14:30 this has absolutely nothing to do with FFXIV or WoW or even video games, but I appreciate that Kyle pauses for Garrett just out of courtesy in case he had something to say from the little gesture he made. something super wholesome about that

@Daydricoldsmith

Ай бұрын

Pleasent seeing you here.

@elends2302

Ай бұрын

Right? Aside from that-- Hey, man! Hope you're doing alright!

@Demonboy007

Ай бұрын

/salute May you walk in the light of Based.

@GrimViridian

26 күн бұрын

Glad to see you jocat! Hope you're doing well!

@safarfsaf

22 күн бұрын

Thanks for making videos and hope your day is going well mr. Jocat!

How did I miss this?! Thank you again boys 😊

@Lordoftheapes79

Ай бұрын

You rule Jesse!

@msaag5490

Ай бұрын

The GG duo could finally watch the Cox Meister's video after all these months.

My favorite "describe this thing poorly but accurately" for Endwalker that ive come up with so far is, "World's first PETA activist creates _Voyager-1_ in the form of a furry child, accidentally discovers the Fermi Paradox"

@TarossBlackburn

Ай бұрын

- and gets really REALLY sad about it.

@Keira_Blackstone

Ай бұрын

Ngl, Hermes really was the last push I needed to finally follow my convictions and go vegan.

@herpderp9108

Ай бұрын

You’re now going to set into motion the events that will lead to the end of the universe. How dare you.

@ryanjones2297

Ай бұрын

I always just described it as "Emo twitter tries to cancel everyone"

@Bluelyre

Ай бұрын

​@@ryanjones2297 'world's first vegan creates Twitter, accidently accelerates entropy. '

my favorite factoid about FFXIV vs WoW is that the Jailer only says a grand total of 429 words from the moment he's introduced to when he dies, whereas Emet Selch says 729 words just in the two cutscenes he's in before Shadowbringers even starts.

@beurtalvarez

Ай бұрын

to be fair FF14 is a much more verbose game than WoW is, but I get the point

@Highstar25

Ай бұрын

@@beurtalvarez even if you include the shadowlands novels and short stories, the jailor says like two whole lines to sylvanas lol.

@msaag5490

Ай бұрын

Wow, that's actually kind of nuts. I know Emet can get dramatic and theatrical, so his numbers get inflated but even so. The Jailor basically said nothing for an entire expansion.

@starjun8144

Ай бұрын

thats because FF14's writing is dogshit, and takes 500 words for something that can be said in 50. And dont sit here pretending that the meteion asspull was a better villain than the J'lor asspull villain, because it isnt, they're equally retarded.

@Soress9

Ай бұрын

and how many of Jailers lines were foolish mortal

That dungeon with the missile launch was just so good. That one soldier that made it to the missiles and fired joyfully saying "I did it! I killed them all!" then what he did actually hitting him and saying "I...killed them all..."

@206Zelda

Ай бұрын

The Dead Ends were truly something

@dalgona4819

Ай бұрын

@@206Zelda still traumatizes me to this day ngl

EW did more in one dungeon--the Aitiascope--than Shadowlands did in the whole expansion. SHADOWLANDS COULD HAVE BEEN SO GOOD!🤬 They could have shown Saurfang reuniting with his son in the afterlife. They could have had Thrall meeting Orgrim Doomhammer and having to explain what has become of the Horde. They could have given Baine something to do with Cairne, instead of leaving him sitting in a corner all expansion. So many missed opportunities that were staring them right in the face, and those examples were just the Horde!😩

@siriusnut36

Ай бұрын

They had that dead man walk past Anduin and LOOK at him...they could have had Varien Wrynn tell his son he was proud of him! Variens death was such a crappy one too for such an epic and strong character. Jaina's father could have slapped her for being such a...messy all over the place confusing as hell character leading up to Shadowlands, there were so many things they could have done but instead they pushed this bland, dull, boring lackluster story that...ugh...there is no putting into words how terrible World of Warcrafts story telling has become.

