Adv… the bike most people actually need when they buy a BMW GS 1250 😂

@jessaphillips2846

2 жыл бұрын

Sad part is both of these bikes can go 90% of the places a GS can go.

@Moondoggy1941

2 жыл бұрын

Ouch.

@khakiclay7995

Ай бұрын

Thats why they make a 310gs, and "most" is the diff of walking home or not. And trail 125 is made for slow and rough vs the 150s streets and hard pack. Diff gearing.

paid $3,999 in march for my pcx150 with anti-lock. original intent was for my daily commute but i've ridden it all over the place. last weekend i took it on a 200 mile trip, most on windy mountain roads but about 50 miles on a highway @ 65mph. handles fine even at the faster speeds. end of the day i averaged 102+ mpg. around town going 50 or less i average around 110mpg. great investment and a fun to boot

@garyteague4480

3 жыл бұрын

Awesome

@seanpalmer2050

2 жыл бұрын

Thats great. I've had mine since I bought it new in 2011. I get about 87mpg. Your figures blow me away Especially at those speeds

@gigi9467

Жыл бұрын

What is the top speed?

@boedude8496

Жыл бұрын

@@gigi9467 mine is 67mph, tho i have heard of some going 70+

The brain says “ADV150”, the heart says “Trail 125”. I have my deposit in for the next one that gets to my dealer.

@krollpeter

3 жыл бұрын

The moment of truth comes when you drop them. CT: Pick me up and go ahead, continue! ADV 150: Can you call the tow truck and repair all my plastic first?

@staninjapan07

3 жыл бұрын

I agree with Peter about the situation if you drop it but... I have the 2015 PCX 150, which this guy says the ADV is based on. I do all maintenance myself with a modest collection of tools and modest amount of basic training / self teaching / KZread. I can wholeheartedly recommend the 2nd gen PCX (2015 onwards). So if the ADV 150 is as good, you'll be happy. I get great reliability and an average of 47 kilometres per litre / 132 miles per UK gallon / 110 miles pe US gallon over 5 years / 55,000 kilometres (34,000 miles). Good luck.

@user-sw2lv3zp6o

3 жыл бұрын

@@staninjapan07 Great reliability.

@FrankieShovels

3 жыл бұрын

2022 Zuma 125 it is

@user-sw2lv3zp6o

3 жыл бұрын

@@FrankieShovels Aerox 155.

Had the 110 back in the 80’s, loved it. Now at 73 my big bikes are getting too heavy for me and I’m camping more in my RV. This is the niche for me, bringing it with on the back of my van! It’s a 125, it is what it is. Want to go fast not the bike for you. A lightweight trail bike easy to ride this is it. I’m #4 at my dealer waiting for mine👍

@jgfinney5447

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, I got the 125 this year and I’m 70. I had the heavy bikes in my younger years, just not interested in them anymore, but love the 125. The guys on the Harleys don’t wave to me, some sneer. Don’t care at all.

@darcychu9652

2 жыл бұрын

A "twist and go" mini scooter like Honda Navi would be easier for you to carry along with your RV.

@ama409573

2 жыл бұрын

Went with the twist and go ADV 150, love it❤️

Don't let the 150cc engine fool ya. Honda did a great job with this. I've owned the ADV 150 for over a year now and recently did a group ride with 15 other motorcycles. It's on my channel if you're interested to see how it rides with other bikes. It does have a limiter around 67mph, but I don't ride on highways so it's no big deal. It's basically a PCX150 with a facelift and better rear suspension.

I love my ADV 150!! Always looking for an excuse to run another errand! :)

@honda116969

3 жыл бұрын

That's 🆒 dude I hope you enjoy that bike very very cool! I have the Yamaha Zuma 125 I've had it for over a decade and absolutely love it over 8,000 miles I have ridden it on and off road perfectly reliable

The CT110 was one of the best bikes I've ever owned. Great around town, great on the trails, I'd take one down Baja without a second thought.

