might be wrong on that tho.

@lookitsanotherpig9708

3 жыл бұрын

Dude that’s exactly what I thought. Bi=2 pan=all! It’s weird- I honestly prefer G&M when it comes to explaining myself (gender and/or sexual minority)

@TheKarret

3 жыл бұрын

@@paconotaco AH! Maybe it was them... either way, yeah, it was super dumb of them to just throw those names in the middle there, but then not adjust the order so that the last 4 months would make sense. @_@

I think some of the disagreement also comes from biphobia. It is a much older term and because of that there has been time to develop negative stereotypes around bi people, and it seems that some are trying to dodge the term bisexual because they may have bought into some of those stereotypes/want to avoid being seen that way by others

@robinlombard6744

Жыл бұрын

i feel bad for them when they realise the poor treatment, from inside and outside the community, is based on the orientation and not so much the label. one cannot magically avoid that by using another term

As a bi/pan person I remember at the height of Tumblr MOGAI vs LGBT discourse being told I could not be bi and pan at the same time, and that I had to pick one. The irony in how bi/pan-phobic that kind of a statement is.

@terriemoulton1084

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly!

@prioritalpanic629

Жыл бұрын

Oh god, I hate mogai vs lgbt discourse. Like who cares what lables we use over the others just be gay and do crime in peace.

I'm Pansexual and my Mom's Bisexual, we've come to the understand that effectively we are attracted to people in similar ways but given that I learned the word pansexual at the same time as Bisexual and Pan was just the one the spoke to me. I think that people should identify how ever makes them comfortable. Both can exist at the same time.

@gabibalbino150

3 жыл бұрын

Even if they have pretty much "the same meaning"!

@geekishly

3 жыл бұрын

@@gabibalbino150 I guess we should throw out a bunch of words that have "pretty much the same meaning" as another word. throw out yummy because delicious already exists. there's room for both words and all their other synonyms.

@gabibalbino150

3 жыл бұрын

@@geekishly yes??

@geekishly

3 жыл бұрын

@@gabibalbino150 I'm sorry, I saw your ! as a ? when I replied, so I thought you were questioning it as opposed to agreeing. my bad!

@lotusfae

3 жыл бұрын

This is how I feel about it. The term "pansexual" just resonated with me, though I still call myself both pan and bi interchangeably. I mean, when you try to label sections of a spectrum, there are gonna be grey areas, lmao!

Yes! The meme I always see going around with like bi, pan, omni, and poly flags that says "these broadly overlap but their distinction is important to some people, and that is OK" is always what this sort of "debate" brings up. I used to use the term pan when I was younger but I am not equally attracted to people of all genders and so I've shifted back to using bi because it fits me more, honestly. (I don't date men, for example, which doesn't feel that pan) Also when people said "bi is transphobic" it's like, have you not met all of the bi trans people I know (including me). It's the same discourse I often see floating round the community online which I ignore for the most part because, who can have a nuanced discussion on twitter? Love bisexual is chips tho, I am chip.

@taylorbritt499

3 жыл бұрын

I identify as pan bc the pan "motto" i always hear is "hearts not parts" and i feel that sums up my sexual preferences quite well - if you're a good person with a good personality, i really don't care what's in your pants. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Anyway i brought this up because you mentioned you no longer identify as pan bc of not liking each gender "equally" but for me, personally, gender has never been a part of the equation.

@muccycloud

3 жыл бұрын

@@taylorbritt499 yeah I get that! I used to feel similarly but by not equally attracted I mean I don't date men "seriously" and I'm not really romantically attracted to them anymore. So in that way pan doesn't really fit men, the way I interact with people of different genders romantically is very different. Does that make sense?

@sriracha_sauce

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for this comment it makes me feel so valid and comfy

@muccycloud

3 жыл бұрын

@@handsomerat5926 yeah I've seen a bit of that floating about too! All rubbish to me, different terms sit better with different people and that's cool 💕

@muccycloud

3 жыл бұрын

@@sriracha_sauce im glad!

I came out as bisexual in 2010 and it was a super annoying time to try and feel at home in my identity. I knew almost no other bisexual men in real life so I found most of my community online. For the next few years I was often invalidated by young pansexuals around my age who would try to argue with me and define my bisexuality for me as something very binary and trans-exclusive, which it never was. Back around 2012 I would watch your videos and I found them super validating and reassuring. I was encouraged to learn more about bisexual history and take pride in it. It's nice to stumble across your channel again. Thanks to the work of bi activists and content creators, I haven't run across a pansexual online who's tried to invalidate my identity in a long time. The mid-2010s felt like a turning point with lots of people sharing and being educated about bisexual history on tumblr and twitter and facebook memes. It's doing great work for bi/pan solidarity and I'm glad to not have to constantly feel on edge and like I need to defend my choice of the label bisexual anymore. It's a better world.

@annabethpowell3199

2 жыл бұрын

I identified with the word pansexual from the moment I heard it’s definition (luckily the real one, not the bi vs pan one) and I remember a year or two later stumbling upon the bi vs pan definition and being really confused. I had never thought of my identity as a whole different community or that bi was transphobic. My identity is simply a slightly more specific version of being bi, and that has always been the truth. But hearing the discourse around the two terms made me feel as though my identity was being called stupid and unnecessary. I don’t understand why we can’t all just be respectful and accept everyone. I’m so sorry you had to feel wrong in your identity because of gate-keepers and MOGAI. We should never do that to others, that’s exactly what we’re all fighting against!

Bisexuality is chips, indeed! By the time I made my peace with the word bisexual, I've had to hear all these whippersnappers tell me what it means, and I'm just like "I've been out longer than you've been alive, my 'bisexuality' is your 'pansexuality', and if you don't see that you can get off my damn lawn."

@saanrio

3 жыл бұрын

THIS

@beth7935

3 жыл бұрын

SO this!

@jadesidhe2634

3 жыл бұрын

Get off my damn lawn! Lol. Exactly, I've been out since 1996. The big controversy for bisexuals the was, "you're either gay, straight or lying"

@beth7935

3 жыл бұрын

@@jadesidhe2634 Yeah, they need to stop explaining their sexuality by saying things about bi people that just aren't true. Like, choose whatever label you want, but don't you DARE tell me what my own goddamn sexuality means! Especially not when I figured it out before you were born! Find an _actual_ difference, or concede that bi people don't actually agree with the "differences" you list.

@passerbi1825

2 жыл бұрын

I absolutely love this comment

I’m functionally very similar to pansexual. But I call myself bisexual because I’m just attached to the word and the colors of the flag. My gf didn’t want a label for the longest time, saying pansexual didn’t quite feel right to her even if it seemed to fit on the surface. She found omnisexual and instantly loved it. It’s a shame people want to pit everyone in the multisexual umbrella against each other when we simply could just be vibing

I am Queer (Cis, Bisexual) and I feel similarly in my view. I grew up in a conservative, rural environment that traumatized me, distorted my view of myself and the Queer community, and vilified me. When I moved to the city for college, and came out to that community, I was verbally abused for stating that I am bisexual. And because people within our community accused me of not being attracted to "any other gender identities other than cis male and cis female"... To get policed in a similar way from the community that I thought would welcome me with open arms when I left my rural hometown and "didn't know any better" was, in itself, traumatizing. I am attracted to folks of all gender identities, but like to validate/affirm people's identities as a rule of thumb, regardless of how this person exists in the world, their experiences, etc. Being "gender blind", imo, is not validating to a majority of the population (including the Queer community). It seems transphobic, overall. I am so very thankful for this video and analysis. It was very validating. It is entirely confusing and we should just revolve around AFFIRMING PEOPLE'S LIVED EXPERIENCES imo.

