“We can’t sell the same army to two people who’ll use it for two different things! The accounting is too hard! I don’t want your money, because I don’t know in which pile to put it!” - dunces at GW 52:52

@dominicparker6124

Ай бұрын

"I want you to spend twice as much to play two games, otherwise why are we making two games??"

@Bluecho4

Ай бұрын

"Incompetence" is the only way I can describe it. GW looked at a product line that could be sold to two different markets, and because of internal departmental politics, decided the best approach was to amputate an entire market's worth of revenue. And, make no mistake, the one they amputated was undoubtedly the lion's share of the potential customer base. Because The Old World is inherently a smaller market, with a higher barrier to entry. It's a more complicated game, with more esoteric movement rules, that demands more from new players, and has almost none of the cool new models coming out of the design studio. Say what you want about The Old World, Age of Sigmar is where the actual money is. To remove Beastmen from there, to silo them to The Old World, means the whole product line will inevitably bring in less money than if it was the other way around. (But, again, the most rock-stupid obvious play is to sell to both).

@matthewstudinski2389

Ай бұрын

It’s especially stupid for a company whose biggest obstacle to sales is almost certainly the massive barrier to entry. It’s hard to convince people to spend hundreds of dollars and hours of modeling/painting just to find out if they actually enjoy playing your game. Having models which can be used in multiple armies/games is a great entry point for people to expand their collections. For instance: 1) “I have a death guard army.” 2) “I already have a daemon prince, I should buy Nurgle daemons to soup into my DG army and dip my toe into a chaos daemons army.” 3) “Cool, these daemons can be played in AoS. I already own half a maggotkin army. I could just buy some of the mortal units and then I have an AoS army too.” 4) “Wow AoS is pretty fun. Now that I know more about AoS, I wish I had a Daughters of Khaine army. I should start slowly building that army. In the meantime I can keep playing my maggotkin army. But instead of creating an incentive for BoC players to try the old world and potentially get them hooked on another product line; they tried to force them to play old world and chased a bunch of fans out of the hobby.

Thanks for the shoutout Tom, very kind of you.

@VinceVenturella

Ай бұрын

At least one of us is a fan. ;)

What I disliked about the squattings: 1) These specific stormcast models were in the Hachette collection so this hits new / casual players more than others. 2) cultists models really contributed to have Std feel chaotic. Now it's just evil knights and barbarians. Also some sculpts were from 2022. And finally Warcry was a gateway into the hobby so I'm guessing this impacts new players too. 3) No communication on the future of Warcry, leading many players to think that their game will be cancelled. 4) Beasts of Chaos was one of the rare factions with a distinct gameplay (with maybe Sons of Behemath, Nighthaunt, and Kharadron in their previous incarnation).

@Gapis321

Ай бұрын

Models come and go and most SCE players were in agreement that the range is incredibly bloated. It's not about the squatting itself as much as how it was handled. You're 100% right. Warcry warbands (and I don't even play warcry or chaos in general) being gone is a huge loss for the AoS setting as a whole.

@chaoticzer0

Ай бұрын

Did see a rumor that a new version of Warcry was in the works so there's maybe some hope?

it just highlights the disdain games workshop has for its customer base, I have never known a company to seemingly get off on upsetting the people it makes its money off

@VinceVenturella

Ай бұрын

Its a shame, we have such good people making the games, but some poor decision making from above.

The big issue locally with the squatting is the current financial climate. Cost of living issues means people are spending less on hobby if at all and the cost of getting a new army is much harder.

@stanchakovsky

Ай бұрын

Yacht maintenance isn't getting cheaper either

@ryansherman3065

Ай бұрын

So true. I've largely switched to 3d printing models and only buying the sculpts I like. I was going to buy 2 of the 4th edition starter sets, but I think I pass this year. Every purchase I make now I will have to ask myself, "is it worth my time and money if this model isn't going be supported in the next 6 years?"

@Goon94

Ай бұрын

@@ryansherman3065 I agree wholeheartedly with all of your comments so far.

This was such a thoughtful response to the way GW have announced the cuts.

@Goon94

Ай бұрын

I agree Vince really nailed some of the thoughts I was having while reading the anouncements. Would it have really been that hard for GW to say use your Sequitors for Liberators? They seem to have such a stick up their bottoms sometimes.

As a Product Owner I love it when I can get Vince's Product Management insights as well as listening to Warhammer chat 😀

Sixth category is the models GW forgot to include in the article, such as Knight-Incantor, The Blue Scribes, Epidemius, Fluxmaster and god knows how many others that just disappear. GW really needs to up their communication between the ones who make decisions and the ones who broadcast those decisions.

The models removal section was a masterclass. I can only hope that it makes its way to GW higher ups.

