The issue more has to do with the space marine player community having an identity crisis more then it does the design of the codex/armies. Every space marine player (including myself) at one point (hopefully its sooner rather than later like it was for me) will go though this super weird identity crisis where the army rules and the codex's corresponding abilities have to fit their chapter EXTREMELY specifically and be powerful while still having that identity or they will get jealous with chapter envy over what space marine chapters are currently just better. The best response back to that mindset is- Why? Just use their rules! The community needs to really take into the idea that it's not "Divergent" and "non-Divergent" chapters, everyone needs to look at just "Space Marines". I currently collect/play Raven Guard and Blood Angels and have been playing now for 10+ years- the only reason why i collect more than 1 marine chapter is because i just love the lore of the two chapters so much along with their color design i wanted to collect two, but there is nothing preventing me from painting my Blood Angels in their Blood Angels colors and then using Dark Angels datasheets and rules. I do it all the time! It's a converters wet dream because I could paint and build really good looking Blood Angel assault terminators with more unique designs to make them stand out from my normal terminators and they count as my "Deathwing Knights" while im using the Dark Angel rules. This new codex has a GREAT example for White Scar players; for the Stormlance Taskforce it's obvious the new rules are better for Space Wolves over White Scars. And? So? As a White Scar player just use your imagination and build some really good looking White Scar bikers (you most likely already have some) or models that are on the same base size (or just change the base size out) as the thunderwolf cav and just use Space Wolf unit rules when playing your army. Just because they are using Space Wolves rules doesn't mean the models are not White Scars; you painted them White and they have a red/yellow lightning bolt- they are White Scars, the rules they are using means nothing. I do this ALL the time as Raven Guard, i'd use Corax on the same base size as Guillman and use my Corax as my 40k Guillman. Even from a competitive/tournament standpoint its not illegal or frowned upon, if anything you will get praise for your conversions and commitment to the chapter you like from every side of the community. I've seen and done it PLENTLY of times and never once i have ever seen anyone in person say they were upset about that. There's a reason why this type of thing is almost never an issue with like any Xenos faction community and its because those communities just get over the "identity crisis". That's another reason why i love Xenos armies.

@XealotCoils

9 ай бұрын

If I wanted to play DA, I'd collect DA. If I wanted to play DW, I'd play DW. But I don't. I want to play IF. Coming from 9th, I never changed from being an IF player. I changed to a successor player because of my homebrew, and that ironically enough playing with successor chapters was far better than playing the IF rules. Is it too much to ask for a bit more fair power scaling? It was getting tiring being told that my faction was OP thanks to mono deathwing.

@archonwut1624

9 ай бұрын

@@XealotCoils But there isn't any reason at all why you can't play and build a fluffy AND competitive list with your Imperial Fists without using the Anvil Siege Force, you could easily make a list with your IF that looks, feels fluffy and is competitive using the Ironstorm Spearhead detachment. I could use my Raven Guard right now and make a list for the Stormlance that is fluffy to Raven Guard lore and would be pretty strong even tho the Stormlance is "supposed" to be for White Scars. You're putting barriers in your own way for like no reason. I do get your point-wanting to have those "exclusive" rules only tailored to your what color your guys are and lore-imho its a very very outdated way of thinking especially with marines. I would consider myself lucky cause im in love with the Vanguard detachment with my Raven Guard but im going to be running ALL of the detachments and most likely the Firestorm one is going to be my favorite but i WILL make them all fluffy and hit really hard because the codex is allowing you to do that.

@XealotCoils

9 ай бұрын

@@archonwut1624 yeah but then there is no identity or point to the chapters. This issue is exacerbated when you factor in that the divergent chapters are more likely to be more powerful than basic marines. The reason why I think there is an identity crisis is because before 10th you were very much encouraged to play the chapter your marines were painted as, esp if the chapter iconography is on them. There was an effort to remove incongruence. But I doubt any list I can make would be competitive. Cause you have to play divergent or UM to be competitive. It's been like that way for ages, and I doubt an edition change will fix that.

@archonwut1624

9 ай бұрын

@@XealotCoils The point and identity of the chapters is how you represent the army/chapter you are in love with, regardless of where the rules come from as long as its within "Space Marines". You don't need games workshop to make you tons of "powerfully viable" rules specifically for your Imperial Fists and ONLY for them and reward weird "devotion" to make you feel like you are invested or represented within your chapter. If you do feel that way then I'm sorry but that sounds like a complete total nightmare to me because you'll never be satisfied i feel like. I 100% feel like you can make a really cool ass Imperial Fist army with ALL the rules within this new Codex that is fluffy to them and still competitive, and i hope you do find that feeling.

@yaboiyojimbo2025

9 ай бұрын

@@archonwut1624 100% agreed , The lore and looks stay the same afterall, but the amazing bonus is: you can play it whatever way you like which imo is the best direction Marines could go since there are a whole lot of unique chapters with unique lore etc. Its amazing how much player expression can be possible without shooting yourself in the knee because your chapter is not flavour of the month meta wise.

They should address this by releasing a build your own hero kit with lots of different options with points values that dictate the cost of your hero that you build. This would obviously not be allowed with divergent Chapters as we have our own heroes and unique units. I think these would be super popular for custom chapters and a great source of bits for divergent chapters too. They could do this with a custom intercessor squad or something too with cool weapon options to create your own unique ranged or melee units. Just a thought on balancing things out.

