The "it's for kids" argument to me sounds like we look down at kids and treat them like trash, thinking they're too stupid to be able to do anything.

@SWad250

3 жыл бұрын

I see it come up a lot when critiques about Pokemon are being had.

@amconners

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed. Kids are smart enough to learn games! And like BB said, the fact that so many of us played KH1/KH2 as kids is proof that we don't need to make the game a brain-dead experience for kids to play it.

@JonathanRiverafrickinnice555

3 жыл бұрын

@@amconners There was a reason I kept going back to certain games even when sequels came out as a kid, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

@Antiformed

3 жыл бұрын

nowadays the media treats kids like they should be considered old enough to make all kinds of life altering decisions, and treats adults like they can't be trusted to do a single thing the media doesn't explicitly tell them is the right thing to do. Kids were able to beat NES games back in the day. What happened to our generation? To be honest I think the watering down of it all isn't even for kids anymore, it's directed at adult playtesters who just suck at the game

@veeshadow

3 жыл бұрын

@@amconners It's similar to sports, music, and other hobbies in general. Someone can be so expert playing an instrument but then can't handle crit mode for KH game... Video game is weirdly argued in negative way especially about game-addicting and treated like drugs.

"It's for kids" These guys were doing it with Pokemon and they're doing it with Kingdom Hearts too.

@dmas7749

3 жыл бұрын

at least pokemon is simple to begin with

@superlombax1561

2 жыл бұрын

And Pokemon is kinda like KH as well in that regard that it has hidden depth that you're likely not gonna use in the base game unless you go out of your way to do it. Though probably not as much.

@TimothyGod

6 ай бұрын

I mean sure, but game quality wise it could cause issues, see scarlet violet​@@superlombax1561

I don't like the, "It's for kids," argument either because it assumes kids are dumb and can't learn when that isn't the case at all. We all picked up KH1 and KH2 and learned the system by experimenting. When I was about 8 or 9 years old, my god brother owned KH1 and any time I went over to his house, I was playing it because I didn't own a PS2 and that shit was fun to me. I remember he had me fighting the 1st stage Ansem and we both had difficulty even beating his 2nd stage. It wasn't until my parents got me the PS2 slim and my own copy of KH1 where I started to learn the game from the ins and outs and found out why my god bro was having a tough time beating Ansem and why I had a more easier and better experience. He had the Oathkeeper Keyblade, a magic based keyblade and we were always using physical attacks, so we weren't using magic to the best of our abilities. He didn't really equip any combo modifiers to extend his combos or use negative combo, his accessories and armor was still from earlier levels(I wonder how he survived Riku/Ansem fight lmao) and we spent most of the times hitting Ansem instead of dodging and taking our times to read the attacks. In my copy of the game, I explored around to find other treasures so I could see if it could boost my stats and that's how I was even able to find Oblivion my first time playing after the Behemoth fight in Hollow Bastion and was my go to my first play through, got keyblades that were strong in physical attacks but also decent in magic as well(thanks Oblivion) and use combo modifiers and air combo modifiers to extend combos and use my magic more often so I can play from a distance and hopefully get that heal from Donald. Kids are not dumb and as long as a game is willing to help them understand how something works or they want to get experimental and see how something turns out just by trying it, then the kid learned and because they were willing to learn. Meaning the game didn’t have to be “dumbed down” because they are kids. Their minds are also still developing, so let them learn and have fun. I mean, we came out okay after Kingdom Hearts, right?.....Right?

@sobersplash6172

3 жыл бұрын

Like, kids can like complexity and difficulty

@GuyHeadset

3 жыл бұрын

Kids can definitely understand complexity and learn to overcome it. Also there's stuff like Axel obliterating Vexen to kill him, Sora stabbing himself, Xehanort stabbing himself to force himself into a teenager, Aqua being trapped in the ROD for like 10 years with one person to talk to for at least half of it? Some pretty dark stuff.

The one thing that bothers me about kingdom hearts accessibility is that you can't change difficulty mid run. That would help a lot in having people push themselves with a safety net to fall back on. If you're 10 hours into a critical mode run and discover it's not for you, you either have to play a game too hard for you or play 6-10 hours all over again. At least kh1 critical mix (and re:coded, and twewy) recognized this.

@Woodenfan

3 жыл бұрын

Tangentially related, but I wish God of War was like this too. Least they give you the option to play on Easy if you die too much, but I wish you could change the difficulty at will.

@SeeMyDolphin

3 жыл бұрын

Well, I feel like that's where the importance of the RPG elements of KH truly become important. Stuck on a really hard boss? Grind some levels. The fight becomes much easier, but your victory doesn't feel cheap, tainted, or unearned, because you still worked for that victory. It keeps the game accessible while remaining rewarding (and you could think of lvl1 playthroughs as on the extreme other end of this).

@CloneLoli

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah but having that removes a lot of the point of grinding since this series is an RPG series.

@Zostead

3 жыл бұрын

Gotta remember that KH is still partially an RPG and stats, buffs, debuffs etc come into play alot. Plus at least it aint like Devil May Cry 3 where you had to die a bunch to unlock easy mode. I feel like the way MOST KH games are set up they're made to be replayed multiple times but with new challenges or on new difficulties to challenge how well you can handle the Action ramping up while still keeping the RPG elements in tact to ensure the less skilled player still had something to lean on if they're struggling a bit. EDIT: It jus came to mind it's actually beneficial in some games to play on the hardest difficulty because that mode gives the player exclusive perks and abillities only available on that mode.

@lpfan4491

3 жыл бұрын

"is that you cannotchange difficulty midrun" We keep spending most our lives living in a recoded's paradise

As someone who's legally blind with really bad reflexes, even as a 30 year old it takes me a longer time to perceive and react to things in faster games. This is why I absolutely respect the balance of accessibility and complexity while NOT being a kid. This is also the reason why KH2 IS my favorite KH game. It being so easy but fun at a younger age meant I could enjoy it no problem without struggling for reasons I honestly can't really overcome. It also means that now I can (and have) attempt more complex strategies but it's still not TOO hard so I can ease into it.

