One argument I wish I addressed in the video given that I’ve seen it a number of times in the comments: The OC is better stylistically because it indicates where you’d naturally take a pause in the sentence. 1. You do not write a comma every single time you take a pause. If you did, this, is how I would write this sentence. I would put a comma, right, here. Which, looks weird! 2. It’s also completely natural to not take a pause when listing those last two items (especially if the list is longer than 3). Find videos of people listing things and you’ll see it’s also incredibly normal to group those last two items together without a pause. I will concede the point though that if *every single item* in the list has an “and” in it (like “Ben and Jerry” and “Tom and Jerry”) then an OC would help. But you could also just use an & to clarify things.

@XaviLR

8 ай бұрын

oxford commas just taste really good

@ballsalsda

8 ай бұрын

​@@XaviLR they what now

@danielyoutubechannel407

8 ай бұрын

@@ballsalsda they taste good didn't you here the man!?

@mite3959

8 ай бұрын

1. How tf do you talk if you pause like that?! After an introductory, you pause after the next word??? You pause before and after the word “right” for some reason?!?!!? Stress isn’t the same as pauses! 2. Maybe it’s the lack of a serial comma that is causing this. I see no reason to randomly speed up at the end of a list. 3. A lot of the examples you gave could be easily fixed by adding different punctuation (parentheses or dashes) instead of commas. Granted, it looks uglier, but for the average person, it’s easier than reformatting the entire sentence. 4. Many of the example languages you gave also happen to give objects genders, which is one of the stupidest ideas of language in general, and the lack of it is one of the few saving graces of the English language, so don’t use the fact that many languages have a similar trait as a sign that that trait is a good, helpful thing. Also, others, like Arabic and Chinese, didn’t use a standardized punctuation until recently from Western influence.

@aidenburgess217

8 ай бұрын

Bad argument, pausing for emphasis, and pausing for flow, are unique sentence points. The OC isn't always necessary, but I'd much prefer to add punctuation to my sentence over changing the structure.

I may not need it, but I want it

@steviecollins8425

9 ай бұрын

, and i know what you mean

@mygills3050

9 ай бұрын

⁠@@steviecollins8425 ,and what about two ‘and’s in the same list (what’s the verdict on that)

@tickleman127

9 ай бұрын

You definitely need it

@greanbeen2816

9 ай бұрын

@@tickleman127explain

@nailearnsfrench

9 ай бұрын

@@tickleman127 nuh uh

I've always been an advocate of the Oxford comma, but I feel compelled to concede to the case you make. Better wording has more power to disambiguate than an easy-to-miss comma.

@GaviLazan

9 ай бұрын

I feel similarly.

@GaviLazan

8 ай бұрын

@@Maxzes_ I don't think either of us "care" as much as you think we do, but there are definitely people who are very passionate about many things, grammar and spelling included.

@tuskiie

8 ай бұрын

likewise

@sumdumbmick

8 ай бұрын

the only use of an oxford comma is to absolve the author of the responsibility of sorting a 3-item list. if you're advocating for it then it means you're actually too stupid to determine how to sort a 3-item list. I would be ashamed to admit to ever advocating for it, if I were you.

@BeeboCertified

27 күн бұрын

@@sumdumbmickPersonally, I just like how it looks 😊

As a German, who was disciplined never to use a comma before the word ‘and,’ I’ve loooved the Oxford comma ever since knowing it. It gives me freedom. It’s a rebellion against German

@McRusen

9 ай бұрын

The rule is not as strict though. Zu meinem Geburtstag kommen meine Eltern, meine Cousine, ein Überraschungsgast, auf den ich sehr gespannt bin, und meine Schwester. Although the case is basically the same: You'd probably restructure the sentence for more clarity, e.g. by putting the surprise guest at the end.

@timcordes4762

9 ай бұрын

​@@McRusenThe rule can't be applied here because "auf den ich sehr gespannt bin" is a subordinate clause (Nebensatz) which is separated by commas.

