I absolutely agree with the point "pick an army with a cool vibe". I was changing armies a lot and got sick of it, my therapist of all people helped me over a few sessions get to the core of why I kept changing armies and it was because I was rules chasing even though I wasn't trying to be competitive.. Arrived at a plan that is so far working: - I have Stormcast for when I don't want to think too much (have loved their models and fluff since day 1). - I have Lumineth for when I do want to think lots (love the models, the fluff is interesting enough, thankfully latest books removed most of the NPE and I can just choose to not use Total Eclipse). - At some point a third army will be decided on, in no rush, for when I feel like playing something that isn't the first two.

Vince I love your your K.O. idea for Leagues of Votann! I can see the large spherical balloon/blimp elements on the proxies for gunhaulers, boats etc being more prismatic polygons/octahedrons with the large rounded corners & filleted edges that are iconic to the LoV aesthetic.

Why do I kept visualising bubbles coming out of Tom's pipe 😏

Seems like a selection of five or six armies for a new person to choose from- a nice range without being overwhelming. In time they look for a second army with a more experienced set of eyes, and there are many more to select from. It's another way I think AoS is in a good place right now. Great video guys, I really enjoyed it. Didn't agree with everything though! 🤷

I collected and painted 30 metal Gutterrunners over lockdown. Turned out to be good in the new book and now I'm kicking arse with them 😁

Thanks for the shoutout Vince, you're an awesome dude as well :)

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely! it was a great review man and your insights are always on point.

Every year this is one of my favourite episode. Gives me plenty of ideas for a hobby starter box for the holiday season.

1:43:08 "Urine for $800" Sums up Sons of Behemat pretty nicely 🤣🙈🙈🙈

Kruleboyz are actually really cheap. Just buy the Dominion part 2 or 3 times. Even in the US that shouldn't cost you more than 150$, then 1 or 2 cool Models, done! You might be tight on Manboyz, but for starters that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Great episode Vince! This will definitely be useful making the leap into AoS from 40K. Based on the large numbers of factors to consider when recommending an army I’d like to suggest a change for next years version of this show. I’d like to see you go through each army and make a radar/ spider graph for each army with variables like ease of play, cost, starter box usefulness, ease of painting/ acquisition, etc. You might not be able to put them all on one page like you did in this episode but once you got through all of them here it ended up pretty messy and hard to read. A spider graph lets you roll the starter box discussion into the overall evaluation and it’s immediately apparent how beginner friendly an army is based on a greater number of factors than just difficulty and cost. Anyway, keep up the great work, looking forward to more Votann content ( would love to see your take on the red and gold of Ymyr), and can’t wait for next week’s episode.

About the greywater fastness box, we do know the situation with CoS, the redesign is empire 2.0, all humans, exactly as they did in WHFB, nothing for elves and dwarves

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

DId they confirm that somewhere?

A KO army from those Votann, that sounds so awesome Vince, and Maybe I'm biased but my favored golden demon was those lovely Skaven getting down to business.

You guys have a fun energy. Laughed many times, great video as always

I'll be seeing you at Holy Havoc! Gonna be a hard push to get my army done in time...just found out I was going a few days ago. But it should be fun! :)

Personally I got the Saurus because I wanted the big t Rex. And also it comes with 8 Khights 😅 but it costs the same as just the carno so may as well get free lizards and raptors haha

@HawkwardHobbies

Жыл бұрын

I went all in on Saurus for my third army. Saurus Stonks to the moon!

@Birdmanesp92

Жыл бұрын

I bought the box as my first set, simply to paint the T-Rex, found out it had a game you can play it in and now I'm a Seraphon player.

Thanks for the great video 🎉 The seems to be a challenge for Vince and his never changing co-hosts: how to start a army in the rirgt bottom corner as a new player 😊

I'm already painting a Start Collecting for Gitz. I'm plannig on buying a second one, adding Mangler Squigs/Troggboss and Loonboss on Giant Cave Squig and I'll have a 1000 pts. Probably not the most competitive list but I'll be able to bring these bad boys to the table and painting them is such a joy.

Pipe smoking is one of my many hobbies good to see Tom enjoying the hobby!

