I mention losing and recovering the audio at the start of the video, but after I recorded that section I lost a lot of video as well. With a good 20% of the footage being lost and needing to be completely rerecorded, re-edited, etc... And on my VTMB I posted a comment discussing reasons it would be delayed before anything got corrupted. So many roadblocks to finishing this video, but it is finally done. I hope you enjoy!

@akale2620

Жыл бұрын

Disliked for the terrible barely audible audio. You may have apologized but it means nothing when it's not audible at all. I actually like what you're trying to say. It's a different perspective altogether but I couldn't get through 5 minutes even. Just not audible. It's just 20 minutes, just record the fucking thing.

@Palpad100

Жыл бұрын

I want to point something out to you that you've got wrong about Anders. Even in Dragon Age 2 he does talk about his relationships with women, he has banter with Isabela where they both remember each other from a time they were in a brothel together. It's also implied tha the also slept with Isabela.

I remember Angry Joe's reaction to Anders. It was actually respectful, and pretty much said a lot of the same things you did. Like many rational people, he has nothing against gay people, but doesn't want his character to be forced into a situation where you have to either accept advances, or shut them down hard. A simple 'I'm flattered, but I'm not interested' would have been just fine. Zevran was a far better written character in that regard. He's clearly bisexual, telling you of his experiences with both and women, he hits on you, but you can turn him down gently, and he shrugs 'whatever' and moves on. Your character doesn't come off as a homophobic asshole, and he doesn't come off as someone who's miffed just because you said no. It's the best of both worlds.

@christopherjones5700

Жыл бұрын

zevran i always thought was done well. Dragon age and bioware are so hit and miss with the romances tbh.

@TFfan665

Жыл бұрын

There's also the fact that Anders was written to be a bit of an obsessive, antisocial, stuck in his own head creep! Literally saying, "I would drown in his own blood" for Hawke. In that context, he would be extremely uncomfortable to have advances placed on you. It works well to get across the fact that Anders is bisexual and gets across a character trait really well, even if it feels icky to some players.

@Temudhun

Жыл бұрын

I sort of had the same problem with Kaidan in the first Mass Effect, playing a female character. I don't know if the dialogue options were poorly translated or poorly written in the first place, or if my stupid ass just didn't interpret those correctly, but I ended up in a relationship with him just because when he made advences on me the dialogue option that felt to me like the only way to refuse without being too harsh on him was actually a "Yes" option. I was then stuck in a relationship with him even though I wanted to play a lesbian character, and I only got rid of him when he threw a fit because I was also dating Liara and he asked me to chose.

@TFfan665

Жыл бұрын

@@Temudhun ME1's romances are so strange.😩 You have to show interest into both of them to start it, I never liked that. It's not the one who you connect with most, it's you lead one person along to romance the other one. It's literally a forced love triangle!!

@thegamingdeku

Жыл бұрын

@@TFfan665 you actually don't have to be in a love triangle i've done plenty of playthroughs where i romance one of them and i don't get the confrontation

I think one of the biggest separators between a character being bi and being playersexual is quite simple, but maybe a bit unfair. The biggest difference to me is whether or not other characters in the game can romance the player of either sex/gender, or if they are interested in only one sex/gender. Like, Kaidan does feel a little more legitimate as a bi character in game because Sam. Miranda and Tali exist. Even if he was made bi later in development.

@yurionagony7782

4 ай бұрын

I'm pretty sure he was bi in the first mass effect to but they cut it, if u use a same sex romance mod normally the character u are romancing will call u the wrong gender and some lines of dialog are not voiced but not for kaiden, all his voice lines are pretty much perfect on it

The only Dragon Age I've played is Inquisition so the poor handling of Anders is really wild especially since Bioware seemed to learn their lesson as there are characters in Inquisition that if you flirt with them but aren't their type will say something along the lines of "Hey I'm flattered but I'm not attracted to men/women." Found that out the hard way playing as female Inquisitor and trying to romance Cassandra but the gay characters Sera and Dorian will also let the player down easy if they attempt to flirt with them in a hetero way. Iron Bull and Josephine I believe are also bisexual and romanceable by anyone

As a straight guy when I was playing cyberpunk judy was my type so knowing there were romance options I believed she was a straight/bi option and was disappointed that I couldn’t but It didn’t phase me to the point where I couldn’t enjoy the game the bugs and crashes took care of that

@Temudhun

Жыл бұрын

I know a guy who restarted the game over as a woman despite never playing one when he learnt Judy was a lesbian.

@tonymcneill7779

11 ай бұрын

At one point Judy was bi but it was changed in the final product. They tried to say otherwise but pesky data miners revealed lines that were clearly Judy and male V romance conversations. lmao

I liked Iron Bull as a clearly bisexual character in Dragon Age: Inquisition. Just very clearly DTF whoever, but not in a creepy way. :)

@alexmoore3732

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe I just missed some banter that established that, but he certainly didn't seem bi to me. He continually talks about having sex with women, but I never even heard any hint of him having seen with or even being attracted to any men

@starberry_lemonade

2 жыл бұрын

@@alexmoore3732 The only thing I can really think of on the top of my head is his romance with Dorain. If you keep them in the party long enough, they will aggressively flirt their way into a relationship.

@BruceWayne-fj9bm

2 жыл бұрын

It was fairly creepy.

@BruceWayne-fj9bm

2 жыл бұрын

@@alexmoore3732 If the player character doesn’t romance him or the gay mage (I never used him because his attitude came off as pretentious, nothing to do with homophobia before I’m accused, and therefore don’t remember his name) and Iron Bull and the gay mage are used a lot in the party then Iron Bull and the gay mage form a relationship.

@Nehelenia3000

2 жыл бұрын

He was insanely creepy. His “banter” with dorian was beyond disturbing.

This is a really difficult topic A common problem for members of the LGBT community (to which I will refer to as "rainbow" community because it sounds nicer) is other people who try to tell you which sexuality you have. It doesn't matter if you're gay, asexual, bi or whatever, you'll always find people telling you that you're not what you say you are, that you don't behave "right" for your mentioned type or that it's just a phase. The thing is: no matter how you behave, what you do or what you wear, your sexuality, your interest into another person is something that can only be determined by yourself. You don't need to behave a certain way to validate your membership for the "gay club". But that is something a lot of members of the rainbow community do regarding games, movies, series etc. do. Whenever someone says "she is clearly written as a lesbian, why does she date men?" then that person is judging the sexuality of a character. that feels wrong to me. A persons interest into another person is all the validation they need. You mentioned how lesbians have the problem of other people trying to "turn" them into something they are not. But a similar problem have bi-woman who don't seem queer enough and are rejected by parts of the rainbow community for that reason. Then there is another issue. Do you want a realistic scenario or a powerful player experience? Power fantasies have the goal to make a player feel capable, able to achieve what you want to do, while realistic scenarios try to throw you and your believes into a new environment and let you deal with it. A sexual power fantasy (ok that sounds dirty) with all NPC's romancable can give the player the option to find out what type(s) of person they like and give you the hope that someone like that is out there. While a realistic representation is a way of telling stories of these people, to give new insides into the real situation out there, the problems, the struggles that exist and how you deal with them. It seems to me like the sexual power fantasy is universally disregarded by the rainbow community because it reminds them of the many times their sexuality was invalitated by someone else. But I feel like that the banishmend of playersexual characters and these power fantasies ultimately costs us a way to express ourselves and (even worse) even encourages the development of stereotypes since popluar tendencies in the rainbow community will be the only thing that is allowed to be represented. I agree that bisexuality is underrepresented, but we have to keep in mind: We are freaking hard to represent *finger guns*

@pikmonwolf

2 жыл бұрын

As somebody whose been told by others that I'm 'pansexual not bisexual' I definitely get that. It's less about a character being stereotypically lesbian than dating a man, and rather that any attraction they show of their own initiative is towards the same sex and they only show interest in the opposite sex when persued by a player of said sex. But it's definitely a complex topic 👉

@EmeralBookwise

2 жыл бұрын

To me at least while I can very much see the problematic implications, and especially how those might feel insulating to people who have had their sexual questioned by others, however... sexuality is also a spectrum. It's a spectrum wherein people can have very strong preferences towards one end or the other, but still a spectrum all the same, a spectrum that can often require experimentation to figure out just where on that spectrum we sit. I say this from personal experience, because I used to consider myself entirely straight, that is until I met a "special" someone who made me reconsider myself. Even after that, I'm not sure if I'd consider myself properly bi/pan/whatever, because while I'm now open to the idea of pursuing a same sex relationship, I've never met anyone else that made me want to. Or who knows, maybe I was just a playersexual NPC in that special someone's game :-)

@gwendolynsnyder463

2 жыл бұрын

nobody believes me that I'm Aroace. I'm always being told "Oh, you'll find someone special" or "oh, don't just lock yourself out of dating!"