I got into AoS almost entirely because of Tzaangors. Loved Beastmen in Total Warhammer, and was glad to be able to play some version of them irl. Where I fell in love with the game, however, was with the Beasts of Chaos battletome back around 2018-19. I've been playing my Cow squad for years now, and I've never had as much fun with the hobby with any other army. I'm devastated by the fact that not only will we not be getting any new sculpts for the range, but I won't even be able to play what I have with my friends without rewinding to an older version of the game.

On a positive note, I LOVE that all my big dinosaurs now get the ability to Power Through and just kool-aid man through lines of dorks! That is gonna be so fun!

Super excited to see what they do with the Liberator statue outside their own HQ XD

As someone who plays Bonesplitterz, BoC, and owns a fully painted entire Firstborn Space Marine company, it has been a bad year for me. With kids going to college and trying to pay off major home repairs I wont be starting any new armies. Im probably going to just focus on rounding out the couple armies I have left mostly with 3d prints from Etsy. I might just also play one of my friends beautifully painted "official" armies. He has the time and money to pursue this hobby in a way I just don't have anymore. On a brighter note I am kind of excited about the new edition, it seems quite interactive from the rule reveals so far.

“War Machine” means that the unit is portrayed by Don Cheadle.

@SuperDuperHappyTime

Ай бұрын

Also ‘Game by Privateer Press”

Sacrosanct is especially weird to drop. As that chamber has a different narrative identity as it's the magic/priestly group. More casters, more esoteric effects, etc. Mechanically, sure, they basically presented it as just upgraded Warrior Chamber. But that's a lack of rules imagination, not what the narrative opened up. Oh. And those new hammers on the Liberator warscroll look ridiculously huge. Those hammerheads look more like foamcore LARP weapons (and larpers have the excuse they're not trying to hurt each other!). They're just too big.

@borna1231

Ай бұрын

Yeah, I keep thinking how I like the original hammerhead designs way better than the new ones. The new ones are just one square block on top of another, but the eaerlier ones have that nice curve to them that makes them much more visually interesting imo.

@sirbobulous

Ай бұрын

@@borna1231 GW weapons have always been oversized, but it feels almost like parody on these new ones :D

Vince you articulate my concerns perfectly; the trust. If I am a filthy casual who enjoys painting slowly and playing a few games a year, my value for my time is essentially rendered worthless since we now don't know if/when other bloated or less popular factions will get legended/squatted. It's not just the loss of the army, its the precedent it sets. I don't trust them not to nuke other things. Also the fact that it's stormcast, the 'space marines' of the game is extra concerning. I agree that a simple unit entry of 'stormcast infantry' or whatever where you can use sequitors, liberators etc would be a better solution

I don't generally get salty about hobby related issues, it's a pastime that I engage with for fun, not to get mad. That said, I'm really disappointed about Beasts of Chaos leaving AoS. I've painted quite a few minis, and I want to collect more of them. I have zero interest in playing them in the Old World. I'm glad that Vince and Tom didn't try to rationalise this move, it is what it is: a mistake. They should not have done this, and people are justified in feeling bad about it. My only hope is that they might one day come back in AoS with a new model range, but I want to know if that's the case. For now, I'm contemplating proxying them as Slave to Darkness.

@darkwurm8784

Ай бұрын

Fellow Beastlord here, I feel the same way. I was sick and tired of other armies telling us that it’s fine we can still play in the old world. I’m not going to play a game that is vastly different just to play an army I have spent time and money on. I too will be proxy in Slaves of Darkness.

@cidahl7005

Ай бұрын

​@darkwurm8784 for what it is worth having made the jump to Old World I actually think it is a much better game. If you would ever reconsider.

@darkwurm8784

Ай бұрын

@@cidahl7005 I was considering playing the old world as I use to play fantasy Lizardmen, but I was going to pick something else other than Beastmen. The way GW did this killed any desire for me to switch over to the Old World. I’m sure it’s a fun game and brings back the nostalgia, but I dealt with the End Times of Fantasy and I’m not doing it again.

@cidahl7005

Ай бұрын

@darkwurm8784 but the end times is happening in aos now, not TOW. AOS is the one doing you dirty.

@darkwurm8784

Ай бұрын

@@cidahl7005 no GW is the one doing me dirty, not AoS. I already dealt with putting my entire Lizardmen army on round bases just to play them in AoS, I’m not doing it again for my BoC.

This was the last move that caused my group to completely move from Games Workshop games as a whole. Each of us (me the most being the previous owner of 9 40k factions and 5 sigmar armies) are just tired of being disenfranchised and honestly abused by these poor practices. I will be taking my business and hobby love to the teams behind OPR, Ravaged Star, and other wargame miniature companies. The last three years have been disappointing.

@Bluecho4

Ай бұрын

Hell yeah.