@PregnantOrc

Ай бұрын

Going to the afterlife and seeing Garrosh meets his heroes, his ancestors (or rather his image of them) that he wanted to emulate and based his life on could have carried an expansion on its own. That's one character. So much potential. Saurfang and Garrosh being judged by them and in turn judging each other would have been sweet. They each both embody and fail both as the Horde and orcs but in different ways. Sure it would have been orc heavy but as it add a B story or a thematically echoing Alliance story and we would have a sweet time

@zenixvampirchik652

Ай бұрын

@@PregnantOrc It's kinda funny... They used (somewhat cheap) afterlife plane card that fantasy stories sometimes use. But like didn't use any of the strong points of that card. Judgement of living by the dead. Words of advice. Beating the shit out of living for dumb descicions, sharing experiences, etc. How some charcters changed over time in the afterlife, their thoughts on their own life and achivements (or fuck ups). And we got what? Uther arc? That's it? We essentially saw Uther's development and shit, plus Anduin's build up for PTSD and depression. That's it. Everything else was fucked up or not present at all. So many characters could've gotten some closer with lost ones. Arthas and Garrosh's ending even for fucks sake...

The Endsinger fight is so beautiful that watching you two listen to Jesse's explanation of it ALSO made me cry a little.

@mierkablue

Ай бұрын

yeah, I'm watching the video and suddenly tears

@bainbonic

Ай бұрын

My friend and I once found a person complaining that we went through the entire story "just to hold a little girl's hand," and our reaction was "YES, that's the point!" That random quote has become our go-to for discussing why the story works.

The rant about Arthas being the best final boss of a wow expansion still to this day hits home. My group was the first in our guild to kill Arthas (we had 12, TWELVE ACTIVE raiding groups 8 10 mans and 4 25 mans) all racing for first kill. The fact that we got it actually caused the guild to implode because the officers/leader group were unable to raid that night due to missing people and we were down a tank so they lent us a new undergeared tank from their raid figuring we would get some good prog and then they would take our best healer/dps and clear it the next day. Except we cleared it that night in 2 shots. The officer group was so pissed they all left the guild without even a grats. The leader was left with none of his assistants so he quit and the guild collapsed over the next few weeks. Our raid team stuck together and we cleared all difficulties in Cata before breaking up

@LC-sc3en

Ай бұрын

Wow what a bunch of as hats

Blizzard: of course people didn’t like the jailer, we only had one expansion to flesh him out. FF14: here is Emet Selch in Shadowbringers or Endsinger in Endwalker…

@msaag5490

Ай бұрын

Hermes/Amon too. I like how they showed us the end result of what Hermes would become with Fandaniel Amon, then we get to see why he ended up as Amon by visiting Hermes Fandaniel in Elpis.

@iantaakalla8180

Ай бұрын

Considering that Amon existed back in Syrcus Tower, part of the acclaimed Crystal Tower/FF3 endgame raid series, and that so much has been done with Amon/Fandaniel/Hermes in Endwalker, truly the phrase “The marvels of Syrcus were but playthings” applies here.

@FoxBatinaHat

Ай бұрын

Emet Swech was hinted at and introduced in Stormblood fyi.

@FishSkeleton-

Ай бұрын

​@FoxBatinaHat If we want to play technicality lawyer then the Emperor's been known about and eluded to since 1.0. Emet as we know him wasn't introduced until Shadowbringers and we all know it.

@KironX1

Ай бұрын

@@FoxBatinaHatin the post game patches yes but barely a footnote.

Something that I think Jesse missed: One of the reason the Endsinger works is that we don't fight her because we hate her. We fight to save Meteion just as much as everyone else we want to save. Or, to mangle a classic anime quote: "You're approaching me?" "I can't hug the shit out of you without getting closer."

@msaag5490

29 күн бұрын

I think Jesse's point still stands especially if he's trying to convince WoW players, the ones who didn't care for the spoiler warning, to give FF14 a shot. If he gave a more detailed and accurate depiction of how we felt about Meteion and the Endsinger it could look like him rubbing it in the WoW players' face. It feels like he's trying to sell it as, "you COULD be invested in the Endsinger as a final story boss like I did if you play the game." I mean, I could also be horribly wrong and Jesse just has an odd view on how he thinks about the Endsinger.

I started playing FFXIV with the pre-release of Stormblood, so my very first max-level, end-of-current-expansion trial was Shinryu. And getting to the Endsinger, riding in ON SHINRYU with the majestic fanfare of Shinryu's second phase to start the boss music medley!? I still get chills, because that was literally full-circle for me. It just felt perfect.

WOW: You're lucky to be here. Ff14: We're lucky you're here.

@kainnak

Ай бұрын

That sums up WoW in general, the writers never seem to acknowledge the players are even there.

