1:54 The start of a great love story. You can see the passion in their eyes as they look at each other.

@sizone

8 жыл бұрын

+Marty Soupcoff it's a tragedy! two robots repeating the mantra of the belay-ready sequence! where's the love?!

@coex67

8 жыл бұрын

Really. Exchanging climbing commands when standing on the ground one foot from each other is pretty silly, even for robots.

@khoichau8316

6 жыл бұрын

Still a better love story than Twilight LOL!

Great job AAC! Looking forward to more great videos.

@AmericanAlpineClub

8 жыл бұрын

+Jon Crefeld Thank you!

I keep coming back to this video for reference. Great job, AAC, thanks! Interesting comments as always. Stop worrying that newbies are going to learn from this and screw up an advanced (hand-over-hand) technique. Newbies can screw up any technique and should always be supervised or coached and evaluated by someone more experienced. Read the intro - this video's purpose is not to teach newbies, it's to educate experienced belayers to measure whatever technique they may use or see against the fundamental rules of belaying. Good comment about keeping hands away from the device in case of a sudden pull. LOL- (4:08) "Pull Break Under Slide" - BRAKE means slow or stop, break is pause or render useless. As for "On belay, John," if you want to get someone's attention at a crowded crag or noisy gym, call out their name first, THEN shout the command. But overall, good vid!

Well done!

@AmericanAlpineClub

8 жыл бұрын

Thank you, David!

Overall, pretty solid video, and nicely produced. I do have one thing to mention, and that is on the belay calls / communication. There is no need for the climber to initiate communication with the question of "Belay on?" Asking this question serves no purpose. The belayer should initiate the communication by telling the climber "belay is on", and then the climber responds with "climbing". Another way to interpret the question of "belay on?" is, "I'm ready to climb why the hell aren't you ready yet, what are you doing . . .?" Climber be patient, the belayer is focusing on being safe and they will tell you when it's OK for you to proceed. Until then, be quiet.

One item missing is the need to slide the break hand down and/or double up hands when locking off a falling climber. The video shows the brake hand awfully close to the device when locking off. Bad things happen if the break hand gets pulled into the belay device.

@dgiroday1

5 жыл бұрын

If the brake hand is too close to the tubular belay device it can get pulled into a pinch point. This can cause an involuntary release of the rope. This is similar to putting your hand on a hot stove element.... you will pull away immediately. A release could cause the climber to fall. REI has a top rope belay video that covers this topic. Please see the link. kzread.info/dash/bejne/dXp93Jaccqm8otI.html A rule of thumb provided to me by a climbing instructor was to leave a fist width of space between the tubular belay device and the brake hand. Fist widths will vary, but this is a decent rule of thumb.

-The German Alpine Club (DAV) recommends to not unnecessarily bring brake hand above the device line. No need to bring brake hand so high. -More clarity on proper lowering would be nice too. "Most climbers use two hands" doesn't quite cut it. -4:26 Probably good to have that second hand on there as a backup rather than doing nothing with it.

I thought the V to the Knee 123 is the standard way to belay.

New climber here, is there a reason it's not taught to backup the belay with a prusik to arrest the line should the belayer happen to take their hands off the brake. Or would it just be much slower

The way he said her name after each thing was pretty awkward....

Beautiful gym! Which rock gym is this? Where is it located?

@tilly379

5 жыл бұрын

Not as good as highpoint memphis

@sdmcelroy

4 жыл бұрын

This is Earth Treks in Golden, CO

@caseycronan9217

4 жыл бұрын

@@sdmcelroy I want to go to there.

@sdmcelroy

4 жыл бұрын

@@caseycronan9217 come on then! I'll let you use my guest pass

Over all this great! I like the clear presentation and the emphasis of the 3 golden rules, but I think you may be causing a dangerous disservice to your public with the second half of the video. If someone needs to watch this video in the first place the video should stop with PBUS; simply state afterwards that there are other techniques used by more experienced climbers that still achieve the 3 golden rules; but you should not teach them. There have been countless studies showing that too much information corrupts learning. Also the shuffle technique does not achieve one of the three and should not be shown. And an alternating hand technique is more effective for a fast belay than a hand over hand. I imagine you all spend a lot of time on this video, but I would sincerely consider making a few edits to prevent misunderstanding within the public.

Would have been a great video if it'd stopped at the first two strokes (about 3:30 in). With the addition of the "advanced" strokes, this is too complicated to show to new belayers.

@caseycronan9217

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I know for myself, if the distinction is made for anything gym related between "Beginner" and "Advanced" techniques, I'd have a tendency to want to try the advanced technique out of fear of looking like a beginner in front of all the experts. But don't worry, when critical safety is involved, my priorities are where they belong.

Can you add links to part 2 & 3 in the description?