I'm sorry to not comment on the video itself but please tell me you saw the forbidden KH3 tech that Trueblade Seeker found. It's amazing.

@rayfengchoo1063

3 жыл бұрын

He definitely did, he uploaded a few Twitter clips on bosses using that tech.

@Watch-Yisus

3 жыл бұрын

@@rayfengchoo1063 Nice

@Seriouspup

3 жыл бұрын

Forbidden lmao

I’m worried about the future of the series as well..

@harp-692

3 жыл бұрын

I already gave up. KH is dead for me. Its not going to change because of these crazy fans that defend ANYTHING with a KH title.

@Kingdom850

3 жыл бұрын

After Remind I'm not that worried. They have an idea of what people want.

@sobersplash6172

3 жыл бұрын

@@harp-692 IMO a really huge nail in the coffin for me was when they bungled Kairi’s character *again* Like holy shit, they really don’t know what to do with her outside of “she’s sora’s girlfriend” and “she needs to be rescued, *again* “

@BradsGonnaPlay

7 ай бұрын

@@harp-692 what??? You’re not excited about ANOTHER mobile game??? /sarcasm I’m so deflated with the direction of this series. We’ve gotten to the point where including Marvel and Star Wars in the games are the most important things to a lot of the new/young fans. I’m done too, I remember when this was a fantasy action RPG by Disney, not a commercial for their newest franchises.

These are really nice to listen to thanks!

People don't seem to realize that when you say "It's for Kids" to criticism regarding skimming the mechanics of a long running series like this one also implies that the games that we all played, you know, AS KIDS, wasn't for kids. We learned all the mechanics, figured out our own strats even without the internet to tell us and had a good time and now that we're older we can even appreciate those mechanics more.

@theheavenlyfb4071

3 жыл бұрын

People be like "HA HA Kingodm hearts is for kids! It's not complex at all!" while people sit there an laugh in BBS's command deck system, DDD spirit system and COM's card deck system. Just because you CAN steamroll in KH games doesn't mean it's optimal, and I think a lot of the idiots saying "it's just for kids" kinda forget that bit.

KH as a full-action game just wouldn't be KH. It's whole identity is how it merges action with RPG and how it's done amazingly well especially for the time when KH1/2 were still new. I too wish more games would experiment with this style of gameplay. FF7R comes to mind as an example of it done really well imo

@benedict6962

3 жыл бұрын

Squeenix has spent a lot of time and money trying all over the action rpg spectrum, and it shows. Monster Hunter is dipping its toes in as well(and they've got DmC experience to draw from), but a lot of companies just don't: they'd rather add more characters, more weapons, more equipment and modifiers. That's part of the reason I'm skeptical of games like Genshin Impact: are we entering an era of combat more integrated with the environment, or are we stopping kneedeep and filling the rest with grind?

@TheUltimateRare

3 жыл бұрын

yeah rpg is a big part of it. it's been apart of it forever. I wouldn't be into KH if it was only an action game. I wouldn't enjoy just beating up things without leveling up and stuff like that.. sounds boring without the rpg side.

@ZZAFRETZZ

3 жыл бұрын

FF7R is good but I don't see it being a good example of this since its very rpg heavy. The action game aspect of it is so minimal.

@Space_Australian

3 жыл бұрын

@@ZZAFRETZZ I disagree. Even on Normal, for the most part you have to learn when to guard, when to dodge, wait for safe openings to attack/heal, etc. If you mash square you're gonna have a bad time, which is basically the opposite experience of playing KH on standard or even proud.

@ZZAFRETZZ

3 жыл бұрын

@@Space_Australian I see what you mean. While evading and blocking attacks are important it doesn't matter as much as finding what element the enemy is weak to, and things like that. FF7R doesn't rely on the action game aspect so much. Which is not a bad thing. It's just doesn't make it a good example for your original point. While kh on the other hand heavily depends on blocking and evading more than anything else on harder difficulties and knowing when is the opening to strike your enemy. It's more reaction heavy. You don't need a certain materia to defeat a certain boss.

Original KH1 was the very first game I ever beat. Yeah I never really understood the more complex stuff but I was still able to play and have a great time. The whole "dumbing it down" because we think kids are helpless is also a major problem with Pokémon nowadays. Main game is completely unstimulating at this point and true rivals are a thing of the past because every character has to be your best friend/cheerleader.

I really enjoy just having these on in the background, they're very chill

I think what we need is something kinda close to FF7R for KH. Implementing a stagger system with elemental weaknesses to the KH action sequence could improve that complexity portion that you mention. Encouraging people to use elemental magic within their combo (or encouraging devs to implement it more fluidly ala KH2 and 3) would imo meet that halfway of KH simplicity and DMC/Bayonetta style of (Edit:) complex combo system It wouldn't be DMC style where specific button inputs and timing of input really matters (edit: for the most part; I think KH would benefit from SOME button input/timing complexity), but it will be more than just "punish, press x, hit revenge value, repeat". While the latter is already complex enough (for a KH game), i think spicing it up where you NEED to use elemental weaknesses or you NEED to stagger to really deal alot of damage (ala FF13/kind of FF7R) would promote more experimental gameplay from players but still be simple enough for accessibility would be great. I'm not exactly sure how this can be implemented, but this is just my thoughts.

@Tsyuait

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure that implementing a stagger system is the way to go. That would be forcing the skill floor higher, but not the skill ceiling. People who are already skilled and using magic in combos regularly wouldn't have a problem adjusting, it would just force people who weren't using them to use them. It doesn't give the higher skilled players new things to play with or try, and just gives lower skilled players a harder time. See reboot DmC which had enemies that could only be hit by certain types of weapons (The DE made so you could at least hit them, but not stagger but that was only a marginal improvement). While this in a way forced the player to use different weapons, In this case it could be argued that those enemies instead lowered the skill ceiling because they limited the available options that the player could play with. I have a lot more baggage with stagger because of other things, but the main point is that in a game where you have a variety of options, stagger systems with a defined specific method of activating them narrow what you can and should do, rather than expand. Sure, maybe a stagger system might prompt people to try and incorporate magic more, or it might make them even more cautious with magic and save it for when they encounter enemies they need magic for, rather than thinking to use it for general situations. Magic has a potential to become the "I need it to stagger these enemies", option instead of the "I need a different tool here option".

