god bless you GearSkeptic. You're a camping superhero.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

(wonders about a Superman-style "S" logo with a G attached)

I’m cancelling all backpacking, hiking, and camping trips until I see Part 3. Please hurry!

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Ahhhhh! Pressure!

WOAAAAH the elephant in the room is a huge one indeed!!! Can't believe how much more fuel at just 2mph!! I think after this series you've convinced me to cold soak my food for eternity... save me a headache and ibuprofen weight LOL LOL. Just kidding, I love nerding out on this stuff, thanks again!

As a trained scientist, this is some quality content

@GearSkeptic

10 ай бұрын

Thanks very much!

This guy. THIS GUY. He answered questions I didn't even know I had.

The Art of boiling water - I love it! BIG THANKS from Germany

your the king man. literally getting a masters degree from watching these videos

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Very kind of you!

Yeah Mr. Skeptic! Yeah science!

Not the backpacking hero we asked for, but definitely the one we need. Love your videos and approach to these questions.

@GearSkeptic

8 ай бұрын

Ha! Thanks very much. I do appreciate that.

this guy is the Project Farm of hiking/camping. goated

Just want to thank you for all your videos, the nutrition series cleared out a lot of noise for me and helped me better understand nutritional choices on the trail and life in general. I'm a gear freak too, so I'll be sticking around for whatever else you are willing to bring to the table (pun intended).

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! I appreciate that and am very glad if any of it can help.

Shit like this is why I love this channel

Just wanna say much I love your videos. Not only am I a pedantic nerd who loves to see the real life numbers/stats of various camping appliances, I also appreciate what you describe as “perspective.” Particularly your early videos on backpacking food. I may not remember the exact numbers when I’m actually out backpacking, but having learned the ground work of what is efficient vs inefficient or what are good general principles to follow has made my hikes a lot smoother. Please please please keep up the good work GearSkeptic . I’m pretty sure you’re the only KZreadr and maybe even only reviewer in any format that will put in the work like this and present it in a way that’s easily understandable and most importantly, factual!

@GearSkeptic

10 ай бұрын

Thank you so much! I really do appreciate that. If any of it can help, it makes it worth it!

Great follow-up to part 1. I've known about the practical side of wind on stoves in an out in the field sense for many years but it's so nice to see a more scientific demonstration giving gas usage figures. Thanks. 👍👍

The videos on this channel are fantastic. With all the material on youtube, it's amazing to find info that you literally can't get anywhere else.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! I really appreciate that. I'm obviously not trying to compete with the popular channels, just looking to fill a tiny niche.

@dansklrvids7303

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic Bring on part 3! :)

Great video and helpful advice in your conclusion! Low wind use low flame. Medium wind use medium flame. High wind use high flame.

Great video. Thanks. This is important work you are doing, doing your part to help the planet. Your video is confirming my recent field experience. We used up our whole cannister on the first day camping out boiling only about 5 times in medium wind. Now I have a Soto Windmaster on order for the next trip and will use shelter in higher winds. Cliff

@GearSkeptic

6 ай бұрын

Thanks! And, stay tuned. I am working on Part 3 right now, testing the performance results of adding various 3rd party windscreens.

This kind of content really meets a need part of my brain desires. Also helps me be a more efficient backpacker. 12/10

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Awesome!

The Perun of backpacking youtubers. Fantastic content keep it up, I was riding a rollercoaster of emotions after having bought the BRS, hopefully some basic wind screens will keep it in the game.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I suspect a small stove and pot with windscreen is going to be very hard to beat for Weight Efficiency, but am curious to test by how much :)

@KarltheKrazyone

Жыл бұрын

That was a crossover I was not expecting, but I find nothing to disagree with.

And once again thank you for the crazy amount of work you did here. Now onto the last part.

Naturally, the next question is both windscreens, and most importantly - heat exchanger pots. You already have the setup and method sorted, so you might as well. THAT would be really interesting. I use both methods, and subjectively, I seem to get at least a 30% improvement. Kudo's for all the effort, and a great series.

@GearSkeptic

11 ай бұрын

Yes! Part 3 is planned for windscreens, and Part 4 for heat exchangers, so I can hopefully compare an ultralight stove and screen combo to a Jetboil and others.

@JohannSwart_JWS

11 ай бұрын

Great! Subscribed!@@GearSkeptic

Always a good day when a new GearSkeptic video releases!

