As a Black Belt in BJJ, I'll say that grappling is grappling is grappling. I've been saying the same thing for years: the thing that separates Freestyle from Greco from Catch from Judo from BJJ is not the techniques. The techniques do the same thing regardless of which art you're practicing. The thing that separates these arts is the rules. Take a bunch of experienced modern Catch wrestlers, have them train solely according to IBJJF No-Gi rules, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that it doesn't take a very long time before they start looking no different than any other BJJ No-Gi competitor with a strong wrestling background. As for learning to adapt to the Gi, don't worry. You'll start to develop that same sort of sense for when and where you are being grabbed, gripped, and held as you have with your own body in Catch. Just as a sword becomes a familiar extension of your own limbs for an experienced fencer, the Gi becomes a part of you when you train BJJ.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the reassurance. I have no doubt I'll get up the learning curve, and hopefully it will be a lot quicker than it would otherwise becasue of the Catch background I have. To be honest I'm quite enjoying being the new guy who isn't expected to know anything again. :) I think you are right that the rule-set defines the style, and that someone with a decent level of skill in one rule-set will do well in another once they have adapted. I do think that there are differences in approach between Catch and BJJ, but again you can probably put these down to ways to better achieve the goals of that specific rule-set.

@nikoskabbadias

5 жыл бұрын

I think that wrestling and BJJ have a key difference. BJJ doesnt focus as much on the physical strength. Some BJJ schools focus almost solely on technique. From a self defense point of view, if you re gonna grapple in a fight, you need to make sure you can take as many punches as possible. Chances are you 'll take at least one.

@johnnemo6509

3 жыл бұрын

Rules make fights

@activatebpm

2 жыл бұрын

I was gonna type out pretty much exactly what you did, swapping out your black belt for my blue. Grappling is grappling, and it's just about which rules you're abiding by, and which techniques you happen to train the most. Well said!

@perfectsplit5515

7 ай бұрын

@@nikoskabbadias " you need to make sure you can take as many punches as possible. "Chances are you 'll take at least one." I think Mario Sperry said it best in his Vale-Tudo series, "You will get hit, but it will not be 100%"

Cross training is always a win. Puts more tools in your toolbox, as it were.

@EnglishMartialArts

5 жыл бұрын

Surrey, near Guildford.

@tobywri

3 жыл бұрын

Jack of all trades is still a master of nothing

@johnnemo6509

3 жыл бұрын

@@tobywri specialization is good, but its also good to investigate and learn from other styles. Most martial arts become insular and end up learning only how to fight themselves ..kicking styles learn to fight kickers, grapplers learn to fight grapplers; their training and sparring rules re-enforce this. I travel a lot so where ever I end up, I try to find the best teacher regardless of style and learn from them ( translation I get my arse kicked and pay for the privilege). I have a core style I practice but examine how it answers the questions other styles raise.

@sinfinite7516

Жыл бұрын

@@tobywri the whole quote is “the jack of all trades master of none, but often times better than a master of one.”

I started bjj and went to catch. I find them to be almost necessary to complete a grappler (i'm by no means a complete grappler, bybthe way). bjj is great for the back work, escapes, and subs. Catch is great for the wrestling, top control, and pressure. There are also quite a few subs that catch does better. Catch is where I really learned the kimura (double wrist lock, excuse me). I knew of it from bjj, but catch taught me how to really finish it and get it from all angles. same with keylock, hammerlock, arm triangle, things like that. bjj is where I learned the rear naked, guillotine, triangle choke, and so many sweeps and guards. I love them both.

@theonlyEYEBROWKING

7 жыл бұрын

Greatest answer!

@rollingkneebar3534

7 жыл бұрын

John - For those in the US that might not have any sort of access to catch, learn some folkstyle or Olympic freestyle. The submissions won't be there, but the top control and takedowns will enhance your game.

@IHateHandleNames

7 жыл бұрын

Rolling Kneebar I do practice a bit of Greco with some of my sparring partners, but I wouldn't know where to find wrestling instruction as a man no longer in high school. I also don't have the time right now to attend two gyms and hopeto learn anything.

@ryanfadden3200

3 жыл бұрын

Kimura came from judo, it's called Ude Garami.

@Halbared

2 жыл бұрын

Double wrist lock is a mainstay. It’s great to see videos of Billy Robinson teach it.

I subscribed because of your book collection in the background thumbs up, I'd love to experience some catch wrestling techniques to add to my jiu jitsu

Being part British I'm a big fan of traditional English Martial Arts .

I nearly miss this little gem of yours lad. Enjoy your martial journey. 🤔👊👍🙏

It's really interesting to see this, as you were the one that set me on the path to bjj. I've done it for a few months now, and first hears about it from a channel that covered catch wrestling. And I found that from looking up "what's a grovit" on KZread after you referenced it in one of your videos. And now, to see you not just doing bjj, but in a blue gb gi identical to mine except for the size, it's really both amusing and reminds me about what that one reference to grovits could have meant for me in a few years time.

As a fan i really hope to see catch wrestling take off more in the UK, watching the Billy Robinson clips on here way back opened me eyes. This channel too since i found it has added to my excitement at the future of catch wrestling in the UK thanks.

British guy here living in Japan training BJJ. Thanks for talking about this. It reminds me a lot of when I started BJJ since my first experience was doing Pancrase (no gi). I would often choke myself out by turning the wrong way. It goes away eventually. You also reminded me of how I felt I was in a straight-jacket when I first started training. Those were good times. Since catch started in the UK it would be cool if you could start teaching it and keeping it alive. Cross-training is always a good thing. I've enjoyed cross-training judo with BJJ. I would do catch if I ever moved back and there was a place available.

@Man_v_Cars

7 жыл бұрын

Think you might find there are more Catch instructors in Japan than the UK.

@Shinji91

7 жыл бұрын

UWF Snake Pit Japan and AACC are some good places in Japan if you are close to either of those.