Before you made your four points, which I agree with, you talked about hobbyists identifying with their models. That they are a part of them, and when they are cut or dropped, that a piece of their identity is cut away. To your point, it’s not a passive hobby like other pop culture IP’s out there, where it’s mostly watching films, tv, merch, and cosplay. There’s a lot of effort put into these models, learning the rules, etc, so I get the invested attachment. But I think the recent announcement should serve as a cautionary tale about how emotionally attached one SHOULD be to a hobby that 1: they have next to zero control over, and 2: as far as rules and model lines go, is very unstable and not always predictable. I can only speak for myself now when I say that as much as I love mini painting and playing WH, I do so with enough of an arm’s length where I will not take any GW decision THAT personally. When push comes to shove, I will not identify with plastic.

I live in a small European country and this particular move has killed a portion of the community in the sense that most people have Stormcast and with this news we can't bring those people back because they heavily invested in the 2nd and 3rd edition SC sculpts. Thanks GW! Same goes for Underworlds.

@VinceVenturella

Ай бұрын

It's a shame for sure.

"there is something rewarding about bringing order from chaos" says the man who rewards himself for a job well done with a good organise and tidy. Not a beer. And this man is a confessed Timmy?!

@briochepanda

Ай бұрын

Every man has his vice. I can appreciate the deep sense of satisfaction you get from cleaning up.

@poserrrify

Ай бұрын

Tied on the best part of finishing an unit/model is cleaning the hobby space for a new project. The other one is sharing it with someone (typically the spouse who says very nice! with a sarcasm you can feel all the way in your testicles).

I am that one percent of players who is quitting gw games and figures after the news. I have about 5k worth of armies paints etc and played almost all of their games. I got into beasts of chaos at the end of second spending around 1500 on figures and months of my evening painting them to the highest standard I could. Like Vince said beasts are a part of my identity

@davidwasilewski

Ай бұрын

Me too. I’m quitting AoS. Going to give One Page Rules a go. I own over 3000 points of painted beasts that I only finished last year. Might re-base for The Old World. I certainly won’t be starting any new armies for any GW games going forwards. I’ve lost confidence in GW.

@xXxCatsnakexXx

Ай бұрын

Use them in a different system -Kings of War, 1page rules, 9th age etc etc

@leovaeg

Ай бұрын

Your Beasts do not serve One God - Games Workshop, but rather the greater forces of Warhammer Chaos - Run them as whichever Army most welcomes their heathen hides!

@trickflo

Ай бұрын

I was reasonably upset when they squatted cities since I had over 3000 points of wanderer themed living city some of which were difficult(for me) conversions of other models into a wanderer theme, Im glad I didnt do my planned conversion of karzai with a a couple wanderers on his back into a stardrake at least but it kind of feels like I wasted 1000$ but I'm personally way to invested to quit since I have several armies and got several people into the game so would be somewhat rude if I bailed on them but I definitely understand why some people would.

@joejoe4601

Ай бұрын

​@@davidwasilewski OPR is great man. Biggest thing I will add advice for is to let your hair down and have fun with it

Thank you for your evaluation of the "retirement" issue. I agree with most of your comments and with Tom on my favorite aspect of Stormcast being trashed. I only hope that GW will take actions you suggest. They have the ability to make changes and clarifications to allow us to play our models. However, I believe that GW thinks by removing our models from play, that we will buy their replacement models.

Really glad you called out how GW didn't specify which models were being replaced (and should have included the new models). I had several friends confused about the same thing. Massive widespread miscommunication.

They had an extremely simplistic view of Stormcast as a directly applicable space marine formula and it didn’t work. They then flooded the market with oversupply of cheap stormcast, the crowning "achievement" of which was Dominion. Sacrosanct Chamber in particular was a pretty big misstep. Those were not as different from the AOS1 originals as, say, Thousand Sons or even Dark Angels. Part of that is the aesthetic slavery they shackle launch boxes to, meaning that to the casual outsider, they all just look the same.

@vordronaii630

Ай бұрын

I wonder if GW originally intended to replace the old Stormcast models when they brought out the Thunderstrikes, but then held off for some reason. So many have comparable models in oldcast (Vindictors=Liberators, Annihiliators=Paladins, Yndrasta=Celestant Prime etc).

@chitzkoi

Ай бұрын

@vordronaii630 they did weird stuff with Stormcast. They kept the AOS1 box contents on sale as the only remaining Start Collecting boxes for instance. I think they calculate profit per mould and I think they tried to squeeze every last drop out of the ones they had, and failed, because the secondary market was flooded because they overestimated demand.

You are right in highlighting how good the rules in AoS are shaping out! That's an exciting time. But the internecine conflict between the two studios is just so incomprehensible, to the point that I see in future GW as a company printing 2 moulds for a pretty similar model but sold for two different systems with reduced returns instead of having a single sculpt sold for two systems... That and not having Skaven or Vampire Counts supported because of this reason is jut impossible to understand... I hope the success of Old World changes this trajectory and they stop this nonsense.

@Vasily_Kotickovitch

Ай бұрын

I fear that the "success of Old World" will simply lead to the squatting of the entire Age of Sigmar. For GW, this will be an absolute failure: they will lose the best AoS community, and ToW fanboys having decided that they are “kings” forever, will not buy anything.