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

😊

Best reviews I've ever seen. Thank you

My best windscreen results came not from a ground-connected windscreen, rather a pot-connected windscreen. Using the same 0.005" Titanium windscreen material (e,g. Dutchware), but securing it halfway up the pot (e.g ss-cable-tie or spot-weld) with a 1/8" white-ceramic insulation, it allows super-heated airflow halfway up the pot's sides. Thus the windscreen extends only an inch below pot-bottom. That inch (to inch and a half) both blocks the wind and contains heat under and against pot-sidewalls. Thus, it aids in wind and without wind, yet weighs only a few-grams. (more...) While it looks like Jetboil's heat-sink idea, it's actually much lighter and more effective means to encapsulate stove's hot-air around the whole pot, rather than attempting to conduct more heat through massive metal fins. Construction: Simply cut windscreen material to size, wrap around pot and spot-weld, leaving 0.010" space for airflow up around pot-sides. A fold on the extended end is less sharp and should be bent with heat to ensure a nice rounded edge. OR... Cut windscreen material to size, plus the 1/8" or less space for insulation, wrap around pot and secure with a ss-zip-tie from Lowe's. This configuration weighs a few more grams, but is adjustable and removable (should one want to try it out before committing to spot-welding one's favorite pot).

@GmailNexus

3 ай бұрын

Sounds like an interesting concept. Can you elaborate on the Ceramic Insulation? How does it work? Also I didn't quite get the order of things: Pot, Airpocket, Titanium Foil, Ceramic Insulation OR Pot, Ceramic Insulation, Titanium Foil?

@tomnoyb8301

3 ай бұрын

​@@GmailNexus - Make a channel by bending 0.1mm Ti sheet to capture 1/8" high-temperature insulation (they call it 'ceramic,' but it feels like batting) top and bottom as shown in the detailed engineering drawing below. The smaller the 'lip,' while still containing the ceramic, the better. Ti Ceramic Pot | | _ | | | | | | | | |

@GmailNexus

3 ай бұрын

@@tomnoyb8301 Awesome, Thank you so much

23:12 The angled supports you mention later is also why this happened. The wider bowl sitting higher is allowing the bowl burn to be overwhelmed faster, as indicated by the loss of red glow at 3mph (22:42). This didn't happen with the pot at 3mph (17:42).

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Very interesting!

Project Farm, meet Project Campsite! More fantastic data. Thanks GearSkeptic!

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, and you are most welcome!

A bit late, i know, but I like your extreme thoroughness on these videos. I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but when comparing the BRS and PR Deluxe in weight.. Yes, the PR is heavier... but you'll need to carry an ignition source to start the BRS while the PR has a piezo igniter. Just thought i'd mention it 🙂🙂 And yes i have a PR deluxe 😂

Thank you for all your videos! I just purchased a good wind shield from Flat Cat Gear. It's called Ocelot 6 for the Soto Windmaster 4 flex.

I would love to see an MSR windburner or a jet boil in the wind ! Great vids as always !

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Yes! Heat exchangers are planned for Part 4, to see how they might compare to a stove+screen combo.

@cherylwhistler8878

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic That is going to be spectacular- especially seeing the unvarnished math on cost of weight of heat exchanger with savings of fuel. I suspect it won't justify with an option of a simple foil windscreen... But I am ready (and enthusiastic) to accept the data regardless.

@TheBjameso

11 ай бұрын

@@cherylwhistler8878 My guess is that heat exchangers will be more weight efficient if it's a longer trip with something like 2 dozen boils or more. Looking forward the data as well.

Exactly why I fabbed a chimney/windscreen, though it also increases the efficiency of the stove by holding heat closer to the pot longer (up the side).

For part 3 comparing the screens vs "just digging a hole", as I've learned back in the day, would be interesting. Especially since you might be carrying a trowel with you anyway.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I’m thinking about use of basic obstacles for impromptu screens, like hiding from the wind behind a tree, or your backpack.

@GeekfromYorkshire

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic Windscreens with canister-top stove can if too hugging close can overheat the pot stand part of the stove and arguably puts the canister itself at more risk. So I'd be thinking of a distant windbreak (e.g. use your backpack, stones, natural barriers, etc) for stove-top. For remote-canister the flame is lower down so tend to be slower windspeed, plus any natural windbreaks will work better, and if you were to bring a closer windshield it would have less of a safety concern as the canister is outside of the windscreen. I'm also thinking laterally, I've been settling on a 3-pole hiking setup with trekking poles x2 + a backup CF pole, which means most of the time I've got a spare pole, so adding a tarp I can make a shaped between tent+tarp a tall wide distant windbreak (extended vestibule) . That would tend to reduce the wind effect, hence a wide pot on a low flame previous rules should apply. I have Toaks 95mm, 103, 115, 118, 130ml pots in 550, 600, 700, 900ml sizes. I also tend to nest pots so e.g. 700 D130 outside a 550 D118.

@jakeaurod

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic Would cooking inside a tent be too risky? And what techniques, tent fabrics and designs, or other tools might ameliorate that risk?