@McRusen

9 ай бұрын

@@timcordes4762 That's exactly my point? 😅 You can't blindly apply "no comma before 'and'", even in an enumeration, because there are exceptions. Given in an example.

@mandel94

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, in Denmark we learn the same thing

@1kaz1

8 ай бұрын

Same as a Spanish speaker, as soon as I learned about the Oxford coma I adopted it

Having my entire mental model of the oxford comma broken down to "it's just vibes" was not what I was expecting

I sometimes use an oxford comma when listing things that include the word 'and' in the name of the item itself, for example "Artists use pencils, chalk, pen and ink, and other materials." the comma here just makes it a bit easier to read and make sense of the list, but an alternative is replacing the 'and' in "pen and ink" with & and then omitting the comma, "Artists use graphite, chalk, pen & ink and other materials." both are valid but I agree it's not going to decide any court cases, a badly written document won't be fixed by a single comma like how an amputated limb won't be fixed with a band-aid.

@cowzee

9 ай бұрын

The oxford comma is still not really necessary - you could just rearrange the list. "Artists use pen and ink, chalk, pencils and other materials"

@Crazy_Diamond_75

9 ай бұрын

@@cowzee Honestly, you don't even need to do that: "Artists use pencils, chalk, pen and ink and other materials" I would argue that that sentence is still very clear, and that "pen and ink" is still conveyed as a unified category. If the rule is that the last conjunction acts as the final list separator, then that's exactly how you would read it.

@lilymoon2829

9 ай бұрын

​​@@Crazy_Diamond_75 oh but that double 'and' does weird things to my brain, none of them good 😅 There something about the Oxford comma that just breaks up the sentence so nicely, especially if you're thinking about reading out loud. Maybe it's because I come from a background of theatre and working with children where I do a lot of reading out loud that those commas feel so essential to me... I think a good way to rephrase it would be "Artists use graphite, chalk, pen and ink, as well as other materials" pretty much solves the problem of the comma and does away with the double 'and'.

@LilBoyHexley

9 ай бұрын

I agree, maybe it's not necessary but to my eyes it makes many lists read nicer. Like if you're listing a guest list: We're inviting Sarah, Anthony, Sam and his kids, Rebecca, and Alex. It just feels like it provides better delineation and rhythm to the sentence. And it maybe there isn't *true* ambiguity, but it does explicitly differentiate something in the list as an associated pairing. And while these are specific examples, it's not exactly a complicated grammar rule to apply universally.

@robotwizard1066

8 ай бұрын

@@LilBoyHexley i understand that this does, clear up the sentence, but phrases with "and" in them are usually saved for the end of the list or they sound weird, as it does here, i would end that list with "sam and his kids" because the and already implies a certain finality and throwing more list items after that is a bit confusing and doesnt sound great

I just like the oxford comma because it seems to more naturally indicate where you actually pause in a list. Writing something like "I invited Alex, Sam and Chris" makes me read it as if there's no rest between the word "Sam" and the word "and," which seems odd. Ultimately it's definitely just a case of preference though

@gemmamalo96

9 ай бұрын

Same, I'm a super fast reader but I always pull up short whenever that comma is missing, generally have to reread the sentence before I move on. Totally throws off pacing. When he said in the video that (paraphrase) 'we see it all the time and don't notice it' I was like... no I notice it constantly and it throws me off every time. I'm not saying it's necessary or that reworking sentences isn't the best option, but it does make reading clearer to me, personally, when it's present.

@isaacm6052

9 ай бұрын

Same, I like it for the flow

@Steve_Stowers

8 ай бұрын

THIS! The presence or absence of the comma changes how I hear the sentence in my head. No comma = no pause, which can sound weird.

@LeonardoDaFinchy

8 ай бұрын

It can lead to a 'missing stair' effect in the sentence for me.

@KaiiAyrenNevaeh

8 ай бұрын

And everyone that grew up without it will say that it feels redundant because the "and" is already replacing the pause therefore you don't need one, once again, just a stylistic choice, which doesn't mean it's wrong, just not correct or better either.