@magpielvira

3 жыл бұрын

i agree that the whole “gender blindness” is not actually affirming. everybody has a unique relationship with their gender & presentation, and those should be cared about if the person themself is cared about! i’m a non-binary but largely feminine lesbian, and i’m dating a cis masculine lesbian. if someone wanted to date us who described themself as gender-blind, it’d feel negligent toward both our internal selves, and our material and lived experiences as trans and gender non-conforming people

@abigailbargdill3257

3 жыл бұрын

I've identified as pansexual since I was 14, but never once have I considered myself "gender blind" and have frankly never heard of the term. I find it weird when people fight over the specifics of the words, when language is just so fluid. The way I've always seen the bi/pan debate is that it's simply whatever word someone feels most comfortable with, and like they can identify with. And if I'm dating a trans man, I'm experiencing my attraction to him as a man. If I'm dating a non-binary person, I am attracted to them as a non-binary person. Dating a woman? I'm attracted to her as a woman. The gender of my partner I've found does influence my experience in the relationship. Although I must say, over the past two years or so, I've really come to love the word queer for myself, because it's vague enough to define me no matter how my preferences fluctuates, and can encompass my gender expression as a femme person who also likes to wear men's boxers and cologne

@megantaylor2871

3 жыл бұрын

Oh yeah I feel this. It has been VERY hard for me to come to terms with being ANY flavor of queer, let alone know which one I am. For one, I’m on the ace spectrum so sexual attraction is kinda iffy for me, but also I didn’t figure out that my sexual/romantic attraction is broad and varied until like two years ago. I am a baby gay. Please be gentle with me. I love you.

@heatheryoung2912

3 жыл бұрын

@@megantaylor2871 I'm with you on this one! As a demusexual person, I feel more like genders, body parts, and presentation are not deal breakers, and some people are just prettier than others, but no group of people just has me that attracted in general. I settled on queer as a label for myself because I don't know that I'd ever be decisive enough to pick something more specific.

@neoqwerty

3 жыл бұрын

@@megantaylor2871 As a somewhat older gay rainbow: I thought I was ace for most of my teen years (though I was possibly just really oblivious), then I realized I liked girls but theoretically I was more in it for the personality, then about ten years ago a crush on a guy from a rock band smacked me in the face and I realized I was just pickier with dudes than ladies, and about 6 years ago I took shaky baby steps toward enby, and a year ago I finally ended up realizing that all that subconscious screaming following me since puberty over two decades ago was me being a trans, pan guy. We all stumble drunkenly through our identities, and sometimes we take a break in a spot that's comfy enough to recharge. And it's all okay. Also, I'm proud of you for being willing to stumble around and trying your best to find yourself, and I love you too, stranger I met in youtube comments.

the notion that bisexuality excludes enbys makes me reflect on how people treat it as a third gender, why doesn't this conversation ever come up when discussing straights and gays who date enbys?

@robinlombard6744

Жыл бұрын

bc the goal is biphobia. that kind of comments isnt genuinely meant to welcome and affirm nonbinary people.

@cheskaarana6097

Жыл бұрын

Right? The bi flag literally shows the non-binary symbollism.

@elainelouve

Жыл бұрын

Exactly!!! This is litterally my pet peeve as a nonbinary person who has been with a straight man and a lesbian.

The pan v bi debate seemed to come almost out of nowhere, with loudest voice early on being teenagers who got most their info online, not lived experience. I sometimes wonder how authentic the origins of this argument really were or was it a tactic of divide and conquer (which has been and continues to be very effective against so many minority groups)?

I don't know how I haven't encountered "MOGAI" before when I have looked up literally every other label you mention here (multiple times). I had noticed there was more of a persona focus to them and not so much community building, but I had thought it had to do more with an age divide. But a different system entirely also makes sense. My feeling has been it's great to have so many ways to explain if someone's looking for validation on their particulars, but there is So. Much. Policing. I did witness a lesbian being told to change her label to bisexual to prove she was willing to date transwomen or label herself "phallophobic"--which was gross and awful. And that was my introduction to "pansexuality" too. Change your label to prove you're not a transphobe. And pointing out all the problems with that didn't matter; it got straight up ubiquitous. I don't get this "attracted to only these genders" thing. Like...gender is really personal. You can't tell someone's gender just by looking at them. Do you get unattracted when you find out you guessed their gender wrong? Wouldn't THAT be transphobic? Seems to me anyone could be attracted to a non-binary person, and you don't need a special orientation label for that.

@emilyf9288

3 жыл бұрын

i agree, mogai can be very toxic at times. i understand people wanting to find identity and have a flag for their exact gender identity/sexual orientation down to the smallest of feelings (if that’s what makes them feel comfortable), however the policing that goes on in mogai circles is extremely hurtful to the lgbt+ community

@starseeker6102

3 жыл бұрын

the person telling the lesbian to change her label, separating trans women as if they were a completely different gender, is the transphobic one there what's wrong with those people

@Jerec359

3 жыл бұрын

You said that so well. Totally agree

@slithra227

3 жыл бұрын

That...sounds a lot more like a terf interaction than a mogai interaction. Pretty creepy how that stuff has trickled down without anyone noticing

@Nellywellum

3 жыл бұрын

I personally am a bi person who is attracted to trans people the same as anyone else. My ex-fiancee is a wonderful trans man and my closest friend. Buuut I totally understand why some people might be uncomfortable dating a pre-op trans person. Sexual preference isn't voluntary. I don't think that is inherently transphobic either, as long as they aren't an ass about it. Life is messy. Find love, give love, try not to judge people.

i'm pan, my partner is bi. we despise the discourse... its so infuriating, especially because your experience with sexuality is your own! it is personal, so of course it differs from others! anyone can express themselves differently and we, queers, as a community shouldn't look at the labels that much in my opinion ..

@passerbi1825

2 жыл бұрын

Okay so if you don't care much about labels, why did you choose that one instead of bisexual, which has already existed for much longer and still describes your sexuality?

@mariebunn45

2 жыл бұрын

@@passerbi1825 because people can use whatever they want. thats like asking someone why they used the word good instead of fantastic. they mean similar things but have certain distinctions in certain contexts. its not hard. if you dont want pansexual people to insinuate that your sexuality is transphobic then dont demonize them either.

@passerbi1825

2 жыл бұрын

@@mariebunn45 There's not a single distinction between them. Pansexuality was born off of biphobia, period.

@passerbi1825

2 жыл бұрын

@@mariebunn45 Besides, you don't "choose" your sexuality. That isn't how sexuality works.

@hungrybeakstudios472

2 жыл бұрын

@@passerbi1825 but you do choose what you identify with. Only you know what you're most comfortable with

I always identified as bi. When my gf came out as trans, I still considered myself bi. Bi, to me, denotes a spectrum with two ends, and a preference for everything within that spectrum

Thank you for making this. I'm 25 and I've identified as bisexual since I was 13 and first realized I had a crush on my female friend. I have been told by people who have just realized they are not straight- that bisexual means that I am not attracted to trans people which is absolutely not true. I am attracted to all people, I just prefer femme people. I find this very invalidating and kind of transphobic of people to say bi people don't like trans people....

@FatimaAlkinani-rw3of

Жыл бұрын

Omg it’s the same for me I am bisexual and like all people but it’s the opposite because I have a slight preference for masculine people. And I also remember identifying as pan because I liked everybody including trans men and women. But decided to go by bisexual because that’s what fits me the most and I learned that bisexual is not trans exclusive (trans men and women are just men and women). And it’s what gives me the most comfort and plus I like the bi colors more than the pan colors

Literally I show some bi-pride on twitter a while back and a pansexual person replies to me that I can't be bi and that pan is better and I'm like: ????? Leave me alone????

@nukiradio

3 жыл бұрын

"Sorry, can't be straight, gay is better"

@nyangatagaming903

3 жыл бұрын

You can be bi. And I can be pan. It's ok!