@dmas7749

3 жыл бұрын

there's a few things 7R did that i'm not a fan of - healing is too cheap, not as ridiculous as old square but there are too many fights where you can just spam heal through and can put off people using the more offensive and fun magic - dodge has no i-frames, making it only useful as an animation cancel, and you can die to guard chip damage even if the attack is weak - giving the bosses tons of health and giving the bosses mid-fight unskippable cutscenes to feel more 'cinematic' which is exactly the sort of thing i DON'T want in my action games/action RPGs, fights like hell house just fucking drag and at worst put me off the game altogether

@Kingdom850

3 жыл бұрын

@@dmas7749 The dodge not having i frames isn't a bad thing. It's intended to work like an actual "get the hell out of the way" move, not an i frame abuse move like it works in some KH games.

@dmas7749

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kingdom850 BbS is certainly too far in the other direction, ideally it would be like KH1; only have I-frames at the very start, requiring almost perfect timing, not something you can abuse

@dmas7749

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tsyuait i knew there was something about the stagger mechanic that was off-putting but couldn't put it into words

Really enjoying the series my guy!

How about a KH Talks over the superbosses in the series

The "its for kids" argument doesn't even work very well for KH3 since the game is fairly easy to get lost in as it is so open world in 3 dimensions. I'm 23 and in a world like Toy Box it was a little annoying to traverse especially since I looked away during the cutscene that told you to head towards the bounce house (chasing after the UFO or something). This isn't to say children can't handle something like this, but the world design is a huge difference compared to how absurdly linear kh2 or bbs is.

good job bb! awesome vid as always

I think Hades fits in that middle zone too. Super inviting right from the start, and gets progressively more fun the more you play around with it

Most big title video games are meant for audiences of all ages and skill levels. The good video games have that depth you’re talking about

I liked the PowerPoint and your final mix joke

I'm 13 and currently playing through KH2FM, and I think it's the perfect level of complexity and accessibility. The combat is so simple to understand to the point where I destroyed everh early and mid game fight, but now I've beat Data Org and am doing Lingering Will, and have found all the little nooks and crannies in the combat system. It's exceptionally satisfying to figure out all these things, like how Last Arcanum can extend your combo, and testing out different finishers to figure out that I actually like Explosion, but you can play the entire game not doing any of these things still.

KH2: •Limits costs entire MP meter, however during MP charge the Drive gauge fills quicker. • Each Summon is unique, but Summons and Drive Forms are linked to the same Drive gauge, so choose wisely. • Spamming Drive Forms is ill-advised, although with skill Anti-Sora can be useful. 11 year old me: "In other words, the game is balanced- neat." KH3: "Team Attacks, Form Changes, Keyblade Transformations, Attraction Flows have no consequence here- oh, and don't forget your Kupo coin!" 24 year old me: *stares at 11 year old me* "You still got that copy of KH2?"

@1BadAssArchAngelvs14

3 жыл бұрын

kingdom hearts 3 form changes makes sense since you can store forms and combo cancel into them, kingdom hearts 3 you can item cancel forms, branch combos, jump cancel combos. Kingdom hearts 3 form changes and keyblade transformation has different mechanics tied to them like Counter Shield has a 360 guard that can block DM's. Critical mode has an ability that gets you a 100% chance to get a key form.

@camharkness

3 жыл бұрын

@@1BadAssArchAngelvs14 no no, kh3 did nothing right remember?

@1BadAssArchAngelvs14

3 жыл бұрын

@@camharkness but it all comes down to experimenting people are still experimenting with KH3 combat that alone does not make it bad.KH2 combat experimenting is over now there is nothing new to find in KH3 people are finding new ways to use its new combat system every day that alone shows dedication is involved.

@camharkness

3 жыл бұрын

@@1BadAssArchAngelvs14 I waz being sarcastic. Because people constantly act like kh3 did nothing right at all.

When I first played KH2 I was 9 years old and I had a great time, until I got to the second battle with Demyx was when I discovered the Limits and only then could I defeat him. When I turned 12 I discovered all the abilities that were unlocked by leveling up the fusions, the extra limits, certain abilities such as the negative combo with box, it was when I saw another way to enjoy Kingdom hearts 2 and my experience improved until I could play KH2FM .

Imo for a game to be accessible but still complex, just have the base game be beatable by using the base mechanics that the game teaches you about, and have the 100% completion require learning the hidden tricks behind those mechanics. For example, you can fairly easily beat KH1's main story by mashing X and using cure, but it'll take you a while. To get Speedster, you'll have to learn to be more efficient but it's still fairly simple if you know your way around the worlds. But then you get to the post game grind for 100%, and stuff like Pink Agaricus, Phantom, Sephiroth, and Sniperwilds will force you to actually learn the game. And after you've learned it, you can go back and beat the game quicker and better. That's how you design an accessible yet complex game: make it beatable for newcomers, but install a learning curve for the people who really want to go for gold. But always remember at least 1 boss in the main story at the beginning of the late game that actually requires a higher skill level so that the newcomers don't get bored. In KH1 it's Riku-Ansem, KH2 it's Roxas, and KH3 it's Aqua AS RIKU cuz Sora is bonkers powerful

I agree with you, but I would really like to make it clear that I did NOT have an easy time with KH when I was a kid. Took me months to beat the game the first time on beginner. I still agree that KH has always been very accessible, just that KH 1 was definitely a lot harder on it’s easiest difficulty than the other game son the series

i feel the kid to adult comparison should be different after seeing older people just get destroyed. something like - a game easy to get into for newcomers, enjoyable enough to play casually, and with an easily noticeable view to improve for the experience.