Im feeling very vindicated right now. I remember being explicitly taught not to use an oxford comma in primary school because its not necessary and then seeing those annoying memes on Instagram about the eggs, toast and orange juice, and thinking how would there be any ambiguity in that sentence unless people really actually put orange juice on toast in America and talk to it

@mika-ne3qg

9 ай бұрын

The only people who WOULD find these sentences ambiguous are Americans imo 😭 like Yuval said, no other language or even country practices the use of the Oxford comma and never have i seen any confusion when a sentence lacked it...

In Greek, as you said, it's considered a grammar mistake to use a comma before "and". However, the impact of American English in our everyday lives, actually started to make an Oxford comma standard practice.

@JuSan-sq1xk

9 ай бұрын

Same in Italy!

@polenfrej4364

9 ай бұрын

Rather an orthographic mistake.

@safiya1710

9 ай бұрын

@@polenfrej4364 Grammar mistake, I am pretty sure! Orthographic mistakes are vowel-related.

@Hero_My_Beloved

9 ай бұрын

Yea. I've been taught to not use a comma after 'and'. Example: "I have three dogs, George, Maria _and_ Thomas." See what I did there? I didn't use a comma before the 'and'

@safiya1710

9 ай бұрын

@@Hero_My_Beloved Precisely!

As someone who has been a mild proponent of the Oxford comma for many years now, you have convinced me. I think you made some excellent points, and as soon as you brought up the fact that clarity is always better achieved by rephrasing the sentence, I realize that I have actually avoided using by doing exactly that almost every time it would've come up in my own writing, usually because I always feel like it creates really awkward sentence flow. But, I didn't really put it all together until you pointed it out here. Props. Also, I love your Tik-Toks, and it's weird that I found you on each of these platforms completely independently.

As someone who studies Japanese linguistics I don't think there's any real reason for Japanese to have a concept like an Oxford Comma. Strings of conjuncted nouns are not going to have the final "and" in Japanese - it's either no conjunction at all ("ringo, sakana, keiki tabeta" lit. they ate an apple, fish, cake) or a conjunction every time ("ringo-to sakana-to keiki-wo tabeta" lit. they ate an apple and fish and cake). In the writing system, only the first sentence would have commas, which are necessary to show the words are separate items, and all 3 would have them, so in this case the Oxford comma (in a very literal sense of the last comma in a list) is "mandatory". But this is not for ambiguity - there is no alternative to confuse with - this is just how commas are written.

@spkd649

9 ай бұрын

In your first example, I don't think the last comma classifies as an Oxford comma since there is no "and" or "or" after it. The standard way to list items in Japanese is 「ＡやＢ、Ｃ、Ｄなど」 where it also wouldn't apply for the same reason. In official or legal writing, however, the form 「Ａ、Ｂ、Ｃ及びＤ」 seems to be used. Still not sure if you'd call it an "Oxford comma", but in this case, you _can_ say that a comma shouldn't be used between the penultimate item and the conjunction. I got a few hits googling 並列表記（へいれつひょうき） if you're interested.

As a Hebrew native speaker, in which the Oxford comma does not exist, I actually wish it did. It just makes it easier for me to read the sentence correctly on the first try!

Take a drink every time yuval says "Oxford comma"

@Alrexis

9 ай бұрын

I tried to, I couldn't get into the first minute and had to stop

An argument which you didn't include in the video (and to be honest, it's rare that it actually happens) is when one or both of the ending words contain an "and" in them, for example, "Tom and jerry and other cartoons" which would be made clearer when if an Oxford comma is used. But then again, simply restructuring the ordering fixes it without an Oxford.