@QuasiMotard

3 жыл бұрын

+1! I'm tentatively planning a trip with a friend to ride our CT125's from Houston, TX down to Belize via Mexico... we'll just take our time and moto-camp along the way. 👍 --QM

@findingneutral

3 жыл бұрын

@@QuasiMotard That will be an epic test run trip right there. Awesome 👌

@GratefulEd907

3 жыл бұрын

I just picked up an 81 ct110 for $200 with a title needs a little love but should be fun this summer

@QuasiMotard

3 жыл бұрын

@@GratefulEd907 Wow, that's a great find! I've been looking for one in decent condition for several years, but everyone wanted collector's item prices... usually over $3K. Good luck with the clean up, and let us know how it works out for you! Cheers! 👍 --QM

@GratefulEd907

3 жыл бұрын

@@QuasiMotard my wife wasn’t happy about me buying a bike that don’t run but after seeing the prices I convinced her I wasn’t spending $200 I was getting $1000 for free. It’s all about perspective.

I'm waiting on a Trail 150 to appear. It's about time Honda continues the history of offering a slightly larger engine. I'd pay an extra $500 for it

@jackvliet

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely, I'd like to get a trail 125, but a 150 would be mine as soon as I could get one. Just so it could reach 60mph and take inclines better.

Was looking at the CT125 as a bike i could travel with on my van because of its lightweight. I was really unaware of the ADV 150 until I saw your comparison. After watching several similar reviews between the two I decided on the 150. Fortunately my dealer had one in stock which I put my deposit on. For what I wanted to use it for the increased speed capability is what sold me, a much more versatile bike! Thanks for the review 👍

@jaywinters2483

7 ай бұрын

Had the ADV. hated it. Tires too small. Rough ride. Can’t stand up like you can for Trail. Taller tires are HUGE advantage on bumps. Asian scooters are not fun on huge potholes in NE US. Can’t really do trails w fun on ADV

I'd have to agree that the adv is better objectively but let's be honest the trail is the one the heart wants, it's cool af!

I actually like both of these. I have a real sentimental connection with the Trail 125 though. My grandfather had a Trail 90 when I was a kid in the 60's and this new one makes me think about him every time I see it.

@kennypool

3 жыл бұрын

Not for 4k . ridiculous

BTW I have been getting 125 mpg around town, about 100 mpg on the open road (about 45 mph), and about 75 mpg when WOT. ADV 150

Great down to earth unpretentious reviews! I noticed the damage to the ADV early on and wondered what had happened. Brave of you to include it in the vid...shit happens! You both have my respect and subscription. Looking forward to more content.

I have 3 CT 90s and a CT 110 for riding with the grandkids in the Idaho mountains. New riders ride them with ease! This review misses the fact they are loved by everyone! If I ride in Boise with my dog in a milk crate in the back, people tell me all the time how the CT 90 was their first motorcycle on the farm and how they still love it! Twice people have borrowed it for a nostalgic ride!

My first bike was a 1968 Trail 90. I had such a blast on the trails and in the snow. I knew nothing about maintenance at age 12, I don't think I ever put oil in it! Great way to learn and I was hooked on bikes ever since.

@splashblue7170

3 жыл бұрын

I just got a 64 ct200 and the oil definitely looked like it had never been changed in 6000 miles and all these years

Horses for courses! The Trail is great for an RV - narrow for loading and off-road-ish. Long Beach is great and YOU GUYS RODE THE NEW BRIDGE!!

The Trail 125 really needs a traditional clutch/gear setup. The automatic clutch robs it of power.

Great overview guys. CVT in small capacity machines always wins if you have limited hp Infinite gearing is really ideal . Off road though locking in a gear is better as you can pre emt the terrain ahead. PS the cub engines biggest change was that the original was push rod (C100 ) the C50 moved to OHC

i still wish they would have added the HI/LO gearbox selector..... this would have been soooooo cool... killer feature

@yamkaw346

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah that would have made the trail next level cool. Guess it cost to much to develop it, I know they thought about it

@ramiretz

3 жыл бұрын

@@yamkaw346 oh yes this would have been a wonderful feature...... unstoppable in rough terrain with the LOW gearbox and fast enough on HIGH on the Road

@yamkaw346

3 жыл бұрын

@@ramiretz Maybe if it sells well enough they will invest the money to develop that gear box. I’d have to buy one then.

I want them both, but I can only justify one Honda Minimoto in the garage and the Monkey 125 already has that locked down. If I was big shot money bags, I'd buy my dad the CT125.

@bucktooth002

2 жыл бұрын

I want five.

You guys live in a wonderful climate. Envy, envy! Nice review too.

