Apply for the next cohort of my Fantasy Outlining Bootcamp: jedherne.com/outline

Counterpoint to Beating the Antagonist early: You could set it up so that the Antagonist is incredibly sore and bitter over their defeat, and this motivates them to go on their own villainous underdog journey and become a legit threat when they encounter the protagonist again. Case in point: The Spot from Across the Spiderverse

@michaelramon2411

8 ай бұрын

I actually have a story where the protagonist repeatedly defeats an antagonist in often humiliating ways, so the antagonist keeps running off to get even more dark magic power and generally making things worse. This works because a) there are other serious threat antagonists who don't lose as easily or often and b) this dynamic is actually a moral failing on the part of the protagonist. If she was less cruel in her repeated victories, the antagonist wouldn't keep doing worse things to try and get back at her and making problems for everyone. I think this dynamic works best if the protagonist is physically victorious but still "fails" in some other sense, so they still need to learn and grow.

@yuelia9937

8 ай бұрын

@@michaelramon2411 hahaha that's so interesting!

@AzraelThanatos

8 ай бұрын

Or just setting things up to have them be a threat in a different way. For example, starting with something like a fencing match where the main character wins, well, the villain has a grudge and, well, outside of school, your antagonist might have a lot of other power and be a petty asshole for it. Hell, that's the entire setup for the rivalry between Victor Von Doom and Reed Richards...Richards proved to be better at something and Doom fucked up, and Doom is petty as fuck.

@Merione

8 ай бұрын

​@@AzraelThanatosYes, I love that kind of story. Another example could be Harry Potter and Voldemort. Harry defeated him while he was still a baby. Of course Voldemort would want revenge years later 😂 The main difference, though, is that in both cases (HP and FF) these early victories of the good guy are presented as flashbacks in relation to the main story. We learn about them pretty early, but we still don't see them happening during the main course of the story, so it still has a kind of mystery around it. Did it really go down that way? Maybe the rumors about that story are false and the protagonist didn't really win? Or of they did, was it a fair victory? So many questions that can be explored later on as you learn more about that event

@enkiduthewildman

8 ай бұрын

Ok then, addendum to the point: don't give the antagonist a more interesting story than the protagonist. If the villain is having cool adventures and learning new skills offscreen then the reader might want to see that story instead of the one you're presenting.

There’s a lot of times I don’t feel motivated to write, then I watch one of your videos and I immediately want to write again. Thank you

@Jed_Herne

8 ай бұрын

That's awesome. Get after it!

@bobbiebrownn

8 ай бұрын

Only slow down once burnout approaches

@FireCaT-

6 ай бұрын

Same lol

@celeben9463

Ай бұрын

Same! I get so many ideas suddenly. lol

It's funny how Across the spiderverse subverts the first mistake (beating your antagonist too early). Miles easily beats Spot pretty early on and dismisses him as a threat only for him to become one of the main antagonists

@jakerockznoodles

7 ай бұрын

There are actually a lot of great antagonists who are beaten by the protagonist early and come back in some way. I'm not sure I agree with his first point, I just think it is easy to pull off badly. Even without "upgrades", there are lots of ways an antagonist can drive a plot without being a physical/magical match for the hero. There is a reason that despite all the supers Superman has beaten down, Lex Luthor has remained probably his most iconic villain.

@maxmustermann-zx9yq

7 ай бұрын

you could also turn the story into a deconstruction of the heroes story by having the hero struggle to find a new goal in a fantasy world where "the chosen one" has served his purpose and isn't needed anymore, maybe even not valued anymore tbf there is almost nothing in writing that is a hard rule, all those outlines are just traps you can fall into, if you have the darksouls mindset you can always try and pull it off

@willieoelkers5568

7 ай бұрын

Part of it depends on the framing; Spot was overtly being played as a joke character at the outset, so the initial vibe was “okay, whacky opener villain dealt with, let’s get into the main plot”. I think it’s more a matter of not overtly saying “yeah, the protagonist can totally resolve the main conflict” right at the start.

@UrLeingod

7 ай бұрын

@@willieoelkers5568 I think you nailed it. Spiderverse gets around this problem by NOT portraying the Spot as the main antagonist early on, but as a quick, light-hearted one-off villain; a warm-up boss, at most. When he comes back as the main antagonist, it's a shocking twist, which means no one's going through all the stuff in-between going, "Why do I care? I already know the protagonist can win this fight," which was the whole issue with having your protagonist beat the main antagonist too early, that it's hard to build tension throughout the story towards a fight you've already seen the protagonist win.

@mattiOTX

7 ай бұрын

They subvert the idea which is nice because you and the hero dismiss them as a threat.

Good reference on active vs. passive protagonists. Bilbo Baggins started very passive and grew out of it.

@schwarzerritter5724

8 ай бұрын

You can make the argument Gandalf is the protagonist at first and then Bilbo takes over.

@rcschmidt668

8 ай бұрын

@@schwarzerritter5724 Perhaps co-protagonists along with the dwarves?

@schwarzerritter5724

8 ай бұрын

@@rcschmidt668 Maybe Torin, but the other dwars don't have a personality outside of their funny names.

@stephenolan5539

7 ай бұрын

Keanu Reeves made a tech noir movie called Johhny Mnemonic. Remember it? Probably not. He also another tech noir movie you probably have heard of, The Matrix. I read an opinion piece that suggested one reason why The Matrix was so much better is because the protagonist went through a metamorphosis. He started as an everyman.

@AliceRinGameLand

7 ай бұрын

You can have more than one protagonists

I was going into this thinking he was going to say "Dragons should not be put in a story, they take away tension/stakes etc.". Meanwhile I was sitting here with an unfinished (of course) story about wealth hoarding dragons, sweating bullets, waiting for that point to come up. I was pleasantly surprised.

@Greenicegod

8 ай бұрын

I was thinking about a specific scene in Fate of the Fallen by Kel Kade... The perspective cuts back to the main character when he's attacked out of no where by a dragon. He almost dies in the attack, which only lasts like a page. It was very jarring on my first read, I thought I was missing some pages. Turns out the gods were meddling (in both the world and the story), and sent the dragon to "challenge" the protagonist, because beating a powerful beast makes you more powerful. They just totally underestimated how powerful the dragon was compared to the protagonist.

@Jed_Herne

8 ай бұрын

I've got dragons in my next novel (Kingdom of Dragons), so I've certainly got nothing against them myself!

@onidaaitsubasa4177

7 ай бұрын

I would think dragons would raise the tension and the stakes, after all, if you have a party of characters traveling through a dungeon or some caverns, and then they hear loud breathing, and then notice that they are walking right through a dragon's den and it's sleeping, and the slightest noise might wake it up, the tension just went up a lot, and the stakes just went up to include their very lives, remember, just cause a dragon is in your story, it's not always gonna be on the side of your protagonists.

@birdjericho

7 ай бұрын

The good news is that the stakes (to make the metaphor literal) depend less of their "height" and more on their placement to each other. Think in terms of tent stakes: tension between stakes is good, but too little tension makes the tent fall over while too much tension will "snap" the reader into incredulity. You can absolutely start with dragons, so long as the next step is beholders and Vecna, and not, I don't know, natives from a fishing village. The reason most sci-fi narratives begin to "fail" after introducing the multiverse is because... what else is further than every possible iteration of everything? Now **that** is a stake I would hesitate to plop down without also sticking down some very serious "consequence stakes" near that concept. 😁

@LoudWaffle

2 ай бұрын

Like many other aesthetic tropes of fantasy, dragons are fine, and can even be great! They only become writing problems when they're just thrown in with barely any thought "because it's a fantasy story."