@Bl00dyBizkitz More complexity is generally better. However, I think people misunderstand some things. It’s complexity in meaningful options that matters, not complexity in the button inputs needed to execute those options. There should only be as many distinct button inputs as there are meaningful options to accommodate (and those should be as simple & intuitive as possible), any more input complexity than that is wasteful. Also, difficulty does matter, but a game being harder does not automatically make it more complex or deep. It’s not so much that a game needs to be as hard as possible, so much as the difficulty should be as adjustable as possible, so that it can be centered to target its audience of choice. Anyway, that’s my 2 cents!

You should check out Odin Sphere Leifthrasir. It's a 2D beat 'em up Action RPG with gorgeous artwork. I feel is an Action/RPG game that strikes a pretty good balance like you affirm KH2FM does. It's actually a remaster of a PS2 title that changes some stuff but makes the game play entirely differently. Its core mechanic are pretty simple. Square for melee, Circle for special Skills, Triangle opens Inventory for Potions that heal, apply buffs or do AOE damage while stopping the action to let the player breath and choose a potion for the situation they're in. You level up, equip accesories that give you bonuses, gains skill over time or through exploration and can power them up. Special Skills use either of 2 gauges that regenerate differently: one that regenerate over time but are kinda of weak, and one that needs to be regenerated with potions/drops from enemies and are stronger. Special Skills can be accessed through a menu wih L1 (that also stops the combat) but can be assigned command shorcuts (Circle; Foward+Circle, Down+Cicle, so on). The game is pretty chill and fun to play and has a pretty good story. But here's the kicker. Because it's 2D you can assign shortcuts that are fighting game-like: 214+Circle, 236+Circle, 632+Circle, even assign them to Square like 236+Square. I think you can assign every skill a character has to a command so there's no real need to go to the menu. And even the fact that it uses gauges can be circunvented w/ potions that give you unlimited usage for a time. Pretty much allowing you to go full Devil may Cry. Also the game has 5 campaing w/ different characters that have their own quirks and playstyles giving you a lot of options.

Can you make one of these that goes all in on KH3’s new abilities and combat system?

@camharkness

3 жыл бұрын

I kinda feel like it would be 2 slides of what kh3 did good, and then the rest is kh2 or kh1. He's done it before.

Edit: oh by the way, great insights as always, keep it going. I'd like to hear your pitch for what you'd do with a kingdom hearts game if you got your hands on it (from a mechanics standpoint) If I were in charge of the kh series, I'd probably go full kh2, with vastly chunkier enemies in late game to handle the levels the player would reach by that time. I'd push platforming really hard, I'd even incorporate it into the boss fights (kh3s xehanort as an example, in the tower thingy). I'd go so far as to make each world similar in design to a dark souls level, with pathways that loop around and reconnect to a central hub area, and lastly id make sure to have a mirage arena type deal that lets you not only rebattle every enemy in the game, participate in arena challenges, but also create your own custom battle scenarios, and by that I mean let you drop whatever enemies you want to fight into a room and you do you. You wanna fight xigbar, xaldin, and xion all at the same time with 16x hp? Do it.

I always felt like the excuse "this was made for kids" was foolish because even if it were made to played by children. So many factors have to go into its development to make it ENGAGING. That includes having a wealth of complexity in a video game that on the surface seems very simple. If anything I think that's a great balance. Being able to satisfy both camps while still keeping its integrity is dope. Most games don't do that anymore.

The whole thing of, easy for kids to get into but high skill ceiling is kinda the thing that people always say is great about Pixar movies. easy and fun for kids, but there's always more there for the adults.

I finished KH1 for the first time when I was 16 and I got stuck in halloween town on that playthrough lmao

Base KH3 was a game that needed the most a Final Mix version with tweaked/patched things like base kh2 had, it could be a kh2fm contender or at least second, but for w/e reason they decided not to touch it, truly a shame. Great video BB, keep it up.

@nahnah390

3 жыл бұрын

Probably because the whole FM thing isn't exactly as easy to get away with anymore, especially since DLC is so much easier to do. It's hard to justify selling a whole game again with an update.

@NarDarkk

3 жыл бұрын

@@nahnah390 I know, and its better Dlc for the customer, but the base game needed some form of patching/ultimate edition. Oh and its easy to get away with it (Persona 5 Royal, every ultimate goty edition whatever, etc)

@nahnah390

3 жыл бұрын

@@NarDarkk I can agree to a point, but personally I would have preferred having just a lot more dlc in general. Maybe some free and with small new things and some just... bigger stuff that costs money.

Sadly many games move toward the side of over simplification, there is a bigger audience there and more money to be made, its a similar thing with writing and movies as well.

8:12 If people bothered to look at some games like Naruto Storm the same way But hey, IP makes and breaks the shit we'd bother to put into discovering tech in the first place. This is why Smash Melee/DX had so much grassroots imho as one of the non-conventional "not as complex at face value" type of games to have the fanbase it does today in regards to Smash in general. And people discover tech for KH likely cause well, the IPs in it. People recognize the shit inside of it and bother to give it the light of day.