@AmericanAlpineClub

7 жыл бұрын

Good idea! Yes.

Apparently the shuffle method described at 4:30 and explained in other how to videos on slack management with an ATC is no longer “universal”. I just failed a lead belay certification test at my gym for using this method so if you’re using this video as reference to prepare for a certification test just beware that depending on your gym or tester this may lead to a failure.

@abccanada6248

2 жыл бұрын

Pull, break, under, slide is universal and definitely some gyms consider the shuffle method as letting go of the rope. I don't see it done to often and don't see the advantage to it anyways. That being said I know a few of the gyms I'm lead certified at do allow small shuffles on the brake side of the rope while leading and u do have to shuffle up the rope when paying slack or pay to much slack so you have time to hold the brake side and slide your hand without shirt roping your climber

Who is this narrated by?

Great video to help everyone get on the same page. I am Not a fan of the communication word "Take." "Take" and "Slack" sound exactly the same when you have any distance between partners or there is any wind or other noise. They have the same 1 syllable with the same end sound. I have nearly been pulled off a climb yelling "Slack" and my belayer thought I said "Take." Sounds the same but two very different meanings. The word "Tension" is much better, two syllables and sounds totally different than "Slack." This used to be the standard in Freedom of the Hills, it would be great to get it back to the standard. Also the begining belay communication of using "Climb On" at the end should be just "Climb." Then the syllables of each communication goes 3, 2, 1 instead of 3, 2, 2. The syllables are an important count so you know what your partner's are saying when you are 200 feet away and you can also use rope tug counts in a pinch.

@sizone

8 жыл бұрын

+Nick D'Alessio on and off belay sound too similar too.

@alannagel2432

8 жыл бұрын

That is why it is recommended to use "ON Belay" and "Belay OFF"--even under windy conditions in the alpine, it's much easier to distinguish "UMMM garble" from "garble UHHH"

@rocksteady05

6 жыл бұрын

I actually overheard the probable ending of a belayshionship in that exact situation. Guy said slack and his gf took, he took a big whip and then they argued from 50 ft apart for 5 minutes while the rest of the crag(The Zoo in RRG) sat quite and awkward. I will say it sounded like he said take too, but it wasn't helpful to argue at that time.

What is to be covered in Part 2? 😀

@MrDifmaster

8 жыл бұрын

+Nik Jensen lead belaying?

@hellabull

8 жыл бұрын

+Doug Foster Right on!

@AmericanAlpineClub

8 жыл бұрын

+Doug Foster Yes, it will be on lead belaying.

@hellabull

8 жыл бұрын

+AmericanAlpineClub Thanks!

Is that John Long narrating this?

@eddieespinosa6026

3 жыл бұрын

Yep

His left hand barely holds on to the break end while the break hand slides up, and his resting position is with only one hand on the rope. Not that the latter greatly impacts the risks, but I would still call it bad practice, especially in an instructional video from an official body.

@mountbeckworth1

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, I agree. When the rope infront of the belayer forms a V, it is the least secure position. A sudden fall means within micro-seconds the belayer has to move his right hand down below his waist. Why not have it there all the time? And his hand is sometimes too close to tge belay device; as someone noted, the immediate reaction would be like touching a hot stove...letting go. Maybe view the french ENSA site on KZread for more intelligent advice.

I just wanna tell everyone not to tread on me and that I’m one of them good ole boys

I applaud the AAC for taking on this critical issue and I look forward to the day when there is a high standard of belay excellence burned into the hearts and minds of all climbers. I would like to take issue with 3 points of this Part 1 presentation. First are the "Climbing Commands". This set of signals deviates pretty far from the standard that we teach, and is closer to modern slang. Most critically the terms Up-rope, Slack, Falling!, and Tension, are omitted or changed. These are critical commands and exist to avoid confusion (Take sounds just like Slack/ are opposite commands). Yelling Falling can save a leader's life. Secondly, the Two handed technique is highly laborious and (safe, but) ineffective. It has no place in an instructional video about belaying. Third, showing the Shuffle also seems badly out of place. Though it may be safe if done perfectly by a conscientious belayer, it falls squarely in the Sloppy Belaying category. Missing from this demo is the truly safe and effective 2 hand technique that involves switching break hands at each stroke. The brake hand returns to the (lower) brake position at the end of an Up-rope stroke, then the opposite hand comes onto the rope closer to the belay device, switching break/ free hand duties, and another stroke is taken without having to slide either hand. As safe as possible, and highly efficient. This technique is worthy of inclusion.I am glad to see the "overhand position" being presented. I have been teaching climbing professionally for 30 years. I am sorry to admit that I have slacked on my AAC membership. I feel that poor safety practices may be the undoing of our wonderful sport/ profession as it becomes ever more popular. Thanks to the AAC for taking on this critical task. Teaching people the right way, from day one, with the appropriate tone setting for safety and personal responsibility, is the best way to promote our sport. Sincerely, Tom Davis, Co-Owner, Pacific Edge

"universal belay standard" you know, the belay standard that is different to what is used in europe, oceana, africa and asia

I am so disappointed that hand over hand made it into this video. There is just no legitimate reason to use this technique and most likely results in times when no hand is securely on the rope. I wonder what high speed video would show... :(

@chiharrisphotography

8 жыл бұрын

+Adam Barlow Agreed...along with the one handed shuffle technique. Stick with the PBUS method and call it a day.

