I am so over this translation rabbit hole. I am a software engineer. I do NOT accel at language translation. I DO however accel at reading. I will read many translations, note any meaningful differences, defer to those that are more knowledgeable than I (my pastor and other more 'versed' Christians) and then pray on it. God will show me the way. God bless & good luck to all.

@oldguydiscgolf9631

2 жыл бұрын

KEYWORD here = MEANINGFUL. I have read so many articles and watched SO many videos on MEANINGLESS differences I want to SCREAM! Please stop (not you Mark Ward, and most others ... but far too many looking for 'clicks'!)

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

This Is good humility and diligence.

@Bible_bits

Жыл бұрын

With respect, can a code be written accurately, execute, and still produce results different than desired? The question is whether the code with no errors detected is the correct code

@Me2Lancer

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! Reading multiple translations is often the best way to derive the essence of a passage.

@justwest871

Жыл бұрын

You’ll be in heaven soon God will show the King James Authorized 1611 Version is His Word, have a nice day. If it wasn’t perfect I’d stop believing in God Genesis 24:22, :30 and :47 and I’m a new Christian

Mark, perhaps there is a homonym/idiom here with Job 30:9-10 "And now am I their song, yea, I am their byword. They abhor me, they flee far from me, and spare not to spit in my face." Notice how in Job 30:9-10 he has become "their song," and they spare not to "spit in ...[his] face." The KJV text of Job 17:6 does not say I "used to be" a tambourine, but I was "as" a timbrel. The timbrel was an instrument that was struck. While תֹּפֶת is an act of spitting, it is very close to the word תָּפַף ( which means to strike or to beat [especially a timbrel]). It could be that Job is saying I have become a byword and am one who was beaten (enter imagery of tabret) and spit upon (the two Hebrew words are very close in sound). By noticing this connection one may also see Job as a type of Christ. Notice how Christ, like Job, was treated with contempt as they "spat in his face" and "struck" Him while making Him a byword. Matthew 26:67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands, Matthew 27:30 And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. Mark 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again. Mark 14:65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands. Mark 15:19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him. Furthermore, notice also that there may be a connection with the place Tophet תֹּפֶת (also known as the valley of Hinnom) which sounds very similar to תֹּפֶת. Isaiah 30:31-33 states "For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod. And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it. For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it. Just thought I might add to the discussion. I am no Hebrew scholar and don't claim to be, just a sincere Christian who loves God's perfect word (Ps. 19:7; 18:30; 111:7; Deu 32:4; Rom 12:2; Jas 1:17).

@stricklytheology

2 жыл бұрын

Also I don't think the KJV translators confused tophet with toph, rather I think they recognized other places such as Isaiah 30:32 where בְּתֻפִּים the plural of תֹּף is used. Spit would not work in this context.

@4jgarner

5 ай бұрын

That's a fascinating thought! And this is why I say there can't be a "perfect" translation. Not even necessarily because of errors but because it's not always possible to put certain things, like a play on words, into a receptor language.

@alcabins2722

Ай бұрын

@@4jgarner to say God can't do what he said he would is blasphemy

@4jgarner

Ай бұрын

@@alcabins2722 it absolutely is! A hearty Amen on my part.

The blessing we have now is that most reference editions of KJV's will have the side note on that verse and many others for either correction or literal rendering.

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

I am glad for such editions. I have little conception, however, for how many KJV readers are using them. Do you?

@jonk9041

2 жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords , true sadly they don't take advantage of the side notes. The beauty of even the NKJV that has most of the textual variant readings that defer from TR in the side notes and how we need to utilize them more. I'm an ESV guy but been actually really appreciating the scholarship in the NIV (2011). I'll still use the KJV once in awhile. Thank you for your videos, very informative and encouraging. Soli deo gloria!

@noneofyourbusiness9635

2 жыл бұрын

@@jonk9041 Error found in the textual critics: kzread.info/dash/bejne/c4lq24-AnM2Wp7Q.html

How to look at Timothy Bird's research & am I spelling his name correctly?Anyone, please reply. Thank you

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

Timothy Berg; kjbhistory.com. Excellent stuff. He’s done hard work for the church.

The main thing people fail to understand is that language is a moving target, its regional and to some extent individual. Its a little more complex than most would care to admit. The message is pure holy and inspired.

@markwardonwords

7 ай бұрын

Agreed!

Is the standard Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament you reference here available somewhere onine?

@ozrithclay6921

2 ай бұрын

It's available through Logos bible study software I believe. (But it isn't cheap)

Jerome's attempt was "They have made me like a common proverb, and I am an example before their face."

Job 17:6 "He has made me a byword of the people(God made him a instrument of suffering to the people), and before I was as a tambourine(a instrument of praise to the people). Job 2:10 "Shall we accept good(praise) from God, and not accept adversity(suffering)?" He has made me a instrument of suffering to the people, and before I was as a instrument of praise to them. Shall we accept praise from God, and not accept suffering? No, we should accept both.

I just checked my BLB app, checking the interlinear for Job 17:6....and they don't even reference the tabret as a translation for Hebrew 'topet'. Something about that is just funny.

The same word for or related to "spitting" cannot be found in Num 12:14, Deut 25:9, 1 Sam 21:13, Isa 50:6, Lev 15:8. Also, why the difference between ESV and NIV on this point?

@ozrithclay6921

2 ай бұрын

I'm gonna try to answer your question, but I'm not 100% sure of what you're asking. If your meaning "how do we get that same phrase in these verses without translating from the same Hebrew word?" The answer is simple. There can be many words in a source language that translate the same in the destination language. For example, Jesus asked Peter "do you love me?" 3 times. But the Greek, Jesus asked him with 2 different words that were translated as "love". As for the difference in Job 17:6 in the ESV and NIV. It's unclear of which saying ("they spit in my face" / "I am who they spit on"), is the intended saying. But the intended meaning is the same overall. (They show the ultimate disgust and contempt for Job publicly) In short and simplified, both translations give a correct and full sense *to the reader*, but it's unknown which was the chosen words of the author.

@Mark Ward can you tell me where I can find those kjv translations quotes?

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

In the preface: en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(King_James)/Preface Is that what you're talking about?

@juliuswilkerson5154

Жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords yes thank you so much God bless you always and forever

When you read out Job 17:6, I would have figured that Job was making an analogy where he had been beaten upon as one beats on a drum or tambourine. That means that if I had been translating the KJV in 1611, I would have put some effort into explaining the analogy. But they did not. Apparently, that wasn't in their goals. But of course, further study illuminates what was actually said.

Appears to be borrowed from a Geneva edition like 1587? "Hee hath also made mee a byword of the people, and I am as a Tabret before them."

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, there’s almost always a source for these odd renderings, a precedent. I don’t usually trace them out, because they can get obscure quickly.

@InfinitelyManic

2 жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords Yeah, I always read the KJV in parallel with predecessor English Bibles plus Luther, Wycliffe, and the Clementine Vulgate; mainly looking for Germanic cognates and Latin influence. Otherwise, to the moderns! BTW, have you produced a KJV video addressing Heb 10:23's "faith" rendering vs. "hope"?

Byword doesn't mean people were talking negatively about him. By-word means a proverbial saying, one that personifies a type, one that is noteworthy or notorious, frequently used word or pharse. Tabret is a small drum with or without cymbals. Job made a hyperbole statement about himself similiar to "death is as a drum". It is literally that simple and I am certian that the KJV translators figured that out considering they took certian words through 14 different test to figure out what was correct. What you brought up about looking for neighboring words and repeated words being only one of them. They admitted the are human and prone to error, yes. Yet, the KJB itself hasn't ever actually and genuinely been updated either.