@alizetvargas

2 жыл бұрын

That's the kind of nonsense that makes me go NO-TWITTER

@theridley6451

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I've had the same but opposite. I've also had MULTIPLE bisexual people tell me I was a disgusting freak of nature for being trans. I don't hold it against all bisexual people though. I'm not one to generalize an entire group based on the actions of loud individuals.

@Nakia11798

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry, can't be bi, that's "transphobic" according to like 1/3 of "pansexuals"

I've identified as both bi and pan in a multitude of times between 14-20, deadass the reason I mainly chose pan as an identity was because the colors made me feel happy and the bi flag was just really dark and moody feeling. Similar to how I chose my nfl team by looking at mascots (Jacksonville Jaguars).

@niko_kneecaps3644

3 жыл бұрын

valid argument. im pan, and the flag is so much better imo.

@asthore8195

3 жыл бұрын

same lol ngl.

@whatisthis1958

3 жыл бұрын

The bi flag won me over purely cos it has purple in it lmao

@victoriat8922

3 жыл бұрын

I'm bi/omni (I consider bi an an umbrella and omni as my more specific label and identify with both) because they both fit me... of course... but I'd be lying if I said I didn't also just like the cool color schemes better. (Btw, if you've never seen the omni flag go look it up, it's gorgeous)

@DravenUrei

3 жыл бұрын

Ngl, I chose Bi because ~ P U R P L E ~

it's so strange how people police others' identities when each identity is up to the individual on how they define it. if someone is pansexual, they're pansexual. if someone is bisexual, they're bisexual. even if they (the individuals) have the same definition of their attraction, it's up to them on which term they identify with and feel. folks need to stop pitting us against each other & start banding together the way we're supposed to, to love in our own ways and provide support. thank you for making this video to bring informative light to these situations!💜

the discourse on this is so weird to me. i had someone tell me i am pansexual, then accuse me of invalidating their sexuality by saying i personally think gender plays too big a part in my attraction for pansexual to be the right label. they identify as pan despite having a preference, and i didn't even question them on it. just said my reason for still using bisexual. i am still baffled by that interaction. they invalidated my sexuality and tried to label me, then accused me of doing that to them lmao

“There are trans women with a Disney+ account who will share her password with you”

@esobelisk3110

3 жыл бұрын

I’m exclusively attracted to people who share their Disney+ password with me

@PrincessNinja007

2 жыл бұрын

The new binary is Disney+ and Netflix. I'm a Netflix seeking a Disney+. When I meet new couples I ask "So who pays for BNHA and who pays for Hamilton?"

@tatesmcsnates4384

2 жыл бұрын

@@PrincessNinja007 what does it make me if I provide the hulu password 😭

@cheskaarana6097

Жыл бұрын

Timestamp please?

I have been bi ever since I hit puberty in the 1960s. I am attracted to women, but not all women. To men but not all men. Non binary people, but not all of them and I consider Trans men and trans women as men and women. I don't know why we need to complicate things with so many labels, particularly as most of us change labels as we go through life. 😎

@lemonballs

2 жыл бұрын

1960s?! Wow thats so inspiring as a bi person.

I'm of the "all good faith identities are valid and I will respect them as such" mindset. It's literally so easy. Pick a label you feel comfy with, recognize that older terms have and will continue to be used as umbrella terms, and don't tell other people what they can or can't identify as. I've had a group of bisexuals tell me to "end it" (if you catch my drift) because I said that it's not ok to use a transphobic slur and insert the word "pan", and I've also had to talk down a very hostile, newly out pan kid and make them understand that bisexuality isn't transphobic (they actually did delete their posts and apologize, I'm rather happy about that and I'm glad that me and a couple others, including a bisexual and a lesbian, were able to stop the hostility at its roots). I use both bi and pan along with other words, and if anyone wants to say they're omni or poly or mspec or anything, well then cheers dude let's be gay buddies.

@nathanmccoy9188

2 жыл бұрын

Pansexual is a bad faith identity.

Using the metric vs imperial metaphor is really really helpful, I had a hard time figuring this out without that

I say I'm omnisexual because it makes me feel happy and included-- it's a label that makes me comfortable. But if you experience attraction the exact way I do, and go by bi/pan, I don't-- care?? Labels are just there for categorization, which is near impossible for human beings. It doesn't matter if a label makes you happy and is what you go by even if it doesn't exactly fit the definition. Who cares??? Just like who you like, and if you want a label, have one.

@lavenderturtle3759

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly! I identify as a lesbian but I am attracted to both women and non binary people. If someone identified as a bisexual women but was only attracted to women and non binary people, I wouldn’t go all, “Well then you’re probably just a lesbian in denial” on her! No! Labels exist for the person to make sense of their attraction so who am I to try and tell them what they are allowed to identify as? Same thing for pan/poly/omni/bisexual. It really doesn’t matter as long as you feel comfortable with the one you choose.

@ninoninononinoni8795

3 жыл бұрын

No, labels are also there for political representation.

@roboterror6366

3 жыл бұрын

@@ninoninononinoni8795 welp, i now identify as shinsexual and i want a shinsexual senator to represent me As shinsexualism refers to people who are Shin Second Order and i am the only one to fit that category, shall i accept my new job as senator in every single country that calls itself democratic And if they are monarchies i would happily accept being a count Edit: im not making fun of anyone, dont interpret MY FLAG as a parody as that would extremely oppress everyone in my gender, aka me.

@ninoninononinoni8795

3 жыл бұрын

@@roboterror6366 are you fucking stupid

@roboterror6366

3 жыл бұрын

@@ninoninononinoni8795 thats discrimination, i did not do anything to anyone, like literally, why can't people just let other people be happy with their own flags? But its ok i'm not gonna force you into accepting this, this is a society of shinphobics after all, disgusting 😒

very informative, and i love the way you break down certain concepts (like bisexual is chips lol), thank you!

@ORABARBANEL

3 жыл бұрын

Iyyu@@Alina_Schmidt nand

@gameywarrior777

3 жыл бұрын

@@Alina_Schmidt hahah I dunno if you wanted a serious answer but in American English “fries” are the long skinny fried potatoes and “chips” are the flat thin crunchy potatoes Not completely sure about British English but I think “chips” are the long skinny fried potatoes and “crisps” are the flat thin crunchy potatoes

@LmaoMoni

3 жыл бұрын

Eat hot chip and lie?

I use both bisexual and pansexual labels interchangeably and I’m trans, bisexual doesn’t exclude anyone :)

I use bisexual. I tried on pansexual for a year or so because I was afraid people would think me transphobic but it didn't feel right. I'm not genderblind and typically prefer masculine presenting people but I love my hyper fem and andro peeps too! One of the things that frustrates me is that just because I can acknowledge someone's gender or even their sex doesn't mean ill care any less for them

When people ask about my sexuality, I use bi and pan interchangeably honestly, sometimes i just say queer, or "I can love any gender". But I like the pansexual flag the most because it has all my favorite colors, so I tend to use that term more than the other options for that reason

@acatwiththumbs4819

3 жыл бұрын

I am so glad I'm not the only one to feel pulled to interchangeably use terms...and prefer the pan flag!

@fghgl

2 жыл бұрын

Nice

@beek7770

Жыл бұрын

very late to the party but i identify as bi even tho i think the flag looks ugly LOL the pan flag has all my favorite colors too so sometimes i joke that i wish i identified as pan. i think the terms are synonymous tho! bi just clicks with me, it was the term i heard first and the term i identified with first. it’s something i hold dear :) and that’s why i choose that label!! point is, they’re the same thing to me, and getting into the nitty gritty with morphological analysis is a bother. go vibe!!!

It seems kind of like MOGAI is based around a priori definitions where people invent identities from first principles of identity rather than the a posteriori method of defining gender and sexuality based on the way they actually function on the outside.