@brianottinger9931

8 жыл бұрын

+Adam Barlow I agree with you completely, Adam. Hand over hand on the rope means you are letting go of the rope each time you swap, opening the door to either missing the rope or grabbing the wrong loop of rope (like at a belay with a pile of rope). Slide if you must, but it's really not that hard to keep your belay hand on the rope and move your guide hand back and forth to help you slide the brake hand, all the while keeping a large enough angle between the ropes through the belay device that it will lock without additional hand movement required. We have taught the method shown in the video for many years (except for the hand over hand part) in the rock climbing school of the Explorers Club of Pittsburgh and it has served us well. Other than the hand over hand issue, I'm pleased with the video and am really glad to see the AAC pushing this belay technique. It sure beats the hell out of what I call the "gym belay" in which the brake hand brings the rope up to the guide hand, with the guide hand pinching the two strands while the brake hand slides down towards the belay device. While the guide hand is pinching and the brake hand is sliding, the belay device is totally non-functional and the biner behind it is just a pulley. To catch a falling climber while belayed this way, three things must happen: the belayer must recognize that a fall is taking place, then the belayer must let go of the brake strand of the rope, and then the brake hand has to be moved away far enough that a sufficient angle is formed between the ropes to produce effective braking. The first two events may not happen if distracted or startled, and all three, if done, may take too long to prevent disaster. With the technique shown in the video, and as we teach, a fall can take place at any time in the sequence, and whether it's recognized as a fall or not, the belay device will work and the climber is caught. Sorry to get on my soapbox there, but I'm passionate about good belaying and tend to go on about it. I hope I'm preaching to the choir for most people, but if not, please try the technique shown (without the hand over hand part), working to retrain your muscle memory to learn this technique. It's worth it. Thanks, Brian

@firefox492

8 жыл бұрын

+Brian Ottinger While i wouldnt feel uncomfortable with someone belaying me hand over hand i agree that this method of belaying should be phased out. hands coming on and off the brake line leave an unnecessary chance for error. In my OPINION id prefer what you call the "gym belay" over the hand over hand for one reason. You have an established brake hand that stays on the brake line. When i instructed at the local gym a hand over hand belay would be a technical fail on the belay test, while a "gym belay" would be a technical pass. In either case i would encourage them to slightly alter their technique to the PBUS method. As far as the one hand slide in concerned, i personally feel it has no place in climbing. i would not feel comfortable climbing with a partner that insisted on belaying that way.

@douglasharro2415

8 жыл бұрын

+Adam Barlow, I agree. This is the first time I've heard someone say that the "hand over hand" technique was acceptable. It's easy to get sloppy while switching hands. If your climber falls and the rope starts to run while you're switching brake hands, I think the result might be a pretty bad rope burn and a dropped climber. Use your dominant hand for your brake, perfect your belay technique, and build the muscle memory so that you can do it without thinking about it even when you're cold, wet, and exhausted.

@coex67

8 жыл бұрын

Our friends in the UK have used the hand-over-hand method for years folks, and it is standard there today.

These climbing commands are needlessly complicated and confusing and not particularly well suited for multi-pitch and alpine routes. "On Belay" sounds just like "Off Belay" There's no mention of "tension" or "slack" These probably work fine for the gym or single pitch sport routes, but are not ideal for other circumstances.

@ryankordupleski8378

6 жыл бұрын

What commands do you use for multi-pitch communication? When you can't hear or see your second have you come up with any methods?

@tacul9333

2 жыл бұрын

@@ryankordupleski8378 Lead climber climbs until he reaches the stance and secures himself to the belay. Calls out "Secure." This tells the belayer to take him off belay. Lead climber gets everything done that needs to be done (sets up master point, rigs the belay device for the 2nd, etc.) Lastly, the lead climber takes in the excess rope. When the rope comes tight, the leader immediately puts the 2nd on belay and calls out "on belay." That's it. 2 commands that relate to the safety system. Neither sounds like the other. When actually climbing, the leader can call for "tension" or "slack" but an attentive belayer generally won't need this.

That method of be laying is one of the worst it seems