@ozrithclay6921

2 ай бұрын

It was revised in 1611 due to an error in Ruth 3:15 that referred to Ruth as "He". And it still has an error in Dut 21:22 to this day. ("If he be to be put to death" should be "if he be put to death") Also Rev 22:19 should say "tree of life" and not "book of life" (as the KJV have it), because NO Greek manuscript says "book". It came from a copy error in the Latin Volgate where 2 letters in a 5 letter word weren't clear and the scribe thought "book" (libro) made more sense than "tree" (ligno). And since the man compiling the Greek fragments in the 1500s didn't have any Greek fragments for the last 6 verses of Revelation, he translated from the Latin Volgate to complete the 1st TR (that was used for the KJV) It has errors my friend. (As in things that are incorrect)

Please do a video on 1 Corinthians 13. Although it's widely known as the "love chapter," the KJV uses the word "charity" instead of love. Is this an error, or did the original Greek mean something more specific than love?

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

I should do this. My friend Tim Berg has already written some good stuff, though: kjbhistory.com/loves-labor-lost-charity-banished-by-tyndale/ kjbhistory.com/loves-labor-lost-in-kjb/

@francesrude3007

2 жыл бұрын

NO, IT'S NOT AN ERROR. CHARITY IS JESUS. IF YOU READ THE BEGINNING OF THE NEXT CHAPTER, IT SAYS,"FOLLOW AFTER CHARITY..." SINCE WE FOLLOW JESUS, THATS THE CHARITY. IT ISN'T CARNAL, IT'S SPIRITUAL.

@hotwax9376

2 жыл бұрын

@@TIMMY12181 But not all love is charity, and the Greek word more closely translates to love.

@fireflames3639

2 жыл бұрын

CHARITY MEANS LOVE

@joekent5675

Жыл бұрын

The word "Charity" is an "agape form of love". The word "love" doesn't suffice because it is generic and the world "has" it. Charity is the correct and perfect word because it shows and describes a perfect kind of love not found in this world. That is the simplest I can put it.

Another excellent video. Thanks for this series, Mark!

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

My pleasure! Thanks for watching! This particular example proved to be pretty complex. My Ugaritic wan’t quite equal to the challenge; I had to rely on authorities.

Job 30:9 - and now am I their song, yea I am their byword. Tabret means mocking job by singing song, with music instrument.

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

An excellent guess, and a possible parallel. But he doesn’t say, “I used to be a song,” he says, “I used to be a tambourine.” That seems like a further stretch. I’m just not seeing it, I’m afraid!

@kirbytabb3177

3 жыл бұрын

While I concede that the person to whom you are replying is missing the use of the tabret phrase, I must point out your carelessness in all this. Brother check your quote again. Job never said that he was a tabret. He instead said,...AS a tabret. BIG difference. You would do well to notice and mark “similitudes” in scripture, identified by the words “as & like”. I’m afraid you are way too careless with YOUR words to be correcting God’s

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

Brother, I know this will be unsatisfying to you-I myself dislike it when people won't admit a simple and clear error. But I said what I said quite self-consciously. There is not a bright and clear line between simile and metaphor. Similes are just a kind of metaphor. "I used to be a tambourine" and "I used to be like a tambourine" are not very different, if they differ at all. Maybe the latter is softer?

@kirbytabb3177

3 жыл бұрын

I totally get the “self conscious” thing, and it’s understandable. But Mark, this isn’t about simile & metaphor (I said similitude BTW). Nevertheless, this is about totally destroying the God-given method of biblical interpretation by replacing a word that should never be removed. This is not a small thing! You destroy the criss-references which enlighten the reader as to the spiritual and prophetic application of Job. The key in all this is in the same verse. The word “byword”. Any “plowboy” can use a concordance and see that the words byword and tabret are connected with blessings and curses upon Israel. The ONLY exception is in Job. Job is shown via type (aka spiritual application) to picture Israel in the Tribulation (aka time of Jacob’s Trouble). How many months in the Tribulation? Hint - how many chapters in Job? Please don’t simply dismiss this as Ruckmanism without honest consideration that you could learn much in this area. Also, the KJV translators knew when to translate the words for “spit in my face” ( see Job 30:9-10)

@jefflinahan5853

2 жыл бұрын

There is a huge difference between a simile and a metaphor. In Revelation 4:1 it could be the difference between the pretrib rapture and the posttrib-prewath rapture, consider the word "trumpet:" After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. If this verse said the voice was (=) trumpet someone might think this verse is the rapture, but like a trumpet (not =trumpet) not so much.

Strong's Concordance brings clarity for Job 17:6. The usage of aforetime and tabret have, somewhat, unique meanings for Job 17:6 vs other usages of these 2 words in other passages.

Something I've realized recently about absolutism vs confidence. God preserved his word in the exact same manner he preserved his own name. We don't know exactly how to spell or pronounce his name, but we 100% know the meaning. In the same way that we don't know the exact wording of the bible (or translations of it), but we 100% know the meaning.

@markwardonwords

2 ай бұрын

This is really good. Won’t be persuasive to the committed, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true! Excellent.

I have never learned to read the Bible using KJV but from what I’ve heard the pros would be: better poetry, heard memorizing is easier, and pronouns make it easier to tell who text is talking to. I was trying to find a reason for me to pick it up especially since I go to a traditional church and know some of the old terms as even NKJV isn’t difficult to read imo. I don’t think there is a good reason still not that it’s bad Bible or anything.

Very helpful…thank you! Recommend highlighting “how” a church leader can change course without sounding heretical. I think this is the challenge. Very scary when your livelihood may be at stake.

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

I have something on this. Will try to find.

I would love for you to make a video about words like “cockatrice” and “griffon” in the KJV!

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

Ooh. Good idea! I will consider this.

@Proverbspsalms

10 ай бұрын

So he’s God? His opinion matters?

My only real question about the accuracy of the KJV (and the TR and BYZ) is Mark 16:19. Can believers drink deadly things and live?

@derekk1

Жыл бұрын

It’s talking on a spiritual level, not a literal one.

@derekk1

2 ай бұрын

@@Nick-wn1xwconsidering it’s more of an account of history in Acts, I believe it was a real snake.

Need more on textual absolutism vs textual confidence

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

It’s coming-big time!

Very good video. The craziness in the comments section is the attack on Mark and others who are bringing light to the fact that the KJV does have human errors. The reason it is so hard to accept is because you have listened to the teaching for years and trusted in humans that the KJV is the only infallible word of God. The original word of God is infallible but the copying and rewriting is not. There are literally dozens of errors in the KJV and instead of humbling yourselves and seeing facts for what it is you blindly ignore it and continue believing and trusting in man. Most everyone pointing out and agreeing with these errors are true born again believers. Brothers and sisters in Christ who only seek truth in order to better understand our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Hello Mark. Have you looked at the LXX? Quite interesting. Thanks.

@markwardonwords

4 ай бұрын

Yes I have!

Bible translation from manuscripts is more of an art than a science, so I've heard. It is very hard to do!

@markwardonwords

Ай бұрын

It is indeed difficult!

I am glad i listened to this talk which is helpful for me to better understand difference between the verbal plenary inspiration teaching and verbal plenary preservation.which is a favorite KJV only topic.

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

Right! That's an all-important distinction!

at some point, could you go over the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy?

@markwardonwords

9 ай бұрын

A great idea. Let me consider.

Where is this Letter to reader from Translators? You don't put it in the film itselfe.

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

I have a video on that on my channel. Can’t send the link at the moment. But search for it!

@BeniaminZaboj

2 жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords Can you please told me name of this films on your channel? I very respect sources.

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

@@BeniaminZaboj I'm not totally sure what you're asking, but here's the link to the video I mentioned: kzread.info/dash/bejne/m6SarKmOZby_iLA.html

I remember reading this verse in Hebrew for the first time. I thought job was saying he was tofeth, as in the valley of topheth in Jeremiah

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

That doesn’t make great sense in context, either, of course, or perhaps commentators would suggest it. I didn’t do an exhaustive search of the commentators, but I don’t see anyone opting for that meaning.