Something off topic, but I wonder how would kh look with a competent pvp mode that isn't a complete mess

Buns commenting on your videos you are now two degrees of seperation from woolievs

I think smash bros is the ultimate accessible game with a super high skill ceiling. Direction plus button... Go. But yet , there's a lot of depth for those who chose to dig.

come to brazil

@anxjos

3 жыл бұрын

Jokes on you I already live in Brazil (seriously this is not a joke)

Great video! I agree with basically everything you said, but I feel like in the end there when commenting on KH3 ReMind, you were confusing complexity with difficulty and game feel. I don't mean to downplay ReMind because I think it's a great DLC (well, Limitcut was at any rate...), I don't think it did much in terms of making KH3 more complex or deep. Yes, the new abilities dramatically improved the feel of the combos and yes, the new bosses are outstanding and difficult, but in terms of actual complexity, depth and the variety of your options, very little was improved as far as I can see. Links are still braindead and in the bosses only useful for cheesing through DMs. Team attacks and attractions were outright removed from the equation instead of being improved upon. Shotlocks are still mostly interchangeable, as are most spells and keyblade forms (with only a few outliers like Countershield). The bosses are a great test of your defensive options, but when it comes to attacking back, unless you're going for some crazy AoE fire or countershield strats, it more often than not boils down to mashing X with your form of choice until the boss's RV fills up. Contrasted with all the crazy shit you can do in KH2, it's like night and day. I know everyone's sick to death with Dark Souls comparisons, but it's a very applicable game here because Souls games also have great game feel and are generally hard games (even if you disagree on their difficulty, let's not get into that debate and for the sake of argument, just assume they're hard). Yet Souls games are on no metric complex action games, for the most part they also boil down to having a good set of defensive options, but not much beyond that. There are basically no meaningful combos or even synergy between your tools (not saying there should be, I'm just pointing out their lack of complexity in game mechanics, not every game needs to be complex). I'm also not saying that ReMind is Dark Souls, merely that there are other examples of difficult games with good game feel that aren't necessarily complex.

I must have been a dumb kid cause I couldn’t beat it. I put the game down for a while and only was able to beat it when I tried again in middle school. Still, I never wanted the game to be easier

KH already fall in Simple Game with BBS and especially DDD, I mean uh Balloon ?

Really good video but I think you were a bit harsh on base kh3 complexity while its by no means as complex as 2fm its not nearly as simple as action games like musous. I think having it beetwen simple action games and 2fm is more appropriate as while getting your resources is more simple, the way you utilize them still has a decent bit of depht to it. While Links are busted I dont think a game having one dominant mechanic completely erases the games more complex elements.

everywhere i go i see people talk about core a gaming.

Remind is the savior

Playing devils advocate, I think it’s important to remember that kh doesn’t exist in a vacuum. The culture surrounding gaming affects it. Kids are smart and are capable of having fun with more challenging games, but it may no longer hold their attention or be fun. Kids have access to so many different games and forms of entertainment that something like kh2 won’t be as captivating because of the challenge. I’m sure many of the people who grew up with the originals didn’t have as many options as kids nowadays so they were more patient. Who’s to say they will stay interested in the series when they’re never grabbed by what they’ve played because they hit a wall. It doesn’t matter whether they could overcome that wall. I loved mega man 2 on wii virtual console when I was young, but I never progressed in it and never felt the need to because I had other stuff to play. I wasn’t as invested in it as I could have been if it was easier. Another argument for kh3 is that it needed to be different and evolve. It needed to experiment. As much as people say “change for the sake of change is bad”, they wouldn’t want the same game over and over. New ideas and mechanics draw people in and create excitement. To me it doesn’t matter that those new ideas make the game easier or worse as long as they are interesting. Chain of memories and birth by sleep are two of my favorite spinoffs because of how they change things even if I don’t like them as much as kh2. I will always love kh2, but I feel that people take a lot of what kh3 does for granted because of that love. I love hard games like super meat boy, but I also love easy games like Klanoa. It’s the heart that matters more than what’s technically “good”, and I find it hard to argue that kh3 doesn’t have heart despite the writing and gameplay being “worse”.

@Bl00dyBizkitz

3 жыл бұрын

Well frankly, KH2 was never captivating cause of the challenge, it was very easy. But it was enjoyable for a lot of other reasons, and it never felt the need to "dumb things down" so that kids could find enjoyment. I suppose that's the heart of what I'm getting at. You can experiment and do things differently, that's totally fine, but if you're end result lowers the skill ceiling and lowers complexity because we need to "think of the kids", I think that's a disservice to all parties involved.

Lol I’m early here for once

its for kids... yes its basic and easy to understand the mechanics and still be able to have fun by just mashing buttons... but if the combat doesnt have depths, when you get older and want to go back and play your favorite game as a kid... you feel empty and lackluster, hate yourself for why you liked the game in the first place... it conflicts your imagination of having fun and being able to do cool things is not that interesting in your eyes when you notice how easy they are to replicate... its not wrong having an easy accesable flashy combos with big explosions and long cutscenes but its also fun to be able to control your character

Being made for kids is a pretty stupid idea because giving them a consistant world to experience just makes their idea of how stuff works consistant. Stuff like KH3 where stuff makes no sense without datamines just brings back the myth-culture where people make up stuff because that is how they experienced it. And in the end, nobody is actually happy because stuff is just not true. Also, if we are supposed to do the simple approach, recoded is just a better idea to go for(yeah, my recodedriding comes back). It has one combo that enver really changes and it only spans one attackbutton. It is mechanically very shallow at its core, especially compared to kh2. However, the depth comes from the potential the gamesystem is meant for. Mixing in the commands, dodging and counteracting enemymoves. Blocking and searching openings. They did some oopsies with the gamedesign, but with some more effort, it could be the ideal framework for overly simple KH.

@reddodeado301

3 жыл бұрын

Re:Coded also has 2 more different attack types. 2 Keyblades have Impact Arts (Olympia and Metal Chocobo), which makes your attacks slower but more powerful (like Terra, except it's actually worth using since enemies stagger), and 2 Keyblades with Sonic Arts (3 Wishes and Lionheart), which makes you do a lot of fast multihit attacks, with the trade-off being that they're individually weak.

The “it’s for kids” argument is stupid, difficulty options exist for a reason, and besides kids aren’t as stupid as a lot of game devs seem to think they are.

Minecraft was made for kids and its one of the most complex, intricate games ever made.