@hunterketch989

8 ай бұрын

But then sometimes you run into the problem of creating a space where there wouldn’t be one if it was said aloud. “I saw Tom and Jerry, and Pride and Prejudice.” might imply a space that might not actually exist. “I saw ‘Tom and Jerry’ and ‘Pride and Prejudice’.” could be better, but that also has the risk of seeming like the speaker said those words with emphasis.

i have now started a yuval ben-hayun hate blog

I feel like consistent usage of ":" and "( )" will prevent confusion in cases where the oxford comma can create ambiguity. Also, you can't always change the order of a summation, there are situation where the arrangement of a list can matter. There can be a significance to who/what is named last of first. And as mentioned elsewhere in the comments, I think the Oxford comma is quite useful when you're listing variables that already have an "and" within them. But in the end, it's not a big deal of course

@coralbelike9716

9 ай бұрын

tbf in an ordered list, you may not end up using “and” or even commas

@copbabycombo1311

8 ай бұрын

Your second point is entirely irrelevant and if I have to explain why then you need to rewatch the video.

@holaliceanos

29 күн бұрын

@@copbabycombo1311It irritates me how MOST people here are still saying the Oxford comma is the better choice. If you have read enough you should already know why it isn't, and this guy explained it wonderfully.

I usually just like to put commas everywhere. I think hierarchy of information is good in general, and commas are a good way to group things together. I don't get why commas are seen as something to be minimized, like fuel costs in a logistic plan. I mean, sure, you are using a tiny bit of ink to print a comma, but it isn't the 1950s anymore. Additionally, commas being easy to miss becomes an upside here - it is hard for text to become visually _cluttered_ because of them. So, when I think about whether to add a comma here or there, I almost always veer on the side of caution. If you have to sin, don't underdo; overdo. (And yes, that is a weird localization of the Portuguese saying, "ante pecar no exagero do que na falta" - "better to sin in exaggeration than in scarcity".)

@Hollow__Heart

4 ай бұрын

You would like Russian language with the amount of commas we use. And these commas do exactly what you said - group things together. That being said I do like that English doesn't have to use as much commas. Like, English has a much stricter sentence structure which allows to forego grouping parts of the sentence with commas.

I live, laugh, and love the Oxford comma.

The best solution is to put each element of the list on its own line with a trailing delimiter, new line and carriage return. Dealer's choice for tabs or spaces.

Sometimes it is just fun to to watch a video about something I do not care about and have never heard of.

As a Brit, one of the earliest things I remember learning about grammar was not to put a comma next to a connective (or put a connective at the beginning of a sentence). Obviously it's more nuanced than that and there are times for both, especially the latter but still, it's hardly an "always, every time, without exception" type thing, even in American law which still inherits a lot of English law (especially English common law).

Interesting video, and I appreciate the dedication. The problem with no using an oxford comma for me is that the list being separated by commas the whole way, and then the last two item in the list not being separated by the comma, inherently links them. Carrey and a Stripper implies, to me, that they come as a package deal. This is why I always use them, and simply construct my senteces to be unambiguous with them. Where the senteces with oxford commas can be ambiguous sometimes (and are able to handily be rewritten to not be), I personally find that every time one is omitted it always causes confusion, no matter the sentence structure, because it distinguishes the last two items as "glued" together. Feels bad in the ol' brain.

Yo i speak dutch and find not officially having an oxford comma really anyoing, because having it as an option in lists like: "we have made 2 teams of approximately equal strength: Alice and Bob and Charlie" doesn't actually let you know much about who's on what team except that bob's in the team of 2.

@bolt7

8 ай бұрын

Oxford commas are for list 3 items or longer, so adding a comma to yours is technically not an Oxford comma (though it does help clarity).

@misiek_xp4886

7 ай бұрын

That's poorly constructed sentence.

In Indonesian, the Oxford comma is mandatory and not using it would be ungrammatical. We just don't call it "Oxford comma" because it's just a regular comma to us.

@F_A_F123

9 ай бұрын

It wouldn't be ungrammatical. You seem to not understand what grammar is. It would be orthographically wrong (by accepted orthography).

@LigmaMail

9 ай бұрын

@@F_A_F123 Yeah, that's what I meant. He said in the video that using the Oxford comma is considered a mistake in some languages. I was trying to say that the opposite is true Indonesian. I typed my comment when I was pausing at 6:15, so the word "ungrammatical" was the one that came to my mind.

I just write it reflexively at this point. It would be more of a challenge to try and stop myself from using it.