@renatofornaroli

Ай бұрын

That is absolutely unrealistic. Half TOW tournaments are made from 3D printed pieces, the “success” GW mentioned must be linked more to paper purchase than miniatures. They also have a much lower stock than aos models. AoS is here to stay, I just wish they would coexist instead of battling each other

I personally got hammered with BoC which I've been painting this last year and was starting a Stormcast army with many models I have now being invalidated. It comes off scummy and shyster and leaves a bad taste for sure. But, for me, my main question is why we need a complete overhaul of the game? Yes, I get its their MO. Yes, I know it probably is inexorably linked with their planned future sales to keep churning (which I argue there are other ways to go about this). No, this isn't my "first time?"..But was 3rd really that broke that we have to overhaul it instead of tweaking? If it aint broke, don't fix it. It really throws off many new and casual (and I even would say some that want to play comp) that the rules change every few months and fully every few years when there's nothing inherently F'd with it in the first place. Couple this with terrible communication while with cutting models that people invested a lot of time/money in when many hobbyists don't have that much disposable income to begin with. I also feel for all the FLGs who prob aren't in the loop and have stock they may not be able to sell. This makes them look incompetent and greedy which I imagine is not the look they are going for. The whole process is so frustrating with this and 40k.

I think the best to hope for regarding Beasts is another army that the models proxy over easily with, a la High Elves into Lumineth

@darkwurm8784

Ай бұрын

A lot of us beast players are considering playing Slaves of Darkness but with beast models. Still not perfect but at least it’s something to play when our time is up.

The ENTIRE Sacrosant chamber being cut was an absolute shit house move. I am genuinely still fuming about it.

@40KWill

Ай бұрын

It was. I can only assume it was sales. I didn't see them get play in 3rd edition.

@toferkrz946

Ай бұрын

​​​@@40KWill You didn't see them in 3rd because in 3rd they didn't lean into their unique identity of warrior-wizards and they were made straight up inferior to other unit choices. There was still loads of people that had entire armies of them waiting until they got better. It was undoubtedly a sales thing, but it's more the fact that Soul Wars cannibalized the sales of unit boxes. Soul Wars being such a good deal and available for so long meant no one bought Sequitor and Evocator boxes, which didn't offer any additional equipment or build options compared to what was in Soul Wars. Everyone just copy-pasted the cheap Soul Wars models ad infinitum. I actually suspect this is a big reason why they moved to the big super-value, hardback rulebook starters being limited stock 'Launch Boxes' after Soul Wars. In other words, GW shot themselves in the foot and then made the playerbase pay their medical bill.

@Bluecho4

Ай бұрын

It's really bewildering. 2nd edition was arguably the first time AoS really hit its stride as a game. Becoming mainstream. Whereas 1st ed was still trying to find itself. As such, 2nd ed is likely when tons of existing players were on-boarded. And the Sacrosanct Chamber were the starter set army, alongside the (incredibly cool) Nighthaunt. Imagine taking tons of these players, whose armies may be mostly or all Sacrosanct, and telling them to pound sand. After only getting to play with their models for 6 years or less. Why should those people want to give GW more money to buy new Stormcast models? How long will it be before the 3rd and 4th ed Stormcast get squatted in turn?

Great 4 points . I WorK at a high level of management with in a business the finger pointing 👉 👈 between SDS and GW main is insane. I can't fathom a publicly traded company at GW level would not understand this. 🤯

@timmahoney2629

Ай бұрын

Your business must be small and certainly not a Plc. Information is not shared to peons. The decisions being made will make the company as a whole more money, that’s all that matters. The design studios might or might not be annoyed with each other it doesn’t matter as the decision is made to make more money for the company - and it will.

Very interesting to hear Tom's theory about bloating, then splitting SCE. Because I got that very impression at the start of 3rd edition. Was betting that they would just split SCE into Stormcast Eternals and Thunderstrike Eternals at the start of 4th edition, to unbloat the army. As for the cull, I was not at all suprised by the Bonesplittaz cut, but I was very surprised by the BoC cut. And you going deeper about the reason why GW cut / moved them made me hate that cut even more. This is not a small subgroup of very old and unpopular models that GW is getting rid off... it is an entire army! For such a stupid reason!

Tom, you should submit your stormcast army for "Armies on Parade"... I have never done anything like that, but I plan to now given how much work and effort I put into my sacrosanct force. I think everyone losing an army should submit them to Armies on Parade. Might be a good, productive way to send a message to GW.

@ThomasLyons

Ай бұрын

Love this idea!

Ah, Vince is a fellow Sorter, heh - should have known! The satisfaction and zen of sorting stuff into its most granular order is really something. I always keep something ready to sort for when I am overstimulated or have a really bad day. It's rewarding and calming to me. My magic collection, paints, my little aquatic plant catalog, everything I can sort, is very orderly. My floor and my tables, otoh... 😅

@VinceVenturella

Ай бұрын

Very true!