"People are people so why should it be, that you and I should get along so awfully." - Depeche Mode

Yeah, I’m pan but I don’t consider myself “gender blind” I just don’t see gender as a factor that plays into my attraction. I see and recognize people’s gender, but that’s not a part of what makes me attracted to them. I also identify as bi as an umbrella term and usually introduce myself as that because people are more familiar with it and I don’t have to explain my identity.

When I was first discovering my own sexuality I was on tumblr and discovered Mogai. I fell for the biphobic/transphobic rhetoric that if you were bi then you weren’t attracted trans people and since I knew that I was definitely attracted to trans ppl I used the pan label for about 2 years. Thankfully I discovered some bi activists on tumblr who were discussing the discourse and realized that view was untrue and harmful. I cringe thinking back to telling ppl I was pan and trying to convince bi ppl they were pan too. To be fair I was 14 - 16, but still... ugh

@sallysoniclover

3 жыл бұрын

i went through the same thing too!! i thought bi people were transphobic and not inclusive but after learning more about bisexuality on tumblr and figuring out im nonbinary, i identify as bisexual and im attracted to any gender :D

@aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa9561

3 жыл бұрын

I had the same experience. I don't think I knew what lgbt was until I was about 13 and learned about it via tumblr, which was full of mogai bs at the time. I'm so glad I finally learned a little actual history lmao

@octobermaskwa3528

2 жыл бұрын

As a pansexual person I couldn't relate because when I was 16 I began using the pansexual label. But I also stopped following the LGBTQ+ community because it felt like it didn't really matter to me. I dated whoever I felt connected to. I never felt woke or special for having that label I never thought of myself as better than anyone when people asked me if I was straight or gay I said it doesn't matter. I'm 23 now and revisiting the LGBTQ+ community and I found out that bisexual people can actually be attracted to anyone regardless of gender identity too and it wasn't a hard thing for me to accept or understand. However I did become confused about being pansexual because nowadays we are so hated on. I'm being accused of transphobia, thinking I'm woke or special or biphobic when I never gave a fuck for the longest time. To each their own was my approach. Not every single pansexual person feels special or woke. Some of us really don't care and are just living our lives.

@PrincessNinja007

2 жыл бұрын

I was like 19, and when I found MOGAI it also felt a bit like "don't call yourself anything unless you fit every bullet point on its hyperspecific definition", as opposed to my LGBT identity which was more "oh people called you a dyke in middle school? You're full of self doubt and feel the need to justify every partnership? Cool story, lemme know if you see a cutie I need to hook you up with". It's just so much easier to say "I'm some kinda gay, probably" and not have to think any deeper about it

@bugabea4059

2 жыл бұрын

this is the same experience i had!!

I was vaguely aware that there was some beef between fervent pan and fervent bi people, but this is deeper than I expected. I (often, not always) use pan because when I tell straight people I'm pan they go 'huh what's that?' and I then have to explain what the word means and take the political stance that nonbinary people are real (which they are). If I tell straight people I'm bi, then in their heads they think 'oh so you can be attracted to both men and women,' and that's where the thinking ends. I don't think the words have different meanings. I'm just playing into straight people's (mis)understanding of the words to communicate with them more effectively, I guess. I'm using pan as a tool to start a conversation about the existence of nonbinary people, so I can know if I'm safe with them. It's easier than directly coming out to them as nonbinary. There's more risk in coming out as enby than there is in coming out as pan.

@vinniekatz9584

3 жыл бұрын

ohhhhh! I didn't even think of this. I've been "fighting" from the other end. A lot of the cis het people around me usually assume that whole man or woman thing too. However I almost always have time after I've came out as bi to explain that mean it with trans people included. I very rarely have to come out but I also don't hide; I'll very clearly talk about liking who I like. I'm out as bi/pan in a lot of online spaces mostly because I don't like fighting online it's too much wasted energy (plus the pan flag is really pretty). I don't know, maybe I should say I'm bi/pan irl too. That feels a little selfish though. Unfortunately I'm gonna have to say you're right the trans community is already fighting a up hill battle as is. So the non-binary part of it barely gets any acknowledgment in the straight and cis pubic. I don't think I'll ever get to tell anyone so I kinda think you're really smart.

@ryn2844

3 жыл бұрын

@@vinniekatz9584 I'm not sure what would be selfish about openly being bi/pan irl. What's holding you back?

@llunathelynx

3 жыл бұрын

oh my god you put it into words, that's exactly why i prefer pan too... i live in a religious & homophobic country and i don't think most people even know what a non binary is, so i wanna make a distinction that i truly do not take gender into the equation in my attraction and it's not limited to men and women...

@vinniekatz9584

3 жыл бұрын

@@ryn2844 I had to take some time to think about this but, I might have tricked my brain into thinking it's selfish. Like how people say "you need to pick between gay and straight" or "your just confused" I've only had conservative people online say that to me about being bi. So I'm probably afraid of my friends that are a bit more conservative than me saying "you can't claim both bi and pan, pick one" And yeah that's the reason why I wrote it off as selfish. Even though it isn't. Idk but yeah thank you. I know it's just a question but it helped me recognize this. I think maybe I'll use bi/pan irl.

@ryn2844

3 жыл бұрын

@@vinniekatz9584 I asked the question because I was genuinely confused. I didn't mean to send you into an existential crisis haha. But I'm glad it helped :) Don't listen to conservative people online. In my experience, people tend to be kinder than you'd expect irl. (Granted, I live in Amsterdam, not exactly conservative.)

So, I had never realized there were two 'languages' that lead to a lot of the confusion around the term bisexual. However, I would like to posit that some of the value in MOGAI terms comes from being able to find the experience that feels like it 'fits'. I'm asexual, but there's a very specific definition and set of assumptions that comes to mind when you tell someone that. It says 'this person doesn't have any interest in sex in any form, and therefore is also not interested in romantic relationships'. But once you get into the more specific terms around asexuality like demisexual and graysexual, and how it's commonly split into sexual attraction vs romantic attraction, and sex-positive vs sex-averse, you can start to see your *own* lived experience, where before you would have said that asexual doesn't really fit because you still have had crushes, or are interested in some fictional porn, or some other thing that feels like it contradicts what you understood the LGBT+ term to mean. When I learned about the more nuanced terms that lent themselves to how I experienced my own sexuality, that was when I really felt like, yes, okay, I do actually belong under the umbrella of asexuality. But I wouldn't have had that same feeling without also realizing that there are others who have managed to put into words the same experience that I have had. The value of MOGAI is how it lets people realize that there's something that feels like it fits them personally; I definitely believe that it can also lead to odd separations and infighting, and weird disconnects in what certain terms mean. But maybe the larger issue at play is a lack of nuanced media and role models for people to pull their understandings of sexuality from. We came up with these terms because our understandings of the broader terms didn't feel like they fit us; perhaps we can now realize that they do, but because of how they're commonly portrayed, it didn't feel that way to start.

I tend to joke amongst friends that I identify as bisexual because I can be attracted to anything except the pan flag.

Really interesting video. I’m bi and I initially realized I wasn’t straight by having a crush on a nonbinary friend, so the argument that “bi means 2, bi people are transphobic” never held any weight for me. I chose bi as a label because being an older, umbrella-y term, I thought it would be easier for other people to understand (ha. that didn’t really work). But I’ve often felt that maybe I “should” be id’ing as pan instead. Also thought maybe I was just an unwoke old lady for not understanding the differences between bi and other, newer labels, but the community vs individual explanation makes a lot of sense.

@loverrlee

3 жыл бұрын

I’m in the exact same boat! I think a lot of us bi people are! From what I can gather, it really comes down to age and what communities you were first exposed to when forming your sexual identity. The term pan didn’t even exist before I was born, but bi did, so when I was discovering about my own sexuality in the early days of the 90’s internet pre-Tumblr, bi was the only identity label that existed, and now that pan has been introduced, feels like another example of bi-erasure. :(

@slithra227

3 жыл бұрын

@@loverrlee real life people aren't representation, they aren't characters, what they're doing for themselves isn't erasing a part of you because you aren't fictional either. That argument makes no sense to me, no one is writing you out of the script.