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

@@jakeaurod They all say not to do it. Tent fabrics can go up quickly and you might get hurt before you can evacuate, especially if you're sitting in your sleeping bag and all zipped up inside. That disclaimer being said, I've done it...carefully. The precaution that comes first to mind is to get a canister stand to help prevent tipping. You can get small, folding 3-legged ones that will effectively widen the base quite a bit. Obviously, also clear a flat spot so nothing will catch flame or knock your stuff over. Perhaps a safer compromise is to cook outside the actual tent, but inside the protection of your vestibule. Just be wary that the wind might gust, and push fabric near the flame when you thought you were clear. Never leave it unattended.

@frstesiste7670

Жыл бұрын

I don't cook inside a tent in bear country if it can be avoided, but don't see any problem doing it elsewhere (by inside I mean in the vestibule). Of course, I'll only do it if it's inconvenient doing it outside. After all I'm not on a hike or cross-country skiing trip to sit inside a tent, but in bad/extreme cold weather cooking inside is basically the best way. I've mostly done it with a white gas stoves like a Whisperlite or X-GK which are extremely stable and I'd never do it with a stove with a gas canister as the only support. IMO something like the MSR LowDown (or basically anything that gets the stove off the canister) not only increase stability and safety, but also get the burner closer to the ground and makes it easier to shield from the wind. There are also options for hanging some stoves which makes for stable indoor cooking inside the main tent, but never tried those.

Yees! Made my day! Always great content

Thanks for your patience, thoroughness, and clear explanations!

Excellent stuff!

Thanks again for another outstanding video!

A true champion! Incredible data!

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Very kind of you!

I was waiting so bad for a new video 😍 thank you 😊

Be sure to include in your heat exchanger test a couple of non-integral or non-system pots like the Olicamp HTS or the Jetboil Stash pot. I have used both of these pots with an Amicus stove on longer trips. Fuel consumption is quite low. Wind effects as well. Also had very good performance using a Pocket Rocket Deluxe with a Jetboil GCS pot in strong, gusty conditions, right next to an MSR Windburner, similar results.

@GearSkeptic

11 ай бұрын

Already have the Stash, and will be sourcing some other pots for the tests! 👍🏼

great vid as always! I always recommend your channel to any backpackers i meet

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Thanks much!

You remain a National Treasure and must be protected at all costs.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Secret Service for KZreadrs?

As ever, super informative. Thank you for your efforts, they're very much appreciated.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

My pleasure! Always glad if it can help.

Omg, this is so freaking valuable. Amazing stuff mate!

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Thanks much! Glad if it can help.

Great video! Love the information and thank you for doing this.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

You are most welcome. I hope it helps!

Such amazing attention to documentation and detail. My brain (and I) thank you.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

You are most welcome, and thanks!

Thank you so much for this, I love all the data.

@GearSkeptic

3 ай бұрын

You are most welcome!

Thank you very much for your hard work and your dedication. It is greatly appreciated. Please keep making videos.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

You are most welcome, and I will! (albeit slowly 😏)

@emeryz10

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic, "Speed may not be their forte, but the one who works slowly and meticulously produces work of unparalleled quality."

unbelievable work. the major takeaways I always want are the neat tricks and knowledge like watching for those cherry red edges of the stove supports!

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Right on!

Thank you for a very informative video. I am anxious fot the windscreen episode. I am confident it will be excellant.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Thanks much! I will do my best :)

Another excellent video. You are doing God's work sir.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

😇

Much appreciate your thoroughness, and as usual, bravo! You must have settled thousands of person hours of online discussion on this topic :)

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Maybe started a few new ones 😉

You have done it again!! Thank you! Can't wait for the next episode on various windscreens! And I see from the comments that you are considering alcohol stoves at some point. Be still my heart! Hoping you can include a Trangia burner in there somewhere!! Wishing you the best.

@GearSkeptic

11 ай бұрын

I do have a Trangia and will make sure to include it!

I've been subbed for 3 months now, just posting my first comment. I'm so glad I found your channel, the deep dives you perform on equipment is exactly what I've been searching for. Too many channels will only say, "Well, this is good gear because.....) Then, go on to extole its virtues without explaining why, or comparing it to other similar types of equipment. "The Grayle" comes to mind, the greatest thing since sliced bread. So everything we used before was sub-par, and only now admitting it?, which I've been told, watching other channels. That's all for my ramblings, Thank You so much for your channel.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! It is very much appreciated, as you sort of hit on what I was hoping to accomplish with the channel. That is: to fill a neglected niche, not to become the most popular.

Oh you are good, you are real good, factoring in all relevant variables, thank you.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Much appreciated! Thanks. Can’t get absolutely everything, but I try 😉

@browsman2328

Жыл бұрын

if you have a mind to I wouldn’t mind if you tested the MSR Windburner. I have one and this spring I used it in winds gusting to about 25 mph and the only problem I had was lighting it because the wind kept blowing out my Bic. Once I got it lit no problem. Kinda wondering how much wind it will take.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Heat exchangers are planned for Part 4! After windscreens in Part 3, I’ll have a baseline to compare an ultralight stove/screen combo to a pot system like the MSR or Jetboil.