I've been doing BJJ for only about 6 months in a Renzo Gracie academy in the US. Depending on your group and your professor, it is very possible that you could turn some people on to Catch wrestling. we've got an collegiate greco-roman wrestler (purple belt) who teaches one class a week heavily influenced by greco-roman wrestling. lots of your teammates are likely interested and willing to learn. After you've built some rapport definitely mention your catch background and see if anyone is interested! best of luck

@fabriziogarreta7160

6 жыл бұрын

lovezvidz which renzo Gracie do u train at? U in nyc

@kickinwinghotboi883

Жыл бұрын

Are you listing Collegiate (Folkstyle wrestling) and Greco-Roman (One of the styles done in Olympic wrestling) separately, or listing them in numerical order in which he trained each style? If you already know, I apologize, I'm not trying to be a know-it-all and correct you, but I rather look at it like I'm giving you correct information and maybe clearing things up if you weren't sure whether they were different or not. Collegiate and high/middle school wrestling is known as Folkstyle wrestling. The wrestling that takes place at the Olympics are Greco-Roman wrestling and Freestyle Wrestling. Then, as you know from this video, we have Catch Wrestling which isn't done in any schools/colleges or Olympic competitions and I believe was adopted by the Pro Wrestling scene, after some modifications were done to the art, as I'm sure if they were to use the actual pins from Catch, it would put the opponent in way more pain than they already appear to be because Catch Wrestling pins can be extremely painful

@perfectsplit5515

7 ай бұрын

Re: "I've been doing BJJ for only about 6 months in a Renzo Gracie academy in the US" Does he still sandbag students?

Cool video. I train BJJ and did some judo. Never had a chance to do any catch, but it sounds interesting. Saw Josh Barnett fight Dean Lister of course, and that was awesome. Your perspective on pinning sounds a bit like a judo view. In judo you can win with a pin, so they'll have side control and scarf hold for days, but aren't as clued in about guard or submissions. Of course, judo has the gi, so grip fighting and awareness of grips is a key part of it, unlike catch. Does catch have leg locks? My vague impression is that it's no-gi with lots of neck cranks.

@TheHortoncrow

6 жыл бұрын

ManicParroT Catch has leg locks. The primary attack is head, neck, arm, wrist, and thumb, but leg and ankle are done too. Whatever works.

@perfectsplit5515

7 ай бұрын

Josh Barnett is also a second degree faixa-preta under Rigan Machado.

Exactly! Fellow wrestler here - I'd also prefer to do my own stuff, but the only things around here are Judo and BJJ, so you work with what you got. I can learn from others' stuff, and also learn how to counter it with my own. We can all learn from the early catch wrestling/judo rivalry from the Early-Mid 20th Century, with the end result being some Judo stuff coming into Catch, and some Catch stuff coming into Judo - until the sport and/or entertainment versions of both essentially took these out. The best Catch techniques I've learnt were from an old traditional Judoka. Everybody: there's nothing wrong with having your own preferred style, and indeed thinking yours is the best - but never testing it against all the other styles ruins the point.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Well said!

Really enjoyed your video! I'm interested to see your progress actually, what is your take on recording yourself rolling/drilling? I am interested to see what differences may occur in a session of BJJ rolling with someone who has experience in catch wrestling. Aside from that, your points are very valid as well. I remember reading a post from John Danaher that said something very similar to your view on the game "slowing down" and how much more aware your were of the chokes you would be caught in. Danaher made the post about the differences in training No-gi vs. Gi BJJ. His main points were that, since there is no jacket in No-Gi, there are less places for one to make strong grips. Since there is less to hold, maintaining position is more difficult, so the overall game is quicker. In Gi, with the jacket, one must be more conscious of chokes. You can really view the Gi as though it is literally a rope around your neck for the opponent to grab onto and choke you with. With this in mind, training Gi will help you realize this, and teach you one of the most important lessons in all grappling: protecting your neck. Finally, the friction of the Gi along with the access to grips, slows the game down.

Perfect. Damned perfect. I have done wrestling, CaCC, and BJJ and am partial to the Gi BJJ because of the thinking game. Excellent post.

@EnglishMartialArts

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Love what i have seen of Catch wresting.... one of my biggest regrets was that I was in Arkansas while Billy Robinson was living there, and didn't know. If I had known I would have at least tried to contact him. I like BJJ very much (excellent art), but I've found at a number of Barras i've visited the focus is almost entirely the ground game (which I really enjoy), with much less time given throws and take down's as entries to ground work even less as damaging techniques in their own right (IMHO if you throw an opponent and he gets up you did it wrong..this is a weakness of sport Judo). I don't know if this is common among BJJ schools or just my experience, I've heard instructors like Carlson Gracie had a more self defense orientated practice. 2nd thing that concerned me was I noticed higher grades tend to appear more passive. This I understand is part of the "game" waiting for the opponent to make a mistake and learning to capitalize on it. However if practiced to excess this could be a bad habit of passivity in a street situation. That being said respect to all arts everyone has something good to share.

@perfectsplit5515

7 ай бұрын

" I've heard instructors like Carlson Gracie had a more self defense orientated practice. " What I read was that Carlson and Rolls Gracie integrated wrestling content into Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. It put Carlson at odds with Helio, as I understand it.

I've wondered why the pinning came to be. Did it serve some sort of function in a type of combat? Like pinning a guy down quick while a peer dispatched in group scenarios? IDK. What s the deal with pinning?

BJJ and Catch complement each other very well. I enjoy Catch more, but training both is the best way to go. BJJ is especially helpful for teaching high school and collegiate wrestlers how to "relax" on the mat. And the gi does completely change the game.

I've been training jiu-jitsu for a year and 8 months now, earning my blue belt this Saturday, and I think it was definitely a good choice for you to invest in this martial art. My experience with wrestlers has been very much a challenge, the speed and the power does require me to provide more technical movements and thoughts versus the everyday average guy, and wrestlers I've rolled with have progressed faster than I expected them to just by their impressive grappling skills. It's a lot of fun, and I'm happy that you found it and are enjoying it too.