An alternative for beating the antagonist early, it could be beating the 5th in the chain of command, and then being crushed by the 3rd later.

@QuikVidGuy

7 ай бұрын

Ive seen a lot of kods shows do this, where someone seems like the big bad until near the end of the first major arc, and then theyre taken down and the REAL big bad gets closer to the foreground

@zidaryn

7 ай бұрын

​@@QuikVidGuyThat works. But you have to be careful of falling into "oh, there's another greater bad" again and again. I've seen that happen in some JRPGs and it just feels like "oh, ok so I gotta fight you now. Next!" And I'm not as interested in the antagonists anymore. Ex: FF 9. Love the game and story, but by the end I'm losing interest in who the big bad is.

@onidaaitsubasa4177

7 ай бұрын

Another good thing is to have the antagonist lose on purpose to achieve some kind of goal, or to get near something they are after.

@masscreationbroadcasts

7 ай бұрын

@@onidaaitsubasa4177 Oh, interesting. Have any examples of that?

@Houtblokje

7 ай бұрын

@@QuikVidGuy Tbh, I feel like this only works if the other character has been introduced before. Else it just feels like "Well you defeated that guy, now defeat this faceless even stronger dude"

Hey, I made almost all of these mistakes in my first drafts! Pretty shocking that fixing them made my story way better.

ON "beating an enemy too early," bingo! In pro-wrestling, promotions used to be structured to introduce both heroes and villains going through a number of jobbers, guys who lose every week on TV. This establishes the character and abilities of both opponents. Then there are the set-up feuds, where they each face a much bigger threat, and we see how they deal with that. And then finally they face each other.

@hellacoorinna9995

7 ай бұрын

Face and Heels

@rya1701

7 ай бұрын

tournament brackets are usually structured so that the strongest competitors wont face off until the final

Your first is really good I'm surprised you didn't mention The Force Awakens with how Rey beat Kylo Ren in their first meeting weakening him as a villain

@Perroden

8 ай бұрын

Kylo is such a joke just like the movie.

@barnabusdoyle4930

7 ай бұрын

The proper way to have addressed Kylo getting beaten in Force Awakens would have been to have Snoke do a long volley of very harsh training on Kylo in the next movie. Almost like a training montage from a Kickboxer movie, then have Kylo go back and crush her at the end of the movie. Give Kylo the training and get better to defeat your opponent since they had no idea what to do with Jake Skywalker and Rey Palpatine.

@Perroden

7 ай бұрын

@@barnabusdoyle4930 he should have never been defeated. It makes less than zero sense.

@Zong_Cheng

7 ай бұрын

@@barnabusdoyle4930Kylo taking the L to Rey makes sense if the watcher understands SW lore or is vaguely familiar with it. Kylo being conflicted from killing Han = Kylo’s connection to the Force is very weak = he is very weak. The issue is that most people don’t understand that at all or how emotions affect your strength in the Force. It’s why TLJ had to have Snoke literally explain why he lost to Rey at the start of the movie because everyone was getting pissy about it. What is actually a problem was his “fight” with Luke. Obviously they couldn’t make Luke look bad when the scene is supposed to be about him becoming the same war hero we grew up with once more but at the same time, there isn’t a single explanation or reason to excuse Kylo getting utterly embarrassed. Sure, everyone including Kylo thinks this could be legit cuz they have Luke on a pedestal but it only serves to hurt Kylo’s image nigh irreparably in the viewer’s eye.

@kamikeserpentail3778

7 ай бұрын

@@Zong_Cheng The whole new trilogy is just bad. Instead of building up on things, there was conflict between the director's visions. Personally, I think JJ Abrams just sucks as a director, and I'm not going to say Rian Johnson is great either.

00:28 🛡️ Be cautious about introducing and defeating the antagonist too early; it can diminish suspense and character growth. 02:17 📋 Vary scene formats to keep reader engagement and maintain conflict progression. 04:06 🏃‍♂️ Ensure your protagonist makes active choices; passive protagonists can stall the plot's momentum. 05:30 🗝️ Establish a clear through line, defining the core conflict to avoid meandering and purposeless subplots. 08:18 🐌 Avoid a "soggy middle" by maintaining progression and purpose; consider a seven-point plot structure for better guidance. 14:08 ⚔️ Challenge characters with adversity to reveal their true depth and create reader connection. 15:06 🔄 Align the promise, progress, and payoff to maintain a natural flow in your narrative. 16:01 🪢 Condense the resolution of plot threads to create a more impactful and dynamic climax. 17:39 🎲 Avoid relying on luck to save the protagonist; instead, use it to create challenges and obstacles for them.

@xitaris5981

3 ай бұрын

Were these not built into the progression bar when you watched it? It shows you where you can click to get to a specific segment

@dameanvil

3 ай бұрын

@@xitaris5981 Fascinating. What is your point?

@xitaris5981

3 ай бұрын

@@dameanvil no point. I was gathering information so that I could 1) understand if the built in time stamps existed when the video was first posted, and 2) understand if you had another motivation for putting in the effort outlining the video with time stamps. It's a helpful and kind thing to do and I even done it myself a few times, but only in videos without the feature, so I wanted to gain insight into a new perspective. Or let you know about the feature in case you hadn't noticed it to save you some effort if you didn't have another reason for doing it.

@dameanvil

3 ай бұрын

@@xitaris5981 yea. some people don't want or simply can't follow a video. and they can use the text anchors.

@aniisammy

11 күн бұрын

Thank you! My focus was way too scattered to watch the video rn but I was really curious about the concise points lol

Everytime I feel like I'm writing my book wrong, one of your videos pop up and reminds me to just keep doing what I'm doing. Thanks for all the advice you provide on this channel, they're a tremendous help!

@simi5558

7 ай бұрын

Same apperntly im not as crap as i thought i was

@sycariummoonshine7134

3 ай бұрын

Hell yeah!

In terms of story structure, I like to use an arc structure. Basically, several interwoven subplots each contributing to the themes and larger story, but each had its own unique side characters and arcs and such. I find it keeps constant engagement

@patriot9487

7 ай бұрын

I like to do this too

@royalbluegaming7763

7 ай бұрын

I love this type of story

@TacoLoverPerson

3 ай бұрын

Aye, I do this as well and combine it into a 5 act story structure. Each act having it's own arc that further explores the larger themes of a story is not only more engaging in my opinion, but easier to write as well

@kylienielsen6975

2 ай бұрын

Yah when there just one plot it gets tiring and boring.

@brandynkoogler4500

8 күн бұрын

Love this type

If I had to summarize act 2, I would say: Make the third act as great as possible (raise the stakes). When writing Act 2, you can significantly heighten the emotions and tension for Act 3. I think the reason why there are so few detailes about the middle part in this storystructure, is because it really depends on all the other stuff in your novel. Act 2 is very subjective which is probably why beginners really tend to struggle with this. But I have heard many writers say that as they started to dive really deep into act 2, the middle actually became their most favorite part of the process. Great Video!

@serox8887

8 ай бұрын

absolutely agree

@marsultor762

8 ай бұрын

I feel like the second act is my favorite for this exact reason! The tension ratchets way up, and you get to work in clever little things that have major payofs in the third act.