That's it! Thanks for watching my TED talk.

Oh Great & Powerful OZ ! I heed thy words

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

🤣

While doing the windscreen test, please test the "place a backpack to block the wind method" or "use the tree to block the wind method" or both, those have been my methods of choice over the years. And whilst they are not ideal (wind reflection, means the wind comes from multiple directions) they have made my boil times much faster and i'm assuming that as a proxy for fuel savings. Been loving every single video you have made. Thank you so much

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, and I will do that! I’m curious to see how much benefit can come from using improvised blocking, given that those methods wouldn’t require buying or carrying anything extra.

@foggs

Жыл бұрын

Also the sit pad held in place by some rocks method

Missed hearing from you, don't be such a stranger. Maybe smaller videos that share veteran hiker tips to fill the mean time between these in-depth scientific studies. Anecdotal and subjective info could be presented separately. Any stories you have about food prep, gear that has been a life saver, dissappointment, etc.? Story time is always fun.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

You actually read my mind. I was thinking about starting an independent series to address singular issues that would be much shorter videos and easier to produce.

Thanks for all this excellent work reported clearly and with a dry sense of humor. I want to note that the Triflex pot support for the Soto Windmaster gives a lower total weight than with 4-arm support (67 g vs 87 g) and thus lighter than the MSR PRD at 80 g, so that's another alternative if my cousin Graham Phobic ever tires of his BSR. And the Triflex supports are level and not angled if that helps.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Good to know! I will see if I can get one. Thanks!

@wanttogo1958

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkepticdon’t set your PRD aside before you do some cold weather testing as well below 40 degrees and above about 10 degrees. Testing done by Backpacking Light indicates pretty convincingly that the PRD, because of its design that compensates to some degree for the effects of cold on fuel vaporization and pressure differential caused by fuel use, is a superior stove in colder conditions relative to the Soto Windmaster. They both have been engineered to compensate for these cold weather challenges with isobutane but the design used by MSR in the PRD is apparently superior to what SOTO uses in their Windmaster. At least that was their conclusion.

Wow, again, so much to absorb, process, then put into practice. Still, I have gained some good principles to help me make informed decisions. Thanks for sharing

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Great to hear! That’s essentially why I do the tests for myself, as well.

@MarkYoungBushcraft

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic Just to give you something else to ponder, I am curious about the efficiency VS weight of pots with heat exchangers on them. You up for the challenge?

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

@@MarkYoungBushcraft I hope so! I’d like heat exchangers to be Part 4, so they can be compared to the better stove/screen setups that I can find for Part 3.

Intriguing counterintuitive results on the offset-from-center tests with higher wind. I suppose that as wind speed increases, the hot spot right above the burner, on the bottom of the pot becomes much more dominant relative to the rest of the flames - as you stated, due to the decreasing density of the said flames. Perhaps, past the tipping point, having that hot spot centered on the bottom of the pot allows for optimal heat distribution on the metal and into the water, (as well as maybe creating a better, more symmetrical, benevolent convection cycle in the water?) Also, if the hot spot is close to the wind-facing wall of the pot, it's basically closest to the coldest wall of the pot as well, likely increasing loses. Just some pontification! Love your videos and every pedantic moment of them!

@GearSkeptic

11 ай бұрын

Gives me an interesting (albeit impractical) idea: an array of maybe a dozen temperature probes at even intervals within the water of the pot so you can measure where (center bottom, edges, walls) and at what rate heat transfers into the water.

This was a very long video chock full of information. A little boring ...but 100% worth the watch. Very interesting AFTER having watched it haha

@GearSkeptic

4 ай бұрын

I’ll take it!

I still love my old Coleman dual fuel 500 series precisely for the wind protection it provides. Would enjoy a comparison to whethe le these new stoves are better given the fuel burn. Great content. Thanks

Great video. I now know, based on my experience and your video, that I hardly ever cook with my BRS in >2mph of wind exposure. Because the small canister usually lasts me at least 16 boils. I achieve this by placing my food bag and food items on the windward side (usually freeze dried meal pouches) and I also look for rocks in the environment. Would love if some sort of "improvised wind protection" was in Part 3 of your excellent series!

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Definitely! I will work out a few common or easily rigged improv methods to see how they compare. After all, there’s no weight penalty to using something already carried.

I never tought I would learn so much on boiling water on the trail, but here I am taking note at every of your videos. Thanks a lot for this, my friends will find me a bit intense on my next trip! Already, I’m learning that the effect of wind is greater than I imagined. I do carry a windscreen made of light aluminum foiled, I check your next video see if this make sense or not! I don’t know if it got mention at one point (so much information), but when comparing options weight, if I need to bring an extra canister (or bigger) canister in a trip, the weight of the empty canister should also be considered. My 227g canister weighted 374g when full, so 147g empty. If I use the BRS in the wind, and this force me to have two canister instead of one, it is 374g total more that i need to carry.

