Bro trade route node is hell OP.. The more trade routes you have the more they cost.. exponentially. Cutting this down to 25 is insanely powerful alone.

@emilhozan71

14 күн бұрын

I agree with this. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that without that dev, you have to weigh the trade route cost with the number of good surplus. For example, if a trade route costs 95 silver and I have 12 surplus for 8 a piece, it's not worth opening that route. Further, even if you did the next route would be much more expensive.

@shad0wmech

13 күн бұрын

Yeah Needing only 25 to start all trades is way better it means in places that can produce iron and clay etc you can do everything and switch what you're making and selling without using 280 wealth just to start a new one

@kyalurlich525

13 күн бұрын

It's only op in the first 2-3 years or if you have no rich deposits. If you have a rich iron deposit it's meaningless because once you start exporting weapons money becomes meaningless

@yondie491

13 күн бұрын

If you have a very productive cash crop, you'll only be saving, at most, a few hundred coin. Most techs are worth more than that. If it's a trade hub, then sure, but if it's focused, it's not worth it

@kornelobajdin5889

13 күн бұрын

plus focusing on farm and trade only is infinitely better since weapons and armour you can buy by trading. But food is always an issue.

I think rushing the two trade options is the best strat, being able to import everything you dont produce is massive. I have a 400 pop village that basically produces none of its own food and just manufactures products to sell. I only run taxes for one tick every few years because the income is so high.

My understanding is that bakeries output 2 bread per flour compared to the communal oven's 1. Essentially doubleing the output of all grain farming. This is from Strat's production table.

Berries… You just don’t use them;) Normal deposit gives about 250 berries in year. Rich doubles it to 500, but just for 1 point it doubles it again to 1000 berries in year! In example 1 morgen wheat on reach soil gives ~ 60-it turn in 120 flour-that turns in 240 bread through another 2 points in farming. So 1 point in rich deposit berries gives same food than 4 morgens wheat with 2 points allocated! And 4 morgens its just every year-so really you need 3x time more space for farms! Just 1 point-and its add new food type compared to 12 morgens wheat on rich soil!!!

Keep in mind everything we think we know now is subject to change as bug-fixes and balancing patches roll out. I don't fully agree with everything about the current design of the tech tree. 1) Some things locked behind development points does not make sense. Heavy plow, deep mining, and trading deals all make sense. But apples and sheep breeding does not make sense. Are your sheep neutered when you buy them and magically regrow their testicles when you buy the perk? 2) I don't think developments should be region-locked. If your goal is to take control of all 8 regions, you will get 42 tech points, which is enough to buy the whole tree. But A) you've earned it at that point B) the game is pretty much already over at that point. Why not let players keep their points? C) it's not like technology/knowledge is lost just because you've created a new settlement.

@thorwaldjohanson2526

14 күн бұрын

I think the idea is to have specialized regions, which makes sense. But the inter region trading needs to be flushed out more.

@tiestofalljays

14 күн бұрын

For a game that is designed for you to make use of multiple regions, the inter-region trading feels pretty terrible. Might as well just be completely starting from scratch every time you claim a new sector. Why we can’t send timber makes no sense to me.

@blackmage471

13 күн бұрын

@@thorwaldjohanson2526 100% Valid. Perhaps I'll feel different when domestic trading gets fleshed out?

Thanks for the tldr. Being a working professional I cant afford to watch every single video without fast forwarding which just sucks. But tldr is a superb addition! Liked, commented and subscribed! ❤

@italianspartacus

13 күн бұрын

My. Pleasure!! I'm the same way. Just hit me with the facts and let me get to where I need to be in the video!!

I'm not sure I would agree that it's "gamey" giving more land to a burgage plot that you plan to be a vegetable garden or a orchard. Those are basically small family farms, so I think them having a morgen's worth of land is reasonable

@TheTaxxor

14 күн бұрын

Yeah I don't see why it would need to be patched and I don't think it will. With the way markets work right now, it's even better to just have one house with a big vegetable garden instead of multilpe smaller ones because then everyone will create its own market stall once they have one carrot in their storage.

@magnetronmaaltijden

14 күн бұрын

The balance is the larger the plot the more time and labour it takes to farm it so it doesn't seem to me like there is anyting to even patch there.