@lonelytask

8 ай бұрын

exactly! Making all those setups and watching them revolve in act 3 is one of my favourite things in all of writing@@marsultor762

@thelionsshare6668

8 ай бұрын

The most low-resolution cave-man version of story-telling these days is a pro-wrestling match. The classic match had four segments: the Set-up (establishing characters, their relationship to each other, the rules, the audience, etc, the wrestlers are testing each other); the Shine (the good guy ascendant, with whatever virtues he has; bad guy can't win); the Heat (begins with the bad guy doing something nefarious, then he starts making the hero suffer); the Finish (the good guy makes a comeback, leading to desperation on the parts of both wrestlers).

@Lilitha11

8 ай бұрын

Honestly, I just think the 3 act structure isn't very good.

Mistake 1 reminds me of why I was unimpressed when Moff Gideon came back in The Mandalorian season 3. Moff Gideon got spanked in season 1 and in season 2, so obviously he would lose again in season 3 no matter how many upgrades they give him.

@georgevelis4651

8 ай бұрын

Mandalorian season 3 also was, for some reason, categorically against letting the main characters face any consequences for their actions

@toad_of_the_sky

7 ай бұрын

It's a real shame too because Moff Gideon could have been a really good villain.

@Katya_Lastochka

7 ай бұрын

Disney writers cant create compelling villains, so they bring back old ones and neuter them.

@Aldragon

7 ай бұрын

It’s because they kept making Gideon put them in scenarios where escape was impossible so they had to defeat him or die. I love mandalorian but this was definitely a weak point. There are many ways to have the main characters not die but also not win in a major conflict like they always wanted to have at the end of the season, but they never found a good way to do that.

@Phalvesaurus

7 ай бұрын

I would have been fine with the idea of Moff Gideon being spanked by Luke Skywalker before season 3, but not by Mando. That way Mando's victory in s3 feels more satisfying - because of course Luke would kick his ass.

17:16 an author who does the "tie together plot treads" very well is Charles Dickens. He makes you wait for it, but his last chapter or two is always worth it.

Summary for "my people": 1) Start with your protagonist about to get executed, then have your antagonist land on a nearby tower and destroy the city as Protag escapes through Helgen Keep. 2) A scene format is like a quest. You wouldn't write a dozen quests that are all "kill 5 of these things" or "bring me 5 doodads," would you? 3) Protag needs to tell the world it can wait while he or she does a side quest. 4) If you want the bulk of your story to be about reclaiming and rebuilding the wasteland, maybe don't start with a plot that requires Protag to immediately rush to find his or her son, only to ignore that in the first chapter, and for the next four chapters. 5) No water levels. 6) If you want a danger to seem actually dangerous, you're going to have to require corpse runs. 7) Don't overhype and overpromise. If Protag cannot be a space trucker flying between galaxies, don't set that up before you get into the story. 8) If Protag leaves the story to go to Africa, that's your climactic ending. Don't try to replace him with Randy just to milk the story until it's hated. 9) Minor supporting characters should not have the power to know where Protag is when facing certain doom, have the power to heal Protag, and just happen to know how to get and deliver the two artifacts that allow Protag to kill the Basilisk.

@fredericororiz6500

7 ай бұрын

My dude... are you ok?

@BillWiltfong

7 ай бұрын

@@fredericororiz6500 C'mere, bro. Get in close, this is between me and you. *This was just a little writing exercise I gave myself.*

@annatardlordofderps9181

7 ай бұрын

Or; Don't have your antagonist through most of the game be a "muh-ha-ha" bad guy trying to kill you for power. Only to try to reveal he needed that power to prepare for an even worse villian, just to have _that_ villain be a total pushover that gets defeated in a single fight. *cough* Fable 3 *cough*

@BillWiltfong

7 ай бұрын

@@annatardlordofderps9181 Do you think I should have done something like a *cough* **reference** *cough* throughout my post? I thought about it. I also thought maybe tying my numbered items back to a timestamp so Reader could see how they relate might have been a good idea.

@dragonfloof5484

6 ай бұрын

Hi. Yes. This is brilliant. Thank you. Bye.

@9:30 Suzanne Collins had a different solution to the soggy middle in The Hunger Games. Beyond the fact there are 3 books, each book roughly subdivides into 3 sections of 9 chapters each. But those sections in turn split roughly into 3 short stories, causing a pattern of each chapter being an act.

It’s really funny how many big budget Hollywood movies make all of these mistakes constantly

@J.P.Robles

7 ай бұрын

Hollywood movies have been about checking boxes in terms of genre

Stranger Things 4 is an example of #1. The monsters being created by the first psychic child is an interesting twist, but Eleven beat him when she was like 7! It makes it hard to believe she's ever in danger.

@TheVeyZ

Ай бұрын

I was personally disappointed that the monster in the ther world was another psychic human. I thought it would've been more interesting for it just to have been an eldritch monster.

@raikkel9516

Ай бұрын

​@@TheVeyZagreed. If i remember correctly, they even make it seem like the eldritch monster is subservient to him too which is sooooooooo lameeeeeee

1:45 I’ve heard a story once about a very powerful antagonist called Sauron who suffered a huge defeat. He came back weaker but the author chose to make the protagonist unable to beat him. The main plot line in Tolkien’s universe is literally the idea that for defeating the antagonist, free people need to become less powerful. It started with Valar’s war against Melkor and ended with 3 weak hobbits sneaking into the enemy stronghold. And all the story power of the Lord of the Rings, the book version I mean, comes from the idea that, to really defeat him, confrontation with the many times beaten antagonist need to be avoided. The usual structure in fantasy stories is a protagonist slowly becoming stronger in order to finally defeat the antagonist. And yet, the greatest fantasy universe is built about the idea that all the most powerful beings (valar, high elves, edain…) renounce to use their power to let the weakest ones do the job…

@EskChan19

7 ай бұрын

Yeah but to be fair, this writing tip was mostly about having your protagonist beat the antagonist too early. Like Lord of the Rings would have been a whole lot less interesting if it had been Frodo who cut Saurons finger off and then when the Nazgul come to hunt the Hobbits, they just swiftly defeat the Nazgul without a sweat.

Your 7-point structure just gave me the biggest breakthrough, thank you! I've been struggling with not feeling like the three-act structure was working for my novel.

@Jed_Herne

8 ай бұрын

Awesome!

@elliottleguehennec8302

8 ай бұрын

I really enjoyed it too! I think I'm going to adapt it for the purposes of my story, where I have 2 protagonists that spend the first half of the book split up before teaming up to solve the big mystery.

@annatardlordofderps9181

7 ай бұрын

Or. Dont even be hampered by the 3 arc plot. It's an efficient tool but tricking yourself into becoming rigid and thinking it *must* be followed can also be a mistake. Think about the story you want to tell. The beats and themes you want to hit, and put events between the two that tie them together. Also consider the characters involved and how they would react in certain scenarios. This is an easy way to get good character exploration, tension, character development, payoffs. If you want the series to be more ongoing introducing later plot essential characters either shortly after the inciting incident or before the climax is an efficient way to do so.

Rey and Kylo from Star Wars is a perfect example of having your antagonist get stomped at every fight. There was no tension there when they would meet again at the end. When your villian is a joke, you lost the narrative.

@youtubeenigma8316

12 күн бұрын

..... *[Trap goes off.]* "AAAAH! PERRY THE PLATYPUS."

@brandynkoogler4500

8 күн бұрын

He was a bad guy, a protagonist. He's not THEE bad guy. Even the first movie that people generally speak highly of, Kylo wasn't even introduced as the big bad, not at any point in the trilogy. You, like many others, are too focused on the wrong things to make them enjoyable. Particularly when it comes to Star Wars.