@GearSkeptic

3 ай бұрын

Thanks! And, yes. Canister weight gets discussed more in the next one 👍🏼

@nicolaslemay

3 ай бұрын

@@GearSkepticjust came here to edit my comment after watching your next video, but your answer was quicker! Thanks!

I'm impressed the BRS held its own though in ideal conditions. My go-to for winter and challenging weather has been the elusive "Reactor". The next step would be to source windscreen, cozy... Stop wind and retain heat in the container of choice. I am positive we can all attain somewhat remarkable results without having to spend many hundreds of virtual pesos.

Amazing content as always! I for one can not wait for the next installment of this. I submit the humble request to include an analysis of heat exchangers like on the bottom of a jet boil or the msr one that wraps around the outside. Particularly how much flame spilling do they help recapture!?

@GearSkeptic

8 ай бұрын

Yes! I plan to do heat exchangers after windscreens. It’s finally cold enough here for me to start testing. Got a LOT of boils to do…

Awesome as always. I do wish you had included a fully enclosed burner system like the MSR Windburner. It's efficiency in wind is superb, but where is the tipping point for weight vs. performance ? It's other features such as having a radiant burner head, bowl, strainer lid, cannister stand, and insulative sleeve/handle would have to be teased out, but the results would be edifying! Of course, essentially it has a built in wind screen (a safely designed one for cannister fuel) so maybe it will appear in the subsequent video. Side note: aluminum foil lids tend to blow off in wind right when you might expect the greatest gains from thier use, in my experience.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Heat exchangers are coming! I’m planning them for Part 4, to see how they compare to a conventional stove+windscreen combo in terms of both efficiency and total weight.

I figured wind would drop the efficiency, I didn't expect it to change that much. I also wonder how much of the extra heat loss in the wider pots comes from extra surface area for evaporation. A lid on a larger pot/bowl would weigh more of course but might do more to reduce heat loss.

Excellent myth busting using scientific method there. Would love to see something on alcohol stoves

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I do plan on it! I'd like to finish establishing all the baselines for gas, then I want to start cross-comparing with alcohol.

@sameerjoshi515

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic I'll be following the channel keenly. You've already influenced my choice of water filter.

Another excellent vid. Thanks! Confirms my suspicion that the fancier stoves only provide a tiny amount of resistance to the lightest breeze. If there is real wind (over 5mph), then a windscreen is necessary, no matter which stove you use. 34:17 With a good windscreen the BRS is very nearly as efficient as a more expensive and heavier stove. Looking forward to the windscreen tests!

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I'm leaning in your direction, but it will be fun to test! I suspect weight efficiency will be a problem for windscreens generally, but that would only get worse for bigger pots. It "feels" like the smaller pot will have the advantage because its windscreen will be lighter than one for a wider vessel. After that, I want to see in a Part 4 if an ultralight stove/screen set can beat the big heat exchanger systems :)

@billb5732

Жыл бұрын

A wind screen doesn’t have to be heavy. I have done some testing on trying to make a heat shield instead of a heavy HX pot (partial success so far). I will let you know if I get it working. EDIT: Woah, KZread went a little crazy there! (Fixed)

@billb5732

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic I sent you an email about my rough prototype 23g heat shield that is almost as efficient as a heat exchanger pot.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

@@billb5732 Saw it! Looks very interesting. I have begun to collect materials for some homemade stuff, but will also compare to some of the neat cottage industry stuff available.

@billb5732

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic Looking forward to it.

Great video. Even though a lot of conclusions can be arrived at by theory, it's good to know they bear out in practice. I do wonder, though, if the aluminum foil lid will stay on in that level of wind or if it will fly away. If so, maybe putting a weight on it, such as a tent stake, stick or rock on it would hold it down.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

The pot does have a lip, so you can actually crimp the foil down so it will stay on. But, then you have to be careful removing it when hot! In truth, I carry the carbon fiber one, but I see a lot of foil fans out there so I considered it for the video.

I Absolutely love your attention to detail and your scientific approach. No one, no one has or is doing what you are. This is fantastic information to store in our brains. I would like to see all of these results as they pretain with the variables of barometric pressure. Because you are working with pressurized canisters I'm also interested in the evaporation/atomization flow rate factors at various atmospheric pressures. Pressurized Thermal flow rate variances with positive wind flow at different temperatures. A shame you can't also add elevation factors. As an example, using your present test parameters, is barometric pressure affective in fuel consumption? Example 2, is there a difference in fuel consumption at 2mph when the wind is +40F vs 0F? Great job, Sir. Looking forward to more of your experiments.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Thanks much! Unfortunately, I don’t have a way to do altitude testing, but come winter I’d like to see about some colder weather tests.