I guess it's all a matter of circumstance for the individual when it comes to this stuff, how much disposable income you have vs the time you can put into your force/forces but I couldn't agree more with you guys about collecting an army you love for more than just how they work in the game right now. Because loving the range/lore/feel of an army definitely out ranks all other factors for your hobby in total over just the in game mechanics of the army. :) Great show as always guys!

i've been going back and forth on what army to start AoS with for a few weeks now, so this came just in time

@KingKooba22

Жыл бұрын

Ironjawz it is

I got the Dominion box, and then another box fell onto me, and I bought the Ven Brecht's Black Watch just because I wanted to paint them, and I guess that's my starting army. :D Don't think I'll ever have the stamina for comp play though so that's fine. :)

Nice watch, handy as i was planning on starting AoS and unsure where to start. 1 point though is every other army one of you goes "oh i don't know" on where to place the army.. Which kinda beats the point on doing a tier list based on your opinion.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Together we have good coverage, but no one can really know all of them. Stronger as a team. :)

great show guys, love the channel. So I recently bought gotrek because I like the character since I read trollslayer x number of years ago and the model, but I was wondering if you would recommend him for play and which of the order armies he works best with, also I am a complete noob to aos, (although i was a skaven player back in the world that was) so any advice would be gratefully appreciated.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Gotrek is fine, he's a killer to be sure, but his challenge is he's slot in a very mobile game. That being said, he can work in many armies. Cities, KO or DoK can all make quite good use of him as a hammer/anvil combo to draw attention.

I pretty much agree straight down the line (especially for the buy recommendations). Maybe Nighthaunt are a little easier to play and DoK although fragile have some amazing scoring options that might make them rate a lite higher, still expensive. It would be interesting to see the same list once the last 2nd edition books are replaced.

While the assessment of Cities of Sigmar is correct, objectively, I think there's a way to simplify it for new players: treat it as multiple smaller armies bolted together. For many people new to fantasy wargaming, they're looking for familiar factions that they know from cultural osmosis. Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Wizards, etc. They aren't in the market for a melange of units chosen for their raw mechanical value, they're in the market for completing an army of Vanilla Dwarves or Wood Elves or Regular Humans. Taken holistically, the volume of warscrolls in Cities is daunting to the point of being unapproachable. Full of trap choices and dead ends. Taken as a repository for models that once constituted their own armies, though, and Cities becomes dirt simple. You're just selecting the best units from a specific archetype, which might be comparable in size to Flesheater Courts. Is this a competitively viable way to play AoS? Hell no. But it's more in line with what the new player wants out of their army. And most new players aren't going into competitive environments anyway. (The fact that everything about Cities is going to change soon IS still a major concern, and good reason to hold off investing in the army. It's a complete gamble as to what Cities will look like next year.)

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

This is all really well said

"Surprising how a small change can have a big effect" Yes. One aspect of my resistance against changes to save stacking, as any change much less the many drastic changes proposed, could be massive. Vindicated in the long run for other reasons (main save stacking armies aren't dominating anymore as top players have moved on to other armies and other armies have been updated + buffed, GHB changes, and in general everyone has figured out what the counters were) "Finding that fulcrum can be difficult." Absolutely And just because they find it, doesn't mean they apply the necessary force to the correct side (or the necessary magnitude to the correct side) I appreciate their take on balsnce, there are a lot of knobs that can be used for tuning. I think they need to have a bit more iteration with army designers. Some bonuses (whether an artifact, subfaction bonus, etc) intrinsically enable an army to play the game (whether by doubling down on the army's core strategy or by enabling an alternative strategy normally not feasible), while other bonuses are cool in an RPG sense but do not help play the game. They need to watch moneyball and take the central message of "getting on base" to heart. Here, getting on base is an enhancement / army bonus adding a mechanic that helps an army play the game. Not just in core rules in general, but also in a variety of off design scenarios (that typically show up as GHB seasons at different points in time).

The SBGL start collecting is amazing. 20 GG which you use in almost every list, 5 black knights are really great in blood now, and the Wight King is absolutely great in Kastelai to be a cheap carrier for command trait and artifact to buff your blood knights ( just not in this GHB since your grave guard will be 1000000% extra doomed to die)

@BlastastiC

Жыл бұрын

It's a small pool of people, but just to say it's an absolutely amazing box for anyone looking to build a classic Warhammer and/or Ninth Age army as every model in that box works and can easily be ranked up on squares. This is a project I'm working on atm as I always wanted a classic Vampire counts army! That plus adding the FEC Start Collecting box is amazing.

With the skaven (and other armies with lots of trap choices / and some finesse requierements), do they become more straight forward with certain builds? Like is it still feasable for a newbie to get a relatively straight forward army if he sticks to a well known pattern? Like running 6 storm fiends + thanquol? Thanks for the great vid :)

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

It could be, if you're just sticking to a netlist, but many of those have some tactical complexity and the underlying rules are also quite tricky.