@loverrlee

3 жыл бұрын

@@slithra227 To tell people they can’t identify as bi because pan technically is the term everyone has shifted to is bi erasure lol

im simply tired of being called transphobic by biphobic MOGAI individuals who don’t understand bi history lmfao. Its not like all bi people date the same people, and its not like pan people in their life end up dating an equal amount of all the gender’s they’re attracted to. And also,, idk it just annoys me so much in a way because i, as a bisexual, am not gonna be attracted to someone and form a crush on them and then be told by them “ I’m _____ gender” then just stop being attracted because they didnt say they were cis lmfao, I already formed an attraction to them. I really think its simply transphobic to accuse ALL bi people of excluding trans people from our sexuality, as if trans is a separate gender ? Trans people arent cis but they’re still in the binary (or non binary, but enbies dont have a gender so just by premise they’re an exception, and are included regardless). I hope that made sense..? 😅

@loverrlee

3 жыл бұрын

This is what I always thought? I identify as bi and have been attracted to men, women, cis or trans. I have not been attracted to non-binary people but like, I hold nothing against these people, I just haven’t found myself sexually attracted to them. If anything, I’m “non-binarist” but that isn’t a thing, or at least if it is, I don’t know the name for it. But since when is not being attracted to a type of person mean you’re actively against them? We don’t tell Lesbians they are man-haters? Even though they aren’t sexually attracted to men, that doesn’t mean they hate men??? (At least not exclusively though I have heard of some man-hating lesbians). At any rate, I think you’re right, to me it doesn’t really matter how the other person identifies because I am attracted to the person or I’m not, their label doesn’t mean much to me, as long as they’re happy with their label, it’s all good. 🤷‍♀️

@Crimson_Cheetah

3 жыл бұрын

I agree, though I just wanted to say that nonbinary is just an umbrella term, some nonbinary people lack gender, but many do experience gender, it’s just not an exclusively male or exclusively female one

@skepticmoderate5790

3 жыл бұрын

Just a note that some nonbinary people do have gender, nonbinary just means not a binary man or woman. So nonbinary men/women (yes they exist), or demigirl, or agender, or genderfluid are all nonbinary.

@beth7935

3 жыл бұрын

@@loverrlee Yes- not being sexually attracted to someone isn't "disrespecting them as a person"! What is this- demanding that everyone should find you attractive? :D Isn't the whole goddamn point that everyone's attracted to different people??? Or maybe not sexually attracted to anyone?... And that that's _perfectly fine?_

@pugjuice8462

3 жыл бұрын

small correction: some enbies do have a gender, what you're thinking of are agender ppl who don't have a gender. also it's considered kinda, not good to say that every orientation includes nonbinary people-- im nonbinary and many of us lament how (for example) lesbian nonbinary people are being included in male-only attractions. it may Seem woke to include nonbinary in all orientations but please check because it depends on the individual if they feel comfortable being included in that specific attraction.

As a bi man, I was always wondering why someone invented "bi people doesn't date trans". It never happened, to me is just the will to create a new label.

From this video and what I’ve delved into on my own it really feels like MOGAI is something that could only exist on the internet. Not really a detractor from it, but the idea to give a label to every gender identity and sexual orientation would never work unless there was an easy way for mass public/ private communication and information gathering.

@elainelouve

Жыл бұрын

True, nobody outside of that small community even knows what all the words mean. I mean probably 95% of the general population in my country know what gay, lesbian, bi and trans mean. They're learning about nonbinary. Being able to communicate in an understandable way is also a good basis for political action.

@arandomidiot1593

Жыл бұрын

Exactly.

I get the start. I’ve read anthro studies on lgbtq communities abroad. And there are so many practiced lifestyles that do not fit the western preconception but are definitely lgbtq. I find people imposing their own strict personal identity understanding on others is a harmful mentality, and it’s easier to just try to understand the other person, and using general identity terms as icebreakers to a conversation about mutual understanding.

What's interesting (and frustrating) to me is that, I discovered the term "pansexual" over a decade ago, and in the communities I was part of, bi and pan were not presented as opposing, and there was no hate or badmouthing toward the bi community. It was just described as different ways of experiencing attraction. There was also no mention of transgender attraction because it seemed obvious that yes bi people could also be attracted to trans people as well as cis? Why would it matter? So I grew up with this very positive outlook on bi, pan, and the relationship between the two. There were some rough patches such as the "hearts not parts" slogan, which was dropped after it was pointed out the unkind implications. I've only stumbled upon the Discourse between the two in recent years, and while I get that it's probably existed as long as both identities have existed at the same time, it's wild to me to have either side accused of being universally bad toward the other when in my experience we were friends. I have friends who are bi and friends who are pan and we just bond over shared experiences, and I will quickly and fiercely jump to the defense of the bi community. So it sucks to now have people I've never even met accusing me of being biphobic just for IDing as pan, and assuming that because I'm pan that I automatically believe bi doesn't include trans people and that my mere existence is somehow hurting them.

This is the video I was looking for! I am cis and heterosexual and I am currently in the process of educating myself on the LGBT+ and the one thing I did not get was the difference between bi and pan. I had chosen to treat them as the same thing but I did question if I was a bad ally because of that choice

Amazing video! IMO this obsession with creating a label AND FLAG for every tiny nuance of human sexuality and gender expression is just ridiculous and absolutely unattainable because there are infinite possibilities; everyone is different. All it managed to do is create infighting and muddying the waters so much that we no longer agree on what means what, like bisexuals are now suddenly assumed to be transphobic and problematic and asked to limit ourselves simply bc of... Latin root of the word that has for a long time been used as an umbrella term for "attraction o 2 or more genders?" GTFO who cares??? EVERYONE is unique in who and what they find attractive, period. God i hate how off the rails this shit's going!!! the internet was a mistake

@arandomidiot1593

Жыл бұрын

Amen.

When I learned about pansexuality I heard it explained as an attraction to all genders which I thought was men, women, and non binary people then later on found out that people were separating binary trans people from cis men/women. Throughout my childhood I had many crushes on other girls ,boys (trans and cis) and someone who was nonbinary, when I finally accepted myself as not straight I knew I was bisexual even when i knew pansexuality is a thing, so its really weird to see people see it as an attraction that can't include trans people binary or not and particularly transphobic on account of binary trans people.

@neoqwerty

3 жыл бұрын

I had pan explained as "it's the personality that attracts you, not the body". To me pan was always... like... the non-ace brother of demisexuality? Where it's the personality that counts but a pan person could feel physically attracted to people BEFORE striking a friendship with them, whereas a demi needs the friendship first to feel comfortable enough? So this weird "BI IS ONLI FOR CIS MEN AND WOMEN IT'S TRANSPHOBIC" is... just... bwuh???? Aren't the bi peeps basically "so what gender are you attracted to?" " *yes* "?

@matilde_5

3 жыл бұрын

I’m pan and I still can’t understand people that say that trans is a whole different gender Like what- That defeats the whole point-

I'm glad you talked about how mogai identities tend to be more focused on the individual. I use both lgbt+ terminology and mogai terminology for myself but I don't really use Mogai terms when talking to other people, I see those terms as more personal, they're only really there for me to better understand myself. So for the most part I call myself bisexual (and to me that means I'm attracted to men, women-including trans men and trans women, and nonbinary people). I do use pan sometimes depending on context, if I want to make it obvious that I like nonbinary people I may use pan depending on who I'm talking to and how I think they will interpret the different words. But I do prefer bi because I don't consider myself genderblind and I relate a lot to the bi community and the silly stereotypes like cuffing jeans and things like that. At the end of the day I think the discourse is unnecessary and people should be able to use whatever terminology they are most comfortable with.