@TheTaxxor

14 күн бұрын

@@magnetronmaaltijden And that's why you want to have a plot with a big garden and two houses on it so that you have 4 families working that garden once its level 3

@italianspartacus

14 күн бұрын

Oh I don't think they're inherently gamey at all. It's more that I don't like the practice of making 500ft long ones. I know the inherent balance, but part of the annoying thing about content creation is that I have to pre-empt certain comments and sometimes, if you don't explain things well enough - this being the case - you actually blow things in the other direction

@TheTaxxor

14 күн бұрын

@@italianspartacus but the plot size you’ve shown in the video while taking about making these giant plots was still pretty small, my vegetable gardens are usually around 1 morgen too

I don't think Veggie gardens are going to be patched away. nor should they. You can balance it, and maybe the balance is the family is taken away like as an artisan plot, but they are exactly what they need to be honestly

@magnetronmaaltijden

14 күн бұрын

It's balanced! The larger the field the more labour it takes to work it taking efficiency away from their other work you assigned them to do.

@rafox66

13 күн бұрын

​@@magnetronmaaltijdenAnd you'll have less space for extra burgage plots.

@chadfife3265

13 күн бұрын

Kinda....I have 10x lv3 veggie gardens. My food reserve is now over 4 thousand. With 3 thousand are veggies. I tried doing a very fertile wheat town... struggled to feed especially in late game.

@bethebullet6511

13 күн бұрын

@@chadfife3265 yea farming needs a buff that is for sure. I can't get my sheep to fertilize, i don't think that feature is implemented properly.

@CharChar2121

8 сағат бұрын

​@@chadfife3265 I've had the same experience. 1 giant farm feed my town better than like 10 acres of wheat. It's ridiculous.

Trading is is so good once you have the development

@osric729

14 күн бұрын

Yep.. I started in a good farming area, but I now import all of my raw materials and export surplus tier 3 products. Which tbh doesn't feel broken. That's how commerce works irl. I don't make a TON of wealth, but I am much more wealthy than wealthy than my friend's self-sufficient town and am resistant to seasons.

@Hockey-gn2tj

14 күн бұрын

Yeah , so op. I have an infinite iron deposit so I sell military weapons and iron while importing food and making absolute bank.

@baronkimble5378

14 күн бұрын

Trade is by far the best

@piotroszczyk7197

14 күн бұрын

@@Hockey-gn2tj wait but when i did that i had sell everything for 1 gold XD (so iron cost more than weapon ) how you don't overflow the market ?

@tiestofalljays

14 күн бұрын

Yeah, so much so that I struggle not taking it. I’m not saying it should be nerfed, I’m saying other things should be buffed. Maybe farming stuff will be improved once the bugs are ironed out. Might make the farming stuff more worthwhile.

You cannot use fallow to increase fertility beyond the areas starting fertility

As a Welsh man I didn't expect that stray shot..... but he ain't wrong!

So helpful as always. You are so right about using Early Access for learning and trying different things. On my first game, I took Trade Logistics and Better Deals because it bugged how exorbitant the tariff was. It worked quite well. Not sure which level of town, but had some Level 3s and had gotten into Farming, Bread Baking and Beer Making. I was playing with no competitors but was fighting bandits frequently. My starting zone was in the bottom corner and I kept fighting bandits in the upper corners and wishing I had the center region, kind of like Tic-Tac-Toe. As I have watched more videos and learned by playing, I decided to start a new game. First try at a new save, I got the center region with a Rich Iron deposit and Fertile land. I'm just starting but will go Charcoal Burning, Deep Mining and Heavy Plow for first points this time. I love your videos. Thanks!

I was about to make a comment about "Why is this video 30 minutes, there's so few choices here" but actually was worth it so props haha

I was waiting for this video from you! Thank you :)

As a welshman, I second that sheep statement **bites lip**😅

@italianspartacus

Күн бұрын

HAHAHAHA

Great video and soooo much to look forward to as the game develops. Thanks for sharing! It has been so much fun playing with early access. It has been interesting to see some content creators confuse what they think is a game bug when what I see is Greg adding the human element to his simulation. Rallying troops doesn't automatically guarantee they all make it to muster at the same time for example. Or others wondering why they have people waiting or doing things other than their primary family tasks. Do all members of your family do exactly whta the rest of your family wants them to do!?!?!?! He has so elegantly programmed in human factors... there is some balancing and rebalancing to do, but I love that he has allowed us to start playing now.

informative video thanks! subbed!