@bojoggs-ik8tq

9 ай бұрын

They could just have a generic chaptermaster index with some stratagem stuff

@william9557

9 ай бұрын

Except the sm still have their normal chapter specific dudes for sallies and ravens, etc. Where would they fit in this too? Becauee right now, its hard to sell playing as raven guard for just one model as an example

@danielroberts8049

8 ай бұрын

Sorry, only power level

I wonder if the divergent chapters will be forced to use their own detachments when their codexes come out

@maciekwilkosz6377

9 ай бұрын

Probably not, but it would be fair that way.

@notknightbean

9 ай бұрын

I doubt it. From a sales perspective it wouldn’t help gw and would be a step back from the “paint doesn’t define models”. Also 3 of the 5 divergent chapters (dark angels, blood angels, and space wolves) have successors so cutting them out would suck.

@TauEnjoyer

9 ай бұрын

i hope so

@scolack123

9 ай бұрын

Theyll probably only have 3 extras per divergent codex So 4 total unique ones

@flameski_

9 ай бұрын

​@@notknightbean3 of the 5 chapters what? The suspence!

Last time I was this early, the Emperor still conquered the stars

I think this could be fixed though a simple upgrade pack. Give the non divergent the access to a unique unit. Iron hands upgrade terminators to Hel Fathers from lore. Salamanders get a flamer specialist, Ultamarines Victrix guard and Scars get a unique bike upgrade. This way you can choose to learn more into the faction more and be rewarded for their lore/ playstyle.

@Ottersanity

9 ай бұрын

I’m curious what the Imperial Fist would have then?

@chaoticrevenge7950

9 ай бұрын

​@@OttersanityGun

@TauEnjoyer

9 ай бұрын

would be nice, but too much work for GW..

@javiergildeavila4449

9 ай бұрын

1 unit? thats a bit shitty, i mean .. the number of units should be the same or remove some important units from other chapters

9 ай бұрын

@@Ottersanity Titanhammer squad, Sternhelms, Huscarls, Phalanx Warders (or another variant of Breachers) - plenty of options.

Divergent chapters should have access to gladius, first company, and their unique detachment. Then maybe get 3 unique detachments when they get a codex. Compliant chapters should have access to all of the detachments in the main codex.

@sbeaber

9 ай бұрын

Yeah. I think this is legit. Gladius, Unique detachment, and possible the 1st company one (Dark Angel probably deserve their own unique one there) and 1 or 2 extra unique ones.

@terrildonaldson532

9 ай бұрын

This is the best answer I’ve seen so far!

@DJRaffa1000

9 ай бұрын

That is a really genius idea. Would preserve their status as "still space marines" while avoiding the awkward "why do your dark angels work line iron hands" Situation we have at the Moment. Gladius as all-rounder and first company because every chapter has a first company, make total sense to have accessible for all users of the Codex astartes.

Possible solution: Chapter specific character & unit for each major chapter. For example: -Imperial Fists: Add a special Heavy Intercessor units with powerful bonuses to their Bolt Weapons. Maybe Sustained Hits 2 & can gain the benefits of cover even though they have a 3+. -Raven Guard: Jump Pack Reiver unit with Lightning Claws & Haywire Mines that can join Kayvaan Shrike. Primaris version of the Dark Fury squad from 30K. -Salamanders: TH & SS Terminators with Heavy Flamers on their shoulder. Call them Fire Drakes. Maybe extra S or damage on their THs.

@terrildonaldson532

9 ай бұрын

I think this will ultimately happen. Just like ultramarines with. Victrix(which should be expanded some, or bring back tyranic war vets) when big updates come for some of these chapters like Vulcan coming back, or corax coming back they’ll hopefully get a new unit! I truly think it’s in the plans!

Restricting those chapters' units to the detachments they get in their eventual codexes would be pretty "feels bad" for the players, I'd say. Unfortunately it seems like the only way to truly balance this situation. They probably won't do it, but i suppose only time will tell. The other solution would be to, say, add another character and a unique unit to every single chapter with less than, say, 3. Korsarro, Kayvaan, Feirros, these guys are all alone as the only unique datasheets in their lists. They all deserve more. Literally anything to make picking a specific chapter more appealing for *some* reason. Unique phobos unit for RG, a named Khan or Lieutenant on bike for Scars, a character dreadnought for Iron Hands, just *anything* to give players a reason to pick those.

@william9557

9 ай бұрын

They also need to make more specific units for the other founding chapters. Why they, the OGs get nothing, while silly deus vult in space black templars who arent even a founding chapter, gets so much baffles me They could literally just use what they have released in HH. Mor deythan. Pyroclasts. Its not hard.

@ShadowCoH316

9 ай бұрын

@william9557 absolutely. As it stands now there's just no incentive to run those chapter characters unless you're getting a LOT from it. Like, I'll run Kayvaan alot bevause he's actually pretty solid, but I'll probably convert my own "counts as" Dante and Sanguinary Priest in order to play around with the unique datasheets a bit. Just kind of a bummer that we can't get support for the other chapters.

I think the issue will be when trying to balance the main codex, as if DA or BA for example use a unit very well, or if buffing ig would make it beoken for the divergent chapters, it will mean the main SM will be nerfed because of it. Look at Drukari raiders, nerfed because Ynnari were taking them a lot

At the beginning of 10th, I created my own chapter. I stripped the models I had and gave them the new color scheme. So now I'm able to run them either as Dark Angels or Black Templars because I've made them look like a bit of both. In theory, I could keep adding other chapters whenever I want and use the same core of codex units. But Lore and Aesthetics-wise, they make sense as knights of a hybrid chapter. Everyone could make an "agnostic" successor chapter and use any rules or any chapter units they decide to buy into. But the artistic aspect of the hobby needs to be considered. You gotta sell the idea of these guys having a real place in the lore, not just a chapter of convenience.