@cooldud7071

Жыл бұрын

I like rainbows and don't care much for gays. Don't go around calling yourselves the rainbow community.

@varnix1006

Жыл бұрын

Tl;dr: people express themselves differently and sexuality is not the same as personality such as kind, brave, etc.

I'm a bisexual guy and I think you made a well done and thought-provoking video, but one thing I disagree with was the Dragon Age part specifically Leliana. I never thought she was lesbian, when I flirted with her with my male character and she mentioned past relationships with women I just always assumed she was bi/pan, though I admit I never knew that the writers originally intended her to be lesbian. (I may be biased though because Leliana is my favourite character lol) Still a great video tho.

@pikmonwolf

2 жыл бұрын

She is a great character. And I don't think a relationship between her and a male warden feels wrong per se, but rather that if you don't romance her as one she never shows any attraction to men.

@singularm5923

2 жыл бұрын

@@pikmonwolf I might remember this wrong, but she shows at least some attraction to Zevran. Still, she obviously has a preference for women. Oh, she also compliments Alistair to the Warden who romanced him and mentions that she`d go for him herself if not for her. Actually, a lot of Leliana's interest in men comes out during girl talks with the Warden now that I'm remembering it

@fenrisvermundr2516

2 жыл бұрын

@@singularm5923 And while not canon. In the Darkspawn Chronicles she and Alistair are married. Zevran though is handled poorly. Like the vibes I get is that he's not that interested in men and only learned to like it out of necessity. Which is ironic cause Gaider wrote him for gay men yet he is the opposite of what most gay men want.

My problem with playersexual characters is that their sexuality doesn't seem to exist outside of the player, be they hetero or bi or homosexual. I actually like to see NPCs get together. It is a good way to show parts of themselves that don't involve the player character.

@JyujinPlus

Жыл бұрын

While it definitely is nice, I can see why it doesn’t generally happen. It’d be a pretty upsetting to players if Character A is presented as a bachelor who is open to romance if you find the right things to say, but if you haven’t romanced them that randomly changed halfway through the game. The only way I could see NPCs engaging with each other not restricting player agency is if A.) it’s done like in Fire Emblem where the player has ultimate control over everyone’s romance or b.) NPCs only romance each other after the player romances someone

@AxiEisa

3 ай бұрын

A videogame should be more game than video

@lessonslearned2569

3 ай бұрын

@@AxiEisa A videogame should always be a game.

Leliana talks about seducing men during her time as a bard in a way that takes for granted that not every man has a "right woman" and if she was "actually a lesbian" she would maybe not talk like everyone experiences opposite sex attraction or maybe her "I'm done with that life" talk would include expressing discomfort at being made to flirt with men but it's one of the few parts she not only never says anything bad about but explicitly defends if the warden criticises it Although I've only romanced her as a female warden(so none of this is coming from the perspective of a game where my male character is getting some skewed version of her as a love interest or whatever)I've also had gay male wardens struggle to communicate that she couldn't find a "right woman" type to seduce them(she takes it as doubting her bard skills) and the way she gossips with the wardens I romanced Alistair and Zevran with certainly doesn't sound like a lesbian, heck if a female warden romances Zevran Alistair can ask her what women see in a guy like him and again she has a list of things (tho I'd say the cherry on top of her not being written as a lesbian with an exception is the fact that the darkspawn chronicles dlc implies that her and Alistair were together in that timeline) David Gaider also wanted to make Alistair and Morrigan bi but EA wouldn't let it happen and if you've seen Zevran's concept art you should know it's not fair to bank too hard on early ideas(hell the Archdemon wasn't even supposed to be a dragon but things change) And as for Anders, tell me you haven't heard his obvious flirting with Nathaniel in the awakening banter(he also has a da2 banter with Isabella that brings up his history with women regardless of hawke's gender)but here's the thing, Anders after merging with justice basically puts romance on the shelf until meeting hawke(any hawke regardless of whether the feelings are returned or not) and Karl was Anders ex regardless of hawke's gender but it's brought up to test the waters with male hawke and that just doesn't work the same for a female character and in fact would likely have the opposite effect that and a lot of straight women unfortunately treat bi men like they're secretly gay so it's not even that unrealistic that he didn't bring it up besides he's already lied about his cat at this point and omitting that information so that a woman he likes doesn't think he's gay is far from the worst lie he tells hawke But yeah as much as I'll defend that he isn't actual playersexual(they did go into DA2 with the idea of all four of those characters being bi it's just a case of execution varying)I would like to point out that as far as I can tell his writer for that game hated him(I mean she intentionally made it so he was less sympathetic if you agreed with him and you'd have to rival him for the narrative to properly explore the tragedy of his story) so even though I believe there's enough evidence to say he's canonically bi(I mean it was confirmed)I wouldn't dismiss the idea that it was written like that for the wrong reasons Sorry if any of this sounds hostile I'm just very attached to a lot of the dragon age love interests(the bisexual ones impartial)as they were personally important to me even getting to the point of being comfortable enough to ask the question in the first place

@TheLadyLiddell

2 жыл бұрын

It honestly breaks my heart that Anders' character was shafted because his writer hated him. I used to despise DA2 Anders, but after learning that I'm not as harsh towards him. He got the short end of the stick in many ways.

@briancatoni7000

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheLadyLiddell my initial experience of his character was being spoiled for the whole of DA2 before I even started origins I got in between 2 and inquisition without being aware that there was an up coming game and in a strange twist of things I basically ended up watching a whole run of 2 which looking back was unusual for me but it ment that by the time I actually came across him in awakening I had the context for where he was going so it didn't feel that abrupt also my first warden died and I was rping a cold hearted veteran which resulted in Anders saying a few things here and there that made me go "oh so you've always been kinda like that deep down" I mean even with the benefit of how I approached his character making me tend to the forgiving side I still wish he was written by someone who cared for him or hell maybe at least someone who didn't have a habit of writing mental illness as if it was a moral failing; she also wrote Brosca's mother and was explicitly going for her being "a bipolar drunk" (I feel like alcoholism would've been explanation enough her behaviour)and it's just strange that both these characters are depicted as being worse people for it It's funny because I never disliked him out right but man I I'd rather he never shows up again and he can live in headcanon land were bioware can't hurt him anymore

@fenrisvermundr2516

2 жыл бұрын

One correction. Gaider was against making Alistair a gay option because he felt unconfortable with it. One of the devs even called him out on it. While Morrigan was kind of just them toying with the idea.

I read Anders as bi. I only ever played as fems, so I had him flirting with me both in Awekening and DA2, but his boyfriend story was clear for me, even if he didn't call him such. But. I had no idea he's explicitly called his boyfriend if you play male Hawke! That's really disgusting they ommited that for a female player and it absolutely comes from bad faith, toxic masculinity and bi men erasure and now I'm fucking mad.

@BruceWayne-fj9bm

2 жыл бұрын

Oh my gosh, calm down and go back to Twitter lol.

@abcdefghij337

Жыл бұрын

Since Awakening would’ve come out before DA2, and Anders makes no references to being attracted to men in Awakening, it makes more sense to conclude that his new sexuality was tacked on for DA2. Honestly, the way he interacted with Karl had me concluding that their relationship was trauma-based. Anders was clearly shaken by being taken to the Circle, refusing to speak and then adopting the name people just gave him, and it seemed like Karl was the first person to show him that it was okay for him to have magic and that it didn’t make him cursed or dangerous or unwanted. I’m sure Freud would’ve had a few things to say on the matter.