The Honda ADV 150 is the GS of 150cc off road scooters. If that is a thing.

Thanks for posting, the Honda Trail 125 is very seductive and had my eye as a potential next scooter. I currently own Yamaha Xmax and love the response and high end, but after watching this I will most likely keep what I have.

The Trail 125 is really rugged looking, ironically it kind of reminds me of my old Tomos scooter from the 90’s... the ADV150 looks exactly like what it is, a PCX150 with extra suspension travel... I like the PCX and the ADV but I would pick the Trail just for the looks even though it’s slower

@thelosteights9012

3 жыл бұрын

That's what I first thought of when I saw the Trail 125, I have an old Puch moped that looks really similar

@jessaphillips2846

2 жыл бұрын

@@thelosteights9012 I think the Tomos and the Puch scooters are the same bikes sold in different markets

Thank you to Ryan for the brief summary of off-road capability of the CT125. Not a lot of detail, but i think he helps clarify that this CT125, without the high/low transmission, is not quite the mountain goat that some of the olders CTs were

Great Vid guys, I remember the 125 from back in the day. Do you know what Suzuki's plans are for the Burgman 650?

I will be getting a Honda in the spring... And plan on letting my great grandkids ride it!

I had a 1973 Honda SL125 many years ago and I currently own a 2010 SH125i. Completely different riding experiences but both fulfill their intended purposes well. Same Honda DNA.

They do have foot pegs and back seat cushion you can buy too. Most people move the shifter front end up more too.

That snorkle thing is what we actually need here in the Philippines!

The ADV 150 kind of remind's me of my Y2K Piaggio X9 250 Mk1 which was Powered by a Honda Foresight Engine and Drive train. I had many Great adventure's on that machine in the short 2 year's before I Stupidly left the key's in it one night....Vanished never to be seen or heard of again. Now in my mid 50's so I don't think I could safely handle anything bigger than a 150cc machine Especialy since I haven't been on a Motor Cycle since 2010. Great review and Keep up the Good work.

Thank you so much for doing this video!!!! Love the CT125!!!

I've been open road riding, city riding, and off road riding my ADV and it works great in all these conditions. Had full camping gear plus a few other items all under the seat! The only drawback off road is the clearance from the CVT and center stand. I got it stuck in some very thick/deep sand and had to dig it out. The 125 would not have gone as far as the ADV though with those skinnier tires.

@motohound90

2 жыл бұрын

Here is a great accessory for camping. kzread.info/dash/bejne/nJuXm5OaYZu3ZbQ.html

I was torn between these 2 bikes, but the ADV150 was AU$6300 where the CT125 was AU$7000. I couldn't justify $7K for a postie bike, so I got the scooter and I love it. So comfy to ride long distances, highway friendly, and the underseat storage is amazing. I've got a few videos about it on my channel. I'm still tempted to get a used CT110 for around AU$1500 though, for knocking around on the dirt trails.

@domenik8339

Жыл бұрын

Did you end up trading the ADV 150 for the trail? I'm deciding between the two of them, so mind if I ask why?

@WildStuff

Жыл бұрын

@@domenik8339 I ended up buying a new CT125, and I am still keeping the ADV150 as well. The ADV150 is my comfortable road scooter, and I'm using the CT125 for knocking around off road, and moto-camping.

@domenik8339

Жыл бұрын

@@WildStuff Makes sense, thank you!

I love the Trail 125, but isn't the point of such a simple bike to be very cheap? It should really be under 3k.

@omicrondec

3 жыл бұрын

I wish they were cheap....

@argacc20417

3 жыл бұрын

In my country around 5K because import tax, same engine but different shape and local manufacturing only 1-1, 2K

I've lived with a 125cc bike for 3 years in the US, and unless you are comfortable riding 45mph on whatever highway you travel on, don't get a Bike with less than 12HP. Mine (KYMCO K-Pipe125) would go 52MPH flat out (62 in a Tuck) but that's at 100% power. Running any motor for hours wide open isn't great for its longevity. Even the 150cc bikes you are going to be at V-Max on the open road a lot. If you are travelling by Motorcycle in anything you go Highway speeds, the bikes that will do highway speeds uphill start at 250cc.

