Never expected this Incredibles example to be so controversial. The arguments I'm seeing in the comments are really interesting and I wish I'd been able to make this video with the benefit of knowing those perspectives. If I'd known this would separate audiences so much though I'd probably have chosen a different example to ease people into the topic. I feel I really misjudged a part of my video here, and I hope this opening doesn't taint too many people's perception of the full thing. I know I've not committed some horrific crime or anything here, I'm just annoyed with myself for needlessly turning so many people off like that.

@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter

Жыл бұрын

That's fair

@kittysplode

Жыл бұрын

well, especially since the only definition of plot hole you provide is that dude's, it isn't. batman example isn't a plot hole either, it's just something that happened offscreen that makes sense in the context of "he's batman" but wasn't explained. it turns out that even through all of this, you don't know what a plot hole is.

@kittysplode

Жыл бұрын

anyway, drink your bean milky

@Pistonrager

Жыл бұрын

Never bothered me. She's a skilled tailor working with stretchable materials. She really just needs to know the kids heights and a semi recent image.

@lumeronswift

Жыл бұрын

I never thought of it as a family connection (which a lot of people have said in the comments) or a plot hole as much as a world detail about how much surveilance the government keeps on their family... and Edna is strongly highlighted as being both still part of the system and an overactive busybody.

One of the biggest plot holes in the prequel trilogy of Star wars is how after getting with Anakin, Padme gets pregnant and how that happened is never explained in the movie, and my parents won't tell me how that happened

@VelvetIcematoro

Жыл бұрын

Padme is royalty, and royalty is known to eat some weird stuff, so clearly, she ate not 1, but 2 space storks. It's the only logical solution

@gracekim25

Жыл бұрын

XD no that doesn't need to be explain. EVERY ADULT AND TEEN KNOWS

@gracekim25

Жыл бұрын

@@VelvetIcematoro thank you for that :)

@samwallaceart288

Жыл бұрын

The storks will be with you. Always.

@monkeymode13

Жыл бұрын

@@gracekim25 bruh

Edna seems like the kind of person who would know a lot of things she's not supposed to know about.

@sugarrayd2315

Жыл бұрын

Edna wouldn't like you very much Mr. TonytheCapeGuy

@TonytheCapeGuy

Жыл бұрын

@@sugarrayd2315 Don't narc on meeeee! Dx

@PaintSplashProductions

Жыл бұрын

She totally stalked the Parr family

@asailijhijr

Жыл бұрын

She's a god.

@rigelbound6749

Жыл бұрын

Exactly, she's got people

I always thought in the Incredibles it was subtly implied that Edna, being incredibly rich and rather insane, is sort of a Batman figure, but for fashion, and likely has a comprehensive list of all known (and most unknown) super-powered individuals, specific details on their powers, and a comprehensive plan on how to create a super suite for them. At least that’s what I took away from it as a kid, and I absolutely loved the implications

@wastelanderone

4 ай бұрын

I never thought about this before but you're right ofc

@coriander_sun

4 ай бұрын

Which is extra interesting when it comes to Jack Jack's suit - If I recall correctly, at that point, he hadn't exhibited any powers. So either Edna went way overboard and crammed that suit with all sorts of features just in case and they turned out to be useful, or somehow she knew before anyone else (including his parents) what his powers would be like. Which would raise further questions - Is she spying on everyone and, like, obtained some of Jack Jack's DNA and was able to determine from that what his powers would be? Or does she have a latent superpower of knowing what people need in a super suit?

@athenabrown3117

4 ай бұрын

@@coriander_sun I always got the vibe that it was the former with Jack-Jack, going with everything that could possibly protect/be useful to a Super Baby of any kind.

@antiope-d9780

4 ай бұрын

I had kind of just assumed either Mr Incredible or Elastagirl had talked to her over the phone once or twice in the last decade

@squaredink6263

4 ай бұрын

@@coriander_sun I think she did say that she didn't know what the baby's powers were so she was covering various possibilities.

I love the part in Goblet of Fire that Evil David Tennant disguised as Brendan Gleeson says "Only a powerful confundus charm cast by an exceptionally powerful wizard could have hoodwinked [the Goblet of Fire]." In hindsight, he's, of course, referring to himself. "I don't know who did this act, but he sounds handsome."

@esmeecampbell7396

Жыл бұрын

He's probably a very charismatic villain with a massive penis that all the ladies are very satisfied by... why are you looking at me like that Albus?

@megahobbit5972

11 ай бұрын

The obama prize meme right there xD

@Catheidan

10 ай бұрын

My issue with "why did they have to use the trophy as the port key" is a plot hole is that Voldemort is a drama queen and has to make everything as dramatic as possible.

@liliesaregoodfortheliver2954

9 ай бұрын

​@@Catheidanalso I think Voldemort wasnt ready for the resurrection until the end of the school year. He'd been working his way up from a literal shadow of his former self to a weird flesh gremlin.

@corvididaecorax2991

9 ай бұрын

​@@Catheidan​ It is pretty easy to come up with possible canon compliant explanations for the port key being the trophy. In addition to Voldemort being too into dramatics to live, there is also the possibility that the wards around Hogwarts block port keys normally, but there was an exception put up for the trophy because it was intended to port the winner out of the maze. Which also neatly explains why it manages to port Harry back when he touches it again, as the original port key enchantment was still there unactivated. Would be nice to have a line or two about that in the actual book or movie though.

Plotholes are a problem, because the story lies to the audience. The Incredibles never establishes how Edna knows about Bob's children, but it also never establishes it would be hard for her to find out. It actually establishes several reasons why it would be easy, which others have stated in the comments. The Dark Knight Rises on the other hand states several reasons why it would be very hard for Batman to get back into Gotham and then it isn't.

@basedeltazero714

Жыл бұрын

Honestly, while I *can* entirely believe Batman got back to Gotham - he's the Goddamn Batman - it's also established to be challenging enough it'd be more interesting if we got to see some of it, in the same way a story is more interesting than a dry summary of it's premise and conclusion.0

@TheNoonish

Жыл бұрын

@@basedeltazero714 Also, the story could have just ended after Bane showed up by cutting to him being in jail later, and the audience assuming that Batman saved the day in between cuts. But it’s really unsatisfying for Batman to deal with problems offscreen, which is why this film shouldn’t have set up problems for Batman to solve offscreen.

@biggestastiest

10 ай бұрын

doesn't edna say out loud that she knows everything, or am i misremembering

@paradox4576

10 ай бұрын

@@biggestastiest im not sure but like, its edna, if anyone would know everything about peoples superpowers it would be her

@creed8712

9 ай бұрын

There is an unspecified amount of time that’s passed since his escape to returning to Gotham.

I appreciate the line "an alien impostor has taken over the supposed brain of one of the crew members" which subtly establishes that the implausible thing isn't the alien impostor but the idea that one of the crew members has a brain

@Val-ud9fn

Жыл бұрын

Amogus

@reptiliannoizezz.413

Жыл бұрын

ඞ

@ninjawiz7932

Жыл бұрын

Honestly that line is pure genius.

@nodrance

11 ай бұрын

I came here to comment this, it absolutely killed me and i only barely noticed it.

@Red_Mag3

11 ай бұрын

Do your tasks, there's an impooster amoogus

I never thought of Edna making the costumes as a plot hole, I always thought the implication was that Edna semi-stalked the family. On top of that I never thought her stalking was ever like creepy/malicious, just this weirdly excentric but loving Aunt who still cared about her two biggest clients.

@simonmacomber7466

5 ай бұрын

I always thought that Edna was provided dossiers on _all_ of the retired super heroes by the very agency that put them into the government program to hide them. She wasn't stocking them. She was part of the group keeping tabs on them, and likely had made the supersuits for _all_ of those who came out of hiding to face off against Syndrome on his island.

@chaoticgoodcreations947

5 ай бұрын

It is also a pretty reasonable explanation that Edna just, ya know, was told about the kids and their powers by either their mom or dad. She came to their wedding and was a close friend to most heroes she designed for. She wouldn't have to literally see the children because word would have just gotten around to her eventually.

@bunnylovingbastard

5 ай бұрын

​@@chaoticgoodcreations947I probably most agree with this take, simply based that when she's talking to Mrs Incredible it definitely seems like two friends discussing ones kids over tea and the only child costume that surprises Mrs Incredible is Jak-Jak's - most likely cause Jak-Jak looks to be about 6 to 8 months old and Edna and her obviously haven't hung out in years.

@xenn4985

4 ай бұрын

​@@bunnylovingbastardheres my question, didnt bob go to her to get his new suit? And wasnt it an entire element of the scene when helen went, that edna assumed she knew about bobs activities and was there to ask for suits? So wouldnt the logical assumption be that bob told edna about the kids?

@andyghkfilm2287

4 ай бұрын

Not to mention: “And you’ve torn right through it! What have you been _doing_ Robert…? Moonlighting hero work?” She knows Bob is lying and deceiving his family, and Edna LOVES Elastigirl. She’s looking out for her homies AND reliving her glory days at the same time.

The thing about the goblet of fire is it’s suck an easy fix. For example, when they board the Hogwarts express have Harry ask off handedly “hey, why don’t we just use a port key to get to Hogwarts” and have Hermione explain “Hogwarts has a charm around it that prevents port keys from landing anywhere on the grounds, and any port keys brought into Hogwarts are automatically disabled” Then later in the movie while they’re discussing how Harry’s name got on the goblet have Mad Eye says one thing along the lines of “The goblet is resistant to almost all charms placed on it. It would take very strong dark magic to override it” Then in the final scene we can get the “Ah ha” moment when it’s revealed that the reason it had to be the Triwizard cup is because it’s one of the few magic items that can resist the protection charm around Hogwarts. It’s literally 3 lines of dialogue, and it makes the ending much more satisfying.

@rooty

4 ай бұрын

It's a common head canon that dumbledore magically exempted the cup from the no-portkeys-at-hogwarts rule so that it could transport the winner from the centre of the maze back to the start (as well as being proof of who touched it first). This also works as an explanation for another plot hole, which is why did the cup transport Harry away from the graveyard. Barry crouch only added a new portkey charm to the cup that transports the user to the graveyard but never removed the original portkey charm that transports the user to the start of the maze, either because he overlooked it or because he expected Harry to be dead. I don't know why jay said the plot hole isn't in the book though because it definitely is.

@TheGreatGooglyMoogly1958

3 ай бұрын

I think the move placed too much faith that all the people watching it remember all the books as well. In the book they explained that they wanted harry to disappear during the tournament so that people will think it was because of the tournament. They state wizards have died in the past competing and were hoping they would assume the same with harry.

@hosvet_animation

2 ай бұрын

@@TheGreatGooglyMoogly1958 Give him a cigar folks. He remembered it for us.

As a famous critic of nostalgia once said: "if you are starting to see the strings, it means the puppets aren't distracting you well enough" Ive seen the incredibles 10+ times and I never caught that plot hole because it is such a tightly written story (said issue could also be fixed with a couple throwaway lines too)

@Sugarman96

Жыл бұрын

That's a surprisingly good quote, and it really drives home the problem with equating all plot holes.

@zanzaklaus2496

Жыл бұрын

Not saying you're wrong, but do not quote the nostalgia critic. It does not look good. Alfred Hitchcock has a similar quote, use him instead.

@Zutia

Жыл бұрын

@@zanzaklaus2496 Elaborate on this? I recall him being over the top in his skits but having generally decent discussions and points made about the movies he covered.

@yuu34567

Жыл бұрын

​@@ZutiaChannel Awesome went through a lot of (justified) controversy a while ago

@itcouldbelupus2842

Жыл бұрын

Quoting Doug Walker without mentioning that he's dumb as fuck is going to make people raise their eyebrows and not take what you say as seriously.

When it comes to criticisms like A Quiet Place's "why didn't they move near the waterfall", people need to realize that no one is asking for a movie where the family is perfectly safe and nothing happens and they live happily ever after next to the river, people are asking for the movie to not introduce a solution so simple if they want us to care about everything else that happens in the story.

@BWMagus

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. It's basically a form of Chekhov's gun--don't show us something that could resolve the plot, and then not use it or give us a reason WHY it's not used.

@Potassiumkloride

Жыл бұрын

The waterfall solution is also extra annoying because it's the kind of plot hole where it wouldn't have taken a lot to make it a non-issue. An easy answer could have been to just make the river too unsafe for more than fishing trips. Maybe the aliens seek out water at night, or the river is prone to flash flooding. Both are understandable reasons not to live there, would explain why they couldn't have the mother give birth there, and could be conveyed through dialogue alone like, Kid: "Why don't we just live here all the time?" Dad: "The river's not safe at night. We'll be heading back long before the sun goes down."

@mckenzie.latham91

Жыл бұрын

Also sorry but folks living out in the open, even in a tent, is not a good idea...Rain, storms, winter, snow etc. all of it is dangerous to people outside, especially in cloth tents

@gavinwilson5324

Жыл бұрын

Honestly, the waterfall isn't a plot hole in the first place. It's established that the main characters are farmers, and they need to work their land to feed themselves. It's unlikely that fishing at the river alone could satisfy their needs, given how full the grain silo is, and how small and shallow the river is. There's a lot of environmental storytelling in that movie, and most questions about the plot can easily be answered by looking a little more closely.

@cameronpolite2199

Жыл бұрын

I honestly don't think that really a good argument. Since moving to a waterfall offers a lot of issues. Where do they store their food, what do they eat. What about in the winter. Cover from weather. Etc

The line “Somehow, Batman returned” took me OUT and felt like it would have been the point of the entire piece if it wasn’t less than 15% of the way into the video

At 00:24 Jay Exci says "you volantarily clicked on this video so at least you care a little bit" but in fact this video played automatically for me. That's a plot hole.

