Maybe we’re getting to a point similar to our grandparents where we just buy one watch and wear it for our life instead of having massive collections.

@JasonCohenphoto

Жыл бұрын

I love meeting an older person with a beautiful vintage watch who says they have been wearing it every day for the last 20-40+ years.... If I only had the same discipline :)

@NexDim.

Жыл бұрын

This is where I’ve ended up. I love hearing the stories of guys that have worn the same watch for decades. I didn’t get it at first but I love it now.

@JasonCohenphoto

Жыл бұрын

@@NexDim. have you been able to get down to just one?

@NexDim.

Жыл бұрын

@@JasonCohenphoto I have, my goal was the Tudor BB58 but I didn’t get there. Chose my Seiko Willard for a daily wear. Just nice enough to hold my interest but not so nice that I ever worry about it, a sweet spot value wise for me. I’m fairly active so looking forward to the scars it accumulates. It is freeing Jason, I will say that 😂

@JasonCohenphoto

Жыл бұрын

@@NexDim. Good on you! You give me something to aspire to! Enjoy the heck out of it

Finance and credit has caused the price of everything to go through the roof. Now people who barely get by on minimum wage are driving around in £30-40k cars.

@onielrodriguez9194

Жыл бұрын

Not an impressive argument when one considers that that's roughly the price of your average low to mid tier car.

@BabyJesus66

Жыл бұрын

That's how much an average new car costs now so that doesn't mean much.

@adamr9570

8 ай бұрын

@@BabyJesus66but that’s the thing right there, their salary hasn’t changed according to the average car prices

One thing you used to hear people say is that they bought their Rolex and it cost them a months pay. I put this to the test by plotting Rolex RRP for steel sports models against the average monthly salary for a college graduate in the US from 1953 to today. What I found was really interesting. From 1953 to 1996 the RRP tracked just under the average salary. In 1996 the curve inverted with the RRP tracking just above the average monthly salary. In 2006 the RRP takes a hockey stick jump to present where it is now 2-3 times the average monthly salary. It was clear to me that Rolex no longer looks at the successful professional as their target audience. They are now looking to the top percentile as their target demographic.

@threethrushes

Жыл бұрын

MVP

@marteanderson7963

Жыл бұрын

Exactly.

@perudolux

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, and Tudor has filled the gap

@davidcrandall4958

Жыл бұрын

Exactly!

@davidcrandall4958

Жыл бұрын

Tudor has done nothing of the sort!

In 1980 I purchased a Rolex Submariner no-date for a little more than $600. In 2005 a similar model was going for over $6,000. Now, it's close to $10,000.

@vaclav_fejt

Жыл бұрын

The difference will be a bit less when you account for inflation and built quality (bracelet, bezel, movement, lume...), but there still will be a huge gap called "marketing" (with the semi-nonsensical term "heritage").

@jec45

Жыл бұрын

For those interested, $600 in 1980 is about $2210 in 2023. So even when adjusting for inflation, it has increased in price a crazy amount.

@PapriceP

Жыл бұрын

The price is increasing.

You guys are both absolutely correct. The prices on watches and cars has gone absolutely out of control. We are talking about the same watches and the same cars.

@davidcrandall4958

Жыл бұрын

Actually,The cars and the watches are not as good as they were before!

@pushatsinfrared

Жыл бұрын

15 years ago, my dad bought a 4 year old Mercedes C-Class, top spec Sport Edition with 55k miles for £11,000. An equivalent now (which would also be of worse build quality) would be over £20,000.

@TheSpoovy

Жыл бұрын

Cars are slightly different, they have much more technology in nowadays, much of it required by law, which bumps prices up significantly, plus the global chip shortage which has created genuine scarcity.

Until people quit paying these prices then this won’t change unfortunately- voting with your dollar is your power and if you spend obscene money then watch brands will oblige

@rabajdajr3001

Жыл бұрын

Money launderers and hype sellers have unfortunately taken control of the market. They have created a new gold rush in the watch market. Same thing has happened in the high art market. People are looking to conceal or park money in hard good assets and they think watches will hold their value over time. We will see.. hopefully a good recession will wipe them down to size. But once a item reaches a certain high price it usually has the potential to stay there or reach it again. It's a shame , and it's out of control..same as the car market

@clark3830

Жыл бұрын

I have said for ever, stop paying for labels and ALL items will come down. NIKE, ROLEX etc.

@johndobbs300

Жыл бұрын

@@rabajdajr3001 that’s a god point I didn’t consider, I love my Rolex I own at the same time I’m endlessly frustrated with them on how they run the business and most certainly know that bad actors are driving this out of control and they do not care

@BabyJesus66

Жыл бұрын

Won't happen. The rich are always getting richer, so they will always have buyers. They don't care about the people who worry about the price.