@ImreRides

Жыл бұрын

@@VinceVenturella thank you :-) Seems reasonable.

Thank you so much for the shout out Vince (and for all the hobby cheating vids). Legend 🙏. P.s. Looking at the cabinets once I’d dropped off my entries, I honestly thought to myself ‘well it’s just nice to be here’ 😂.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

I've had that same feeling so often. :)

DANG, that tea looks delightful.

I LOVE this video! I sent it to my friend who has traditionally played 40K and I hope to convert to AoS. However, I'm surprised Vince didn't simply use the free-to-use Tier maker program for ranking the armies.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

I thought about it, but I wanted two dimensions and it's just easier in the PP, because then I have it for future reference as well. :) plus, it's easier for me to make a general map with horizontal and vertical differentials.

@richardmallow9189

Жыл бұрын

@@VinceVenturella That makes sense. Haha. I was only curious due to the prevalence of "Tier Maker" meme videos on KZread. Cheers for the reply, by the way. I love your videos and your work.

Hey you guuuysss! Great show as usual! Now, I've just popped over to the GW site, and found the Lumineth Vanguard/Start Collecting.... Where would you rank this box? Buy or Pass? And am I a fool to keep up with the LRL (being a total newbie in AoS), or should I move on and find another army?

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Okay, so I talked about this at the end of the newest show on LRL (check that out for sure). I would say it's better for newer players, though it's still a little challenging, you'll have a learning curve, but if you really love the army, I would say it's doable now. As to the start collecting, yeah, it's good, a solid base pick-up for sure.

Interested to see how the 2023 version goes with all the new battle tomes. Im a new SBGL player and the start collecting box is straight money but hard to find and the newer Vanguard box has blood knights instead of death knights 😮

Saurus are fun. If you play fun and with zero intent on winning it's fun models and with Carno, and the knights are essential battleline in Coalesced

I’d be interested to hear your opinion on LoFP with regards to this video. What would you buy to get started, how hard to play, how hard to paint, and how expensive? I’m mid painting my first army (iron jaws) and I’m very interested in LoFP as my second

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Right now - it would be in the lower right, not quite LRL but it's close. That being said, there is no way I would start it now, as it's getting absorbed into the S2D book coming at the end of the year. So who knows.

This weekly show is sooo cool. So much love and so well-sorted topics. Nice work !!! my fav show on AOS.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Awesome, thank you!

Thanks!

Classic Tom and Vince, straight conversation, awesome people, thank you for my weekly shot of hobbytime, love you gents

Great chat with just the two of you. Hope Tyler is okay. Miss that beautiful man

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

He's all good, just recovering now.

Nice vid. Doesn't seem like you scored based on your set out criteria of easy to paint etc, but rather state of the army in the box. I do agree with your arrows though :)

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Oh, I meant for the army ranking, the start collecting was just more fun. :)

I really hope warriors and knights are good in the new StD book. As a new AoS player looking at making lists for them it feels like the internal balance is sponsored by 3 gnomes in a trench coat.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Totally agreed.

@Goon94

Жыл бұрын

Well it looks like you got your wish. The new chosen rules and models are pretty awesome too. I've really been thinking about starting StD now that the new book is out.

I have no idea what to do with my new models. I’m pretty far in the hole already with Daughters of khaine lol

what does it say about me that i play 3 armies on the upper left, Nighthaunt, Ironjaws, and Maggotkin. I recently sold my Kharadrons. i want to start Gloomspite, but i'm waiting for a new book before really considering them

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

It says you have good taste. :)

I'm brand new to the AoS world. I decided to start with Sons, I understand the new book is coming, is it like 40k where all the new rules and info hit early? Didn't want to build a giant wrong and regret it lol.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, it will all be out in just a few hours likely. :)

Does Gitz move if one starts with a Troggoth only army, maybe no Hag

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

If you really wanted to lock to just Trolls, it would be much easier, at least a whole tier up.

Some kruelboyz troops are really cheap due to the billion boxes of dominion

I would put DoK higher. This is finesse army and might be squishy .. but almost everything works togather. You will not feel lost how to build them, buffs are stright forward and powerful. Maybe it's not ideal for new player to learn AoS .. but for someone who understands basic concepts of the game it's like Lego Army, "build what you like". Everything just works, and when you fail you can clearly see where you made mistakes, you always see options what you could have done better. It's almost perfect 2nd army to learn.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

That makes sense, the 2nd army choice seems right.

Grimghasts can't be built as bladegheists... Unless you're converting I guess. This is like the 3rd time I've heard Tom say that on this show too lol

@teagancombest6049

Жыл бұрын

They're on 32s, I've proxied them as bladegheists so many times.