@aeonarin

Жыл бұрын

@@abcdefghij337 Nah, Freud was only fond of attributing everything to penis envy and wanting to fuck your mother, he has nothing on Anders. Anyway. Yeah, probably they did retcon his sexuality for DA2, but it does not make it invalid. A bi person has no obligation to give you heads up that they're bi, so the fact he doesn't mention being attracted to men in Awakening doesn't matter at all. Being bi also doesn't mean being attracted to everyone, so the fact that he flirts with femWardens and not mWardens in Awakening also doesn't matter. Anders and Karl perhaps did bond over trauma, but that does not mean the relation wasn't romantic? It is definitely implied in a femHawke play, and it is outright stated in mHawke play. Which is the point. They shied away from making it explicit, opting instead for eating the LGBT pie and still having one to present to homophobes. As with every companion character in DA2 they made him playersexual, so that a player doesn't encounter gays if they don't actively seek them out. That's not representation, that's breadcrumbs. And in case of Anders it's worse, because his backstory does actually make him bi in contrast to others (Merrill and Fenris, whose biness is a game mechanic; Isabela actually flirts with everyone and not just PC) but the devs make a choice to hide it from fHawke players just in case they don't want to know, because straight women commonly discriminate against bi men (a social phenomena rooted all the way back in AIDS panic when media blamed bisexual men for spreading a gay disease to the straight population).

Me: … Finger guns are bi? *calculus and geometry intensifies*

@tavrosnitram1529

2 жыл бұрын

it seems to also be a pansexual thing as someone whos pan and likes to see the memes

As a reader of AO3 it's kind of funny to hear Edelgard described as a "Clearly straight character who only shows same sex attraction towards the player character" and be reminded that, as far as the game goes, it's a fair description. Yes AO3 definitely tends away from hetro but even then there are fewer fics than I'd expect with Edelgard/Dimitri, Edelgard/Claude, Edelgard/M!Byleth or Edelgard/any other Male while I've seen her shipped with more different female characters than anyone in the game else I think. Also re Leliana: I always saw her as bisexual but preferring women (particularly after what presumably happened to her during her pre-game arc). Of course I say that as a straight man. I think an interesting case study here is Kaiden and Ashley in that they because romanceable by a same sex Shepard in ME3 only.

I really don’t think Lelianna was meant to be gay. She can be bi with a female ex. On another note I personally prefer the everyone is bi route as long as the characters don’t end up like anders. More options for the player. And at the end of the day in a game designed to give you free reign romancing anyone seems like an okay idea.

Leliana is a lesbian? Tbh i don't remember her having any interest in other female characters other then the player. I assumed she is a hopless romantic at heart which would why it would make sense for her to fall for the player no matter what gender they are.

@pikmonwolf

3 жыл бұрын

Gaider actually confirmed she was originally going to be a lesbian and that Zevran was originally going to be gay. Zevran was given a very clear attraction to women but Leliana was not really given any attraction to men. I forget if it is ever explicitely stated that marjolaine and her were a couple, but she talks a LOT about how much she loved her and how much she meant to her. Girl definitely had it bad lol.

@TheKeven28900

3 жыл бұрын

@@pikmonwolf I always interpruted Leliana's relationship with marjolyne as that of a parent and child (since well marjolyne did practically raise her and to quote Leliana herself she has more memories of marjolyne then her own mother) Sure Leliana cared for majolyne but idk it would be kinda weird to assume her feelings as romantic rather then platonic. It would be like interputing alistar's gratitude for the arl of redcliff as romantic interest rather then genuine gratitude. Maybe I'm just dense with this sort of stuff ,but it would be nice to have other examples of Leliena being a lesbian (okay that last bit sounded wierd lol).

@pikmonwolf

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheKeven28900 I can see why you'd interperet it that way. But IMO her love of Marjolaine and her love of Justinia are presented very differently. Her love of Justinia is clearly motherly, whereas her love of Marjolaine is much more passionate. Also as I said Gaider did confirm that she was originally Lesbian then just made bi for convinience sake. But you do have me reanalyzing her relationship with marjolaine which always seemed clearly romantic to me.

@quaremoritor

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheKeven28900 she said it’s unfair she has more memories of the noble lady cecilie who raised her than her actual mother, not marjolaine. she met marjolaine when she was around sixteen

@dmitriygryaznov9210

2 жыл бұрын

@@pikmonwolf What you said about Leliana's development history makes me wonder whether Virmire Survivor was planned as a bisexual option as early as in Mass Effect 1, only to be made straight out of PR concerns. Romance lines told by Shepard to same-sex VS are partially present in the game (supposedly to overcome some programming issues), and Kaidan Alenko has been having such strong bi vibes since his first on-screen moments that making him bi in ME3 had a "coming out of closet" feel.

I agree with you on most points. Being Bi myself i can see why it would be frustrating to have an explicitly straight/gay character flip flop sexuality depending on the player, However, there are known cases of that happening in real life. Example No.1 : Me. I was so Vehemently Gay in my late teens and early 20's. Not a single woman could turn me on/attract me in any sort of way. But through Pure circumstance i just happened to find a Woman who I Fell head over heels for. We got together and it was Amazing. Unfortunately it ended due to sudden distance and life circumstances. But I'd still go back with her if i had the chance. What I'm trying to say is that. Even though we might feel 100% certain of our sexuality, its not set in stone. We might just find that one person (or not , that's fine and doesn't mean we have to go looking for them or that everyone even has one) and be completely blindsided by sudden attraction. So when i encounter that in games i actually don't mind. because i see myself in them. You can still count on it being a sort of representation, just not the widely accepted form of "gay is gay and str8 is str8 and that's it". Sexuality should not be the primary defining characteristic of a character. It should be as mundane as what sort of coffee they like or shoes. By elevating it to a pedestal it makes it either a token or a parody. I hope you get what i mean :) .

I found Zevran from Dragon Age: Origins to be an example of the second type. The way he talks about men indicates that he's just open to sex with them, not truly attracted. It's fine for bi people to have a preference, obviously, but Zevran never actually indicates attraction to men beyond being willing to have sex.

@fenrisvermundr2516

2 жыл бұрын

I definitely get that impression. And it's weird cause Gaider says he wrote Zevran with gay men in mind.

This is what I've been saying about Leliana! It was confirmed in an interview that she was originally written as a lesbian and when that interview was published I was very smug about it haha because I'd felt that way since I first played DA:O. Thanks for this video! Not to plug, but we also have a video on our channel discussing playersexuality and bisexuality as a game mechanic as well, and we delve into Leliana a bit more, among other characters, a bit more. Definitely interested to hear your thoughts and those of folks who are interested in this topic. kzread.info/dash/bejne/Yo1rz62wYsa5j9o.html

as a bisexual man sexual identity was a very confusing thing for me to discover and explore i thought i was as straight as a plank of wood for the longest time until i got into highschool and all of a sudden i just **magically** gravitated to my lgbt+ friends and dated a nonbinary person for a few months. then i realized "well shit, this is confusing isnt it" ive never really seen bi characters and well being bi isnt a huge part of my identity, but when i saw yuri, a long haired effeminate trickster twink, i got really excited because it's literally me. and i didnt know yuri existed until i watched this video because well it never occured to me that three houses had DLC, which i should probably finish

on 3H specifically, I find it fairly annoying that even in the one gay NPC romance that is 99% canon, they still refuse to actually say it. "It is said that she became the person whom Petra loved the most" is pretty damn concrete, but I kind of wish they'd just come out and say "Yeah they got married", feels like dodging around the issue. As far as male representation is concerned, I actually like the *idea* of Linhardt being a bi option, but the fact that he was the only MLM option at release shows pretty clearly that it was done with little to no care, and just slapped on because they didn't feel they could get away with completely shafting the gay homies. Also yes Claude is absolutely bi but they just decided "nuh-uh" for whatever goddamn reason, and as a straight man he is the epitome of "I don't want a piece of that but I totally get why someone would want a piece of that". Edelgard feels honestly more By(leth)sexual than anything, though ironically she gets lowkey erased into being a lesbian by some folks because... if I'm being honest I think it's just cause she's a revolutionary, and it's a little annoying but hardly the world's most pressing issue. Apologies for the somewhat rambly comment, aside from the audio issues which I cant really fault you for, this was a very well put together video.

Gosh, the projection.