In the early 1990’s I purchased my first luxury watch used but as new Rolex Datejust two tone diamonds on the hour markers with the jubilee bracelet for $2600 Canadian dollars, after about 8 years of daily wear the bracelet was badly stretched and wanted to replace it. The price to replace the bracelet was $4500 OUCH! I decided to sell the watch and purchased a brand new Omega Seamaster 300 professional in 2002 for $1800 Canadian. Honestly the mid tier watches are where the value is. You can get fantastic watches for under or around $1000 specially on the secondary market. Now a days brand name is just to expensive. 😊😊😊

@karvast5726

Жыл бұрын

That’s what we call the curve of diminishing return,it’s basically a curve you can draw that’s equivalent to price and quality,if you buy a $5 watch and a $50 watch the difference will be crystal clear and the quality might be 10x the $5 one but between 500 and 5000 i don’t think it’s going to be clearly 10x better

@canadianwatchmonkey3992

Жыл бұрын

@@karvast5726 totally agree with you.

@grit1679

Жыл бұрын

That's a really good and interesting example. Nearly double the price of the watch + bracelet, for just the bracelet!

I've been collecting watches for 50 years this year. Bought my first watch with my own money, a Timex Marlin, in 1973, a hand wound watch, in the middle of the quartz crisis. I was twelve years old. I've seen many changes. This is one particular change I don't care for. Thanks, flexers.

Hamilton watches have doubled in price in the last 3 years Khaki king auto was £365, now £720

@fredo1070

Жыл бұрын

My father bought one for £450 three years ago it is now £625, ridiculous.

@Anirossa

Жыл бұрын

Yet the quality hasn't gone up with it, rip

@davidcrandall4958

Жыл бұрын

It's just not worth it!

@dostoevsky90

Жыл бұрын

And it sucks as a field military watch too as it has WR of only 50m …. Imagine a watch to be advertised as a fd watch / a military watch with 50m WR…

When the cheap and superior quartz technology was developed, was also when the argument of paying more for a better mechanical watch to have a better tool went out the window. When paying more gave you less in forms of functionality the mechanical watch became a luxury, as they could no longer be marked as a necessary everyday tool. Prices of mechanical watches in general haven't necessarily been "reasonable" ever since. Though I do agree, the watch industry is slowly bringing mechanical watches up to new heights of being a luxury and a poor value proposition. PS. I do like mechanical watches as a nerdy mech. engineer. But I also would not argue they are better from a functional standpoint than a quartz, nor do I think many would.

Wow,someone actually calling a spade a spade. Better than rest of the watch media wagon trying to justify the unrealistic cost. Micro brand pricing 2x(twice) ,should where it should be at when accounting for 'luxury' .

@rabajdajr3001

Жыл бұрын

It's a common money laundering tactic, which has taken place now in the watch market. Same thing going on in the high art world. International business groups are looking to trade or conceal funds thru the trade of hard goods. This is how it works. Some business or business group has obtained a lot of funds on their business account, wether legal or stolen. They need to transfer this wealth into tangible money. They can't buy property without putting it on the books, same with vehicles or businesses. So they choose hard good items. Gold or silver bars, or jewelry diamonds watches. This new wealth explosion has inflated the market. They don't mind buying a patek from a wholesaler for 120k. They know the bottom end trading price is probably 100k. So they buy the watch full price, take it to a smaller buyer and sell it for 100k cash. Money comes out of the account buys the watch then is sold for cash or trade. They then pocket or conceal that cash. They lose 20 percent as a transfer fee. Do this ten times a year , and they have offshored a million in cash. Happens in much bigger scale.

I must commend you on this video. You are absolutely spot with your analysis. I've been collecting watches since 2000 and I have to say I've never known the hobby in which I'm passionate about being in such a horrendous state.

Same here. I couldn’t now afford my Omega Seamaster 300m. I bought it in around 2001 for $1150 in the US. At the time, it was a shed load of money, I felt sick and was sweating throughout the ‘will I won’t I’ buying process. At that point, it was the most expensive non-essential purchase I’d ever made. 20 years later and the same watch is what….£5,500. I now feel so fortunate to have been able to buy my watch when I did. Prices now are insane.

@dasweed1323

Жыл бұрын

$1,150 in 2000 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $2,025.94 today, an increase of $875.94 over 23 years. Looks like the watch prices have way passed normal inflation rates. That's why I bought a Monta Skyquest

@superdario2425

Жыл бұрын

I bought my SMP last August and since then its gone up in price twice, with no sign of stopping, its crazy!