@meggubravo8373

3 ай бұрын

🤓💥🤛

@AlinaAniretake

Ай бұрын

same, but it was worth automatic)

"A plot hole can be subtle or conspicuous, tiny or ridiculous, one can be forgotten within seconds or can stick with us." Pure poetry.

@QwertySanchezSA

Жыл бұрын

got fuckin baaars.

@hychro

Жыл бұрын

It’s like poetry, it rhymes

@Propanus

Жыл бұрын

He's a poet and he didn't realise

@valeriegrindinger6294

Жыл бұрын

@@Propanus im fairly certain it was on purpose

@nenmaster5218

Жыл бұрын

Plot Hole Rabbit Hole kzread.info/dash/bejne/lW2MypmYiNnUdqw.html kzread.info?search_query=Multiverse+of+Madness%3A+An+Unbridled+Cataclysm+ kzread.info/dash/bejne/anZ9xaOTqKnMosY.html

I always assumed it was part of the joke that Edna Mode knew a bunch of stuff she wasn't supposed to, she seems like the type to have sketchy connections that keep her in-the-know on Supers, especially Bob, who she's clearly fond of. Though I suppose it could have been more elaborated on in that scene.

@syntheticteapot

Жыл бұрын

You get it. This right here.

@professorhaystacks6606

Жыл бұрын

I just figured she was spying on everyone. In the universe.

@merchantarthurn

Жыл бұрын

YEA, with all her tech and paranoia you'd think she'd keep tabs! I would have loved to have that come into play with her hinting even more that all the super disappearances were suspicious, especially if someone of them had come to her like bob had

@Darvoth

Жыл бұрын

It’s also possible albeit less likely that Mr Incredible just talked about his family with Edna Mode off screen.

@kaylaisnothere4397

Жыл бұрын

Right? In that same scene Edna was airing her grievances of only designing for models, she felt the same passion to return to hero work Bob did. Given her bold personality and personal interest in heroes, I think it was a better choice to not have her explain how she knew but rather leave it up to the audience on how she found out that information. Not every detail in a story needs to be expounded upon, and sometimes omission of information can add character depth.

I hate the argument against plot holes that are “but if plot hole didn’t happen then blank couldn’t have happened”. As if the script can’t just be rewritten.

@AllyMonsters

7 ай бұрын

It's not that it can't be rewritten (to be honest, they've all be rewritten so much is more of the problem). But also once production start and script changes happen, a lot of money has to be spent to rush to meet those changes. usually this is done has reshoots at a way later date. And that comes with a whole host of complications. And a lot of stuff that looks good on paper isn't so easy to just translate onto the screen,

@zombieregime

7 ай бұрын

@@AllyMonsters On top of that entirely valid comment, there is also a lot of stuff that ends up on the cutting rooms proverbial floor for timing or story or any number of reasons. In Nostalgia Critics Fury Road review they point out the gaps in what is explained versus what is ....just here in this crazy ass world.... and how not everything needs a back story, or to be explicitly defined. The title and name escape me at the moment, but there was another movie where the ending left a lot up to interpretation, and when asked about what the ending meant the director/writer said there isnt an explanation, it was explicitly written to be left open to interpretation so that people could conversate about what they believed it meant. We dont need to be told every little thing, allowing the audience to fill in gaps on their own doesn't make something a plot hole. If anything, finding yourself in a conversation on the interpretation of a scene....that just means the art did its job....it inspired a thought you might not have had before.... It allows you the viewer to have some agency in the story by letting you imagine the where what and why of hanging threads. There being hanging threads does not imply that the story therefore can or even should be unraveled. But apparently, a close friend of superheros has no logical way of knowing about their children.....

@AllyMonsters

7 ай бұрын

@@zombieregime I agree. Interpretations are such a double edged sword now adays though when it comes to writing in "geekdom". People like the idea of categorizing "lore" for profit, selling their interpretations rather then sharing and comparing. It's kinda odd, as it leads more so to a competition more times then not of whose interpretations are correct over the others. Theory crafting only to be shot down later by the devs/writers that left it open (be by bad writing or intentionally), as one example out of many.

@kentonbaird1723

7 ай бұрын

It's almost like he's begging everyone to LOWER THEIR STANDARDS and stop criticising his favourite disney star wars movie.

@taylorzen1

7 ай бұрын

exactly. if the removal of a plot hole "removes conflict and ends the story" then your story is bad and should be changed.

Just my two cents, but I imagine if you contacted a close friend after a few years without contact, even if you're only looking for a favor, you'd use the opportunity to catch up with each other. In fact the start of the scene where Bob makes his request to Edna implies that they just finished such a conversation. Any other wrinkles could be ironed out by pointing out that she's extremely rich and well connected.

@Hot4Thot

5 ай бұрын

Yes! If you meet an old friend/acquaintance you ask how their family are doing. It's polite.

@Klinkertinlegs

5 ай бұрын

This was my thought

@ironkook101

4 ай бұрын

​@@Hot4Thotstill doesn't explain how she'd have the children's measurements and exact body types

@shelletemisfit9799

4 ай бұрын

​@@ironkook101 she's Edna Mode! designer to the star superheroes, and designing suits and knowing measurements is her own superpower imo. I'm sure Bob showed her pictures of them and she could easily know just by looking at them and scaling patterns cause that's how good she is and why she's the one the supers go to

@ironkook101

4 ай бұрын

@shelletemisfit9799 the creator says in the very video we are commenting on that you could make up whatever suits you in order to explain away a plot hole. it's in the section about the dark knight. just because you can come up with a reasonable explanation does not mean that it's not a plot hole. we can come up with any sort of explanation we want, but the fact of the matter is that the content inside the movie does not even imply how she got all that information. we can attempt to explain it away, like "maybe bob told her about the kids!" or "bob surely drove over to her beforehand and showed her pictures" or "she checked a database with all this info" but the movie itself does not imply anything one way or another. it's a plot hole, even if the explanation seems reasonable to you. the dark knight example is more drastic, but they are virtually the same thing.

This is the first time in a while I've heard "alien" "imposter" and "crew" in the same sentence without the imposter sting. This video is clean.

@GentlyUsedFrog

Жыл бұрын

ඞ

@_9br

10 ай бұрын

quiet weeb

@StardustCorvid

10 ай бұрын

​@@_9br Get a personality, man

@funnyvideoguy3216

9 ай бұрын

Why did I only just realize that now

@MajorOctofuss

9 ай бұрын

​@@StardustCorvidi started laughing so hard my dad stopped beating my mom

"I'm indoors in one shot and outdoors in another shot" For it to be comparable to what happens in Dark Knight Rises, you'd have had to be bidridden and injured, trapped inside of the building with armed guards covering every entrance and exit with orders to kill you on sight. And then in the next shot you're just outside, wandering around, never mentioning the guards or your injury ever again. The audience understands that you did it, somehow, otherwise you wouldn't be in the 2nd location. They want to know how on earth you even could, given the information already set up.

@Shenaldrac

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. It's not that it's impossible, it's that it's not plausible and deserves and explanation. could Mr. Bateman return to Gotham from Pit City? Sure! But how?

@MamadNobari

Жыл бұрын

Clearly your IQ is too low for you to grasp the complexity and the genius of Nolan scripts.

@bigbadgammagnome

Жыл бұрын

​@@Shenaldracyeah it's the screenwriting equivalent of giving up. You want high stakes for your character but aren't smart enough to figure out how they could overcome those odds? Simple! Just cut to them having already done it! Like I'm amazed people defend this kinda thing. Maybe they consider him getting out of the hole to be "enough" but still, I feel that was only part one of "how tf does he get back to Gotham" Like idk. If you can't figure out how to get your character back into a location you specifically wrote to be difficult to get into... I think that calls for a rewrite.

@Shenaldrac

Жыл бұрын

@@bigbadgammagnome Yeah. I think the worst part is people claiming that filling in these plot holes via theorycrafting and headcanoning is actually good because "it makes you think". I've seen some people act very superior because they enjoy theorizing and coming up with explanations for plot holes. To those people I say: Great! _Become writers and use that creativity to write stories!_ Don't waste that imagination doing another writer's work for them!

@zephyr8072

Жыл бұрын

It’s why the smarmy line “audiences are expected to be reasonably intelligent” really annoys me. Implying people are somehow stupid for wanting pertinent information about a character’s situation. Even worse, yes, this notion that inventing the narrative for a story somehow makes you smart. It doesn’t. You should never manufacture story elements for a writer. That’s the writer’s job. It’s as ridiculous as being expected to finish a CG effect yourself. “What? Those Jedi are holding plastic glowsticks? I’m sorry if the movie expected you to have some intelligence and use a program to add the saber effects and sounds yourself. Viewers are so self-entitled!”

Ok I do think that it would be genuinely more horrifying if there was a horror movie where the characters made smart decisions and but the villain was even smarter and was able to kill them anyway

@BWMagus

11 ай бұрын

Indeed. Like how many people went "Well, it sucks that Kyle Reese and Sarah Connor were arrested, but at least an entire police department of armed cops can protect them" and fucking nope.

@officialmonarchmusic

7 ай бұрын

@@BWMagus Great example! I love it when people make competent decisions and still get outwitted or outgunned

@thisxgreatxdecay

7 ай бұрын

"Instead of splitting up and looking for clues, let's stick together and make sure we don't get separated." _Eldritch monster proceeds to literally fuse their flesh together._

@TheWickedWizardOfOz1

6 ай бұрын

As mentioned above, the movie you are looking for is called The Thing.

@murciadoxial8056

6 ай бұрын

that's basically the thing, also alien

I’m sorry but the fact that there’s a jigsaw puzzle of the scene where Mr. Incredible gets told his family is dead is just insane and hilarious

I feel like every few months you just get immensely infuriated with something and accidentally create another masterpiece

@woodge7

Жыл бұрын

YO

@birdup1_2

Жыл бұрын

@@woodge7 AYYYY

@arksuren_

Жыл бұрын

and we love it

@oddie97

Жыл бұрын

Honestly more people should drop videos in this manner. Also Rhythm Heaven pfp gang ✌️

@realchiknuggets

Жыл бұрын

@@woodge7 lmaooo

The irony of him citing Alien as a movie with a plot hole is not only that it's not a plot hole, but it's a horror movie where all the characters behave logically and intelligently and when they don't and break down it's with very good reason. This makes the thing that's hunting them actually scary because they're not a bunch of idiots, they feel like real people making real decisions. Also, Ripley behaving logically by following safety protocols and refusing to allow Cain back on board creates conflict with the rest of the crew. As in a massive argument so severe than in the director's cut it results in Ripley being slapped hard across the face by Lambert. Funny how he missed that. In fact Ripley specifically behaves logically throughout the whole movie, her decisions being entirely rational and constantly vindicated. She's also one of the most beloved heroines in all fiction. But nah, logical people are boring, bro. Trust me.

@CoolJoshido212

Жыл бұрын

haha exactly

@petery6432

Жыл бұрын

Also, wasn't it Ash, the secret traitor, who ultimately let Cain in? That also plays into how smart people could let an Alien in, because once it's in, Ripley can't do much.

@canniblanch

Жыл бұрын

This! It's such an opportunity to find more creative ways to create conflict in movies but nope gotta go the cop out route and say "durrr the movie wouldn't exist then"

@tronam

Жыл бұрын

So many people are missing the spirit of Patrick’s overarching points. Humans are not always rational or logical. They’re flawed emotional creatures who can act impulsively and make dumb decisions in retrospect because they don’t have all the information that an omniscient viewer might have. None of those things are “plot holes”.

@zephyr8072

Жыл бұрын

@@tronam Watch the video before commenting, because Jay addresses this silly point and I ain't gonna repeat what he says. However I will add that something you and Patrick in his infinite density don't get is that humans are not always logical. But we try to be. We try to make the most rational decision we can even as our emotions influence that. Moreover, Patrick has an infantile view of storytelling and.. for that matter.. logic.. where he assumes that if people behave logically they will always succeed. This is patently false. As demonstrated, again, by Alien. You also miss the part where I said "and when they don't and break down it's with good reason". In Alien, Lambert panics, makes objectively dumb decisions and gets herself and Parker killed. Yet this isn't bad nor is her character stupid for doing so because the movie establishes very, _very_ good reasons for her to panic and freeze up such as it becomes a relatable situation where many of us would react the same way. That is how you do emotional and impulsive creatures. Not by just excusing an idiot plot with "well humans are dumb lol". Stop using bad excuses to defend trash takes.

The Another Life plothole is actually even worse. The whole bug thing is PROBABLY supposed to be because the diagnostic unit was automatically solving a bunch of problems on the ship, and without it, the ship couldn't maintain itself. But that just makes it worse because instead of being "Destroy a random wire to hopefully break the ship," it's "Destroy this VERY OBVIOUS AND SPECIFIC wire to DEFINITELY 100% without fail destroy the ship.

Regarding the waterfall debate... I think a line of dialogue would have done a lot of good. It makes sense for a family to settle in a house; They've clearly put a lot of effort into it with the lights an so on. The father could have taken the child to the waterfall and told him that they planned to live there but they haven't had time to settle in or whatever... or a conversation with the wife who refused because she felt unprotected in the wilderness...

@RogueAstro85

7 ай бұрын

Or just "If we can figure out a way to grow crops here, this is where we'll live" and have them try to set up irrigation from the river to grow crops. But not doing the birth there is pretty dumb

@murciadoxial8056

6 ай бұрын

hell, just have a line of dialogue that explains that this river floods every autumn and every spring, there

@Sarah12471

4 ай бұрын

Hell, even if you don't will want any of that, just have the father say that he only found this recently

@trekkiejunk

3 ай бұрын

How would they have even built a house near the waterfall? I'm sure chopping down a bunch of trees for lumber would have made a lot of noise. On top of that, did they have the tools to do it? And where would they put it? They couldn't put it UNDER the waterfall. It would have to be a distance away, at which point the protective sound of the waterfall would be fare less effective.