@evereststevens7034

3 жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords I didn’t make sense. I was so confused. I can easily see how translators make mistakes

@tdickensheets

2 жыл бұрын

@Ian Don't force people read KJV only!!

@tdickensheets

2 жыл бұрын

@Ian Then show me in KJV Bible where God or Jesus said: "Read KJV only or go to hell."

@francesrude3007

2 жыл бұрын

@Ian DONT WORRY, KEEP LOOKING AT JESUS. I READ KJV ALSO AND I KNOW, IT IS JESUS HIMSELF. IN REVELATION HE TELLS US THAT HE HAD A NEW NAME WRITTEN, THAT NO MAN KNOWS, BUT HE HIMSELF..........AND HE HAD A VESTURE DIPPED IN BLOOD, AND HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD." HIS WORD IS ALIVE, BECAUSE HE IS ALIVE. SORRY ABOUT THE CAPITALS, I HAVE TROUBLE WITH HANDS. I STARTED MAKING MY OWN VIDS . GOD BLESS YOU.

I’d say that most if not all kjv only folks are cessationists(at least the ones I’ve met). I now have friends that are not. It’s challenged my thinking, wondering if tounges and the gifts are for today. I’ve been taught that, when that which is perfect has come that, that which is in part will be done away… being the Bible and kjv to be exact. Where do you stand on this teaching?

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

I'm a cessationist. I believe "the perfect" has not yet come (because when it does, I will know as I am known, and I don't think that has happened yet), but I still believe the gifts have ceased. I appeal to standard lines of cessationist reasoning. See the four views book on this topic.

@disciplemaker7488

2 жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords thank you for your time

@Leafbeet

Жыл бұрын

I read KJV, and am not a cessationist

I always feel that if people actually really read the translators to the readers in the KJV, we wouldn’t have these types of debates and sometimes falling out between brothers and sisters. As a person that reads many different translations I am finding a harmony in them all. Not one of top 5 translations belittle God or defame his name, awesome power. Every one of these bibles you could use to share the gospel with someone. it would be interesting to know if people who don’t speak English have such debates around translations in there own language. Although I suspect it’s a very western spoilt position as we have so many to choose from. To be honest I wish we were so passionate to making sure that others around the world have a complete copy of the bible like we do. I personally have decided to put my money where my mouth is and I now support that.

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

Fully agreed. It’s so unbearably grievous to me that we’re even having a debate over Bible translations.

@francesrude3007

2 жыл бұрын

CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT THEY ARE TAKEN FROM THE "OTHER TREE" IN THE MIDST OF THE GARDEN, THATS A SCARY STATEMENT YOU MADE. ALSO THE MANDATE OF THE ANTI CHRIST BIBLES IS THEY GIVE THEMSELVES UP TO THE BEAST. THEY MAKE JESUS A LIAR ETC.

@ernestbailey6617

2 жыл бұрын

You are suppose to study the bible not read it .. then only you would notice

@ernestbailey6617

2 жыл бұрын

@@francesrude3007 quote scriptures not your thoughts

@francesrude3007

2 жыл бұрын

@@ernestbailey6617 your in FOLLY. I don't/wont answer that. It's an information highway out there. Thank you for showing yourself, and what manner of spirit you are of.

@ Mark Ward Thank you for this video. I found this very interesting and informative. I would love to see a video explaining Revelation 22:14 and the reason for the difference between the KJV and the modern versions. This really threw me for a loop when I discovered it.

@markwardonwords

Ай бұрын

Great suggestion!

The irony is that the King James translators did not translate that verse. They copied it directly from the 1560 Geneva bible. A pre existing error.

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

Interesting. And they rejected the dynamic reading in the Bishop's Bible in favor of "tabret."

@williamjhunter5714

Жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords Thats because the Bishops Bible was created after the 1560 Geneva bible, in reaction to it.

@Proverbspsalms

10 ай бұрын

Oh, were you there? You were sitting at the table when they did it. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

I see no problem with Job 17:6 in the KJV. Job didn't say " I used to be a tambourine", but "I was as a tabret". St. Paul in 1 Cor 13 compared himself to a tinkling cymbal or sounding brass if he spoke with the tongues of men or angels yet without love. Job may have simply been using an analogy, maybe saying that his speech was entertaining, or that he was the life of the party, a good and entertaining host. I don't personally use the KJV, just as a disclaimer.

Hey Mark, in one of your other videos you point out two verses from different books, that disagree on someone’s age or year of reign… I can’t find those two passages. Ring a bell?

@markwardonwords

11 ай бұрын

1 Sam 13:1, I believe.

@omarkamal5017

3 ай бұрын

2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2

@joey_outdoors

3 ай бұрын

@@omarkamal5017 yes that’s the discrepancy I believe but where is the video in which he addressed it? It’s his argument that I’m searching for.

@omarkamal5017

3 ай бұрын

@@joey_outdoorsI’ve never seen the video just familiar with the discrepancy. It’s a scribal error. I showed it to a KJV onlier once and he almost lost his mind. Ended up just reverting to insulting me

@joey_outdoors

3 ай бұрын

@@omarkamal5017 You know what, I just found the video I've been looking for and realize I mistakenly thought it was from Mark Ward. Anyway, this was the video I was trying to find per memory-the argument is solid! kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZZ-MxMp7hZy-eKQ.html

Peace be with you, brother in Christ. I am not attempting to defend the inerrancy of the KJV's usage of "tabret" over and above that of "spit", but wouldn't the intended meaning of "I was as a tabret" be to express being beaten down or slapped around by others? This to me conveys essentially the same meaning, although the imagery is different, to that of being spat upon. For in both cases, Job expresses that he has suffered abuse from others, making him also a "byword". That is not to say that "spit" is not a superior and more literal translation choice. But perhaps to be treated like a percussion instrument, to be pummeled upon, does fairly capture Job's meaning here of having suffered abuse. It could be viewed as a dynamic translation.

Not to mention, taking one word, hell to cover four words in the earlier Greek and Hebrew scriptures, sheol, hades, Gehenna and Tartarus, is like me telling you that all the directions on the compas are East.

Job 17:6 in the Septuagint; "But thou has made me a byword amount the nations, and I am become a scorn to them."

@markwardonwords

8 ай бұрын

✔ That is one valid and important line of argumentation.

Tabret is one who plays the tabor not the tabor itself

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

Hmm. This is possible. The OED does give that as a sense, the second-and it has far fewer citations, the last one in 1634, suggesting that it’s uncommon. Got any evidence for why you’d take the second sense rather than the first? I can’t think of anything, I’m afraid… I *can* read it that way, but it requires effort.

Reminds me of " a clanging symbol"... a noise some people do not want to hear. Tabret is a one sided drum. This reminds me of friends I talk with who talk and never stop. I cannot get a word in edgewise. A one sided conversation.

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

Could be!

@rfjacob

11 ай бұрын

With respect, this two-word response is the most succinct, yet troubling, summary of your entire presentation, Mark.

I can certainly find more mistakes in the KJV. But as you say the overall message is clear and should not deter us in seeking and learning the truth. It is naive to uphold that KJV is the absolute and free of errors, but errors were introduced by men. Although I like KJV, other versions of the Bible realize the mistakes on translation and correct them albeit with copyright limitations.

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, we have many good translations to be grateful for, including the KJV.

in the passage of Job 17:6...... I believe what we are being told by Job.. is that before this time... He was talked about... but before what time...?.. before the time of his wealth?...destitution? calamity? in other words what specific time is Job referring to as before this?.. before his destruction.. people talked about him how wealthy he was.?. they admired him? ..they were jealous of his prosperity?.. or before this point in time once we determine for certainty.. what aforetime situation Job is referring to as being talked about...a tabret may be translated as an obsolete abhorring instrument .or as spit as you have found.. according to the Hebrew... hmmm an abhorring instrument ... and I found that this was an instrument often played by women... could this passage possible mean... that once Job was looked upon as someone such as E.F. Hutton...?.. when he talked everybody listened... yet now he sees himself as someone that No one wishes to listen to?.. Job went from being important to being a nuisance.. is how Job saw himself in regards to his countrymen...