@SpyC7277

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic I hate to say it, fore, I don't want to label you, however, you are on your way to being the foremost expert on this specific subject. You use the scientific method and quantify a result that is repeatable. I respect and love your data as well as appreciate your work. You should publish! It would definitely be a standard.

"Gander" ....appreciate the humor

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Somebody gets me! 😆

20:50 My explanation of this is that the primary source of energy loss when heating water is heat of vaporization. The radiative effect is actually quite small by comparison. But the rate of this vaporization (sub-boiling point) will depend on the concentration of water vapor in the air in contact with the water surface. At a certain point if no new air is circulated in the local concentration will reach a maximum and no additional water will vaporize until boiling is reached, thus nullifying this source of heat loss. But Increasing the wind speed will ensure new air will always be in contact with the water surface. This effect will naturally be greater for the wider pots and higher winds than narrower pots and lower winds. It would seem the increased rate of sub-boiling vaporization for the large pot caught up with its more efficient heat transfer at higher wind speeds.

A thought on the decreased efficiency conundrum with off-centered containers and wind. As the wind increases some of that wind hits the pot and travels down not just off to the sides. It would then travel down and hit the burner displacing outward from there. Initially in low wind that might help as the downward air would have little effect or possibly even force some of the heat back down and then under the container. In higher wind tough the downward air disperses the flame to greater and greater degrees before it even get under the container reducing how much actually reaches it in the first place. Just a hypothesis, I'm not a thermal engineer nor did I stay at a Holiday in last night.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I like it!

Soto is more efficient in windier conditions than the MSR, because there are 4 pot supports, not 3. The Soto pot supports, although fiddly to install, help block more of the wind.

I used empty freeze dried meal pouches creased/folded lengthwise, then leaned the v-shaped pouch against the pot as a windscreen. You can use up to three pouches by overlapping them while leaving the valve handle exposed.

Isnt the most energy lost from the open top of the vessel? So a wider pot with a lid could potentially be more efficient under high winds than the regular one with a lid? Very nice to hear, that you will test windscreens. I assume only the very light ones (e.g. titanium foil) will be worth it.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I did most of these tests with a lid. Relative heat loss will probably depend on whether you mean by convection, evaporation or radiation. A lid made more of a difference with a wider pot (Part 1), but that would be because the wider pot was losing more through the top. Here, I was referring to how heat loss tends to be fastest where the temperature differential is greatest, or from that part of the pot that gets hottest.

@martinerhard8447

Жыл бұрын

​@@GearSkepticoh yes sorry. I just watched it again and now see, that in your comparison overview at 23:48 you tested with lids on.

“I’m a conservationist at heart, so what I cherish is saving fuel”, said after burning through dozens if not a hundred fuel canisters. Just joking, I seriously appreciate all the hard work you do. I originally came to your channel to fix my hiking nutrition (amazing results, especially recovery mix) and now stay for the PhD level of detail of the scientific method. You are amazing

@jacobpoucher

Жыл бұрын

dozens? lol hundreds really? my guess is maybe 4-5 and thats being generous.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

LOL! Fair point ;) I actually did both videos by rotating through 5 of the largest (450g) canisters. I started a few new canisters near the end, even though the original 5 aren't quite empty. I just didn't want to run out during a test, or deal with the inconsistency of low pressures on my results. I've got one of the those refill adapters and I'm going to pour all the leftovers into one recycled can.

The wider pot moves the pan higher up from the burner. The narrower pot keeps it closer to the burner. That’s what causes the biggest difference. The Soto wind master has a flat pot support so that the pan always maintains the same distance from the burner.

Fond memories of being out hunting, in a freezing gale trying to dig a hole so the wind would stop blowing my spirit burner out. My friend was very smug with his gas burner until the canister froze.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I would like to start testing alcohol stoves for an over-comparison with gas once I'm done setting up the gas baseline.

@tonyg25

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic my experience is that gas is basically better in every way except for freezing conditions.

Once again, thank you very much for making this video Sceptic, I have just changed over my whole cook system from a trail designs. Keg f which is immensely light to an alpkit Kraku stove which is just a heavier duty version of the BRS. I too was concerned about fuel consumption from a breeze, my solution was to buy a bear bones TI mag windshield which is essentially a thin sheet of titanium with some magnets which attach to the bottom of the canister weighing at 7g! The alcohol stove is my go to for shorter trips and for longer thru hikes I prefer the canister setup as fuel density is greater on gas meaning I carry less weight? What are your thoughts on this? Additionally, what your safety thoughts on using a windshield attached to a gas canister, mine gets particularly warm enough so that I am considering punching some ventilation holes lower down near the canister. Cheers

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Once I finish gas, I do want to start on alcohol stoves and see how those compare on short vs. long trips, in the cold, and in wind. I’ve only started playing with windscreens, but there is a lot of talk about overheating issues. I’ve seen some say the stove arms can get so hot they bend and the pot falls over. I have one of those contactless infrared thermometers to help measure how hot things get.

