The critique defender has become the criticizer. Oh how I’ve entered my dark era. Jokes aside, like I said, this video details what are my biggest problems with the show so trust me when I say I will be a lot more positive when I get around to talking about the rest of this season. I just feel the most passionately about Angel Dust so I coudn't help but talk about him first. Is it a bad idea to open my discussion of this season with what will probably be my most controversion take? Yes. Yes it is.

When I hear the pilot vs the show, I feel like pilot angel dust is more fun and loves to mess with people because it’s in a jokey tone but when I listen to the show’s angel dust, I feel violated and it’s unpleasant But overall, the writing and structure is the problem. I agree with everyone on that

@HugeRMCFanBoY-bx3od

2 ай бұрын

Personally love the writing

@laniakeas92

2 ай бұрын

Well, in the show he looks more like a traumatized person (which he actually is) who wears mask and plays a specific role. He is kinda supposed to make you feel cringy and uncomfortable with those jokes

@viennasavage9110

2 ай бұрын

Angel dust is intended to disturb with his story.

@Claudia_Crimson_585

2 ай бұрын

Angel is still that way and to me the writing is fine...

@viennasavage9110

2 ай бұрын

@@Claudia_Crimson_585 ikr. I think they have those nostalgia glasses on tbh.

I personally think the scene of Angel standing up to Val was pretty good, as I feel like the only reason Angel was willing or able to do it in that moment was because Nifty was in danger of being placed in his situation, and sometimes the only thing that can make you overcome a block like that and do something is when you realize somebody you care about is in serious danger and your brain reacts by suddenly having a brief, impulsive fight response where it has been trained to normally have a fawn or freeze response instead. That's happened to me a couple of times in less extreme scenarios. When it's somebody ~else~ you know getting damaged for once, it just hits differently, pushes a slightly different button.

@shelleyisdreamin

2 ай бұрын

I agree

@WhitneyDahlin

2 ай бұрын

Yeah that's how I interpreted it too. That he wouldnt have said or done anything if nifty wasn't in danger. I think the point was to show he truly cares more for other people than himself. He feels he doesn't deserve the same rights and respect as everyone else does.

@emilybixler3166

Ай бұрын

I agree with this. With my abuser, I only started standing up to him after a friend moved in with us and his abuse started reaching him.

@theneverwatcher9860

14 күн бұрын

I feel like he still should've acted a bit scared about it tho

It's a really valid point, how fast Angel Dust's arc is done, and how quickly he stands against Valentino. But in the middle of Episode 4, when Valentino and Angel are in his dressing room, and Valentino tells Angel to get Charlie out of the studio, Angel Dust says "Just...don't hurt her." And the scene at the bar in the later episode, Angel Dust was saving Niffty. Me personally, I think that this just shows how much he cares for his friends.

@Krossxc

2 ай бұрын

I definitely agree that the intent is for Angel to come across as caring for his friends more than anything, and I find that moment touching. I just can't ignore how in contrast that feels to the way he consistently puts down Charlie's dreams throughout the first half of the season. I get that he doesn't believe that HE can be redeemed, but just calling her dreams stupid feels less like a subtle justification of his own self image and more like he just wants to make her feel bad.

@lexyruse603

Ай бұрын

​@@Krossxc With Charlie's dreams I think the issue is how she goes about it. For example he called the game she was trying to do stupid. Angel is a character with a lot of trauma and honestly I bet many sinners have trauma which leads them down a bad path. Her camp exercises aren't gonna help with that. Not to mention that very tone death skit she had Angel do. I actually watch a KZread therapist who analyzes the characters and she did a video called how not to do group therapy and points out the problems with how Charlie goes about things.

as a victim of both SA and all forms of abuse i was very much left with a bad taste in my mouth about how angels story was handled because it did very much feel as if they just sang that entire plot away. it felt very rushed and simplified and intern belittled. because no it isn’t that easy to realize this relationship is bad i’m experiencing abuse and then speak out about it then speak so strongly against your abuser especially in public.

@Randomperson-ce6gd

Ай бұрын

I was so confused after loser baby cause he seemed fine after. He is literally still being actively abused you can’t heal from something if it’s still happening

@MoraMorbid

Ай бұрын

I'm so glad I wasn't the only person who felt this way. Coming from the same perspective.

@TKR-ox9ff

7 күн бұрын

I hope you are doing ok

@pinkraven4402

Күн бұрын

I think it's just lack of available time for the creators. Being given mere 8 episodes is kinda pathetic and instead of trimming down the number of arcs, they were too ambitious and speedran the entire thing

@MoraMorbid

23 сағат бұрын

@@pinkraven4402 8 episodes is standard (Fiona and cake had 10, Smiling friends had 8, UWE is 10) and more than enough. That's why it's better to scale back, she's been approved for 3 seasons now, that is more than enough time, she just doesn't edit down her ideas. EVER.

Imagine if Hazbin Hotel stayed an indie series on KZread, like The Amazing Digital Circus. I’m pretty sure a good chunk of the writing issues with the pacing and characters would’ve improved a lot instead of feeling so rushed.

@maplered5042

9 күн бұрын

Helluva boss running like indie series on KZread and still has same problems like Hazbin Hotel. With more tragedy depths, but still

The way I read them in the beginning is attempting to push buttons in order to distance themselves from others.

@endofthelineOFFICIAL_ALT

2 ай бұрын

Who are them like which characters are you referring to? (Sorry if I just read it wrong)

@alananimus9145

2 ай бұрын

@@endofthelineOFFICIAL_ALT Angel

@alexbennet4195

2 ай бұрын

Why are you calling him “them”…?

@alananimus9145

2 ай бұрын

@@alexbennet4195 them is angel and yes calling him them is correct. Please, please, please tell me you are not actually going to go wokescold over calling Angel them.

@alexbennet4195

2 ай бұрын

@@alananimus9145 …WHY are you calling him “them”…?

Uff, so true. Especially with Angels opening to others. Like, he somehow cured of his trauma in a second? I was really questioning that and also felt a bit disappointed by not seeing Angel taking more time for the opening. But their duo was a hit, the best song ever.

@ishashifar

2 ай бұрын

True but I feel like the pacing issue was more of just because the show had 8 episodes so everything felt rushed

@WhitneyDahlin

2 ай бұрын

​@@ishashifarI have recently spent a lot of time watching classic black and white movies from before they had good special effects and the writing was just so GOOD. Because they had to rely on the story alone. I recently watched the original mummy from like the 1930s and it was so good at conveying information and giving hints. There was none of that I'm going to really dumb this down and slap the audience in the face with it because I don't have faith in their ability to read between the lines that the majority of stuff does today. That basically did not exist. And the movies were much shorter than movies are now. So I don't buy into the whole bad writing because of the time constraints. I've seen far more information conveyed much better in a far shorter of amount of time. I highly recommend everyone to go back and watch some of these old black and white movies. The writing in them and the storytelling and the dialogue, is literally just next level. The lady vanishes, rebecca, the women, vertigo, are all obviously classics for a reason. And are amazingly well-written. But just literally look up black and white movies on youtube and choose one at random and chances are it's going to be one of the best written movies you've seen this year.

@artisticpigeon

Ай бұрын

I agree tbh. Especially since I personally was able to relate to Angel, it seemed a little odd that things just seemed better immediately after. I could understand if it was temporary but slowly began to creep back in (which ok that sounds like character development in reverse but people have relapses at times, especially under stress), and it could've been shown how he tries to break out of the cycle and slowly learn to open up to others Imo though the pacing itself was a huge blow, had they had more time + less fat (filler), I think they could've pulled something as serious as this off much better

@jasperjazzie

24 күн бұрын

@@ishashifar honestly so many of the show's issues would have been fixed if they had just been given more time, it's almost impossible to do everything they wanted to do in 8 episodes. i hope season 2 will be longer and give more time to develop the story and characters.

That explains so much- I couldn’t put my finger on why Angel felt so dif to me. He went from being more like Jax in the digital circus (out for fun and selfish reasons) to being much more rude and purposely harassing others for fun.

@viennasavage9110

2 ай бұрын

bro has NOT seen episode 2 of digital circus

@harmonylynx252

2 ай бұрын

@@viennasavage9110 no I have and I still really really like Jax. Everything he does is in a simulation so he doesn’t care about his actions. So long as he gets to have a crazy and violent adventure.