In 2 Kings 13:1 it states that in the 23rd year of Joash King of Judah, Jehoahaz became king over Israel and reigned for seventeen years. This would put the end of Jehoahaz's reign in the 40th year of Joash's reign, since twenty three and seventeen equal forty.. Yet we read in 2 Kings 13:9-10 that Jehoahaz slept with his fathers, and they buried him in Samaria, and Jehoash his son reigned in his place in the THIRTY SEVENTH year of the reign of Joash king of Judah. This would leave only fourteen years for the reign of Jehoahaz, not seventeen years as stated in verse one of this chapter. There is no way you can juggle the numbers and make this come out right. This simply shreds the doctrine of inerrancy, which is the belief that God has perfectly preserved the Bible through the ages down to the present day with no errors in it at all even to the very letter. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There were mistakes made by some scribes centuries ago, however for me it doesn't shake my faith in the slightest. I don't depend in some false doctrine of inerrancy, particularly because of the shipwreck that it has made out of once solid Bible believers like Bart Ehrman, but I do believe in the infallibility of the original manuscripts. I also believe in the overall, overwhelming totality of the testimony of the Law, the Prophets and the Apostles as sufficient for my faith. I believe in all areas of theology, morality, prophecy (fulfilled and yet to be fulfilled), the historical account of God's creation of the world and of the world wide Flood of Noah and the story of the early Patriarchs, the history of the Jewish nation, the virgin birth, sinless life, death burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus the Messiah, and in science the Bible is accurate.

Curious to know if you've ever tried to point out the Jesus/Joshua confusion to KJVOs? For example: "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day." Hebrews 4:8 KJV "Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;" Acts 7:45 KJV When I'm trying to disprove the notion that the KJV is perfect, these have been my go to texts. It's hard to find an obvious error that doesn't require knowledge of Hebrew/Greek. Obviously it's understandable why they translated Ιησούς as Jesus, but in these two texts it's clearly referring to Joshua, which even English readers can see by looking at the context. If you've already made a video somewhere on this please remind me, I'm just curious to see how people respond to it. Your channel seems to get every possible objection. Lol

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

Excellent, excellent! This is not one I’ve covered. I don’t prefer to spend time on KJV errors, of course, because that’s all KJV-Onlyists will hear.

@davidgreen1517

2 жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords Anyone who watches your channel honestly can see that you have respect for the KJV and it's not your mission to bash it. But I do find it helpful to point out a few clear, problematic texts that get people thinking. Before I learned any of the Biblical languages, I thought the KJV was preserved etc. That every word of it was exactly what the original said, just in English. Then a friend in college pointed out to me something I'd never thought about before. When the NT quotes the OT, it's not always word-for-word identical. He showed me where Jesus quoted Isaiah and there were differences. Nothing major, but enough to disprove my thought that it was perfectly preserved. And that realization led me to approach the whole subject of translation with a much more open mind. I'm sure some people would see a video like this as "bashing the KJV," but I'm also sure that others will have their assumptions challenged by it. Anyway, keep up the good work, I have no doubt these videos will open the eyes of many for years to come. Your gracious spirit is always convicting to me. Something I need to work on...

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you, David. These are very helpful thoughts.

@supersilverhazeroker

10 ай бұрын

this is intentional. just a way to make the reader understand that Joshua and Jesus are the same name. Joshua led the israelites over the river of judgment (jordan) into the promised land. Just like Jesus will lead us into heaven, not getting the judgement we deserve.

Maybe being shaken around like a tambourine is like being mocked/spit at

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

Maybe?

I appreciate your work sir. Thank you.

@markwardonwords

10 ай бұрын

My pleasure!

@markwardonwords

10 ай бұрын

My pleasure!

Well done, Mark! I admit, I do not know the original languages of the Scripture, but I have confidence in its trustworthiness. I just cannot believe that if one word is obscure, then all is wrong. I love and use the KJV, but not exclusively. I do not understand how or why, this should throw my KJVO friends into a tizzy. Have they NO REAL FAITH IN GOD? That is how it seems to me.

I never realized before how much of Job's response sounds iike knowledge of Christ's trial. I do know that Job's trial is the labor of one in whom the Word is fully formed. He will be brought to a state of repeating what God says. The portion of faith called "the good part." We know this as יענה or John--the beginning of the response of Jah. As the doves call to one another with cooing, we speak the words of God with faith. It is fair to called these word "inspired" because they come into our ears as the audible breath of the Most High God. The lord our God is One. The book of Job explains how lightning comes from the snow clouds. When translated to thunder animals understand. Are we all called to seek the face of God, his holy presence? The last step requires taking on the role of the lowest servant. Some of us need a lot of help to do it. Job will become "a son of God" and experience that quickening which allows him to understand the language of light. That isn't all, of course.

In my Othrodox Study Bible (St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint): Job 17:6 is ""But You made me a byword among the people, and I have become an object of laughter to them." It's interesting that there seems to be two variations in this verse, because this make me wonder where my translation of this verse has originated from. I think this could be from Andrew Rahlf's Greek OT, which the book states is a source of the text. As in Rahlf's text the word γέλως (laughter) is used. This topic one one I find interesting, but too much of it I find distracts us from the word.

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, the relationship of the MT (Masoretic Text) to the LXX (Septuagint) is a fascinating study, but it can get obscure!

@alexdiaz155

2 жыл бұрын

I imagine even the Hellenistic Jews weren’t sure if Job was a tambourine or a face to be spat on.

God knows our prideful tendencies, so he uses imperfection to humble us and to drive us to seek His truth. So many papyri, so many codices, so many languages, so many variants, so many dictionaries, so many lexicons, so many translations! That's right! So, prayerfully dig and search among all of that material instead of wasting time. "For now, we see in a mirror dimly." Thank you for your insights!🙋🏼‍♂️📖😊

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

Yes!

I so appreciate your work. Have you done a video on the KJV’s unfortunate rendering of JESUS for JOSHUA in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8?

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

No. Good tip. I tossed it in my files.

@Philisnotretired

4 ай бұрын

They are two separate historical characters. Their names in English are not the same. King James version cited the wrong historical character.

@glennomac7499

2 ай бұрын

​@@markwardonwordsMight want to read Joshua 5:13-15 and ask yourself who the man was that Joshua, who had just taken over from Moses, was bowing himself to before answering further...

You may want to check the New Jewish Publication Society translation. They, too, translate this correctly, as does the KJV.

@markwardonwords

25 күн бұрын

Good call!

Luk 7:23 23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. [1 9] I found this. Isn’t it a mistake? This word offended is not what it should be here

KJV Ps 119:89 "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." God had the perfect Bible in heaven before it was ever penned on this earth

@khankorpofficial

2 ай бұрын

Notice how the KJV removes his name

Mark, I appreciate your ministry. All of your videos have been very informative. I do have a question about this one, though. I was having a conversation about this topic with someone much more intelligent than I. He has a bit of an understanding of Greek. He mentioned referencing the Septuagint to see how ancient Jews understood that section. He said they generally translated that word into laughing and the word laughing (or laughter?) is what they get tablet from. What are your thoughts on this?

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

That’s an excellent path toward an answer. And I did check the Septuagint. I just don’t see a connection between “laughter” and “tabret.” Especially not when TF in Hebrew means tabret. In other words, I’m appealing doubly to Occam’s razor: the simplest explanation is to appeal to a mistaken read of the Hebrew; using the LXX would require ignoring that obvious connection and inventing a strained one, at best. Thank you for this excellent question!