I’ve always believed this but I never knew how to articulate it. Thank you Yuval!!

i like how one of the articles you used has the “eats, shoots and leaves” example when it’s not about the oxford comma at all, but whether “eats” is part of the list (action preceding “shoots and leaves”) or as the verb the object of the sentence does (a panda eats bamboo shoots and leaves) where you don’t need a comma at all. anyway… i will still be using my oxford comma because i can’t imagine not doing so

@koibubbles3302

8 ай бұрын

Yes, I can’t imagine a scenario where you wouldn’t be able to tell that from context

@adrianblake8876

Ай бұрын

It's probably just the name of the book from which the excerpt was taken from...

@bookisland6515

Ай бұрын

@@adrianblake8876i don’t have the time stamp and i wish i could see that part again to know for sure. but yes, there’s a book called eats shoots and leaves. it’s a picture book that i loved as a kid, which is why this example stuck out to me! but like i explained, the distinction made in the book is not “eats, shoots and leaves.” it shows how commas change “eats shoots and leaves,” to “eats, shoots, and leaves.” because of that, it’s not about the oxford comma at all, but just how it’s important to use (or not use) commas in general

Reading anything without an oxford comma jumps out at me and it always has, but I must concede that your points are good

Honestly, with comma being my second favourite punctuation mark, I just find the Oxford comma neat

ive never been so stunned by reason for why something im deeply passionate about isnt actually necessary, but you do make a great point

the way I RAGE CLICKED. I'll update after watching, but I highly doubt you will be able to change my mind of everything I stand for.

Commas indicate a pause. When a person speaks, that person "speaks" the oxford comma because the person pauses. Nobody says "Bob (pause) JoeAndJeff." Everybody says it like "Bob (pause) Joe (pause) and Jeff." That's the main reason to use oxford commas, because they best represent how people speak.

@stijn3085

28 күн бұрын

You don't write a comma every time you pause.

@NotFine

18 күн бұрын

Yeah, that's how I usually use commas lol

As a German speaker, I am quite confident that there are some cases in German where the Oxford comma can be used, while in other cases (most cases) it's incorrect. I don't remember the precise rules, though. However, wherever possible, I do try to use it as it simply seems fancier. 😅

@phscience797

8 ай бұрын

I felt the same, and briefly looked the standard rules up. In the Amtliche Rechtschreibung, using a comma before ‚und‘, ‚oder‘ etc. in enumerations is explicitly prescribed by §72. Pretty sure quite a number of people use it though.

@TimmyBayconn

8 ай бұрын

„Es wird vorgeschrieben, dass wir das tun müssen, und beobachtet, dass es postive Effekte hat“ Korrigiert mich wenn ich falsch liege aber das sollte eigentlich ein korrekter Satz sein.

@phscience797

8 ай бұрын

@@TimmyBayconnDas ist in der Tat ein orthografisch mit der Amtlichen Rechtschreibung konformer Satz. Das Komma vor "und" ist aber kein Komma in Aufzählungen, sondern das schließende Komma des Nebensatzes "dass wir das tun müssen".

@TimmyBayconn

8 ай бұрын

@@phscience797 Jap aber streng genommen ist dort ein Komma vor einem und. Ich weiß, dass das mit dem Nebensatz zusammenhängt, schließlich hab ich das ja absichtlich so kontrsuiert. Ist das nicht eigentlich einfach der erweiterte Infinitiv?

@phscience797

8 ай бұрын

@@TimmyBayconn Ja klar, Komma vor "und" ist keineswegs verboten, und kommt ständig vor. Von einem erweiterten Infinitiv spräche man in der Schulgrammatik meines Wissens nur bei bestimmten Infinitivsätzen mit "zu". Der Infinitiv im Beispiel ("tun") wird ja von "müssen" ausgelöst und würde anders klassifiziert werden. Den Terminus der Schulgrammatik weiß ich gerade nicht, der Duden spricht vom "infinitiven Vollverb in Modalsätzen".