@Endoken

Ай бұрын

@@kainnak It's because for nearly 20 years the storyline for WoW has been a DLC. And that's what people don't seem to get. The story in the game is beyond garbage. It's not even something that matters even when you read anything. To really get a storyline that doesn't suck you have to get the books - thus the storyline is DLC. And then you add in a lack of an overall story (we basically get like... Bleach, a few good episodes amongst a bunch of filler garbage where there's kind of an overall story... but... not really.) It's something I hope War Within actually fixes, but I doubt it sadly.

@1shogunate696

Ай бұрын

@@kainnak it’s funny because you’re constantly referred to as “champion” or “the champion” in WoW.

@1shogunate696

Ай бұрын

@@Endoken except bleach had A lot of good filler, at least imo 😅

@Ephelle

Ай бұрын

Like I always say, in Final Fantasy XIV, the story happens to you. In WoW, you happen to the story.

Endsinger theme being "our" theme song is just so perfect ❤️. Beautifully put by Jesse love this video.

@JamieBarrington

Ай бұрын

Hearing our own boss music in Endsinger's final phase was iconic!

I love how in the Endsinger boss theme, Zenos pushes his theme forward, and only after that come all the other boss themes in order, the effin sociopathic best frenemy that he is.

@banriswirl6414

Ай бұрын

The coolest part about the Endsinger song... It isn't Endsinger's theme. It's ours. It's the song of our defiance against every doom that has stood before it's so far. We hear the mashed up themes of everyone we've already crushed because Endsinger is hearing our boss music. She's just one more doom for us to defy.

@the_dark_soul_of_man

Ай бұрын

@@banriswirl6414 true true, that's a great interpretation. But either way it's funny that Zenos' theme comes first XD

One thing about FFXIV’s narrative structure that veterans should be familiar with by now is that there’s always a pivot from an A-Plot to a B-Plot. It usually also involves a shift to a different antagonist. It's not so much that there's "something worse to come" but more like "there's something else to deal with". The previous B-Plot antagonists were Gaius, Thordan, Yotsuyu, Emet and finally Meteion. For Dawntrail I fully expect the same trope to be used. We know the A-Plot because it’s always the one that is more widely covered in-game or in pre-release media: There’s a challenge for the throne in Tuliyollal with one of the contenders seemingly the antagonist. That will almost certainly not be the entire story and I expect there will be a pivot to a B-Plot. Some people are speculating the B-Plot will involve Solution 9 and the northern half of Tural since that location looks so weird and exotic that it's ripe for having some kind of story arc of its own, like the Far East during Stormblood. Also from a game dev standpoint, the A/B split in the plot allows for material that can be marketed during pre-release, while also keeping a chunk of secret stuff to surprise the players in the latter half of the MSQ, such as the “final 6th zone” in every expansion where your last dungeon and 8-man trial takes place. BTW for those who dont know there is always a very tiny sneak peek of the final 6th zone in the Launch Trailer, but it's usually from some inconspicuous camera angle or shown very briefly to avoid spoilers (eg. ShB launch trailer shows amaurot at 2:36)

@msaag5490

Ай бұрын

So far, the use of the A-plot B-plot structure is still working wonders and hasn't really failed us so far. Warriors of Darkness was true B-plot tier story in Heavensward patch content until Ishikawa said "Nah, they A-plot material" then she and the team delivered one of the greatest single expansion MMORPG stories ever.

@iantaakalla8180

Ай бұрын

That Warriors of Darkness stuff was literally just one patch thing (and a few hints beforehand). It is neat to see how they have become the main draw

@XieRH1988

Ай бұрын

@@iantaakalla8180 I think considering ShB took place in the First shard, seeing the warriors of darkness have some involvement again would not have been too surprising as it is their home world. I'm actually more impressed with G'raha and the Crystal Tower being incorporated into the plot. The story would have been way easier to write had the Exarch simply been a person of Norvrandt who called out to other shards seeking people to save their world. The only real value of having it be G'Raha was that he was someone who personally knew the WoL, which is huge fuel for interpersonal relationship development, but it comes with the cost of having to invent some funky timeline/dimension/etc stuff to shoehorn G'raha and the Crystal Tower into Norvrandt. Similar thing happened in Endwalker with more funky timeline stuff to get the already-dead Emet to show up in the MSQ for an entire mini arc.