@sriracha_sauce

3 жыл бұрын

I identify as pan and I have a lot of irl bi friends and we all bond over the bisexual memes since I've always seen pan as under the bi umbrella, I just resonate the most with the pansexual label. It's interesting that none of my IRLs debate extensively or get heated about the distinction but people on the internet do.

I am bi and my little sibling is pan, but we both are attracted to everyone it's just what labels we both feel most comfortable with using for ourselves. When the discourse around these terms came up it was very strange to both of us

People can label themselves however they like. The issue I take is when people who are not bisexual, try to label bisexuals as being exclusionary in some way when bisexuality has never had the nuance of exclusion of any gender. Also, growing up with rampant slut shaming due to my sexual orientation as well as bi erasure, it feels a little bi phobic that there seems to be a sentiment of "anything BUT bisexual". Even the omnisexual flag looks like the bi flag, but with more tones

Really interesting topic! A tension I have noticed within myself when using MOGAI vs LGBT systems is how confused I feel when I use the LGBT system. In MOGAI terms, I am clean cut polysexual. But in LGBT terms, I am interested in a spectrum of genders that range from agender to woman, and never experience attraction to masculine genders. Some people will tell me I am a lesbian, because I don't date men. Some people tell me I am bi because I date people other than just women. Neither feels right, and I have no idea which label I share material conditions with in my oppression. I've met a lot of people who are in my shoes. Right now, I use bisexual which constantly gets read by others as "attracted to all genders" unless I explain further and has led to a lot of awkward/uncomfortable situation, like friends trying to set me up with men or being pursued by men, which is not my preference. This is definitely an experience I have heard from other bi people who feel sort of "in between" the gay/lesbian ID and the bisexual one. Would love to hear thoughts on this!

@JennaGetsCreative

3 жыл бұрын

I definitely get that! I grew up using bisexual because that's the only term I knew then. It was the early 2000s and my highschool had an "LGBT Alliance" group that many of my friends were very involved in. I only have those 4 letters to work with and I'm not a man so I felt my options were L or B. In the last decade I started hearing about all these other labels (but never actually came across the MOGAI acronym) and embraced pansexuality for a long time. Last year a novel I was reading with a trans character who was still trying to pin down his gender identity sparked a lightbulb moment for me and I realized I could split things down into more specific labels. Panromantic demisexual. I'm still perfectly fine being called bi because I consider myself to be under that umbrella.

@nathandegroot8464

3 жыл бұрын

I would say that terms like lesbian and gay aren't non-binary exclusionary. lesbians can be attracted to women and nonbinary people and still be lesbians!

@bel8784

3 жыл бұрын

In an LGBT context, people who experience the kind of attraction you describe will often label themselves lesbians. I think neither gender nor sexuality is ever entirely fixed or clear cut, and the traditional focus of the label is to find community with similar goals and interests. Something to look into might be the history of the hypersexualization of lesbians, which has led a number of young, gay women to feel disconnected from the term. (Not saying this is necessarily true for you). You should use whatever label you feel comfortable with, but if you tell people, especially straight people, that you are bisexual, they will probably assume you are attracted to men, and you may find yourself having repeated awkward encounters and/or conversations. Finally, please know that it is okay and normal to change your mind and your label as you learn more about yourself. Good luck!

@loverrlee

3 жыл бұрын

I also identify as bi but am much more attracted to women than men, with the exceptions being that if the man is “feminine” (doesn’t have to identify as feminine but displays feminine qualities) I am only attracted to feminine men, women, and/or trans people regardless of how they choose to identify. This of course gets frustrating because there is no real term to say I’m not attracted to toxic masculinity. I’m an anti-masc-er? lol no! Not that!! 🤣

@clockwork4255

3 жыл бұрын

@@loverrlee LMAOOOOO NOT THE ANTI-MASC-ER. THATS GENIUS 🤣🤣

I’m pan, but totally chill if anyone ever calls me bi. Honestly all of these words are just terms that we as humans came up with to make ourselves feel more comfortable… So, just use whichever words make you feel comfortable. For me that’s pansexual for someone who has the exact same feelings that might be bisexual. Someone else who feels the same may not want to use a label at all. Just do what makes you feel comfortable and respect what makes other people feel comfortable. Love this video.

@Ishidalover

2 жыл бұрын

Same here 😁

i have always called myself bi, and all that means for me is that i like what i like. it's like food in a way to oversimplify it. i don't just like sweet or salty. i just eat things and if it's tasty, it's tasty. sometimes i might be in the mood for something salty or sweet, but food has all sorts of flavors and many of them are great.

Micro labels and umbrella identities shouldn't be put against each others, both can work and identities policing are tiring

really enjoyed this vid. Im especially interested in the idea of lgbt vs mogai with lgbt forming as a community out of oppression and mogai forming out of a more internal individual experience, which I had not considered. I feel like quiet a bit of the toxicity around these online debates stems from the individualism of mogai, often cloaked in moralism, and I wonder if it'd be as much of a problem if.. idk ppl went outside more haha. but more seriously, if people engaged with labels more on a community level and focused on what brings us together, rather than splitting hairs about our differences. And as you said, if we all examine and deconstruct our transphobic then a lot of these problems of naunce and labels wouldn't exist.

I use “bisexual” because I don’t have to get into details as most people have an idea what it means.

As an HoH, British syoutubers really do be the only one providing actual CCs and I genuinely appreciate it with all my heart!

I know this is an old video, but I’ve gotta pop in here with a fun fact! Circa 2015-2016, I ran the first and most popular blog on abrosexuality (essentially fluid) on tumblr. I basically stopped when I decided to consider myself bisexual instead. But it’s important to mention the fact that my actual experience didn’t change - I still go through months long periods where I have no interest in girls or whatever. The main reason I changed my label is because it made it easier to explain to others. But it’s still kinda hard to explain because people that know I’m bi expect me to like all these genders all the time… but I don’t. I’ve kind of just come to terms with confusing people but I really can’t fault anyone for choosing a more specific word. Even if it’s technically a type of bisexuality, calling myself bi gives people the wrong idea a lot. Also I’m definitely pretty responsible for the popularity of abrosexuality since it was virtually unheard of and not on any of those websites before I started my blog… so yeah blame me it was me.

@elainelouve

Жыл бұрын

Back in the early 2000's we just talked about gender preference, I mean between bi people. My friend said she prefers feminine women and masculine men, I said I don't care, gender or gender expression doesn't matter to me. (Btw we ended up dating for a short while, though I was a masculine "woman", later coming out as enby.) Anyway that's how I'm used to dealing with these nuances. That we're under the umbrella of bisexuality, but we have individual preferences, and in the end those might not matter at all. Just as my husband is straight, but he also loves my masculine side, and doesn't see any problem with being with a nonbinary person.

i think we need bisexual is chips stickers...... i mean i definitely do. thank you for planting that sentence in my bi enby head, and thank you for your videos, i really enjoy them.

It's so strange to start running into all of these arguments and see how they differ across platforms. When I decided that I liked the label pan instead of bi, it was almost 10 years ago, and no one really seemed to care at all. Now I've been toying with this label because I'm not sure if I'm attracted to men, but all these arguments still irked me. On twitter it's: "bi people are transphobic" on tiktok it's: "pan people are transphobic and biphobic because they think all bi people are transphobic" and on tumblr it's "pan doesn't exist, it's just bi with a superiority complex." You can't even decide what argument is the right argument to be had across platforms, but you can safely say that an entire group in our community is transphobic? It just doesn't make sense to me.