@ijustwannaleaveacommentony6511

7 жыл бұрын

i'm supposed to get my blue-belt today. i've been training a similar amount of time. i was told i would have to give my (brazilian blackbelt) instructor ~120 USD for my blue belt, as a "gift to say thank you" or something. is this normal? i'm loathe to pay it as i believe the not inconsiderable gym fees are thanks enough. thanks for your reply.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks, and congratulations on the promotion, a moment to be proud of.

@gxtmfa

7 жыл бұрын

Congratulations on the promotion! A blue belt in only 8 months is ridiculous!

Glad to know I wasn't the only one that felt this way. I'm trying to beat the habit of stalling when I gain control because I've trained to pin instead of choke or submit the opponent. I wouldn't exactly call myself a Jiujitsu fighter but I'm just an MMA guy that trains in Brazilian JJ. Great stuff tho

Can you make catch wrestling videos? I'm talking about you teaching some online

The little I know about Catch Wrestling it sounds amazing. I didn't wrestling in high school and picked up BJJ after seeing the Gracie's in UFC I. Even freestyle wrestling, though clearly a sport, adapts pretty easily I think to fighting, as wrestlers tend to end up in dominant positions and many dominant positions are just better for throwing strikes that can't be countered in an equal fashion (think ground and pound). You add in the catch submissions and I would think it's pretty formidable stuff. I also love BJJ. I like that it's a sport that, as I've aged (mid 40s) I can still roll and break a good sweat and catch some of the younger guys. I really cannot see myself wrestling due to some old man knee and back issues. But I can pull guard and work a nice methodical game and have fun. I really feel like all Grapplers are 'on the same team' so to speak and that what mostly dictates what a 'style' is-is the rules you chose to put in place. If you use Greco Roman Wrestling rules (no holds below the waist) you won't get Catch Wrestling or BJJ. (Though you might get some no Gi Judo guys adapting to it somewhat quickly). If you allow pins, you won't get the guard play, etc. It's more a question of, what rules do you like. Maybe the best point about catch wresting is that in a random fight, avoiding being flat on your back is probably a very, very good thing strategy wise. If I actually had to use BJJ for self defense I definitely wouldn't pull guard. I obviously can work reasonably affectively from guard if I had to, but in real world fights I think getting back on your feet an assessing multiple attackers, escape routes, etc is a pretty important element.

@rollsgracie268

3 жыл бұрын

Bryant: yes with one giant exception… If you really have to play defense someone’s too big too strong you gonna be on your back that’s reality and if you were good enough to be dangerous from the position but if you are that good it’s a five star tool

@bryantharris5914

3 жыл бұрын

@@rollsgracie268 Fair enough.

@perfectsplit5515

7 ай бұрын

" in a random fight, avoiding being flat on your back is probably a very, very good thing strategy wise" My Airbnb housemate in 2019 assaulted me and we went into a clinch. He took me down and I was in closed guard. When he tried to drive his elbow into my throat, I put him in a high lock guard and did an improvised armbar on him. Like a violin armbar, except that his hand was not on the crook of my neck. Instead, my left hand was pushing up on his wrist while my right hand was cupping down on his elbow. My knee was pressing down on his shoulder. His roommate pleaded with me to let him go. That is why I hate it when I hear internet @$$h@ts tell me, "BJJ is worthless outside the cage".

Impressive collection of books there brother. I can see a few David Gemmell paperbacks. Very nice.

Novice at either, but one time a friend had asked me to grapple, and I had just watched your video on chancery holds and quartering your legs to avoid getting tossed off and it seemed to work pretty effectively, he countered by trying to hook my head under his leg which forced me to curl up a little bit and he was able to throw/roll me off.

I was fortunate enough to have gone from judo to BJJ and when i moved from NYC to Asheville North Carolina . Started training with some of the catch wrestlers here . John Husky

nice one! bjj is an amazing martial art, it has a lot in common with catch, especially when you do no gi, have fun!

Excellent Channel I'm glad you made a point about wrestling specifically catch wrestling vs Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I've done a variety of different styles of wrestling from Russian, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Japanese and even indigenous folk styles from South America. I'm also a teacher the reality is that most grappling was based for combat purposes. So for example most of the old Styles have a hitting and they throwing component. For example Sancho Chinese boxing has a variety of different throws but no grappling. But the throwing is what really matters same thing as Judo. I once been thrown so hard that I almost broke my collarbone arm was damaged. So there is a difference between combative grappling and Sport grappling. Brazilian jiu-jitsu has also gone through a Renaissance itself the style that most practice and United States is very aggressive with a lot of catch wrestling tactics that you can see in Collegiate wrestling. While being in the guard is important from of combative state being on your back is not optimal. We also have to take into consideration to rain and what kind of clothes we wear. You should grapple in a suit with a tie I guarantee you you will find out very interesting techniques that you can't and can do with the shirt and tie and even a blazer. Most styles of European grappling was done through singlets but the reality is that people work clothes and battle and I suggest if you want to find out how it is to Grapple Bend traditional European clothes you should do it. There's also grappling in Japan with armor that's tremendously different and it's also done with various knives. I think there is also a channel on KZread of a practitioner who teaches grappling Persian Style. Good luck and I love the channel

Have you tried no gi BJJ? I'm back to BJJ after a layoff and find that previous wrestling experience lends itself better to no gi BJJ than the Gi for the exact reasons you explained

There's no better; only different and you explained the differences nicely. I wrestled in high school (US) and there were several times a guy would shoot, I would sprawl, and feel his neck against my radial bone. I would think, "if only I could choke him out..." because all I would have to do is lay my other forearm across the back of his neck and have a triangle choke.

Also check out, Eduardo Telles. I believe his game will suit you for obvious reasons. He willingly gives his back and attacks from that position. If I ever train at a club that roll only from Knees I immediately give my back. Working from this position has helped me build a strong defence & also a tricky offence from this same position. You do not have to play off your back Oz. Have fun. Much respect. Chris 😄👍😎

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

I'll check him out Chris, thanks. And thanks for being an inspiration to me and many others.

@legitprowrestling6653

7 жыл бұрын

EnglishMartialArts Thank you Sir.

Are there any catch wrestling schools in the midlands?

Very good video.