@anonymousapproximation8549

2 ай бұрын

​@@harmonylynx252 I think that's the difference. Pilot Angel didn't care, Season 1 Angel very much cares (to get a reaction).

@harmonylynx252

2 ай бұрын

@@anonymousapproximation8549 Piolt Angel was a guy youd hang with and make crazy dumb and dangerous decisions with but laugh the whole time. Season 1 Angel however is the kind of guy who annoys you for fun at the expense of your comfortness. Ya know?

@anonymousapproximation8549

2 ай бұрын

@@harmonylynx252 Pilot Angel the type of guy to chug bleach for a bet. S1 Angel the type guy to throat a bad dragon just to make you uncomfortable.

One thing I've noticed but sits very wrong with me is how the show is willing to show the abuse, but barely showing Angel's recovery progress. Like we are just told 2 episodes later "oh yah, he's not really open to drugs anymore." Like, tf? Not to mention the show will treat Angel's SA seriously, but Sir Pentious's SA is a throw away gag in the same episode Angel was standing up the Val in. Like damn, should we only take SA seriously sometimes?

@Bakamatsu-GojiFanArchive

10 күн бұрын

So they can't joke about sexual assault? Yall don't bat an eye at murder being in a comedic context but when something equally as serious is joked about you act like it's the greatest atrocity committed. Weak

@lloydlandrum3040

6 күн бұрын

@@Bakamatsu-GojiFanArchive the issue you are missing is they treat SA as a serious topic with one character yet still joke about it with another character

@Bakamatsu-GojiFanArchive

6 күн бұрын

@@lloydlandrum3040 correct it is. but so is murder and shit. which is also joked about. so is the whole show bad? or just the SA stuff? it all falls apart the more you question your silly arguments

My only real issue with Angel was how the fandom just completely writes off his harassment to Husk. As someone who has been sexually harassed the way people just accept Angel's treatment to Husk genuinely disgusts me and I hate every scene where that occurred

@user-dz1fz8xh5k

2 ай бұрын

Yeah! I know! And even Vaggie points it out and, not only does the show not punish or have any repercussions of Angel dust sexually harassing Husk but he also didn’t even show remorse for when vaggie brings it up and he NEVER DOES. It sometimes just feels like the writers just don’t care and they expect the audience to like it because “it’s angel dust” so of course he sexually harasses people. No, pilot angel dust DID NOT do that the video in this also explains it pretty well. In summary the show treats Angel like he’s absolutely perfect and they basically just dumbed down his character

@laurav5767

Ай бұрын

I personally hate Huskerdust shippers, i don't Care it's Just gross.

@scyobiempire4450

Ай бұрын

PREACH!

@scyobiempire4450

Ай бұрын

@@laurav5767i like it as a platonic ship, like them being besties

@jasperjazzie

24 күн бұрын

honestly it'd be less bad if husk weren't treated as in the wrong for being mad about it. i think angel doing it makes sense as part of his trauma, but it should be treated as the unhealthy and not acceptable thing that it is, rather than just "oh he does that sometimes lol"

I'm so glad other people have noticed this. I think the thing that really hammered home the difference in Angel's general attitude for me was the scene where Charlie is upset with her dad. Despite seeing how visibly distressed she is and how the mere mention of calling her dad stressed her out earlier, instead of doing anything to help, he just cracks a shitty one-liner and eats a piece of popcorn. This blatantly contradicts the bond they formed in episode four, where he was willing to play the part of the bad guy to protect her from Valentino, the understanding they formed afterwards and his behaviour in the original pilot. In the pilot, there's a scene where, after the crew get back to the hotel from the interview, Angel cracks a joke about getting some actual food in the place because of all the 'way-ward souls' they have running around, the obvious joke being that the place is completely empty. This visibly upsets Charlie and she curls in on herself, looking even more defeated than before. This causes Angel's face to fall, once he realises how much this remark actually hurt her. And, for a moment, he reaches out before letting his hand fall and walking away. This felt so much more genuine to me. It wasn't much but it told us that Angel was empathetic enough as a person to recognise when his behaviour wasn't on and that he had a desire to help, even if he didn't know how to reach out. It's honestly so sad how this largely doesn't carry over into the main show. I think showing how victims of sexual assault/harassment can go on to sexualise others themselves, like he did with Husk, is incredibly important but they needed to balance it out with his other signature sense of humour so it didn't become all-consuming for his character.

Did Angel always make people around him uncomfortable? It was always there as part of his facade. Multiple times we as viewers see his reactions to certain situations. I feel the problem is the pacing as you mentioned, but i think the show has always been rushed. The pilot and the main show may have had years, but the problem was the lack of runtime. The show wouldve worked with more time and more episodes.

@Artician

2 ай бұрын

It's funny that she purposefully left out the dialogue between Angel and Cherri in the pilot where Angel talked shit about the hotel with literally no provocation from anyone whatsoever.

Fair critique, but I do think I have to disagree with one thing in particular: The scene in the club with Val. (Genuinely sorry, this got long) I never got the impression that Angel is past Val and I don't think the scene gives that impression either. He's clearly still under his control, but he's coping as best he can. This is reinforced by the beginning of the episode where Angel comes in already complaining about a long day at the studio where Val has been merciless with his work. One big point made in "Loser Baby" is that he and Husker are both still trapped in their respective situations, but that they can take comfort knowing they're not alone and that it's okay to not be okay with your situation, which may also be why Angel is getting better about not always having to put up a front about it. As for the club scene proper, you are absolutely right that abuse victims can have very strong reactions to being confronted with their abuser. And you can hear the panic start to rise in Angel's voice as he gets ready to leave. But the one key thing that stops him is Nifty. Angel can be a jerk to his friends, but he still values them and will go to great lengths to keep them safe. We see this in Episode 4 with everything Angel does to protect Charlie. Even in the dressing room, when Val is having him repeat things back, he only stops when Charlie gets mentioned, even knowing that it'll make Val angry. And this isn't entirely unrealistic. Abuse victims can be defiant, especially for something that they believe is more valuable than their safety. An older sibling may actively goad an abusive parent to keep attention off a younger sibling, for example. ( Note: Of course this isn't always the case and I definitely don't want to diminish anyone who gets overtaken by flight or freeze responses. Like mentioned in the video, even the ability to speak can feel impossible, let alone actively standing up. And that is absolutely valid.) In this case, the read I get is that Angel knows the consequences, but Val keeps making remarks like he's trying to recruit Nifty. Angel's already been spending the whole night going out of his way to keep her out of trouble and Val is the biggest trouble in the club. He likely sees Nifty as being in active danger. Angel is living this abuse just about every day and he knows how bad it can get, but he also knows he can survive and he doesn't want Val anywhere near his friends. He may even think his remark towards Val will draw attention away from Nifty. I don't think he's calm about it, either. His one best skill is being an actor, though you can still hear the tension in his voice and catch a glimpse of his facade breaking when Val first pulls him close. As for the follow up gag of Nifty being a little maniac that grabs a trophy off of Val, I don't think it's meant to make Val seem like less of a threat, but instead is what a professor of mine once called the "silly cucumber trick" (alluding to cucumbers being palette cleansers). Following an intense scene, a quick quip or gag allows the audience a moment to breathe and let go of that tension before transitioning to the next one. Of course, whether or not it was actually effective in practice is for the viewer to decide. I can definitely agree, though, that I do wish we had more time to simmer with all the characters and their arcs. I can definitely see where your interpretation comes from, especially with how rushed the story beats felt. I also genuinely hope Season 2 doesn't rush the conclusion of Angel's arc with Val. But yeah, just needed to get that off my chest apparently haha

@deceitfuljester7172

2 ай бұрын

This exactly!