@alexdiaz155

2 жыл бұрын

I imagine the Hellenistic Jews were unsure how to translate the verse and tried to create a picture that captures both possibilities in the Hebrew. Whether Job was beaten like a tambourine or spat in his face, neither is far away from an object of laughter.

Great video! Thanks! I use a wide variety of translations - Catholic, Protestant & Eastern Orthodox. Some are better. Some are not so good. The KJV is one of the best, but imperfect, just like its reader - me.

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

I’m an imperfect reader, too!

People seem to be mocking Job thinking God has rejected him. At one time Job was someone they listened too. People listen to the beat of the drum!

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

I think, if I remember, right, that this is the fourth confident interpretation of this phrase by KJV defenders that I have received.

Well done Mark, I always appreciate your scholarship presented with a lot of grace.

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, Jon.

@MrShain1611

4 ай бұрын

Scholarship?????

@JonStallings

4 ай бұрын

@@MrShain1611 and grace

A tabret, like you said is like what we call a tambourine...and it is used generally in happy, joyful music, like songs of rejoicing, and which provoke dancing. The phrase "aforetime I was as a tabret" describes how Job remembered his life before his affliction came upon him, in contrast with how he was feeling at the time he spoke those words.

@markwardonwords

10 ай бұрын

This is one of multiple confident expectations I've been given in this comment thread, I must say. And I'm afraid it doesn't have any bearing on the arguments I made from the Hebrew.

@Nick-wn1xw

10 ай бұрын

You must have missed the part that showed, beyond doubt, that while you may like what the kjv here says it is flatly wrong.

Dear brother Mark Job is not the oldest book but Genesis ie THE TOLEDOTH'S "These are the Generations of" see J.P Wiseman. Job was written after Genesis 10. God bless. Another fantastic video. THANK YOU SIR.

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

Thanks!

He was as a blessing to everyone, now he's troubled and people are far off. Obviously.

@markwardonwords

11 ай бұрын

Please interact with the arguments made in the video.

What proves its imperfection to me is the word Easter used. Easter is just one day whereas Passover (unleavened bread) is 7 thus proving its imperfection. Easter is a derivative of Ishtar which is very pagan and God wouldn’t used a pagan derivative to describe one of His Holy Feast days.

@markwardonwords

9 ай бұрын

Yes, I believe that is another error. I'm less confident of that one, however, because I feel like I can't find a way to explain what they did.

@jmcollison10

7 ай бұрын

Everything I’ve read on the topic of “Easter in the Bible” has me convinced that Easter is the correct translation. By the way, Passover is just one day. The Feast of Unleavened bread is right after Passover, and is a week.

To me, this is your most important video! Because it’s a specific example of an error in the KJV. I would love to learn of other examples, if you have any! Thanks, Mark 😊

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

I really don't go searching for these. And all the (few) I've seen have been really minor and obscure things.

@LoveAndLiberty02

Жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords Would you say the KJV got it wrong in Daniel 3:25? It seems so considering verse 28. Or am I missing something?

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

@@LoveAndLiberty02 I think so, yes. But not wrong as in impossible but wrong as in not the best.

@LoveAndLiberty02

Жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords When thinking through the topic of the Bible versions, this was a big one for me. I, of course, don't know Hebrew, but I can't see how the KJV rendering could be possible considering verse 28.

@LoveAndLiberty02

Жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords Maybe the capitalization of "Son" is the issue, even more so than using the definite article. Clarke: "A most improper translation. What notion could this idolatrous king have of the Lord Jesus Christ? for so the place is understood by thousands. בר אלהין bar elahin signifies a son of the gods, that is, a Divine person or angel; and so the king calls him in Daniel 3:28: "God hath sent his ANGEL, and delivered his servants." And though even from this some still contend that it was the Angel of the covenant, yet the Babylonish king knew just as much of the one as he did of the other. No other ministration was necessary; a single angel from heaven was quite sufficient to answer this purpose, as that which stopped the mouths of the lions when Daniel was cast into their den." That's just one voice, sure, but I can't reconcile the KJV translation in verse 25 with verse 28. Thanks for responding.

4:20 Consider that a tabret, timbrel or tambourine as we might call it today is played by repeated striking with a palm. So in the context of the passage the KJV translation of the verse makes sense, in that Job is being literally or figuratively smitten. The cognate languages are interesting to think about, but nothing about the evidence you have presented would definitively conclude that there is an error in the KJV, just that similar languages may or may not have a different meaning than the biblical Hebrew

@henryjoseph3584

6 ай бұрын

There are other translations as well such as the Geneva bible which also use tabret, and so there is other evidence that this could be a valid choice of words. "Job 17:6 Hee hath also made mee a byword of the people, and I am as a Tabret before them." Geneva

@markwardonwords

6 ай бұрын

Or that the Geneva Bible translators made the same error-probably by relying on the same authorities. But you're the only defender of the KJV wording in these comments (that I can remember!) that even mentioned the cognate languages argument, so kudos to you!

@henryjoseph3584

6 ай бұрын

​@@markwardonwords Perhaps, that's the interesting thing about all of this, like with all historical/observational sciences you have to place things on a scale of confidence, it's difficult to definitively prove or disprove anything conclusively. Ill be honest with you I am trying to figure this out for myself right now. I appreciate your video here it presents good ideas and I am trying to honestly look at the issues from both sides and see if I can come to a conclusion that is satisfactory to my own heart, even if I can't convince others, I am less interested in that at this point and just want to know. One other informational point I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on, I heard the KJV translators were given the rule to be guided by the "Bishop's Bible" translation. Being careful not to unnecessarily change conclusions in that translation if the original texts did not demand it, and for this verse it says "17:6 He hath made me a byworde of the people, where as afore I was their ioy" (joy in ye olde english) It may be that the Bishops bible guided the translation to tabret as a figure of speech for joy, kinda like you mentioned in your video, in your speculative analysis of it. But it kind of makes sense reading it there, before Job's affliction he was a joy to the people around him... then it opens up the rabbit trail of what is the origin of the bishop's bible, and can I identify conclusive inaccuracies in that bible. All interesting things to think about and discover.

Very nice presentation Mark. I love it, especially the spirit of graciousness.

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you kindly, sir!

I know true seekers of truth want confidence in the word of God they read, but I think we need to be careful, lest we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. Matthew 23:24

i have question for you what bible do you read???

@markwardonwords

4 ай бұрын

Right now I'm reading through the King James Bible. I'm about halfway through, in the Psalms, one of my favorites.

CttC: 3:17

Job Dutch Bible translated to English 17: 6 beating the drum before everyone. Marginal notes17 That is, a common pastime and matter of taunts and ridicule.

@markwardonwords

10 ай бұрын

Which Dutch Bible?

@MariusVanWoerden

10 ай бұрын

@@markwardonwords Taken from The State Translation "Staten Bijbel" 1636 - 1637 is a direct translation from Greek Aramaic and Hebrew. The New Dutch translations are not good there is one called "The Book" used a lot but a bad translation worst than the N.I.V.

Excellent break down as usual! I sometimes think it's rather apt that we don't have a perfect translation, because it would mean that God's word is characteristically transcendent.

@justwest871

Жыл бұрын

It’s perfect in the King James, pray about it He’ll show you

@a.k.7840

Жыл бұрын

@@justwest871 which King James version though? There's several of them.

@Nick-wn1xw

10 ай бұрын

@@justwest871 I prayed. He showed me the NKJV. Now what?

Isaiah 40:8 kjv

Ruckman said the errors in the kjv are revelations. Wonder what this error reveals about anything 😅

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

And that's a neat summary of Ruckman's unorthodox bibliology!