@shaicat

Ай бұрын

@@XieRH1988 but that funky timeline/dimension stuff was actually really well done since they already had elements of time travel in Alexander and dimensional manipulation in Omega so utilizing the two made perfect sense. And with the crystal tower already being established to be a massive aether battery, it being able to provide the power needed to utilize those two things also slotted in nicely. The only real goofy stretch they made was "time flows differently on the shards than it does on the source, but for the time being they're aligned because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

@Ladywizard

Ай бұрын

@@XieRH1988 which is one reason hope we get long talk with the blue mage origin tribe while we're in "new world"

XIV also plants seeds that they don't immediately use. 2.X Doma storyline sets up the Far East part of Stormblood 2 expansions later. Warriors of Darkness set-up Shadowbringers 2 expansions later. Now the 6.X series sets up something beyond Dawntrail. It's more.. how you do it.

Endsinger: "You asked why we carry on. We will give you our Answers." Jailer: "Im a robot."

@msaag5490

29 күн бұрын

Beep boop, I am death. Fear me mortals. - The Jailor, probably

I think Garrett's triggering feelings for Shadowlands is because Endwalker ended so well and so triumphantly good that it raised the ceiling and bar so high for MMO stories for him. So when he looks back to Shadowlands it's just an even more disgustingly disappointing thing. That's probably before we add in his distaste for what they did to Arthas, Garrett's favorite Blizzard villain.

@Reshapable

Ай бұрын

I can't say what is or isn't the case for him. I can only say EW is completely unnecessary to feel that way about SL. It's immensely hateable all on it's own.

@msaag5490

Ай бұрын

@@Reshapable Fair. It is pretty crass of me to guess what he thinks or feels. It just seemed that way based on how he his tone changed slightly before and after Endwalker's 6.0 ending. Garrett never hid his displeasure of Shadowlands, especially with regards to Blizzard's treatment of Arthas.

@inkblotCrisis

Ай бұрын

Turned Arthas into 15 Anima.

@CybersteelEx

Ай бұрын

blueballs

@SparkShadow212

Ай бұрын

​@@Reshapable That is true, but it hurts more to see your favourite game ended their story so poorly when other games did it so well. Like the ending of SL was the cut that opens up the wound, then other games or expansions that can stick the landing properly is the salt.

The lesson is simple - be the badass that Zenos knows you to be.

i think the lasts quests of the heavensward's bard class questline foreshadow a lot of elpis and the endsinger, the whole questline in heavensward was about searching an ancient lost minuet of the song of oblivion, with research it throws directions to the sea of clouds which was also foreshadow as an elpis fragment after the hydaelyn's strike, so there you have it, the song of oblivion in elpis? the song of oblivion in the sea of clouds, both in floating lands, pretty cool, the cool sht is that the minuet was never found, i can't remember tho, i did the quest like SEVERAL years ago. Besides being a bard's quest makes a lot of sense, since emotions dictate reality in a place filled with dynamis, you can't manipulate your own feelings without a factor, unless you add a catalyst such as music, ngl i think bard should be more op than it is, but i think The staff stopped working hard on making sense of the classes, i was very dissapointed that there were no significant power ups after we come to know that we are a fragment of azeem.

@madcap830

Ай бұрын

The dancer questline also forshadows this. Traveling around the world to perform and draw out the negative emotions within people that then take the form of monsters you have to destroy.

@Shiraiame

Ай бұрын

I haven't done the Bard quests since right after Heavensward released, and I had completely forgotten we were looking for the song of oblivion. That is such an amazing connection!

@8BitCerberus

Ай бұрын

@@madcap830 I just recently brought DNC up to 90 and while I was doing the EW role quests I kept thinking how much this would have connected with the DNC job quests. Like as a DNC it fit so perfect, but someone doing the same quests as BRD or MCH I don't think the connection would have resonated nearly the same, you'd just be fighting another blaspheme. I do like the role quests because I think it gives them space to flesh out a bigger story, but I also hope they bring back the job quests again for DT, to some extent at least. Maybe one at X5 and one at X0 (or X00 now with DT) just to be able to check in with everyone from time to time.

@Ladywizard

Ай бұрын

@@8BitCerberus I was so disappointed that they didn't go oh you're an apprentice of whatever the dancer teacher's name was or see her since she's taken a step back for her new star

@Inhaledcorn

Ай бұрын

And, funny thing: the final boss of the HW Bard quests is a bird lady!

I'm glad it was mentioned, because I think what FF14 does well is that, even if they set up things for the future, they still give you an ENDING to the current arc. It doesn't matter if those characters are going to come back in an expansion or two, or that a plot thread may be carried over, it actually feels like we get a satisfying end to that part of the story. But with WoW it feels like we just get teased and baited with cliffhangers and it just doesn't feel...satisfying to wait another 2 years or more (like the sword) just to get a conclusion.