@VapourTrailz

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic Nice one, well I look forward to your findings, Thank you.

Great video! Please be careful with heat shields and wind screens. Some manufacturers warn that an aluminum foil windscreen can overheat the fuel canister and cause it to explode.

@GearSkeptic

10 ай бұрын

Will do. I plan to allow the canister to stay exposed, but I have still seen some reports where people say the stove arms get so hot they melt.

@kasai1575

10 ай бұрын

@@GearSkeptic Best of luck! And thank you for all the videos you've made. They've been extremely helpful in my choosing what I eat and carry on trail.

Another factor that may effect the shifted pot results, are the burn marks underneath the pots. A dark spot in the middle will absorb more heat than the more reflective outer areas.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I do have that somewhere on my list of things to test: black pots vs. silver ones

@foggs

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic looking forward to it!

Curious to see if things like the Trail Designs Caldera cones will make an appearance when discussing wind screens! I'd love to see your level of analysis applied to those things

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I do plan to start testing alcohol stoves after all the baselines are in for gas. Though, I might also try cone screens with a remote gas canister stove. Interesting idea!

@StanSmith-ex7ow

Жыл бұрын

​@@GearSkeptic +1 from me for including the Trail Designs system(s) in a future comparison! I would think the Sidewinder system should be the focus, however, due to its weight advantage over the Caldera. This seems like a particularly important comparison insofar as your comparisons so far have hinged upon the extra cannisters required to use a less efficient stove (even if the stove is lighter than more efficient alternatives). This begs the question, however: what about no cannisters? With an alcohol stove, one can take exactly the amount of fuel required for a particular trip, and one can store it in a lightweight plastic container (rather than a metal cannister)! It would be particularly interesting to evaluate whether this weight savings offsets the relative inefficiency of alcohol stoves such as the Trail Designs Kojin (when utilized with the purpose-built Trail Designs Sidewinder windscreen). Thanks as ever, in any case, for your incredible work on this channel. I have learned so much from you!

Based on this data wouldn't a Caldera cone system with a small pot using ESBIT trump all others in most 3 season conditions?

Some part of the efficiency loss in wind is the wind directly stealing heat from the sides of the vessel - I wonder if a carbon felt pot cozy around the circumference would make a difference, or if the vast majority of the losses are just the flame movement. A tall windscreen would help both of course, but a pot cozy is multipurpose since it can be used to lift the pot and keep food warmer longer.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I have some carbon felt. I’ll put that on the list for Part 3!

@ckb1137

Жыл бұрын

It's a relatively small amount of energy which is lost radiatively. As far as the water/pot are concerned heat of vaporization is a much more significant contributor to energy loss.

@GeekfromYorkshire

Жыл бұрын

@@ckb1137 Depends on power. Radiation loss power is linear on difference of temperature and linear on surface area. Energy loss is thus the integration of the temperature difference with time. That's why if your power is too low more time is spent at a high (below boiling) temperature where losses are high now for longer time.

@ckb1137

Жыл бұрын

@@GeekfromYorkshire vaporization is also a function of temperature difference. It is factually the largest component of energy loss when boiling water under standard conditions. (excluding the flame itself naturally)

@GeekfromYorkshire

Жыл бұрын

@@ckb1137 Indeed (and lid off makes that worse) but the point is still valid that energy (power integrated over time) is lost more if you hold such losses for longer. That's why a stronger flame can cause less energy (not Power) loss. Seems if combine this video with the predecessor the biggest thing to focus on is slowing wind as it's losses are higher than the variability of pot, and then when you've done that then a wider pot with a lid. So we seem to come to zero-weight wind reducing schemes. Vestibule, backpack, etc.

With respect to the anemometer, what is the difference between the average reading and the peak reading? Great video!

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I never saw any surges, peaks or dips outside the 0.1mph variation. The Vornado talks about having a vortex spiral of flow that supposedly creates a sort of focused column of air. That might contribute to consistency. As you saw, I didn't use a wind tunnel setup like yours. Wasn't sure if an open fan arrangement would be more like a natural wind (without the gusts and direction changes).

I’d be interested in your analysis of pots with metal fins on the bottom such as the JetBoil Stash.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Yes! Heat exchangers should be Part 4, after Part 3 on windscreens, so I can compare an ultralight stove/screen combo with a finned system (for both weight and fuel efficiency).

@pepstein

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic I look forward to both upcoming parts! When backpacking with my wife, we boil about 1.5 liters per meal, or 3 liters a day. That’s enough I suspect we reach the break even point for a heat exchanger on 4-6 day trips.