@Krossxc

2 ай бұрын

Very well thought out responce. I can totally see how Nifty's presence would compell Angel's actions in episode 6

@kattesaks

2 ай бұрын

bros cooking

@thomaswhite5122

2 ай бұрын

​@Krossxc it's also not like angel is 100% healed from it, you make it sound like they sang loser baby and had a drink and everything is hunky dory but he isn't over it he broke a barrier and still has flaws why he is still in hell if dieing isn't part of redeeming and going to heaven, I never got an impression he is over Val just more open to make fun of him(out of vals sight) with husk his now closer friend, before he keeps things vague but now he is opening up what's going on at work and more honest about it and making jokes about it with other not for others to laugh at, it didn't magically dissappear once he confronts Val at the club because that's the first step on healing and for the show purposes redemption, Angel really cares for the hotel members especially Nifty watching over her throughout the party once he notices Nifty in a super drunk state and when Val does his usual joke about Angel not getting enough 🍆 and then asking if Angel is bringing Nifty to him for disgusting things "there's a kink for that" as he puts it and like Angel said to Cherri before "I don't want her to end up in the gutter like I did" and with Angel is protecting Nifty from things at the club he is proving to both the viewers and heaven council why he deserves a chance and he really is changing for the better, but with your video you are making it seem this is it the end of the story when he obviously has loads to heal from and more story to tell and why season 2 n more would benefit the story(like EVERY STORY EVER)

@DezDoodlezzz

Ай бұрын

Well said! =]

Finally, another person noticing the difference between pilot and s1angel dust!! I was so bothered by it but I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was. The same thing goes for alastor too, except he goes from bubbly to.. smug.

Adam is the hateable one and not the delciously entertaing villiain he actually is? The hateable villain in this show is Valentino

@Krossxc

2 ай бұрын

Val is another appropriately hateable character, yes. I do not find Adam deliciously entertaining at all. He holds my interest, sure, but anytime he's onscreen, I am having the opposite of fun, personally.

@kingkingo1841

2 ай бұрын

​@Krossxc yeah, valentino and vox are more entertaining then adam. Possibly because there are more grounded

@Cherry-ki3ln

Ай бұрын

Ngl I love Adam lmao. He's just stupid enough for me not to be anxious about him and when a villan is misogynistic... Well, since heros are misogynistic in hundreds of stories it makes me feel seen. Idk, he's great to me and he made Lute (the best character) well, Lute

@Cherry-ki3ln

Ай бұрын

And in case you're curious at what I mean by misogynistic heros, look at Ken (who is forgiven for inventing patriarchy lol), Todo from jjk, Hamlet, the majority of men from Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss regularly calling women bitches... Oh wait, we're supposed to all ignore that lol. Anyways the examples are countless. So having a villan who, due to being a misogynist is both stupid and evil (but in a non-threatening way) is just comforting. In this world filled until bursting with normalized misogyny

@Bakamatsu-GojiFanArchive

10 күн бұрын

​@@Cherry-ki3lnoh... you're one of those people...

THANK YOU. God, I knew something was different from the Angel from the pilot compared to the canon one but didn’t know what it was until this video. He’s not a bad character but the fact he was my favorite in the pilot and in the canon version he just becomes “meh” to me was so ???? and I didn’t know why at all. Thank you so much for making this video!

@memory.3015

2 ай бұрын

FR SAMEEEE I loved Angel so much in the pilot, but then I found him boring in the full show

@NeyamStar

Ай бұрын

Yes

It's actually fucking embarrassing how much better the pilot is than the actual show

I beleive angel got the miraculous confidence to face val in order to protect the little maid. He sacrificed for the little one which proved his redemption as well. You gotta look at the bigger picture... ppl respond to that type of trauma....and after the threat of "worse treatment " not being addressed again... i just chalk that up to ... it is what it is.... it literally cant get worse because its already the worst it could be.. and he has BEEN coping with it ..and has strength to cope with it more having more friends and a bond with husk... they just gotta suck it up and put their energy into helping the princess... i beleive everything was great. .. ppl react like this and other ways that "dont make sense" when it comes to trauma responses and just cuz you cant see yourself doing it esp after self admission of never going through similar trauma... that shouldn't be your Judgment gauge. There have been victims known to snap at some point and kill their abusers.... its the writers story.. not yours ..... respectfully

This has got to be one of my favorite critique video ever. You are not simply berating the show, you are also giving constructive criticism that you actually understand how to word properly and I thank you for that! Angel is my favorite character and I found myself agreeing to every single one of your points despite being hesitant to watch.

This is an actually amazing critique of Angel, and just Hazbin in general! Of was well-spoken, well researched, and I think you made a lot of awesome points. I agree with the fact it his arc was very rushed, and am very much hopeing that more weight will be put on Husker's abuse as well, since he more or less doesn't get any sort of relief or attention on how Alastor treats him. (Other then the scene in the hallway, of course!) Thank you for making this my girl!

I think most of the problems with hazbin hotel comes down to the fact that season one was eight fucking episodes. I have no doubt that if they had the proper time to flush out characters and organically build archs, the show would’ve been so much better.

@cynical_chai8922

2 ай бұрын

I hate that excuse, they just didn’t need to stuff the season with irrelevant plot points. The V’s could have just been hinted at, etc.

@skullmothstudios713

2 ай бұрын

@@cynical_chai8922 ok… enjoy that opinion and I’ll enjoy mine

@cynical_chai8922

2 ай бұрын

@@skullmothstudios713 wasnt a personal attack lmao

@skullmothstudios713

2 ай бұрын

@@cynical_chai8922 you called my opinion and excuse and then said you hated it. If that wasn’t a personal attack, then you need to learn how to socialize.

@cynical_chai8922

2 ай бұрын

​@@skullmothstudios713 good lord you're chronically online. That opinion is a very common one, and I've seen it alot. It's not solely yours and I literally don't know you/don't care. If you can't take a slight disagreement from a stranger I think you shouldnt be posting on public forums.

I love this critique cuz I too was absolutely obsessed with pilot Angel…I was surprised that despite enjoying hazbins first season, I didn’t enjoy him as much as I used to. While I was also really bummed kovach wouldn’t be reprising his role, I didn’t realize that he’s a lot less witty and silly in the show than in the pilot…like the problem is with the writing and voice direction more than the actor himself. Also Blake Roman has so much respect for kovach it’s kind of adorable…he met Michael at a con and was like “aaahhh it’s the original!!!”

@scootie_scoot

Ай бұрын

I also just enjoy angels older characterization, even before the pilot, of being a sleazy drug-addicted mobster AS WELL AS enjoying drag and being gender-fluid and sexy, it makes him seem much more like a real person with hobbies than a caricature

Honestly, I don’t really hate Angel Dust in the show as apposed to the pilot. Pilot Angel is wayyyy chiller than Today’s Angel, but I can kinda understand why he is the way he is. I believe Today’s Angel is constantly being overly flamboyant and unnecessarily sexual because this is the ‘act’ he has trained himself to put on. He doesn’t feel comfortable enough with the other members to be himself just yet, so he acts just as they would expect someone like him to act on a regular basis. If you pay attention, you’ll catch him telling on himself a lot. Bragging about his attributes, almost always reverting back to his sexual nature, and etc. The only person who could see through him was Husk and Angel wasn’t exactly ready for that. He wasn’t ready for someone to see him as more than a pornstar all of a sudden or to be disgusted with his facade. Valentino is definitely an abusive piece of crap but Angel has to realize that there are something’s that be brings upon himself. Like Husk’s rejection of him at first or Charlie being attentive to Sir Pentious instead of Angel because Pen actually participated in Charlie’s activities as opposed to downplaying her efforts. Angel Dust is a complex character, one who I think is pretty fine the way he is. I hope he’ll definitely have some character arcs though, just to make him more mature and possibly an even better character.