@kirbytabb3177

3 жыл бұрын

Gentlemen. Before you scoff at such a notion, you would be wise to at least consider the truth of what Dr. Ruckman meant by that statement. I can easily show exactly why the word “tablet” must be left in the text. Changing it definitely destroys the prophetic application. I’ll stop with that, but if you wanna know what it is, I’ll gladly show you. Y’all are missing something here.

@kirbytabb3177

3 жыл бұрын

Oops! Meant to write “tabret”

@johnnieboy66

3 жыл бұрын

@@kirbytabb3177 please add to your comment. I'm curious...

@joshmccartney777

2 жыл бұрын

I don’t think Dr Ruckman ever said that.

Read 2 Kings 8:26 & 2 Chronicles 22:2. Was King Ahaziah 22 years old or 42 years old when he began to reign over Israel as King for one year? I laughed about this because many a woman will lie about their age. Maybe King Ahaziah was sensitive about his age. It looks like the translators translated the numbers 22 & 42 correctly. From a bible believer, Patty

HOW TO BE SAVED (How to KNOW you are saved and not just hope you are) THE BAD NEWS All men have sinned and are in need of a Savior (Rom 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" ; Rev 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. No man can come to God by his own good works and righteousness. (Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;" THE GOOD NEWS 1 Timothy 1:15 tells us "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." How does Jesus save a sinner? From the beginning of the bible to the end, God has only forgiven sins through a BLOOD SACRIFICE, because he is a Holy God he can't forgive sins any other way, Heb 9:22 tells us, "...without shedding of blood is no remission." when Adam sinned, God had to kill a lamb in Adam's place as a substitue, In the Law of Moses, a Blood Sacrifice was demanded for the forgiviness of sins. Jesus came to die for the sins of the whole world, he came to be OUR Blood Sacrifice, OUR substittue, he came to bear OUR sins on the cross, in OUR place. John 1:29 "...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." What must you do to be saved? YOU MUST REPENT; You must change from unbelief to belief. admit you are guilty, that you cannot do anything to save or help save yourself, and that you need Jesus Christ as your savior. Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done. but according to his mercy he saved us," Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." YOU MUST TRUST; placing your complete faith in what Jesus Christ already did to save you; John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:." Salvation comes by believing in WHAT Jesus did for you, 1 Cor. 15:1-4 tells us "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the GOSPEL which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are SAVED, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, HOW that Christ died for OUR SINS according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" All you have to do to be saved, and on your way to heaven is place your TRUST in the shed Blood of Jesus Christ and nothing else, as sufficient for your salvation, (Rom 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a PROPITIATION through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;") (Propitiation means the act of appeasing wrath, Jesus took your place on the cross.) Will you accept Jesus Christ as your savior by simple faith, simply trusting in his shed Blood for sufficient to save your soul from hell? The last sentence is all you must do to be saved, and that is FAITH, not works, TRUSTING in what someone else did for you is the only thing that is not a work. Please watch Robert Breaker's video titled "HOW TO GET SAVED" If you have received Jesus Christ, by faith in his Blood, you now have eternal life and on your way to heaven! I John 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." If you received Jesus Christ by faith as your Savior because of this message please let me know! You can copy and send this message to others!

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

Important verses.

Psalm 119 Thy word ((God's)) is a lampe vnto my feete: and a light vnto my path. ... Revelation 8 And the third Angel sounded, and there fell a great starre from heauen, burning **as it were a lampe**, and it fell vpon the third part of the riuers, and vpon the fountaines of waters: ... Job 41 Out of his mouth ((Satan's)) goe burning lampes, and sparkes of fire leape out. ... Isaiah 14:12-14 12 How art thou fallen from heauen, O Lucifer ((Satan)), sonne of the morning? how art thou cut downe to the ground, which didst weaken the nations?13 For thou hast said in thine heart; I wil ascend into heauen, I wil exalt my throne aboue the starres of God: I wil sit also vpon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the North. 14 I wil ascend aboue the heights of the cloudes, I wil bee like the most High. Seeke ye out of the booke of the Lord, and reade: no one of these shall faile, none shall want her mate: for my mouth, it hath commaunded, and his spirit, it hath gathered them. Moreouer brethren, I declare vnto you the Gospel which I preached vnto you, which also you haue receiued, and wherein yee stand. By which also yee are saued, if yee keepe in memorie what I preached vnto you, vnlesse yee haue beleeued in vaine. For I deliuered vnto you first of all, that which I also receiued, how that Christ died for our sinnes according to the Scriptures: And that he was buried, and that he rose againe the third day according to the Scriptures. But the word of the Lord endureth for euer: & this is the word which by the Gospel is preached vnto you. true1611bible.com/about/ In the beginning was the Word, & the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Doe thy selfe no harme, for we are all heere. Then hee called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell downe before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I doe to be saued? And they saide, Beleeue on the Lord Iesus Christ, and thou shalt be saued, and thy house. And they spake vnto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. Being borne againe, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liueth and abideth for euer.

@markwardonwords

4 ай бұрын

Please interact with the arguments made in the video.

@Elsie90581

4 ай бұрын

I have, sir

Sadly, you can't even argue with KJV Onlyist. I personally don't see any problem with reading the KJV, but going out and burning Bibles and scoffing at literally any good fruit the new translations produce is foolishness.

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

I’ve seen quite a number of these brothers that can be argued with - who can have a conversation. But then there are many who are like you describe.

@seansimpson485

2 жыл бұрын

Amen.

I think there may be a punctuation problem with the first statement in “The Sermon on the Mount”. “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven”. Or, “Blessed are the poor. In spirit, theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven “? The second makes sense to me. The first doesn’t.

@marcconley8515

Жыл бұрын

You took out the word "for."

Ya know what wouldve been useful, for the KJ translators to give a commentary on the whole bible so qe would know whether they knew what the verse was saying. If they didnt know what the verse meant, then you cant blame someone for pointing out an error they made. Imagine speaking to them and asking them one by one, what does this verse mean and why tabret? Biships bible 1568 makes more sense than tabret, they probably tried to interpret what tabret meant. "He hath made me a byworde of the people, where as afore I was their ioy"

@markwardonwords

6 ай бұрын

Right! Good points!

Although this might not be the most doctrinally important verse in Job 17:6 to me after looking at the counter argument and evidence for the KJB reading its the perfect example of why we should always stick with the KJV as final authority since the other readings completely invert the sense and destroy the contrast. If trusting the modern lexicons and scholarship can do this, it’s no wonder why the cults have such power to attack the fundamentals of the Christian faith on the important verses. This is not an error in translation its just your opinion, this video would more accurately be called “why I like the way modern versions translate Job 17:6”.

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

Friend, where does the Bible say that a particular translation in any language should be the final authority on what the Hebrew or Greek means?

"...and aforetime I was a tabret" Yes, I'm sure many Christians will lose a lot of sleep over this mistake. Read other versions of the Bible, don't just read the KJV because that's shutting out God's Word for many people.

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

I tend to agree.

@ernestbailey6617

2 жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords so does satan

@ernestbailey6617

2 жыл бұрын

Are you saved?

@faithinhisbloodministry8600

2 жыл бұрын

Not a mistake. What do you do with a tabret? You strike or hit it to get a sound. He was metaphorically saying he gets "beat up" by everyone.

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

This is one of the four leading interpretations that KJV-Onlyists have given me. It does make sense. But it doesn’t reckon at all with what the Hebrew says.

Why did you quickly pass over the word "Byword" here? Going to Job 30, Byword meaning "their song" (see verse 9). Byword is mentioned 6 times in total and it is always used negatively, as an infamous parable, "among the nations and or people." (see first mention at duet 28:37 and at 1 Ki 9:7) and something akin to a saying. It is also linked with "Taunting." You can also see heading up to verse 31 a parallel to wind, instrument like actions and "attacks" but then finally at verse 31 at the end of the chapter it seals the meaning with instruments, harp and organ. A word you can isolate here is "Harp," every time the word "Tabret" is mentioned, which would be 9 times in total, is interestingly always accompanied with harps save three places where either a general conjoining word is used such "instruments of musick" in 1 Sam 18:6-- In this specific figure of speech, so not a literal individual accounting for the instrument (see the virgin of Israel in Jer 31)-- And here in Ezk 28:13 where it is speaking about Satan's instruments that he created, the pipe and the Tabret, so that would be an account of an event. Also Timbrel, Harp and Organ is used just after, at chapter 21 as well, and again Organ and Harp is used at 31. But anyways, no doubt Tabret at the very most isn't an error.