Luck being used against your protagonist is far harder to overdo, but it absolutely can make your story feel stale or boring. I've seen this happen in a few TV dramas where they milk the concept of Murphy's Law into oblivion, and it can actually get very old when overused, and it looks like this: Step 1: Problem arises that needs to be solved in a certain timeframe. Step 2: characters come up with a fix to the problem. Step 3: something unlucky happens to negate their fix, forcing them to come up with something new. Step 4: Repeat steps 2 and 3 as many times as possible before the timeframe from step 1 runs out. Step 5: repeat step 2 one last time, but don't include step 3. Characters solve the problem with seconds/inches to spare. When 5 episodes of a show in a row followed this format to the letter, I started to realize that luck getting characters INTO problems isn't the only way for plot convenience to diminish the stakes of a story. Knowing the story has to go on for a certain amount of time but seeing the characters juuuuuust barely scrape by problem after problem turns all of those 'unlucky' moments into a bunch of white noise because you're really waiting for the last few seconds to see if they have any actual consequences this time.

@kirtil5177

6 ай бұрын

yeah thats when bad luck starts becoming predictable, and then it really does not feel like luck, and so you end up thinking "the first solution has never worked, just reveal the twist and get on that already". so it really feels like luck when its actually unpredictable, and that opens so many more opportunities too, for example, differing just how bad the unlucky event is and how stressful it is. an early minor fail gets you into the beat and shows off what the characters can do, while a severe worst case scenario way further down the line is not only more worse by contrast, but also feels like a proper climax, and so it actually feels like the characters are being pushed to their limits. you could also forego the unlucky mishap entirely and simply make the issue really difficult, but the eventual solution works exactly as planned and the characters feel relieved and maybe even competent

@jgkitarel

4 ай бұрын

As mentioned, it can be done well even for the protagonist, but it shouldn't be overused. If the protagonist is always scraping by due to luck, then that is plot armor, they can't fail even if they try and that gets old fast. On the other hand, if the antagonist only remains a threat because of lucky breaks, then that gets old just as fast. Like anything, moderation and knowing when and when not to use something is key. One way I liked using luck is in the way it can screw with both sides due to it being a third party doing something. It turned out to be a lucky break in the end for our protagonists due to it allowing them to properly identify, though not expose, the main antagonist early, and sped up the conclusion of it all because it forced the antagonist's hand, but they also ended up seeing some of the consequences of that third party actor's actions. And the third party actor's actions had consequences towards himself due to his acting in a way that could have potentially endangered everyone.

I'm a writer, and I am extremely scared of showing my work.

@kdavis2686

7 ай бұрын

Same here. I don't know if I will ever publish it or release my book.

@nickjohnson7277

7 ай бұрын

Make up a good Author name, and then blame Them for all the mistakes.

@joshuacunningham8558

7 ай бұрын

But I feel as if I must because I am a natural storyteller. The kind of books I write are, I will say, a bit outside the box, which, I think, may be what the creative world needs. I don't mean to sound grandiose.

@nickjohnson7277

7 ай бұрын

@@joshuacunningham8558 just do it. You have nothing to lose. Good luck

@J.P.Robles

7 ай бұрын

Show your work to your friends and family first Show it to your writing instructors too Just to see what they think and have it be like a test screening but with a book

Beating the Antagonist early is only a problem when the Antagonist themselves is the source of the threat. I know of a lot of great stories where the Antagonist isn't really personally intimidating or powerful but they work as a master mind commanding great forces and acting as a nebulous threat. This often works great for the story because not only can you have the protagonist's defeat of them be the inciting incident for the story, the thing that pushes the villain into targeting them and even into becoming a villain, but you also get a smart and petty antagonist that will often target the protagonist indirectly through weak points like friends, family, public reputation, and even the law.

@EskChan19

7 ай бұрын

Another interesting way is that the protagonist beating the antagonist can be a good setup, if your story is mainly about that being shaken up. For example: A superhero story where you show the superhero defeat the supervillain in the beginning of chapter 1. BUT THEN! The hero loses his powers. When that is the main plot of your story, the hero trying to reclaim his powers, then having the villain be defeated in chapter 1 can set the stakes. Because now the reader knows what the villain is capable of, and they know that the hero WITH his powers can save the day. But they also know that if the villain returns while the hero is still powerless, that's pretty much game over. So now the clash in the beginning actually serves to make the villain MORE intimidating because now, insteadof the story being about an escalation of power, it instead turns into a ticking clock situation.

@TGPDrunknHick

5 күн бұрын

or give the villain agency. they were beaten this time rather easily but, you've motivated them and given them info on your abilities. meanwhile to your protag the might seem like an afterthought setting up a nasty surprise. maybe the loss was entirely intentional to gauge strength or progress for some other plot. perhaps the villains goal requires the hero to reach their full potential. there are many ways to use an early defeat. you just have to follow through properly.

Writing my high fantasy novel right now, and I am learning a lot from your videos!!

Interesting about the 7-point plot structure, because my first thought was: Make Act2 it's own three part structure. I think borrowing from movie trilogies, that are good at least, works. Take Empire Strikes Back. It's a brilliantly told movie, that's also the second act of the complete story. the 7-points does this in much the same way I guess.

Another great video! A problem that I've been encountering a lot lately is dealing with that jump at act 2 and 3 between the protagonist's lowest moment and the climax. I've seen lots of very different methods on this, from do it as quick as possible to give it plenty of time to let your protagonist really take in the impact of the lowest moment. Of course, there's no right or wrong way, but there seems to be a lot of inconsistency, even in successful stories. I've yet to find anyone that has put into words how to make that jump successfully, or, at least, what the common working elements are. Most tend to talk about the lowest moment and climax in isolation, but not what comes between!

@EskChan19

7 ай бұрын

I think that depends on too many factors to really be easily said. It depends on how impactful you want this situation to be to the reader too, but also on how organic that would come of. For example: Obviously how much time the character gets to handle this should be somewhat realistic. If he sees his friends killed in the middle of a battle, he can't really spend too much time on it, since he's in the middle of a battle. If he arrives after the battle happened it can be much more impactful. But it also depends on how impactful you want it to be to the reader, as opposed to the character. For example if the lowest point is that because of a mistake your character made his family died, but each of the family members had like, two lines of dialogue in the whole book, you should probably not linger too long because the reader probably isn't invested enough in the family of the main character to really care about THEM, they will care about what it does to your character, but if the subject of the matter isn't interesting enough, it's probably not worth spending too much time on. If on the other hand this lowest point directly affects someone the readers are very connected to, for example because it caused something to happen to a major character, then there is a lot more room to explore what that means for each of them. Basically: you should look at the situation not from the perspective of your characters but of your audience. If there is no real reason for them to care, then don't spend too much time on it.

#8 is the way to write the Sanderson avalanche. Would love a whole video dedicated to that. And great video, thank you!

I have a villain who's whole thing is that they pretend to be a weak middle man in their own empire when in reality they are very strong. The villain basically tricks the main character into over looking him by letting the Main character beat him. Would this count under your "beating the antagonist too early."

@zidaryn

7 ай бұрын

I'd say that is a subversion of it. And like all tropes, be aware of it's pros and cons before you subvert it.

@TheStraightestWhitest

7 ай бұрын

No, that's a bait and switch done in-universe, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is however very difficult to pull off. But I'm confident you know what you're doing.