How much does the ADV 150 weigh? We are looking for a minimoto for our RV. Love to look of the Trail. Like the speed of the 150

Wish they shared the 150 on the trail. What is wrong with an analog gauge? How is the knee room? I am 6 feet tall with boots on the Yamaha Zooma had no leg room for me.

Honda should just upgrade the Ruckus with the long-travel suspension they put on this ADV, a 150-ish engine, slightly beefed-up frame to handle it and a bigger fuel tank. They'd have a winner on their hands.

Lots of great info in this comparison

I bought an ADV 150 last week in Philippines. Will use it to go island hopping next January in retirement.

The trail with the new 5 speed transmission from the Grom is probably the best option

@amatureskater15

2 жыл бұрын

still kinda slow but yea

The scooter for urban use. The Trail 125 for camping trails

They're nice but to be honest new CB350 H'NESS already stole my heart. I used to have a single cylinder air cooled like that years ago. Now I want it again. Can you guys force Honda to import it to the US!? 😆

@gerry2893

3 жыл бұрын

Honda introduced a Scrambler version of the CB350 (RS). Again, for overseas.

@splashblue7170

3 жыл бұрын

Sucks living in Canada, no 350 or trail 125. Im looking at just getting a 74 ct90 and 72 cb350 instead, and they'll probably look better and run longer in the end..

@sking2173

3 жыл бұрын

@@splashblue7170 - The old CB350 twin was a fantastic little machine. I can’t imagine that a single is nearly as pleasant, especially at highway speeds ...

The low range is what made it good off road

_"It's OK for me to ride on the sidewalk"_ *also* _"It's OK for me to be on the freeway"_

good stuff guys! That ADV 150 is sweet.

Like to know what top speed is and what cruising speed is also mpg, I have a 2005 Big Ruckas 250 I generally get 60 + mpg it had 3000 miles on it when I bought it, into has 35,000 miles on it, I do love it. Top speed around 70 mph with me on it, but I am not a little guy, 6' 2" and around 350 lbs

as a teen, i had a trail-90, & as an adult, i had a klr-650; unlike most motorcycles, both of them teach patience. :-)

Any off road? They both are supposed to be able to,?

Thanks for comparing these two bikes. I would like to see a comparison between the new ct125 Hunter Cub and an 80's model of the ct110 and 70's ct90. Take these bikes to the areas they are designed to be ridden. They ARE absolutely PERFECT for riding through death valley, just bring extra gas and water!

If you buy the CT125 now, your grandkids will ride it in 35 years. The ADV150 will be a long forgotten resident of a dump or sent to a recycler.

@guitarbam

3 жыл бұрын

I agree, CT is "Classic"

@JumpingWatermelons

3 жыл бұрын

In the U.S., resale valur of the ADV will be poor, but those SH bikes (which this is based on) are incredibly good and reliable bikes. They can potentially be ridden regularly forany decades.

@kamerad_marzuki3631

3 жыл бұрын

CT125 is 70 times more expensive than a regular Honda 125 or ADV here in Indonesia.

Excellent thanks. ADV 150! My Vespa needs a companion.

I am obsessed with the ADV 150! I need to own this scooter!

@tombombadilofficial

Жыл бұрын

Check out the adv 160 or adv 350

@515ventures3

Жыл бұрын

@@tombombadilofficial thanks! My current issue is with the out of date DMV’s out there. Here is my explanation that I sent to someone else: I was told that I can get my license by using a street legal scooter. Anything over 50cc. Clutch is become a thing of the past. There are now so many CVT bikes out there. This is a new era, a new generation of riders. I have my drivers license to drive a car. I never needed to know stick shift to pass the test. That is now becoming the same with bikes. Many DMV’s are behind on the times. They need to update their books and training. The important thing is not how to operate a clutch, the important thing is how to operate a bike safely on a public road! If motor bikes only had a clutch, I would find something else to be interested in. I despise the clutch! So if I need to know clutch in order to take my drivers test, then I probably won’t even bother!

as a 2021 Trail CT125 owner who has done many many miles on mine (on road, off road, in-town, TAT etc), I agree 100% with everything these fellows say

I'm 75 now and I ride a Versys X300. The Harleys got too big and heavy. I'm looking to add something to run around town and the Grom, Monkey and ADV150 are on the list. Hopefully the backlog will end sooner than later. Getting old won't stop you from riding, but smaller bikes seem way more fun now.