You said it yourself, if you'd had the 20k you'd have probably bought the Speedy! As long as enough people are willing to pay the ridiculously inflated prices they will just keep increasing. Plenty of other great brands out there at sensible prices (Sinn, Formex, Christopher Ward to name just 3), who don't rely on huge marketing budgets to hype their products.

@denisdaly1708

Жыл бұрын

That's my high end tier, Sinn, Formex. I will not pay more for a watch

@MarvoloRiddle

6 ай бұрын

Tudor, Hamilton ? They have good stuff.

There are a lot of people and dealers buying and hoarding "investment" watches, but the market is softening and I see ads for sales and discounts frequently...along with massive unsold inventory. As interest rates remain high, there's an increasing (interest and opportunity) cost to holding unsold inventory, and it there will come a time that people stop buying these watches at above MSRP because they will be depreciating assets once again.

The opportunity costs of owning a watch collection is ludicrous unless you are a multi-millionaire. A One to three watch collections should be the norm. Spending more than 1 to 3 months salary on a watch once every ten years is actually certifiable. Watches aren't a replacement for a brokerage or retirement plan.

My Rolex Submariner date was £150.00 in 1980 lol. From Pickett and Purser in Southampton. I still have the receipt …….🇬🇧

@Anirossa

Жыл бұрын

Good watch for the money back then, the marketing and peoples association with brands seem to have gone nuclear since..

@mikewinston8709

Жыл бұрын

@@Anirossa it’s all become too silly….and we all know it…..emperors new clothes syndrome….

Hence the boom in Homage watches. With the amount they are selling they are investing in high quality equipment and techniques which are making them extremely good, and very affordable.

Steel tool watches should be priced at $2,000.00. That is fair. To be priced higher, the case must be made of a noble metal. That introduces intrinsic value to the existing brand/model value. In reality, the brand can demand a wee bit more profit on the brand/model side of the ledger. At the price level of $10,000.00, the case material's intrinsic value has to be the dominant percentage of the price. Otherwise, we have a situation where Rolex is gouging the customer with a $7,500.00 steel tool watch.

I've set myself a limit on what I'm willing to pay for a watch. I'll perhaps adjust it for inflation, but that's it. The world has plenty of fools who believe a product is more attractive just because it's more expensive/exclusive. I'm not joining them.

2 points: if you stick to old brands, they get more expensive, and it sucks, especially if you like heritage, because the watch world has changed and evolved and even devolved, but (point 2) if you look for modern watches, you can straight up buy unbelievably great watches for between 1 and 2 grand. That's a lot, but affordable for many people. Rolex and similar brands were affordable a few decades ago, but not anymore. Oh well, who cares? Don't stay stuck in the past, look for newer watches that are equal or better in quality but significantly more affordable. And this whole collecting rubbish is such a waste of time. You don't need a bunch of watches you won't actually wear. Just save up for your favourite watch and wear the hell out of it. That's what made our grandparent's watch special: they wore the pissing thing for 50 years, and they had it fixed when it broke down. You don't need 20 watches. You arguably only need like 2 or 3: your favourite, one to wear when you don't want to damage your main (or when you visit London), and another to wear for everything else. There are countless watches I like, but genuinely only a few I truly love and would spend thousands on. Quality always beats quantity, and I'm proud to own an expensive watch, a cheap Casio, and a 3rd for a little variety. If you're a millionaire, do what you want, and if you're not, stop wasting your money on lux products you don't really need. Just pick the small handful and be happy with your absolute favourite watches. Don't divvy up your love for watches on 20 pieces, 18 of which you probably (be honest) only bought because of hype or a fleeting emotion, and you'll inevitably end up selling it to buy some other stupid piece of crap you don't want or need.

According to the Bank of England’s Inflation Calculator a product costing £1000 in 1994 should cost £1969 today. So £6500 is WAY over an inflationary rise.

Not only are the prices getting silly, if you have set enough aside to buy a watch it’s not possible to walk in & buy what you want if it’s a Rolex. Many ADs expect you to “build a relationship”, in other words buy more stuff from them just to get what you want all the while the price of what you want goes up. I was supposedly “put on the list” for a Explorer 1 back in 2018… never heard from the AD (WoS). I then gave my details to have my name on the Waitlist in Nov 2021 for a Oyster Perpetual (WoS again but different AD)… checked 5 months later only to find my details were on the system but not on the wait list. They fixed that but it’s been well over a year waiting & the price has gone up a number of times (and I have bought Tudors & Cartiers, all stuff wanted, from WoS). Yeah I could have “gone grey” but I refuse to pay well over the retail price for the benefit of flippers / grey dealers. I think I might go and get an Omega instead & just be done with it

@marteanderson7963

Жыл бұрын

The Omega is technically a better watch.