5:58 I am a brazilian, and as far as I know the oxford comma DOES exist in portuguese (at least brazilian portuguese). It just might not be referred by this name, but just like in english you can put a comma before the "&" and it is grammatically correct. I usually do not use it, but sometimes it feels more organized to put it when you are listing a long set of words.

it’s not even about clarity i just need it to be there aesthetically

Hope you start doing more YT videos and get a good amount of your TikTok audience to port over. Wishing you the best Yuval

I'd love to see more videos uploaded on the channel

@YuvalTheTerrible

9 ай бұрын

Me too!

In Australia we are taught it’s incorrect to use a comma at the end of a list because “and” is there

I am an Oxford comma defender, but this is much better argued than 90% of the arguments saying it's unnecessary.

I love how vigilant people are when it comes to defending commas. What an interesting and wholesome thing to defend 😂

@Otome_chan311

8 ай бұрын

It's the shopping cart question for writing. Do you put the comma there, even if you're not required to?

I like using the Oxford comma to punctuate the pause between and and the 2nd last item.

The oxford comma can be useful, and can allow for disambiguity without completely rewriting a sentence. It's not always useful, but it *can* be useful, and moreover, this entire discussion around it helps shed light on the problem of ambiguity in writing and the need for clarity in communication.

@stijn3085

28 күн бұрын

Ambiguity really isn't a problem though

I’ve heard you speak about this on tiktok already but this video was really well done and I watched the whole thing

I like the oxford comma bc i like when what im writing matches how im saying it in my head

I'm just someone who is obscene with my comma usage, i put them wherever I feel there should be a pause and leave them out whenever I feel there shouldn't, grammatically correct or not. Often the pause the Oxford comma gives me feels more natural, and often it doesn't.

Well, my native language is Russian, and I can confirm that there is usually no comma around “и” (which means “and”). If it joins two sentences, such as “I run and you walk,” a comma is required, but if it separates two list entries and if it is singular (not “and so on, and so on”), there should be no comma.

I put the comma if I feel that it reduces ambiguity, and I don’t put it if it increases ambiguity.

Yeh I was confused because In Ireland we were taught that it was actually wrong to use it

I prefer it because it sounds closer to how you would speak a list.

For Turkish, they always thaught us the word "ve" (and) is itself a comma, so it's unnecessary to double it.

Please Yuval, one more video- i can't keep alternating between the two

Why did you have to make such a BANGER list of movies tho??? 27 seconds into the video and you've earned a subscriber

i always used an oxford comma, because one time i accidentally included it in first grade and my friend said "yknow you don't need that, right?" and so, out of spite, i kept doing it. take that, khloe.

I notice it left out all the time in news articles, and it irks me every time. 😅 That being said, I appreciate the video, and it has me reconsidering my strong pro-Oxford comma stance.

in primary school (elementary) i was taught against the oxford comma in britain and that the comma was just incorrect

Omitting the serial comma is like walking around with your shoelaces untied or your fly open.

Thank you. Now I don’t have to argue it, I can just drop a link to this video.

"if you really wanna, leave out the oxford comma, keep in mind that it's okay"

its my emotional support comma

I never thought of the interrupter use of commas as a reason not to use the Oxford comma

In Hungarian we don't put a comma before "and" ( _és_ ) if it is used among parts of sentence with the same role (like listing things), but we do put a comma when "and" divide different clauses like in the following sentence: Bring your flashlight, and don't forget your tent at home.

As a Chinese speaker, i did some quick research. Turns out the Oxford comma is considered incorrect. The punctuation 、 is used in Chinese between elements of a list, and it is not used before connecting words like "and" (和／與） and "or" （或）.

These are very good points. I don't know how I never noticed the fact that all the classic oxford comma examples could be clarified with a minor sentence rewording. It's very true that a comma is easy to miss when reading, so why rely solely on an oxford comma to make your sentences clear.

this is reawakening the primal rage i felt when we first got to the comma lessons in my primary school english classes (im mexican and autistic)

I was taught to use an oxford comma, and it feels weird not to use it.

6:47 Oh, you're my favorite TikTok linguist! I'm glad you're on KZread as well. Great content on both platforms!