@murciadoxial8056

3 ай бұрын

@@trekkiejunk hmmm... that's actually a fair point, but a tent area could work as a solution

Edna is totally the kind of person to keep tabs on every old superhero. She probably has contacts inside and outside the government just to keep in touch. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the first time she's made suits on the down low.

@tkalle1299

Жыл бұрын

Or Facebook

@BadTimeBabble

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I agree with this. Probably not the best example to use when it comes to plot holes as it can be easily explained quite logically. Doesn't really need explaining because of that, which is not like the Batman example.

@billy6044

Жыл бұрын

@@tkalle1299 same thing

@spensirmclife6549

Жыл бұрын

​@@tkalle1299 Facebook started the year the movie came out so that avenue wouldn't be available for her

@endymallorn

Жыл бұрын

Christmas cards. That’s how she knows. She gets the “less-censored” version of the family picture - the one where Dash is slightly blurry, or Violet has a piece of herself missing. Very simple, makes perfect sense that Helen keeps Edna up to date and yet Edna, like any good mother-figure, gives Bob the ‘you never call, you never write’ guilt-trip, because she has to appear somewhat reluctant to do the one thing that’s ever brought her real joy, so that she finds out exactly what the hell her friend has gotten up to.

"Has taken over the supposed brain of one of the crew members" is such a funny line that caught me off guard. Well done, Jay.

@TheNoonish

Жыл бұрын

I missed the wording of that, thanks for pointing it out!

@SteveSmith-wk9dx

Жыл бұрын

Low-key one of the harshest criticisms of the show.

@zephyr8072

Жыл бұрын

It’s a pretty standard criticism of it tbh. A harsh criticism would be why would anyone create an AI with such an annoying accent.

@StopDropDash

Жыл бұрын

to anyone who doesnt get it he says "Supposed brain" Implying that they might not have a brain because of their idiocy

ı can never get over the fact that he cites contrivence as an issue but makes an enemy out of plot holes

@ivolol

11 ай бұрын

Well you see, the difference is that one is the result of lazy story telling and the other is the result of lazy story telling.

@ImortalZeus13

9 ай бұрын

I actually have an explanation for why he believes this! He’s a human: illogical and governed by emotion. If he had logically coherent argument there would be no points of contention and therefore no discussion!

@ZelphTheWebmancer

9 ай бұрын

@@ImortalZeus13 Goddammit, you cracked the code!

@viscountrainbows2857

9 ай бұрын

Am I having a fucking stroke

@tomstokoe5660

9 ай бұрын

Especially when you consider that plot contrivances are actually somewhat realistic. You ever read about how Archduke Franz Ferdinand got assassinated? The assassins did have a plan but it didn't have anything to do with him getting killed, the plan totally failed, but one assassin just spotted him outside a sandwich shop afterwards and improvised. Then WW1 happened.

I respect Jay for making an entire 1 hour video just debunking a random video that's been rent free in their head. I wish I had the platform to this with every shitty take I see on the internet

@soupmix211

6 ай бұрын

omg same, there's some things i could rant REALLY hard about for hours

@Hot4Thot

5 ай бұрын

Podcasting is free, go fill ya boots!

@peffiSC2source

5 ай бұрын

Don't let your dreams be memes. Go get 'em champ!

@TheOdot123

4 ай бұрын

if only there was a site to broadcast yourself perhaps in a tube format

I do hate it when some people nitpick something insignificant and frame it like it was a huge problem. But when there are actual big inconsistencies in a story you’re not gonna see me basically say “shut up it doesn’t matter”.

@CoolJoshido212

Жыл бұрын

thank you! i wish more people were like this

@pokvirus5705

Жыл бұрын

The whole internet going "hAHa! got you. you story doesn't make sense" just suck all the air out of any other discussion we could make.

@canniblanch

Жыл бұрын

I don't understand how people act like only two extremes are allowed to exist. Not every movie can be measured or watched the same way, it's so frustrating. Some movies are better experienced in thematic abstract ways, others are more rewarding when engaging with the in-world logic. People are really missing out if they pick just one way to watch every movie.

@michaeleanthonyjr

Жыл бұрын

Would you instead strike them down with the sword in your mouth using your 3 Sword Style? When you think about it, a blade in the mouth is more compelling than an articulate speech.

@benl2140

Жыл бұрын

​@@pokvirus5705 ...Why though? Even if a whole bunch of people are criticizing a movie for things that you see as irrelevant, what's stopping you from ignoring them and instead focusing on the things about the movie that you think do matter?

I never really saw Edna knowing about the kids as a problem or a plot hole at all. During her intro with Bob where they're walking down the hall we hear him asking her about her work and what she's been up to, knowing how conversations with human beings typically go I think it just makes complete sense for her to have asked him about his life too, which naturally includes being married and his family. I think we just didn't get that scene of her asking him because we already know all about Bob, so this whole portion of the movie is more dedicated to the audience getting to know Edna. Hence we get to see Bob asking about her, but not so much her asking about him.

@NonisLuck

Жыл бұрын

Perfect 👌

@P-nk-m-na

Жыл бұрын

it would still be weird for her to know their measurements? but honestly she looks like she could use a photo and their height alone to intuit them

@themostdop3533

Жыл бұрын

@@P-nk-m-na Yeah this is where it could kind of turn into "inventing scenes" or "writing the story for them" territory. However, if we're willing to grant the incredibly likely (pretty much definite, I think) possibility that Edna asked Bob about what he has been up to after they had to part ways as a result of the anti-super hero law, it's also totally in character for Edna and even Bob, to drop the question about making suits for the kids. I forget the scene but if Edna said she took the liberty to make them and no one asked, it's still possible for her to get their measurement information with very little explicit knowledge on it, considering she's this ridiculously amazing fashion designer.

@Valentine011

Жыл бұрын

@@themostdop3533 also theyre all stretchy, right? it doesnt really matter if she gets their exact fit right

@Toliman.

Жыл бұрын

Edna knows more about the Kids than their parents seem to, especially Jack's infant/toddler level of skill/aptitudes, i.e. Fire/Invisibility/Speed aren't really derivative of Stretching/Strength, so Edna must have some prescient knowledge of their abilities, especially when Jack 'freaks out' while mid-air. The Suit scene is probably only present to make Jack's transformation into a Devil, palatable. If you remove the suit scene, it could be traumatising to have the baby turn into a Devil child, not knowing that it's a joke, or how the audience should react. The problem of making Edna's involvement a Plot Hole, is that her entire existence is unexplained, implausible and undefined. If you start to define how/who/why/where/when, the character loses mystery, but also opens up new threads and story connections and problems. As long as Edna is Mysterious, the viewer won't speculate if she's working with the Villain, or she is the Villain, etc. This is kind of the problem with fantasy realism, it doesn't follow rules, and if you try to create plausible fantasy, you can step into quagmires where plausbile and implausible coexist, i.e. Jedi, Superhero Powers, Time-Travel, Infinite Money, being strong enough to lift a building, but "not strong enough" to rip someone's limbs off. Edna makes the suits over months, it's thus not clear if Edna saw the family, had a photo, surveilled them secretly, or was able to piece it together from hints, or was told by other people. She might have even had access to the surveillance by the government department that kept their identities secret, IDK. She took the liberty to make 3 suits for 3 very different children, knowing all about their requirements. I'm not sure it's a plot hole, because the existence of any super-suits is also a plot hole. They are implausible to begin with. The reveal, is a bit of a joke because we are 'demonstrated' by Edna that the suits work to reveal the abilities of the children before we even see them in action (if i remember correctly). This is a Checkov Gun type moment, because if we don't see Jack's suit, the 'comedy' surprise wouldn't work when Jack suddenly becomes a Devil monster child (ha ha, geddit?!). It would just be horrific/monstrous and freak people out. It's probably a convenient "out" that Edna is One Of, or the only "Super Suit" creator, given how integral she would be in the Hero/Villain economy. In a world filled with Heroes/Villains causing irreparable damage on a long-term basis, collateral damage would be incalculable. You'd also have to get repairs done, replacements, adapt materials, etc. It's a full-time business in secret, and the Heroes likely don't have a regular income. YMMV. Without an Edna Mentor character, we don't get the same reveal on Jack's 'demonic' like abilities to Transform/Ignite, sic, since the 'suit' reveal is a tease that Jack is 'special', not that it's over-engineered to be extremely safe. If it were made to be protective, it would basically wrap the baby up into a cocoon or dome of invulnerability. It helps that it's a kids movie, because the Super's and the Heroes would be very vulnerable if someone had a personal connection to multiple Heroes/Villains and their Alter-Ego's, especially once the government stepped in to regulate the Hero Business, sic. Edna knew all the vulnerabilities of the suit, the materials, addresses, et al. It's more probable that Edna works for both sides of the coin, and there's a murky grey area where people have to make a living in this world, that could be destroyed in an afternoon by someone with powers having a bad day. It makes more sense that Edna is a Moral/Grey Villain than a Hero, since Heroes would have an ethic to save everyone or give their services to those in need.

god I really appreciate how you opened the video by discussing The Incredibles and ended it with the Enormous Clock metaphor from the same film. just tiny bits of script-writing that don't go unnoticed. excellent work

If the waterfall is a plot hole in the quiet place, isnt it also a plot hole that all governments didnt just have air raid sirens, emergency alert systems and every other source of noise blaring constantly?

@elevate07

11 ай бұрын

It's also a plot that the aliens are vulnerable to a shotgun that can be found in a shed but they were able to take over the entire planet while we were loaded to the ears with far more powerful weapons.

@BWMagus

11 ай бұрын

Yes, the movie's entire premise is a gigantic plothole.

@Khanmanlol

6 ай бұрын

@@elevate07 I think it would have been better if the aliens only took over a small, rural area that no one has heard of.

@logemcdoge4620

2 ай бұрын

​@@elevate07well I think the idea is that it's only vunerable after opening it's head up

Edna was in Helen wedding. You could assume they kept in touch through the years for her to tell her about the children. The actual plot hole of The Incredibles is that when they decide to ban super heroes, somehow supervillains also go away. It's established there're a few supervillains in the universe, but why would they stop committing crimes just after the supers are banned? It's never explained what happened with them.

@bigbadgammagnome

Жыл бұрын

Huh, I never even considered that. In all my years of having watched and rewatched the Incredibles, the supervillains (minus Syndrome) have such little presence I honestly forgot they'd be an issue. I could give ideas for why it makes sense but at that point, like Jay pointed out, I'd just essentially be writing fan fiction because to my knowledge it's never actually explained in the movie.

@mthemstandsformilk1965

Жыл бұрын

Police

@DMHR100

Жыл бұрын

@@mthemstandsformilk1965 Unlikely

@Hippo_Hegemony

Жыл бұрын

​@@mthemstandsformilk1965 police cant even handle regular crime

@newerest1

Жыл бұрын

I'd assume it's the underlying theme of how some believe in batman for example the supervillains are all "created" by him.

Jay is clearly the kind of person who hears someone doing a gish gallop, and responds by tying them to a chair and proceeding to spend several hours responding to each and every faulty point rather than just telling them to shut up.

@elvingearmasterirma7241

Жыл бұрын

And frankly, they are amazing for it. She has more emotional energy than like twenty people combined I swear

@itcouldbelupus2842

Жыл бұрын

You think Patrick was doing a Gish gallop?

@Zed012

Жыл бұрын

And she should never change

@AlejandroPerez-mg3fc

Жыл бұрын

And that's incredibly entertaining to see

@takotratheratking7411

Жыл бұрын

i do that too

What amuses me about Patrick's rant against calling Batman's return to Gotham a plot hole is that he contradicts his own definition of what a plot hole is. Bane blows all the bridges and mounts armed guards around the island to make sure no one sneaks into Gotham. But Batman sneaks into Gotham without showing us how he did it. That violates, in Patrick's his own words, "a previously established rule about its own universe."

@ShadowMewto

10 ай бұрын

It doesn’t necessarily break an established rule, its not like bane put up a magical force field that surrounded Gotham or something, it just doesn’t show us critical information to the main characters journey

@555Soupy555

9 ай бұрын

imagine how sick that scene would be though him sneaking around unable to take anyone out due to everything being so well guarded and having to become the night, using cleverness and knowing this could be it if he fucks up!! kid me woulda been a batman fan on the spot

@ShadowMewto

9 ай бұрын

@@555Soupy555 Buddy it sounds like you just want to play Sly Cooper.

@meltingmug

9 ай бұрын

@@ShadowMewto Holy sh*t, I haven’t seen anyone mention Sly Cooper in ages. What an absolutely amazing game, I truly wish it had an official PC port, but sadly, y’know, Sony likes keeping their stuff to themselves, sooo… 😐

@AlastorD

8 ай бұрын

Late respond but people seem to forget that the last time we saw the Bat before Batmans capturing was when he parked it in the Batcave under Wayne Manor. Wayne Manor is outside the City and outside the occupied area. Bruce Wayne got back to Gotham because he learned to travel around even without money as established in Batman Begins and then uses the Bat to enter the occupied zone undetected.

The good ol’ year since upload internal debate of “have they quit, are they taking a break, or are they prepping some ass-destroyingly huge project?”

"to pick apart the logic of the villain's plan would mean totally disengaging from the story" yeah thats why.... plot holes? are bad? theyre jarring, and compel the audience to disengage from the story to try and work out its logic for themselves where they find it lacking. thats. thats not always the fault of the audience for Watching The Movie Wrong, sometimes plot holes really just are that distracting, which is why theyre a problem in the first place.