The submariner date I bought NEW in March 2003, cost £2,600. According to the Bank of England inflation calculator, it should now cost £4,400!!! 🤣😂🤣😂 You couldn’t make it up (ffs!😳)

The JLC Reverso has gone up around 40% in the last 18 months 😮

Totally agree with this analysis. This has made me look at brands like Christopher Ward and Sinn. Maybe even Oris.

@superdario2425

Жыл бұрын

CW have put there prices up/got rid of the discounts. I think Oris is the one to watch.

I concur. I bought a new Speedmaster in ‘07 for $3700. Of course 2007 money isn’t the same as 2023 money, but you’re telling me that’s an almost $7000 watch now!?

Yes, it's getting stupid. I've bought my last couple that I really wanted (Omega Aqua Terra, and Speedster Professional) I won't be buying any more. My Black Bay Red cost £2.5k 4 years ago brand new from Goldsmiths, they're now £3.6 - £3.7k after 4 years. Even for watches that maybe don't hold value too well, if they're increasing that rapidly, you can hold them for 10 years and still make back more than you paid which is insane (though I do not buy watches to sell or for investment).

@davidcrandall4958

Жыл бұрын

Not for long!

That's the reason I have more and more doubts to buy a Seiko. Beautiful dials, but compared to upcomming brands, they are overpriced. Even a Seiko 5... Please make a video of 10 brands you think are still produce valie for the money...

Gents I just subscribed. This is a lovely discussion (about a terrible problem). My dad would roll in his grave to know what I’ve spent on watches. In 1968 he bought a Seiko 5 and he wore that watch to the end of his days. I still have it. My first “luxury” watch was a Seamaster 300. It was $1500 and I wore it for 21 years until the service would have cost more than it was worth. I replaced it with its modern replacement model that was almost $4k. I’ve been on the “waitlist” for a Sub date and it’s been made clear that it won’t be sold to me. I have ordered a $1700 homage watch to see if I can scratch that itch and tell Rolex to take a hike. I’m fortunate to have what I have. Maybe I should sell down to a reasonable level and just be done with these vultures.

They've been a novelty since smartphones came out. Now with the prevalence of social media, investment bros, and constant "inflation" affecting everything, the prices have been climbing sharply in recent years and it doesn't look like they will slow down. Combined with the watchmaker shortage, I currently find the long-term sustainability of the industry questionable.

@frogsplorer

Жыл бұрын

I don’t know. I think the smartphone made mechanical watches viable again. My phone is my accurate time reference and I can check my watch against it any time I like so I know if it’s running a minute fast or whatever. I don’t need quartz accuracy on my wrist but there are times when it’s rude or inconvenient to consult your phone

A lot of what you said here makes sense. What makes matters worse is that most Rolex dealers are completely insufferable, and the experience dealing with them is degrading. Personally I have a fairly full collection and have no interest in "impulse purchases" anymore, when that means starting at $7-$10k from a major manufacturer. There are many watches I'd like to try, but my guess is reselling most watches will become increasingly difficult as the prices are too high and represent an opportunity cost for something arguable more valuable, like a luxury European holiday, a year of tuition for a child/grandchild at (Canadian) university, etc...

In the past, companies that overcharge for an of the shelf movements like Hublot and Panerai got hit very hard. Now, it seems like this is the trend. On the good side, there are still a number of honest brands that are well priced and provide better experience too. Like imo: JLC, Grand Seiko, Christopher Ward, Nomos, Glashutte Original. In addition, these can be found at even better deals at the secondary market. Lovely topic and discussion. Thank you, gentlemen.

@anorax001

Жыл бұрын

Great point. I will also add Longines and Sinn. If people can bother to tear their eyes away from Rolex and Omega there are plenty of other affordable choices.

A very good discussion video Richard and Anthony. I'm also a grumpy old man (GOM) and have been lucky that I managed to get a few watches some years ago that today have increased in price to a point such that some others who may have been able to afford them a few years ago cannot justify the expense today. As Anthony mentioned there comes a point where a price rises to a point where it is no longer value for money. I agree that the positive is that other brands are getting more attention but this is a double edged sword. On the plus side watch enthusiasts can purchase a time telling marvel without breaking the bank today but a corresponding negative is that as demand for the more affordable watches increases brands may well increase prices and so it goes full circle. Unfortunately my crystal ball has gone cloudy due to unforeseen circumstances but if I was going to call out a future brand who's prices may well escalate it would be Longines as not only do they produce some fine pieces but many have movements that are exclusive to the brand even though they may be modified versions of ETA and Valjoux. Dare I say it but the brand may well be looking to occupy the area that Omega sat in some years ago. I would be happy to be wrong with any of the above as it's all speculation. Many thanks for sharing.