I've trained in both Judo and Catch Wrestling, Judo being the Art I've had more time to train in and Catch being newer to me. In addition, I also have an extensive background in Kung Fu. For me, I preffer Catch since there is a lot of Wrestling involved which makes it difficult for an opponent to take me down. Once on the ground if im pined, in can bridge or use my legs as used in judo and BJJ to sweep. As a stricker my goal Wether sweeping or bridging, Is to get back on my feet. Wrestling has a lot of good moves to escape, counter and get to ur feet, it's not just about pinning. Hope this gives an already known perspective. Thanks for sharring your video.

Right on!

did you see the video from fighttips on old school boxing

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

The one with the palm strikes? If so yes I did.

@petmagroin

7 жыл бұрын

Saw that one too. The bareknuckle boxing guys in my club are very sceptic to the whole palm striking thing. They also think he dreamt up his facts about the art.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

I'm certainly not convinced by his argument. It's certainly not an approach I've ever come across. And he gets a number of things demonstrably wrong - grappling not being allowed - no-one fighting in the stance Mendoza was famed for fighting in etc. Perhaps a reply video might be in order.

@paulmosher1464

7 жыл бұрын

Regarding Palm Strikes and their efficacy, do a KZread search for Bas Rutten Palm Strike and see what a Professional has to say on the subject. Whether Shayne's Bare Knuckle ideas are legit or not is open to investigation. But Palm Strikes and the old fashioned Clothesline used in a fight or self defense both work. :)

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

I don't doubt palm strikes efficiency per se. But I do doubt their use in Classical Pugilism. And lets be honest, just because Bas can destroy people wiith them doesn't mean the rest of us mere mortals could.

I wrestled in high school and then did gi BJJ for a few years after that and I didn't really have the same experience. Of course I was a freshman in HS in 1995 and was a huge UFC fan from the time of UFC 2. I'd done traditional Jujutsu and Judo since I was very young so the gi wasn't totally unfamiliar to me. Anyway, when I was learning to wrestle I tried to do what I saw Royce Gracie doing, of course my coaches told me not to do a lot of that, so I would when I'd wrestle or roll with friends for fun. I definitely developed wrestling instincts in the 8 seasons I wrestled (I did both folkstyle and freestyle in the summers), so by the time I started BJJ, other people thought of me as "the wrestler", but I didn't, I expected it to be a new art. I didn't like the gi, and I still don't, but I learned it. I didn't like being on my back, and I still don't, but I learned it and got comfortable there. So now if I were to grapple someone I'd wrestle, but if I could not outwrestle my opponent or they were much bigger than me, I can play guard, 50/50, berimbolo with a gi, rubber guard, those are all tools in my toolbox. I'd rather scramble and get up, but I can play guard and pass someone's guard if I have to. For me the learning curve wasn't that great. I wanted to be heavy on top and make their life suck underneath me. Then I would find a choke. Ultimately I think they are both great and help you improve in all kinds of ways with your grappling.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

You've just summarised my goals in learning this! :)

Inspiring to see how someone looks at a challenge or issue and seeks to explore and find a solution.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

I think we all sometimes forget this is a journey. Got to keep moving.. :)

@Yeknodathon

7 жыл бұрын

Hmmmm... something profound there; going to have to ponder on that one. Actually, well, pondering some more, Jungian doodads sort of permeate HEMA quite a bit, I find, or rather excite areas of the psyche that would otherwise might wallow in the shadows.. as long as the journey doesn't go to the inner Scunthorpe.. but I suspect one does not have much choice in the matter.

Great insights, grappling is grappling. I recently learned about the story of Ad Santel and his victories over Judoka in Japan. No doubt there were and are a few tremendous catch guys at the highest level but the Brazilians kept alive the idea of no time limit, submission only grappling to the modern day and it's flourished. Catch is just harder to find, and havent we replicated it with modern no-gi JJ tournements?

@jacobharris954

2 жыл бұрын

Eddie bravo tournament and A.D.C.C

I train at Fighting Fit in Stone and at Active Arts in Stafford under coach Chris Paines and we (our group of bruise brothers and sisters) have been hybridizing CACC, Greco Roman and free-style, Judo and BJJ for the last 5-6 years. What has been happening is that as one of us may find another avenue/technique/style for submission grappling brought it to the groups and it has been studied the incorporate and analysed and the chaff chucked. Coach Chris (a very good man, a good friend and a bloody good grappler) is so enthusiastic and fanatical about grappling that any and all styles have been incorporated and explored, the escapes the attacks the set-ups the dummies and then worked in to our style. We seem to be going through a Luta Livre phase right now which seems to be kinda like catch-jitsu.

@simonpc123

7 жыл бұрын

I also train specfically BJJ under Dave Briggs. He's a Black belt 1st dan under Ben Poppleton. Dave is sublime as a BBJ player and so very generous and helpful. Ben Poppleton is so good I just don't understand how or what he's doing but he is also really very generous and helpful. great people both. I am very lucky to have the coaches that I have and the group of people to train with.

have you had the opportunity to experience other forms of Folk Wrestling?, in the North Country family you also have the Blackhold styles, then their are the West Country styles and Irish Collar-and Elbow after that you have to look to Continental styles.

It's a good thing to cross train. What you will find when grappling with a Gi is that after training with it for a while when you do take it off your wrestling game will go way up.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

That's what I'm hoping!

Wonder what level the bjj guys were at he was rolling with?

In my humble opinion wrestling is better in a real life situation but bjj has some very interesting concpets and experiences! but the concept of those two are quiet similar but the rules are quiet different. But the more martial arts you try the better! i have to say you are a badass you know pugilism,karate,wrestling,hema and soon to be bjj!! thats the way i wanna gone thnx for all tje insoiration Oz!

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks, that's really nice to hear. If I've helped inspire you to train in something a little obscure and have fun doing so then I'm very happy!

Back in the 90s I was training at a boxing gym in Nashville and there was a guy there teaching pro wrestling and recruiting for a Japanese pro wrestling association. He had his guys doing Hindu pushups and squats, and asked us if we wanted to jump in his class. I thanked him, but no. I wanted nothing to do with “pro rasslin.” It was years later that I realized it had been Billy Robinson. If there had only been an”KZread’s” back in those days….