@chimominino5083

Жыл бұрын

Exactly! The irony of Patrick stating the reason why plot holes are such a problem, but totally missing the point himself...

@TF2CrunchyFrog

Жыл бұрын

Also, a lot of people these days seem to think anything not explicitely stated is a "plot hole". When a plot hole used to be very specifically a part of the plot or characters' behaviour that makes zero sense when you think about it, but can't be easily removed or explained away with some offscreen reasoning because the story would've gone a totally different way it is hadnt been there. But it's like a tapestry with a huge hole in the middle that you have to pretend isn't there, but you still see it and it blights the whole movie. Some plot holes are small and you can ignore them. But stuff like the scene in _Prometheus_ "The guy with the drones who just mapped the entirety of the inside of the alien spaceship and created a 3D model that all protagonists can access, including the captain of their own spaceships who is keeping tabs on everyone's location from the bridge ... is the exact guy who gets lost in the alien spaceship, despite the fact they just established 5 minutes prior _that the characters have a map"_ yeah that's a plot hole. It goes beyond "script writers forgot a character could do X" right into "we just showed the audience X exists and would solve the problem, and yet the character holding X in his hand ignores it exist while lamenting not having X".

I always assumed that Edna Mode has very little respect for others privacy. I mean she's been one of the few people who's in the know on a whole bunch of secret identities for many years. It also just seems to mesh with her character. She also doesn't respect personal space and these concepts are linked. Also, while Bob seemed surprised by the fact that she made all these suits, he did not seem surprised by her knowledge of his family that she should not know of. Including their kids' existence. Like she knew they had children, but hadn't seen each other since supers went into hiding, before they had them. And he didn't seem surprised by that. Sorry if any of that seemed garbled. It's 3 am and I can't sleep.

@schwarzerritter5724

Жыл бұрын

Bob is the kind of guy who would call everyone he trusts with his secret identity to tell them Violet just turned invisible for the first time.

@helenakri7282

11 ай бұрын

And, honestly, we are shown a couple of her interactions with Bob, surely there could be an off-screen moment when, after she felt the inspiration after working on a new suit she'd fish out (ei demand to know) if Bob is still with Elastigirl and, well, I don't think he'd just hold out on talking about his kids. Or at the very least he'd spill all the beans prompted by an offhand "how's the family?". His social circle is so small by that point, who else can he brag to about his son breaking the sound barrier or whatever.

@rowanphillips3497

10 ай бұрын

@schwazrzerritter5724 yeah thats what ive been assuming what happened

The one thing that grinds my gears is "You are watching movies wrong". Plot holes vary in how obvious they are, how easy they would have been to fix, how much of the plot they affect and perhaps other aspects. They are always a failure to some degree as an omniscient and supremely intelligent writer could always tell the set out story in a way that avoids any plothole. Sometimes plotholes are about minor details with little consequence and can happen if the writer doesn't spend 99% of their time rereading their previous work. People have different threshholds at which they consider a plothole negatively impactful or even detrimental. Saying that someone who has an even slightly different threshhold is watching movies wrong is plainly arrogant.

I just wanna point out a little thing about Patrick's defense of the Triwizard cup being the portkey that I feel is overlooked: spectacle. If they'd portkeyed any old object and sent Harry before then there wouldn't be any public presence to Voldemort's return, and given that Barty Crouch Jr is shown to be a very flashy Death Eater who revels in the fear and pain his master causes, you can fully picture him opting for one of the most public, most horrifying venues possible so the word of his Dark Lord's return can spread like wildfire. Choosing the Triwizard Cup has some obvious and attractive benefits: 1) If things pan out as they did in the film, the Boy Who Lived returns to the starting point hysterical about the return of Voldemort (and, thanks to his own willingness to share victory, a dead body) and the event is reported on far and wide as a disaster 2) If Voldemort is resurrected and succeeds in killing Harry, he can take the Portkey back with Harry's body in tow and a horrified crowd of witnesses can report that they saw the Dark Lord's return with their own eyes. 3) If Voldemort is resurrected and succeeds in killing Harry, he can leave the graveyard and at the starting point the crowd's excitement will start to wane rapidly as the time marches forward and no winner teleports back to the start. As time passes and they learn more there's a horror that starts to manifest, a student--a child in the care of Hogwarts has *disappeared* from school grounds in the middle of a massive public event, his body is found days or months later in a dark cemetery near campus with evidence of some dark ritual performed on him. Worse yet, this boy is Harry Potter, a 14 year old child who was never meant to compete in the tournament and is famous for, yanno, surviving a death curse by the Dark Lord. Rumors and speculations would mount as wizards speculate about the Dark Lord returning, or something worse, and all that because the Portkey that led Harry to Voldemort was staged in a very public venue. The Triwizard Cup is a win-win-win for possible outcomes as a Portkey, it's an extremely logical choice to create full spectacle and Barty Crouch Jr accounts for the biggest exploit to it (the fact that someone else could win and render the scheme worthless) by casting Imperio on one of the strongest contenders and using him to take out the competition. Patrick saying it "doesn't matter" is stupid both because it's anti-critical analysis and because there are significantly better defenses of this specific plot point. And I say that as someone that doesn't even like The Goblet of Fire that much

@rooty

4 ай бұрын

Usually that would be true of Voldemort. For example, his horcruxes would have been impossible to identify and track down if he'd used random bits of trash to store the fragments of his soul, but his colossal ego prevented him from doing that. Instead, he used highly prestigious historical artefacts and hid them in meaningful places linked to his personal history as well as wizarding history. It made them easily traceable and was his ultimate undoing. HOWEVER, his plot in Goblet of Fire was very different. It was supposed to be entirely secret. There's a whole scene in the book where dumbledore happily tells Harry that he has put a huge hole in voldemort's scheme by surviving the encounter and returning to tell everyone about his resurrection. Voldemort wanted to return in secret so he could re-establish his influence without interference. So it's still a plot hole that he didn't capture harry more surreptitiously.

@blackosprey2219

4 ай бұрын

Basically Voldy and all his followers are incredibly conceited show-offs who think they're so smart and strong that they're invincible. Considering the behavior of narcissistic criminals irl, this kind of grandiose stupidity is actually kind of believable.

@babymillennial2785

4 ай бұрын

@@rooty ngl I completely forgot about that detail and I'm kinda mad about it only because the whole thing clicks into place perfectly if you just keep Voldemort in character with his ego and have him use Barty Crouch Jr to make his entrance as absurd and flashy as possible since he should know what sort of follower Barty is. But I guess JKR couldn't help herself again...

As a hobbyist writer, another problem I have with the ‘plot holes don’t matter’ narrative is that it disrespects the amount of time writers put into making sure their stories are logically consistent and would hold up to scrutiny. Plot holes are potentially immersion-breaking and don’t need to be there; that’s enough to open them up to criticism even if they don’t necessarily ruin a story

@frogthetoad6773

Жыл бұрын

​​@@user_name_redacted ​@Name Redacted I agree with the sentiment for some people but you don't know enough about the guy's life to say that kinda stuff. Maybe he has his dream job, and he strictly wants to keep writing a hobby. Or writing isn't his dream job, just something he does as stress relief. So, I hope your comment helps someone but it lacks critical information to sent to it's intended for.

@-Rook-

Жыл бұрын

This is very true, there are authors that spend years revising and reviewing their work to perfect their stories, not only to make them consistent but to also make them compelling. Perhaps its the time constraints of having to squirt out the latest script for a 'blockbuster' sequel, or perhaps its just eroding capability and the hiring of genuinely poor authors.

@olserknam

Жыл бұрын

@@-Rook- It doesn't disrespect anything. You are free to put whatever amount of time and effort you want into detailing a certain aspect of a story. People not criticizing someone for doing less does not imply disrespect to you. Especially considering that movies, which are being discussed in this video, don't have nearly as much room to explain everything as literature. Not to mention that while the amount of effort put into a work may be admirable, at the end of the day, it should not be the only factor when talking about artistic merit.

@bluesides8323

Жыл бұрын

@@user_name_redacted Did you really imply that @Caitlin has a miserable life because they only write as a hobby and not as a job? Wtf

@alm2587

Жыл бұрын

@@user_name_redacted who ever said writing is their dream? what if they just like sometimes writing for fun? people are allowed hobbies, not everything has to be a career.

An easy solution to the quiet place waterfall scene is to have the son ask why they don’t live there and have Main Character explain he cannot build a suitable house or show that he tried or show a construction in progress. He has a goal of building them a house there but taking care of and feeding kids tends to get in the way of major construction projects. No to mention, most people lack the skills to build a house from scratch. Even rather handy types who can fix many things can't build a brand new house for 5 people from the ground up - especially in a post-apocalyptic scenario.

@Poliostasis

Жыл бұрын

People don't seem to realise this, but they keep saying "WHY DOn't yOU JUSt build a HOUSe in ThE watERFALL", ignoring how deafeningly loud it is, trying to build a house inside it seems neigh impossible for regular people. Plus, building a house near the waterfall means the sounds won't be completely muffled anyways, cause you gotta be practically inside or next to it for it to work properly. I think it's easy to assume the house was already pre-built and there, and it was far easier to sound proof it instead of making a brand new place near the waterfall that may or may not work all the time with a deafeningly loud WATERFALL right next to your ears as you try to sleep.

@xenophon5354

Жыл бұрын

@@Poliostasis Seems like a solid assumption to make that simply making due with an already well-built, well-provisioned, sustainable farm house is a rational preference to building a new house from scratch on unsuitable terrain. It would be a nightmare to try and build a log-cabin, about as good as he's going to get, while also providing for wife and children and trying to manage sound. Totally grant the film should have addressed it, but to frame it as the obvious choice makes perfect sense coming from modern people totally divorced from pre-modern living conditions.

@egbertmilton4003

Жыл бұрын

@@Poliostasis Fuck off. They can just have tents near the water fall, or look for a riverside property. When they have an actual baby being born, staying in the house is certain death, so go to the waterfall for the birth. The house was a terrible place to stay anyways, there's no proper heating or fortification, so why bother to stay where you will certainly die, instead of moving to the least risky place of them all. It's certainly possible to sleep as a waterfall falls, it just becomes background noise, so don't give me that nonsense. The place near the waterfall will work all the time compared to the unreliable house, and to pretend otherwise is embarrassing.

@devial9879

Жыл бұрын

​​@@xenophon5354 they're living in a place where farting too loud in your sleep has a decent chance of getting you and your entire family killed. I don't care how hard it is to build a house, living in a fucking tent is still preferable to "farting too loud will probably kill you"

@the03k

Жыл бұрын

There really shouldn't need to be a "solution" though because it's not even a problem. It is ironically a very good point made in the OG video that Exci failed to counter, and shows just how dumb audiences can be. There being many, many, very obvious difficulties in creating a living space near a waterfall that people just... didn't think about I guess? That even when making an hour long video essay countering someone's else's video about plot holes, Jay failed to think about. Like, yeah, people really can just be that fucking stupid.

Here's a fun fact. I described the creatures from a quiet place to my father (who has no idea about the movie because he's blind and can't watch movies) and literally his first idea for how to survive such an invasion was to live someplace where its really loud all the time because they couldn't hear you XD I didn't even have to bring up the concept of a waterfall within the plot. With literally no knowledge of the plot at all whatsoever, he already knew instinctively that it makes the most sense.

If your story goes to the trouble of setting up why something is difficult (in batman's case, lost his resources, dumped in distant location, his destination under hostile control and fortified) then it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect an explanation of some kind when the difficult thing is accomplished.

@BWMagus

Жыл бұрын

That's literally called "plot", yeah. All of that stuff seems as big an obstacle as dealing with Bane.

@valentinegonsalves7322

Жыл бұрын

My favourite plot hole is a goof up in a Jack Reacher book. Reacher and the female lead interview this CEO style lady into giving up what the bad guy is up to... They then leave. And the writer, Lee Child, realises Reacher never got the address to where they were headed. So he has Reacher and the female lead, literally turn the car around, go back, and get the address to this seperate off-the-books facility of the corporation that the bad guy is running illegal operations through. One the one hand, just redraft. On the other hand, cheers to the writer for acknowledging his mistake and keeping it all in.

I think the funniest part of the Dark Knight Rises example is, The Dark Knight established that Bruce knew a smuggler who could somehow get into Hong Kong airspace without being detected and they only needed to bring it up to explain how he got back to Gotham.

@TheNoonish

Жыл бұрын

Well that was also when he had access to all of his money and assets, including Fox.

@troyareyes

Жыл бұрын

@@TheNoonishtrue, but we also know from the beginning of batman begins that even without his money and name, he seems to have to streetsmarts to travel all over the world.

@TheNoonish

Жыл бұрын

@@troyareyes Well, a few things. For one, he wasn't trying to access a city that was completely closed off, he was just going places. Second, we can assume if he ever needed money, he still had access to it. He almost certainly had some degree of pocket money to pay for air travel. And thirdly, he wasn't on a tight schedule that required him to get somewhere before a bomb blew up. If he needed to get to Mongolia, or wherever he was at the start of that film, he had months or years to get there. It's ridiculous to say that because he's traveled the world before, that means he can get exactly where he needs to be without any issues. That scene leaves too many unanswered questions, and they didn't need it to happen that way. Just don't throw him in a hole on the opposite end of the world.