This is really well edited

Funnily, in Italian Grammar it actually is a rule to NOT use it before an “and”.

m from britain and we are taught very early on when learning to write that you never put a comma before the word "and". i didnt even know an Oxford comma was a thing before i came across this arguments.

My school taught that there shouldn't be a comma before the "and" with the final item in the list. However, I'm fairly sure that I put one there anyway because the lists always felt so awkward without one (~vibes~). Without it, the pacing of the sentence doesn't match how you read it aloud. And longer lists, especially with a lot of pairs, become so unclear otherwise. "He called Sarah and Jane, Steve and Eve, and even Clair and Derek!" And that list can't just be reordered to solve it. Ampersands could maybe help, or using semi-colons instead, but personally I dislike those options (again, ~vibes~). The whole sentence could probably be reconsidered, but it's the most straight-forward way. I didn't even learn that adding "the Oxford comma" was an actual thing (with a name and everything!) until way later! Clarity doesn't depend on the oxford comma, but the sentence flow certainly suffers without it. Interesting video!

Oh i didnt even know there exist a name for the comma before the "and". Im an italian native and sometimes i put this comma both speaking Italian or Spanish and i always know its so wrong doing it, even classified as a huge grammatical mistake, but somehow i feel more confortable putting that comma, and for sure i didnt know there was a "global concern" about this type of mistake. But i dont think is an "English language" issue cuz literally in every language you might find the same "ambiguity situation" (that its not ambiguous at all taking the grammar into account)

I’m Irish and we were always taught in school not to have a comma before the “and” in a list, like we were told it was wrong

That is a hell of a creative example of the use of an oxford comma and to make a point of not to use it.

i was ready to write a paragraph, but then you said the "it's just vibes" bit and i agree ;) :)

Thank you for adressing my issue in the first 3 seconds. You're so f-ing right about it, im upset.

I am Turkish and in the Turkish language the Oxford comma is a common punctuation error. I was actually surprised when I learned that it had a name and could be used in formal contexts in English. Turkish has a different word order than English though.

as a native Italian speaker, i have always hated the concept of the Oxford comma as it is considered a grammatical error in italian and really never felt the need to use it

Pitchfork music reviewer Mike Powell articulated an explanation very well in his review for Contra by Vampire Weekend (the guys who made the Oxford comma song): "In other words, what if all the products and symbols that gave your life meaning-and status-fell away? What if you replaced the organic toothpaste with Colgate? (Which still 'says something' about you, namely 'I don’t have the time, inclination, or money to give a shit about toothpaste.') Would life still look as rosy? Or, roughly, 'Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma?". (The lyrics he's directly referencing are from the song California English: "Fake Philly cheesesteak but you use real toothpaste/’Cause if that Tom’s don’t work, if it just makes you worse/Would you still lose all of your faith in the good Earth?").

The Oxford comma is more useful when one of the things in the list is multiple things or if the first thing is ambiguous in some trait “I live with my cats, Jacob, and Alexander” is an example because it is both 2 things and ambiguous as to what the cats names are “I’d like to thank my mom, Beyoncé and Jay Z” does not need one because ‘mom’ is singular

I have found this video helpful, important, and enjoyable.

In Italian, the use of commas is much much freer and more expressive than English. I think it's in part due to the fact that Italian word order can be freer than English, so the focus shifts from rules about punctuation to being careful about the intonation you're trying to convey and thinking about pauses. Yes, the Oxford comma would be considered a mistake, but many also put a comma between the subject and the object to denote intonation in some way (which is, of course, a bit controversial). Any language seems to have to deal with some comma-related issue, it seems 😅 As you said, it's ~vibes~

I don’t use the Oxford comma because it always adds clarity; I use it because I like using lots of comma

I just use the Oxford comma to convey the inflection of the sentence. It isn’t necessary, yes, it can cause ambiguity, yes, but, I just used an oxfords comma. Before the ‘but’. Or did I? One could argue that was a parenthetical comma around the ‘yes’. But what about the comma after ’but’? Not at all necessary, some might consider it incorrect grammar, but it conveyed a pause in the desired location.