As straight black man I play these games to immerse myself and play as close as I can as myself through the player character. That's why I love character creation in a game. Though it doesn't always work out perfectly due to lack of hair options that fit and sometimes no skin tone options. I personally advocate for anything that gives players the option to romance whoever they want to. Not to lessens any specific queer representation but to let everyone get the maximum enjoyment out of their time with the game. They may love, hate, or feel nothing at all for some characters. And it could be pretty disappointing to play a game blind, feel only platonic towards every option except one, and that one is someone you can't pursue. This is why I believe some go as far as to mod those options in. For instance Yosuke from Persona 4 or Judy from Cyberpunk 2077. Not from a standpoint of hate for exclusively straight or gay characters but a love for the characters themselves. I hope that makes sense sometimes I have difficulty putting thoughts into words. On a side note somewhat related related do you think we'll ever get more games with polygamy?

@lucianjaeger4893

Жыл бұрын

100% agree i generally prefer the either option because its really demoralising sifting through bland characters to find one you click with just to find out nope this person is straight or this person is gay and very much can ruin your experience or your interest in said playthrough. On another note as someone in a poly relationship (3 people fully committed to each other) my partners, both female are bi I'm straight. I can honestly say 3 way relationships take a different level of maturity a lot of people just don't have, as much as I'd like to see some successful poly relationships represented, proper relationships that is. The mount of hate and bile we've had to endure especially me as the male from not only bible thumpers but the "Inclusion" communities too. It ain't happening.

@Magnet_Chaos

11 ай бұрын

RIP Gay Mass Effect players that like Garrus. And RIP Lesbians that like Tali.

Uhh lot of yes and no here. The dragon age dialogue in general between the warden and companions or hawke and companions is very much focused on the player and that companion. But a lot of other dialogue happens between characters in random moments. Leliana speaks to the female player character about 'boys being trained for bed' in a joking manner if the player romances alistair, and she also makes some sexual jokes with zevran. Anders and Isabella have some flirtatious banter, and its also stated that Anders just isnt interested in romance in general now that justice is involved- which seemed to happen after his relationship with Karl.

Glad I found your channel. Such a good video. One of my all time favorite player sexual romances that simultaneously drives me crazy is Kaidan Alenko in ME3. As male Shepard it’s honestly really touching and sweet that Kaidan and Shepard find love as they had been avoiding relationship the whole trilogy putting the mission first (if you didn’t romance anyone and wanted a truly gay shep). However it’s not lost on me that every time kaidan talks about attraction it’s only directed and fem coded characters. Even if you are in relationship it happens. I hope after the mess that was andromeda’s queer male options that in the next mass effect we have decent options again.

Type 2 and 3 are literally the same thing, they are either both problematic to the same extent or not.

Shame about the audio cuz this video is super well thought out.

@pikmonwolf

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks friend! The good news is that I learned a bit about audio balancing and such from the issue so I the audio quality of my next video improved!

Clicked on this link to gripe about Anders' portrayal in Dragon Age II so I'm glad to see that he was your textbook example of "What NOT to do". Anders portrayal in DAII was awful, but I also have to disagree with you on your assertion that the problems arise later in the game. They arise right from the start. If memory serves, he also makes a pass at you when you first meet him if you are male and you gain rivalry points if you tell him you're not interested. So the dialogue options you discuss in detail are actually the 2nd time Anders will get upset with you for turning him down. Also, they retconned his sexuality from the original game's expansion. Not only did I feel like I was being punished not just for being straight, but also for actually playing the previous game. In DAII, having the base game romance options be player-sexual made the romances feel less fleshed out and more slapped together. On two separate occasions in Mass Effect I tried to romance a crew member on the Normandy only to find out they were lesbians. I'd rather have established a platonic relationship with a well-written character than have every romanceable character's sexuality change to align with my gender.

The newest Baldur's Gate 3, there's something disingenuous about giving me so much tools for gender customization... Only for the world to not recognize it beyond the most barebone pronoun change. They will have the characters be thieves, con artists, murderers, sadists, hedonists, racists, but they draw the line at having any of them say "I wouldn't have sex with people of a certain gender"

I agree pretty much entirely barring a small detail. As a bisexual man with a strong romantic preference for other men, I do not believe that it is fair. If option 3 is considered bad and harmful, then so should option 2. If "a gay man can be forced straight" is offensive, then "a straight man can be forced gay" is equally as offensive. This is a staunch belief I have and I can not be convinced otherwise. I am ambivalent about the details. Either they're both bad or both fine. I do not care which you choose but I believe both are inherently the same. Two sides of the same coin

@essurio

8 ай бұрын

Ayy, nice. Finally someone who had the same idea, I had to scroll a lot to find this.

Having only ever played Dragon Age II as a female character, I always find it ironic when men complain about Anders's advances as pushing his gayness. The dialogue with him is the exact same with a female character, and it does feel very uncomfortable, but it's also realistic. I'm sure every woman has met a man who seemed nice at first, but then made an advance out of nowhere and - to put it mildly - didn't take it too well when he was rejected. Though this video made me realize that this isn't just men not being able to handle what is a common experience for women, but if you look at Anders as representation instead of just another douchebag, it does seem problematic.

Interesting video to say the least. Playersexual characters is something that I had noticed in videogames prior but didn't pay too much mind to it, or didn't exactly know how it made me feel. Personally I am a straight guy who dabbled a tad bit with bisexuality in my mid teens so I might not be the best expert with my opinions but I did have a positive view of your video Regarding specific points: Type 1: Fully agree. I can understand why they would have wanted to make Skyrim a place with not too many LGBT people - hell the two major factions are either an ethnonationalist cabal who trick people by saying they're freedom fighters, whilst the other faction are a colonizer empire - but when adding the Amulet of Mara stuff it really felt like they just wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Personally I'm of the belief that treatment of LGBT and hetero characters should be relatively the same and without the former being "in your face"/tokenised, but if they wanted to make the world less accepting due to the time period it's based on, then surely they could have written some alternate dialogue or do something to further affirm the player's love to their partner. Something along the lines of either "we can show the people around us that we're just like them" or "even if they don't like our love, at least we have eachother" at the very least. That being said, the amulet of mara questline isn't entirely well thought-out in general. Hell, the girl my orc romanced - Njada Stone-Arm from The Companions - has her voice actress change once you marry her because they weren't able to record the lines with the original VA. Type 2: Yeah the Alois and Gilbert stuff is just fucked. If there was only ONE guy who's whole schtick was "hey dude I'm gonna help set you up with a woman" then that would have been alright, and at the very least they should have been open about their plan and not mask it as a "romance." Hell, maybe if Alois or Gilbert were older, the arc could have been about them trying to set up their daughter/son with the player, with the player possibly even being able to choose the desired partner's sex. Type 3: I kinda see what you mean from this but I feel like Leliana was a bit of a poor choice. I think other people might have summed it up better in the comments, but to me it feels like saying "this person used to be served nothing but sandwiches at school so clearly they must hate eating sandwiches." Whilst in some cases, seducer characters only have sex with the same/opposite sex because they have to, I felt like Leliana was more fleshed out in her sexuality than simply that. Furthermore, DA:O comes from an era where bisexual characters were much rarer than they are now, and because of that the best way they had to advertise to players "hey she's into girls too" was to have her be more suggestive of a past lesbian relationship. Sure it's not the best way to handle it now, but it's better than assuming someone is gay/bi just because they don't act like a stereotypical straight person (same thing really goes for Claude IMO). It's like how many lesbian and gay people find the "egg" trend uncomfortable because it assumes some people are just closeted transexuals, with many of them being pressured to identify as such. Anders: Anders was really poorly handled IMO. To me, it felt as if BioWare felt like they had to make him a bisexual male because they needed another male to be bi since they made both Isabelle and Merril bisexual and only had Fenris in the male camp. Dragon Age Origins had the advantage in this case too, as since they didn't have any established characters, they didn't have to retcon anyone's sexuality. Thankfully I think the "I like you but I'm not into men" option is something that BioWare would be doing now as opposed to the brutal rejection in 2, especially since they had expanded the dialogue system majorly in Inquisition. Yuri: I think the way Yuri handles flirting and interactions with members of both sex are brilliant. I feel a tad iffy with the whole "Yuri being lower class/of lower origin makes his bisexuality work better" because it might give off the impression to some that a bisexual character can only really work if their character arc is all about empowerment, which in of itself can lead to more stereotyping and tokenization. Also the finger gun thing is a tad weird; I'm not saying that it's not a part of the bisexual culture, but it's weird to say that the fingergun was intentionally done when the game has another trickster who isn't bi. Personally I think it's because Japan often sees the fingergun as a rather playful symbol, as it's sillier to shoot someone with a fingergun than to use a literal gun to shoot someone. Spike Spiegel even does it in his iconic final scene, and that was to represent how he's still trying to put on a happy act despite his wounds. Anyway I hope you found my ramblings interesting lol.