@troyareyes

Жыл бұрын

@@TheNoonish first, I always found the "the city was closed off" a little silly. its a city of millions of people and hundreds of miles of unsupervised coastline. just because they blew up some bridges doesn't mean the city was impenetrable. honestly that's more of a plot hole in banes plan than batmans. second, we have no reason to believe Bruce used any Wayne resources during his self exile. he also burned his wallet and gave all the money on him to a homeless man before he left. third, and I'm gonna be a little sneaky here, but we don't know that the timeline of bruces prison arc directly coincides with the events in Gotham day-to-day minute-to-minute. Also did Bruce even know about the bomb? Also where are we getting the "without any issues" from? I'm sure there were issues, but when the climax of the movie is just around the corner I don't really care to see a montage of him forging passports and picking pockets.

@TheNoonish

Жыл бұрын

@@troyareyes "Also where are we getting the "without any issues" from? I'm sure there were issues," But why have our hero dealing with significant issues off screen? It's part of the story, why is it not included in the story? I would say that it causes a hole if there's issues being solved for your characters off screen. You could just write a different story where those obstacles don't exist if you don't want to show the hero overcoming them.

"Some plot holes are nitpicks therefore all plot holes don't matter."

the funny thing about a die hard with a "logical protagonist" is that it exists in the form of a star trek episode: "starship mine"

One thing I notice you didn't mention about the Goblet of Fire scene with the Unforgiveable Curses. Mad Eye/"Evil David Tennant" isn't JUST forcing Neville to see how his parent were tortured out of sadism, he's doing it for a reason. By "accidentally" making him feel bad in class, he can make a show of trying to make amends by giving him a big ol' Herbology book. Neville eventually helps Harry with the second task, specifically because he had that book, just like Evil David Tennant wanted.

@IanBLacy

11 ай бұрын

That’s actually the Tenth Doctor but he has that virus thing from that Another Life show and it’s making him act bad temporarily

@johnnycrown5097

10 ай бұрын

And I don't like how he called the port key a plot hole... Yes you can place it on any object but you need the permission of the ministry of magic... They keep track of that, that's why in the deathly hallows, when the trio were on the run, they couldn't just use any type of teleportation or instant communication... So moody couldn't just make anything a port key... The place the port key is placed and where it's going to are all approved by the ministry, that's why they went to a random place to touch an old boot and not just any shoe in their house... Plus most especially, the trophy was always a port key to transfer them back to the outside of the maze so he the death eater guy just redirected the port key somewhere else... He didn't turn the trophy into a port key...

@johnnycrown5097

10 ай бұрын

And the irritating so called plot hole in the lord of the rings is also wrong (in fact, all the three plot holes that people say the lord of the rings have actually aren't)... The eagles can't just fly them to mount doom which is smack dab at the middle of Mordor because everyone seems to have forgotten that sauron has something against that which is a little something called fell beasts... The nazgul also have flying animals called fell beasts and who do you think would win between a dragon being ridden on the back by immortal beings and giant eagles who have their only way of fighting back in the air, their talons on their feet occupied with a bunch of squishy important humanoids??? The nazgul still control the skies and if they fall from their beasts, they won't die unlike our heroes... I'm tired of people not thinking before they say something and I'm tired of smart people listening to dumb people and believing them without thinking too much about it... These people don't know how to criticize and scrutinize their thoughts and they hate being wrong even if it's their own selves debunking them... And these people are literally all the critics before the EFAP generation... No one should be listening to any of them for information because they aren't smart enough to critic themselves... Look at plinkett's reviews on the star wars prequels... It was pure rubbish, amongst the 7 videos he made for the phantom menace, I think he got only 3 minor criticisms right, like the 3 were only basically nit-picks which I don't mind, I like when critics nitpick, because a flaw is a flaw, whether big or small and I don't even mind if you spend 5 hours on that small nit-pick, I'm under the believe that the Hollywood crew get paid way too much to even allow a mistake to get past them because do you think there's anything like a nitpick in your normal 9-5 job that pays you significantly less??? Why the hell would I allow millionaires get away with any single flaw just because his eager shills and consumers are telling me it doesn't matter, just throw your money at it regardless... But plinkett's reviews of the prequels were so fucking bad, my god, I can't still believe even smart people like Mauler swallowed everything up with such gusto, he was literally recommending it as a good content and not an extremely flawed rant for a Disney star wars sequel like trilogy instead, you know, a clone of the OT, to the point that he started making up flaws to make him s videos longer and seem like it had more depth and not a spillage of hot extremely from a n hateful contrarian... Which made Lucas sell the IP to Disney and they torpedoed the IP to the bottom blind f the abyss, all thanks to uneducated misinformed ignorant hateful prequel haters and they still have the audacity to blame Lucas for every bad thing Disney did with the IP because he sold it to them despite the prequel haters being the reason for him selling it because they hated him with a blazing passion for seriously no reason, even way more than they hate Disney now, and they even celebrated when Lucas sold it to drop sent and brainlessly sang the ignorant unscrutinized praise of the force awakens before they were told to rightfully hate that one too but not as much as the prequels, Lucas did it for the merchandise and money and greed whilst Disney very very badly copied pasted Lucas' first worldwide acclaimed masterpiece to the point of plagiarism from the heart with love... Fucking hypocrites... Please go watch the KZreadr icy the fire mage destroy plinkett's review completely... It's well structured and edited, and very funny and interesting... It's not like the other defenders of the prequels who use insults to defend their point or focus on other things that don't have to do with the story like cinematography... He was on point and very very polite and he didn't cut a single part of plinkett's reviews, including the abducting prostitute part, he kept everything in and directly answered everyone of them completely and thoroughly in simple understandable layman ways, all on point... I'm really not kidding you or overhyping this video... I seriously can't hype it enough... Yes he's a small KZreadr but he just started, that's why, but you don't have to subscribe to him, you don't have to commit to all the videos, just watch the first debunking video and I promise you you would be hooked (mauler is his biggest inspiration and he actually makes points like Mauler and jay) so please, go check out the videos and let's destroy plinkett's ignorant disinformed unintelligent ingenious bad faith hateful hit piece of the prequels... Let's try to get people to see how bad those videos were and stop being misinformed and stating fake plot holes from an ignorant unintelligent mind... Thank you for your consideration...

@ChristieBrewster

10 ай бұрын

@@johnnycrown5097 I gave the latest a few minutes, and the presenter doesn't understand the setup of how the Attack of the Clones review begins on a hypothetical about what a viewer might be anticipating from the movie before it comes out. I'm sure there's valid criticism among it, but that's a rocky start to begin on for a 'facts and logic' kind of topic. (I'm also just not big on reaction content, so hearing someone groan at a corny joke as their own comedic addition is not really gonna tickle my funnybone.)

@johnnycrown5097

10 ай бұрын

@@ChristieBrewster you're going to watch a movie... You're not supposed to expect anything other than a good consistent story... You shouldn't be expecting the writer to write what you're expecting... So you're actually not into logic, you're actually more emotional... You should have also started from phantom menace videos (they're shorter) considering that was the first in the prequels and would put his video on the attack of the clones in context...

Another thing I think Patrick misses about the community episode is that Abed's story only played out according to his own inner logic, whereas in a realistic (and good) scenario, different characters would not be on the same page on everything. That's why (good) writers obviously don't agree with every decision their character makes.

@calebshort4900

Жыл бұрын

thanks, Satan

@HerohammerStudios

Жыл бұрын

​@@calebshort4900 always the voice of reason

@tsukasa0802

Жыл бұрын

(good) is a subjective value judgement. Something being realistic doesn't make it (good). Enter the Spider-Verse is so surrealistic but I would give it the subjective evaluation of really fucking good, but that's subjective. Likewise, writer that you like are not automatically (good). That's an even more uselessly subjective statement.

@eidolon1426

Жыл бұрын

​@@tsukasa0802 A writer that consistently produces internally consistent stories would almost inherently be, by definition, "a good writer." I could subjectively HATE their stories for whatever personal preferences or ulterior motives you could hypothetically come up with, but that would not change the fact that the writer is of high quality, in that they are consistently producing products OF high quality. If there *is* such a thing as a "good *story,"* then there is surely such a thing as a "good *storyteller,"* being someone who is consistently successful at writing good *stories.* If 2+2+2=6, and 2+2=4, then therefore 2+4=6. The math doesn't change no matter my like or dislike of the individual numbers or equations.

@BWMagus

Жыл бұрын

@@tsukasa0802 No, it isn't. Writers have a job; those that can consistently perform that job are good, while those who fail are bad. Much like rocket scientists have a job, and those who build rockets that don't fucking explore on lift-off are good, compared to those who don't manage that task.

1:00:00 The funny thing is, "data takes on Hans Gruber" the appeal of that concept is part of why the John Wick franchise really works.

I’ve worked with audio for years and I was never even sure if in “A Quiet Place” that the waterfall would save them. Their screams are totally different frequencies from the waterfall, it would be very noticeable unless the waterfall was just unrealistically deafening.

One small nitpick with your video: you missed a chance to cite Picard's speech to Data where he finishes with something like, "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose; that is not a weakness, that is life." A great quote to live by, and incidentally a perfect counter for Patrick's "perfectly logical characters would make for a boring movie" argument.

@bearnaff9387

Жыл бұрын

That's the kind of story I always want to see - one where nobody holds the idiot ball. Unfortunately, the kind of minds that can produce that sort of story don't tend to write screenplays. The closest I've seen to a story where everyone attempts to satisfy their desires within the bounds of their ethics to the best of their ability, but nobody does dumb things to push the plot forward and nobody is one-dimensional if they get any exposure at all is the TV adaptation of the Murdoch Mysteries. It was always great to watch because I was constantly pleasantly surprised when characters _not_ do the stupid thing that would propel the plot, and instead things happen because someone needs them to happen for understandable reasons.

@gustavoaraujopenha8463

Жыл бұрын

@@bearnaff9387 Alderamin no Sky is an anime which don't make other characters dumbers so the protag seems intelligent like is common on the smart protag gender.

@krat2242

Жыл бұрын

and a good time to try reckless or risky tactics and throw the whole scene into a big scramble where our hero does eventually win through determination and sweat :3 When making the correct move will make u lose, do the opposite, make your opponent second guess his own decisions :3

@man4437

Жыл бұрын

This actually reminds me of something I had pointed out to me before: just because a choice doesn't work out doesn't necessarily mean it was bad. Think about it. If you want to, let's say, graduate from high school and you need a 90% grade on your final test, which is going to be more productive: getting wasted every night for a week, or studying every night for a week? Obviously the second, but if you then don't pass your test, does that mean you made the wrong choice? Obviously not. Less obvious example, should you "follow your dreams" or find a consistent career? There's a fairly overwhelming chance what you're truly passionate about, I'm sorry to say, will not work out. If (even against the fact that your economic power and capacity to earn more than a meager living is non-existent in the modern economy) your goal is to make as much money as possible, and you're not too big on your "passion", the choice can be fairly easy. If you want to succeed in something you actually believe in, you might go the other way. But if either of these doesn't work out, it can be due to numerous outside factors. Even if it is "your fault", the choice to take one of the two paths was still a calculated choice with an end goal in mind. The chance that a stable job doesn't work out is slim, it's still the correct choice if you want a consistent income, even if it doesn't work out. A passion project has a small chance of working out, it's still a choice made based on what you wanted to do and it not being successful doesn't make it a bad decision and it being successful in turn doesn't mean that anyone who does so will succeed (as celebrities love to lie to people)

@bananian

Жыл бұрын

​@@bearnaff9387 I mean idiots do exist and there are plenty of real life inspiration to draw from. 😂

Is knowing about the kids a plot hole? I just assumed she was rich and nosey.

@sucyshi

Жыл бұрын

It's not. Her not knowing about the kids isn't a pre-established fact so her knowing them doesn't contradict anything, therefore not a plot hole.

@CoolJoshido212

Жыл бұрын

@@sucyshi exactly

@Rowan_A_Boat

Жыл бұрын

@@sucyshi I think I remember Edna knowing about Bob's marriage, & the scene where she says "god you've gotten fat" indicates they haven't kept in touch, so she might not know about them having kids? If anything, I guess the real issue is how she knew the kid's *specific* powers & limitations. Also Edna definitely didn't know about Jack-jack not having powers. Meaning whatever her sources were, they weren't great.

@gracekim25

Жыл бұрын

@@Rowan_A_Boat eh she’s a genius and was probably pretty good at guessing 😂

@gracekim25

Жыл бұрын

I never questioned how she knew their powers. She probably studied their behaviour to prepare for every situation

I clicked on this video thinking it would be some sort of plot hole iceberg sort of thing. Instead, I was subjected to Patrick's video. I wish to go back to when I was unaware of his existence.

This was a great discussion of what was wrong with Patrick's take on plot holes, and I just wanted to add one observation. Back when I bought DVDs, I always enjoyed looking through the deleted scenes and seeing what had been left out of the final cut. Often there would be one or two scenes that clarified or explained a plot point, which involved some exposition. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened with A Quiet Place. Perhaps there's a whole scene where the characters talk about why they didn't move to the river. And then during the editing process, the decision was made to lose the scene because it lacked suspense or killed the pacing. And, it's often a reasonable decision to make. Plot holes can break viewer engagement, but so can expository dialogue. And there are rarely easy or perfect answers, especially with movies which are big and complex operations. This doesn't mean plot holes are inevitable or that it's unfair to discuss them. It's much dumber to pretend a person's subjective experience of a movie is somehow wrong. That's not how art works!

@sharpfang

7 ай бұрын

...then there are deleted scenes that *were* plot holes and got deleted for that reason.

@peffiSC2source

5 ай бұрын

Reminds me of the making-of scene of the Starwards prequels, where George Lucas realized they but too much stuff in the movies and they can't really take out any more of it to make better sense. I think I saw it in a portion of redlettermedias Mr. Plinkett review. That video series really taught me a lot about understanding movies and stories in general.