@Volzotran

3 жыл бұрын

There is definitely more panphobia than biphobic pan people. Many of those who define bisexuality as always only being attracted to men and women do It out of ignorance and not out of hatres and they usually quickly learn that they were wrong with all the panphobia around. So it's pointless to call an entire group transphobic etc If they really aren't. Hate against pan people is definitely more prevalent as also seen in this comment section. They feel as If pan people are taking something away from them or judging them as less etc but that's not true. I've catched myself feeling similarly to the term "omnisexual" because at first I felt kind of offended because I thought It implied that all pan people don't see gender/are genderblind, which is not even true for most pansexuals, but then I realized that there are stilk genderblind pansexuals and omnisexual are just further distinguishing themselves but not saying that I as a pansexual have to automatically be genderblind, so I didn't care anymore immediately. But many bisexuals can't get over that, which is sad

@stargirl32102

3 жыл бұрын

@@Volzotran hey it's kind of inappropriate to say that "hate against pan people" is more prevalent than biphobia when biphobia is a very real, dangerous thing that affects bisexuals in real life (domestic violence rates against bi women for example). like yeah maybe some ppl are rude to pansexuals online but that doesn't really compare to real life discrimination

@maxwellsuperbien6359

3 жыл бұрын

As a pan person I feel the same as you. I'm really hurt by this discourse and the fact that I tend to automatically say "but don't worry I have nothing against bi I just like pan better and the flag is really pretty and I like making pan puns". I feel obligated to say that because I'm afraid my bi pals will be afraid of me saying they're transphobic. I just wish that pan and bi people recognize the struggles we share.

@pipsqueak1079

3 жыл бұрын

@@stargirl32102 I disagree. Pan people are hated by the community and by people outside of it, and the only reason why it might seem like bi people get more hate is because bisexuality is more ‘mainstream’ (people know about it more than pansexuality). Though bi people do get hate from the community, it’s not nearly as much as pansexuality. Both, sadly, get a lot of hate, but saying that pansexuality isn’t hated nearly as much is plain and simple incorrect.

@stargirl32102

3 жыл бұрын

@@pipsqueak1079 bi people also face discrimination from inside and outside the community?? plus it's not a competition to see who gets more "hate" i was only pointing out that the person said hate against pan ppl is more common because of some comments on youtube, whereas biphobia actually affects people in real life. not to mention that biphobia from cishets would also target pansexuals since the two are similar and our dating pools are literally the same, and to a person who doesn't know about pansexuality their discrimination would affect anyone attracted to multiple genders.

I swear the title reminded me of the term "Mogwai" from the Gremlins. Maybe we are all Mogwai that cannot turn into Gremlins that hurt each other Lol!

This video clarified so much for me. I've been trying to figure out many of these things for a while. Your cat in a box is adorable! Thank you for making this.

I have always believed bisexual to mean “two” as in the sense of being attracted to people with the same gender as ones self and other genders.

I am pansexual and have bisexual friends yet had no idea about the fight between the two sexualities- There's a lot I've been missing out on

@melanopygus

3 жыл бұрын

It's mostly in instagram comments. I've never once had a discussion or fight on it irl.

I am so with you on the learning identity labels irl rather than online. Another great video essay, been working my way through your back catalogue.

Loving your current content. I watched previous videos from the early days of KZread and am very happy to have found your channel again!!

I feel very conflicted about this. In a way I liked learning that their is a word for sexually fluid people. I am not fluid at all but am bi. When I tell people alot of the time they start talking about sexuality being something fluid. In a way I am the least fluid no matter who I fall for I will still be bi.

@zaxxya7883

3 жыл бұрын

@Rachel Forshee I think your point is really interesting. I would argue that these two viewpoints can actually mesh, but with some compromise. The way I see it, you are born with one brain, one soul, etc. From there it is a journey of self discovery. At one point in time you may realize you prefer one set of pronouns. Then you may reevaluate, and realize you chose those pronouns for reasons that you dislike. Your fundamental self hasn't changed. When I was a teen I was very nerdy. Loved to read, went to comic con, etc. As I matured, I left a lot of those interests behind. But, I still love to read. I still get hooked on stories. I'm still obsessive over interests. My traits have remained stagnant, but my relationship with and expression of those traits has changed. I think sexuality and gender are the same way. There are people who may find themselves dipping into different parts of themselves more frequently than the rest, and I think thats where the term genderfluid comes from, but they are fundamentally the same person the whole time. That's why many prefer to have one label (genderfluid) than switch labels every time their relationship with gender shifts Now I'm saying this as someone who has experienced far more fluidity in terms of sexuality than gender so if any gender fluid people want to correct me that'd be great To summarize, I think you can both be "born this way" and experience fluidity of gender and sexuality. Our culture is just not a fan of presenting it that way

i agree w/ a lot of what you said about pan and bi essentially being regional synonyms, but when talking abt the disagreements and fighting between these two groups of people i think its really important to talk about how the two labels are used and their effects on people who identify with them if that makes sense? like how you talked about the history of pan and bisexuality as labels, but couldve mentioned how the word "bisexual" carries a lot of stigma, which at least partially inspired the birth of "pansexual" which is often portrayed as a "more inclusive" version of bisexuality, whos members "care about personality" as opposed to bisexuals who care more about sex. I feel like the way that the label pansexual enforces negative stereotypes about bisexuals is a HUGE reason for this debate, but as a video discussing the definitions of the two labels as a point of conflict, this is a really good video, and should be watched by a lot of ppl in the lgbt community tbh lol

@pyropple6663

3 жыл бұрын

good god i wrote i lot oops

@nobodyelsewillbethere

3 жыл бұрын

this deserved more likes omg...literally modern usage of the term pansexual stems solely from a misunderstanding of what bisexuality even is and it feels like every definition of pansexuality ive seen seems to be a thinly veiled fear of being labeled bisexual

@nathandegroot8464

3 жыл бұрын

@@nobodyelsewillbethere fucking exactly!!!!

@clockwork4255

3 жыл бұрын

@@nobodyelsewillbethere that veil comes off when pans absolutely insist that pan means all/regardless of gender. As if bisexuals havent been saying that for decades. Like their definitions just dont hold up to me. "Hearts not parts" implies others sexualities only care about sex/genitalia. "Men women and trans ppl." Not only implies that trans men and women are a third gender that arent included in the phrase "men and women." But it implies that other orientations arent into trans ppl. And "men women and enbies." Has the same issue.

@angelwales9138

3 жыл бұрын

@@clockwork4255 I personally identify as pan, partially because I was kinda taught that bisexual= 2. However, unlike in some places I always thought/assumed it included trans people and always have hated the "hearts not parts" motto of pansexuality. Even after finding out that for lots of people bisexuality doesn't have to mean 2 genders (I always took it as two of any, not necessarily male/female) pan still just vibes with me more than bi, partially because of my own gender identity and how I personally feel about it for myself. I don't try to tell bisexual people what their identity is/means and just wish there was more acceptance within the community. Biphobia and panphobia suck and I just wish people would let other people live their lives.

I'm in the same boat as you, could be referred to as bi or pan interchangeable because for me it's the same thing. Getting really tired of people who don't identify as bisexual telling us what our sexuality is based on definitions that never existed instead of listening to us and, even if they don't like the label, celebrating our similarities.

@guytrashgurtdog515

2 жыл бұрын

Yes thank you oh my god

@Hiforest

2 жыл бұрын

I just don’t consider gender as a factor in compatibility and never have.

I have chills! Your knowledge and delivery are amazing. Thank you.

Me watching this video: the woman with mathematical formulas floating around her meme.