Just a humble guy sitting in the garage staring at my Suzuki Barge-size Executive… wishing the X-ADV was available here.. wonder how either one of these little buggers would haul my 240 lb. butt around these mountain roads?

@dank9288639

Жыл бұрын

same lol... wondering If they have enough sack to haul me around

Why the heck were you on the left lane when you were just doing 55-62mph?

ADV: better in most ways Trail: Doesn't trip on rails

They ADV 150 for me made me sell my Grom I think I enjoy it more for blasting to the grocery store esp with all of the underseat storage. You can't beat it. You meet the nicest people on a Honda!

I want the trail125. Already have my triumph bobber for the city and high way.

Of the 2bikes, I'd opt for the ADV150. I had a Yamaha Vino125 that was barely adequate in traffic. The ADV is more capable in traffic. With that said, I'm looking at Yamaha's X-Max300. It'll handle freeway speeds, gets great mpg, has storage space, and more....👍😺

How's the pricing in the US? Here Honda think a CT250 should cost CFR250L money lol It's cute, but it's not worth that hipster tax. I see it looks okay at about $4k, how does that stack up to other honda bikes in the US?

I was thinking about upgrading my CCP 49 cc scooter to a Trail for food delivery. I don't do anything outside of the downtown/urban core so top speed isn't an issue. Size is more of the going concern. But now I've got either the ADV or PCX 150 on my radar. That rear rack on the Trail would be hard to beat tho'.

@amatureskater15

2 жыл бұрын

ADV for sure

I love the Trail 125, but I'd rather have the ADV150. It's better in almost every way.

Is the ct125 coming to Europe? Does anybody know somethings about it?

Burns is a national treasure

I get it : Honda wants to appeal to the riders of old ! BUT, where they are missing the boat is in ignoring the shorter majority ( 26"-30") inseam of people who want to ride a motorcycle ( any F****) motorcycle. Fine, so you can lower the seat, the frame. shocks, and add $5000.00 to the cost of your ride ! Yeah, like the average short guy ( probably short in other areas too ) can afford all that. What the makers do not realise is that there is an untapped reservoir of riders who want to throw a leg over but cannot find a ride equal to their size. If Honda built for the home market they'd make them smaller, but they only make them for the Bunyan family of riders !

@findingneutral

3 жыл бұрын

You are so correct. I'm short and its so limiting. And how many daddy long legs do you see riding bikes with their knees touching the grips? Not many in my parts.

7:46 that shot is badass 😁

Great review

I'd like to see the ADV 750 over here... The UK are getting it along with the EU...

The larger wheel diameter makes ct125 trail much smoother over bad roads.

Liken The TRAIL! Thanks! What's your opinion? About The Super Cub? And The Ruckus? Have only seen The Ruckus at one dealer. Haven't seen the others in person yet. Thanks PRAISE GOD! And Have a Good One!

The CT needs a 150 engine, as does the Grom and the Monkey. I ride a Yamaha Aerox 155 sports scooter. It leaves the ADV 150.

which one is more reliable?

Moved to the country with lots of gravel roads so the cbr500 has to go. I want that 125 for buzzing around town and usfs trails. Ill take one in tri-color white please. Fun!

@dp4auburn

3 жыл бұрын

Spend another grand and get a CRF250L and have way more fun and not feel like you’ll get run over in town.

@tercelfish00

3 жыл бұрын

@@dp4auburn That's a good point, I can probably get one used for the same price of a 125, and won't hold up traffic on 55mph posted roads. Ill have to ride both and see. The wife really wants the 125 because she's scared of a clutch, and sick of riding on the back of the cbr.

I don’t know what the need is for highway speed. I thought this is a trail bike reminiscent of low geared trail biking. Like the CT70

The CT125 will be going strong in 50 years, and a collectible classic. The ADV is nice but just another bland scooter.

Tw200 for me. Built the same since the late 80s and is basically a tank. This trail 125 is too expensive for a 125cc bike

@GratefulEd907

3 жыл бұрын

I’m tempted to sell my 07 Yamaha xt225 so I can buy a new Honda ct70 clone with a 125cc electric start and disk brake up front. They’re only $1,250 plus shipping. But I’m in Alaska so I need to check shipping cost first.