I think the thing which uncritical people most often miss, is that stories are written. Like, by people. Someone chose to have these plot elements in this order, and they could have easily chosen differently. That's why poor choices made in storytelling can be so frustrating or disappointing. A story isn't some inscrutable phenomenon we must accept as it is; in the case of failures in storytelling, things could have been better with more care and understanding towards the material.

@theomegajuice8660

Жыл бұрын

I also think people can forget that stories are made to be experienced. They're not simulations of possible worlds but a fleshed out expression of the writer's imagination. Often adding an explicit explanation of a tangential element of the story would not improve the experience of watching it. It's not worth sacrificing screentime, pacing or the emotional atmosphere of the moment to e.g. explain the exact buoyancy distribution of a floating door that can support the weight of one person out the water but not two.

@allexjr1270

Жыл бұрын

God, I wish I could give this a thousand likes because I agree with this soo much. It really infuriates me when people make an argument "Well humans aren't always logical, we make mistakes" Cause, like, no? those aren't people, they're characters in a piece of fiction that has been meticulously worked on over a long period of time When a character does something it's because the writer made them do it, when it's a stupid mistake that is very OoC then it's not the character's fault, it's the writer's. And those stories aren't set in stone. And if it doesn't make sense? no one's stopping the author from rewriting it

@aaronmueller1560

Жыл бұрын

@@theomegajuice8660well the great thing about movies and visual formats (though this could even be done through non-visual formats) is that talented people can convey this information to an audience without taking a break in the story to give them a science lesson. For the example given, all you need to do is have something that approximates the size a piece of wood would have to be to support one person, and then support that by showing them both climbing on and it starting to sink. This tells the audience that it has the capacity to support one but not two people, and for those who have extra knowledge about how large a piece of wood should be to do that it doesn’t break their immersion either. This is an incredibly easy solution to see that doesn’t break the “flow” (the pacing or tone) of the story. But you know what does break the flow of a story? When you can’t find a way to integrate information that is crucial for the audience’s understanding of what the stakes of the situation are. If the audience is never given any indication that this floating door can only keep one person’s weight afloat, they will be left confused as to why there is any conflict in that moment, and there will be large disconnect between the audience and the film. The same is true of actual plot holes (mistakes in the writing, not just omitted information).

@SpektralJo

Жыл бұрын

​@@theomegajuice8660 the important part here is tangential. If something is central to the plot then it should be adequately explained

@theomegajuice8660

Жыл бұрын

@@SpektralJo Yeah I mean any honest answer to the question "Do plot holes matter?" is "The ones that matter do matter and the ones that don't... don't". As long as it's proportionate and not to the detriment of looking through other lenses for critical analysis (like theme, tone, symbolism etc.) then it's all in good fun!

The issue I have with Patrick's argument on a Quiet Place about how characters acting logically would be boring is... then just don't establish there's a waterfall nearby as you say. The story works perfectly fine if you ignore the waterfall. The story setup its own plot hole... just don't have it. Or add some dialogue that explains they would move to the waterfall but they discovered it too late and moving a pregnant woman at this stage would be a bad idea. Completely maintains the story and the characters are acting logically and emotionally at the same time.

@RogueAstro85

7 ай бұрын

Yes! Or have that be the climax. Have the dad discover the waterfall but make it really far away and they need to get there because the wife is about to go into labor. Then you could even have a scene of the father and one of his kids head to the waterfall to scope it out and have a cathartic moment where they get to yell and feel relieved for the first time in over a year. Them making the trek with a very pregnant woman would be added tension and watching them adapt their quiet lifestyle to accommodate camping on the journey. They figure out how to make a new home by the waterfall in the end and the family is happy. For an added tension scene have there be a drought and the waterfall starts to trickle.

@abbsz

6 ай бұрын

I always assumed they couldn’t move near the waterfall bc there wasn’t a house there. They moved into a made house. They would have to make their own house if they moved near the waterfall which would require them to make noise away from the waterfall in order to get materials.

The whole description of the Defense Against The Dark Arts lesson in Harry Potter and the Goblet Of Fire just reminds me that you can't "turn your brain off" and "just enjoy things" and you can't tell people that "they're just looking for flaws" and "don't take it that seriously" or whatever variation you want to use. In order to see the actual triumphs of a writer, you HAVE to engage with the art and think about it. Trying to find the good in something WILL lead you to its flaws, which is why as a writer you need to reduce those flaws to as few as possible

@TOONYBOY

7 ай бұрын

To elaborate on this, when someone highlights a criticism, the same part of your brain that accepts it as a genuine flaw is the same part of your brain that's looking for a positive in that scene. You're only going to accept that something is a flaw when you have tried and failed to find a rational answer for something

I know Jay apologizes the intro for being so controversial and turning many away, and while I agree that was probably a bad decision, I can't help but feel it's very poetic given the rest of the video.

The funniest bit about the Martha complaints is that it's a *real-life coincidence.* Two different writers on two different books years apart named two characters the same name. Now that making Batman pause and completely change his mind? That's a contrivance.

@kingkaza

Жыл бұрын

Ye but the real reason is The multiverse so......shut up

@MakeVarahHappen

Жыл бұрын

@@kingkaza what do you mean the real reason is the multiverse? The real reason is that two different writers named different characters the same name.

@kingkaza

Жыл бұрын

@@MakeVarahHappen well isn't that dc and marvels excuse If something changes well it is clearly not the same earth

@MakeVarahHappen

Жыл бұрын

@@kingkaza do you think that the universe changed in between the shot where Batman holds the spear and the shot where he reacts to the name Martha being said? What are you talkin about my dawg?

@kingkaza

Жыл бұрын

@@MakeVarahHappen is called trolling my guy

The Alien acid scene being included was funny. I mean, that is exactly how acid works. Acid can only dissolve so much material until it neutralizes itself, which it always does eventually. So it would actually only be a plothole if the little splot of acid kept eating through the ship and never stopped. Btw. the only plotholes that are really egregious imo are when things contradict the laws of nature as established by the setting, like a magical acid that never stops dissolving stuff in an otherwise wanting to seem realistic sci-fi setting.

@LtPulsar

Жыл бұрын

Sort of. If the acid had simply been strong enough, that small amount might have been capable of eating all the way through the outer hull without being neutralised completely.

@Zepher0987

Жыл бұрын

People really do think acid is limitless corrosion magic and not a chemical reaction.

@ZenoDovahkiin

Жыл бұрын

@@LtPulsar Which is why the crew reacted the way they did.

@Gravewhisper

Жыл бұрын

@@LtPulsar hardly, even superacids have their limits, especially when eating through metals.

@pyropulseIXXI

Жыл бұрын

@@LtPulsar It is amount, not 'strength.' It is used up by reacting; the strength of that reaction doesn't magically make it go through more material. 1 mL of acid, whether strong or weak, can only react through a given amount of matter before it is 'used up.'

If jay married famous Chinese actress Zhang Ting that would be ExciTing.

as a producer the way you have your mic attached to your shock mount is technically correct but is giving me a range of anxieties

As someone who has also had this video living rent-free in their head for years, I appreciate your service

@CoolJoshido212

Жыл бұрын

same here!

@mightyrobot42

Жыл бұрын

That video is almost single-handedly responsible for keeping me from subscribing to Nebula.

@nenmaster5218

Жыл бұрын

Plot Hole Rabbit Hole kzread.info/dash/bejne/lW2MypmYiNnUdqw.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/anZ9xaOTqKnMosY.html

@MadRoadDriving

Жыл бұрын

Same here. I found that video so obnoxious I actually unsubscribed from Patrick’s channel. And that’s despite agreeing with his larger point (that at the time, there was way too much complaining about “plot holes”).

@itcouldbelupus2842

Жыл бұрын

@@MadRoadDriving have you resubscribed since then to see all the great stuff he's been doing this past year or so?

I think the better assumption for the Incredibles is that after she made Bob's suit, she wanted to make more suits for fun so she looked into Helen and found out she has kids too.

@nenmaster5218

Жыл бұрын

Plot Hole Rabbit Hole kzread.info/dash/bejne/lW2MypmYiNnUdqw.html kzread.info?search_query=Multiverse+of+Madness%3A+An+Unbridled+Cataclysm+ kzread.info/dash/bejne/anZ9xaOTqKnMosY.html

@helicopter_traffic

Жыл бұрын

well yes, but she wouldn’t find out about the powers? they’re kept highly secret by the government

@bookwermofthefandoms

Жыл бұрын

And also found their clothes sizes?

@meganek0597

Жыл бұрын

@@bookwermofthefandoms She is THE Edna

@vidmastereon

Жыл бұрын

A quick fix would be to have helen ask her how she got all this information on her kids with edna saying how

The pregnancy in A Quiet Place criticism irks me. People get pregnant, it happens, and in a society where there seems to be little to no medical care, how was Emily Blunt's character meant to end that pregnancy? It's not like she can go to a doctor and request a termination.

@liliesaregoodfortheliver2954

Жыл бұрын

I thought she got pregnant before the monsters arrived.

@samlewis6487

10 ай бұрын

They could just... not have sex. It's not difficult. It's actually really easy to not get pregnant when that could literally get you killed very very easily. It won't be fun exactly, but it's not difficult.

@karamarakamarama

9 ай бұрын

I know a way

@ImortalZeus13

9 ай бұрын

@@liliesaregoodfortheliver2954 I don’t believe this is true. She’s been pregnant for a while, but this family has been surviving in the woods for at least a year, i though.

@liliesaregoodfortheliver2954

9 ай бұрын

@@ImortalZeus13 oh, I wasn't clear on the timeline. Thanks

Of course, the issue in TLJ isn't that Holdo didn't trust Finn and Poe with the plan. It's that she didn't explain why, despite the film presenting a number of potentially good reasons for her not to (Poe betrayed orders and was demoted, his trusted ally Finn was a stormtrooper a fortnight ago, she doesn't know either of them, etc). The real plot issue is that when asked if there's a plan she gives no answer, rather than saying "there is a plan, but I am only sharing it with officers I trust, which isn't you".

@byron2FZ

10 ай бұрын

Also I think the BVS spear issue is cleared up by the fact that when Clark grabbed it, Diana was busy holding Doomsday back with her lasso which was the main reason he could get into position to stab him in the first place. But like you said later about the TLJ laser thing, those things only matter insomuch as the viewer is actually made to care about those things by the film itself. And if they don't care, those visual or commented explanations won't be remembered or noticed by the audience.

1:15 Ok as someone who has watched the incredibles backwards and forward for over 2 decades, it is implied they were still talking to Edna when Dash was born. Violet's birth probably wasn't too far from the super's ban. Even slightly bleeding over. So they could've stayed in contact until a few years after. Also Bob could've mentioned how the wife and children were doing at the first patch job scene off camera. Considering she was at their wedding it makes sense she at least got cards knowing of their first two children.

@rudolfambrozenvtuber

Жыл бұрын

Keep watching

@joelv2

Жыл бұрын

9:29

@HeyJay2000

Жыл бұрын

@PhileasLiebmann True. Like it really wouldn't be that hard for Edna to see how Bob and Helen are doing with out actually seeing Bob or Helen. She could have even hired someone to spy on them. Maybe she found where Bob works then asked a assistant to follow him home and then tell her what they see.

@soulsearcher9620

Жыл бұрын

@@HeyJay2000 She's shown to be very wealthy, with a high interest in superheroes and of course she almost immediately agrees to make a suit for Bob because she enjoyed the work. Yeah not too much of a stretch, even if it could've used a line about it.

@Tijikiotec

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I think it's fair to assume that stuff, but it's also fair to see it as a plot hole. I'm fine with just assuming Edna did research and found out on her own. If I recall she was excited after making the first suit and seemed to revel in what each of the other suits could do. She probably used their family as a challenge to make suits for a bunch of different powers.

About the waterfall and making mistakes: It would mean they'd been making the same mistake for years on end. Everytime they went to the waterfall to vent, or think about going to the waterfall to vent, they never ever went "man, it would be nice if we could make noise all the time, like we do at the waterfall."

@danielshore1457

Жыл бұрын

I think the problem is with arguing with they should have moved to the waterfall is that they have no shelter or insulated warmth there. Outside of the monsters it's not practical to live there with children and a newborn like bacteria infections and exposure still exist.

@rudolfambrozenvtuber

Жыл бұрын

​@@danielshore1457 Okay but that's kind of besides the point? Patrick views it as a mistake apparently

@schwarzerritter5724

Жыл бұрын

People get used to danger. After a while, they will prefer the comfort of a house over the safety of a tent near the waterfall. People in real life live in areas that are prone to natural disasters.

@schwarzerritter5724

Жыл бұрын

@@rudolfambrozenvtuber That is correct. Dropping a 5-pound object is something you have more control over than a natural disaster.

@TheRedstonian

Жыл бұрын

Also the fact that, like... It'd be absolutely hell to set up a farm up by the waterfall, and chopping down trees to make room for it is not exactly a quiet event. Definitely audible over the waterfall, versus the farmhouse they already have set up.

I think the big thing that people who defend media by making up explanations for how the accusations of plot holes could be reasonable miss is this; Unspoken before every mention of plotholes is this pretext. "Given what we know,". It's generally left unsaid and assumed but I guess a lot of people miss that. It's not that people pointing out plot holes don't think there's any possible scenario where having a baby is something characters would reasonably do. It's that the film does neither show nor tell us those reason. Given what we know, why didn't they move to the waterfall? Given what we know, how did Bateman return to Gothic City? This is why it's called a plot *hole* after all. It's not that you cannot get from Point A to Point B, it's that the connective narrative tissue between them is missing, that there is a *hole* in the *plot.* And it's not your job to fill in that hole, it's the writer's job. It's literally what they are paid for.