@Pesso86

9 ай бұрын

The paladins of convenience. Their homeworld is called Lidl

As a blood angel player, I'd be perfectly content if I could only use Blood Angel specific units Like Death Company or Sanguinary Guard in the SoS detachment. Then they would be forced to make the detachment actually viable

@slayahm4ster

9 ай бұрын

"Forced to" i like your optimism but dont share it lol

@reaver102102

9 ай бұрын

This is literally the best solution but a lot of people don't want to hear it. I'm personally sick of seeing people playing BT and putting Librarians in Crusader Squads.

@noahreiniger4955

9 ай бұрын

@@reaver102102 sounds so cursed 💀

I don't think it's right to take anything away from the divergent chapters (unless there are some exceptions that are extremely unbalanced). I think the solution is to give the codex-compliant chapters some bonuses - preferably by making more models for them, but in short term by making their unique characters so good that limiting yourself to this specific chapter actually might be worth it.

@DJRaffa1000

9 ай бұрын

The problem is, if you give codex compliant chapters new bonuses or anything. Then divergent chapters automatically get the same because they can just use that detachment anyways.

@maleparagonultragod8240

9 ай бұрын

I think Uriel ventris is possibly a slept on character for granting deep strike. At 75 points I think he is a steal

@PandaKnightsFightingDragons

9 ай бұрын

The only way to really buff the codex chapters without inadvertently buffing the divergent chapters is more characters. Characters are all they really have as reasons to play them other than "I like them"

Codex-compliment chapters just need more love and models, because yes at the moment codex chapters are just marines without extra units from divergent ones. Maybe restrict, divergent chapters with some units the only codex marines can take to make them feel like their own thing since they did get their own whole units and tons of characters vs our 1 hero.

Space wolves with advance and charge with Logar Grimnar giving a Waaagghh seems fun

@stevenburton7725

9 ай бұрын

I like the Ironstorm detachment a little more. Six Techmarines with Dreadnaughts!

@sbeaber

9 ай бұрын

@@stevenburton7725 How do you get 6? The Firstborn techmarine is now legends, iirc.

@stevenburton7725

9 ай бұрын

@@sbeaber iron priests are techmarines

As someone who plays two divergent chapters (Space wolves and Dark Angels) I suspect the answer (or as close to one as exists) is to make Kaavan Shrike, Korsaro Khan and similar models basically free. If you only have one unique character then make that character an auto-include, I doubt folks would be upset by having their chapter master be awesome.

I have a theory that Auspex is a Tech-Priest. The soothing monotone voice, his ability to keep making these videos daily in spite of sleep deprivation, his seemingly endless well of knowledge that makes you question how he knows so much if he didn’t have a computer replacing half his brain.

@C1ickityC1ack

9 ай бұрын

“ASMR Protocols: Initiated” [echoey tin-can robo-voice]

The biggest problem with the divergent chapters right now is that their specific units haven't received their individual codex updates. For example, if I run a Dark Angels list I can't attach Azrael to a company heroes squad yet, even though he will most likely get the ability to lead this squad when the Dark Angels codex comes out next year. Other than that, you get more toys to play with in the different detachments, so it's largely a positive.

@dittmar104

9 ай бұрын

Yeah they should have had like a “chapter masters can be selected to lead this unit if no other character has been selected yet.” Ability

@hickorybane9323

9 ай бұрын

Yeah my captain on foot can no longer attach to wolf guard (although I'm sure my casual games will allow it lol). Wolf guard count as assault squads when attaching leaders, and with assault squads going the way of the dodo no generic sm characters can attach to them (space wolf characters call them out specifically as a possible bodyguard unit).

Black templar player here. I've only ever used our detachment. Although some of thr new ones look cool

@scolack123

9 ай бұрын

Try the firestorm or stormlance one

Maybe give each divergent chapter 3 - 6 unique detachments, and lock them out of the main codex space marine detachments. I think it would be easy enough to communicate that the divergent ones can't use the default ones in their own codex and index, and balancing detachments with how strong the unique units are vs normal space marines getting somewhat better detachments might be more doable.

To an extent you also get a similar thing within the non-divergent chapters with ultramarines vs everyone else, due to just the sheer quantity of special characters the ultramarines get, especially prior to the recent culling. What makes this frustrating is that I remember all the way back in 5th edition when these characters were introduced, Matt ward made a point in an interview that these characters were designed to fill archetypes and really any chapter could run any combination of "counts as", for instance Iron hands taking Chronus or Raven guard taking Telion. The shift to "you can only take characters from one chapter" from 8th edition onwards is something I've honestly just really questioned for a long time now, as I think it really does limit options for proxies and interesting homebrew lore. Something along the lines of divergent units all having to be from the same chapter but otherwise having freedom when it comes to special characters and detachments. That said, I come at this from the pov of a painter and non-competitive player so I'm sure that's quite different to the views of competitive players.

@renkol123

9 ай бұрын

This is what always gets me about this conversation. I get my BA have special units that Salamanders don't get, but why are people acting like that makes it a problem compared to ALL the Ultramarines-only characters? You can't use them either. I think everyone should get special toys for their guys. I would totally support Salamanders or RG or WS-only units.

@yoyoimokazaki

9 ай бұрын

the move away from 5th editions kitbashing and counts as was a move for the worst I think that some armies have suffered quite alot for.

As a space wolves player I’m really happy having access to the other detachments as the champions of Russ detachment is SO BAD

In the thumbnail, shouldn't the ultramarine be on the right in the form of Guilliman? Is it really the divergent chapters getting access to codex detachments, or is it compliment chapters getting access to divergent units? Hopefully when the codicies come out, we get a lot Primaris units rolled into chapter specific ones like Blood Claws, Long Fangs etc.