Rolex have become naff imho and they did it to themselves; people with those kind of budgets should be jumping on Grand Seiko while they can still afford them. Personally I'm saving for a sapphire sandwich Speedy but the price keeps increasing and I'm close to just forgetting about it and getting a Sinn 356 Sa instead as a companion to my Seiko Willard I think I'd be happy enough. If I ever get the Speedy I'll then never think about watches again. There's nothing worse than feeling ripped off and I suspect that the mechanical watch industry may come to rue the day it forgot what happened to it in the quartz crisis.

Yes! But there are some fantastic good value watches, I just bought a metal Casioak for £170 and it is brilliant 👍

@96kyh

Жыл бұрын

I would like to add that in my humble opinion, Casio is one brand that doesn't jack up the prices unreasonably just because the market is still willing to pay for it.

Great chat and I appreciate the honest conversation. More of these please!

Great video, as always. I'm probably one of the few who are indifferent. Going to Wind-up Watch Fair recently, I feel we're in a great time to enjoy watches. So many creative, high quality watches are available to us to buy at very reasonable prices. Prices that if you used that price time adjustment wizard would probably crazy inexpensive 30 years ago. It's the brand addiction that riles people up. Take the brand addiction away, and there's a wealth out there to enjoy.

Great video. I am glad this issue is being discussed as i noticed this trend myself when looking to buy a new Oris, 20yrs after my previous Oris purchase. Unfortunately, this is not unusual in the luxury tier of any produce. As a photographer, i am aware of similar strategies of the main camera brands because they have said as much. Its all about selling the top end products to as many people as possible and for as much as possible. Btw just subscribed

Really thoughtful, engaging discussion. Thanks both.

I regret passing on a used Explorer in 2010. £1500 from a jeweller in Brighton :( Social media, speculating, and greed has ruined it for everyone...

As someone who is turning into a "grumpy old man" more and more every day, I whole-heartedly agree with everything that you have said, and with so many of the comments I have read. I will never have an income high enough to afford a "super luxury" watch. That doesn't make me bitter or upset, it is a fact of my life and choice of occupation. I am quite content knowing that I will never own a Rolex, but do admire them from afar. Buy what you like, but make sure you can afford it. So many people live by the "buy now and pay later" mentality, they end up going broke just to have an expensive timepiece. Those brands are taking advantage of today's society, and as long as people will pay these outrageous prices, they will continue to do it. I do think that "homage watch" popularity is only going to increase as these other brands become so unreasonably high in price.

Luxury products go up more than just inflation, because it also is a matter of people's purchasing power relative to their societal station. A luxury producer will not want their product to be "cheap", it should be at the limit of what ordinary folks can afford (sometimes way beyond, think patek). If the general consumer becomes so wealthy that a rolex or a speedmaster is regarded as cheap, then it loses its status as luxury. Hence all luxury products typically go up in price more so than just inflation.

In a world of smart phones and apple watches - we're way past the Quartz Crisis... automatic watches have now become aspirational mens jewellery. It's all further ramped up by marketing and the internet. I agree prices have just got silly. Sticking with my Tissot.

Great video. I'd love to see the video idea you talked about at the end there. About which brands we should buy now before their retail price goes up.

Although true, the Burlington arcade is a total joke, having said that You could argue money is all relative too, so average UK salary was apparently £13,700 vs your Airking £999 - 7.3% of earnings. Apparently 2023 salary average is £32k, airking at £6250, so 19% of earnings. So your argument holds true imo

Great video and an honest assessment of the current market. The main question is - at what point does the watch collecting community say "enough is enough"? Well, we seem to have gotten away in recent years from the general rule of "if its in the display case its up for a discount". That rule also goes for Rolex in the rare time you might see a ladies DJ or OP up for sale in the display. Any piece in a display case should be up for an instant discount of >15-20%. Collectively we should never be paying full prices on any non-hype piece just to be able to get on "the list" for the good stuff.

Great video guys. I just really got in to the hobby the last year or so and have quickly realized that I will never get into many of these brands because they are so expensive and they will only get further out reach each year.

I love the honest take on our beloved hobby/obsession.. Good job sers! (Btw funny thing is I wear a Formex Essence as a daily driver and my next watch will be probably a Tudor BB 54)

I think the only brand worth buying nowadays is Tudor. You get an amazing watch for a very competitive price compared to other offerings currently on the market.