It's the same as saying that Allastor is different. For some reason, we put our expectations on these characters without understanding their essence. We judge by a puzzle that is not fully assembled. For example, Angel is initially a strong character. And literally the whole essence of his abuse situation is "in setting" reason with all this demon contracts. This would all make sense if Angel voluntarily stayed with Valentino, as happens in the real world with victims of abuse. But this is not the case here, so this whole perspective cannot be imposed on Angel. He is inherently strong and initially wanted to help Charlie, but he considered himself special, which justified his behavior in his eyes. I also say that we don't know the characters completely. Damn, we don’t even know their past (let’s say that Angel is believed to love Charlie because she resembles his sister Molly whom we saw in episode 6). Just let the show pick up speed, judging by the structure of Helluva Boss, we will be given pieces of the puzzle in the future, due to previous plot points will become clearer

A pretty thorough take on the issues you have, but I do feel like some context was left out and some things weren't really considered. This ended up being longer than intended, but these were just the thoughts I had. Things like Angel's flirting and jokes were less overt in the pilot yes, but the attention he was giving Husk continued twice more after Husk made it clear he wasn't interested so he was doing it for a reaction. Something he does more overtly in the early episodes. As far as episode 4 goes, Husk outing everyone may have been a bit random, but it was also him being over Angel's BS. Which also makes sense because Angel got bent out of shape over Husk saying the script to the film was bad, when that wasn't really a critique of Angel. He made a point to show he'd seen all of their negative quirks, then doubled down on Angel when he was being flippant. There's a lot of little things to catch for Husk's character, including implications just in that episode. Following episode four there's an implied time skip, and while I would've liked for more of his development to be shown, it's not what we got. But given the fact that he's internalized Husk's advice, knows that Charlie knows, and Charlie having alluded to Val's abuse to Vaggie, it is plausible that he didn't feel the need to hide it however far down the line. But he's clearly not just cured either, given the fact it doesn't take Cherry much effort to get him to take drugs and it's only his concern for Nifty that puts him back on track and gives him a reason to confront Val. I can't say that it's handled realistically or not, but if Angel is the type to step up for his friends, it tracks. Especially because before the club we see him casually take a knife off Nifty like he's concerned for her. And lastly, a question to note, if someone in the hotel had already seen Alastor using Husk's chains to give episode more oomph, what would have to be done with the dynamics to make that work? Charlie certainly wouldn't have been as willing to work with Alastor for one, can't really say how Angel would have reacted. But it would take Angel's obnoxious flirting and ignoring of Husk's boundaries and turn it into cruelty if it continued up until their heart to heart, alongside Vaggie just shoving Husk off to check of him because "Oh you upset him, so fix it". And Charlie talking about a lesson on boundaries because she overstepped with Angel, right in front of Husk whose boundaries were regularly ignored by Angel, would have gone from cutely thoughtless to "Are you serious, Charlie?!" levels of awful and really pushed the idea that he was just there to further Angel's arc. To fix all of that so they seem less horrible would require some noticeable rewrites, I'd guess. So it was probably easier to keep them all ignorant for now, and so we could have that fairly effective moment with Alastor and Husk the very next episode.

i cant take this show serious when the voice actor of the abuser character is posing with "hot" cosplay versions of val while selling a mug that says "pimping not simping" .if the creators dont take this subject serious why should the audience?

@Krossxc

Ай бұрын

Well, I'm not a cosplayer, and I don’t pretend to know why they cosplay the characters they cosplay but I do believe that just because you dress up like a character doesn't necessarily mean you agree with what they stand for. It could be as simple as liking their design, I guess. I imagine Joel, Val's va, feels similarly. But also, what should we expect him to do when a fan goes the 9 yards to dress up as his character and ask for a picture? Turn them down? Selling Val's mug is in poor taste imo. I'll agree there

@cheeseball7882

Ай бұрын

@@Krossxc it is unrealistic to expect him to turn the fans down.but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth knowing that the fans just constantly s3xualize Val and all the creators do is sell funny mugs Abt it

@Vampyroteou

Ай бұрын

@@KrossxcI mean I am disgusted by anyone who cosplays sangwoo

Angel Dust in the beginning isn’t really meant to be likable. He IS just pushing peoples’ buttons. It’s supposed to be represented as a problem that is a symptom of his abuse. I feel like it’s okay for the characters to have gone through changes from the pilot, and I feel like old Angel was way too blaze about his attitude towards his abuse for the intensity of abuse he was going through. I like this version more because it paints a picture of a much more troubled person, which makes his redemption more satisfying.

@Krossxc

Ай бұрын

That's fair Personally, I feel like it's most satisfying to see a bad person turn around when they've got at least some positive traits. And I think Angel could have been portrayed as troubled while keeping his likeability intact. I felt they did this exceedingly well with the Poison music video, for example. Also, characters are totally allowed to change after the pilot. I only compare show Angel to pilot Angel because it illustrates exactly how I think show Angel could have improved.

@ladylover9000

Ай бұрын

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

@jasperjazzie

24 күн бұрын

yeah, i wish more people would get that. pretty much every character in this show is some shade of morally grey, they're all in hell for a reason after all, and i get the "it's hell" excuse can get tiring, but it's wild how people praise alastor even though he's way worse of a person and then bash angel for being an asshole, as if alastor isn't way bigger of an asshole and for less reason, and even if he wasn't, they're in hell and he's also got trauma, ofc he's not gonna be nice and friendly

While I heavily relate to Angel Dust, even just during the pilot, due to how he handles SA trauma, I also agree that his character arc was really rushed. They wanted to have an entire show, with many deep characters, and multiple plot lines, but only had around 9 episodes to do that.

@TKR-ox9ff

7 күн бұрын

I hope you are doing ok

Hey I’m late but this is incredibly well done. I’ve had these same thoughts for a while but I never was able to properly put them in a way that makes sense like this. It’s so great to see people call angel out bc I’m tired of the way majority of the fandom infantalizes him and acts like he did nothing wrong

I think Angel's arc should have been saved for Season 2. Given the Vs are going to be the primary villains of Season 2. Season 1 can still allude to there being a "deal" between Angel and Valentino, foreshadow it by having Angel receive texts and being called away multiple times throughout the season - but keep it vague so come Season 2 (when the show has more time to focus on Angel and Valentino), 'that' can be when the bomb drops of what Valentino has Angel do.

@HImitsuRose4869

2 ай бұрын

I have a feeling that we’ve only seen part of Angel’s arc. We’ve only seen his connection with Val, but the reason he’s in hell is because of being in the mafia. I think the ‘stick it to the man’ is him standing up to his dad who was the leader of the mafia

Really great video!! (So sorry that this is long!) I agree that fear of such a person doesn't go away quickly. However, Angel cared about Nifty which probably flipped a protective switch, allowing him to stand up to Val that ONE time. If he was completely rid of his fears and other emotions related to it, then he would be a able to walk away from it. I do find his behaviour rather off putting... But that's the point! He's deliberately being off putting in order to keep others away so he doesn't get hurt even more! As for him seeming "completely fine" after the music number. I assume it's only like that when he's with the people he's close too! (Personal experience). As for the being open thing. (Again, coming from personal experience) It can become easier to open up with other people you are close too when You've opened up to one of them already. Its like husk in this case, was the person to break that barrier of being closed off. And I can imagine that it is a massive struggle and takes A LOT of effort for angel to do all of this. But because we're only watching from an outside perspective, we don't see what he's thinking or feeling before those moments. For all we know, Angel could have been emotionally and mentally preparing himself before even open the door to the hotel, in order to open up about his day. We just don't know and we wouldn't see it. And i think the fact that we don't see more of what angel is going through, is probably a good thing, keeping the visual to a minimum is GOOD, we now know what's going on. And the fact that Val said he'd make things worse just emphasizes that. I definitely would like to see angel close up a bit more and have a few low moments/ relapses. As they do happen. Just to really emphasize those points. And yes, I definitely agree with the husker points. Things could have definitely been handled a little better rather than making him a plot mover. Again, really good video! Loved seeing this point of view.

I've heard a theory that adam acts like an asshole because he never ate the tomato

@turqussy

2 ай бұрын

what tomato?

@Vampyroteou

Ай бұрын

You mean apple?

@obnoxious_efe420

Ай бұрын

@@Vampyroteou they never specified wich fruit it is in the bible and I like tomatoes

@dejus_e

29 күн бұрын

The apples so good it turns you nice

100% on feeling like several of these problems could have been avoided if they had more episodes.

Hazbin blows it’s load too early consistently with character development and plot points like briefly not knowing who killed the exorcist angel only to reveal it to the characters minutes later when it could have been a plot point to build tension around figuring out who dunnit. like why in the world does Carmilla Carmine, a character we know next to nothing about, given what is implied to be a very emotional duet with Vaggie?? it’s supposed to make you feel for her with the mentioning of wanting to protect her kids but, the problem is that Hazbin’s target audience other than teens is Viv herself. it doesn’t matter that the audience has no connection to this brand new to-us character, it’s Viv’s oc that she knows everything about. of course it hits different for her. and it’s shown time and time again with Viv’s own writing that she is squandering what faith people had in the potential of the show like 10 years ago, by pushing her female lead to the side in favor of showing off the backstory or development of a select few male characters while literally losing the original plot with redeeming sinners. instead HH wants to do a million things at once except the plot because Viv wants every tangential fanfiction thought she’s ever had about her fictional characters animated with bezos bucks while poorly paying her animators for her nose-diving indie series on this website.