@valimaa1006

7 ай бұрын

In general, you should only follow rules if you don't know what to do and don't have reason to break them. If you just google basic story structure and how to improve your writing, I think you should just follow it. But if you come up wth an idea that intentionally breaks that rule, it is sort of the same as if you actually acknowledged the rule and gave it its own twist. So its not like you made the mistake, rather you made your own rules. So I guess go for it, it definetely sounds interesting.

@little_lord_tam

7 ай бұрын

You realy need to make the transition to the villain actually beeing extremly dangerous believable. If he suddenly Plays everyone without foreshadowing and a believable, well planned plot twist, it will feel cheap

@KobeAndersonCactus

7 ай бұрын

No because the whole point in the video is that if the protagonist beats the antagonist that means the protagonist is more powerful, and so when they fight again in the climax there's less tension. If it's revealed that the antagonist intentionally let the protagonist win the first time, then it doesn't apply

I've been months trying to find that one sentence that resume my story. And you make me say it confidently for the first time, even before that advice of think about the end (in that moment i just was happy because the sentence coincided with that final)

You hit the nail on the head with the issues with the 3 Act Structure. This is why I use a synthesis of the 4 Act Structure and the 7 Point structure that you mention. Act II is often the protag learning/showing off/gaining confidence and Act III becomes the antagonists showing off and destroying the protag's confidence. Too many authors get lost in the 3 Act structure. I especially see people struggle with that story square outline format that has 9 chapters for each act, because Act II ends up being too short, and Act I ends up being way too long. Thank you for bringing this issue up!

@Stratelier

7 ай бұрын

One of the flaws with the "3 act structure" isn't the structure itself, but the way people oversimplify the concept into a story containing ONLY those 3 acts, with the thresholds between each act being clearly identifiable at a glance.

I disagree with number one. The antagonist can always come back as a bigger threat later like Spot in the most recent Spiderverse movie

I'm not a writer so this idea could be absolutely terrible. But an idea that I thought of is if you're dead set on having the protagonist win the first battle, maybe set up that the protagonist wins using a method that can't be replicated. So if they're in a fantasy setting they used a magic that can only be used once because at that current time the protagonist was weaker, and make it clear that it's something that can't be done again. So if/when they have to fight again they Protagonist will have to win themselves

@emdove

4 ай бұрын

That's kind of what happened in Harry Potter, with him being saved by his mother's love as a helpless baby. Then Voldemort slowly becoming a threat again, giving Harry and the reader time to realise how dangerous he could be and to train enough to make a defeat feasible. I'd say your idea is market approved :)

@allamericanslacker2378

18 күн бұрын

@@emdove Harry didn't actually need to train to beat Voldemort. It was entirely luck and coincidence. He got the drop on Draco, resulting in the elder wand recognizing him as its master, which means that Voldemort couldn't use it to kill him. If literally any other wand had been used, Harry would have lost.

A story that actually did a great example of beating the antagonist early is across the spider verse. It achieves this by have dual antagonist working on different axis of the plot. Its definitely a more sophisticated story telling technique, but could work well when executed correctly.

Thanks man. I love writing my own story's and these changes have both improved my writing and my inspiration for new plots and adventures.

The final duel with the main villain is obviously the climax of the story, true. But you shouldn't do the opposite mistake, making the villain too strong, i know, it creates pathos, but it also forces you into a "Super Saiyan" situation, wher you hve to give a sudden and unexpected boost of power to the MC in order to make it win.

@jgkitarel

4 ай бұрын

Or, you can make your villain that powerful but he willingly doesn't use that level of power by establishing that he set rules in place that applied to everyone, even himself. He is scrupulously fair, in the sense that they have a chance, it is up to them to take it and make the best of it.

The point about respective scenes was awesome - I’m currently evaluating a manuscript using the Story Grid method, and I’ve added a column ‘type of scene’ to make sure I don’t have too many similar ones side by side. Thanks!!

In a very early story, I had a chapter called “A Meeting of Thrones” where you meet all the potential antagonists and evils that could be encountered. I loved the chapter, but never could write beyond that.

OMG I am so happy I have found your voice. Been watching 3 of your vids and I have learned so much. Truly inspirational! Thank you for beeing so generous with your knowledge!

I was always a self-taught writer when it came to fantasy, and I didn't have many of these problems, though it was really interesting to see how you point these out. Whenever I had these problems with writing when I was little and getting into writing for fun, I found myself falling into these problems and just scrapping the whole idea before going onto something fresh. I have to say, now that I've nailed all these aspects, I find myself clueless as to what my climax should be. I pride myself on character development, world development, scene-writing, making even the exposition exciting and interesting, but once I reach that climax, I don't know how it should end for the characters. I struggle between gritty, harsh reality and catharsis, and I'm pretty sure it's because of the reflection of my own world and life. Everything I build up to is a very bleak and dismal ending for these characters, and a hopeful change almost seems out of place. I feel awful if I do achieve that bad ending, and I know that's how my readers will feel, and I personally hate nihilistic worlds and stories like that (my writing tends to be just the worst luck in a world that's not hopeless, not set in a hopeless world). But on the other hand I have no context or experience on what a unique, good ending would look like. For instance, I never kill off a character that doesn't hold emotional value, but I also don't kill off too much of them, but how does the world continue on without those characters in it?

@bubblefish4597

4 ай бұрын

My favorite endings are bittersweet ones. I love when everything goes wrong and close emotional things fall apart and the protagonist loses a lot, but keeps going. It's learning how to live with loss and regret and heartbreak that I find the most satisfying. Something about light seeming brighter when surrounded by darkness. All this to say, the natural conclusion of your stories might be tragedy. But if it feels too tragic, spend time on the bits of hope and continuance. Focus on how the world goes on without those killed-off characters, because it does go on whether your protagonist wants it or not. So how do they cope? Do they find companionship in their other friends? Do they build a new life - imperfect, painful, and scarred as it is? The ending may not be pleasant, but it's worth living. There are people who'll read an everything-falls-apart story. And if you don't want to write that, there's people who will read a slightly-lighter-but-still-disaster story. I'm one of those. You have an audience. You'll find them. :) Also let me know if you ever finish a story, I want to read it.

@madeline5138

4 ай бұрын

@@bubblefish4597 Awe! Thank you for this insight, it does really help a lot with figuring out what needs to happen. I think I tend to focus on one character and they often face the story solo, so maybe if I add in more characters it won't feel so out of place when the main character still seeks out a good, fulfilling life even after a bunch of tragedy. Of course it won't be sunshine and rainbows, but it will give incentive for the protagonist to keep going. Honestly, I love fiction and fantasy because it's an escape from a cruel world, so I don't like when things are entirely hopeless. Thanks again! 😊

Jed! I have to thank you so much for your channel, but especially for this video! I had entirely no idea that the "seven point story structure" exists! I've only ever known about the three act structure and you are absolutely correct! The "soggy middle" as you called it, is and has been my greatest challenge. I am the type of writer that knows the beginning (and usually a good 2/3rds into it) of my story as well as exactly how I want it all to end and come together, but the connective tissue, finding that flow for how it gets to the end in the 3rd act, that has been such a struggle. I'm so grateful that you mentioned this other structure option and I'm really excited to explore it more!

@Jed_Herne

8 ай бұрын

Glad it was useful!

@queenb2450

7 ай бұрын

Peter Jackson made me actually love writing my middle part the most - he said that the "middle" of a trilogy or whatever is the most fun because that's where you shake it up and change things.

What a delightful challenge to break all your rules and still pull off a great story.