Many YT channels dedicated to GW trade (lack of) brain cells for (increase in) decibels in their delivery. This channel does the opposite. A genuine treasure for grown up hobbyists. Never saw one of your vids before and the analysis of the PR misstep was masterful. Subscribed.

@VinceVenturella

Ай бұрын

Thank you, glad to have you along on the hobby journey!

Dune and Warhammer in the same show? I am spoiled. I want to say is I appreciated you both breaking down the reasons this was poorly handled vs. the amount of raging click-bait videos that exploded onto the internet. Many of them came across as capitalizing on genuine hurt of players for likes.

4:53 I’m doing the same thing in prep for 4th edition. My 9 year old is psyched to learn the game.

all that ill will gained from culling overbloat in stormcast and yet for some reason post-cull we still have stiff like liberators and vindictors - exactly the same guys except one has hammers & the other has spears - as entirely separate warscrolls. They took on all this ill will, and they didn't even fix the bloat.

@hll705

Ай бұрын

It’s almost as if fixing the bloat was never the goal.

A small part of me feel like the move from WHFB to AoS meant they could stop updating the same units and model concepts with new sculpts in favour of always producing new units, new concepts, new hotness. At the same time, doing this; instead of the same army just getting newer cooler versions of the toys available to play with, you eventually, inevitably, get perpetual "squatting"-cycles..

Nailed it, gentlemen. Sadly, think only way gw would reconsider their business practices is if they get a serious contender in the market share.

One thing that has gone entirely unnoticed - Underworlds minis are no longer getting rules. I imagine this might mean a lot of these sets are going to be no longer sold. With the lack of AOS support, rules bloat, and less tournament tournout - I wouldn't be surprised with Underworlds gets canned. Especially as it shows further drift from the boxed games and AOS studio. Cant help but wonder if we will see an Old World boxed game return in its stead

Personal hot take they didn't scrub enough scrolls from SCE. We are getting replacement models for a few units and a whole new chamber. So unless they are going this lord whatever and knight whatever can just be this new thing we'll still have way too many warscrolls. Evos on kitties was the only real big hit for me i had a unit that was 2nd in line to be painted and i still have a unit in box to be built. After that article i put aside anything being replaced. and started to paint units i know are sticking around. I still might paint the things I have, but that is such a low priority. The bow on the chariot just seemingly being a better choice is a little frustrating as i built both of mine with the spear. I pretty much agree with the tin foil hat theory. SCE were supposed to be the AOS space marines with their incredibly bloated books and amount of models not to mention all the "divergent" chapter stuff. SCE didn't take off like they hoped and they had to walk back their plans. It also doesn't help that a slight gear change = completely different scroll in AOS. From what we have been seeing i'm liking a lot of the 4ed changes and ideas. It really does seem that 40k and AOS are bouncing off ideas from each other.

ty for double shout outs please enjoy the vids

@VinceVenturella

Ай бұрын

Very much enjoying brother.

the stuff you were saying round the 45min mark is so more eloquently and calmingly put, its nice to see you get something right which a multi million globe spanning monopoly owning of a company could not

Vince because we love you we ask you to stop smoking.

I bought my stormcast army during second edition sad to see them go. Talk about the trust .I won't be buying anything new

HeyWoah's 1993 odyssey is honestly going to be a hard video to top this year.

In the current edition of 40k they removed all the Horus heresy models from the games. The big stompy dreadnoughts were quite popular in 40k.

@escapo6895

Ай бұрын

FWIW, the legends rules for those units are all perfectly fine. Sure, not tournament legal, but if a player wants a game with a friend I see no issue with them at all. The balance of the game has so far remained steady, so they haven't been left behind like they might have been in other editions.

Aren't Warriors of Chaos supposed to be in The Old World? Somehow I doubt they're going to snap StD's neck because of that. I think it's just a limp-wristed excuse they threw out to justify squatting BoC.

The other thing that was bad about this was the tone. It sounded positively jovial while killing people's armies.

Regarding Vince’s point three. The inter company battle. I’ve lived through it. It starts when one executive has an idea, and another executive argues against it... for whatever reason. Then it becomes a battle of personalities which has nothing to do with any actual business reality. It’s not about resource management, profitability or customer service. It’s just that Jim said “x” was a bad idea and Bob got to try it anyway and now Jim has to make sure Bob was wrong so that Jim can be right. What’s good for the company as a whole? Be Damned.

The death of Beasts of Chaos in AoS hurts man. I don't WANT to play the Old World or OPR or whatever, I WANT to play the new edition of AoS with my play group. But I probably won't, because my army sunsets in Summer of 2025. Oh well, at least I can still play them in Total War.

Don't do AiS, but love the podcast and definitely prefer to forge my own hobby path. Thanks for being lighthouse.