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

Please interact with the arguments used in the video. And don’t call me Shirley.

@Isaiah_Cochran

Жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords I am. Please interact with what I just said, the word "Byword" is literally defined here, it proves Tabret CAN be used here.

@Isaiah_Cochran

Жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords Also not to mention the figure in the verse "I was AS a tabret" making it out as if the verse said "I was a tabret" you are sneaky

@Isaiah_Cochran

Жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords It's been a full month and yet not a single reply or refutation and this video is still up even after having read my comment.

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

@@Isaiah_Cochran I'll let you try again-without name-calling, and (ideally) without the claim of a doctorate you clearly don't possess. =( I find it exhausting to try to read through your prose. I literally can't do it. I don't understand what you're saying-except the derisive name-calling; I got that part. =( Truly: try again. Get someone who can write clear English sentences to go over your prose with you so that I have the possibility of understanding it, and I will listen and engage.

Thank you for sharing this video, Mark. It reminded me of something else that caught my attention in the KJV. In John 16:7-15 in the KJV the Holy Spirit is referred to using masculine pronouns, but in John 1:32, Romans 8:16, and Romans 8:26 in the KJV the Holy Spirit is referred to using neuter pronouns. This difference of pronouns is not present in the NKJV or the NIV (masculine pronouns are used throughout in these versions). Can you shed some light on this?

@markwardonwords

11 ай бұрын

There is a paper by Gons and Naselli that discusses these matters. And I just solicited and edited this piece: www.logos.com/grow/min-personhood-of-the-holy-spirit/ And I think this one might have discussed related issues: www.logos.com/grow/hall-the-filioque/

@genejoy637

11 ай бұрын

@@markwardonwords Thank you! That was very helpful.

@genejoy637

11 ай бұрын

@@markwardonwords I just noticed something in Naselli's article (1st link - the one you solicited and edited), "Spirit" is misspelled as "Spirt" in the 2nd numbered item after the 3rd paragraph. I try not to nitpick on these sorts of things (I can be pedantic at times), but I think this particular misspelling is rather unfortunate given the point Naselli is trying to make. That being said, I still think the point is well made and Naselli's article is both intelligible and edifying. ;)

@markwardonwords

11 ай бұрын

Thank you!!

@genejoy637

11 ай бұрын

@@markwardonwords you are most welcome!

It is not a major point or the underlying reasoning by those who recognise the KJB's perfection that because the KJB has been long time used it is right. In fact, the view of the KJB's perfection is a doctrinal argument based on scripture itself that recognises the Providences and particularities of the KJB as fulfilling that role of being the perfect Bible. That hundreds of years of existence of the KJB is at best a secondary point.

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

bibleprotector, no one is in charge of KJV-Onlyism, and there are multiple strains within it. I believe I am representing the mainstream, IFB KJV-Onlyism I know best. They are more responsible and careful than Ruckmanism on the point you mention. And I repeatedly hear from them that the way we know what 1) text and 2) what translation is right is God's use of it.

@bibleprotector

3 жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords God's long time using of the KJB is *an* argument but not "mainstream IFB KJBOs'" primary argument. Their primary argument is a list of scripture references (i.e. an interpretation and a doctrine) about how God's very words should exist today, be knowable, etc. It is a strawman to make out as if the age/venerableness of the KJB is their primary foundation. As for your implication that KJBO is fissiparous, the use of verses in regard to the KJB (e.g. Matthew 4:4) is common to Ruckmanites, IFB KJBOs, TROs (e.g. Donald Waite, David Cloud, etc.), certain Calvinists (e.g. Ian Paisley, Edward Hills, etc.), Andersonites, Riplingerites and someone like me. I concede of course there are doctrinal differences among Christians but the point stands that all these differing proponents primarily relied on giving a list of scripture proofs for the KJB.

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

I'll engage you a little further because you are engaging constructively. You are right that mainstream KJV-Onlyists appeal to many Scriptures. But to bridge the gap between "the Bible says that we have to have every word from the mouth of God" and "the KJV is that Word" they appeal to God's use of the KJV and its text.

@bibleprotector

3 жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords That seems like your bias or blinkers ("oh these are just lovers of tradition and what they know"), because if you start from the Scriptures saying there is a perfect Bible, then you would only then use as one of the points that the KJB has been around for a long time, but that is only a secondary point after having established from the Scripture a doctrine that there should be a perfect Bible present first.

@MAMoreno

3 жыл бұрын

The idea that a translation's historical usage gives it any claim to perfection is self-refuting. We could then just as easily blame the King James Version for the evils of British imperialism by that reasoning. Surely the atrocities of colonialism committed from 1611 to 1881 shouldn't be placed on the shoulders of the venerable translators of the Authorized Version, but if the translation is to be validated by all of the Christian progress during those centuries, then it would just as soon be denigrated by the cruelties committed by English Christendom during the same period. And even then, if any translation has a special claim due to length of usage, it would surely be the Vulgate, so the only English translations worthy of consideration would have to be those based on the Latin. Thankfully, even Roman Catholics have recognized how weak that argument is and have shifted to modern translations based on Hebrew and Greek.

Jeremiah 36:22 King Zedekiah burned the originals .... the originals never existed for some of these chapters

Thank you for your research Mark. I attended an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church when I was in the Army. It was an excellent church that used only the KJV. I didn't necessarily agree with them. But I used my KJV while attending this church and didn't argue about it. A few years later I moved to another duty station and found another church that was KJV only. They were extremely controlling pushed the KJV issue too far.

@markwardonwords

7 ай бұрын

Lots of great folks in these IFB KJVO churches. But they are allowing a false doctrine to separate them from other believers. It’s a grief to me.

@lonnieclemens8028

7 ай бұрын

@@markwardonwords yes. I can see it being a grief when you have family and friends in the church. Such elaborate schemes that Satan concocks.

@KJBTRUTH

6 ай бұрын

Pushed the word of God too far? Satan questioned the word of God, and so did Eve. It is a huge issue! Do you have the pure words of God?

@KJBTRUTH

6 ай бұрын

​@markwardonwords what are you calling false doctrine?

KJV Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye *all of it;* Not - drink all of it. Instead, it should read: "Drink from it, all of you,"

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for stopping by again, Jess!

There is, of course, perhaps the most famous error in the KJV: “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” (Matt 23:24) The translation 𝘴𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘭𝘥 be “strain 𝘰𝘶𝘵 a gnat,” i.e., straining out gnats by pouring water through a cloth, not straining at (staring intently) at them. But a simple printing error was perpetuated down through the centuries and remains today in modern editions of the King James Bible.

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

Right-I could do a series of videos. But not a super long one, I think. I don’t really keep track of KJV errors. There’s not a lot of reason to do so.

@shrewdthewise2840

3 жыл бұрын

@@christopheryetzer Interesting explanation, but both the Bishop’s Bible and the Geneva say “strain *out* a gnat”. So if the KJV translators were simply using a rendering that had already gained currency, what version were they emulating? Since the KJV alone seems to use this rendering, wouldn’t it make much more sense that it was an oversight?