@TheBard1999

2 жыл бұрын

Regarding Skyrim, isn't lack of LGBT characters more to do with when the game was made? From what i remember, In 2011 representation was very lacking.

@hilotakenaka

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheBard1999 I wouldn’t say that’s really the case. A lot of the gods in the Elder Scrolls universe even before this point were depicted as being bisexual - and one prominent character was depicted as intersex. I think it’s more due to how that there seemed to be a lack - if not complete absence - of same sex couples in medieval Nordic history. I don’t think they outright vilified the practice, but it makes sense as to why they’d highly encourage same-sex relationships: considering the harsh conditions they lived in, it’s likely that they were encouraged to have as many children as possible to help ensure the survival of their clan. It’s like how many people theorise that Jewish and Muslim people don’t eat pork because back in the olden days, pigs were much more likely to carry disease.

Mass effect 3’s gay characters are great. Not only are they fleshed out, having backstories and lives before the main characters come into play. But their stories work regardless of which gender you play.

Interesting video! Came to your channel through the 'Jacob is terrible video' and checking out your other content. Playing through FE: Three Houses myself and I don't really consider projecting anything other than myself (cis-het male) into videogame 'relationships'. I appreciate hearing different perspective on the issue. Minor complaint/question/thought that editor-Ian can't let go: :38 - 'bi' means 'more than one' now? So if I bisect something, how many pieces do I have? Could you call something with four wheels a bicycle? 'Poly' means more than one. 'Bi' means two.

@alfieshepherd6522

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I've realised people making that mistake about Bi and Pan and the weird thing is they still treat them ass different things

I never knew about that bisexual finger guns thing. I’m straight and I do that a lot so I’ve probably given a bunch of people the wrong idea lol.

@pikmonwolf

2 жыл бұрын

Haha, it's not quite a "hey I'm bi" signal, just something innocuous that bi folks love doing.

@murderyoutubeworkersandceos

2 жыл бұрын

i dont think any1 knew that, including the gays

@murderyoutubeworkersandceos

2 жыл бұрын

@Maranwë Adalaniell it doesnt look good to claim an infantile gesture as something to belong in the "community". And again - no1 other than the gays know about it. And i still bet not all the gays do.

@murderyoutubeworkersandceos

2 жыл бұрын

@Maranwë Adalaniell oh, so i imply this gesture is not a part of the "culture" and u swoop in to correct me, by sayin some isolated cases u know bout dont constitute enough of a sample to say a gesture is a part of a "culture"? Good thing u agree with me. U also didnt get the point how appropriating "finger guns" is not a good look, as opposed to u trying to correct me. Stunning, how u took offence to that, as if i was attacking u. And u dont get to tell me how to present my points, anxty little teen who wants to cure all his woes with sex change, to get all that attention and positivity all the other trans influencers get after the coming out. On top of that, finger gun gesture wasnt sth the gays invented. Its not their culture. Stop appropriating other cultures, why dont u? And being bi isnt a community. Have u ppl tried being defined by a personality trait, rather than sexuality?

@murderyoutubeworkersandceos

2 жыл бұрын

@@nothanks4042 wht do u think fingerguns is bisex culture?

I really don’t like that in ME2 it is heavily implied that Jack is bisexual, but you can only romance her as a male character. It’s the case when the character is straight only with the PC.

Great video. I also really, really liked Yuri. Rare to see a bi character done that well. Not that it bugs me if it's a minor/passive aspect of a character, either, but still.

12:06 - I remembered seeing a sketch about this in AngryJoe's review of Dragon Age 2 (timestamp - 5:26) and thinking it had a bit of comedic exaggeration. Not as much as I thought as it turns out...

There may not have been a lot of overt representation in Skyrim but same sex relationships have been a staple of the elder scrolls since daggerfall.

My problem with sexuality in videogame characters are the characters who are CLEARLY Bi and can only be romanced by one gender (usually male) and the gay characters that can only be romanced by the wrong characters (the dragon age games and ass effect games have the worst cases of this that immediately come to mind, like Miranda and Jack in Mass Effect, and... Most of the female characters in dragon age actually)

Interesting video. Re: Fire Emblem, I’ve pointed out in some of my own analysis that FE has a long history of same-sex subtext outside player Avatar characters (a relatively recent addition to the series), and that the subtextual relationships in Three Houses and its spinoff Three Hopes are overall much stronger than any incoming the self-insert. Dorothea/Petra is one as you mentioned, and there’s also Dimitri’s intimate relationships with both Dedue and Felix along with numerous others (Claude funnily enough reads as straight to me, when his interactions with the men in his life are comparatively much less emotionally charged.).I think it’s always worth acknowledging that there’s a degree of artificiality in player-centered romances in games that isn’t present in romances between NPCs/non-self-inserts - and that that artificiality can itself be a turn off for some players.

I have questions about why Liliana from dragon age is clearly a lesbian I have played that game a lot and never got that impression

what is the game in Introduction?

Something that does bug me in terms of PS vs bi sexual options is in Mass Effect 1 and 2. Originally it was possible to romance just about every character regardless of gender this wasn't done in ME1 because EA was worried the game wouldn't sell and not done with the second because Fox News threatened to get the game banded if there were any SS romances, I'm not kidding. Now I'm of the opinion that characters should be sexuality defined by who they are, if someone is gay they shouldn't be interested in the opposite sex, if they're bi they should be interested in all genders if a character is Asexual they shouldn't be interested in anyone sexual. So with that in mind I don't mind the idea of not being able to romance someone unless they're interested in a romance. For example Thane had a wife, he shows no interests in men so having him be interested in Male Shep just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Jacob... like anyone would be interested in him in the first place. Those two are fine but the other options just confuse me because the game makes it clear they DO swing both ways. Tali will look up on the internet signs of humans being attracted to Quarians regardless of Shepard's sex, she gets flustered when we flirt with her and is open to the idea of a threesome between Shepard, Garrus and herself. Jack will flatout state that she was in a Polyamory relationship with a man and a woman, and puts a greater emphasis on the women rather then her boyfriend, Miranda doesn't really show any interest in Male Shep unless you pursue a romance with her and that was unchanged with FemShep. Same thing goes for Ashley and Kaidan as both could be romanced regardless of Gender and there was no notable difference between either of them in regards to their feelings towards either sex. It honestly annoys me that we cannot romance these characters and the fact that BioWare didn't bother to fix this in the Legendary Edition despite the fact that fans were able to do so because were OBVIOUSLY optional to both romances and all show signs of being bi or pansexual.

Edelgard can marry someone other than Byleth and it's implied that she loved Dimitri

@pikmonwolf

Жыл бұрын

True, but she's definitely always attracted to Byleth

How do you feel Baldur's Gate 3 handles it?

What makes you say Leliana was type 3? She mentions one past gay romance, but having a past X romance doesn't mean a dislike of Y.