@p712ynj0kl

Ай бұрын

That's called edging

16:26 worked so well, because it was a realization that 'Oh no.. we MESSED UP. We messed up BAD! We did our WoL thing and may have just DOOMED our world.. UH OH.' It hit me so hard when I got to that point. And then we actually see it play out.. We see our world burn before us and in a terrifying twist of Hominster Switch.. We're just trying to save anyone we can.

Shadowbringers also kind of did it with Vauthry and Emet Selch, except Emet Selch wasn't exactly a secret. Mt Gulg was also a very definitely final dungeon

@FishSkeleton-

Ай бұрын

Sort of, but Amaurot was the real final dungeon of 5.0 and did that way better imo. Fighting through the literal apocalypse and in the end looking down from space upon the world aflame? *chef's kiss*

@FF-tp7qs

Ай бұрын

@@FishSkeleton- GG even thought they would end up fighting Emet Selch in patch content.

When I ran out of things to do in WoW, I just quietly uninstalled and moved on. When I ran out of things to do in FF14 I stuck around, although at only half capacity. Because I just can't wait for the next part of the story. Can't wait to see the characters I like so much again. You just can't underestimate how much value there is in a good story and personal investment. WoW is just one example, I can say the same things about Guild Wars 2, Path of Exile, Elder Scrolls Online. I like the people that I spent a lot of time with in those games, but eventually that's not enough to keep me around.

It's okay, Garrett, there's a lot of us out there that still get twitchy anytime we see Shadowlands stuff

Jessie’s point about it being about the player reminded me about how that final fight conversation with Zenos goes. He directly asks the player, yeah you are the good guy, but answer me not as the hero or adventurer (your character) but as simply you (the player). From that moment on it’s not warrior of light vs zenos but you the player vs Zenos. Even that last tibit post fight dialogue was aimed at you the player. God it was so good.

@Keira_Blackstone

Ай бұрын

It works either way. It's not a full fourth wall break. It's just a conversation that can be taken either way. For me, it worked very well in the universe because it fully exposed him as the massive narcissist he is. He was dead wrong on what motivates my WoL- all his imagining himself as my mirror was complete bullshit, but the only way he's capable of relating to anyone else is by imagining they're just like him.

I believe in lizardman superiority, Garret. Warhammer needs to accept The Old One's true children.

They did my boy Arthas so dirty in Shadowlands... Shadowlands was terrible, and the fact that in the lead up to 10.2 they began saying "It's the end of a ten year arc!" To coattail off of Endwalker? It's was abysmal.

@msaag5490

Ай бұрын

Oh yeah was Shadowlands, prior to or during the 10.1 patch, ever set up to be a conclusion the same way Endwalker was? Was there any hints to the Jailor being the ultimate big bad for the 20+ years of WC3 to WoW Shadowlands?

@nexmeles8023

Ай бұрын

@msaag5490 Not that I am aware of! I played through the base 10.0 and there's really nothing there outside of he actually made the helm of domination and other massive retcons. AFAIK the only honest mention of it being the culmination of a story arc that began in WC3 was after Endwalker started it's fanfest tours and announcements.

@msaag5490

Ай бұрын

@@nexmeles8023 Dang, then yeah it definitely was trying to ride off the coattails of Endwalker. Unfortunately they can't steal an actual good story without having a good story themselves that set it up properly.

@nexmeles8023

Ай бұрын

@msaag5490 They used to be a bit of an industry standard in that... I think Mists was really the last great on, and it kind of tanked from there. I was really invested in both WoW and FF for years, Warlords burned me, and I never recovered. I hope War within proves to be a return to form, and I hope Dawntrail keeps FF's momentum strong.

@UltimaKeyMaster

Ай бұрын

There are a lot of things around that point that you can say Blizzard was doing Blizzard things in trying to copy other games, at least towards the launch of Dragonflight. Suddenly going "UHHHHH THIS IS THE END OF OUR ARC TOO" was the absolute lowest outright plagiarism I've seen them commit. Nothing about Shadowlands said it was anything more than going into an afterlife realm and fucking with Sylvanas and her boss. And they wanna pull this legacy shit because...Arthas is just meandering about here? No matter how War Within turns out, I'm at least glad they learned the value of TRYING to SET UP a story from the beginning this time, even if I think they're insanely over-shooting the moon saying this is over three expansions, but I'll take a bold new step instead of marketing plagiarism. When Blizzard copies something, I expect it to be iterated on, not word-for-word Sparknoted.