The one army I disagree with is Stormcast Eternals. They are a good starter army for a new player. Few allegiance abilites, mostly straight forward warscrolls focused on numbers, easy to paint. Having 70+ warscrolls is of little concern for this, because most stand on their own and there is little cross synergy in the book. So very little of "unit 54 is bad, unless you pair it with hero 27 or unit 61". You can just have a 5 minute conversation with another player and come up with a list of 20-30 units that you focus on. Only buy units from that list, ignore the rest of the book. Also makes all army list creation easy since you only pick from the units that you bought, following that list. I would not push the army down an entire tier just because those 5 minutes of research/conversation are necessary.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

I understand, but I've had this exact discussion with 2 different SCE players who are newer in the past two weeks who both thought I didn't go far enough and they are actually harder. I was able to help both of them navigate it, but their experiences I don't think are rare.

Okay, I need help! I play SCE and my buddy plays Kruleboys. Lately I’ve lost every single game he has all the monsters and just about every model in the line. I have dominion pack, bastian C, and hand full of other troops. I need help beating him. I just don’t know what I’m doing wrong to lose every game

@coltspinks9397

Жыл бұрын

Vince, can you just send me to where you helped the stormcast player 😂

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

The real answer is likely to expand the collection, some fulminators, dragons, annhilators with hammers, or other mixes like that might do you better. the Dominion is a good base, but it has to be expanded to some other items.

@coltspinks9397

Жыл бұрын

@@VinceVenturella thanks. Right after I typed that up you talked about the other stormcast and some of those troops. Gonna try that out. I’m not looking to win everytime, but it has sucked loosing like the last 5 -7 games when I feel like I’m doing everything right

This is great as I’ve got Sylvaneth, Cities and LRL 😂😂

Are LRL really more expensive than Tzeentch? Its like $260 for a brick of Pinks and splits.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

All of the LRL kits are the most expensive for the sprues of that size. You're not wrong on the pinks, but you can get a lot of the other stuff cheap.

Although they are a horde style army, I’d propose Beasts of Chaos. Easy and forgiving to paint, not too complex to play, and they no longer stink on the table power wise!

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

I don't think you're wrong, but there are a lot of trap choices.

@davidwasilewski

Жыл бұрын

@@VinceVenturella true, true, says the guy whose painted 60 Gor 🙄

Glue your spare gargant arms to empty soda bottles to stretch that kit as far as it'll go.

Well I am new, I am looking for a deal. I feel the dominion boxes are the best value. 60 men, the rules, cards, and board. 150 where I am. That seem like a deal to me, the only downside is I have to use the armies they give me. I was looking for iron hands, I love my orcs.

glad the dogs came into the video, it was super great already but dogs make better

I'm not very up on my Cities lore, so it's still very odd to me that the pirate elves are "anvil guard" and the dwarves are "greywater". From the outside it looks like that should be switched.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Sure, it's named after the place and the general nature of the geography/people. :)

I’m stuck atm I can’t find an army to stick with I have like 5 armies it loads of different stages I haven’t even fully painted a 2k list I just can’t find an army I love that keeps me playing em and painting and collecting 😂

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Sometimes it can be a journey, but you'll get there. :)

Kruelboyz are dirt cheap! But hard as hell to play right.

I'm glad GW is releasing Vanguard boxes to replace the Start Collecting boxes, understrength units being sold is just terrible.

I think I personally disagree with one of the criteria. I don't think that fragile armies are bad beginner armies necessarily. Having a fragile army will make you learn much faster in many cases. A big problem for beginners is the ludo-narrative dissonance. If a model's warscroll is in line with what it should be doing then that's great, but models where its use is unclear are tough to learn for newbies.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Hmmmm....it's a good thought. I would say the person has to be okay with losing a lot, because finesse armies are much harder to get your head around at first, so you almost by necessity lose.

@ZacharyEvans

Жыл бұрын

@@VinceVenturella For sure, and I think there's nuance to it. Sylvaneth have a great feel to them, but are very complicated, whereas idoneth are simpler while still having the right feel.

Not me weeping because I love vampires.