1:04 Wales mentioned! \o/ Honestly, it's a rare thing when anybody outside of the UK even knows Wales exists lol

@diamon999

14 күн бұрын

But sadly, its almost always some kind of slur against us - such as the sheep "joke". We do like other animals in Wales - Dragons woul be favourite 🙂

@kristijangrgic9841

13 күн бұрын

Well I think everyone in Europe knows Wales, like prince of Wales or Welsh football team in Euro competiitions under Bale

My best through, I started with Rich Stone and Rich Hunting ground with really poor fertility. I leverage the Trade perks to get resources like Iron Ore, Barley and Flax for 2 gold each. I was able to export Stone, Clay tiles, shoes and a few others items to get a net positive trade.

So, the apples do NOT take 3 years. You start getting apples from the first harvest year, but not as much (enough for start). And after the 3rd year, you start getting a lot more (maybe double? Haven't done the math).

@rampdavidson6397

14 күн бұрын

Yeah I thought the tooltip was clear on that. I didn't notice yield any for a couple years though, but I think it's just because they got consumed before I could notice them in surplus

@yondie491

13 күн бұрын

He specifically said the yield will be less, not non-existent

What you can add to the meat hunting side is the hunting policy that increases respawn rate… you can have 3 hunters on a rich deposit instead of just 1 with that policy and get 1000s meat

15:05 LEGEND! I stood up and clapped!

@italianspartacus

13 күн бұрын

GOLD STAR MUTHA FUCKAAAAAAAAAA

You are great. As usual.

Biggest weapons dealer in Goldhof , Trade Logistics and Deep Mines are a must.

Would the corners of the map (granted that it has 2 trading routes outside the map) be more beneficial to go place 2 trade posts for market manipulation? … early game have one for a “cash crop” and late game for a massive payout per month? Would this not bottleneck AI traders from more than 8 trade routes? Thoughts?

one thing ive noticed is that with the heavy plow its still pretty slow, just having 4-8 people or so just to plow the land instead is much faster

Good tips. But you left an important piece of information. The 6 development points you get are only for that region where your village resides and not the entire map. Plus, if you go into another region. You get a new set of 6 points and the unlocks do not carry over from the other region you were in. In addition, when it comes to trading, you don't need multiple trading posts in each region. Since the game has what is called the Pack Station where you can transport goods from one region to another via a villager and a mule.

@italianspartacus

13 күн бұрын

Great shout. I loosely said that they're unique to the area you invest them in, but I don't think I reinforced it enough. Thank you dude!!

@stormfire962imastarcitizen5

13 күн бұрын

@@italianspartacus You're welcome and thank you for your tips on the video as well. As far as the Pack Station I am still testing it.

I think i played enough of manor lors for now, gonna wait for next updates, the market system it's so broken.

Removing the Trade tariffs is the most overpowered thing in the game and I don't think any other tech tree does anything when you just go full trade. It basically transforms all surplus you have into every single resource you might ever need for no cost at all. You can just cut down trees for the rest of the game and get all clothing, all food, even the firewood by just making shields, bows and wooden parts. Everything while also making infinite money. You dont even need to build berry pickers or hunter camps on medium difficulty if you rush trade and just sell planks to buy everything else!

Trade logistics is not for sparing money mid/late game, it is to basicaly speed up the industrialization by 1 year :)

I'm sold on charcoal first because it helps in getting more out of your trees. Always seem to have enough food, but struggle with fuel. I look at apples-rye as worth it because then my fields don't have to be as big to get the same food. Thinking hard now about Beekeeping now though along the lines of charcoal, more for less effort. Have drumbeating on boards a lot about how the trade branch is broken and OP - effectively perk 1 throws out the value framework of all goods to get started, perk 2 also to a lesser extent. Think it should be based on discounts to opening, tariffs according to game difficulty setting.

Correction: Berries are turned into dyes 1 to 1, unless my game is bugged. I was wondering why dyes are so underwhelming, selling for 4 instead of 3 is really bad but would have been great if it was like you said and that 1 berry is turned into more dyes.