Yeeeeep. That's my reaction too, garrett whenever someone brings up Shadowlands

I have to say, one of the most impactful moments of Endwalker for me was when EVERYONE you have interacted with in side content shows up to help. Every NPC from every raid and all the other things you did on the side during your journey. Everyone is there to lend a hand after you send out a call for aid. I'm tearing up a bit just thinking about it.

Grandpa Yoshi P: We care about you and your enjoyment. Blizzard: WE. DO. NOT. CARE! Give us more of your money!

27:06 tbh, i felt zenos' resurrection was a complete asspull, but ill forgive it because this scene is worth it.

Fan service is only bad if that's the only thing you have to offer.

That moment with Anduin meant nothing to me, I did not play Alliance, I had no idea what that sword meant.

NGL, Zenos popping in and just going "Just kill it bro lmao" made me laugh. And I was crying throughout that final part of Endwalker, so his presence was actually an unexpected but welcome one.

TBH, Solus was mentioned in passing late post ARR (his "death" n Varis' win as Emperor) before his official intro in Stormblood n the "song of despair" & despair is mention in BRD n DNC job quest.

Just a side note, FFXIV does actually do the same thing of teasing storylines two expansions ahead. For example, we meet Yugiri in the ARR patch content, but her story isn't central until Stormblood. Similarly, we meet the Warriors of Darkness in Heavensward, but their story isn't central until Shadowbringers. I anticipate Zero being very important to the xpac AFTER Dawntrail.

I still want to know why ripping the Helm of Domination in half was part of the Jailer's plan, when he made it to have an agent on Azeroth. Was he screaming "break it break it break it" to Arthas and Bolvar for years and they just ignored it? Seems to me they thought up that cutscene first and didn't care about how it did or didn't fit into the story later.

@Martin_Straka.

Ай бұрын

that question was answered, as we know, helm of dominance and frostmourne, were tools to get agent of death in Azeroth, his mission was to kill as many people as possible, but Arthas was holding all undead, ghouls, frostwyrms at bay at Northrend, with his last shred of humanity, he was actually fighting with the Jailor, thats why Jailor tortured Ner'zhul, because he failed. That is how we get the saying "There must be always the Lich King" and Bolvar knew it. Basically Jailor made the better agent later, Sylvanas, who broke all in war. When she burned Darnasuss , Zoval - the Jailor got enough dead ppl and he could continue with next step of the plan.

@FishSkeleton-

Ай бұрын

@@Martin_Straka. I still don't get how that could have tied into Arthas or Bolvar breaking the Helm.

Except we knew who Endsinger was. yea she wasnt around for a large chunk of the expansion, but we knew where she came from and knew about her well before we found her and defeated her. on top of that, we received hints since at least Shadowbringers, that something was causing doom and despair to destroy worlds and while they didnt straight up say it was her doing it..there were clues that some entity was causing it. so it isnt like Endsinger was 100% completely secret or hidden. just not fully revealed until the later half of EW

@msaag5490

Ай бұрын

We also got the big hint that Zodiark, the supposed big bad of FF14, was actually created to stop the Final Days. So it pretty much was setup in Shadowbringers that "other worse villain/apocalypse" exists and is out there. Like you said, we just didn't get a name to it until the latter half of Endwalker.

@peterfarmer1649

Ай бұрын

I mean, unless I am really mis-remembering things, a big bad theorized back in shadowbringers would of been just as likely as the 'final days' being a natural event of the planets existence that either naturally occurred or was accidently sped up through accidental means - especially considering ancient creation magics were affected, it made it seem more like something broke in the natural order, rather than a big bad intentially doing things - even if a big bad in the end DID break things intentionally, I don't think it was pre-ordained to be as such. Saying this mostly because its been so long since it came out that I can't remember wider community opinion, but my small group were certain that endwalker ended on the moon after defeating zodiark, Fandaniel, Zenos, and that our defeat of zodiark meant that the next '10 year saga' was going to be about preventing this natural occurrence of the planet with hydaelyn's help. Not to say I'm not happier with the final outcome, but based on what I can vaguely remember from such a long time ago, I at least can't remember a 'secret' big bad that wasn't just fandaniel all along being behind the final days being theorised in Shadowbringers widely.