@EnglishMartialArts

2 жыл бұрын

Ah the opportunities we miss.

@williamsmith8790

2 жыл бұрын

@@EnglishMartialArts Ain’t it the truth.

You must have read Blue Blood On The Mat by Sir Athol Oakley, I'd be interested on your thoughts on it. When I first read, nearly 20 years ago now, I posted about it on The Underground Forum and Tony Cechine said there were a lot of 'inaccuracies', which may well be true, but it's a great read and I've not yet seen anything that goes into any detail on some of the champions at that time and the people he mentions other than footnotes in lists and other small stuff.

@EnglishMartialArts

3 жыл бұрын

I haven't, but I will rectify that!

@RobWitchdoctor

3 жыл бұрын

@@EnglishMartialArts Splendid, keep up the good work, your videos are appreciated.

@EnglishMartialArts

3 жыл бұрын

@@RobWitchdoctor thank you!

In BJJ control over opponent comes from the movement. It is important because every technique has its couter, there are couters to these counters and so on. There's no use of being just heavy on your opponent as it happens in judo or wrestling. It makes the escapes easy because you're predictible. The key is the adaptation: your opponent moves you adjust your posistion, he does the technique - you do the counter. Try not be strong but just flow with the movement.

You should stop by to come train with Catch wrestling alliance in Los Angeles. I am doing both bjj and catch wrestling.

Ive done judo 8 years and bjj 3 i can say from someone whos done mainly gi going from no gi to gi is very difficult its all about grips theres so much more to the gi game but in saying that i found doing no gi was great for defending but very difficult to attack les options you slip when you sweat so harder to attack so i tell people train both so you can have a balanced game

good stuff, my son has done bjj 4 years and is now starting wrestling. he loses to experienced wrestlers but easily beats any other beginners. I think wrestlers can pick up bjj quicker than bjj guys can pick up wrestling, but doing both is the best bet for anyone

I have an extensive background in Judo and in last six years on and off I've been practicing Catch. I preffer Catch over Judo. I still use certain techniques from Judo, but I use what works for me. It's good to cross train as I also have a background in Kung Fu. Catch up until recently has been almost impossible to come across. That's why it's long been referred to as the lost art of hooking.

@jacobharris954

2 жыл бұрын

What kung fu art ?

@z31rider24

2 жыл бұрын

@@jacobharris954 Lua. Hawaiin style Kung Fu. It's mixed with Karate. I also cross trained @ Okinawa Karate in Eagle Rock CA with the late Grand Master Gordon. Senei Richard Triplet is a Black Belt under Master Gordon. Richard has his own school in Lancaster CA. in addition back in 2005 i also had the privilege to train with Black belt Sensei Will out of Patriot Martial Arts also in Eagle Rock CA. Sensei Will is also a Black belt under Master Gordon. This was in early 90's thru mid 2000's. Im extremely thankful to my Instructor for the great opportunity to have been part of the Martial Arts community.

Readers may like to know that E. J. Harrison's book 'Wrestling' (1934) is available from Amazon as a cheap Kindle edition. The book has two chapters on Catch-as-Catch-Can, but his description is more like Olympic Freestyle or American college wrestling than what people seem to think of as Catch wrestling now. He also has a chapter on American 'All-in' professional wrestling, but he clearly regarded a lot of that as 'staged' (already in the 1930s).

I would love to train in catch wrestling but as you mentioned it's quite hard to find places to learn it. I might try BJJ some time in the future though as it looks a lot of fun :D

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

It's certainly fun. Catch is funner, but you take what you can get... :D

@Tim1000064

7 жыл бұрын

Exactly what I was thinking haha :D

Having your back off the ground isnt necessarily a bad thing! I wrestled in high school but have found that getting to the side i with my full guard and a whizzer feels great and affords plenty of sweeping and submission opportunities !

Every time I've tried a catch wrestling move in my bjj class it has ended bad. In my opinion catch is definitely for the strong rather than for the small with technique.

Between Greco-Roman Wrestling, Freestyle Wrestling, Catch Wrestling, Judo, Sambo, and BJJ - BJJ is actually the "oddball" because it is the only style where there is no pinning. Consequently, BJJ people spend the most amount of time in the guard.

Can training bjj teach bad habits for a street fight? (For example, it's always bad to end up on your back in a street fight no?) I'm learning bjj for self defense, not for sport, but my academy focuses on both

@gitman3486

6 жыл бұрын

Fontus Home Cross train Mauy Thai so you get used to standup and clinch

I train bjj but love wrestling. To me, its all grappling. I dont care if its bjj, sambo, wrestling, judo, if it works, i like it.

Doesn't matter. With your background, you're a very dangerous Man. Cheers.🤠

Training without gi boosted my confidence significantly. I notice that catch wrestling a predecessor of BJJ is simply limited to being more offensive. One could argue that BJJ is simply a modified hybrid of Catch Wrestling and Judo. That's until one starts training and one's perspective completely changes.

I do both like you do and yes the idea that you are a wrestler doing BJJ is the right attitude. Since you will have an affinity for one or the other. Now have a lot of fun and piss the BJJ guys off by using Catch Shin lock stuff. :-)

This may sound nerdy or dumb but I train just for the art of it. The way guys like Bill the Grill, Marcelo Garcia, Rickson, Pedro Sauer. Well you gat the point. Just do it for the love of it and how crafty it is how one move contradicts the orther. How we all know similar moves but from who we learned from and our personalities come into play. It's the only martial art you can do your way and people compliment your game or help you build the game of your choice. Be it catch jiujitsu submission wrestling it's all beautiful. Thank god im healthy enough to still hit the mat. Thought I would share that more people need to leave the fact of yes you can choke and give some one a real fucked up day. Leave that shit go train for the technological and crafty slick ways to manipulate your training partner. Fellas your training partner is that "DONT KILL HIM!!!!"" Be cool flow chill enjoy the roll you will have way more fun. Took along time to build this up thank god I did

Very interesting

Both are great arts and they borrow techniques from each other. Cross training is always a good idea. Alot of people train BJJ and wrestling or BJJ and judo this helps improve BJJ's biggest weakness, ( the takedown ).