This is an interesting thought. As a developing writer myself (who’s possible aromantic, not sure yet, but definitely greysexual), I’ve had some trouble figuring out romances. Since my story obviously wouldn’t have a customizable character (wouldn’t be a video game), it’s easier to avoid the “player sexual” character. With that in mind, I think the issue here is that player sexual characters don’t really work in RPGs, due to the full customization allowing you to approach anyone for romance, and people will get mad if they can’t romance someone a certain way. Something I noticed more often than not, the writing seems to suffer a lot when you have a player sexual character in a RP story. When I wanna write a romance, I would want the whole story to build towards that, since that’s how relationships work, they all take time no matter who it’s with. A player sexual character imo works if the story is meant to be built up to that, regardless of what gender your character might be, but when you allow to option to romance multiple people, you have to sacrifice the depth and that’s where the ignorance and whatnot comes into play, because everyone is so much more shallow. Best example of this being an issue would be FE: Fates, SPOILERS BELOW: They clearly wanna push the story for Corrin and Azura ruling Valla together, no matter what gender Corrin is, but due to the nature of the game, things just seem a bit awkward between Corrin and Azura in Revelations cause they were clearly written as dual monarchs. But since you’re allowed the freedom to romance whoever you want, who is ALSO mostly Corrin-sexual, this writing falls pretty flat, especially if you didn’t romance Azura at the end of BR. I really wish they made their romance stronger by limiting it to just her, but because they allow the option to romance multiple people (only one gay and lesbian option at that), everyone has an equally shallow romance with each other. All that rambling aside, hope you see what I meant. TL;DR would be, in an RPG, player sexual characters are bad due to no option being allowed the depth required to explore their feelings, but in a more story focused game with less customization and no multiple romance options, they’re okay if they’re devoted to the single romance. Best example that comes to mind would actually be Fate: Extella, where Nero makes it known in Extra she’s bi, and she’s player sexual, but it works for her cause they get to explore a lot of the relationship and what it means for her

I'm not sure if Leliana is "definitely a lesbian" - she mentions in dialogue that she doesn't care about gender. But I'm surprised you didn't mention Jack from ME2, who is definitely bisexual (she mentions having had boyfriends and girlfriends) but shoots down female Shepard with "Hey, I'm not a club girl."

I would go full gay for Death Knight to be honest. On all seriousness, I was pretty disappointed with the same-sex S relationships in Three Houses. Great video by the way.

I am a year late to this video but it makes my lil bi heart bloom. Thank you.

What is the game at 1:38, specifically the woman character?

@froguy2518

Жыл бұрын

Dont know if you found out or not already, but the game is Saint's Row 4 and the character's name is Shaundi.

While I do agree with you on a decent portion of your points I do have to disagree with your point on Leliana. She does not only talk about and also flirts with other men (mainly Zev though) no matter who she romances. I'm not quite sure where you got the idea she was a lesbian from but it really isn't a great example for the point you were making. I've romanced her as both a male and female warden and honestly it's pretty much the same either way. No disrespect intended and I don't want this to come off as hostile.

in bioware's defense, they always wanted more LGBT characters (Tali was supposed to be bi, Jack was supposed to be pan, etc). unfortunately, they got bullied into dropping the options. edit: i wrote this before getting to the "what not to do" section. i regret defending bioware.

I really love your video, but I have a small complaint. I've played through Fire Emblem: Three Houses seven times now (I have a problem), and I don't think your analysis here is entirely correct. I think a lot of these characters are pretty queercoded, and aren't just "straight but gay for the player." Some of this is true - I mean, Rhea, Mercedes, and Jeritza all seem pretty straight. Lindhardt and Caspar have a pretty homoerotic friendship, and don't even get me started on Dorothea's interactions with literally every woman (mainly Ingrid during her paralogue, Manuela, Byleth, Edelgard, and Petra). I do actually really like Lindhardt as a character, but there definitely need to be some more gay options for men. Furthermore, there are no exclusively gay characters in Three Houses, everyone is either straight or bisexual so that a heterosexual player can always romance them. I do think Edelgard is pretty queercoded, and she also had a childhood crush on Dimitri, but she's unique in that she's basically just too dedicated to her ideals to have time for romance. I think that Dorothea is also a really complicated character, especially after the timeskip, which lets her avoid some of the more seemingly problematic aspects of her character. Also, Claude is definitely bisexual, you're completely right about that. So is Ingrid, honestly, and Shamir and Catherine have some gay vibes. Sylvain could also be read as bisexual, given that a lot of his attitudes towards women are pretty performative and come from a place of disdain. Sorry for infodumping under your video, I do want to stress that I enjoyed this, I just think that a little more nuance about Three Houses would have been nice. I also think that the main issue comes from trying to please straight players by letting them have whoever they want, then adding in gay relationships as an afterthought, so I'm in agreement with you there. However, Three Houses is kind of incredible insofar as the ensemble of characters flirt with each other, so it's a bit of a unique case. Also, I loved your analysis of Yuri. He's such a badass bicon.

@AlexStarkiller1

Жыл бұрын

Yeah Edelgard does a lot of very mutual flirting with Dorothea and it's not hard to read her childhood crush as comphet. Though clearly she is definitely canonically bi, I'm not surprised lesbian headcanons came about.

Im looking forward to when they get this worked out so there is room for 'nah just not interested in sex' / a loving relationship without sex.

I just want people to to acknowledge the 4 types os sexuality that exist within our more or less gender binary society 1. Ace - Asexual - sexual attraction to no one. 2. Bi - Bi/Poly/Pan - attraction to genders both like and ulike ones own. 3. Gay/Les - Homosexual - attraction heavily favouring genders similar to ones own. 4. Straight - Heterosexual - attraction heavily favouring genders different/opposite ones own. All of these are spectrums and can overlap, and the same goes for romantic attractions, that don't even have to match. Humans are so lovely and complicated, why reduce our beautiful potential?

Your audio levels seem fairly inconsistent throughout the video, making it harder to listen to. Still watched the video, but had to adjust my volume several times throughout.

marriage in skyrims alot like being seto kaiba

Honest question for the non-straights: would you rather have a bad gay romance option or none at all? I think I'd personally prefer none for some of the groups I'm a part of (like nerd culture and my religion) but I'm curious of your thoughts on this.

@EAgamer97

Жыл бұрын

Kinda depends If every other romance option is bad like Skyrim where it’s just there for flavor, I’ll take the bad option. If it’s like “Hey you want to be gay and get two lines of romantic dialogue, but nothing else?” (Juhani from KOTOR) leave it out

Which means a 🚲 can have more than 2 wheels and a bipedal creature is able to have more than two feet and bifurcation involves cutting into thrice, quarters and fifths in addition to down in half. Need I say more?

I only ever played as female Hawk and didn't understood complains about Anders what the fuck

I find it very difficult to disagree with you. As someone who is gay and actively looks for romance opportunities in games, I can say you hit every nail on the head.

How can you mention Fire Emblem without mentioning Soleil's horrendous support options?

@eleonorepb4565

Жыл бұрын

She is not even able to S support a female Corrin or Tharja reincarnation

Unless you're playing something like Skyrim, having romance options gender locked just feels restrictive. IRL if a girl is a lesbian then fine, tons more options i could pursue. in a video game with very limited options, what am I to do? Traynor in Mass Effect 3 is an absolute cutie and while i'm sure there is more than one nerdy awkward girl that exists in the universe, she's the only option, which I cant pursue if playing a dude :/

@mranthonymills

2 жыл бұрын

Luckily, unlike life, you can quickly switch to another player character that Traynor will happily jump into bed with! :)

@essurio

8 ай бұрын

​@@mranthonymillsYeah, but then how are you living out the fantasy of being a badass dude saving the galaxy?

Bi guy who makes videos about some of my favorite games? Glad I’m subbed

I love how bioware wrote Dorian. He's a great gay character. Iron bull isn't a great bisexual character either btw. He only ever hits on women

I feel like playersexual characters are the only way I care about them, I want to romace a character, let me. And if I can't do that with a specific sex main character it will make my experience with the game worse. (also, if there is no romance in the game that's even better)

I don't really subscribe to men and women being "the same" and generally interchangeable in relationships. So payer-sexual romances can feel a bit shallow if the interaction is identical for both sexes... But if player-sexual characters have different interactions for gay/straight relationships then I'm cool with it. I actually thought DA2 did an excellent job. My first playthrough was female, and I didnt get the gay-vibe at all from Anders or Fenris. Then I replayed as a male Hawk, and Anders was a different character; clearly gay now, and Fenris was... exactly the same, so obviously bisexual. I didnt think that was offensive at all. You can have Anders gay or straight; your game, your story, up to you. And Dorian from DAI was amazing. I literally cannot complete a female inquisitor playthrough, because I miss Dorian if I do. I think they handled the lesbian romances less well.... Sara the elf is just mental and too easy to anger (she's fun as a little sister or buddy, but who in their right mind would romance her?), and the whole duel thing in the Josie romance feels really weird as a woman. It's a literal cock fight. It's stags clashing their antlers. It's very male. And girls just dont do that. Anyway, I personally prefer characters to be straight or gay or bi. And I think having two versions of the character, depending on player gender (like Anders) is perfectly fine, and I prefer this to generic player-sexual behaviour.