"It's for kids" yes & no it have some creepy,deep, and some adult stuff in the series like fuck for fuck sake sora kills himself in the first game

It's a proven fact that every game that's ever been released majority of players will never beat it. The average clear percentage of any given game is around 30%... Meaning majority of players have never beaten KH1. That's just for any single game. A series? I see people skipping games like it's nothing despite the fact they're exclusively playing just for lore and cutscenes. If I were to put a guess on how many players actually played and completed every KH game it's like 1%. That's so wild you would suggest Bayonetta is easier than Devil May Cry. It's objectively harder than DMC. I'm a huge Devil May Cry fan. Literally all I played on PS2 after I completed Kingdom Hearts. KH3 is more complex than about 2/3 of the series... Such a wild discussion when you clearly never played these games. You're just saying buzzwords you picked up when talking about the game on a casual level with other fans. You have no idea how simple these games can be. Devil May Cry 1 has two melee weapons and Devil Trigger (His Drive Form) just enchances his attacks. Only two exclusive moves and they're incredibly niche to use because of how much damage a normal combo does. It rewards clean play a lot more than styling believe it or not. Often times your best damaging move isn't even a combo. Usually a heavily charged finisher that deletes their entire health bar. I would honestly put KH1/2/3 ahead in complexity for most DMC games. Even then the more complex DMC games? They're all about simplifying and streamlining it more for a wider audience. How can you look at V then unironically think KH3 Sora is less? These criticisms are lacking in actual depth because of your extremely limited scope on Action Games. I have no idea why you'd do an Aqua playthrough for KH2 when you can learn so much by playing other action games.

One of the few videos where I have no clue what you're talking about and can't relate to any of it. I like the rest of your stuff though lol.

Honestly that's my biggest problem about a lot of game sequels today especially KH3 Why make a games combat system like kingdom hearts more simple for new audiences when it was already easy to pick up and play since the first game yet still complex

Personally I think kingdom hearts has depth through out most of the games kh3 is that sorta exception where I think the depth or i suppose width in this case as it feels like a salt flat as vast as an ocean but as deep as a puddle

Dammit youtube where was the notification??? But yeah "it's for kids" is apologist bullshit. And disproven by the fact that Avatar TLA exists and is better than 99% of netflix. Also DMC5 on normal was pretty accessible. Until naked urizen/vergil at least but he's the final boss. I'd say it starts at kh2 proud and ends at kh3 critical keyblade graveyard.

I'm sorry to be abrasive here, but I cannot jive with you implying that KH3 is somehow more "casualized" than KH2FM, and that it did not have anything noteworthy compared to the latter. Base KH3 was definitely was less elegantly designed, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Osaka Team designed it with "braindead children" in mind. KH3 still had some interesting mechanics at the end of the day, some ideas were even leveraged upon in ReMind's Limit Cut. This is also why I don't think that ReMind was this revolutionary add-on that added way more depth to KH3; It made gameplay way smoother with the new abilities and added much-needed content, but a lot of the underlying depth in the mechanics (or I guess the lack thereof is some cases) still remains the same. Sorry if it seems like I am overthinking here. I would further elaborate on what I see in KH3 that had room for potential, but I guess the point I am trying to get at here is how I am kinda annoyed KH2FM is put up on a pedestal to the detriment of pointing out room for improvement in this series (Keep in mind here that I am not saying KH fans think KH2FM is this flawless masterpiece. It's just that whenever there's gameplay discussion of Kingdom Hearts, people never actually put out concrete suggestions on how to improve the gameplay and would rather repeat "KH3 bad", "where's Tokyo team", "Ugghh the combat is so floaty' over and over again. All while using KH2FM as an example to strive to while ignoring other great action games out there, many of which have mechanics that would be extremely welcome in Kingdom Hearts.

@TheGreatAwsomness2

3 жыл бұрын

did you watch his other videos?

@harp-692

3 жыл бұрын

How can you not see that KH3 is really easy? Even the conversations in KH3 were really ez, I was surprised how braindead everyone is. Its literally made for children, thats why it doesnt have a good gameplay. its just flashy, thats what kids like. its funny how you try to sound smart but you dont even get the point...

@rayfengchoo1063

3 жыл бұрын

@ArdinTube @Daniel Tabak Do you mean these videos: kzread.info/dash/bejne/nX6DrcmlerGnhs4.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/nHWX08GRn7bHo7g.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/dYmAss6HYaSamrw.html If so, then yeah I have watched them. Keep in mind that actually agree with a lot of Bl00dy's complaints on KH3 combat: How a lot of the combos pre ReMind tend to be pretty sluggish (and still is even to this day); Unnecessary RNG when it comes to Formchanges and Grand Magic (Even worse when you are not playing on Critical Mode to have Critical Converter); A lot of the Formchanges being samey in how they give Sora giant hitboxes everywhere while also gluing him to enemies. With how of a mess KH3's mechanics are put together, the average player isn't going to have to remotely think during combat; Every annoyance leads to the play of spamming Fire/Thunder & AOE Links the path of least resistance, which is also conveniently the "strategy" with the most reward. I guess what I am trying to say here can be summed up into two points. The first being that I feel like people are unnecessarily reductive on KH3 overall depth of mechanics. The issues KH3 has are more of an issue of a lack of elegant design (Situation Commands RNG, not using a Drive gauge to activate Formchanges etc.) rather than Osaka Team not thinking about depth. For example, A lot of people tend to summarize KH3's combat options as "just dealing AOE damage"; Even if KH3 doesn't have a very good complexity-to-depth ratio with how samey every Formchange & Links are, such a comment is just blatantly untrue. If everything in KH3 "just deals damage", such combo videos of KH3 would simply be impossible (kzread.info/dash/bejne/Y42amMmQfpvgctI.html | kzread.info/dash/bejne/h2qHt7enhsqraaQ.html | kzread.info/dash/bejne/fneTuNKDd5ipkZs.html). KH3 in fact has a wealth of launchers and range moves that keep enemies in a juggle state; I'm certainly not seeing "only damage". Or, to use another example, the way people like to summarize the utility of KH3 magic. Everyone keeps saying every magic in KH3 is just a projectile, yet I can't help but disagree: Aero not only can be used to suspend enemies in the air, but also can be used to as a mini Magnet in grouping enemies together; Thunder opens up distant enemies for Airstepping, and when used as a finisher in a combo chain, spikes enemies to the ground; Water gives Sora brief invincibility frames to every attack (including unblockables), which not only acts as an all-around defensive option but also allows for some openings to bosses: twitter.com/Number15Tails/status/1310430055030497280?s=20; Lastly, Blizzard has the innate ability to freeze regular enemies (though sadly not on Nobodies for some reason), which helps in certain tight situations: kzread.info/dash/bejne/Y22p0pqaqNCdptY.html (This effect is just how Blizzard affects the Port Royal pirate enemies in KH2, which was a well-praised decision. KH3 applied said effect to the entire game and yet somehow no one will point this out?). The only offender in my eyes is Fire, with it deserving the criticism of "just dealing damage". I also want to mention how any Magic spell used at the end of a combo chain becomes a launcher that does not deal RV: twitter.com/TruebladeSeeker/status/1183591777074176001?s=20. Sure, these combos probably don't feel as good to do compared to other action games, not to mention them probably being easy due to Sora's convenient magnetism to enemies. Sure, Links are still just braindead AOE damage that outclasses every Magic spell. However, I would never say that KH3 "has no depth", at least on a functional level. Besides, if people really want to be harsh in saying that such maneuvers are sub-optimal or unnecessary in KH3; That they want to bash KH3 for being an unbalanced mess that requires little thought with certain strategies (Which is fair), then I don't see why KH2 isn't treated with the same level of scrutiny; When KH2 can easily be "solved" with braindead strategies too: kzread.info/dash/bejne/lYea0chtg9rPlZc.html