Catch is not limited to pinning. It normally was decided on the spot and so sometimes matches were submissions only. But yeah, if you practice winning by limiting yourself to pinning, it can be a bad thing. As for getting quality sparring in, why not roll with freestyle wrestlers. Go ask if you can join in a local college, or go to a high school wrestling club if you have to.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

There is no high school or college wrestling in the UK. And whilst I understand the US "Carny" style of Catch may have had more focus on submissions, historically in Lacashire Catch submissions played a much smaller part, and tended to be used to achieve the pin. That being said, my only real point was that my instincts are not to keep looking for a sub once I've already achieved a pin. It wont last, but it's interesting to note right now.

@boxerfencer

7 жыл бұрын

EnglishMartialArts Yeah, I'm in a similar situation. Although there is university Roman Greco and freestyle wrestling where I live it's out of my way and they have a cap on student numbers. Lately I've resorted to allowing a space and time in my boxing classes for students and other instructors to share self-defense, while I bring in some catch that we try to replicate, and refine, essentially hacking or reverse engineering it. I went to a Judo class last weekend and hated it. I wasn't allowed to wear my wrestling shoes, and forced to put on a sweaty gi. I was put in with a fat blue belt and told to not grab legs, use my boxing/wrestling stance, or use my simple wrist manipulation techniques to free myself from their gi grabs on account of them being afraid of getting hurt. I was also told I was too stiff; I felt like telling the guy, "What you perceive as stiffness is strength. Just because you find it hard to topple me, doesn't mean I need to be more flexible". I was also told I should drag my feet, and well and boxer and wrestler knows NOT to do that. What's more they would stand tall while being inside, which is begging to be suplexed.

Someone asked Judo Gene LeBell who is an expert in Catch Wrestling what is the difference between what he does and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He said there was no difference just that he has less rules.

I train bjj. I think it would be great if we all learn from eachother and evolve the sport. Everyone can learn from someone

arent those pesky grips annoying in bjj?

Gracie Barra! Yeah! Cheers mate!

Was there ever a "Catch Wrestling Challenge" like the Gracie Challenge?

@EnglishMartialArts

7 ай бұрын

Not formally, but Billy travelled the world searching out other wrestlers to fight them. Kinda like the Gracie challenge in reverse.

There's no problem with not wanting to be on bottom, or flat on your back. As long as you don't roll on to you knees giving up the back all the time. 13y of freestyle and collegiate wrestling only helped me in bjj, as soon as learned no to feed people my arms, or give up my back I was golden, I got my blue belt in just three minths, I've it took 2 years after that to get in purple belt.

Catch is trying to expand and theyre recruiting bjj into that process. Barnett is a perfect example of a guy who got a black belt in bjj and brought that with him into Catch. There are many other lesser names doing this as well. Tbh, if i was more advanced in bjj id look into the Snake Pit coaching curriculum and open an affiliate gym myself.

It's so hard to find catch wrestling in the UK, I've looked a few times to supplement my BJJ and come up short.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Amar Tailor A few of us have come together under the banner of "United Catch Wrestling" and are organising regular sessions across the country coached by Chris Crossan. The next one is in London at the start of December. Let me know if you are interested.

@amartailor8350

7 жыл бұрын

I am very interested. Whether I can make it is another matter haha. I shall google 'United Catch Wrestling' now.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Amar Tailor Most of the conversations take place on Facebook, if you join the group United Catch Wrestling you'll get more details.

Where are you based ?

Where can you find CACC in the UK?

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Whereabouts are you? There are a few good coaches scattered around.

@warlordzephyr

7 жыл бұрын

I am based in Hampshire currently, looking at moving to Cambridge in a year or so.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

I'm probably the only person in or around Hampshire doing Catch, and I'm so far east I'm almost in Sussex. If I want to find other Catch people I end up in London. I'll have a think and see if anyone else springs to mind.

@warlordzephyr

7 жыл бұрын

EnglishMartialArts Alright, thanks. I'd be up for traveling to visit a catch place briefly. I'm based in north east hampshire

I train in normal ju jitsu but just recently we have been dabbling in bjj seen as the bloke who runs our club has started doing it, but the problem is I just seem to lose a lot mainly because most people are at least 2 stone heavier than me and when I see the bjj blokes there almost 3 times the size of me which puts me off doing it.

@DeShark88

7 жыл бұрын

kate mccready Try not to let that put you off too much. As long as you don't end up injured, you'll learn a lot more by "losing". It's hard on the ego, sure, but you've not got anything to prove really if you're new to a sport.

@katemccready68

7 жыл бұрын

DeShark88 I find most of my power comes from my back witch is a bit week from a back injury a year or 2 ago and I'm always worried about damaging again. I don't mind losing but we've been at it for 3 years now and I can't see an improvement at all not even beeing able to hold out longer yet with the traditional ju jitsu and my longsword even if I lose I can see where I can improve and I don't lose as badly next time but with the bjj I see no way a can improve without putting on a stone or two

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Hi Kate, Grappling against someone significantly heavier than you is really tough, especially when they aren't making allowances for that. I've recently lost 3 stone myself and have found it made a massive difference to what I was doing. All of a sudden I was failing to do what I'd always managed to do and I had to be more technical and more mobile. I'd strongly advise finding someone either who is small themselves to learn from, or someone who is experienced enough to understand how body type affects ability. One of the joys of training under Wade Schalles is that he instictively adapts techniques to the people he is teaching.

seriously, the video started and my first thought was "WTF is he doing in my house?!?!" Showed it to my wife and she was the same. We had a laugh 😁

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Lol, I can promise that is my house. My wife and I met through a mutual love of fantasy and sci-fi books.