I was working up to jumping into AoS, I picked up the new Seraphon box cause I liked the new sculpts and I have always liked the Skaven and was excited about the new edition. Now I feel like I dodged a bullet. Ill pass on it now and sell off or trade the Seraphon. If they are killing off Warcry, which was causing the interest in AoS then I may be done with even more. What they did to Underworlds is still fresh in my memory, so doing this crap isn't helping. Underworlds was great low price and new box once a year, now its double the price and every six months with lazier card design system.

My gripe with the rules change on dual weapons vs weapon and shield is that they’ve responded that the stat line remains the same between those load outs - I’m all about hobby your own way and we can counts them as whatever - but it feels oddly limiting that I can’t say a load out is the shield for a defensive benefit or dual weapons for an offensive benefit; feels a little too simplified now. Definitely sad to see Beasts of Chaos go from AoS given then range is still being supported but in the land of the squares :( 10 out of 10 my issue with the article was WarCry warband related personally haha - gosh everything’s gone out of stock fast here though due to that Fomo

Really enjoyed the show! Great discussing about the removed models, and also really liked your explanation of the new warscrolls and commands

I fell in love with AOS in 2nd. Loved every part of it and had so much fun. 3rd killed the fun. How many pages were the core rules in 2.0 vs 3.0? ALOT. A huge percentage increase. GW prided themselves on AOS and how small the rule set was. They turned their back on us with 3.0. Please please get 4.0 back to the pride of why AOS was originally developed.

Hey Vince and Tom, I really like your takes on the removed models. What do you think about posting that section as it's own short form video? Think it would get even wider traction.

GW as a business has always struck me as trying desperately to claw defeat from the jaws of victory. They've ridden this incredible wave of success on the back of 90s-kid-turned-dad nostalgia mining and yet they still make these bone-headed decisions like the whole "never the streams shall cross" with regards to using models in multiple game systens. It's so dumb it hurts to watch. The worst of it is it's inconsistent to the point of hypocritical. I can currently use my chaos daemons in 4 different major game systems!

YES. Just yes. 100% correct. The article was a complete failure. Egregious, short sighted, foolish, amateurish, sloppy, inauthentic and lazy amongst others. I'm surprised by how well Tom took the loss of Valkia. He talked about her so much. That's weird to me. I'm still excited for 4th. To be clear lol

Thank you Vince for your comments about the Squattening. I pretty much 100% agree with what you said and made the same arguments in threads about the issue. Especially about how we develop an emotional attachment to our models.

On the topic of other changes: -new warscroll format is an improvement, design constraint to fit every scroll on a single card makes usrs feel like cheating though -I think many armies will have more CP than they used to -redeploy timing is better for streamlining, worse for counterplay -new unleash hell is a strict upgrade right? After we had to nerf UH. We'll see what shooting looks like but the chariots range is untouched. -I don't like some commands costing extra cp. I get that counter charging is good, but its just as unit dependent as covering fire and thats 1cp. -unleash spell: fun but teclis 1 drop having shields up and giving away t1 is scary. -power through: Cant have 💩 in Ogor Mawtribes

the one thing i dont like about liberators is that they dont liberate lol they stand back at home as this is where they "power up" in capping

Thank you Vince for summing up the issues so perfectly. You're right in all your points, but the no model overlap between games systems is truly the dumbest decision GW has made at least in my memory. As an example: HH dreadnoughts and tanks were selling like hot cakes back when they were still "legal" in 40k. Similarly I'd be much more inclined to collect a fantasy army if I knew I could just use square base adapters and double dip into both AOS and the old world. Truly truly baffling...

GW: We're sorry, we need to retire these 39 models because we have too many of them Also GW: here are our brand new, 49 models for sale. Buy now, don't miss out!

@hll705

Ай бұрын

And that’s reason number six or whatever that makes this all the more galling. They’ve practically promised already to re-bloat everything! Sacrosanct is too much bloat but the new ruination chamber is new exciting value add! Apparently.

@Basil_Ghothickovitch

Ай бұрын

- We can no longer support the outdated Beasts of Chaos model line. - We are pleased to show you the “fan-favorite classic vintage” Beastmen Brayherd model line for ToW! Hurry up to buy!

as an old WHfB player, i know this was gone happen soner or later again so i never started AoS from 2 reason. 1 The rules for AoS1 and 2. the knowledge that my army will be "non-valid" sometime in the futer.

@VinceVenturella

Ай бұрын

It's a shame, it's such a fun game, but I understand the retisence.

I am curious to see how many pieces each rat is. When it comes to chaff and such, the more complex and multipart sculpts become tedious.

@DanielRisberg

Ай бұрын

Yeah, that's what I liked about the skull pass goblins. If you're going to have a huge horde, simple, single piece minis is a lot better.

@Vasily_Kotickovitch

Ай бұрын

@@DanielRisberg This is exactly what I didn’t like so much about the old fantasy. On the tables I saw mostly just poorly painted armies, most of the models were simply primed black, and another 2/3 of the units were fillers. Players don't like their miniatures; to them they're just markers.