@rayfengchoo1063

3 жыл бұрын

The second point, and probably the one I want to emphasize the most, is how many KH fans treat 2FM as this pinnacle of action games or even action RPGs and keep using it as a point of reference to point how they want Kingdom Hearts' combat to be when they could use other action games as better points of reference for improvement. One example would be whenever the topic of Formchanges in KH3 comes up. Many people like to say Drive Forms had more varitey than Formchanges (which to be fair, are pretty samey) and wanted KH3 to implement them, yet I can't help but disagree; If I am going to be honest I don't think Drive Forms were all that special from each other to be honest, not to mention them being not balanced well: Valor Form, with how you are locked out of guarding and magic, is just a STRAIGHT downgrade to even base Sora (Also its Omega Finale skill that allows you use a finisher instantly isn't that good with how lackluster the range of Valor Form's finisher is; I would unironically say that KH3 gave Omega Finale more use by slapping it to the Hyper Hammer formchange and allowing you to use the hammer's AOE ground finisher immediately, which was very useful since said finisher launches all surrounding opponents: twitter.com/JeffreyCoombs1/status/1176199182421561344?s=20; Wisdom Form focus on range attacks and being able to move while using Magic was nice, but said "zoning" archetype was also fulfilled with the Arrowguns formchange quite well; Master form's focus on aerial combos is nice, but it's just that.....more combos. Sora in KH3 can already pull off aerial combos effortlessly by default. (Not to mention its exclusive Endless Magic skill is also in KH3 www.khwiki.com/Endless_Magic); Lastly, and the most egregious of all, Final Form straight up outclasses both Wisdom and Master form in the "great Melee and Magic damage" department. Sure, it costs more Drive gauge, but with how well-balanced damage output is in KH2, not to mention with the existence of Drive recovery items, I don't think you really had to think about meter management; Not when a player can straight up melt half a boss' health bar with spamming Firaga non-stop throughout the Final Form's duration (And people lambast KH3 for being "Fire Spam". That's fair, but where's the consistency in criticism?). I also can't help but think it is hypocritical to criticize KH3's Formchanges for just making combos flashier and have more AOE but not KH2 when Final, Master, and even Wisdom form do just that.......they made your combo chains more flashy and have slightly more AOE, and your magic have way more AOE range. The reason I keep harping on this is because I feel that KH fans could look to other action games for sources of inspiration, instead of continuously praising 2FM and stagnating the discussion of combat. In fact, I'll try to do that right now: I think future Kingdom Hearts games can look to an action game classic by PlatinumGames, Bayonetta for improvement. A common complaint in KH3 is that the "musou" style level of enemy encounters was intolerable to the point where enemies will snipe you from far away. While such mob encounter design may seem like bad design on paper, Bayonetta had a lot of design decisions that made said mob encounters work. Not only are combos snappy and quick, the game's central mechanic, Dodge Offset, allowed the player to continue with their combo chains on an enemy while dodging incoming attacks from other enemies. Enemies in Bayonetta try to bum rush and snipe from a distance at you all the time, yet no player will complain about it simply because the game was built around it; I think it would benefit Kingdom Hearts to implement a variation of Dodge Offset. Not to mention this is just one lesson Kingdom Hearts can take from Bayonetta. Airstep in KH3 is very similar to a move in Bayonetta called Umbran Spear in that they both teleport the player to a targeted enemy instantly. Bayonetta made such a technique more intuitive to use by just making its input double-tapping the lock-on button, not to mention adding a cost to it to balance it out, something the design of Airstep in Kingdom Hearts can learn from. KH3 Formchanges can be modified to resemble Bayonetta's weapons more to add more utility to the former. In fact, KH3's Blizzard Claws formchange can just take inspiration from Bayonetta's ice weapon in order to improve it; Make Blizzard Claws work like it Bayonetta where every hit adds a "freeze" value to an enemy; Once the "freeze" gauge is filled, the enemy is frozen. And this is just one example KH fans can use to suggest desired changes to the combat. Especially when KH3 even has a few mechanics that has parallels to other action games and has potential to be developed; Two of them being Stagger Endurance (A set value of Super Armor a boss has that must be depleted before it can be staggered) and the Armor phase certain bosses have (A DM-sort of phase where certain bosses become more powerful, deplete the Armor gauge and you can end the bosses' DM early). Both of these mechanics straight up exist in Tales, another long-running action-RPG series that has been making great action combat for quite a while (Relevant since my pfp is a character from Tales). Tales' parallel to Stagger Endurance is Penetrate/Iron Stance, where bosses get a set amount of Super Armor before they can be staggered. In Tales, you may want to consider what moves you want to use to whittle down bosses' Iron Stance before you start a combo; Use long-range moves from afar, multi-hit moves, moves that cross-up bosses while avoiding their frontal attacks. Meanwhile, Tales' parallel to DM phases is Overlimit, a phase some bosses will enter after a while where they cannot be staggered and will try to land their unguardable super moves on you. You can avoid them during this phase or use certain moves to stun them and drag the duration of Overlimit out. If Kingdom Hearts take inspirations from Tales, like having forms focused on multi-hit attacks that whittle down Super Armor, I can see future games having more depth. I just wish KH fans will actually try to make their critique more substantial; Give actual concrete suggestions on how to improve Osaka Team's and Kingdom Hearts' shortcomings (I guess to be fair they do that well enough, but I certainly think the level of discussion could stand to improve more, rather than saying KH2 is the best and calling it a day. Do you really think certain fans' impressions on how hardcore KH fans just want every KH game to be KH2 is unwarranted when KH2 praise keeps dominating the discussion?)