Has Catch Wrestling really been around for 'centuries' ( 0:51) ? According to the Wikipedia article on Catch Wrestling, it was developed around 1870 by someone called J G Chambers, as an amalgamation of various traditional English wrestling styles. It seems to be closest to the Lancashire tradition, which was notoriously rough, but beyond that I'm not sure much is known about it.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

You could argue pretty convincingly that it hasnt even been around for 20 years, that it effectively died out and that what we have now is a modern recreation. All the "old timers" that are the source of modern catch turned to other things for many years if nor decades before starting to look at it again. That being said if we accept modern catch is indeed old Catch as Catch Can then the majority of the art is Lancashire Wrestling with adaptations coming from other systems over time. So whatever we call it the art has been being taught in one form or another for centuries, even if what was being done 200 years ago didn't look much like what is being done now. I'd say the same is true for pretty much every fighting system that is actually used. Modern Boxing from Classical Pugilism is a prime example.

@Sifuben

7 жыл бұрын

DavidB5501 that Wikipedia pages history appears to be very dubious as it claims he amalgamated Lancashire, Cumberland and Cornish wrestling. Cumberland wrestling is a form of back hold wrestling with no groundwork and Cornish wrestling is jacketed.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

The whole origin of catch thing is mired in politics, I'd rather just train than argue about whose irrelevant lineage is the bestest in the world ever.

@DavidB5501

7 жыл бұрын

The other problem, which I hesitate to mention, is that catch seems from the outset (if we take that as the 1870s) to have been tainted by 'showbiz' - fixed results, cooperative moves, and so on. I don't think any form of 'professional wrestling' has been above suspicion.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Don't hesitate to mention it, it's a genuine concern. One of the reasons Wrestling isn;t popular over here is almost certainly because by the time wrestling was taken off the TV in the 80s (did it last until the early 90s? I can't remember) it had become a shadow of it;s former self. More of a soap opera than a sport with little authenticity to show for itself. The sad thing is some of the best pro-wrestlers from that era were perfectly able to wrestle for real, but it didn't pay the bills, so they didn't. The success of the WWE doesn;t help matters either. That what they do is called wrestling too is not helpful to us, and that Catch as Catch Can s the origin of both Olympic wrestling, and also Pro Wrestling muddies the waters a lot. That we have people like Josh Barnett who show that Grappling, MMA, and Pro Wrestling are all in fact just different aspects of the same thing is hugely beneficial to us, but he's one man, and it's a long journey.

Get to a No-Gi class and see how you get on and let us know!

60 year old white belt at a Gracie school, been going 3-4 times a week for 11 months. I find catch wrestling fascinating. I am only interested in self defense and how to win in a street fight, not sport BJJ….so catch wrestling is appealing but where here in the states every decent size city has 2 or 3 BJJ schools but nowhere is there catch wrestling….too bad.

@EnglishMartialArts

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's hard to find that's for sure.

I love bjj but training catch opens my eyes up

Saw this video posted to the bjj subreddit. Good stuff. Any fantasy series you could recommend :p.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Assuming you're serious have you read the "Acts of Caine" series by Matt Stover? It's pretty good.

@lyon_17

7 жыл бұрын

EnglishMartialArts Dead serious, and I appreciate the response. I'll check it out.

can you do a video series on catch wrestling?

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

What sort of thing would you want to see?

@Schoolhousefilms121

7 жыл бұрын

I would like to see some videos about basic techniques and how they work, a brief history of Catch As Catch Can, and maybe some videos on famous wrestlers. I want to know more about it because I am interested on learning it however I don't know anyone who knows it near me so I would love to learn about it more. if you can do that then that would be fantastic, if not then I totally understand.

As soon as you said the gi is really different, I thought: "you got choked out didn't you" :) Focus on learning choke defenses, guard passing, defense in the guard, and guard prevention and you'll be hard to beat for your length of training time. Your footlocks and toeholds should be a game changer but be careful with them, most won't know how to defend properly and won't tap fast enough. Position before submission adds a lot to the game, makes submissions easier and safer, but don't stop snatching things when they're really there. Oh, and while I believe everyone should know how to fight and grapple from the guard, the instinct to put their backs to the ground will get your opponents in trouble, both with you (when you can break and pass) and in self-defense. Gracie University would be a great supplement to your game and allow you to focus on the defenses you need, many of which aren't taught elsewhere. It's neat to see this from the other perspective, I just got through reading Farmer Burn's correspondence course and comparing it to BJJ.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

It's an interesting learning experience that's for sure. And yes I got choked. I can live with that. I try very hard to keep my ego under control and simply spend time doing what I've been taught - win or lose - and put aside the bits of myself that want to win no matter what, and that think I know better.

that is an impressive library

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

If there is no Catch Wrestling clubs, then go to another grappling club. Similar to if there are no tournaments to compete in for Catch Wrestling, then compete in another grappling tournament. Cross train, and cross compete. All of the arts compliment each other, and fill all the holes in.

I think the instincts you developed in catch will serve you better in a real fight, but let’s hope and pray you never have to find out.

Try to improve your audio quality cause it's hard to watch your videos.

A video about grappling without any grappling.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

I thought the title might have suggested exactly that...

give judo a go.. bjj has got next to no uchi komi skills.. fantastic on the newaza but the standing game is slack

whats in a name?

i personally feel like if you are catch lineage, and you clearly have a considerable lineage, you should try to maintain the catch as you have recieved it and try not to become a jiujutsu player, but instead be a well versed wrestler.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

To a point I agree, but Billy Robinson used to train with, and compete against everyone he could regardless of lineage. It didn't make him any less a wrestler.

@Cyclonus5

7 жыл бұрын

EnglishMartialArts of course, but training with Judoka and training Judo are two different things. I can name points where my Catch has improved from Judo, like Kuzushi theory and Goshi waza, and other areas where it's hurt my Catch, like standing up too high that I expose myself to double legs and becoming so used to the Judo standard Collar elbow position that I forget about baseball ties. of course there is vice versa, but if you practice bjj, Judo. sambo, etc, you have the risk of losing what undiluted Catch really looks like. I'm of course not saying to not cross train, but always make sure you keep what has been imparted to you: you've been given a lineage that deserves to be preserved and I think that's something special.