The new system in 10th means you can play using dark angel rules but have a unit with a different color. So I can make a kitbash of some outriders and give them power swords and stuff, treat them as black knights and they’d be a valid unit.

Easy solution: Add points cost to detachments and give each codex compliant chapter at least 1 hero, 1 generic leader and 2 generic upgraded units with their faction keyword. For example salamanders get - Vulkan, He'stan - Adrax, Agatone - apothecary draconis (apothecary biologis with a salamanders upgrade sprue that can rez people), - blazing aggressors (aggressors box with an added salamanders upgrade sprue that can only equip flamestorms but gets +1 to strength, +1 to wound and +1AP) - charring infernos (infernus squad with a salamanders upgrade sprue that gets oc2 and Battleline) White scars get: - Korsarro Khan - Wind chaplain (chaplain on bike with WS upgrade sprue that gives +2 to advance and charge) - Hurricane outriders (outriders with WS upgrade sprue that get +1 to woun and can be joined by two ATVs) - Storm ATVs (ATVs with WS upgrade sprue that gets -1 to wound for enemies and can be brought in units of two) Etc. No sculpting or production need, just some box art and repackaging. codex compliant, because they are just the original unit (but really good in their job). And you can release it in a campaign style book before they become a permanent addition in 11th or the second codex SM.

So here’s my thoughts. You can always use divergent units in a codex compliant chapter so long as you don’t use any epic heroes and don’t mix chapters. Essential you just have to make Proxies, or you chapters version of the unit. For example, instead of sanguinary guard, I can proxy ravenguard dark furies. Switch one lightning claw for a melta pistol and it’s all the same. There’s plenty to pull from in the lore. Just have to be a bit creative.

With much if the heresy line going plastic you could make it so certain codex chapters get thematic heresy units. Iron hands/ fists get dreads and tanks, scars get jet bikes and speeders, raven guard get jump units of all types. You could limit to one of each type per game and three total per army. Or you could make renown units like a special unit of flamers called the pyre brotherhood with better stats and upgraded weapons for salamanders but limit to three

GW needs to back to the idea that the divergent chapters don’t get everything the standard codex chapters get access to. Because the divergent chapters get units the compliant chapters don’t have. I liked this back in the day because it also made the divergent chapters truly a little different. I’ve always played DA, and BA fyi.

Divergent and Core Space Marine Chapters only have to be balanced against *each other* for tournament play ... which is the vast minority of players and games. For kitchen tabke top games the balance should largely come from: [A] narrative wise, it's unlikely two Chaoters fight each other [B] friends communicating and agreeing on what's a tolerable balance between them all

I love how the MOMENT Imperial fists get some kinda themed detachment, their first reaction is to nerf one of their only 2 characters. Why take Lethal hits off of Tor Garadon? Like come on. :(

@samuelpaquette1618

9 ай бұрын

Because it makes the Apothecary Biologis with Bolter Discipline more relevant to the agressor unit he joins.

@JoeNokers

9 ай бұрын

​@@samuelpaquette1618is it really such a bad thing that an epic hero outperforms a general 50pt model?

I just want more love for the Codex Compliant chapters that AREN'T the Ultramarines. More special characters for everyone. More special units. Imagine Gorgon Pattern Terminators in an upscaled form for the Iron Hands with new Iron Father models. That would be epic

Interesting. The fliers for Dark Angels certainly got a boost if you go Vanguard Detachment. Start in hover and have stealth and cover and a 5++. Then use the Strike from the Shadows Strat on one…

I feel this is less an issue that divergent chapters have unique units so much as codex compliant ones have maybe only one unique characters and nothing special for themselves. If codex compliant chapters want to drop their one unique hero, they are more than welcome to use the divergent detachments. I don't see Iron Hands players wanting to use Champions of Russ though. Wonder why.

I think we are more likely to have divergent codexes force people to play their detachments when the time comes, rather than giving Dark Angels like 12 detachments to pick from in total. I think in the long run, the "paint doesn't matter" is still fine as you could run regular marines as Dark Angels etc if you want.

It’s crazy how different CSM is than it’s divergent brothers but Marines get stuck (unless Blue) with 1 or 2 unique models but being balanced against chapters that can take dozens of unique units

@thefloridaman41

9 ай бұрын

Also they don’t need to weaken the divergent chapters, just buff the Chapter Masters way up. They shouldn’t feel like just another Captain option, they should feel like mini-Primarchs. I mean they are legendary badasses even amongst the Space Marines.

@mouthwide0pen

8 ай бұрын

​@@thefloridaman41Now this runs the issue of being forced to run the chapter master, though.

Im curious though, the Divergent Chapters in their respective rules all say "You may include *blank* units in your army" doesnt that imply you cant say use space wolve units unless using that detachment

@TideUltra13-ex3xl

9 ай бұрын

No, it means you cannot bring a chapter specific unit in the champions of russ detachment unless its a space wolf unit.

@AshenHawk96

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, basically you can run can't mix chapter-specific units no matter which way you slice it, be it as the generic space marines detachment or a chapter-specific detachment. No Marneus Calgar alongside a Crusader Squadron, no Space Wolf and Blood Angels tag team, etc. One interesting thing I noted (at least in the Index rules) is that the Black Templars' specific "Rightous Crusaders" detachment forbids the use of Psyker units... but then Psykers are just fine when running Black Templars as the "Gladius Task Force" detachment, and presumably any of the other detachments coming in the Codex.

@Calvin_Coolage

9 ай бұрын

​@@AshenHawk96That's definitely something they'll change when the Black Templars codex drops.