@T_E_G

Ай бұрын

Fr- like what have they been doing for the past years of developing this show?? It just feels like a student slacking off their school project or essay or something and trying to catch up to the deadline with rushed work and then call it a day 💀

I feel like they shouldve mixed events from episode episode 4 and 5, imagine husk coming back from his meeting with alastor leading into the bar scene, the tension would make more sense. husk and angel dust didnt do much throughout episode 5, so they could've had their own story while the rest of the cast was meeting Lucifer. Or they could've just swapped episode 4 and 5, making the events of episode 6 seem a little more appropriate.

@Krossxc

2 ай бұрын

Giving Husk and Angel something to do in between the events of ep4 and 6 would have been great. Making the events of those episodes happen closer together would not. At the very least, they needed to emphasize that/how the characters changed since the time skip

you bring up some absolutely amazing points, and I agree with you on everything. I felt like Vivzie always had a rough time when it came to writing trauma for characters. I have nothing against Vivzie and I did think Hazbin Hotel was ok, but I feel like Vivzie is trying to juggle many plot points that don't seem to connect with each other and then saying "look guys! It's all connected trust me!". Honestly, how Angel Dust's redemption was treated made me feel really numb. It didn't really feel like it had as big as an impact as it should've and I feel that's why me and many other people don't find Angel's redemption to be satisfying. I will forever believe that the extermination date change is the reason Hazbin Hotel's writing flopped as hard as it did, if the character development wasn't rushed then it would've given characters like Angel and Husk a lot more breathing room to actually become lovable and satisfying characters. Like I said, amazing video, keep it up!!! :)

@Krossxc

Ай бұрын

Was the extermination date originally planned to be 1 year?

@clouddiee

Ай бұрын

@@Krossxc yes it was, and then they changed it and told the audience in the song “Hell is Forever”. I really hated it and I felt that’s the reason why the shows writing was as rushed as it was

@Krossxc

Ай бұрын

@@clouddiee oh wait, I meant did the writers initially want to be 1 year? I know within the show's universe it was supposed to be 1 year and then Adam shortened it to 6 months but I thought that was VIv's plan for the story

@clouddiee

Ай бұрын

@@Krossxc I’m pretty sure it was, but i personally just find it to rush character development and that’s why stuff was so rushed. it’s makes me sad because if we didn’t get that then the character development between everyone would be really smooth and the show wouldn’t feel so rushed

I think that you stumbled on something, instead of Angel being an abuse victim, who uses sex as a way to untense a conversation the new Angel feels as if he LIKES making other people uncomfortable sexually, and because of that it ends up giving the character abusive tendencies that correlate to his abuse. Rather it gives a tone that an abuse victim will always become the abuser in someone else's life. It gets worse when character's ask him to stop and he gets aggressive about it.

I wish his mobster side wasn't basically completely irrelevant now. He was flanderized before the pilot was even released. Turning from a mobster who was a little bit of a pervert to a pervert whos kind of maybe a mobster If you turn your head and squint your eyes a little bit.

A critique of Angel Dust? Lord have mercy, don’t show VivziePop this or you’ll be on a missing persons list soon ( ㄕཀ ʖ̯ ཀ)

That's really interesting view and thoughts. Thank you! For real!

Several people in the comments are missing the point entirely, one of the problems isn't that Angel is a bad person the criticism that Kross is getting at here (at least that's how i interpret it. If i'm making a clown out of myself right now do let me know) is that he's just not as entertaining to watch on screen. You can have the most vile person imaginable as a character and i'd still enjoy them as long as they're entertaining on screen and play their role in the story well; similarly, you can put the most morally sound character in front of me and if they're not well written i'm going to think they're an annoying shit and audibly groan every time they show up on screen. Fully aware this wasn't the main criticism of the video but the fact that people are even misinterpreting such a simple statement like that is grinding my gears

I'd be surprised if hazbin hotel has writers and not just people who rp as the characters then use the logs for an episode's plot

@Krossxc

Ай бұрын

If only they listed the people who worked on the show and what role each person did after the episode was over...

@furrydbz

Ай бұрын

If only people didn't look to friggin hazbin hotel by vivzie pop for realistic depictions of addiction and abuse

@Krossxc

Ай бұрын

Ur silly

@furrydbz

Ай бұрын

@Krossxc 😭 Okay, edited comment, you made the video

I personally don't think his problems disappeared after the song with Husker. He just finally started expressing them.

i really feel like helluva and hazbin have just woobified/flanderized these characters; hazbin mostly feels like exposition dumping to cram all the worldbuilding and backstories into a small amount of episodes alotted. if you guys want a very good representation of someone whose undergone similar trauma to angel's; astarion from baldur's gate 3, hes also a sexually forward character due to the trauma of being pimped but in a way thats not uncomfortable and that genuinely makes sense... hes also not a "perfect victim" because hes had most of his humanity forcibly sanded down out of him by his abuse... he also adopts a fake sexual persona and spends a chunk of the game undergoing a personal story to deconstruct that... he also has white hair and red eyes... huh. viv maybe you needn't try w angel cuz someone else has already done a character super similar to him way better lol

I love Angel. Hes one of my top 3. But the way he was handled even I wasnt 100% onboard. Its fine to portray a charcter as an likeable asshole. But you gotta give us SOMETHING good.

Thank goodness, I thought I was the only one that didn’t like Angel as much as I should in the first season. The pilot isn’t perfect by any means, but I feel like the sexual dialogue was amplified a tad bit too much in the series. I understand why people still find him fun, and I still think his story is immensely impactful, but I kinda got sick of his sex jokes after a while.

@HugeRMCFanBoY-bx3od

2 ай бұрын

He's a great character and these are just opinions but I get really irritated when people say he's one of the best characters in the show

something that i noticed is that angel in the pilot almost doesn’t seem like he knows val. tbh, angel in the pilot could be years before val’s abuse. i remember watching angel and almost panicking while watching him stand up to val "why’d he do that?! he’ll be so mad at you?!" but if one of my friends was in danger of my abuser. i’d put my self at risk of a beat down in a heartbeat.

Im sorry but husk sounds so off. I miss the old hard smoker voice.

@Krossxc

Ай бұрын

Honestly I love Husk's new voice, but to each their own

I'd be pissed if someone like Vaggie told me to comfort someone who was making me uncomfortable and then needing to feel sorry for them just because they have trauma and such… I understand. That's not an excuse for their bad behaviour which is (almost) never called out! I don't like Angel Dust- neither do i care he got character develpment OFFSCREEN.

Your main issue with this is simple: you see only *Angel Dust*, but not *Anthony*. Angel Dust is a persona Anthony created, to let him be so loose he'd forget all his troubles. The reason Angel Dust is uncomfortable, overbearing, slutty and arrogant is because Anthony is hurting too much to a point that this became his survival technique. Hurting others is still not his goal, but he is right about Charlie's naive nature to help sinners without knowing what even brings them to Heaven in the first place! The Angel Dust in pilot did not have any depth to him, he was just a shell of who they've created later on.

finally someone gets it

@sailorstar3148

2 ай бұрын

And some people have their own thoughts about this show, whether we agree or disagree I’m just glad that there’s people that are actually giving their opinions and not hating.

i agree with most of this. angel just comes off so (purposely) mean where he really wasn’t before?

Where has bro been?😭

@Krossxc

2 ай бұрын

I've been posting again since January

At 14:30 I have to point out that Husker's very existence in the show is a reference to him being beholden to Alastor, since Alastor is the one that summons him when a need for a bartender is expressed. He clearly has no liking of being summoned, but only superficially complains about it, then does what he is told to do. If that isn't a clear indicator of how much power Alastor has over him, I don't know what is, and that was in the pilot, no less.