@italianspartacus

13 күн бұрын

Thank you so much for this dude! Appreciate your keeping me honest :)

Referring to getting the meat from deer as harvesting isnt actually a weird way to say it. It's what we say as hunters and fishers and is the language used by the state wildlife agencies. We harvest wildlife just like we harvest fish or we harvest crops. Harvest just means the process of gathering a natural resource or crops.

Droughts are in the game and they are devastating as they can reduce your yield to almost zero. I actually think the drought mechanic is too harsh right now, so unless it's made more balanced I'd recommend to turn it off in the settings.

For the hunting camp, if you're in a low fertility region and you take the hunting grounds policy, staff with 1 family, it will allow you to hunt year round.

For me, double berry amount and charcoal production are my 1 & 2 in almost all playthroughs as I'm fighting low inventory for long-term survival. Managing a growing population while trying not to starve is a challenge as your enemies are pretty much stronger than you for the first few winters. Farming needs a little more of a buff as I feed my town better with chicken eggs than large wheat fields in fertile land.

So, tools are currently not used in the gameplay at all? I'd propose to have them used for building. Like, if unassigned familie(s) do construction, only the number of the family members for which there are tools in the city storage can actually work on the construction site. Also for those who build their market stalls. Or/and there can be tools possessed by households directly.

@italianspartacus

14 күн бұрын

It's probably specialIed tools that'll be used for specific higher tier buildings me thinks

@thorwaldjohanson2526

14 күн бұрын

Tools would make sense for lvl3+ upgrades. They used to be required in the open beta.

@BiglerSakura

14 күн бұрын

@@thorwaldjohanson2526 in workshops?

@BiglerSakura

12 күн бұрын

@@italianspartacus BTW, it looks like candles are also not used currently.

@AttiliusRex

11 күн бұрын

@@BiglerSakura tools were needed for workshops suchs as vegatble garden, the upgrades costed tools rather than money, which makes a lot of sense

I always go for "Deep Mining" with "Iron Rich" region only. Second will be the "Fertilty". So much food with unlimited iron to trade makes insane amounts of money and sustainability. Also enough amount of swords, halberds etc. I think it is the best strategy so far. Selling unlimited Tools or Iron Slabs makes so much money so that you can cover other things easily with trade money.

I feel like the best way to learn the. Game is by playing on the hardest difficulty and learning what really impacts your growth and opinion

On my ‘combat play through, I restarted until I got the middle zone, as seems very rare.

What does "passive income of meat" mean? What is the change in the mechanic of Meat when using this node?

I'm curious about something, and since you seem to like to test things out, perhaps you'd like to find the truth of this. During one of my games, I had built a logging cabin right on the border of my lands and the inaccessible outer edge of the map, where a forest was. I kept seeing my people go across the border, disappear, return, then an ox go in, disappear, and return with a log. I wasn't able to verify if I was getting anything from it, because of my main logging camp going, but it made me wonder. Is it possible to farm the inaccessible forests?

Apple, Charcoal, Trapping, Heavy Plows, Forest Management, and then ...

I think heavy armor development might seem kinda pointless because by the time you really need it, you're probably making enough regional wealth to just import it.

Currently I feel like Trade is broken. You can't really trade anything either import or export without it skyrocketing or plummeting in price and completely shutting down a whole trade lane. If you decide to sell say 100 Roof tiles because you have an abundance of it, it will drop the price to where it's either barely profitable anymore or completely plummet and stop the trade for months to come. Same for import, if you import to much the price will take off to a point where it's not really sustainable anymore. Currently you can only trade in very small amounts of goods at a time without this happening and those small amounts won't make even the smallest dent in your bigger industries.

@magniankh

13 күн бұрын

Most towns will have 2-3 decent exports. You don't need to continually sell the same item to make money. Just sell when you have a surplus and you'll do fine.

trade route is nice but i just find myself micro managing my crafting and buying non stop lol. I have to rotate items every 1-2 months. I feel like the market also gets flooded very fast but its still manageable

The two trade perks are must haves in your starting area, and you really should pick them early.

@Lornext

13 күн бұрын

They are must haves in every single starting area ever. They are so overpowered that I feel like they ruin the game.

@larrylindgren9484

11 күн бұрын

@@Lornext If they ruin the game don't pick them. Taking the complete broken path is an option you shouldn't rely on. It's getting nerfed you can bet the farm so to speak on it.