Hot take : Tigurius (with half a tactical squad in a RB), Uriel Ventris (with your choice of unit but Eradicators are an obvious one) and Calgar + Ventrix Guards (with agressors ) makes Ultramarines > than divergent chapters ? I agree some detachments will work better for divergent chapters, but unique characters/units are what will really make the difference IMO.

Yes divergent chapter are better than codex compliant as they get more rule options and unit options. an example can be black templars vehicles having access to an extra gun with muli-melta options for all tanks, The Repulsors get an extra gun for like 5 extra points. Having better version of units to normal units that can take better use of normal space marine detachments like Space wolves better over white scars in the fast mounted detachment. The only fix is when divergent chapters get their codex and split them from codex compliant chapters.

tbh going the same route as they have with DG, WE, and Tsons as well as the obviously upcoming EmpChildren and making a different army rule for each of the divergent chapters at minimum would be wise if not literally make them entirely separate books with some units just not being available to certain ones of them that or just say if you want to use DA units eg deathwing terms that they can only be fielded in a DA detachment but that is basically the same as separating them out into a standalone book with the need for both books

@americancapitalist4573

9 ай бұрын

When Fulgrim comes into 40k I better get my fresh new updated Gorgon Terminators.

@americancapitalist4573

9 ай бұрын

Honestly I would prefer everyone to have their own books. There is no need for a Vanilla ‘dex. One of the main issues in 9th was rules disparity on the same units at the same cost, a Blood Angels Assault Intercessor was NOT the same as an Iron Hands Assault Intercessor clearly the Blood Angels one was worth more. Now in 10th the problem is magnified, a Raven Guard Impulsor with a Heavy Stubber is 85 points(currently) but a Black Templars Impulsor with a Multi-Melta is also 85 points. Clearly these are NOT equal but get the same rules and points values? Oh, my bad the Black Templars Impulsor gets more options for rules AND costs the same. For a different take is CSM, they have a different problem. The only options to not take Index:Abaddon is to run another faction that doesn’t rely on a vanilla codex. Iron Warriors should be in a different book entirely separate from Nightlords. If completely separate books is a no go, lets go back to the style of the 9th ed CSM book; whole legion rules, strats, and relics had their own sections…so why not unique units too?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There's no reason why your "ultramarines" couldn't play the Blood Angels detachment, to take advantage they have to buy some Blood Angel models just like Blood Angel players need to buy Guilliman if they want to use him with the benefit of other Ultra characters. And they could also run the Blood Angel detachment with generic space marine units. The whole point of detaching paint from rules was to make everything possible. That is to say, give people (even more) freedom to do with the rules what they will. As an added bonus: no reason for silly gatekeepers to "um actually" their fun. Even if that voice is their own.

I think it's possible to balance them, but not probable, as we're talking about GW. I would personally like it if those diversion chapters, had different stuff, as they didn't follow the codex. Like they can get the 1st chapter one, and they don't get the rest when their codexs come out. Could be similar things, but more geared towards those chapters.

@criticalcommenter

9 ай бұрын

If they came out and were balanced people would complain that they might as well play vanilla marines. GW can never win. I think the approach of just ignoring it is a good policy from them

As a Blood angels player besides a couple characters there’s mostly some sort of alternate version for basic space marine, with a couple of exceptions but GW just need to make more characters for other but it’s what sells most

'Since space marines already have chapter keywords that allow the inclusion of certain units only to the exclusion of others, it would seem an easy fix to just start barring some units that don't have a specific chapter keyword from certain chapters by adding a list of units that can never be a part of the divergent chapter in that chapter's index/codex/supplement. And have that tied to the chapter keyword rather than the chosen detachment. This would still give the divergent chapters a greater choice of detachments but at least bar their access to units they really shouldn't have.

So I'm just painting some grey Space Marines. I'll grab bits and pieces from different armies and just use the army as whichever I want at the time. As long as I don't take from two different divergents at the same time I can use them as DA, BA, DW, whatever. There'll be plenty of overlap anyway. Actually painting and collecting a specific known chapter seems a less good option... Blood Angels can only be Blood Angels.

I honestly don't think this is TOO much of a issue, at least as far as 40K balance is concerned. Though, with that said, I also feel the worst case scenario has already happened with the White scars being inferior compared to Space Wolves and Dark Angels in their own detachment (Though, granted, that has just as much to do with how many bikes have been removed). I do however think it shows that Codex compliant chapters that aren't Ultramarines really do need a bit more love. I get that Marine unit bloat is already an bit of a issue, but now that the Primaris line seems mostly done outside a few heavy weapon variants and old marines are being done away with can we try to give some unique stuff to each chapter? I also understand that most codex compliant chapters are never going to be as popular as, say, Blood Angels or Dark Angels but giving them some cool models would almost certainly earn them more fans. Bring back Corax as a giant eagle demon and you would probably triple the amount of dedicated Raven Guard players overnight. In the short term though, I think one decent solution would be to have a few unique units that don't require new models. Similar to what they did with Death Company Intercessors or Hounds of Morkai. Like giving White Scars an stormspeeder variant that counts as a mounted unit so they can actually benefit form their detachment. You could have quite a bit of fun with it, like Raven Guard having mixed Phobos units or Iron Hands being able to squad up Dreadnoughts. It's not a perfect solution, but in the short term it would give them more of a reason to exist. Though, there is of course the alternate and arguably even more easy solution of just removing Chapter specific tags altogether for codex compliant chapters. I find it hard to imagine that being able to field Guilliman and Pedro Kantor in the same army would break the game.

If this was an actual problem divergent chapters wouldn't have worse win rates than the other chapters... Which was the issue the whole index phase for BA and SW

My hope would be maybe their special units will have a keyword only usable in their detachments. They can run all detachments but only will have their special stuff in their own detachments. Outside characters.