I was very involved in the pan v. bi discourse on tumblr when I was younger. At first, I had identified as pansexual and quickly discovered my own little community on tumblr. (Disclaimer: everything I state in the following refers only to this small community of mutuals.) We were all pretty young so I don't fault anyone for the things that had been said in that community, but it's a big reason as to why I decided to reidentify as bisexual. I heard (and repeated, unfortunately) a lot of transphobic statements in reference to pansexuality. The phrase "it's like bisexual, but you wouldn't mind dating a trans person" (which implies that transwomen are not women and vice versa and was incredibly problematic) was passed around a LOT and the more I became informed of queer history, the more I started to become uncomfortable with my community's perception of pansexuality. There was a lot of misrepresentation of bisexuality as well (not that I fault them for it, I don't expect literal children to read up on queer and bisexual history). But of course, it wouldn't be tumblr without the toxic discourse, which I think is where the term "pansexuality" fell out of my good graces for a while. I'm ashamed of the things I had said following my change in identity and would NEVER repeat them, but I've come to the general understanding that, although the two may overlap, people should identify with whatever is most comfortable to them. (And because of my experience in that community, "pansexual" was not an identity that I was comfortable with calling myself anymore-not that it necessarily matters anymore since I have discovered that my "journey" had focused solely on my attraction to women to the point that I didn't even realize I wasn't attracted to men.) That being said, if you still consider bisexuality to be transphobic (or even use the *distinction* "pansexuals don't care what's in your pants" in which "unlike bisexual people do" is left unsaid but heavily implied), you should be held accountable and put in the work. Research. Read the bisexual manifesto. Labels are the language we use to unite, so choose the one you feel most comfortable with.

This is so informative and so eloquent. I have felt this way about this topic for a very long time but never had the right words to express it. Thank you!

Your work is so thought-provoking, but then I turn around and bust a gut laughing at your humour. Love this combo. Big fan!

i just found your channel and i have to say i love how you put together your videos. theyre easy to watch and understand while also being extremely informative! this issue in particular has been on my mind a lot, because nothing bothers me more as a nb bi person who is engaged to a nb bi person than people telling me that actually neither of us are bi. it was nice to hear it put into words in such an eloquent way that i never could!

In my own personal experience, it's often other members of our LGBTQIA+ community policing my identity and orientation and trying to explain to me who I find attractive and what it means. The bi cancel culture is just insane to me. I've always identified as bi. I'm attracted to more than two genders, including trans and nonbinary people. I'm sorry but I don't understand the hang up some people have about this. At no point throughout bisexual history has any of us ever said "You recognize more than M/F genders and are okay with dating a person regardless of their gender? Nope. Sorry Sam. You can't be bi anymore, give back your card!" The point you made of it being an umbrella term really stuck out to me because for decades, that's exactly what it was. opening I'm proud to be bi and like many others, it took me a long while to be comfortable and confident in myself and my identity. If you feel offended by my sexuality, talk to me. Tell me why you feel the way you do. In return, give me the opportunity to explain what my identity means to me. It's 2021 babes. All it takes is communication and respect to help us understand each other a little better.

Thank you love! You helped give me some much needed Vocab. Love your videos BTW

I'm a demi pansexual cis woman and this was such an informative video! Thank you! I live in the bible belt (southern USA) and I often just say I'm bisexual for brevitys sake. A lot of people here are ignorant about LGBTQA people and how we operate lol so I don't always want to try to explain it while they ask stupid questions or patronize me. A lot of folks including my dear baby boomer mom, think I am "not gay anymore" because I am with a cis man for 5 years now lol. A lot of these people mean no harm because they don't know any better but there are venomous bigots too and the rampant homophobia and transphobia is honestly sickening. You are such a lovely person and I feel drawn to you. I hope that isn't weird lol. My youngest brother recently came out as bisexual and he is also demi and generally prefers the same sex (selectively heterosexual is what we call it) just like his big sister. I had nobody growing up and the times were much different then, so I'm glad I can be here for him as someone who not only understands, but loves him unconditionally.

Pansexual as a identity has existed before tumblr.

@oliviawaycott5161

3 жыл бұрын

Not referring to purely human sexual attraction

@guytrashgurtdog515

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah but the original definition of pan isn’t exactly something to be proud of...identify however you want but pan came from a really fucked up place lol

@cidevant002

3 жыл бұрын

@@oliviawaycott5161 No, it actually did. Do better research.

@cidevant002

3 жыл бұрын

@@guytrashgurtdog515 So? Every single word queer people use didn't came from us and they all have histories of their own. Lesbian used to mean scissoring, it wasn't an identity at all. Bisexual used to mean intersex. Asexual used to mean just plants and other organisms. I have a dictionary at home right now that defines homosexual as a pedophile. Queer was for the strange and peculiar. It doesn't matter the history behind those words. They are ours now and they mean what we say they mean, because that is the nature of language.

@loverrlee

3 жыл бұрын

And it will exist after Tumblr dies too lol

in my opinion, being bi means being attracted to multiple genders, while being pan means being attracted to people regardless of gender. I am attracted to people of all genders(when im attracted to people, i don't get crushes very often) but their gender DOES affect how i like them it just DOESN'T mean that i won't be attracted to them because of their gender. that's why i choose bi rather than pan. Bisexuals have gone through so much, received hate from straights and gays alike, we can't throw the term out of the window after all that please

@someonesomeone25

3 жыл бұрын

I see it that way too.

@doc8782

3 жыл бұрын

I feel like that distinction is completely meaningless.

@someonesomeone25

3 жыл бұрын

@@doc8782 To me the distinction is that in this way of understanding, a bi will be attracted to differently gendered bodies in different ways (liking penis and vag but differently), whereas a pan will be attracted to any gendered body the same.

@lonely_saturn

3 жыл бұрын

I also see it in this way.

@JennaGetsCreative

3 жыл бұрын

That's how it was explained to me, too, when I discovered there were terms beyond bisexual. These days I accept that distinction but also consider pan to be a subset of bisexuality. Bisexuality is all orientations attracted to multiple genders. Pan is the subset that isn't considering gender. For people who want a simple, top-level, no debates label for me I just say bisexual. For people who want a deeper dive, I'm panromantic demisexual. Similarly, I'm a very fem-leaning AFAB non-binary and 97% of the time I don't care about being clocked as cis and only ever called she/her, so I don't try to claim non-binary most of the time. In circles who care, I feel like the subcategory term demigirl fits very well and I'm comfortable with she/they.

INSTANTLY charmed by you. This topic exhausts me and the perspectives you shared here were a pleasure to hear.

Every time I watch one of your videos, 'It must be love' by Madness plays in my head. Thank you for your amazing channel.

Probably the best I have seen on the topic. Discourse (some folks hate that word!) among LGBT / MOGAI people can often be heated, and those of us old enough to have experienced the origins of "LGBT" as a thing can come up against internetsters with new flags telling us we're wrong because a prefix means a thing. Anyway, I am not selling it enough! If you are interested in Queer discourse, linguistics, the history of sexual politics, flags, or chips, this is pretty great.

I like the example of colors, making lines where lines are not. Everything blends together, that's why we call it a spectrum. Sometimes the lines we create overlap, because labels aren't perfect; they're simply an attempt to communicate how we feel. I identify as pan because it's the easiest way for me to communicate to people that I really don't care about gender at all when it comes to who I'm attracted to. Someone who identifies as bi can feel the exact same way and be completely valid. Bi is simply a less specific label that broadly overlaps with pan, omni, polysexual, etc. Any of these are valid, and are simply words that we use in an attempt to communicate. The distinction matters to some, and that's okay. I really don't understand why we have fight about this. Do all these labels generally describe the same type of thing? Yes. Are any of these ever going to fit every single person who uses them perfectly? No, because everyone is different, and language doesn't *define* feelings; it just expresses them. We're all just doing our best to communicate; there's really no reason to fight over this. Just support everyone and love everyone equally. Isn't that the whole idea of the LGBTQ+ community? The fact that people are even having these arguments absolutely baffles me. Friendly reminder: you are valid no matter what word you use to express yourself.

This video was so good! I love the comparison with the measurement systems, made me think about these labels in a different contextualized way

This was soooo interesting and informative and insightful. Thank you for clearing up the confusion!