Having just started playing Idoneth instead of my usual Beasts of Chaos, I have to disagree with the placement. I think Beasts are the harder to play and more expensive of the bunch (plus the tzaangors are not easy to paint). Harder to play in there is more to keep track of with the summoning and monster rampages and shaman auras and herdstone auras. I constantly found I was forgetting some clutch rules from time to time. Plus it isn't a straight forward army to play being mostly made of paper. Also being a hoard/monster summoning army it can get rather expensive, not to mention that the terrain kit is a must buy as well. Playing Idoneth in comparison was a breath of fresh air. No summoning, the terrain is there but your whole army isn't tied into it, more glass hammer then just glass. Just following the Tides of Death table gives you a blueprint on how to build your army and how to play it. Also, as Tom mentioned, they look good with contrast ;)

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

That is very reasonable. :)

hm, hey vince, you really could do another round of rating the starting boxes one day, now that we have all these vanguard boxes, almost everything has changed

@VinceVenturella

3 ай бұрын

And now at least some of them will change again, into Spearhead boxes. :) (which we will certainly rate).

The one thing I disagree with is how "ease of winning" is factored into some armies. It isn't easy to win the game as a starting player, even with the mechanically simple armies (like Nurgle), it takes time and effort to get good enough at the game that you will win consistently (or even at all). Do simple armies make it easier to over come those hurdles, absolutely, but some armies were pushed down because of difficulty of winning with them, ratehr than just their rules as a whole.

No Maggotkin of Nurgle in your SC section?

@marc-andredeslauriers7687

Жыл бұрын

Nvm, you addressed it later in the vid. XD

I feel SoB should be higher on the cost front personally, I guess maybe the small giants might bring that down a bit but 3-4 Megas costing £300-400 (and that is from 3rd Party, not GW) is kinda obscene, and rumour is that is going to get more expensive with the new variants being added to the kit (so a large part of the cost is redundant Sprues).

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

The key is they price for the army, not for the kit. The basic 2000 points will run the same or more with most armies, the challenge is those summoning armies to the left, you are needing to collect way more than 2K just for the basic army, and that doesn't cover if you want a full range of options.

What about beast claw raiders ?

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

It’s a good point, they are very much in the top left.

No Nurgle Vanguard box?

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

We mentioned it, it was not on the SC page.

The goblins have slowly eroded Vince's rat bias. A fun book might push him over the edge.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

It could happen, I do love goblins in D&D

Tom, is that a Nording?

@ThomasLyons

Жыл бұрын

Savinelli

👍👍

Fec is the best start collecting for sbg

Too bad they discontinued the Beastclaw Raiders SC or Ogors would be right there with Ironjawz.

Lumineth Vanguard box?

@SlamTackle

Жыл бұрын

Also the best value Warcry. I guess it's peak humour to say "elfs bad", but it's not very helpful to exaggerate their cost.

@starlord157

Жыл бұрын

I think elves have complex rules.

@starlord157

Жыл бұрын

Just realized you meant box section. I think they are only counting the boxes currently for sale.

@user-rs3ir7zt7t

Жыл бұрын

@@starlord157 preorders are due this Saturday and they say they run this show annually. Could have made a exception for the box

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

It wasn't in the list yet, but it would be a weak buy from me.

Message for the algorithm gods. P.s. Team Tom all the way baby!

I always felt Morten were actually great value points per cash value of the model.. bunch of mort and nag ash is a very cheap start

Slaanesh is likely out of stock because of 40k

Like for doggos and Cathy surviving the hurricane

Are we really talking about warhammer while smoking a pipe ?? I love it !

Why do you think no expensive but easy to play? One explanatory trend could be expensive tends to mean lots of models, whilst easy to play tends to mean not too many models

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

I think that could be right, at the same time, there is also a summoning correlation there as well (pushing it in both directions).

Look at the difference in GD competitions. In America there is a small Skink slayer sword, and in Europe (we will conquer that little island sooner or later) there is a giant murdering the shit out of a sea monster. JK of course. I love the Skink to death. But this joke was just waiting to be made 100 times. I am such a creative mind... Also two major slayer sword NOT being space marines OR 40k. 👍

I strongly vibe with Gitz and Skaven but then tier list tells me not to start them.

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

So that’s always my fear, that in saying this, someone will not pick up something they might truly love. That’s why I started with rule 0 as it were. If you really vibe with them, then go for it, just understand that it might be a longer and more difficult road of learning and playing.

@andrewmarkowski308

Жыл бұрын

@@VinceVenturella No need to worry I already have the Start Collecting Box. While I wait for the new Gitz book I'll try to understand the game more by playing my SCE.

Omg. Hi dogs.

If the Slaanesh Start Collecting is trash, what wouldn't be trash for that army?

@VinceVenturella

Жыл бұрын

Well, there is Sigvald...and...give me a few minutes.

Tom smokes a pipe?!??!! Sorry Tyler, Tom wins!!

.

I like pipe smoking Tom much better. 😊