@lilredwagon5311

3 жыл бұрын

@@GratefulEd907 i was looking at some of those clones too. Like a monkey clone or something but I figure I'd probably like something in the 200cc range

@lilredwagon5311

3 жыл бұрын

@@GratefulEd907 its kinda sad that the big 3 japanese bike manufacturers charge so much for their 125cc bikes anymore. When I started riding 13 years ago I started small with the kawasaki 125 eliminator and that bike was only 2300 bux brand new and it took me all over the place in town and it struggled but it got me to 50mph haha!

@GratefulEd907

3 жыл бұрын

@@lilredwagon5311 yeah considering they don’t really hold their value that much. You can get a used grom just a few years old for about half the price of a new one

@lilredwagon5311

3 жыл бұрын

@@GratefulEd907 my thing with the clone bikes though is can their "durability" be trusted like the name brands?

Thanks, I enjoyed that.

I feel like the trail would be great on the back of a van or rv, and it has a lot more spunk.

Why is John Burns talking like he is at an auction 🤣

I'm biased...I have an adv150...and a kawaski concour14...and theyre' both a blast to ride. I live on a barrier island in SE Gerogia... and I ride my adv150 if I'm tooling around the island, simply because it's fucking fun to ride!

My first Honda was a 150 dream at 14 .

If they would make a 300 ADV, that would be great. A 150 is a little too light.

@CKPHH

3 жыл бұрын

My thought exactly

@bobjuniel8683

3 жыл бұрын

See the Honda X-ADV750 and or the Honda Forza 300cc

@sldessel

3 жыл бұрын

@@bobjuniel8683 not sold in the US...

@garyteague4480

3 жыл бұрын

For someone like me that is 64 years old I like that it’s light and still will go 65

@bobjuniel8683

3 жыл бұрын

@@garyteague4480 I just bought a Honda ADV-150cc. I am just tall enough to ride it at 5’6’’ or 1.676 meters tall. The seat height is 31” or 79cm. Very comfortable CVT automatic, seems to be higher geared than our new Honda PCX-160cc Special Edition. The PCX is lighter than the older model and the special edition has wider tyres and improved lights. My old PCX would do 70 MPH or 115 MPH. They say the ADV-150cc will do 85 MPH or 135 KPH. It will take a while to run it in and I don’t ride fast. I am 77 years old. I have fitted many extras including metal foot grips to both bikes so I feel comfortable standing if necessary for more control as my feet will not slip. No foot rests is the worst aspect of scooters riding off road. In Thailand highway speed is 90KPH. No motorcycles on freeways with 120 KPH speed limit. The PCX-160 has a slightly bigger engine and it’s seat is 1” or 25mm lower. It is easy to ride. Both bikes are powerful enough for cruising and touring and as faster as most cars to 60KPH. Both bikes with extras were about ฿115,000 or €3,145 or USD $3,742 on the road in Thailand. It is just profiteering that they are so expensive overseas. I prefer the ADV-150 as it is an all terrain road bike. Thai roads can be in need of repair. It’s tyres are for off road but they are still good on road. My Thai lady loves the PCX-160 as it is a great sealed road and highway bike. She is too short to ride the ADV-150. Your comment came to me by accident.

Is it just me or is there definitely more passion for owning a small bike? They are just more fun!!!

Does anyone know what jacket the trail rider is wearing?

Very good information here.

If you want your Trail 125 to go faster, get behind a tractor trailer going out of town. Rung my speedometer cable off and took both brakes and the gears to break away. Also burned a hole in the piston, which Honda fixed for free because it was under warranty.

@armadilllo

3 жыл бұрын

when you're drafting there is no wind to cool the motor

ADV 150 Indonesian version has rear disc brake and ABS option

Meanwhile I'm sitting over here Waiting in suspense for @SomeGuyRides to drop his next vid of him & his STOCK 🛵 Honda Trail 125 doing the cross country TAT.

Burns is the best!

Honda Trail 125 Developing Country Special Edition 😎

This looks so fun fun 🤩

min 5:05. Why the rear tire on the trail is upside down.

Is the adv gredeg gredeg?

The AdV clutch bell will just burn when using it off-road. Tried and tested. The XRM (cub 125 ) will climb on low gear slowly like a mountain bike

Honda Trail all day every day!

Nice job

A lot of what they found applies to 250 duals too