if i pronounce it with an oxford comma, I'll use an oxford comma when writing

i wouldnt've really pointed the lack of an oxford comma out in someones writing, but i never did consider how it could itself create ambiguity. im a descriptivist myself, i dont think annything in language is "correct" or "incorrect", as long as communication is maintained. if you need to break grammatical "rules" to communicate sometimes, then that "breaking" just becomes a part of how the language is used in the everyday. basically: language is language, do whatever bloody feels right, dont be an ass to others who do otherwise

Actually, in French, we use it, at least on the Swiss side. I started to use the Oxford comma because I learned to use it in Switzerland, but only in French. I speak Portuguese too and in my years in Brazilian school, I've never used it because I look at the "and" as the comma for the two last elements of a list. It makes more sense to me.

I did elementary school in a spanish speaking country and I remember being thought that it was grammatically incorrect to add a conna before the and, but as I started interacting with english speaking world this became very ambitious to me, and I didn't know that it wasn't incorrect in English, but I still used it just because *~vibes~*

Perhaps the legal case sentence could have also included a gerund, but I still can't think of a way to guarantee that meaning unless you use it. For the oxford commas mistaken as an appositive you could just use a relative clause to guarantee meaning of an appositive, and assume a list otherwise.

"A and B or C and D or E and F" ^^ Every valid insert of one or more commas (with or without deletion of the distirbutive conjunction) changes the meaning of this proposition.

When I write lists, I’ve started to omit “and” entirely and exclusively use commas, because separating the last item of a list arbitrarily feels wrong to me.

i use it because it mimics how i'd pause in normal speech

There was a case in Hungary that was decided by a comma recently. It's a fairly backwards country where they made up a law that books that mention homosexuality must be kept wrapped up in stores and separated from the rest of the books and a book store got fined for not keeping some books wrapped up. The law said "a termék a többi terméktől elkülönítve csak zárt csomagolásban forgalmazható", which was meant to say that "the product must be separated from other products and kept in sealed packaging", but they that it should have a comma like "a termék a többi terméktől elkülönítve, csak zárt csomagolásban forgalmazható", because otherwise it means something like "if the product is separated from other products, it must be kept in sealed packaging". I'm not sure if this counts as similar to the oxford comma, I think in Hungarian a comma, and in speech a pause, can stand for "and" and I'm not sure if that works in English too.

amen!! in my language, not using the oxford comma is the standard. i'm always quite frustrated when English writing programmes mark not using it as a mistake

I do think you need to have a standard. because for transcriptionist, stenographers, and closed captioners, changing how people speak isn't an option, and especially transcriptionist and stenographers they have to remain consistent in their use of grammar for constancy

nit: 6:25 '한국인' says "Korean person" instead of '한국어' ('Korean language')

@charlotteathena

9 ай бұрын

i'm done with the video now though . i really like long-form-yuval. this was fun

@charlotteathena

9 ай бұрын

oh and chinese also says 'chinese person' instead of 'chinese language'. japanese is right though

@YuvalTheTerrible

9 ай бұрын

Thank you for catching this!!

@steffahn

9 ай бұрын

Haha, English being English and being ambiguous. And that in a video heavily featuring ambiguities. "Korean" or "Chinese" can mean either the people or the language.

RESPECT THE OXFORD COMMA

very glad for that final caveat bc vibes is my whole meter when it comes to writing and i don’t give one flying fuck about objective usefulness when my own opinions are much more fun

My eyes have been opened

Hi Yuval. Here from Tiktok… Subscribed and looking forward to “no such thing as the world’s hardest language”. Hope KZread treats you better 🤍

Having learned English as a second language, I adopted the Oxford comma when I was taught it, but when I first started writing, and for years, I never knew it was a thing, so I didn't use the Oxford comma for years until someone 'corrected' me. I use it without thinking about it, but I do not go out of my way to check if I have missed it; I use it when it comes to me, as you said. And yes, it's an English-only thing.