@Bl00dyBizkitz

3 жыл бұрын

I dont think KH3 is for "brain dead children" or anything like that, but its design definitely lowers the skill ceiling and makes it less complex.

uh MGR in the complex scale? I thought ppl considered it an easy game

@anxjos

3 жыл бұрын

I hadnt played it but iirc its from platinum games so I assume it has some depth

@megasoniczxx

3 жыл бұрын

People who play action games religiously think its an easy game but there were a lot of people who didn't even know how to parry until the monsoon fight.

@neobahumuth6

3 жыл бұрын

@@megasoniczxx that's me! I learned in that fight XD, well tbf I knew that you could but was ass at it

@megasoniczxx

3 жыл бұрын

@@neobahumuth6 Yeah, looking back, I think the only reason I knew how to do it as well as I did was because I played the demo of the game which actually did a better job of explaining how to parry than the game itself did so I don't blame anyone for not knowing how to.

Love how these idiots always excuse lazy products if they're designed for kids like why should the youth of today be given crap? We were lucky to have all kinds of content that actually challenged us, yet it's okay NOW because we're older? Ridiculous, "It's for kids" is a shallow argument for people who can't be arsed to put in the work to make the content good in the first place. If anyone says "oh it's just for kids" they've lost the right to be taken seriously.

I think I'm more angry at the comment section than the video... No, I'm most angry at Nomura. In order to appease complainers that KH3 was too easy, he added the hardest gauntlet that I ever had the displeasure of attempting (and epically failing). I would literally kill myself in frustration long before ever beating a single KH3 Data Battle...and I beat KH2's data battles. I'm a completionist in my soul and knowing that there's a challenge in a game I love that I PHYSICALLY can't beat...it pisses me off. You talk of accessibility...for half a second, and then dismiss it as the big bad boogeyman that games should mostly stay away from. But in my mind...if you choose to play Beginner mode (which I didn't but I have reasons for my assumptions), if you CHOOSE that, then the difficulty for the ENTIRE game should be catered to beginners. The KH3 data battles don't do this. They are epically hard at Critical and at Standard (again, I didn't play Beginner but I assume it's no better). What's the point of even making the game accessible at all if you're about to give BEGINNERS such an epic middle finger at the very end? Tell this to me. Explain this to me. Oh gaming gods, tell me why the peasants must suffer so for your amusement?

@Bl00dyBizkitz

3 жыл бұрын

Nah I don't have any problem with accessibility. Only when it bogs down the game and lowers the skill ceiling. That's when it becomes a problem.

@2bitbyte

3 жыл бұрын

@@Bl00dyBizkitz I guess that's fair but it's a hard balance to strike. Like, AT LEAST I can use the cheap af one-hit-kill EZ code to see the rest of the story in Re-Mind, but I don't feel like story should be put behind something that hard to begin with, things that difficult should probably be entirely optional, for people who actually want that challenge.

@Bl00dyBizkitz

3 жыл бұрын

I agree. The fact that EZ codes exist make it hard for me to complain about, they clearly put them in the game so people could still witness all the story stuff.

@veeshadow

3 жыл бұрын

@@2bitbyte KH2 need to clear data battles for crowns if you want secret ending, that's not really different than KH3. It's just KH3 placed superboss after you clear main scenario, made you think it's mandatory for story reason.. At least KH games had obvious locations for them. If you play Final Fantasy X or XII, you can unlock superboss without you realize it and you come to their map unprepared. Some maps are blocked if you don't pick items on their first visit, creating pseudo-missable contents due to superboss blocking said map...

@2bitbyte

3 жыл бұрын

@@veeshadow The secret ending is a teaser, not so much part of the story (at least in the case of earlier games). There's actually another cutscene in Radiant Garden before even moving on to Yozora. Just because it isn't much doesn't mean players don't want to eventually get to it...especially after spending an extra what, 30$ for the DLC? It isn't like KH2 and you got 10+ worlds of content in the base game before you even get to the Data Battles. Just for the record, though, I did beat KH2's data battles. Never wanna do it again, though, and I think that's part of why I can't bear to struggle through KH3's that feel even harder to me.

I think base kh3 had a lot of depth.

@Oneandonlyagust

3 жыл бұрын

Spam magic and attraction flow yay... not to say I didn’t enjoy it, but it also wasn’t optimized very well

@ZZAFRETZZ

3 жыл бұрын

@@Oneandonlyagust did even play the game on critical?

@ChoiceSnarf

3 жыл бұрын

@@ZZAFRETZZ But critical wasn't in base kh3...

@ZZAFRETZZ

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChoiceSnarf and it wasn't in base kh2 either. At least in kh3 it was added for free not long after the game got released.

@robertwindshade7629

3 жыл бұрын

@@ZZAFRETZZ That doesn't make it better.