My main concern is that one of the divergent chapters ends up being an absolute powerhouse due to unbalanced non-compliant units, only for GW to turn around and nerf codex-compliant units to bring the subfaction back in line. We've already been nerfed by the upcoming codex, and I'm not keen to start catching strays.

Can someone enlighten me about the specifics of this? What about enhancements and stratagems? Am I locked to the chapter's choices or can I use those from the detachment? And if so, can I choose from both?

It would be really cool to see a pick 4 rules system where your chapter has 2 rules exclusive to your chapter but then you have around 5 options for just space marines in general. Each chapter would also have around 5 unique stratagems that only they could use. Chapters should each have at least 1 unique variation of units exclusive to them. For example Salamanders could have a special slightly stronger aggressor and white scars have a unique biker variation. I think a system like this would make it easier to balance while still keeping flavor and individuality. That way you have the option of playing lore accurate or more competitive.

@maxlisbin5643

9 ай бұрын

they had this with custom chapter traits. usually, specific chapter/subfaction was best, or one combo of traits was just immensely strong and everyone took that.

If they unlocked the codex marine special characters, it might make the chapters with fewer more viable, IE. the Raven Guard can grab captain totally not Sakaro Khan to go along with Captain Shrike , and Chief Librarian definitely not Tiberius.

They just need some auto-include characters. For example, making Gman and Calgar very strong options for Ultramarines. Gman feels too expensive for competitive lists, but when you bring him he really gives a unique feel. Lots of armies have auto includes.

I love this because my salamanders army can get access to deathwatch veterans / kill team proteus which has access to alot of infernus heavy bolters and heavy flamers and thunder hammers, very thematic

@Postpar

9 ай бұрын

Kinda, you lose all salamanders characters if you play deathwatch

As an Imperial fists I can confirm our rules were meh all 9th edition, but I still want my funny bolters back and dream of 40k fists getting good rules like our 30k brothers. (I feel if they leaned the fluff a little harder like they do with some of the 30k rules space marines would stand against eachoter a little better but since they went the well you are all marines but different colors a lot of the uniqueness and strength of say a fluffy salamaders detachment is lost as now people other then the guy who has 100 flamers in his army and that was his thing can use the good flamer rules. They have to make sure that while it is for salmaders who love flamers but it needs to be usable to an imperial fist who wants flamers thus kinda shooting it in the foot balance-wise as it now has to be a good take for the guy who only has 20 flamers and not feel op when you fight the guy with 100.

Why not give each divergent chapter a subset of the core datasheets and detachments? It's not a complete answer but it would mean they had specific character rather than just being SM+.

I think divergent chapters should have limited access to the detachments of the core. We should still get Gladius and 1st company as some others have suggested I don't think this is enough. I also think GW needs to put in the effort and for each of the compliant first founding chapters create an unique unit. I don't mean a captain or LT, though each first founding should have at least one of each. I mean a unique squad of some sort. The units datasheet should specify that this unit can only be used when playing with the keyword. There should be a heavy focus on ensuring the "Chapter Unit" hyper synergizes with the chapter's detachment rule. This means they only have to focus on designing 6 units and I'm not going to count ensuring a unique captain and LT as work for them because they crap models of those out every other day. I think this is the little bit needed to divert compliant chapters from one another and give them their own sorta balance and counter balance to the divergent chapters without taking away the uniqueness of the divergent chapters.

I see two things they can do. First, give all chapters access to the divergent chapters detachments. A group of say Iron Hands can also be stubborn and aware enough to keep some control of the immediate area even when battle shocked. Or some White Scars being bolstered by the deeds of their leaders. The second part, since points are digital, is to give the divergent chapters a different point cost for core units if they want to use their unique ones. This could be used to reinforce the uniqueness of the chapter and make units that would prove troublesome in combination more expensive than usual for them.

I think they could address this issue by investing a bit more into some of the less divergent chapters. Why not give each chapter a unique unit, and make it a decently strong one. That would redress the balance a bit. They could give White Scars a special version of the outrider squad, with some strong rules that synergise with their detachment and maybe let them take some better combat weapons. If they don't have time to make full new sculpts, it could even just be based on an upgrade sprue for the normal outriders. I'm sure they could some up with something that would still look cool. It wouldn't take that much effort and it would give people more of a reason to consider white scars. Just being able to spam 3 units of a strong datasheet that nobody else has, gives a good reason to play them.

@themilo1567

9 ай бұрын

Agree. Hell, they basically already did that for some of the "Unique" Primaris units for Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Only real downside is it would add more marine datasheets. But, frankly, the fact they are specific to each chapter makes that less of a issue than it would normally.

Codex compliant chapters are space marine MINUS. They all deserve some more units, because they are all basically the same chapter now

@TideUltra13-ex3xl

9 ай бұрын

good, making each chapter its own faction was a mistake, divergent chapters should be their own factions, same as the cult legions. SM has too much units variety already, while other factions are stuck with half their range in finecast, made to order rotation or have barely any units.

@AzkuulaKtaktu

9 ай бұрын

@@TideUltra13-ex3xl them too

@Nikkehansson

9 ай бұрын

@@TideUltra13-ex3xl I have hated every edition where BA had their own codex because changes implemented in codex SM, as well as new units etc, would take months or sometimes years to affect BA. Supplements are the most elegant solution to me. I play chaos as well and I think splitting them up has only harmed factions like WE due to the extremely limited amount of data sheets they are now allowed to use

As a Dark Angels player, I'm definitely biased towards it being fine that divergent chapters can use the core detachments and still have access to all their unique units. The Unforgiven detachment currently gives me very little unless I'm losing, which means I either don't see the benefit or it's too little too late. They made this mistake with one of the Cities of Sigmar subfactions in AoS too.