@shrewdthewise2840

3 жыл бұрын

@@christopheryetzer I was intrigued by your response so I gave you the benefit of the doubt and went over on original bibles.com to look at a facsimile of the Bishop’s Bible from 1568 (they didn’t have any from 1583, 1594, or 1602) since I don’t actually own a paper copy myself. Well, it also said “strain *out*” just like the digitized copy I saw before. Perhaps Dr. Norton is suggesting that they used “strain out” in early editions, briefly changed it in 1583 and 1594, and then, changed it back in 1602 (since you said the 1602 edition also reads “strained *out*”). That sound about right? I’m not trying to labor a point here, but your argument makes no sense. You’re insisting that the reading was found in earlier English Bibles, but the evidence I’m seeing just doesn’t back that up. Even Tyndale translated it “strained out.” So if it was intentional, then the KJV translators are literally alone in rendering it “strained at.” Personally, I believe the KJV translators were a lot smarter than intentionally giving us such a bizarre phrase.

This doesn’t hold water. The 1611 translators knew the words: SPIT, SPITTING and SPITTLE. (That’s all forms) They’re all rendered in the KJB. In fact, see Job 30:10. Here it seems the “expression of contempt” is rendered which they have allegedly missed.

Perhaps you need to do a video on this: Mistranslations in the KJV: 1. Leviticus 14:10 "meat" should be "grain" since flour is not a meat product. 2. Jeremiah 20:7 "deceived" should be "persuaded" since God does not de deceive His prophets. 3. Matthew 27:9-10 "Jeremy" (Jeremiah) should be "Zechariah" (Jeremiah never made such a prophecy although Zechariah did (Zech. 11:12-13). 4. Acts 12:4 "Easter" should be "Passover" (as it is translated 28 other times in the New Testament) otherwise a pagan word, unknown in the 1st century is used. 5. Acts 22:9 "heard" should be "under- stood" otherwise the verse would contradict Acts 9:7. 6. Romans 8:16, 26 "itself" should be "Him- self" otherwise the personality of the Holy Spirit is denied. 7. Acts 17:28 "offspring" should "be "crea- tion" otherwise the verse would contradict John 1:12. 8. John 20:17 "touch" should be "cling to" ortherwise it would contradict Luke 24:39. 9. Romans 5:9 - "God blessed for ever" should be "the eternally blessed God" other- wise the deity of Jesus is not correct- ly stated. 10. John 14:14 "ask anything" should be "ask ME anything" otherwise it is not clear we can pray to Jesus, denying His deity. 11. Numbers 23:22 "unicorn" should be "rhino- ceros" since unicorns do not exist. 12. Exodus 22:28 "revile the gods" should be "revile the judges" since non-existent "gods" cannot be reviled. 13. Joel 3:4 "Palestine" should be "Philistia" since the region was not known as "Pal- estine until after 129 A.D. 14. Matthew 10:4 "Canaanite" should be "Zeal- ot" since all of Jesus apostles were Jews and Canaanites are not Jews. 15. Romans 9:5 "who is over all" should be "who is God over all" otherwise the deity of Jesus is not clearly presented. 16. Zechariah 9:8 "any more" should be "at this time" otherwise it would be a false prophecy considering 70 AD. 17. Isaiah 5:25 "torn" should be "refuse" to re- flect the word in the Hebrew text.

@cfrost87

2 жыл бұрын

He has covered many of these in his videos -- false friends.

@Species-rj9si

2 жыл бұрын

@S.L. The 1611 King James Version was translated by the same translators who did the Old and New Testaments and was published that way. If you're going to use the King James Version only, you must include the Apocrypha, as the King James scholars translated it.

@Species-rj9si

2 жыл бұрын

@S.L. The King James translators were never forced. Whenever they were threatened with force, e.g. using earlier English translations, they refused. No one forced them to use the Apocrypha. That's fake history. It never happened. That was made that up by those who wanted to advance their heretical agenda.

@Species-rj9si

2 жыл бұрын

@S.L. I don't know who's been "educating" you, but they don't know real history. "There are none so blind as those who cannot see."

@khankorpofficial

2 ай бұрын

Romans 9:5 is correct though

Thank you, Mark. Wonderful, balanced teaching!

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

My pleasure!

I've spent many years in study of the Bible many versions and I find the KJV to be the best of the best but it's not perfect as you have said and you are right the complexity of translating is very very hard in some cases especially when the prophets were talking at times about things that would come to be 2500-3500 years later and the translators were trying to translate things written 2000 years back from them and about things 400 years in front of them. but even with this I think I've only found about 5-6 things that should be fixed. also the entire Bible is not by God only some of it is and a large part of it is only Inspired BY his words not sanctioned by or ordered by ONLY inspired by. no different than I'm a song writer and I was inspired by Michael Jackson. Never met him never spoke to him But I was inspired by Him. That is the meaning.

@markwardonwords

2 жыл бұрын

I believe in the inspiration of the Bible, both the Old and the New Testaments.

@ernestbailey6617

2 жыл бұрын

Satan agrees with you 100%

@WordMadeFlesh777

10 ай бұрын

All scripture is God breathed as it is stated or…it can all be not true and than one can start to play around with it like many do and slice it up and re define and hem and haw about what God was “really trying to say.” Either God really gave us a Rock and foundation to build on with scripture or He didn’t. Your going to have to make a decision. If Jesus is who he said he is than it’s all true, period. Jesus said the heaven and earth will pass away but my word will never pass away. So either Jesus was lying or He wasn’t..

@Rudmyster

10 ай бұрын

@@WordMadeFlesh777 The scripture you must consider and place in context is Matthew 5:17-19 pay close attention to the words. Jesus tells you here which books are of God = the books of the Law meaning the first 5 the. He says the prophets. Also in John he states John 21:24 that John will get the Revelation to write. The reason Jesus needed to make that statement in Mathew was because he was constantly correcting things written previously in other books like 1&2 kings like in Proverbs and Eccleasties and other books written not by prophets. Remember these were individual scrolls it was not until around the time of Constantine that they put them all together to make the codex called the Bible. Yes the word of God is in the Bible but the entire codex is not the word of God. Best to you take your time and you will start to see it.

@Rudmyster

10 ай бұрын

@@WordMadeFlesh777 the last point is all scriptures are not of god it says all are inspired by him inspiration doesn’t mean sanctioned by or told to write. Like a singer being inspired by another never ever to have met that person or told to write or sing. It was the power of the person that caused the inspiration. Some singers can’t sing and write garbage songs this will not change the fact that they were inspired by a great singer or song writer. This is the meaning of that scripture 2 Timothy 3:16 . See it’s meaning like I’m an artist I fine oil paint I’ve inspired many people to paint I don’t even know them they just saw my works and it caused them to want to try.. one must also learn linguistics in reading the Bible. Again best to you.

Mark, have you done a commentary on the KJ translators use of the word "replenish" in Genesis 1:28?

@markwardonwords

9 ай бұрын

No. I need to!

People used to listen to Job.

@markwardonwords

Жыл бұрын

My friend, is this a fifth interpretation?

With apocrypha

Ok, so you are correcting an error of an inerrant bible? Got it!

@markwardonwords

Ай бұрын

Please interact with the arguments made in the video.

Added words...

The view of the perpetual fallenness of all men necessarily would keep Christians from having and knowing a perfect text and translation. The view of the promise of God's granting interventionary knowledge would necessarily lead Christians to recognising His provision of a perfect text and translation.

@markwardonwords

3 жыл бұрын

This is all reasonable-it absolutely makes sense. God could have done it this way. But he didn't say that he did.

@bibleprotector

3 жыл бұрын

@@markwardonwords Actually, you say He didn't, as do the many like you. But then there are others who interpret Scriptures indicating He did. Philosophically also I think you couldn't accept that God did say it because your interpretation method or schema doesn't allow that God would be talking about English and a perfect translation, because primarily you interpret Scripture as belonging to its historical times with perhaps some references (e.g. eschatology) to future times. This would mean not accepting matters relating to prophecy or intervention or perfection to say Reformation or present times.