Hey Jed! What an awesome video! I'll definitely be using this in my story. THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

Author & teacher James Scott Bell has an excellent writing craft book: “Write Your Novel From The Middle,” which helps address the problem of the sagging middle.

Interesting video, as always. The second point is something I'm really paying close attention to because it's extremely easy to fall into that trap. Your brain, in fact, is naturally leading you toward the easy solution, which, if you're not careful, can easily make your story redundant or even awkward. The throughline thing is something I've never thought about before, but I definitely should. Thanks for pointing it out. So far, I'm at the start of my book, but I'll make sure I stay on the rails as I progress. The passive protagonist is usually not an issue for me, but one of my pov characters is very reserved and shy, which I found extremely challenging when it comes to making active. The problem when you're shy is that you're afraid to impose yourself and make decisions, which is precisely what a good story requires from you. So far, I think I'm doing "okay" with him, but it requires ten times more thinking to make his story engaging than the others, I feel. I also put a lot of work into the characters accompanying him to palliate this issue, but I can't abuse this, either. This is HIS story, not theirs.

This is great advice. Weak throughline, weak middle, etc. these all sound very common in stories I've seen too.

Wow, this was truly helpful. I'm trying to worldbuild/outline a novel for 2 years now, it's more of a side project. I'm kinda relieved I'm not committing many mistakes but the weak consequences really woke me up. I felt something was missing in the overall structure and this is definitely one of them: how hard I was willing to push the protagonist. I'm looking forward to it now, and it certainly will add a lot to the story.

I’m a reader and I now respect you guys soooo much! It’s amazing to know there’s a technology to your craft... who knew? Keep creating! I love all of you!!! ❤

I've noticed a lot of videos about issues with worldbuilding and that everyone makes a wall of text at the beginning of the book. What if you have the opposite problem? What if you fail to add any basic details about the background and get right into action. Could you make a video of how to maybe fix this issue? Also great video, keep up the good work!

@theunintelligentlydesigned4931

8 ай бұрын

What you do is you break up your exposition into smaller pieces and scatter them throughout the story, especially in chapter 2. There is a difference between exposition (world building) and wall of text (bad paragraph breaking) and you are talking about exposition. You don't want to have exposition at the very beginning but soon after the beginning, it's good to give a little exposition. Then give more exposition in chapter 2. Then some exposition in chapter 3. Etceteras. Watch Attack on Titan for a good example. It is very action packed most of the time but there are little snippets of world building here and there.

@necromancer6405

8 ай бұрын

I enjoy walls of text personally. Rarely do I see people complaining about info dumps if it's actually relevant. Usually people complain if they have to pay for something that is almost all info (if you charge chapter by chapter).

@tbotalpha8133

8 ай бұрын

@@theunintelligentlydesigned4931 I concur with this commenter, though my example would actually be Roadside Picnic - a sci-fi novel about humanity dealing with the fallout of weirdo aliens visiting Earth, and leaving a bunch of strange artifacts behind. The story drops you into its world without explaining anything. There is exposition as the story goes on, in snippets here and there. But if you pay attention, you can also gradually piece together what's going on, who the characters are, and the significance of what they're doing from context. It's a fascinating approach to exposition. And it feels utterly confident in itself, that its audience will be intrigued enough to stick with it, despite their initial confusion about what's happening.

@liamannegarner8083

8 ай бұрын

The classic trick is to have a character tie the wall of text into an emotion so it flows as a rant. You can't do that all the time, but if you have only one place to put the wall of text, that helps. My other thing is I'll try to map out exactly how little I have to explain and then see if any of those factoids could be tied together, and only put them in the same scene if they are. (For instance, when I describe Evangelion to someone, I only include the information relevant to make every joke in the "Evangelion 4kids intro" make sense. ("THIS is the story of a boy named Shinji, living in the flooded streets of New Orleans...") It immediately tells you what's important. You can do the same thing with your story climax.) And then you have things like Richard Roberts' Wild Children, where word of god is "no one actually knows how the big magic plot device works, they just have to deal with its very unpredictable consequences." That's valid too!

@rcschmidt668

8 ай бұрын

I think it would be good to remember “show, don’t tell” when thinking about exposition. A description of a field they are crossing would bring the reader more into the scene than saying a war was fought there, and they can mention something like one or two key characters that died there or the valiant sacrifice of the defenders.

Niiiiice! I like this guy. Very helpful, true, and relayed in a practical genuine way. All the best to you and greater things to come!

Love your videos, never stop doing them

Really well made point at 16:45, I've always thought this is the best resolution of a story be it a film, novel, game or any other story based work. I think a good analogy is to see the story you want to tell as a painting, if you've had even a basic exposure to the art of painters, photographers and other canvas creating artists, you may know that they can have clever twists within the work such as playing with perspective, different stories within the picture painted such as characters interacting with other characters or elements of the picture and what this tells us, who is looking where and why, who is playing what roles.... .... .... so as you scan the painting you might see these in isolation and get that sense of what they show in isolation, then you start to see their different meanings within the whole painting/photograph, so a story from the teller's crafting it perspective is very much like having that whole canvas in front of them, even if they are still evolving it as they work on it, working on each little area of detail (thus story within the story) bit by bit but with that final reveal of the whole work once the viewer/reader has pieced all those elements together, done really well they've almost seen the whole work before the cloth is taken off. But that's where the method you suggest and how I see this in the picture context is so strong and effective, to the audience it is as if a cloth is being taken off the work to reveal it for the first time but in the case of a story the storyteller has planned it so the reveal branches and weaves out from that first corner, hooking them more and more to see how it will all connect in the end, eventually the viewer/reader sees the whole work, first with the 'finishing the jigsaw puzzle' experience of figuring out how the parts fit into the whole, but then, if you've got it right, the magic of how well they work as a whole which can be so so satisfying so the better you can craft that gradual piecing together of those visual elements the better so that (in the most enjoyable works from my experience as audience) there can be that real wow moment- the elements were interesting enough on their own and drew your interest in, but wow when you see how they all fit together within the story of the whole image (so think painting/novel/play/film/photograph and of course the classic comparison a tapestry- a concluding merging of several threads into a cohesive whole that makes sense) there's something powerful to it, which can vary for different types of story, anything from the heartbreaking tragedy of how something happened and led to some tragic outcome to the heartwarming joyful catharsis of something awful being resolved in some positive way or whatever else or combination of things make your overall 'story image'. Image, Middle English from Old French and Latin imago and connected to (to) imitate. Imitate, copy (which can include a person's personality traits) or simulate, emulate as a model, take as a pattern, and why does all art that really resounds with us work so well? Because it helps us understand something of the complexity of our 'selves' and everything around us. So weaving all these threads into one final hit is the breathtaking bit of the art, you've let them savor the painting by looking up close at its detail, now they're seeing the whole canvas. You've told each story within the story but now they are seeing how those stories are all really part of one bigger story. All those travelers on their own voyages and probably with their own destinations have ended up in this one place because their mind map and choices of turning (free or forced upon them by circumstance) have taken them here, even if 'here' wasn't the original plan. Mess it up and some of them will have hit dead ends lost on the way, which unless this works as part of that overall story will leave the audience a bit disappointed you didn't take them along the way with you. (Links to being careful who/what you kill off when and why if anybody/anything has to not make it to the end!) So thanks for sharing similar views and this really good tip. On which note if you've not done so already could you do something on how to make 'big' stories work (the problem of oh so many multi sequel films etc that end up not working quite so well as a whole) as I'm currently working on a big project for a game (homebrew stuff nothing serious I'd hope to become famous off!) but there's that concern of how do I manage the scope of something that needs to cover five ages with a lot of stuff going together as it's either going to go really well with the final 'threads coming together' being amazing or just be a confused messy mix of tastes of 'too many ingredients thrown in the soup cauldron', so wondering if you have any tips for making those big multi part sagas work (I guess mostly in terms of making them work as a whole as individually it is just the same as for a story, it gets trickier for the overall body of work hence the 'hated sequels' problem that can hit films, which applies to any big connected body of work. So tips for how to make something work that has a big canvas by its nature? If it helps as a starting point for any tips the big overall thread is about the consequences of individuals turning against each other (sometimes through circumstance such as the base need to just survive, othertimes through manipulation and power struggles/similar corruption), especially with a focus on the tragedy of this where the big canvas picture has that choice and consequence aspect. Naturally of course this getting resolved. So I know this aspect of how the threads weave together and resolve, it's just ways to do it so it's not messy due to the scale and scope. It should be doable as a lot of it is that there's a bit of a domino effect going on where social structures fracture because one thing leads to the next and things gradually escalate and snowball so the threads do naturally intertwine and I can see how they resolve (no spoilers :) ) but it's a challenging bit of weaving as five ages is a lot of characters and events (I'm ambitiously trying to weave a big game world together into one story like a saga of old across its five main ages) so a lot of need to avoid frayed bits that become weak or things unraveling.