@ChrisVPlant

Жыл бұрын

Buy now for sure, scary to think what Tudor will cost in 5 years

@thedriver08

Жыл бұрын

@@ChrisVPlant That's of course something we have to take into consideration

Yes, prices are absolutely out of control. I bought my first decent watch, an Omega Seamaster 300m for £925 in 2006. A year later, the Casino Royale Planet Ocean 45.5 mm for around £2k. I'm not hung up on Autos, I'm fond of Citizen and have 5 of them. I picked up an Atomic Time one for £300 about 15 months ago £480 now. 6 months ago, a Christopher Ward Sealander which I got for £535 with the £100 discount voucher. £685 now and no discounts to be had. As far as London is concerned, I'd be scared to wear my yellow G-Shock Casioak there! Well done guys for this one, this needed to be said, price gouging is getting beyond a joke. I'd love a new auto Speedmaster as I'm a huge space programme fan, I've been to Kennedy a number of times, stood on Launch Pad 39a, seen a Shuttle launch, I can afford a Speedy, but at over £6k I don't want to afford it, it's irresponsible.

@marteanderson7963

Жыл бұрын

Amen. I agree.

I think they are asking slightly the wrong question. It's not "Why does charge so much?" The more interesting question is: "Why are customers prepared to PAY so much?" Much more curious (particularly when there are so many very reasonably priced alternatives)

@marteanderson7963

Жыл бұрын

Human Psychology is really the issue. Businesses are good at manipulating people and people are vulnerable to manipulation.

Great video guys. So very true. I'm saving for something like a Tudor BB54, which for now seems a reasonable value product. The OP36 / Explorer that I was hoping to get are both getting so expensive... and at secondary prices - offer terrible value....I don't know if I can buy a watch which costs as much as a nice car or a deposit on a house ..... I think my cut off is 3-4k.. But that doesn't stop us craving those overpriced pieces... Time to consider P.s. my old 1861 Speedy was £3200 (now sold unfortunately).... they are now double! COME ON... not right

This is a very interesting very intelligent analysis of the watch industry and watch pricing presently! I am enjoying it immensely! Thank you!

Great conversation guys I agree it’s ridiculous but at the same time have 2 pieces totaling $15K retail so I’m also part of the problem. Thinking of staying put where I’m at until the market settles after the coming recession.

Watch collection was a huge hobby for me but now I stopped because it’s too expensive.. now I moved towards other hobbies like photography…. I feel it was a good decision 😊

This is why I have switched focus in my collecting journey and now focus on very high value for money watches. I genuinely believe that I get more enjoyment out of Casios, seikos, G shocks and a select number of microbrands then I do with the luxury brands. I think the consumer, social media culture does not help the issue. Im also sick of hearing brands like hodinkee preaching affordability over watches that 90% of the world could never afford in a lifetime. Rant over

I think your bang on with your comments, I also think it's the time of the independent watch makers to step up, I'm not a fan of rolex so owning one is not on my horizon, but they are definitely not worth the money or the long waiting time, I've just ordered a islander watch from long Island watches and the spec on it far exceeds what you would pay for the equivalent swiss watch with the same spec...

Superb to watch this superb chat. Thanks for the steer to Formex as well.

Put into perspective , the average person is walking around with phone that is near 1K that they will upgrade every couple of years.

Your mate paying £6.5k for an Explorer 1 seems very good - Wafchfinder are asking at least £8.25k

Same debate as the cheapest cars available today are about double the price of a decade ago... I'm gifted not to love luxury, classic dress/dive watches but I'm feeling more "safe" in the 600-1200euro range like Sturmanski ,Vostok Europe or micro brands. If I cannot afford a luxury watch the bling isn't visible for me but then again, IMO it's lame to pay a high tag because of branding and heritage. If I'd really wanted a luxury watch I'd pick a Breitling Super Ocean 2nd hand but then again, it's not worth to be gun pointed for it. Getting more keen on matt titanium cases lately...

Yes

Thank you for bringing this up!

There is a channel title; "Two Grumpy Old Men and Their Watches." Great discussion and all on point. I think the "elephant in the room" as it were are the Chinese and Middle Eastern markets. As long as they are purchasing +50% of the market and willing to pay AD prices we won't see a price correction. IMO.

Got a Orient Mako 2 for $140 with the blue sunburst dial, not exactly a Rolex but for the price of one Submariner i can build a whole collection that lasts a lifetime.

Got my explorer in 88/89 for £600 it's the only Rolex I've ever liked so I won't agonise over the inflated prices of the current catalogue.

@LittleBigPoet

Жыл бұрын

Okay, boomer.

@philspencelayh5464

Жыл бұрын

@@LittleBigPoet My point being that I can't afford something I don't want. People are desperate to get the Rolex name on their wrist, the actual products just aren't worth it.