I'd be really interested to see how alcohol stoves compare, but I suspect the weight savings for the fuel containers will be easily lost on the burner weight and accessories. I wonder how the trangia fully enclosed set would perform with wind if that's an effective design. But again the weight of it surely will never be worth the fuel savings Thanks for your work!

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

I have begun collecting alcohol stoves! I’d like to get the gas foundation done, then start comparing alcohol by weight, cold and wind performance, etc.

hello gear skeptic refering to your gear hiking video about hiking recovery what are some ingredients I could buy as a plant based eater to create a good recovery mix.

@GearSkeptic

11 ай бұрын

For protein, soy has the highest utilization rate. Skip the coffee packet (it has creamer I think) and just replace it with 2 tablespoons of sugar.

@Andrewace432hz

11 ай бұрын

@@GearSkeptic thank u 🙏

I have a Windmaster and a BRS so I've seen it happen, but I'm still surprise just how little wind it takes to seriously impact the BRS's performance. NC State University maintains a weather station on Fryingpan mountain near Shining Rock wilderness. I pulled the top of the hour wind speeds for the past year and then classified it as over/under 5 or over/under 10MPH.. 71% of all hours in the last year reported speeds over 5MPH, and 39% of the hourly records were over 10 MPH. Without a solid plan in place to block the wind, the BRS isn't even a viable option and even the Windmaster would likely struggle.

@wio2189

Жыл бұрын

...on a mountain top. Not a place for cooking without a wind screen.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Yah, I don't think you can reasonably skip a windscreen in any real breeze. Flatcat Gear has done wind testing on some of his screens up to at least 8mph and can still get a boil. Looking forward to testing all that stuff.

So having concluded a wide pot on a low flame in the previous video it's now raise the flame in wind and a narrower pot wins in the windier conditions. So as we can't always know the weather conditions we're left deciding what exactly?

@wio2189

Жыл бұрын

The narrow pot fits the small gas canister. The Toaks 550ml can also fit the BRS3000T and a mini bic. All held together by a asparagus rubber band. Whereas the wide pot is much more difficult to pack efficiently without anything rattling around.

@GeekfromYorkshire

Жыл бұрын

@@wio2189 Yes I know about packing canister in pot with stove. But where does your food go? How robust is your food? A gas canister is a strong item, it can withstand being by itself outside of your pot. But these Titanium pots are not that strong, they are weaker than the canister. So either you'r placing your canister inside your Ti pot to be a splint support to help the pot not get squished, OR your're letting the canister survive on it's own outside the pot and STUFF your pot with food items which would quite like the protective place of the Ti pot. e.g. Oatmeal.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

The Summary section has some thoughts on overall strategy in light of the new information.

How many hours did you spend getting us these awesome nerding out facts?

@GearSkeptic

17 күн бұрын

Dozens and dozens 🤓

I wonder if some stoves have a venturi that handle wind better, and what that would look like.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Stove makers tend to not give much detail about their designs ;)

A remote canister stove is 31g heavier than a canister-stop stove. e.g. for the same burner head, the Fire Maple 117T 106g vs canister-top 116T 48g is 58g but the canister-top should have a canister stabiliser 27g so the difference is actually 31g. As a remote stove (can be) lower then wind speed is naturally lower (friction from ground where wind is zero grows with height) AND you can use a windscreen without the risk of stove / canister overheating. You don't have to re-run your tests you could just alter the height of the wind speed test and measure speed at height then infer from what you've already done. i.e. if you measure the wind is 1mph lower by 2 inch lower you can infer that a 3mph canister-top performance would be similar to a 1mph remote-canister system and then fuel saved calculated then compare with added weight of the remote part. I don't own a windspeed tester so I can't do that first part myself.

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

They are discontinued, but if you can get one the Olicamp Xcelerator is the lightest remote canister stove I've found. The listed weight is 98g.

@GeekfromYorkshire

Жыл бұрын

@@GearSkeptic Mine weighs 106g so near enough.

what about solid fuel vs isobutane weight / efficiency ratio?

@GearSkeptic

11 ай бұрын

Interesting. It will likely change depending on length of trip (number of boils), but I will have to give a testing protocol some thought.

Which Stove and Pot is the best in your opinion?

@GearSkeptic

3 ай бұрын

I am careful about saying “best” because priorities can depend on the person. I do place a lot of value on being compact and lightweight. So, my favorite setup is the BRS stove with a Toaks 550 pot and the Ocelot windscreen. To me, it has the best combination of performance and small size.

@Abu-Suhaib

3 ай бұрын

@@GearSkeptic What about Jetboil Stash?

@GearSkeptic

3 ай бұрын

I haven’t done the wind testing on HX pots yet. For now, the BRS Toaks windscreen setup remains my personal kit choice.

the answer my friend is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind

@GearSkeptic

Жыл бұрын

Nicely done!

Sciency