@Krossxc

21 күн бұрын

Disagree. Alastor is established as an overwhelmingly powerful character who has no problem murdering people to get what he wants. He does clearly have power over Husker from the begining, but he has power over nearly everyone in hell. All Alasot summoning Husker concretely tells us is that they have a history of some kind. Also, Husker's exact words are "you think you can buy me with a wink and some cheap booze?... Well you can." I feel like it's pretty reasonable to assume Husker has at least some autonomy in that exchange. He comes across almost like the Morty to Alastor's Rick. Like just gets dragged along on adventures he doesn't really want to go on but Alastor does this often enough that Husker is just desensitized and takes the path of least resistance. We can obviously read more into this scene with hindsight, but that just what it is. Hindsight.

Don’t forget the fact that he just… quit drugs and “fixed” his addiction OFFSCREEN 😭 Honestly, I feel like Angel’s abuse and addiction are just used as set dressing. We barely see their impact. For all the characters bemoan his addiction, they don’t actually show the ugly side of it.

the fact that they portray sex workers as constantly super horny and making sexual remarks towards everyone leaves a super bad taste in my mouth honestly. we don’t see a lot of other people in angel’s position in the show, but they are there and act in a similar fashion. i just really hate the stereotype of sex workers, especially gay male sex workers, ignoring peoples boundaries and being oversexualized. it’s not a good look. and while i can sort of understand the idea of this being a trauma response from him, they still did not portray that route correctly or with sensitivity at all. as a victim of similar abuse myself, i can safely say that this self-sexualizing response does appear in certain cases, but angel’s character does not do it justice. the show also portrays his actions as more of a satirical act more than a trauma response, so i don’t know if vivziepop was even trying to go there. overall, i really do not like how angel is written, and i especially don’t like how quick the show is to justify his behavior. he acts extremely obnoxiously sexual for nearly the whole season, seemingly BECAUSE he is a sex worker (which is not a healthy portrayal), then he’s suddenly crying and saying that he doesn’t mean it. i think a better way of writing angel’s character arc would be to not only tone down the sexual remarks in general (and also avoid making it seem like his job is the reason for his behavior, because that not how it works), but also drop little hints that he doesn’t actually think this way. his whole arc happens in one episode and it’s… not the best.

Angel became a bad character after he lost his hat... And I stand by that.

Thank u for this fr

FINALLY SOMEBODY ELSE WHO PREFERS MICHAEL INSTEAD OF THE NEW VA OF ANGEL DUST.

I watched the whole show and I believe Still the angel dust in pilot episode is 100 times better than the whole season 1

okay well he IS my favourite character so holding my breath

Oh wait 17:58 Last video by you I watched was the "exploring my gender through anime" video a while ago, so it's good to know you go by she/her now (unless you don't and I misheard, If I did feel free to correct me)

@Krossxc

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, I go by she/her or they/them now, but I kinda prefer she/her

@HikasCorner

2 ай бұрын

@@Krossxc She/Her it is!

All I got from this video is you just don’t like new Angel Dust because he actually acts like a more abrasive type of person in an abusive relationship, being extremely mask on and abrasive to anyone trying to help him. 9:03 - Yes it does, you can hear it in the VAs performance that this is meant to be Angel genuinely being fed up with Husk, not just being apathetic to other people’s feelings. 10:22 - You’re just misrepresenting the show at this point. Angel wasn’t magically fixed in regards to his trauma after this episode, far from it actually. Shocker, victims can have their moments of “normalcy” by laughing about their abuse, especially if they’ve been really good at hiding how it gets to them. Being more open in talking about one’s abuse definitely doesn’t mean the person has healed. 11:36 - Again, you misrepresent the narrative in my opinion. This same scene has Angel admit he’s still under Val’s contract, cementing the fact he knows his situation is still very much real and hopeless of escape. However, even though Angel cares very little of himself, he understandably would confront Val if only to protect anyone else from his influence. This is not a new development, he tried doing the same but not as confidently in episode 4 with Charlie at the studio. Key word, the studio, which Angel elaborates is the only place Val has 100% control over what he does. This is where the confidence comes from in this scene, as Angel knows he can get away with being more direct and confrontational to Val per their agreement. I don’t claim to be an expert or have experienced SA myself, but in terms of points and arguments, I think some of yours are flawed, in my opinion.

@ADHDgoldfish

2 ай бұрын

I agree with most of your points, but it would have been nice to see how angel gets more comfortable with venting about his abuse to other people. Saying this from experience; it takes alot of trust to be able to just vent about something that heavy so openly with people, So it would make more sense to see angel grow closer to the rest of the cast before being this open about val. Tbh most of the issues in hazbin isn’t always because it “wouldn’t make sense” but because the show doesn’t show enough of what it says (To summarize, show should have shown the journey of angel healing instead of just going “oh he’s less prone to using drugs” in like 2 episodes)

@lunariics

2 ай бұрын

100%, i don’t agree with any of their opinions either. you worded it beautifully.

I can't pinpoint exactly what, but honestly, I felt the opposite. Maybe it's because I started with the Prime show, but when I first watched the show, I instantly liked Angel for his over the top jokey attitude. I watched the pilot second, and my reaction to Angel was, "Wow, what a dick. I can't stand this guy." Maybe it's the over the top nature in the show that indicates at least to me that he's not being serious. In the pilot, the comments seem a lot more pointed and trying to get under people's skin, rather than being nonchalant jokes. Not saying I'm right. I'm just relaying my experience from a different perspective.

I think Angel standing up to Valentino wasn't too out of the blue. In the 'Addict' music video at the end he was shown to be very angry and in episode four when Valentino shoves him around in the dressing room, just for a second you could see Angel glaring at him. His anger has been there for a long time and asmost abuse victims he was afraid to actually stand up for himself, especially since he made a deal with Val, binding Angel to him for eternity or so.

I relate a lot to Angel, it was kinda scary even how much of myself I saw them when first watching the show. The song "poison" sends shivers down my spine cause I've been there mentally just a couple of months ago. After years of abuse there was nothing left of my former self, no love or joy, just doing the only thing I was good at, again and again and again for someone elses desires.

@TKR-ox9ff

7 күн бұрын

I hope you are doing ok

Episode 4 is my favorite… as hard as it is to watch. Great action in the penultimate scene, Chaggie cuteness sprinkled in that shows just how deeply they love each other, and some genuinely hilarious moments that always make me bust laughing… But then you have the strongest written parts of the episode and they’re utterly heartbreaking The hardest scene to watch IMO is the scene in Angel’s dressing room after Charlie accidentally started a fire in the studio. It’s to the point now that when I watch the episode as the scene ends just after Val forcefully drags Angel out of the dressing room, I always have to pause the episode and calm myself down because I’m sobbing so hard during the scene. And then you have the music video for Poison, (and just the song in general), showing very openly just what poor Angel is constantly subjected to pretty much on a daily basis. It’s my favorite song from the show despite how heartbreaking it is because it is genuinely still such 🔥 and is just amazing to listen to. Then you have Angel’s mental breakdown after getting back to the hotel and unsuccessfully trying to flirt with Husk. He’s been working under Valentino for so long and he is so used to being used for his body that he thinks it’s the only worthwhile thing about him. Finally there’s Angel’s breakdown to Husk outside the bar after Husk saves Angel from getting roofied. Tensions between these two had hit their boiling point, three strikes and you’re out. The first time Husk called Angel fake he brushed it off. The second time he blew up at Husk and Husk called his bluff, leading to his mental breakdown where he talks about his body in a self degrading manner because it’s what he’s so used to doing or having done to him. The third time he finally breaks down and opens up to Husk about his trauma, something that just moments before he incredulously said he wasn’t going to do because of how Husk had treated him. Sorry this is such a long comment I have ADHD so I tend to ramble on and on often, especially for something I’m passionate about such as Masquerade for it’s brilliant story telling. It’s both heartwarming and heartbreaking with occasional hilarious moments to help lighten the mood a bit before hitting you with another devastating gut punch.

honestly when I watched the show, I always felt like his redemption arc was rushed and I'm glad I'm not alone on that feeling. When Charlie goes up to heaven and uses angel dust as proof that her hotel is working, it kinda made confused on how much time has passed for her to confidently use angel as such. Episode 4 felt like the beginning of his redemption and Episodes later when we are told he's almost all better gave me whiplash tbh.