You could have this exact same discussion about house prices etc etc. Prices are going up faster than wages.

what happened is we're feeling the repercussions of losing the class war, the rich have gotten far too rich and the rest of us just haven't, there's enough of them who can afford any price no matter how stupid it is and the rest of us just can't and the companies don't care. This will extend to all things until we do something.

@davidcrandall4958

Жыл бұрын

Yes it will?

@davidcrandall4958

Жыл бұрын

EVERYTHING!

You guys really need to do regular vids like this and make them available as a podcast

The price of the Explorer has increased by £1000 within a year.

Back in 1999, in Finland we had marks as our currency. With 100marks, you could buy 12 beers, then head up to the nightclub, have a few beers more, go to the grill and buy yourself a hamburger meal as a night snack and take a cab ride home. As the our currency changed to Euro's ,100marks was something like 16-18euros. Now, twenty something years later, one can buy max three beers from any restaurant wit that money. Tops. So, my point is, as interesting subject as it is, you can not really compare prices from 90's with current time. Like, there's no point. Like you said, Air-King was a pricey but still affordable watch in the 90's, and it still is pricey, but also still affordable for a normal working class person.... with a little bit of saving up maybe, but still.

Watch inflation has rocketed in the last few years I brought my omega sea master full size fully automatic in 2003 for £1100 retail picked it up for £950 I wear it all the time but have got a weekend away coming up in London thinking of leaving it at home I’ve worn it all over the world and never thought about it London to today have spotters going round all the bars just to get you on the way out

I 100% agree with your discussion. I have resigned myself to the fact I will never own a Rolex or some other luxury brands for that matter. Unfortunately, as with most things watch pricing will not come down. Companies such as Rolex know they have a premium product that people are willing to pay more for. Toss in their restricted manufacturing capacity and thanks to supply and demand we get prices that are higher than what I paid for my 2017 Ford Fusion. I used to work for a premium brand in a different industry and would sit in meets with the CEO working on pricing of product and parts and he would tack on 10-20% to the price because he knew he could. Companies exist to make money so I can’t blame them I just wish they realized they could make more money if they increased their capacity and lowered their price.

Lol, this is the ultimate "Gee, do ya think?" video title on KZread.

Totally agree guys - when you look at brands like Monta, Formex and Ginault who are producing very well made watches for affordable prices - it’s becoming ridiculous. Maybe Monta and Formex should be some of the best watches on the market!

@calumpatondrone

Жыл бұрын

@@Jonnybravo6742 I own the Ginault OR2 and have a formex essence 39 on its way. I also own a Christopher Ward c60 Trident mark 3. It’s incredible what the smaller brands are making. Hope you enjoy the Monta and Silent service.

Dead on accurate. Prices of watches and cars have gotten insanely out of control. Wife and I make a decent living, yet we still can't fathom paying today's prices for a watch or a car. A used Submariner 114060 for $11k? A Cadillac Escalade V for $200k? Eroded duplex homes with 2 bedrooms now cost $250k USD while normal detached houses with more than 3 rooms costs over half a million dollars. Heck, even a normal family car like a Toyota 4Runner now is about $50k. You used to be able to find incredible AMG Mercs or Porsches for $50k 10 years ago. It's left a sour taste for the watch hobby, I'm seriously considering selling Speedmaster 3861 and Heuer Carrera and just moving on to another hobby...even servicing costs ($500-$1000 USD) have come to cost as much as most new mid tier watches.

especially rolex for an average movement in a steel watch im not paying that much

I've wanted a Submariner, but know I'll never be able to get one, and AD won't put me on a waiting list. Now it's ok for me. I have now found my microbrand, and enjoy my watches bought from them at a reasonable price and quality that is more than good enough for me.

We are in a golden age of watches. There has never been more innovation, creativity in horology than there is today - and it's being driven by microbrands, and their ability to communicate directly to consumers. The watch world is generally so cringey and microbrands are where it is at.

Good vid guys: in 47th St in Manhattan I would estimate there are 15-20,000 used Rolexes (mostly subs/gmts/Daytonas/Explorers) 'do the math'. Across 40-50 shops. If they all agreed to take a 40%mark up, instead of 80-100%, they'd all make more money than they ever would (turnover v profit model) they'd drive the price down across the market by increasing supply and everyone would be happy. Instead Rolex are muscling in on the grey market and will, soon, be selling older versions of current models at higher prices than the MSP in their own ADs. Surely a form of madness?