I think there would be limitations. I would expect Dark Angels to have access to most of the rules, because they are mixing 3 different play style in one. And they are the first. As for others I expect more serious limitations. But who knows what will happen.

@XealotCoils

9 ай бұрын

That just kinda forces everyone to play DA.

I'm actually glad I can use the codex detachments, as the space wolves one is quite frankly a nice thought, but very poorly excecuted. Aside from that, I like the flexibility of the core detachments, so I can do a few different playstyles if I want. It's also quite good if you want to give rules to your successor chapter of the divergent chapters (which I gues was the intention).

there is more fun to be had than not with these change and I think with more time everyone will see it that way.

My crank theory: divergent chapters will lose Oath of Moment for some other rule when their codexes come out. That way they won't be strictly better than regular marines, just different.

@DemonLordRaiden

8 ай бұрын

This is my hope. I think the idea of divergent chapters using normal detachment rules is cool, but the army rules should make them different.

My expectation is that once the Codexes for the units come out, they will forbid the divergent chapters from using some or all of the generalist options, which effectively all represent different codex compliant chapters. Paint your army however you want, but, if you want to use Thunderwolf cavalry then you are Space Wolves and can only use these detachments. Conversely, if you don't include ANY chapter specific units, then you can choose any detachment you want from any Marine Codex. The space wolves can still USE the normal detachments, but, they can't use them if they also want to use their special units.

@XealotCoils

9 ай бұрын

How would you limit DA? Who, everything considered, really don't have any limits.

The only way I could really see codex compliant chapters getting something more for them is if they got more units. Kinda sucks that my chapter has some unique units but the only way I can distinguish my chapter is only Iron Father Ferrios

I can definitely say that Deathwatch have the best battleline of any of the space marine chapters. Veterans slap hard.

@cruelmole

9 ай бұрын

*Laughs in crusader squads*

@darklink9922

9 ай бұрын

​@cruelmole agreed but that's Melee only Veterans can do both

I’m expecting GW to confirm that divergent chapters can use this codex but can not use data cards that are not included in this supplement as part of the detachments, at some point. So yes blood angels can use this but couldn’t field Dante or death company in these detachments. It’s not been said yet but I’d bet my pile of shame it’s coming.

@Brother_Rony

9 ай бұрын

They already confirmed that you can use it the same way with all units. Well, it was related to dark angels but there is no reason it couldnt work for all other chapters

@reaver102102

9 ай бұрын

This is the simplest and most effective solution.

As a fluffy Space Wolf player who hadn't used Gladius, and a Space Marine player- I'm happy I don't have to wait for the later end of 2024 to potentially have some new things to play with. I still hope that GW fixes the SW detachment, so that two of our stratagems are usable again, but also I just find all of what I've seen of the new marine codex to just be excessively middling. My more genuine hope for the game, is we see some more adjustments and minor tweaks to problematic detatchments rather than to the units within those detachments being punished.

Yes, but that is fine as long as you allow people to play any slightly blinged up Terminators with shield and hereticbonker of choice as Deathwing Knights.

It does kind of suck as a white scars player because it feels like no matter how well I play. It's an uphill battle against divergent chapters because they can do pretty much everything I can do and more. I'd like to see them only be able to use the codex detachments if they're army is entirely comprised of units in the codex.

i think DA will get 6 detachments... some unique, then they will get the gladius and maybe one other as a "standard way to play marines"

The Black Templar one is strong but even if it changed i wouldnt consider changing it, much more fun to play with as many of the umique Templar units than my Fists

Best solution, When they get their codex, They end up with like 3 unique to them, gladius, and then maybe 2-3 others from the core space marine book that fit with their playstyle, but thats it. DA might get like Core DA, Deathwing, Ravenwing, Gladius, Stormlance, Anvil siege force. Black templars honestly should probably get 6 unique ones based around a different vow and nothing from the codex just for lore sake. That would probably work, But GW doesn't have the balls.

Tbh, I wouldn't mind if you play White Scars or amy chapter, and use Azrael or the Lion. Rules wise, it's Dark Angels. Lore Wise, Dark Angels and White Scars are allied together to defeat the enemies of mankind or whatever.

Discussions like this are why i don't care at all about the meta of 40K and what's currently the "best picks". Literally just days ago we were all bemoaning that all the divergent chapters were so useless and playing them was inherently worse (except for Black Templars and possibly Deathwatch), now the moment GW says "they can use all the stuff in the Space Marines codex" suddenly they're inherently superior to any other chapter and it's an objective improvement to play them over anything else and they need to be nerfed. This isn't even considering that GW loves to tell us we can play one way and then months later insist that we need to start learning to play a different way, and they'll likely just release the codex for each divergent chapter and say "lmao they can't use the Space Marine codex anymore, get rekt scrub thanks for the money!". Like, tenth edition just started, only two armies have codexes, we really need to stop acting like every single problem is bringing the house down and needs to be solved now with an emergency dataslate when GW seems perfectly content to slowly spruce the game up using individual codex releases, WHICH I HATE, but it's how GW insists on doing things, so that's what we gotta fuckin' deal with.

I wonder if giving compliant chapters a better oath rule would be a good way to balance the chapters. Maybe… off the top of my head… re-roll hits AND wounds!?!

I hope that when each divergent chapters get their codex they lose the ability to use the normal detachments but gain 6 new ones of their own... otherwise why do they need their own books?

More characters in the compliant chapters feels like low hanging fruit. Especially if they specifically buff the profiles for their chapters. A new Vulkan He’Stan and two or more characters feels like a good fix. Same for other chapters.