I don't see this mentioned alot, but i prefer Nifty in the pilot than in the actual show. In the pilot, she actually acts like an adult women instead of an child who needs the other characters babysitting her. She was also one of the few characters that still retain viewpoints from the era she was alive (I'm betting they took that out in case their would be people who thought the show was agreeing with those views).

I do think that Angle Dusk was flanderized before the show was ever release like his character was created over a decade ago.

despite this video, AD is still my fav. char. though you made pretty good points in terms of how Angel is portrayed. im no writing genius but this video really helped alot

14:11 No that's definitely what the show should have been about considering the premise of the hotel 🫤

i kinda hate to agree but i do time on small time can hurt the opening up

I feel like the biggest problem with both of Viv's shows is pacing, it feels like she doesn't know what is the important part of the story that needs the time to get dedicated to it. For example the last episode of Helluva Boss just pushes the most important and interesting part to the very end and then ties it up so fast that i didn't even get to feel anything in time and was basically left not understanding what the shit just happened, the same way Blitzø did. You could say that it was intentional but it didn't feel like it

i don't like Hazbin/helluva very much (or at all tbh) but i genuinely feel like the pilot of Hazbin was better written than the entirety of both shows combined

I love how Angel Dust entire character is,"I AM OPENLY SEXUAL." Literally everywhere he goes, everyone he talks too, everything he does revoles around him being promiscuous. Then like Episode 3 or 4 I'm supposed to feel bad for him because he has a pimp, cause he sells his body, cause he uses drugs... If he doesn't like selling his body and doing drugs why is that all he talks about doing? Why doesn't he try to change? Angel Dust is meant to be a victim, but he placed himself in that situation. Its clear he wasn't deceived, he wasn't tricked, no one forced him into this life, it's what Angel Dust chose for himself. I'm supposed to feel bad for the guy who keeps making piss poor decisions and never learns a lesson or tries to be better? We have one scene in the club where he protects his friend from the Pimp, but by the End of the Season Angel Dust is still slutty, still reckless, still a drug addict. He doesn't want to change, so why is he a victim? He doesn't even try to be better. One episode is not enough.

In general, the problem the show has, that wasn't really in the pilot is the concept of telling the viewer everything straight in the face. Mainly the dialogue. There is almost no space for you to interpret something because everything is so on the nose. Someone is depressed? They will straight up say it. Someone has a flaw? The character themselves or someone else will straight up say it and that's really sad, because the characters would be genuinely interesting if not for the fact that we do not have to think about them

Want pilot Angel dust? Watch TADC & specifically watch it for Jax.

@hyomin_live_4_heichou

Ай бұрын

Jax is more like show Angel than pilot Angel ngl

@Barakon

Ай бұрын

@@hyomin_live_4_heichou But he’s intentionally made to be an ass because he’s bored, & they still got Kovach’s dry & snide delivery.

@hyomin_live_4_heichou

Ай бұрын

@@Barakon Yea but Jax’s intentions seem more malicious than unintentional to me. He’s fully aware that he’s mean, and just doesn’t give a crap about it.

@Barakon

Ай бұрын

@@hyomin_live_4_heichou but hey, being a jerk on purpose because he’s bored & trapped somewhere with no exit is better then purposefully liking to watch people squirm because they like perpetuating some sort of cycle of abuse so they feel less helpless…y’a know…Jax is still sort of likeable, in terms of being a fun villain to hate. However Angel Dust is more just idk, kinda gross to watch? At least for Kross here. It’s still about doing it because they think it’s funny more than because they think it’s cathartic or even sensual. You don’t get the impression that Jax is doing it to get off to people’s anguish like they’re a worshipper of Slannesh. Jakeneutron has a song called Jax toy that summarizes my point, even if I may concede & agree that it is more like the show’s depiction of Angel Dust in terms of cruelty. But it’s just that Jax kept the “doing it for the lols cuz they’re bored” part intact.

@hyomin_live_4_heichou

Ай бұрын

@@Barakon I suppose he does do it for fun, but my impression was he does it for a mix of entertainment and just for the sake of being a jerk(especially towards Ragatha, god bless that poor woman). I do agree that Jax is more likable if I had to compare between him and show Angel(though that’s probably just me, lol). Don’t get me wrong, I don’t say this because I dislike Jax, I think he’s a really likable character who’s just morally flawed.

I personally disagree with most of the complaints you have towards Angel Dust. But, I'm not saying your wrong for what you said about him in the series and not just because I am a fan of Angel myself. I don't have an issue with Angel in the first 3 episodes of Hazbin Hotel because I'm personally just used to him making these crude jokes. Whenever I watch the Pilot and the show, I don't see that much of a difference between the two. I've known the pilot ever since it was new on KZread and when the show came out this year, I don't really see a difference where the pilot did better than the show did Angel's behavior with his crude jokes. This showcases that Angel doesn't take redemption that seriously at first and it is expected to be unlikeable in the first couple of episodes. Episode 4 is personal favorite episode of the series for how we dive into a deeper look into Angel's character and why he had to keep this facade of confidence and sassiness on to cope with the abuse he goes through. He also showcases that he does care for the others around him and didn't want them to be under the same pain he goes through. That is what I admire him in the series, despite the season only having 8 episodes. I took the time to watch your video on Angel Dust and your critiques are fair, but the way how I view Angel is that I don't agree with everything you said in the video. And even though I am not an abuse victim, I adore Angel Dust as the character who lets me experience seeing how these kinds of traumas are just horrible and why he is at the Hotel in the first place.

I don't know if you can really blame just Angel for the whole "stupid hotel" thing. All of hell seems to share that sentiment, and to me it reads as angel says and does two different things. He's negative sure, but there's something to be said about the fact that he still stays and plays along sometimes. This is hell, if people think something stupid enough to not be worth their time they will walk away without a second thought. Everybody is shitty down there anyways, so who cares right? But the fact that he stays seems to tell me where his heart is at. I also think the reason husk is able to just "know" everything about the characters is reasonably based within the lore of the universe. Husk is a bartender, and there's some truth in the notion that bartenders can see a truer side of people, because people often take their masks off when they get drunk. But the key detail to me, is that husk reveals he was once an overlord himself. The overlords in hazbin hotel gain their power by making deals to acquire souls. In order to get something so close to someone from them, you have to know what they will be willing to sacrifice it for, meaning you have to know what their deepest desire is, and how to leverage that against them. Husk is obviously not an overlord anymore, but that skill doesn't just go away. I think as well the reason Angel seems to push boundaries in the show now is that for him, it doesn't hurt him as much if somebody rejects the persona he portrays because that's not really him. He pushes people away because he doesn't want them to see how damaged he truly is. At least the things he deals with now are things he knows how to deal with.

No true. There was something really interesting about Angel’s joie de vivre in the pilot, and as much as I do think Angel’s initial unlikeability was an interesting choice & that they depicted it as a healthy coping mechanism, and them commenting on it was cool...idk i do miss pilot Angel. Excellent points here!!

13:13 he was protecting his friend and someone he clearly cares about and that kind of overpowers the trauma speaking from experience.

I Kinda see myself in angel dust, sometimes i make people mad because i try to make jokes or end up making people mad. And sometimes i feel trapped in a situation with a ''obvious'' way out. He is attached in bad things, that he hates, he knows he hates it, but he is still too attached. And seeing that his internal fight is more about leaving valentino than ending the contract, because, he Can quit, out of the studio val cant do anything to him different from what he can do to everyone, is so interesting. He have a problem, but he is attached to it, and his fight is about losing this attachment, that is why i identify with him so much.