You aught to make video of you doing some of the training

I like this video a lot , especially the honesty. I am sad though in a way because I wish that there were more European martial arts ( as well as African, Indian and Arts of the Americas) more wide spread and able to learn. Please do not let Catch Wrestling ( as well as Cornish Wrestling, Lancashire Wrestling, Gouren, Karakucak Gures, Chidaoba , Kushti , Koshti Pahlavani , Kokowa and a myriad of other grappling arts) go the way of so many extinct or barely relevant arts. When Judo arrived on the worldwide stage it gobbled up a lot of people and tricks from other national folk arts. Start your own group and preserve your folk art without it going the way of globalization. Nothing against crosstraining or filling in the holes of your art. Just don't abandon your national folk art.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

The last 20 years of my martial arts training have been about tryng to revive or preserve the arts from my home country. It's nice to hear I'm not alone in thinking that is important... :)

@razorslice99

7 жыл бұрын

Yes I got my wake up call in 2007 about martial arts ( I have not been able to settle in an art as of yet but it will be my New Years Resolution A MUST) twice in the same year. I used to practice Naginata and went to a Japan Fest and witnessed how visiting Japanese looked shocked and even embarrassed to see Westerners trying to act more Japanese then they were. The second time I was asking a fellow soldier friend of mine about Taekwondo ( I am an ex soldier) and his reply was why do you want to know so much about my culture. Up until that point I had seen martial arts as simply a sport or a way to learn a self defense art. Now I am definitely in search of a practical art for my age ( we want longevity so full contact sports may not do but grappling and weapons arts are ideal) that is also in similar to my culture and prepares me more dangers that would occur in my geography. I dabble in BJJ but I favor the standing throwing arts as it fits my nature better and there are some fine folk arts in other parts of the world outside of Asia. BJJ in my opinion is going the way of traditional karate and taekwondo. When they came here it was all about fighting now its sports and social clubs. No one wants to do Catch Wrestling because it hurts like a son of a ... gun. I still want to learn it though.

@jacobharris954

2 жыл бұрын

@@EnglishMartialArts my I ask are you london based by any chance

@EnglishMartialArts

2 жыл бұрын

@@jacobharris954 No, about an hour South West of London. Between Guildford and Portsmouth.

Umm... Thumbnail?

Gi and no gi are world a part. I trained predominantly in gi, and the few times we tried no gi, I felt like I lost half the handholds.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

I can see that. If you're trying to apply the offence of Gi to No-Gi then you're going to struggle. But if you're going to take gi defence into no-gi I can't se it doing anything but help. Time will tell though.

@kokofan50

7 жыл бұрын

EnglishMartialArts Yes, it's an advantage not having so many places your opponent to trap you by in no-gi, but there are also things like no being able to grab your gi collar to stop your opponent from getting you into an arm-bar.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

There's no point in pretending they're the same thing, I get that. But any grappling is better than no grappling.

Apparently catch guys don't like to be on their back causd thats the guy who gets tired from carrying weight. This guy is sports style.

I think it depends on your goals, if you want to compete you might want to be in BJJ but for self defense I think Catch Wrestling is better, especially Tony Cechinne's system but I also think that the jacket choking in BJJ and in some schools of Judo is very useful in self - defense , I'm a practioner of Pankration and have a background in traditional Asian Martial Arts and Jeet kune Do and have Incorporated old school European​ bare knuckle boxing techniques​ into my system and am studying Medieval Sword fighting as well .

It is worth noting that Japanese Jujitsu was developed for fighting on battle field an armored oponent wearing full armor, hence I would suspect, the very stiff gee. Perhaps if you imagine fighting in full armor, and half swording could give you different perspective and put you in entirely different mind set.

@maciekbojarski3624

7 жыл бұрын

Sener Zen according to the essay from shinyokai.com/Essays_Whatisjujutsu.htm "Methods of jujutsu frequently included the extensive use of joint locking, throwing, PINNING and strangling intended to be performed either armed or unarmed. Defensive tactics included blocking, evading, off balancing, blending and escaping" Pinning would imply wrestling style of fighting. As for the gee thickness the obvious is the utilitarian use but the word 'gi'

@maciekbojarski3624

7 жыл бұрын

"The word “gi” derives from “keikogi” which means training gear. Keiko signifies “practice” in Japanese, while gi means “dress” or “clothes” (similar to the “ki” in kimono). This is a budō term in which the word “keiko”can also be replaced by the word “do” meaning path, road or way. Dogi is a very common in Japan, used to explain your training clothing." www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-culture/why-do-we-call-the-bjj-uniform-a-gi-and-not-a-kimono also: " As you practice Jiu-Jitsu, you will find it useful as both an offensive and defensive tool. You will also realize its value as a common uniform to promote safe and technical practice of Jiu-jitsu." gdjiujitsu.com/programs/why-train-with-the-gi/. I believe that il light of historical reenactment and reaserch my comment stands.

@mongolchiuud8931

7 жыл бұрын

As someone who practises Japanese Jujutsu(Sekiguchi and Shinyo ryu) I can tell you there is NO ground fighting as we know it in Japanese Jujutsu. What we know as ground grappling today comes from Mataemon Tanabe in the 1890s as a new counter to Judo's tachiwaza. Thats why if you look on youtube you'll find NO ground grappling in ANY JAPANESE JUJUTSU school. fact

is Tony cecchine a fraud? haven't heard much about him in years but likes his videos.

@EnglishMartialArts

7 жыл бұрын

I've never met or trained with him so I really couldn't say. I try to be of the opinion that I can learn from anyone and everyone and some of his instructional vids look pretty good, so possibly not.

You could just focus on No-Gi. No-Gi advanced or brown/black belt divisions allow pretty much all of techniques so your catch moves wouldn’t be limited. In gyms, theoretically “self defense” oriented schools should allow catch techniques so you could learn to blend stuff better in to one style. Competition focused schools or otherwise dogmatic schools will say a lot of techniques are off limits for lower levels. If you went out and pieced up a black belt at a local no gi tournament it would get a lot of attention and make for a good KZread video. Cheers!

He's sports style catch wrestling.