I made an Orchard in my first playthrough a couple days ago. Produced apples fine...and then they just sat in the house. No one took them to the granary (despite having 2 ppl working there), and none were sold at the market directly either. They just sat in the house all year. Think Orchards may be bugged atm.

@christinebuckingham2480

12 күн бұрын

Need more people in your granary to distribute goods. Make sure your orchard is on a plot with two families to begin with also.

Just my 2 cents on trade, you dont need to have a cash crop to get started. If youve got trees, youre golden. -Get the charcoal dev point. -Bite the bullet and pay full price for the charcoal route and get a good flow of cash early on until you've flooded the market. -Use that wealth to get what you need to rush the other 2 dev points. -Focus om planks while charcoal is flooded (keep making it as needed for your town though) -Get a joiner and a fletcher when you can and use their excess as trade fodder. (Rotate shields and wood parts as they flood the market. -As you're doing this, expand your specializations and other artisans and use the wealth you got to import raw mats and refine them. -Export the surpluses. I dont know other people's pace for the game, but i used this to decent succes and reached a town with a full retinue, 2.5k wealth, and a fully happy and growing pop.

@tiestofalljays

14 күн бұрын

Even simple planks can get your money started. Can easily afford oxen, etc. just by selling planks. And planks from the sawpit get produced super quickly.

@witchofskye1961

14 күн бұрын

Roof tiles are also pretty easy to make and even a basic deposit is enough to produce a massive surplus quickly. Between that and wood, there's always a way to get rich!

@bimajuantara

14 күн бұрын

​@@tiestofalljaysyep, true. I just speedran the hard difficulty using that strat. Even better, just sell firewood right away to speed up the income (cap at 50->250 surplus once your pops are settled)

I let fields fallow for 3 years and fertility never increased? What have I done wrong?

@Lornext

13 күн бұрын

Well, there is your problem... You are building farms. :D Just use your points in the merchant tree and trade for everything.

@Aggies44

13 күн бұрын

@Lornext haha right. But I love making farm towns with a nice little dense center. I'm slowly figuring things out but I just don't get what to do here.

@christinebuckingham2480

12 күн бұрын

Fallowing won't ever make your fertility go above where is started. Only useful to restore fertility used when growing crops.

@larrylindgren9484

11 күн бұрын

@@Lornext Trade needs a major nerf. Selling let's say stone should not fuel everything you need by trading. Farms are in the game it should almost force you in the direction to survive. Trading for everything should never work in any game. If it does it's broken.

Berry deposits continuously grow during spring and summer so you can go hogwild without worrying until fall but by the time you get into fall you should be harvesting your wheat. So to me the double berry yield is not that great especially if you have a rich source and or good sources of meat and fertile soil

That "Desirable surplus" in trade is sometimes inconvenient. I'd like to have an option to buy or sell a fixed number of things as well.

@tiestofalljays

14 күн бұрын

Where it really gets annoying is when you’re buying weapons. If you form the militia, it screws with all your stock values. The game thinks you don’t have any helmets if the people are wearing them….. Super annoying.

@BiglerSakura

14 күн бұрын

@@tiestofalljays Exactly! But with "flowing processes" like food production and consumption, it is also uncertain. Like, how many surplus steaks should I keep? Enough for the next month? Or maybe zero is ok, because the number reserved for consumption via market shouldn't show as surplus? Or seasonal produce - should I keep a 3-month-consumption number of berries to eat during winter?

I think the trade perk is a bit overrated...i just destroy bandit camps and i make sure i get a second village to barter with u can do this in year one u can chose which region so its kind of easy to pick and just produce all the goods urself and trade with urself My first vilalge is a farming village while the other produces weapons and things related to iron The stone and clay isnt such a critical rescource and by the time clay does become somewhat critical ur already swimming in money and probly already on the 4th village which can also just buy that import route on the cheap and then barter with ur other villages

i can afford only 5 points, cause the large town is a victory for rise to prosperity and it locks the game in the infinite victory screen

I assume this is for the original release not the beta update

Bee keeping doesn't seem to scale late game at all. Maybe your apiary count should increase by 1 for every milestone you reach. (6 available points, 6 total apiaries.) With the wax perk maybe bees becomes worth it. Farming is HARD. It requires so much labor and the yields are meh. And people drink ale way too fast. It's a late game build at best. The 2 points into trade are the best in the game. Easy money early and you can offset any region's drawbacks. I find ale to be the biggest blocker to a town. You either need to farm or trade for it. You can only farm so much because it disappears so fast, and with trade you won't necessarily have a good enough cash crop so early in the game to trade for barley. I think the tavern and ale needs some balancing.