@enderkatze6129

10 ай бұрын

Hm yes, Bateman Returns to Gothic City

@Shenaldrac

10 ай бұрын

@@enderkatze6129 The misspell was intentional.

@fredericksmith7942

8 ай бұрын

@@ShenaldracIt was very funny. NOT!!!!!

@vaclavjebavy5118

6 ай бұрын

@@fredericksmith7942 What would we do without elementary schoolers

@themug406

5 ай бұрын

​@@fredericksmith7942Youre just mad you didnt understand the joke either

if Patrick Willems made logical decisions, there wouldn't be a video

I actually agree that the Edna thing isn't really a plot hole, there's a lot of explanations how she would know, i.e "Money", "ties to the government", "having actually been in contact with the family just not seen them in person for a while" etc. It's still "plausible" while supporting the plot, and I think plot holes are when things are "implausible" just to make the plot happen.

@SSJLucas117

Жыл бұрын

There's also the fact that it's possible that both Dash and Violet got their powers when they were very young, given that Jack Jack got his powers as a baby and prior to that part in the movie they thought he didn't have any powers. This means that she could have learned about their powers before not talking with them for awhile. And that assumes she doesn't get visits from Helen from time to time, which we can assume she does given what she says to her after beating Helen with a newspaper.

@nenmaster5218

Жыл бұрын

Plot Hole Rabbit Hole kzread.info/dash/bejne/lW2MypmYiNnUdqw.html kzread.info?search_query=Multiverse+of+Madness%3A+An+Unbridled+Cataclysm+ kzread.info/dash/bejne/anZ9xaOTqKnMosY.html

@realistic_delinquent

Жыл бұрын

Bob visits Edna at her home to get his old suit repaired. It would be weird if he didn’t leave without at least bringing them up.

@joelochoa2340

Жыл бұрын

The real nitpick/plothole is how did she know the kid's exact measurements. They are constantly growing and I doubt most parent can off the cuff tell you the exact waist/chest/wrist/ankle/thigh/neck/height measurements for their still growing kids. So you have to assume she did some research to get that info since she had not seen them in person for years (or at the very least a while) before making the suits. The powers make sense, Bob probably commented on them in passing, but the fitting would have been impossible to get as perfectly as she did without them visiting her and getting meticulously measured recently, which makes this implausible and plot hole. A really tiny one that no one in their right mind would really care about except maybe tailors. Reply

@117Ender

Жыл бұрын

@@joelochoa2340 the only counter is, their mom is eslastic girl, meaning her suit stretchs and etc and still goes back to being form fitting. so what if that material is used, that fits the body, thus at most, its the height that is issue, but that could be solved, cause ppl use pixels to measure characters to figure out their height, so she could have done some math to get their heights...does it seem absurd, sure, more absurd vs superpowers not really, could the twists be the edna has a superpower for measurements, that she can see a picture, and know exactly how big/tall/wide/mass etc. maybe but this plothole theory while it points out something, that isnt explained on screen, but most ppl will forgive the logisitics of that happening, the point being is an audience is willing to forgive logistics of something, to keep the story from going on tangent or side quest of how edna figured it out, cause shallow answers, raises more questions. so leaving the question alone at the smallest point, how did the superhero's costume designer that has created multiple suits for mulitple powers, find out the powers and measurements of x characters? parents talk? share pictures?post on fb? idk the point is that isnt story breaking, but also an interesting spin off, like jack jack and edna would have been great characters to explore...

I think it’s completely reasonable and character accurate to say that Edna would know not only about their kids and powers, but their exact measurements as well

@noodlekeeper5150

11 ай бұрын

I assume she's met the two older kids at some point, and if not. That she either accessed a super database or just spied on them.

@rmsgrey

7 ай бұрын

Yeah, the family has been part of a government program for a decade or two. Anyone with enough clearance can probably find out way more than just their powers...

@amwhik

7 ай бұрын

also, it's possible Edna and Bob just...talked. they are old friends so it's likely they also had a bit of smalltalk outside the moments we see, and general questions about life/family aren't uncommon

@DrazkurHW

5 ай бұрын

Any reason you can think of is valid because the movie works perfectly without explaining it AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, the movie would not benefit from explaining that... Because it's not the point. If you get distracted by that so much that you call it a plot hole, get checked

Plot Contrivance: It's too convenient for that to have happened -> "Yeah, they could've written that scene better" Plot Hole: It was supposed to be IMPOSSIBLE for that to have happened -> "Shut up, that doesn't matter" Fuck, that single analysis destroys the whole video, impressive

In regards to the Goblet of Fire "plothole" there are 3 main reasons why he doesn't portkey a random object, 1: he has to guarantee 100% nobody else will touch it, possible, but could be hard in a packed school and 2(more importantly): Harry getting to do the tournament early makes people distrust him more, and one major late-stage part of voldermort's plan is turning as much of hogwarts as possible, into death eaters, and if they don't like their 'savior' they are more likely to trust him. 3: Major parts of his plan also require people to not know he is back(which also happens to make the ministry distrust Harry), something that won't be easy to hide if Harry suddenly vanishes in the middle of class, than returns covered in wounds claiming voldermort is back or if he goes to the bathroom and returns wounded shouting the same stuff.

@ImortalZeus13

7 ай бұрын

I thought the implication of the Goblet being tampered with was that only a very powerful wizard would be able to do so, and Harry doesn't seem to have that ability. Moreso, Harry never expresses a desire to actually want to compete and actively voices against competing. Why would Harry's addition to the tournament make HIM more suspicious, if he is telling everyone every step of the way that he doesn't want it? Also, you can still totally guarantee that Harry would be the only one to touch the port key if you managed to get ahold of an object that you know for a fact he'd be the first one to touch. Like, for example, an article of clothing in his dresser, his glasses, or basically anything that only serves a purpose to Harry. Sure, you risk the incredibly small chance that someone might touch it, but I believe that enchanting Harry's glasses is still a safer bet than making a trophy the port key and then expending the effort required to rig the tournament in his favor. And if the excuse for this is "it would be difficult to steal a personal object of Harry's" I call bullshit. There's invisibility cloaks and levitation in this universe. Surely a powerful wizard (Like Evil David Tennant) would be able to steal it in the middle of the night and cast the port key enchantment upon it?

@P1utusPaints

7 ай бұрын

@ImortalZeus13 for your first point, you're 100% right, it shouldn't make people dislike/distrust him, but they do, remember the potter stinks badges, and, I can't say anything about the books, but in the film, he's getting dirty looks from loads of students, even his best friend was annoyed with him for being in the tournament. And for your second point, you're also right, no 1 of the point I mentioned works as a reason, but together they do, if Harry wakes up and takes his glasses, in front or not in front of any other students, then reappears wounded claiming Voldarmort is back, he's got the evidence of vanishing and reappearing wounded.

@BurgerWyeister20

6 ай бұрын

​​@@ImortalZeus13haven't seen this movie in a while. However, Jay's pointed out in another video that Moody could've just pulled Harry aside after class and had him touch the object he made a port key. The solution is actually pretty simple.

@macgeorge8229

4 ай бұрын

Lets not forget voldie is a drama queen as well

One thing to say about the Harry Potter thing: It was probably not mentioned in the Movie (I don't remember anymore), but at least in the books it was mentioned that Portkeys don't work on Hogwarts (same as apparating and probably any kind of teleportation-like magic), so any other Portkey wouldn't work. BUT the trophy at the end of the maze was always meant to be a Portkey that brings the winner back to the beginning (to show everyone the winner), which is also why Harry and dead Cederic were greeted by a band and all such. So yeah, with that context, it makes a lot of sense that they would try to make Harry win the Tournament, because all they had to do was to change the Portkey to teleport the winner to Voldemort, as that is the only place/portkey that works withing the premises of Hogwarts.

@StarWarsomania

Жыл бұрын

Plus, once Voldemort finishes off Harry Potter and finishes revealing in how Evil (TM) he and his Death Eaters are, they have a working Portkey that will take them right to the center of Hogwarts, where Dumbledore, the Minister of Magic, and every other important magical figure is helpfully convened to be taken out at once, totally unsuspecting. They will be handicapped by trying to protect the children, whereas Voldemort doesn’t give a fuck if children die during his coup.

@vitorschein8073

Жыл бұрын

Why not aproach Harry in the quidditch world cup, outside Hogwarts and just start throwing lots of enchanted objects at him until one hit and it is done without having to count on loads of luck and a year of waiting, since the guy that is involved in the plan was already there, also if you are willing to wait an entire year, couldn't he just wait for the next vacation and kidnap Harry outside Hogwarts without anything to do with the cup?

@Cyberleader672

Жыл бұрын

@@vitorschein8073 First point has a great risk to it. If Crouch attacks Harry and gets caught then Dumbledore will find a weak, defencless Voldemort and easily imprision him. The tournement works so well because almost everything Crouch does is also what Mad Eye would do i.e Making sure Harry survives the tasks. Second point, Harry is protected during the holidays. The Tournament is the only place Dumbledore can't put any security on him because the Minisrty wants the games to be interfered with

@vitorschein8073

Жыл бұрын

@@Cyberleader672 but he clearly isn't protected on summer since he and his cousin are attacked by dementors in order of the Phoenix, couldn't it be done then? Cause many things could have gone wrong with the cup plan

@Cyberleader672

Жыл бұрын

@@vitorschein8073 The Dementors weren't sent by Voldemort. They were sent by Umbridge who works for the Ministry and knows about the protection. And yes, things could go wrong during the cup but almost nothing that would reveal Mad Eye as Crouch.

I had the impression that she kept in touch with at least Robert. He strikes me as a guy who would reach out and tell old friends about major life things such as birth of kids, development of their powers etc. Now, I'm writing this comment one minute into the video. Time to actually watch the thing to see if this was ever adressed...

@HORSESNDOGS9

Жыл бұрын

I was thinking the same thing

@stigmaoftherose

Жыл бұрын

I always assumed she was some sort of spy who knew everything, even including Jack Jack's pawers.

@patchmoulton5438

Жыл бұрын

@@stigmaoftherose Same. I had assumed that she kept up with all of her super associates, even if it wasn't direct contact. We see she is rich beyond belief so I imagine she would have assets that could do that for her.

@canniblanch

Жыл бұрын

I feel like Edna has all the resources and power (no pun intended) to keep tabs on her clients' lives whether or not they kept in touch too

@monkeydetonation

Жыл бұрын

I have never heard anyone refer to mr incredible as robert lol

I make a difference between "logical" and "rational". The big difference is that rational only carries the weight of "true to their motivations", whereas logical is understood as bringing out the old chalkboard every time the scooby-doo villain appears. Only "smart" characters are expected to be logical. But every character is expected to be true to their own motivations. Unless you make it clear that they're having some sort of panic episode and just act on primal instinct.

The way I see it, plot holes are like pot holes. Really small ones (like the example in The Incredibles) are minor bumps that you don't notice. But big ones can leave a huge impact and have the potential to seriously damage your car (the plot).

Edna knowing the powers doesn’t even seem like a plot hole to me. She designed a suit for JackJack without the parents even knowing the powers. So it makes sense she knows things about the others.

@valentinegonsalves7322

Жыл бұрын

That's Jay's point. The rest of that movie is so good, you do not notice. But if you did...if it got in the way of your enjoyment...then... It doesn't make it a bad movie. Just that its a thing that should have been addressed. Compared to Rise of Skywalker. The dagger is the shape of one piece of wreckage of the Death Star that's been lying on this planet for three decades. Amd somehow Palpatine returned.

@joshbuoy8661

Жыл бұрын

@@valentinegonsalves7322 What? Unless I’m missing something it seems that you missed Dillion’s point. I think what they’re basically saying is, “X happened, so it makes sense that Y is probably true. Therefore Y is not a plot hole.” which means Jay’s point you mentioned doesn’t apply for this case. X = Edna designing a suit for Jacjack without the parents knowing his powers Y = Edna knowing the other family members’ powers

@DillonChichester

Жыл бұрын

@@joshbuoy8661 ^^^^

@valentinegonsalves7322

Жыл бұрын

@@joshbuoy8661 Nah. I was agreeing with Dillion. I was expanding, not disagreeing. Given a chance I'd rather have minor slip-ups like this that are something a few people can catch, rather than a glaring gap in logic and reason like Rise of Skywalker.

@potchatokpotchatok6084

Жыл бұрын

I think his suit wasn't for superpower it was just protective

Riker is "emotionally driven" in the same way 90% of my teenage years were spent going between the bathroom and bedroom due to my "high emotional drive".

@ClarkKentai

Жыл бұрын

Dude same, my biceps looked awesome though

@Boredman567

Жыл бұрын

"Riker to Bridge: If you need me, I'll be in Holodeck 4."

@tryhardfinessedyou

Жыл бұрын

High emotional drive. I loled irl

@level3xfactor

Жыл бұрын

The R.I.K.E.R Method

But even Vulcans have emotions. It is a misnomer to think they are emotionless. They just suppress their emotions with logic. This is quite well shown in the episode Amok Time. When Spock thinks he killed Kirk and is resigning his commission Kirk surprises him with being alive. And then Spock smiles…then immediately composes himself and pretends it never happened. I recommend watching the scene, it is something I have never forgotten. Because, Kirk is his friend. And Vulcans do have emotions.

It's honestly amazing someone made an entire video about plot holes without actually ever discovering what a plot hole is

In the Harry Potter books it's established many times that Hogwarts has strong magical protections and that you cannot freely teleport in an out. The portkey was an exception since it was allowed as part of the contest, and the villain took advantage of that. There is a subset of plot holes created by adaptations, in which the explanations are lost during the adaptation process.