Love that Nagash warscroll. It looks to be funner to play (an unlucky miscast doesn't cancel the rest of his magic phase, no deteriorating movement) funner to play against (no hand of dust through portals, no self healing outside of faction rules/rally, no bonus to unbinding rolls so magic armies are allowed to play the game against him, etc), still does the things nagash should do - withering torrent of spellcasting, healing, buffing, and re-summoning undead units, threatens to outright kill anything that comes too close - so it'll still feel like Nagash at the table ('bring back one whole unit per game' in particular is a horrifying and aptly 'godly' ability), while the overall scroll is clear, concise, and successfully streamlined down to a single half-page. Whether he's good, too good, or terrible on the table will of course depend on points, and that unit revive rule in particular will prove difficult to balance, but for what it's worth he looks great. Makes me finally want to get around to painting mine.

I think the underdog getting an extra CP is really interesting when you start thinking about that you don't get a battle tactic if you double turn, so you could set yourself up to be the underdog at the start of round 3/4 with the extra CP.

In a similar vein to mistake category 3, I really hate that the new 30mm square bases in Old World aren't just 32mm squares. What's one way to get more people to play Old World? Let them use their AoS models on round base movement trays. Your market for selling 20+ year old, dated sculpts is already pretty tiny. Most potential players already have those old models, or can print much better alternatives. Who's buying Old World stuff? But if you let AoS players dabble in Old World where it make sense to (like dryads, treemen/lords, chaos warriors etc....) then maybe those players will hang around and grow Old World communities some more.

Maybe it's Hopium, but as an ogor player I don't understand the mass fear surrounding ogor players. We've gotten significantly more support than BoC in AoS, and there's more room in Destruction than there is in Chaos. All it takes to keep ogors fresh is a new Butcher/Slaughtermaster sculpt (combine into one profile most likely, replace both finecast sculpts) and a new foot ogor kit or two to replace the current one even though they are still great (shout out to Larry). Yeah there's still finecast in the Firebelly, Icebrow Hunter, cats, and yetis. Those could all go and I think people would be fine. Other than that though, the rest of the army looks great and is made of plastic. Since AoS, BoC got: Beastlord rescuplt, Herdstone, Endless Spells, Underworlds warband. Ogors got: Tyrant resculpt, brand new hero in the Bloodpelt Hunter, Mawpot, Mawpit, Gorger Warcry warband (replacing the finecast gorger), Pirate Underworlds guy, Icebrow Hunter Underworlds guy

This may be my favourite episode so far (I'll overlook Vince's singing at the end)!

Dominion boxes are selling for $105 Amazon so I ordered 2 more. I can convert pretty decently so I feel like I’ve got good starts for orcs and stormcasts.

How did Vanguard Chamber survive this? Must’ve just stealthily avoided GW’s notice lol

Love the podcast and it's a core part of my routine. I get worked up over all sorts of things in my own life. I do want to comment that saying the GW worker should be fired is emotions going too far. That manager likely made dozens of decisions that we love too. Life goes on. I actually like the fact the armies were split and the settings are clearly split, I don't want dual purpose models as it takes me out of the experience.

Sacrosanct culling is crazy. They just released a fairly successful licensed RTS that heavily features those models and no doubt has contributed to boosting sales of the range.

I've been waiting for a box refresh for ever. I was so hesitant to buy resin models knowing they would get redone or scrapped

I find it genuinely strange that a knight would be rejected because it doesn't "match a house". Dreadblades are effectively lone knights, independent and often loyal to themselves. They've forsaken their house and have custom schemes and iconography. They're both a part of the knight lore and codices, with 'Eavy Metal having painted a bunch - Siren of Doom, Incarnate Slaughter, Gilded King, Hope's Shroud, Hatred of Krastallan, etc. "Sorry, your model that accurately represents some 40k lore isn't part of the 40k lore we like, bugger off" is such a pathetic take from GW lol

I'm all aboard the gitz 2nd wave train now. -In TOW and AOS -Use some shared models still (grots, spiders) -only the resin spider squatted I'm betting scuttleboss returns in a different form.

Great takes all around, and I appreciate the perspective ❤

@VinceVenturella

Ай бұрын

Thank you sir, hope you're doing well brother.

Re colour-blindness, if I may, since I happen to be one of those people, whose numbers are apparently too insignificant to care (8% in men, by the way). See, the thing is, it would have taken them absolutely no effort whatsoever (there are simply so many colours that do not pose such problem) to take that into consideration. If we're introducing an aid that is supposed to make the game easier and faster to navigate, then 'if you can't tell the colours apart, read the text instead' is not the improvement you hail it to be. Sure, I'm still happy that in terms of improvement, we're let's say, 85% there. But it could have been 100%, for everybody, without any additional effort nor expense.

@VinceVenturella

Ай бұрын

TO be clear, I didn't say its so insignificant to not matter. It matters. I tried to be very clear on that. There are many different forms of color blindness of course, and finding a palette that is going to work for all is difficult the important part of meeting the compliance standards for visual impairment mean using all of the different identifiers well. You are right they could have done better, but I think this was still a strong step forward.