Everybody seems to forget that the pacing had to be rushed to fit into 8 episodes. It was a possibly 20+ episode plot squeezed into 8. Angel was go in big heavy on the sexual comments and interactions because it was expected of him. “It’s who I need to be,” how much you wanna bet Val told him to keep up that facade for his image and fans

@oofyikes9912

2 ай бұрын

If your show goes from 20 to 8 episodes then you need to take some things out. The Vs weren’t really needed (except some moments with Valentino), Mimzy literally showed up to do infodump and dipped. I don’t doubt that they already cut some things out but „kill your darlings” advice comes to mind

@HImitsuRose4869

2 ай бұрын

@@oofyikes9912 The Vees are important to more than one of the main characters, and are the main villains in the next season. Not introducing them until next season would be equivalent to a typical ‘a new villain of the week’ plot which is so old and not fit for this show. Not only did Mimzy give us a better, and more accurate backstory of Alastor, but she’s one of Vivzie’s original characters fans have been waiting to see in the show. She had two seconds of screen time in the pilot during Inside of Every Demon is a Rainbow towards the end. Having her show up not only gives us more depth to Alastor’s character, but is also a treat for the long time fans

@oofyikes9912

2 ай бұрын

@@HImitsuRose4869 this is what I mean by kill your darlings. „It’s a treat for long time fans” but she’s still a completely useless character, we could have gotten the backstory from a different character and nothing would have changed. The Vs are not really that important. Valentino? Yeah. Vox? He’s there to do a song and some comedic relief, it seems that he was supposed to play a bigger role but he doesn’t. Don’t even remember the name of the last one And yes you absolutely can introduce villian of the second season in the second season - it’s been done. But where did you even get the info that they will be the antagonists of second season?

@HImitsuRose4869

2 ай бұрын

@@oofyikes9912 How did you not know? Vivziepop said it in an interview. And did you completely miss what I meant about the ‘new villain of the week”? It’s a cliché done for kids cartoons that defeat the bad guy at the end of the season so the writers have to invent a whole new villain for the hero’s to fight to keep the show going. That’s not How Hazbin Hotel works. Val owns Angel’s soul and Vox has history with Alastor. Their introduction in season one makes more sense than to wait till season two. Then to only introduce Velvette in season two would cause a continuity error because she died in the 2010s and we can assume she joined pretty soon after her death. They’re all partners. That’s why they’re called the VeeS. And lastly, Mimzy is the only character who knew Alastor when he was alive, and was there when he came to hell. She’s the one who knew what overlords Alastor went after. Her story goes more in-depth than Vaggie’s from the pilot

@oofyikes9912

2 ай бұрын

@@HImitsuRose4869 why would you assume random people watched a vivziepop interview? I think I know why you can’t take any criticism of this show lol

I have been trying to think about what is wrong with Angel and how he is presented as an abuse victim. this criticism is very opposite from other ones saying "Gross! you showed graphic abuse over a pop song!" and saying "you didn't show enough abuse" From someone who has been abused agreed. The problem is it needed more abuse shown. We didn't need another graphic scene, just angel slowly starting to open up more and maybe a scene where Angel comes back from the studio and he is grumpy. I appreciate vivze decided to write a good portrayal of an abuse victim. What I didn't like was Hazbin hotel had horrendous pacing problems and as a result, not enough time to think about things like, "OK I made angel better too fast"

@laurav5767

Ай бұрын

I Hope you recovered from this Traumatic experience… I agree with your point, the Show needs to Put more awarness of Angel's abuse and Not making Valentino so comical in the Show.

It`s like he lost most of his charm from pilot. This is true about the whole show in general, I think what caused this mostly was simply long time between firing up with the idea and actually getting the opportunity to make it happen. Also that damn part with angels, almost everything about heaven is at least weak, I wonder how much better it would look like if it was focused only on hotel and personal stories of demons there.

Im sorry from the amount of replies I've left on this video. It just gave me great joy someone worded my feelings on this since i couldn't myself 😭

Are you going to review Hilda season 3

@Krossxc

2 ай бұрын

Probably

in general 8 episodes for a show like this was a devious ass choice. I’d go as far as saying 10 wouldnt have even been enough. If they really wanted to keep ALL these elements, Angel Dust related and others, atleast 13 episodes woulda been better. but ik its probably not their choice

@Krossxc

Ай бұрын

yeah I'm sure they would have liked to do more episodes than 8 if they could have. Shame too, because I see a lot of people who talk about the show like Viv and her team had 100% control over every aspect of production, which is not true of any TV show's creative staff, let alone a team as young as this one

Adam dies..... guess we just haft to wait till Valentino dies too...but it sucks they are going to make us wait....a very long wait.

I dont necessarily disagree with any of your points, and i do think that his character would have been better if it was more like the pilot, but personally i still quite enjoyed his character. I didnt think that he was an a hole just to piss everyone off, not at all. I never saw it as malicious at all, what i see in it is someone trying to push people away when they get close and constantly appear alof and annoying so they arent forced to take anything seriously. We see this a lot in the episode with sirpentious, angel doesnt seem to like the exercizes at all, and thinks people view him more as his persona than himself, so he leans into it. Both as escapism and as a way to avoid having to put the work in. He seems to have the attitude that if people are only going to view him as a drug addicted s3x worker, than thats all he has use being. I think the sirpentious episode really fleashed that out so subtly and well! He sees someone be better at something than him, feels like his friends see him as one dimensional, so what does he do? He listens to val insult him and lean in even harder to his persona. Its all done really well, and i think one of the best moments in his arc. I wish we had more time to have more of those scenes. Secondly, he doesnt appear to be 'fixed.' At all. We get an inclination that the only reason he can be around val is because nifty needs his help, which is very realistic. Also, in that same episode, we do see him slip right back into old habbits of drugs and alchool, he just has bonded more with the main cast and tries to protect them. It all seems rather natural. I agree that it could have been better, but i feel like a lot of these critques are more personal preference than anything. I think they handled his character a little more subtle, and i think its fine hes unlikeble. Like, being abused does not make one a good OR likeable person. Sometimes it makes you a bad AND unlikeable person. What matters is we understand him, and we can understand his growth. Bojack from bojack horsemen for example is not always a likeable person, but we understand him so well we still root for him regardless. And i think thats fine

With Angel you do raise good points in Angel in the pilot was only reacting to how people are acting towards him, where as season 1 Angel more or less is just being obnoxious because he feels like it. Given that Angel does have trust issues towards people that appear to stem far deeper then just Valentino. After all, Angel himself has existed in Hell for over 70 years, so he knows he would be rejected or things he have been working toward fall through. Part of the obnoxious behavior is so if he is going to be rejected they might as well plunge in the knife and get it over with. While in other cases, he knows his associations with the Vee's, Valentino in particular, could cause problems for the Hotel. So as long as he's able to keep the ballence between his work life and the hotel things are good. However, Angel is also related to a group of dangerous people. While that organization hasn't made their presence offically known or shown any interest in the hotel. The fact that Angel has any sort of connection to people like Alastor, the Princess of Hell, and now Lucifer are not going to be seen as purely coincidental.

dont diss my boi adam

I agree

They should rewrite or fix his character or just replace him.

An amazing point that was made by the creator Schnee in his Angel Dust analysis video- Just because an act is an act doesn't mean it's not real. A good actor doesn't pretend to feel something, they pull on whatever experiences they have to make it real for the screen. Husk's assumption of Angel is that he's ego driven, and that the persona he puts on is a mask for the fact that he doesn't have self-worth. Self-worth is not the issue though- it's agency, control, and the resilience to endure his life. The unbothered famous porn star isn't an act, it's who he has to become in order to withstand the fact that he's lost all those things. Angel's words to Husk outside the bar, "It's not an act, it's who I have to be," is what changes Husk's method for helping him. Instead of telling him "You're not the invincible porn star you pretend to be," he gives him a new persona that he can adopt to have some semblance of that agency and resilience that he signed away- That he's a loser, and that's okay. This is incredibly effective for Angel because it gives him an identity of his own that's entirely disconnected from Valentino. The famous porn star that he embodies to protect himself is something that he received from Val. Without Val, he wouldn't have the one defense mechanism that has worked for him. But Angel being a loser is something completely internal, and accepting that about himself is an act of real agency born from his choices. When we see him confidently confront Valentino later in the club, he's able to do so because he doesn't have to rely on Val to give him the identity he uses to be strong. Instead, he can be the recovering loser that he is, which is an identity he forged himself that cannot be taken from him.

nice video that i respectfully disagree with. the video is well thought out!

True but angle holda a speicle places in my heart because i acted like him when i was being groomed and saed and angle is the reason i haver came out abot being SAed

Angel is the best character in the show bro

@VelvetteSimp

2 ай бұрын

He's a good character albeit overrated

@Vampyroteou

Ай бұрын

Concept art angel was the best