The problem is, some brands are pricing in the 20-30% discount at retail. Thats why I like Tudor, Rolex and IWC--the price is more firm, less games being played. A lot of industries, not only watches, are moving from dealers and instead towards direct to consumer. Breitling has this problem--excellent watches, best boutiques around, but if AD will give me 25% off without me even asking, why would I purchase from the boutique or website?

Everyone wants to move upmarket these days. I've wanted a Speedy for about 8 years now. With the latest price increases this year, I can't justify it as a purchase anymore. Instead, I've started looking into less popular but higher-end manufacturers like Blancpain. There are some pieces on the 2nd hand market that while still expensive do offer more horology for the money.

That was really interesting and probably echoed alot of enthusiasts opinions.

What watch is Richard wearing here? Looks good. Is it a Smiths AIR MINISTRY PRS-29AM?

Good video...really talks to me. Im pretty much resigned to only being able to buy one more watch now....the prices are just oit of control. A year a go an aqua terra was 5k...now its just off 6k....that is crazy

@davidcrandall4958

Жыл бұрын

you'll never be able to do it!

@StruanRobertson29

Жыл бұрын

@@davidcrandall4958 cool mate...what ever you say....keep going the way you are with the same sentiment in your heart....truly an awful way to live a life...all the best to you

Even Seikos are getting stupidly expensive.

In this position at the moment where I would love a Rolex Explorer 40 but the cost is far too much for me, find myself looking at the Tudor Ranger but can’t pull the trigger as it’s not what I really want

Rolex 904L steel costs pennies. Yes it’s more expensive than 316, but the difference is insignificant. Note Omega were the first to experiment with 904L

I'm fairly new to this hobby and only recently dipped my toes into the higher (which means lower end for others), and I find that what budget watch meant a few years ago, doesn't mean budget now. I'm sure the same could be said for higher end watches. I'd hate to think what an entry level Rolex or Omega cost in ten years.

I wonder what the landscape would look like if you compared average watch prices to the average salary today, an average house was about 4x an average salary but today is more like 8x

These guys are great!

I am turning 40 years old, bought a brand new JLC Reverso tribute (steel, monoface, time only) as my milestone watch, a couple hundreds shy from 10'000 CHF 🙄🙄🙄 I did it but things are getting pretty insane

It seems, even a good value for money brand, such as ORIS, is moving g into a higher tier, ,where the value proposition, is watered down.

Thank you for speaking your mind! I guess I’m a grumpy old guy now too since I completely agree! I’ve been a watch enthusiast my whole life but only now that I’m 40 can I actually afford the watches I’ve pined over for decades. But now I can’t afford anything new and I’m just as frustrated as you are. I’m retiring from the military next year and have wanted a Speedmaster or a Rolex Datejust as my retirement gift and the new prices are just insane! I’d have to get some used or different entirely. Then I will probably always be wondering if I should have got what I wanted. But with a family and kids, it’s just not feasible. Signed, Disappointed Watch Enthusiast.

@minimalistmaverick

Жыл бұрын

The price you pay for being a responsible / practical adult lol. The reality is a lot of people who have even bought nice watches, or have built "collections" in the last couple years, probably have no business owning ANY watches. I could buy an entire collection of rolex's for cash if i wanted (not trying to flex). But i didn't get to the point of having that kind of money by buying overly inflated stupid items like a luxury watch.

@VMIyanks04

Жыл бұрын

@@minimalistmaverick you’re exactly right, I completely agree. I have the money, but it’s just flat-out dumb to pay that much for it. Teddy did a great video about how the Rolex OP is the best watch for that category, but only when it was at its original $6-7K price, but simply not worth $10K. There was another video with the Watchfinder guys and a grey market dealer that helped to explain the explosion of prices due to a perfect storm of COVID, government’s printing extra money and people not traveling, compounded with Social Media influence = watch enthusiasts suffer price increases to the non-watch enthusiasts flex culture.

I'm sure someone else already said this (I haven't read all the comments) but isn't the Tudor similar quality to what Rolex was in the 90's? I had a couple Rolex's in that period and they were not the same quality as today.

The reason these price rises are successful is that people now see buying the watch as an investment. They can park the money in the watch for a few years then sell it and get the money back out and probably even a profit on top. So this has nothing to do with consumerism or spending but investing and moving money around. If you took away the ability to sell a watch or the ability to break even / profit every time then this would all cease instantly.

Finally a sobering discussion on this very contentious topic. Thanks Guys!

I remember buying my 18k Daytona at 23% discount available on the spot, like £9750 or some such. My 6263 big red was £15k. Were not talking decades ago

Got to tip your hat to Mike France from CW for disclosing the multiplyers thst the Swiss are using and also that the big boys are making the parts in the same factory to the same standard as the parts in the 12.