@jmstover

Ай бұрын

@@peterfarmer1649 More or less... but the "Natural Occurrence" would have been the big bad. There was just "something" that Zodiark was summoned to be a band-aid to. The Ancients didn't know what the source of the noise was, so.... But, at the time of Shadowbringers writing they were dropping in clues/threads for the next expansion (or future), so yes... it was 100% something to be used later on. When I first heard the explanation, my mind went with the "Your creation magics broke the natural order" route initially, not something external causing it.

@UltimaKeyMaster

Ай бұрын

It's more so "from the outside looking in" opinions of WoW fans looking at Endwalker and FF14 fans looking at Shadowlands. FF14 is nuanced enough in its story to actually build things up, even if something feels like a Kojima-level twist like the early Zodiark fight was. WoW wants you to Speed Racer to max level not giving a fuck about literally anything you're doing only to have real story content *in the raids* by which point you're asking "who the fuck are all you people and why are you taking up my screentime?"

@remigyfgrin8830

Ай бұрын

Yeah, I remember talking to some friends around the release of 5.3 and calling that the final boss of the next expansion was going to be whatever made the keening sound that started the final days. I totally thought Zodiark was going to be the penultimate fight though, not the first, so that was still a great surprise.

Morning! Thanks for the wonderful clip! o/

I think one of my biggest gripes with WoW compared to FFXIV is how the story is told. In FFXIV we are told everything that we are needed to know in the game as well as seeing it in the game. We experience it ourselves and with our characters but we're also not getting pulled along because of the "right thing to do" trope. With WoW on the other hand, we're only shown half of the story in the game and are required to buy novel after novel of Warcraft books just to be able to understand what the hell is going on. And then the stuff we ARE told in game is either explained horribly or completely contradicts what happens in the last expansion because we're having to deal with new writers every expansion.

The endsinger/meteion DIDN'T just come out of nowhere. The final days,which is what caused the convocation to create Zodiark was introduced in Shadowbringers. And the Endsinger Caused the final days

Bellular and T&E when they were spitballing how Shadowlands could have been better... If either of those had been true I would still be playing. Their ideas for the story arc were a thousand times better.

people cared more for meteion in the short time we learned about her then all of Shadowlands for the jailor

48:31 - I can imagine if FFXIV's raids were bigger narrative or included zones a little more between the duties it'd give that effect. Hoping Dawntrail plays with their co-op content more.

37:14 If I recall, Tyrion do get the final blow on the Lich King in that fight, he is frozen, and then screams something about light give me strength, then either jumps or throws his sword at Arthas, it's been a while, so I might misremember

@rageofheaven

Ай бұрын

No, what he did was break Frostmourne after Arthas one shotted the raid.

@lowpinglag

Ай бұрын

@@rageofheaven Thank you

The fact they could have included Anduin's mother( a character that we don't know but would have been a shining example of a light that was snuffed out before it's time) in the cutscene with Varian but didn't is a shame.

I think Blizzard is going to forget the Jailer ever existed and the bigger bad he was protecting the world from is never going to show up. 😆

13:11 Jesse notably pointing out a serpent thing at Blizzcon 2011 and it still hasn't been answered because "rule of cool" handwaving is such a disappointing answer.

Any story WoW had, was at best, just the cliff-notes from the thousands of books and comics out there that Blizzard just pointed at and said "Yep, that's canon." That's my reason for not really giving a shit about the characters. Not to mention the endless grind just to unlock even a fraction of the story, only to hit another grind for the next chunk of story. Then you have FF14, where the only walls blocking the story, is 1 or 2 levels or just a slightly too low item level. WoW is like scaling the Great Wall of China, whereas FF14 is like a fence with a locked gate and the key is hidden under a rock right next to the gate.

@UltimaKeyMaster

Ай бұрын

And the only thing between you and the key is a pink "searching..." bar that might take one second, three seconds or if Yoshi-P was feeling particularly cheeky, twenty.