@yondie491

13 күн бұрын

Ale is for level 3 Burgage plot, not really an early game thing. As for when you DO use it... Simply don't employ anyone at the tavern until you're ready to level up those Burgage plots. They'll be annoyed but it's worth it to be able to control when you upgrade

@pinch1loaf

12 күн бұрын

@@yondie491 On harder difficulty the lack of ale really tanks your approval in a settlement with level 2 plots. It's damn near impossible to keep up with the demand without importing goods. The trade developments that cut the tariffs are a must for cheap barley/malt. A town of 30-40 pops will drain your approvals in 2-3 months without ale at the tavern.

The cicadas!!!

Use RICH CLAY and RICH IRON. Get the deep mine. EXPORT. Import everything you still have exponential income. ITS OP as hell

@larrylindgren9484

11 күн бұрын

Very shallow game play. If it's not nerfed into the ground the Dev shouldn't be fired.

If you get a rich animal spawn, you could double dib in the hunter/gatherer tree with the double meat from animals and then get the double animal breeding policy.

@robqwert2696

14 күн бұрын

Hunting tech seems kinda mid. And i am too lazy to test actual value you get

@Carnefice

14 күн бұрын

​@@robqwert2696so you don't know what you're talking about, got it

@rampdavidson6397

14 күн бұрын

@@Carnefice They said "seems". It's an observation that readily accepts the possibility of being wrong.

@Carnefice

14 күн бұрын

@@rampdavidson6397 they? I think that's one person

@rampdavidson6397

14 күн бұрын

@@Carnefice oh you haven't got a firm grasp on basic English yet. My bad

my manor lord mod wish list 1 wooden parths that generate passive in come 2 a corps pit that generates 1 raw ore per 2 dead bodys buried [ a bandet got to leave a coin or a sward right 3 forced eviction mod 4 calvelry men mod 5 vilage fair mod - lasts one year then disapiers- 25 to buy mellea event [win one jester gives 1 happynes for 1 year] 50 to buy cavelry joustin event [gives hero for 1 year] 6 mariage mod for lord and tier 3 famalys 7 convert well into pond mod fish stoke cost 100 and lasts 3 years 8 JUISTING FIELD REAGANAL FAIR MOD 9 orcherd mod 10 list of tradeing famlys mod 11 turn well into pond mod [cost 50 to stock with fisg for 3 years]

DON'T take "Trapping" it does'nt work at the moment and is a waste of points! I did some testing by first killing off my hunting grounds. I had four hunting logdes that were close by the forest (a 0.5 morgen land being inbetween). They startet "laying out traps" in the first month but then never checked on them. Whenever I looked at what the families were doing there was one family member searching for the killed off hunting ground in vain while the rest was "waiting". After 3 months my 4 hunting lodges produced 1 (one) unit of meat. Dont take it. "Advanced Skinning" being locked behind "Trapping" isn't worth it either since you have to effectively spend 2 points on it

When I buy lots of a product it gets more expensive because demand is up, but when demand is high for my product it gets saturated and price drops

I really hate that you cannot relocate where your subjects will live.

@yondie491

13 күн бұрын

I mean... Home demolition works really well

no region is guaranteed 2 rich resources

@Jonjon13Jonjon13

13 күн бұрын

He literally explains in the video: If you have only "one" rich resource, the other one is hidden: FERTILITY. Apparently there's always two, if you can't see the second, you will have very fertile lands.

@yondie491

13 күн бұрын

Yes Yes they are Every region

If your first choice isn't Apple orchards, you're setting yourself up for a bad time.

@Denek_23

14 күн бұрын

Disagree. There is multiple ways to succeed in that game. You don’t have to take orchards at all and be fine.

@yondie491

13 күн бұрын

There are far too many options for apples to be a singular fail point

@christinebuckingham2480

12 күн бұрын

Not a good one for the first perk since it costs 50 silver to turn your plot into a orchard and that's all you start with. I do 2 veggie plots and one ox with that money at the beginning. Maybe the second point would be good here though.