I'm currently writing my first draft of my first book, and I planned the books middle out from the beginning. However, I am not sure 100% on the ending, but I have a vague idea which I feel is a good thing. So far I don't have any of these issues you mentioned, which I contribute to reading/listening to many fantasy novels. Also, my book is the product of many years of crafting a world idea for something else, and then the universe just so happened to nudge me into writing a story for that other thing.

This seriously broke me out of a writing funk! I've been stuck with an opening element for so long now but now I know what to do, Thank you so much!

Counterpoint to point one The lion king. Is stated very early on that scar gets his ass beat in a fight every time. But he still kills mufasa and takes over the kingdom.

If an antagonist is equal early on when both are week it's not unrealistic to have them be stronger later. If the MC is a warrior versing a mage for example it makes sense that when both are weak the MC would win, or the antagonist can simply have more resources because of their family. The antagonist can also be drunk at the time, or the MC could have won based on a sneak attack or due to the antagonists arrogance. There's lots of reasonable ways to have an easily beaten antagonist pose more of a threat later. I personally like writing MC's that are strong early on due to their advantage but weak later on as their advantage gets outclassed. I like writing about how their early advantage gave them a headstart and having them have to learn to lower their head later on until they eventually gain an advantage again. For example, if you're writing a beast tamer evolution novel, the MC can have an advantage due to his first contracted beast being a mutant, but later on it's more realistic for the MC to be going against beasts that outclass his from families that are far above his. Though I'm more of a long story enjoyer with thousands of chapters, not a few hundred. I'm not really a fan of cheats in novels either. I prefer writing MC's that have luck but don't have godly luck. For example, just because they get lucky and have a mutant beast doesn't mean they'll ever get another. Just because the MC got lucky and found a strong technique doesn't mean he'll be able to cultivate it to it's peak either, it's quite common for MC's to always have perfect affinity to obtained techniques, but I don't think that's realistic. My favorite novels have ordinary MC's with average or slightly above average talent that only moves up with time and strategy. Of course, lucky encounters are inevitable, but it's normal for someone to get lucky and doesn't have to be at every turn. I love clan building novels that go into depth of generations of wealth accumulating and the clan rising slowly.

If your issue is the middle but you have an idea for a beginning and end, did you really have a story idea? Or did you just have an idea for a story concept? Feel like sometimes people get too attached to an ending idea and stop writing when their story goes different places instead of sewing where their new ideas take them.

A lot of great insight in this. Thank you!

First one is why hazbin hotel feels so rushed

My next fantasy novel, Kingdom of Dragons, is out now! Check it out here: bit.ly/kingdom-of-dragons

@christophersavignon4191

7 ай бұрын

It is NOT acceptable for the antagonist to be saved by luck either. First off, it devalues the actions of both protagonist and antagonist so far to have the outcome be decided by luck. It also discredits your future narrative if the protagonist's hard work can be negated through contrived coincidence at any time. But worst of all, it messes with what you call the 3P. Promise, progress... no payoff, because the author wants to recycle the villain and was too unimaginative to make them reach round 2 through competence? That's a lazy writing in support of lazy writing, at the cost of reader satisfaction. No thanks.

@Jstaman

7 ай бұрын

You leave me alone about my potholes. I'll fix them............maybe. Love your vids

love the advice on the peter-out ending!!! Takes a lot of skill to create a scene that ties up all the plot points but if it works it's awesome!!!

The plot outlining may be a tool I may have to start using - considering the very first novel I'm currently working on has 4 main characters with one main antagonist that somehow integrated himself to be in all four of their lives indirectly. Great video!

I agree that overly passive characters are boring but it is possible to have an overly active character too. One of the reasons I like Katniss from the Hunger Games is because she is forced into such a passive role. She wants to be more active but circumstances keep forcing her to play pretend. She isn't ALWAYS fighting. Now she isn't completely passive either. It was her volunteering for the hunger games that set the whole story in motion and she certainly wasn't passive when she shot an arrow into an apple in the middle of a feast of the elites. But she can't just express her true hatred against those elites. She has to stay calm and collected at all times. I don't think the through line has to be summarized in a single sentence. I do agree that you need only one primary through line and that through line should be summarized but maybe the through line can be two sentences: one describing who the main character is and one describing what the character is up against. My solution to the soggy middle: instead of making the structure more complicated, I make the structure less complicated. It's just an upside checkmark. The beginning of the story is when the main character starts the main plot. Everything grows from there until the climax and then everything resolves. As long as your middle is building toward the climax, it doesn't have to be 50% of the story. Stop trying to apply a measuring tape to your story to make sure you have a long enough middle. Just write your story.

@Laf631

8 ай бұрын

There's a difference between Katniss, who is deliberately making decisions on how to act in situations where there aren't good choices, and what he's talking about, which is a character who things just happen to. Like the main character in The Final Girl Support Group does jack all for 90% of the book. Things are constantly happening around her, but she's just running away from place to place and not actually doing anything about the events in the book until the very end. She could be completely cut from the book and it wouldn't change the story. Katniss could not be removed from The Hunger Games.

@theunintelligentlydesigned4931

8 ай бұрын

@@Laf631 Well I'm not disagreeing with the video. I'm just pointing out that the opposite extreme is also a problem.

This was such an amazing and informative video. It has reinspired me to write my stories. I hope I can take this advice an apply it to what I've written and what I will write in the future. I hope u keep making videos like this.

Thanks for the advices. I love the idea of the 7 point plot structures which I now try to put into my stories.

I hate how they decided to have 2 more hours of movie after Smaug's death.. they should have changed the plot and have him survived the black arrow

@SaraL22

8 ай бұрын

I don't think Smaug was meant to be the main antagonist. He needed to be defeated for the main conflict of the story to be explored, which was greed I do have problems with the hobbit movies, but mainly with just the love triangle and how the master of laketown was portrayed (and WHY did Alfred Lickspittle happen)

Wow. You make writing fantasy seem boring and sterile where you just follow a format like a dressmaker. But writing isn’t like that… when you do it correctly.

@gowzahr

8 ай бұрын

I know a few seamstresses that would balk at the suggestion that they're work is boring and rote.