@MinecraftImplosion

Жыл бұрын

still counts as plot hole , within the film

@jcs5347

Жыл бұрын

it's established two books later still a problem in the book it comes from.

@pikapowns

Жыл бұрын

​​​@@jcs5347h LMAO that's the book lag that JK does. Like when she added time travel everyone was complaining about what happened to TIME TRAVEL after the next book came out so she had Neville knock over the shelf that had all the time turners in existence.

@jaydenc367

Жыл бұрын

@@jcs5347 not really

@TheWAYF

Жыл бұрын

Umm... No? Why would the tournament allow a special tournament exception for portkeys when they DIDN'T KNOW there was going to be a portkey?

I’m about three minutes in and can already tell this is the equivilant of “Thinking of a better comeback as you let the shower water just fall over you unmoving” and im so here for it letsgooo

I think this all boils down to "If your story doesn't work without logical inconsistencies, write a better fucking story." It drives me mad how many people act as if they're physically incapable of imagining the story panning out a different way that doesn't involve bad writing.

whats interesting is when i dungeon master i think about things i want to happen, issues with how that would occur, and ways to make those issues go away. for instance, i wanted the adventures to ransack an abandoned kingdom, but in a world of magic and adventurers, the likelihood they just stumble across it and nobody else does before them felt way too stupid. so i create barriers that are story relevant that only these adventurers, through some challenge, are able to accomplish. such as the kingdom being surrounded by thorns, sleeping beauty style, that one of the adventurer's unique histories allows them to remove. saying "if you want the kingdom to be unransacked, jsut make it unransacked, its in service to the story!" can be supremely unsatisfying and bring the party out of the story in the first place. "you're saying we found this awesome loot in an abandoned kingdom that everyone knows has been abandoned for 100 years?" supremely unsatisfying. this was simple problem when making a story, lots of other problems can be way trickier to figure out, but i enjoy sitting there and thinking about how I can make story beats that have sufficient justification and context, and usually taking the time to think about these things will introduce more interesting ideas, even ones more interesting than the story beats you originally had. as a rule, stories will get better the more time you put into making them make sense, not worse.

This feels like I'm watching an Hbomberguy owning Nostalgia Critic. So to say great fun, the video was very entertaining!

Oh my god THANK YOU for this video. This feels like the single dose of sanity in a world that can only go "lol plot hole bad movie" or backlash with "plot holes don't matter!" This is actual common sense and critical thinking about how stories are made up and what we can enjoy about them. I've had my fair share of annoyances with people who, in backlash to cinemasins, start saying plot holes don't matter at all, which is just such a blatantly silly take on the face of it that it feels extremely validating to watch this video. Fantastic work!

@Shenaldrac

Жыл бұрын

Which is weird because Cinemasins doesn't talk about plot holes, they're nit pics, and most of them are just outright lies anyway. No one should watch their stuff tbh.

@eidolon1426

Жыл бұрын

​@Shenaldrac A "nitpick" and a "plothole" are not mutually exclusive, and a "nitpick" would still classify as "a *valid* criticism" in some form or another, so it's not generally fair to say that CinemaSins "talks about nitpicks." It's... *sort of* true, in a way. They are *TRYING* to talk about flaws of any kind they can think of... *sometimes...* But mostly, they are either invalid *attempts* at some kind of criticism, be it "plothole" or other, and the rest of the runtime is filled with blatant lies where they aren't even trying to talk about *valid* criticisms, or half-assed jokes, which allegedly aren't intended to be considered *actual* attempts at criticism either... Basically, they suck, and saying that they deal with "nitpicks" is giving them significantly more credit than they've earned. I don't actually disagree with the general premise you were shooting for though. I'm just adding to the topic of conversation.

@Shenaldrac

Жыл бұрын

@@eidolon1426 Yeah that's fair. I put in less brainpower than I could have. The fact that they just make shit up is so.... awful. Like their big defense against criticism is that it's "not meant to be critique of films, it's satire of people who nitpick films!" but like... people who nitpick films (and admittedly I'm guilty of that, I'm not very fun to watch movies with) don't just make things up! They're shit. They're shit and also their claims that it's not real criticism are bunk, since their "actual" videos they do where they are talking about films they see contain the _same critiques that their normal videos do!_ I'm sure you're aware of all this, but hey. I enjoy an opportunity to bitch about how awful CinemaSins are.

The Batman defense is like if Luke and Obi-wan decided to rescue Leia, and in the next shot they're already on the Empire spaceship.

@SolarDragon007

Жыл бұрын

It would be like if they immediately cut to Frodo and Sam being in Mordor right after they initially leave the Shire.

@arcats9004

Жыл бұрын

That honestly would be funny gag in a comedy

@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786

Жыл бұрын

"The Batman defence" reminds me of a certain courtroom tactic by defence attorneys...

I hate takes like this that look at works of art in too black and white a manner and are also blatantly anti-intellectual. I'm not a genius, not by any means, but I really appreciate film analysis and critique because it makes me appreciate good art better and understand what exactly it is about bad art that is bad. Now I know that's mostly subjective, but it encourages critical thinking which Patrick here actively discourages. It would be fine if his argument was that *some* plot holes are *mostly* insignificant and don't affect the plot in any major way, but saying all plot holes never matter is advocating for us to actually just turn our brains off when watching something. Some people prefer to enjoy their media that way and that's valid, but at the very least if that is your preference then understand it as such; a preference. Some people, like myself, vibe more with a piece of art by paying close attention than by thoughtlessly watching moving images and sounds. TL;DR You can personally prefer not to analyze movies when watching them, just throwing it on as a way to relax, but don't criticize others for enjoying movies in a more mentally engaging way, even if that means they're more critical. Edit: Okay so Patrick says he doesn't want his stance to make you not think critically about movies, but instead he wants you to focus on what actually matters, but his whole attitude toward plot holes up to that point suggest otherwise. Also in some genres, thinking about potential plot holes is part of the point, like Jay points out

To me: the thing I hate most about this story is that Patrick seems to think that bad things can ONLY happen if people are stupid. Like, he doesn’t even mention the possibility that even if you do everything right: BAD THINGS CAN STILL HAPPEN. I could do everything possible to keep myself healthy and safe, do all of that PERFECTLY, and still get struck by lightning and die instantly. All the logic in the world couldn’t prevent me from accidentally being in a place that’s about to catch on fire or release a zombie virus. Sometimes doing everything right just isn’t enough to get a happy ending, in real life and in fiction. Some of the most tragic moments in fiction for me are ones where there was no other way out. Where the characters did everything they could and did all of it right but still couldn’t escape their fate. And Patrick just acts like this *isn’t possible.* That the only possible way for conflict and drama are when people are needlessly stupid for the plot, and that if characters are completely rational it is completely impossible for anything bad to happen.

@billjacobs521

3 ай бұрын

Plus, two people could both be rational and logical, but in conflict.

I make it a point to watch Die Hard every Christmas Eve, so I’m fairly well versed with it. If I remember correctly, the building is wired right into the grid, the power can’t be shut down locally. Grubber needed the police to shut off the power to get into the vault.

@jeremypnet

Жыл бұрын

I’m sure the bad guys even make that same point in the film. You asked for miracles. I give you the F B I.

@weirdowithacello3481

Жыл бұрын

Do they explain why? I've never seen a building whose mains didn't run through a switch (or several, depending on the size of the building). I can't think of any benefits you would get, off the top of my head. Not to mention, its mere existence would probably cause every copy of the NEC to burst into flames within a 50 mile radius.

@KillahMate

Жыл бұрын

Yes, it's explicitly established in the movie - the characters explain out loud, in the course of their natural conversation, why they need the FBI. Die Hard is _very_ well written.

@PixelOverload

Жыл бұрын

Sure, except that's a bunch of nonsense, _every_ building is "wired right into the grid" (unless they're explicitly off-grid, obvs) _through_ a distribution panel, full of breaker switches that can shut-off the power, NOT having those is a massive safety hazzard that no building in-use since the 1890s would risk

@WerthPower

Жыл бұрын

So my takeaway here is that, in Die Hard, it is *very clearly* stated TWICE that the circuits for lock 7 cannot be cut locally. Now, per these replies, in the real world this is not a thing and an building code violation. BUT it is not actually a plot hole by these definitions. A plot hole is when a movie contradicts ITSELF, not the real world. Die Hard is not the real world, even if it is intended to be very similar. Jurassic Park says we can extract dinosaur DNA from misquitoes in sap. In reality, we can't. You can accept this or not, but the movie does not actually contradict itself by saying so.

Patrick: movies aren’t wrong or stupid because characters don’t think the same way as you Also Patrick: you’re wrong and stupid because you don’t think the same way as me

@Tundra.

Жыл бұрын

@@bkbeatty6087 He was so invested in defending RJ's work that when JJ changed things he couldn't hold back. He had a brief moment of lucidity in recognizing what a terrible mess it all was, and forgot that he's supposed to protect NuWars at all costs.

@cranberryrosebud

Жыл бұрын

@BK Beatty he seemingly got very attached to TLJ, which is funny, cause he was a member of the group making fun of adults criticising the sequels, for being too attached to SW, since they're movies "about space wizards intended for children" It's almost like if you get invested in a story, it's frustrating to see it being thrown out the window, huh, Patrick?

a TNG bottle episode where Worf's uniform accidentally gets swapped with some poor science officer's and he's trying to get it back would probably be one of my favorite episodes if I'm being honest.

47:07 he almost gets it "it disengages you from the story" that is why plotholes can mater as some audience members will become disengaged, some from the entire story some from that scene.

I mean, Edna was at Bob and Helen's wedding, so I'd say it's reasonable to assume that she's a family friend and could get to know their kids that way

@calvingarbacik272

Жыл бұрын

Which isn't to say that there aren't improvements to be made, I mean dash and vi could've gotten Kari to babysit Jack-Jack as a compromise, wanting to get Edna to do it but deciding against it because she's busy or it'd draw too much attention. Another easy fix would be to have one of them call her "aunt Edna" to show that they know her

@realistic_delinquent

Жыл бұрын

Bob was at Edna’s house to get the blue suit fixed before she started designing the new suits. Seeing as Bob is a dedicated family man with pride in his and his family’s powers, it would be weird if he DIDN’T bring up the kids when he went to visit Edna.

@joelochoa2340

Жыл бұрын

The real nitpick/plothole is how did she know the kid's exact measurements. They are constantly growing and I doubt most parent can off the cuff tell you the exact waist/chest/wrist/ankle/thigh/neck/height measurements for their still growing kids. So you have to assume she did some research to get that info since she had not seen them in person for years (or at the very least a while) before making the suits. The powers make sense, Bob probably commented on them in passing, but the fitting would have been impossible to get as perfectly as she did without them visiting her and getting meticulously measured.

@eyflfla

Жыл бұрын

@@joelochoa2340 The suits look pretty spandexy and form fitting to me.

@TabbyVee

Жыл бұрын

​@@eyflfla that is true, but the mannequins she used were the exact sizes of the kids

You know the other issue with the “if the good guy didn’t make mistakes there wouldn’t be a story” argument? It’s assuming that the bad guy in the situation isn’t also capable of similar tact and would do whatever they did in the “flawed” version regardless, being easy for our now perfect protagonist to defeat in minutes. If our hero is a brilliant thinker, it stands to reason our bad guy could be too and would… just make different decisions based on the different actions of the hero.

@CyberChrist

Жыл бұрын

The problem is... writers can't write characters more intelligent than themselves.

@rjofusetsudzin8011

Жыл бұрын

@@CyberChrist This hits too hard for so many examples.

@esmeecampbell7396

Жыл бұрын

I think we've got too lost with this example. At the most basic level if the hero makes no mistakes, it is a very short story. Because either they easily defeat the villain with no issue. Boring. Or they lose despite making no mistakes and never could have won. Mildly less boring, but not exactly compelling. Neither of these sound like great stories to me. "The bad guy has to make a mistake" could be seen as the exact opposite, but surely is the same issue. If the hero only wins because the bad guy fucks up then the victory doesn't feel earned, and if the bad guy doesn't fuck up and STILL loses then the hero also can't make a mistake otherwise the bad guy looks pathetically incompetent. Oversimplification is bad for analysis though, let's get specific. I'm really interested because I feel like I disagree with the thrust of your point, and I also feel like I don't fully understand it. So please give men an example of a story that you consider to be bad because the good guy makes a mistake. Then an example of a story that is good where they don't. Then possibly also the same thing for bad guys. Essentially explain your point with details and examples because you might be on to something, but in current form your point is lacking in evidence for me to be able to compare it to other films.

@CyberChrist

Жыл бұрын

@@esmeecampbell7396 There are mistakes, and there are mistakes so unbelievably stupid they break immersion immediately because you feel the character is about to say "It's got ELECTROLYTES!"... A film going bad because the protagonists make mistakes? Have you even SEEN Prometheus ? As for a good story where the protagonist DOESN'T make (unbelievably stupid) mistakes, I'd go for the Musashi series (by NHK, 2003-2004). Yes, it goes on for something like 30 HOURS. If you want something shorter, how about Spike Lee's X? Or The World's Fastest Indian? Or Sherlock Holmes: A Game Of Shadows, if you're not into bios...

@esmeecampbell7396

Жыл бұрын

@@CyberChrist No I haven't seen Prometheus, I have seen X. My point is more that's there's way more to it than "this option good" it is more about how it is written, you can have any characters make mistakes or not, it just depends on the writing around other elements.

At the core of Patrick Willems' video he is asking you to stop thinking. Stop questioning. Stop complaining. Talk with your mouth full Bite the hand that feeds you Bite off more than you chew What can you do? Dare to be stupid.