For me, playersexual characters is a compromise. It hurts characterization, but it does allow the player to romance anyone. As such, my opinion on them depends on the nature of the game. Is it a game you're expected to play through one time, perhaps because it's really long, or even endless (like Stardew Valley can be)? Playersexual is the way to go. Is the game short or otherwise encouraging you to playthrough multiple times on? Then let characters have their own sexuality, you can romance them next time (At least, that's what I thought. Damnit Veronica! I even picked Cherche le femme!)

I remember this in Fire Emblem. It severely turned me off to the game. They made it have such a huge focus on the social and romantic life side only to really come off extremely anti-gay men specifically. That's another one that can be seen at times, where a lesbian or bisexual female is treated as sort of acceptable, you see it in a lot of Eastern games, but gay men either don't exist or they turn the romance into a romance or suddenly one or both end up with women or talk about dating women. Developers don't realize how much that can sour the experience. Like you bought and supported a game, love it and then it effectively feels like they spit in your face because the straights can romance anyone they want, lesbians may get lucky and get 2-3 options but gay men are lucky to get 1 and even then, it's very likely the romance will turn either straight or ambiguous and non-romantic.

Speaking of character gender and sexuality choices, I am a guy and I usually play female characters of different sexuality

I think another example of a clear Lesbian character being turned into a playersexual is, again from Bioware, Juhani from KOTOR. There's an option for male Revan to romance her that feels just completely out of place

@sebastiannemeth-ramirez2160

2 жыл бұрын

I don't recall that. I thought she was only interested in women, and could only be dated by males with a mod. *EDIT* Came from the official wiki. She's one of the first gay character in the Star Wars universe. Any ability for the male to romance her is a glitch, and none intended progression. Otherwise, if you are male, she turns you down gently.

Wait what the fuck that’s why I do finger guns??

There shouldn't be even hetero or gay characters. If that's the limit to what you'll write, might as well not write any romance or put any effort. People have types.

I'd say that if it's an rpg game then they're good in many ways because with those games the more choice for the player the better (really all romanceable characters should be bi, if any aren't it takes away from the control of the player, which is just bad for a rpg) but yes it should also be reflected in the world around the player with the romancable characters showing interest in other characters and npcs in the game also having non straight relationships.

Great use of the Mettaton music in this video. I was jamming the whole time not listening to sexualities or whatever.

16:20 Oh god i hate this

I would prefer if I could date all dateable characters in a game regardless of gender because I find it annoying playing a gender and not being able to romance the the cool/cute character because of it. I know its not realistic for every character to be under the bi umbrella but video games arent realistic and I dont see the downside as long as the dont do shit like the dragon age charcter not calling his ex his ex if you play a female charcter

In my opinion: Playersexual characters aren't a good idea. Having sexuality be set beforehand lets you do potentially more with the character than leaving it open and add a layer of depth to their personality that you otherwise leave ambiguous or blank so it can fit any mold. As it stands right now in a lot of games romance in general is pretty shallow anyway and only caters to players that're dedicated flirts lol. They lack a lot of realism and rarely if ever have an NPC approach the PC to initiate a romance. Also, while some people may see it as problematic, the type 2 & 3 options do happen! I one of my exes thought she was straight as an arrow but found out she was at least bi and a friend of mine insisted she was straight and even dated several guys only to come out as a lesbian later. People grow and discover things about themselves that gives them a new perspective, even with sexuality. If type 2 is allowed than type 3 should be allowed too, a few people taking the possibility of someone saying they're gay but then realizing they're at least bi taking it in bad faith shouldn't be allowed to remove the representation entirely. Personally, I find it more offensive to outright deny people from having representation of someone who's gone through that experience because other people are bad actors. Like saying "We don't have any black NPCs so white supremacist can't pretend to be the KKK". In the case of Claude, being flirtatious with both sexes doesn't inherently mean they're bisexual. Of course, I'm not in their head to know, but a lot of thespian men I know are like that. And, as a woman, it can be a real struggle to tell the difference between girls just being very friendly and trying to subtly flirt. Trust me lol, I know. Turned into a bit of a rambling mess. Hopefully one day we'll get a game that actually puts some depth to the romance options instead of them feeling tacked on and maybe even let nonromantic relationships hold impact. As much as I want impactful lesbian relationships in games, I also want to be able to have an impactful relationship without the game assuming I want to fuck the character.

@pikmonwolf

2 жыл бұрын

I'm inclined to agree that playersexuality is never as good as well written pre-set sexualities that are part of who they are. It's just a bit well... lazy. As for type 3, it's offensive because of horrid existing things such as "corrective rape" where an LGBT person is raped by the opposite sex to "turn them straight." And while a consenting relationship is miles different and not comparable to rape, it perpetuates the idea that 'experience with the right member of the opposite sex can change sexuality.' Sadly gay individuals being inspired to diacover more about themselves through people of the opposite sex that their infatuated with is less common than gay people being abused in an attempt to turn them straight.

@C4MG1RL

2 жыл бұрын

@@pikmonwolf Sure but I don't think taking the worst case stance on how some people will interpret it is any better than the people who genuinely believe in it. It's denying people who do experience it any kind of representation because someone else might take it the wrong way. People will be shitty no matter what, it's catering to them that gives them any power. We don't stop making movies where black people can be villains because some racist out there will scream "See? I'm right!" But we can't have someone who thought they were gay discover they're bi by finding the right person? It's okay for someone to be turned bi/gay from finding the right person but it isn't okay for the inverse? I dunno, smells like BS to me no offense intended.

@fenrisvermundr2516

2 жыл бұрын

@@C4MG1RL Cause many gay men have to deal with it on a daily basis and were even victims cause of it. We're constantly told "how do we know if we haven't tried it with a woman" or "you just haven't met the right woman" adding a character like that would indeed reinforce their beliefs that being gay is just a choice. Not only that. There are bisexual men who identify as gay purely for the perks. We are fighting day in and out to prove we are homosexual. We even get berated for not having tried it with a woman at least once.

@C4MG1RL

2 жыл бұрын

@@fenrisvermundr2516 As I stated. I'm a lesbian and I already know this and experience it which has only gotten worse since I've adopted. However there are also people who do experience that journey and that should get representation too. You should not let the people who might take the worst interpretation of something influence your life and the art you create. They will hold that opinion no matter what whether out of ignorance or malice. You should not deny yourself neither a potential storytelling aspect NOR DENY OTHER PEOPLE THEIR REPRESENTATION simply because of those people's opinion. Is it annoying? Yes. I live it. But I do not believe that denying other people the chance to convey their sexual awakening because of my/our struggle is right and it gives power to those very people.

@fenrisvermundr2516

2 жыл бұрын

@@C4MG1RL I don't care about representation. It's a shallow reason to add any character purely for the sake of it and there is no reason for a plot like that unless it's a story about conversion therapy. Characters like that only appeal to asocial outcasts. I write tons of gay and bi men from all walks of life that people can easily relate to, and enjoy.

What

Didn't know finger guns were bi, this will be useful for signaling to any bi homies out there

Imho, type 2 and 3 is inherently horrible for storytelling purposes. Type 2 either shows the dev is out of option or just want easy token points. Type 3 is straight up insulting and the insult goes both ways. This is why writing a proper character for a story requires a lot of research and need to list detailed physiological data, psychological data, family history, etc. Sometimes you don't need much detail and often a lot of it won't be shown to the audience but you will be glad that you know the limits of your character in narrative storytelling.

My problem with this video is the clear bias towards the gay character turning straight if the person is right which yes this does happen enough times irl so don't say it's worse than a straight character turning gay even though this happens to a less irl either someone is closet gay, gay or straight and given how majority is straight not saying it doesn't happen but I've heard about gay people turning straight but never heard of a straight turning gay

Honing in on a very specific thing you mentioned... BUT CLAUDE IS PROBABLY THE MOST INFURIATING ROMANCE OPTION I'VE EVER SEEN IN A GAME. My friends and I were like damn, this guy is 100% bisexual. But nope, get baited. Also, never before have I heard someone describe Lindhardt as Sheldon Cooper with narcolepsy and I actually choked on my water from that.