@gowzahr

8 ай бұрын

Also, there's a massive difference between creating your own outline and following someone else's outline.

Love all the videos Jed! I am a new fantasy writer, having a go at my first novel (which I picture as first of a trilogy). I appreciate these videos and the advice, really liked the 'scene format' one in particular! I do find it overwhelming however to see all the writing advice videos on KZread saying, 'Don't do this', 'Biggest writing mistakes', 'Do this in world-building!' etc. I feel like if I watched them all I would never write a thing or write what is naturally flowing out of me, instead I'd just be constantly second guessing myself. Having said that, I am curious if you have any videos that are specific to trilogies and that have more than one POV protagonist? Seems as though some of the advice here could be altered significantly in those scenarios. Thanks again and keep up the good work!

can you maybe put a link for scene formats to the video description? Never heard of or used these. Great advice, great vid! Keep going!

So the soggy middle of this video is literally an ad for your services? Fitting! Teach by example and all that.

Thanks for the video and new list on email. I'm always fond when you create a new list, they are awesome

10:10 I love the idea of the 7-point-structure because I felt the same way like you trying to make the 3-act-structure work.

Whenever I craft campaigns for D&D I come to these videos, I always like 'write' a script for myself to follow via the eyes of the party without knowing what my players are making. I know their alignments, I know the number of protagonists, I just don't know what they are. Generally I have every campaign planned out for about a month in advance. (every Friday, once a week.) Every adventure is a short story, leading up to the bigger picture, and what I feel like alot of fantasy settings miss is 'bigger fish.' Yes, you have the big bad evil guy, but they never explore the other adventuring parties. The ones who were there before our party formed. Alot of fantasy books I've personally read, make our protagonists big, strong, and kind of boring. There's never really any sacrifice, moral dilemma, or largely death within the core characters. I'm not afraid to kill off characters in my campaigns, it's not my intention, but it's not something I'm afraid of doing. The party can always lug their friends body around, and revive them later in the plotline 'stronger than before.' (but equal to their parties new level) because in death they became a champion of their god, or if they somehow don't believe in a god, in a time where gods are very much real, they claw their way out from the underworld, and back to their body with the help of their friends reviving them. Fantasy books lack any significant danger. I know going into it, Mary will beat the evil skeleton lord Jermorma. I want a story where about a third of the book is under the perspective of Mary, and her party. Where jermorma actually wins, the party challenged the end game boss early, and now it's up to our little rag tag group of adventurers to work their way up to defeat Jermorma before he can finish his evil skeleton plan. Make Villain's Scary Again.

#1 can also apply to villains who aren't the main antagonist, IMO. Mass Effect 3 has a character who's kind of famous for this; a guy named Kai Leng. He's clearly MEANT to be a kind of dark rival, a guy who's just as skilled and powerful as the protagonist and working for the bad guy, who serves as a recurring obstacle throughout the game, building things up towards a final confrontation. This is actually one of the most popular character archetypes in action games and role-playing games; it's commonly accepted by players that the coolest antagonists are almost never the main antagonist, but the recurring secondary antagonist who fights like you (has a similar skill set/fighting style, has similar powers, etc.) and is either just as good as you or starts out way better and you have to catch up to them throughout your successive fights with them to finally face them as equals towards the end. Kai Leng fails at being this kind of character, because it seems very clear he isn't actually on the protagonist's level. At every turn, he abjectly refuses to actually face the protagonist head-on, and he relies on plot fiat and outside assistance to bail him out every time (most famously when he's bragging about how much better he is than you as he's using a gunship to provide covering fire to let him escape from having to actually back up all his tough talk). He becomes a recurring nuisance rather than a badass rival, for similar reasons that beating the main antagonist early on makes them feel like they're no longer a threat and deflate tension. Because even though you don't ACTUALLY beat him early on in the story, the player gets the distinct impression throughout these encounters that he's just a nuisance who can't actually back up the threat he's being built up as, so there's no tension when confronting him, just a roll of the eyes that "Oh God, I have to put up with this loser again."

This felt like so much good advice for free. Thank you sir you're a gentleman and a scholar

Loved your tips and advices!

Your videos have been extremely helpful in helping me dust off old skills and learn new ones to apply to my writing. Thank you for making these! 🤘🏻🦄

@Jed_Herne

2 ай бұрын

You're welcome!

Oh my god this is so helpful. I always intuitively knew something was off, now I know what it is!

Thanks very much, Jed. I can sense in all of this.

This was very useful for me as a first time writer. Thanks.

Yo I've been playing choice of game books since 2013 and their published games have been a big part of my life and just recently randomly found your channel and watched a lot of your videos. So cool to see you made a game published by them

@teaemperor1055

Ай бұрын

I also just realised I've read/played your game twice around the time it came out 2022!

Hi Jed. Killer video. You've earned a new subscriber! I have a question for you about passive main characters. My MC for my space fantasy book has self-esteem issues. Do you find it bad to have a story happen to a passive character until halfway through the book when they are forced to make a choice? I want to note that my story is an ensemble cast. It follows several characters for the first half of the book until the MC is "ready" to lead the rest of the book. What do you think about this?

I am a long time Sanderson fan. I learned of you because of him. I am so thankful. Your mind is incredible. I need you to never stop creating and teaching Jed. One day (when I finish school), I'm going to pay for your services. I can't wait to see your critiques on one of my manuscripts.

@Jed_Herne

8 ай бұрын

Thanks for the kind words! I very much feel like I'm at the start of my journey (both when it comes to writing + KZread), so hopefully the mind just keeps improving from here :)

I love writing, and this video is really helpful!!!

Some really good points! Great video :-)

I will keep those in mind as I'm writing my first book.

Solid advice and useful tips.

You have no idea how helpful the 7 point plot structure is. Thank you. 😊

One through line to rule them all! Good take, Jed!

I've been thinking about writing for a little while now and have gone back and forth on whether or not I want to do it. I have no real english background being in the tech industry but I miss having creative outlet. I've really enjoyed watching your videos! Even if I dont end up actually writing anything its pretty fun to think about the process and hear dymystify things a bit. Thanks for the nice tips!

I'm in the first 4 min. of this video, and I already a big fan of your tips/advice :D

This is pretty neat. I don't write novel level stuff, mostly because I can't focus on more than one character without my ability to remain in-character disintegrating, but on a smaller scale stuff like this can apply to roleplay I figure.

Just stumbled across this channel today and am now your newest sub 😊. Just writing my first fantasy novel, would love to see something come of it but having fun regardless. Fortunately not broken any of thise rules in my plan at least, but the structure is very different to the usual 3 phases and your 7, fingers crossed its not going to be offputting!

One mistake I sometimes do is that I mention a random detail in an off-hand way like I'm foreshadowing something important but then it never comes up again.

Ok. This was great. Thanks, Jed.

Thanks for the tips! I was kinda stuck for a while on this story i've been making for a long time and getting pretty worried i was going to give up. Turns out i just needed to think about where it was going to end (i guess outlining is pretty important lol)

Good stuff! People should keep in mind that these arent hard rules. With enough skill and the right audience, these can be all broken. But i think the main goal is to give advice on what usually trips up new writers. So good to keep that in mind.

This is quite honestly very good advice. While I rarely follow rules such as these, mainly focussing on making the story make sense and being something I would read, I addmit these are very good notes. One pushback though, passivity of your protagonist can be the point, so while it certainly requires skill and I personally do not like that style myself. I would be bit more causcious about saying to not make your protagonist passive.