It’s fine because my Thousand Sons will be able to use all the Chaos Space Marines detachments and units right……………right?

@DemonLordRaiden

8 ай бұрын

I fuckin' wish. Imagine what we could do with a single (1) unit of Havocs to help us with vehicles or a single (1) melee unit that's not Tzaangors to hold mid-board.

I really miss the Raven Guard supplement. The flavor of the chapter was captured perfectly. My only regret was that it was released at a time when marines were overturned, so I only got one game in because it got a reputation for being a BS unfun army to play against.

I don't think its that much of an issue as long as each detachment is within that 45-55% win rate. However I think one advantage they could do is add maybe an advantage to running the codex complaint ones. For example, if you are running white scars with the storm lance maybe it gives them a +1 to damage on the charge. Make it worth running those lesser used detachments.

This is a good thing. Let me explain. 1. The main chapters are the heart of the story, the founding chapters. If they could only get the same vanilla as any made up generic chapter, the main chapters would see less play. Thus named heroes and special abilities and unique units are good for them. Personally I would reduce the amount of special units for those chapters. It’s more about their characters and special abilities/curse.

But couldn’t you argue the characters have better synergy with their own style detachments. I’d argue if I wanted to play the Salamanders style one Vulkan fits the synergy better than Blood Angels. Playing Blood Angels appears difficult this edition because of increased toughness and shooting being better than melee and that before you even get a charge off.

Yes TWC spam are def gonna be a problem in the advance and charge detachment hehehe

Suspect once the divergent chapters released, if you included a specific character from the divergent chapters your whole army would get a keyword that then meant you had to use that chapter. So if you included Sanguinary guard your whole army becomes Blood Angels and you have to use their rules

I want divergent chapters out of the marine codex completely and in their own books. No overlap in detachment use at all, different army rules, so on and so forth. This half-in half-out approach is very awkward.

@maciekwilkosz6377

9 ай бұрын

Especialy when you factor in that they took completely different approach to Chaos Legions...

@TideUltra13-ex3xl

9 ай бұрын

This, BA/DA/SW should be their own codex with unique rules and datasheets. And release emperor's children codex, GW you cowards!

@Infinity_Coda

9 ай бұрын

@@TideUltra13-ex3xl Exactly this. And yeah, not releasing Emperor's Children is just leaving money on the table until they do

@alexairey5629

9 ай бұрын

​@@Infinity_CodaThe fact the upcoming Fulgrim model is only going to be for 30K is also leaving the cash on the table

I dont think this is necessarily a new thing, but with more free form building anyone can just splash in some deathwing terminators or space wolves thunder wolves

With the possible exception of Ultramarines I'd say YES.

My guess is that they only allow them to use the normal Marine detatchments till their own Codex drops.

My initial thought was that the divergent chapters codexes would each have less detachment than the main codex, and that each would be forbidden to access some of the main codex detachments. Will see what happens in the end.

me: Thousand Sons are Marines Plus (but in their own special way) X3

Idk out of the marine factions i believe space wolves and imperial fist are the only ones without a gt win in 10th every other faction has at least one ultramarines and dark angel's the exception with 2

The different detachments match up well with the vlka fenrykas great company's

i think it could be more balanced if they changed the unit restrictions from detachment rules to army rules, so that the divergent chapters are restricted in what they can take no matter which detachment they use.

What they should do is make the compliant chapters units cost less. Then there is a reason to take them over the divergent and they still can access them

They could have just improved 9th instead they reset everything for the worse

GW makes a lot of major 40k rules related decisions that make you think they don't understand the concepts of game balance. Otoh I think that true game balance doesn't always favor model sales and overall product profitability. So...I think when the two ideas clash they defer to money every time. It's an intrinsic weakness of a company that sells A) expensive doodads, and B) less expensive Rule Sets. A will trump B every time 😑

I mean, is the problem that the divergent chapters have extra things that they can use; or is the problem that the main chapters don’t have anything unique to them at all other than a few characters? It wouldn’t be a problem if Scars had their own special bikes, Salamanders had a special flamer/melta squad, Raven Guard had special scouts, etc.

@XealotCoils

9 ай бұрын

But then they'd be considered divergent. Basically the difference between divergent and compliant is "Do you have your own stuff?"

@andrewcrawford8306

9 ай бұрын

@@XealotCoils not true. Even Ultramarines have their Tyrannic War Veterans and Victix Honor Guard. In fact, the Ultras, despite being the sons of the author of the codex, are rhe ONLY ones of the main chapters to have unique units.

@XealotCoils

9 ай бұрын

@@andrewcrawford8306 Ultramarine privileges. They wrote the book so they get to bend the rules.

@DemonLordRaiden

8 ай бұрын

@@XealotCoils Nah, more like GW poster child privileges. The other chapters could (and do, in lore) have unique stuff, but GW hasn't done anything with it for tabletop.

As long as theyre relatively close it doesnt really bother me. If BT are 55 and my Fists are 35, thats a problem. But 50 and 48? Not concerned

10e’s over-simplification of SM chapters into detachments has given divergent chapters a great advantage of the codex-compliant chapters. In 10e, there’s no downside to using a divergent chapter, whereas in 9e, certain chapters’ special rules and super-doctrines were undisputedly better (or worse) than others. I appreciate the versatility of the 10e SM detachments, but the distinctiveness of each SM chapter has been lost. Considering that most of the 10e SM Codex has been leaked already, I know it’s unlikely, but I wish that SM Chapters had at least one unique rule or super-doctrine that distinguished it from the other chapters. That would be sufficient for making SM chapter choice meaningful in 10e.