:- D

I don't understand why type 3 is worse than type 2 I know you said it's because of conversion r but there's gay people who do similar things to straight people

@pikmonwolf

2 жыл бұрын

They really don't. There's no straight conversion camps that mass abuse straight kids.

@alfieshepherd6522

2 жыл бұрын

@@pikmonwolf No but I don't see how that devalues what happened to the victims I'm talking about

@alfieshepherd6522

2 жыл бұрын

@@pikmonwolf kzread.info/dash/bejne/m5-lstB6mLXVXcY.html

Romance in game is always incredibly cringe and objectifying to both the player and the character... Why so many people are obsessed with it will be eternally beyond me. But hey, if it makes them happy, who am I to deny them that?

Gay lol

@pikmonwolf

3 жыл бұрын

*Bi lol

Well, on one hand video games are supposed to be wish fulfillment, on the other it is kinda toxic. In real life you might be attracted to somebody who isn't attracted to you and have to deal with it. Heck, they might even be attracted to your gender, just not *you* . But that's the real life we play video games to escape from. In video games you're the messianic center of the whole universe. In my opinion, being the messianic center of the universe should come with it's set of responsibilities too. I actually don't like it when in Skyrim you're the messiah but if you want to be a thief, assassin, or monster, that's okay. I don't like it in Mass Effect where you're the messiah commander but it's okay to f___k your subordinates. Such things detract from the messianic fantasy of being a paragon of virtue. I've actually come to prefer role-playing games where you can exist in the world and not have to be its savior. Because if you're role-playing a messiah right, your story is on rails and you have no choice at all. So either you're role-playing a messiah, in which case your character really shouldn't be a sexual being at all, or you're a normal being, in which case you're not the center of the universe and the other characters should get to pick their on sexuality.

@pikmonwolf

2 жыл бұрын

I think that's a very good point. I don't mind romance in stuff like Skyrim because it's not really at odds with what makes you special. But it is a bit odd to be a legendary commandet... who constantly breaks regs without hesitation lol.

@grimqk4932

2 жыл бұрын

While I agree with the thought i don't think mass effect is the best example because if you want to be the virtuous messiah, you don't have to romance anyone you can go through the whole trilogy with no sexual content, plus I wouldn't say that commander shepherd is even treated like the best commander, atleast from what I remember playing through it again for the 4th time you're treated as the one thats tolerated because they've been getting results as evidenced by the fact that as soon as they think you're dead pretty much everything you did got swept under the rug.

Dragon Age 2 was... so poorly done in so many ways. It hardly surprises me they'd fuck it up like this, too, but on the other hand... Wow. Just wow.

My two cents. Romanceable options in Fallout 4 are ALL bisexual, I call major BS. I felt like Cyberpunk tried to railroad me into relationships, gay and hetero.

The finger guns thing is awkward. People have been using them for ever. They used to be strongly associated with straight male sexual creeps in 70s, 80s and 90s. None of bi friends (including my partner) use them and the few people I know who do are creeps. Maybe it's my age, though my social group is a younger then me. Having said that I've noticed it online some so your not wrong.

So why is type 3 of playersexual characters inherently harmful or worse than type 2? They're both pretty stupid and shouldn't really be in games just cause it breaks the immersion. And bi characters or gays treated equally CAN be immersive breaking if it's medieval setting or something clearly meant to be homophobic. Well it depends on the game of course and if the game is not trying to be serious or immersive it's totally ok but with skyrim it just breaks immersion that you can have gay couple in a medieval setting of racist vikings and it's treated equally. Though skyrim is guilty of a lot of immersion breaking things, not only marriage system Games that try to be immersive NEED racism or homophobia or anything like that just cause that's what's expected from a certain culture or time period. Never even knew about same sex marriage in Skyrim tho lol.

@pikmonwolf

3 жыл бұрын

While that is true of games like say Kingdom Come: Deliverance which are set in a real time period. In games such as Skyrim or Dragon Age, the world is fantasy. Just because they are technologically similar to eras of real history does not mean they need to be socially similar. These worlds do not exist, so there is no reason that they 'need' bigotry to exist. The middle class did not exist until after the bubonic plague, but that doesn't mean any fantasy games based on a time period before then need to use the serf system. Also the third type is worse because of the existance of stuff like corrective rape and gay conversion therapy. Abusive things that are meant to turn gay people straight. And the idea that the right person of the opposite sex can turn a gay person straight is very harmful. So reinforcing these ideas, even unintentionally, by having clearly gay characters with attractions to players of the opposite sex are damaging.

@ileandorartmor9134

3 жыл бұрын

@@pikmonwolf While i kinda agree with the last point i highly disagree with the first one. There is probably correlation between being uneducated and being a bigot. Citizens of Skyrim are highly uneducated stereotypical nordic people based on vikings. They ARE racist and it shows (at least the stormcloaks). So it wouldn't be a far reach to say they also have another type of bigotry. Dragon age is based less on real history but still you can see it draws inspiration from medieval times with the heavy presence of a church. I mean if the game doesn't portray anything bad how should i believe in the world? Something you'd expect from a certain setting. I don't wanna play some Disney cartoon where evil doesn't exist and everyone are equal. It'd be just boring. It's not as if portraying something in a media portrays it in a good way. I mean the setting of Morrowind was so successful BECAUSE it portrayed the world not as some high fantasy but something that actually feels realistic and bleak but because of that it was more immersive.

@pikmonwolf

3 жыл бұрын

@@ileandorartmor9134 The racism in these games is against fantasy races that do not exist. Nobody is being attacked when you call a dunmer a greyskin or a dalish elf a knife-ear. But LGBT people are real and to have bigotry against them in these games is to make the experience worse for them. People play games to escape reality and have fun. That is what's most important. And plenty of ancient cultures accepted same-sex relationships anyways, such as ancient China or ancient India. Hating LGBT people is not some inherent part of existance, it is learned behavior. To have hatred of LGBT people be the norm is to say to real LGBT people "even in pretend worlds, people hate you for who you are." You'll notice that the racism is never correlated to skin-tone in fantasy, because that's too real.

Sooooo they're heteroflexible

This is what you do with your free time?

@pikmonwolf

2 жыл бұрын

I get paid for this, so my time ain't free.

I hate when games have gender lock romance option

@pikmonwolf

2 жыл бұрын

Which is very fair. Especially same it's usually same sex relationships getting shafted. It's a complex issue.

@jeb791

2 жыл бұрын

@@pikmonwolf the game I was thinking about when writing the comments was cyberpunk 2077 I played with female v and wanted Panam but found out she was straight locked for some reason. It blows my mind that cd project red had voice, body type and genitalia chosen separately so people could be transgender just to make binary sex options more important than its contemporaries

@DuskyPredator

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think it is always a bad thing, such as Sera from Dragon Age would be less interesting if she was romanceable by guys too, or Dorian who has conflict with his family over being gay. Maybe I think the gender locked ones are better in a way that makes sense. A good deal of characters be fun bi characters, then some interesting just homosexual characters, and then just plain straights who might fit into some heteronormativity or might acknowledge that they are flattered but not interested.

To be fair to Skyrim, it was made in 2011, when there was virtually no LGBT representation in most games.

@Autistic-Raccoon

9 ай бұрын

Fallout new vegas came out a year before and was published by Bethesda and has like 10 gay characters

Liliana is a bottom, that's her real sexulaty and role in life. I really don't now why you care about aesthetics so much, Lilana don't changes her role with the parners sex, she always act's like a puppy. She lost both her parents at the early age, she were raise in the uptight sosiety with not enougth care and warmth as the serving girl, so probably her only positive reinfoscments were given then she served well and with that she grown in the highly dependable and serving person. Look at that she did for Morjalane ! And than her mother replacement gone that she did ? Run to the father replacement. It's only natural for her to lay under player whatever his sex is. She needs that connection, thats why che amagins voises of the Maker or stares at the Hero after first sex. I only hope i have a propper knowledge of the Froyd and english language to explane this properly

Playersexual characters usually mean there was no firm vision for a game or the writer was too much of a coward to say no when someone wants to do something that shouldnt work. Im sure there are cases where its less out of place (id probably count skyrim) but its usually a bad thing

"Harmful"