@ClockworkBananaMoon

Ай бұрын

@@VinceVenturella Come on now, Vince... We need seven colours, and just avoiding a combination of green, brown and red would have improved things a lot. And really, my point is still that it would have been so easy to account for that. It's not like designing a left-handed computer mouse. Remember when you used to have the 'proud nail' segment on the show? That's mine. The rest of the surface so far seems great, of course. But this... this catches a bit on the finger.

Bonesplitterz are rough. Its incredibly clear there was no love for them in the rules team, even when warclans launched the common complaint was boring and weak rules and they were never addressed. I realize they were never a popular army, but those rules killed what little interest there was.

so, the chaos demons model line can exist in both ToW and AoS AND 40k, but it would be to confusing for beasts of chaos to be sold for two of those three systems….? Surely utility in multiple systems is a selling point if anything

i feel insecure about CoS dwarf and elves. i want that GW remove them right now, i need visibility.

@40KWill

Ай бұрын

Yep I am with you. I look at my CoS dwarves, soulgrinders, giant spiders, and furies/raptoryx with trepidation.

Did y'all already do an episode on what we should be doing between editions?

@ThomasLyons

Ай бұрын

Nope, but this would be a good topic!

I even asked them on twitter about the warcry warbands if they're disappearing overall or if they just get yeeted out of AOS I got an answer. The answer was that they'll pass the question on and it's been complete silence ever since.

@TheManAmongAll

Ай бұрын

A Warcry warband less than a year old just got the flick 😳 I don’t know what’s going on but it’s strange - spewing as i am enjoying Warcry more than AoS at present

Recently had my birthday and got a display cabinet and filled it full of spearheads and vanguards and it looks super great, i'm really excited for 4th edition it cant come soon enough! I hope they consider doing lots more Spearhead sets for all the armies, like for example id like to see a daemon focused Khorne set or a Ogres Beastclaw pack etc. Also how about the Dawnbringer sets, will they transfer over too? Hopefully!

Also I really really like the cleanliness of those new warscrolls

On top of all of the errors you talked about Vince, GW saying the Sacrosaint Chamber is gone because of a dumb lore reason was totally insulting to the players. It’s not a lore related reason AT ALL. Talk to us like adults here, come on! Great episode thanks to both of you

I think what would of helped the SCE range would of been to encourage chamber specific play via keyword bingo.

Practicing sleight of hand every night now. You’ll never find the dice because it will be behind your ear. That or instead of picking a hand, choose a cup of wine with/without the iocane powder.

Mystic shield as a spell ignore or 5+/4+ ward vs mortals would be neat.

As a 40k player that finally to move into aos for many reasons, I am so hyped for the skaven army.

I lost two armies last week. I am done. Going to different game companies. Pour one out for me, as this is not my first squatting. Just tired of it and my time is limited. They announced this in the worst way possible.

@televiper11

Ай бұрын

I’m switching to Battletech. GW is predatory.

@kausalkraken5951

Ай бұрын

@@televiper11 I already play Battletech, great game. Which house or clan do you play?

@televiper11

Ай бұрын

@@kausalkraken5951 I created my own Mercenary company!

Was waiting for your takes on the recent drama

I’m mostly sad for losing a lot of war cry units. Especially the Corvus Cabal ESPECIALLY after they just released the Raven Rook knight for the event model! Plus if they’re not going to support Raven Guard at least there were bits to bash

@KensanOni

Ай бұрын

Corvos Cabal rocks and i feel ya.

Tom is likely correct on the theory of stormcast bloat.

I agree, how a professional marketing department put out that post was crazy. I didnt give anywhere near enough information and the information it gave was no where near clear enough. Maybe trying to farm AoS4 edition clicks for 2 months isnt the best of ideas. Because dragging this out is a mess. The FW specialist games and GW model range overlap is the stupidest internal company muppetry that affects plays so negatively. From AoS v Old World and 30K models in 40K. Its so silly. There is no reason Beasts can stay in AoS and vampires and Skaven cant be in Old World! Apart from inter company silliness.

@Vasily_Kotickovitch

Ай бұрын

THIS. It's a real shame because I bought resin FW tanks to make my custom SM Chapter more interesting, and most of my AoS collection is old fantasy on round bases adapted for the Mortal Realms.

@JStruggers

Ай бұрын

@@Vasily_Kotickovitch Its just stupid, the fact it goes on FW or GW balance sheet mean nothing to me the consumer. You are affect the consumers so much for an inter company balance sheet. Honestly, grow up!

Thank you calling out the comments on the colour design and accessibility standards eg WCAG. I got tired of telling people this who just seemed obsessed with spreading more vitriol online

The whole time yall were talking about sandbagging, i just thought of Mario Party. CP are like coins, VP are the gold stars. Always prio the gold stars.

David Lynch is such a mad lad. The his attempt at Dune is wild.