Man imagine if in Shadowlands you met the character of that guy who you used to raid with around 2009 but who's been offline on your friends list for the past 9 years.

the final zone was.. SOMETHING certainly not amplified by my own stupidity of doing it in one session starting at 6pm... and as i i remember it right.. my credits finished at 9 am it was both a blast of hyperfixation, fun and emotional exhaustion 10/10 would do again tho

I think one of the big reasons why the Arthas fight is so fondly remembered compared to other raid bosses in WoW is that it was one of the few times (maybe even the only one) where it is personal for everyone involved. We've met Arthas several times the leveling zones and he acknowledges us, personally, even before the reveal that he was basically grooming us to be his new set of generals. Even the fact that Tirion does the most important thing of the fight (shattering frostmorne) doesn't take away from this, since its still as much our fight as Tirions and we get to be the ones finishing Arthas off. Contrast to most other larger raid bosses, to thom we are mostly just a faceless blob that bursts down their door one random day and that only serves to play with the boss a bit so someone actually important has the time/opportunity to do something story relevant (everything involving Thrall usually being the worst examples of this).

the way jessie has explained this is just beautifully, you can tell he really understood the gravity of it all. His videos will stay stronger even after Dawntrail.

22:52 "I see shadowlands as a coward's story" That may be true. But I think it has more to do with the modern disdain for "fan-service" that most people from some lit. crit or other humanities degree might have and spread on social media. "Ugh, that's just fan-service. That's not ~real~ art."

@msaag5490

Ай бұрын

I mean, it depends on what version of fan service we're talking about right? There's horny fan service which is whatever. There's the fan service Shadowlands could have done which was doing cool afterlife stuff with the cool characters who died. And there's just fan service in the form of payoffs, maybe a cool character moment, some epic story moment, etc etc.

@idleeidolon

Ай бұрын

@@msaag5490 A lot of twitter minded people use terms carelessly. Based, Cringe, etc. Everything negative is cringe now, even if you didn't experience secondhand embarrassment. "Fan-service" is used so poorly by would be internet critics, they don't specify what they mean by it. That said, there is nothing wrong with entertaining your target audience. Yes... sexy characters included, male OR female. This is the reason we have obligatory shirtless scenes for male MCU characters. Nothing wrong with that. It's an issue when it's nothing BUT that, and there's not much else, like say story, etc. It's the same issue with tropes. So many critics shut down the moment they smell even a hint of a trope in a piece of media, and shut down and become closed to the idea that the media might be good.

@msaag5490

Ай бұрын

​@@idleeidolon Ah twitter/X minded people. Okay I see where you're coming from the original comment. I don't use twitter, that's kinda why I specified the different kinds of fan service cause as you acknowledged there are other types.

@LC-sc3en

Ай бұрын

Yeah not all fan service is the bad kind. But the term used to be short hand for putting things in lazily solely because fans want it and not even bothering to make it make sense in terms of story, necessity, or quality. Fan service used to be understood as short hand for “nothing but shallow fan service” But in true internet form people started applying what was understood to be shorthand for the above to anything they slightly disliked that could be said to be written for then player’s nostalgia.

@idleeidolon

Ай бұрын

@@LC-sc3en Lazy critic/creator brain always defaults to "that is so overplayed..." thinking. If a story has fan-service, uses tropes, has classical elements, isn't subversive, etc. etc. a lot will dismiss it offhand. This is why a lot of people never got past the trope-ish, fanservice-y coating of Persona 5 or Nier. They're so educated in the media they study to create that they don't give certain stories a chance.

Wrathion never faced Nzoth. As a matter of fact, he made a point he couldn't go in there without going mad, no one could, the cloak was the only thing keeping us sane as well. He broke the carapace with xal'atath, and we fought our way in.

I know I’m not the only one who has said it or thinks it but the chemistry that you guys have when you work with Jesse is incredible. You guys should come up with a new channel or something to be able to work together more frequently. And it shall be called “Grinding Cox” 😅

My take on it is that Shadowlands is entirely the wrong expansion to compare Endwalker to. Sure they came out at similar times and both are capstones on a long running story however for WoW it was WotLK that was the Endwalker equivalent. There we had a story that had been running since the very first WarCraft, expanded on characters from WC1, WC2 and the expansions, had the scope greatly expanded in WC3 and Frozen Throne, fleshed out the Lich King as anything more than flavour text for the Death Knight units, tied together the reason for the Orcs invasion and why the Draenei were on Draenor, set up the Burning Legion and Sargeras as the big bads behind everything and then let the player neatly tie all of that off by defeating the Lich King themselves and preventing the worst to come to pass. WoW was great till then. After that they massively dropped the ball because they had to come up with an entirely new hero and villain driven plot in a game where the player is just a face in the crowd and the plot happens arround them _and they'd just removed every existential threat that the player was likely to care about._ The same has just happened in FFXIV however, unlike Blizzard, Squeenix haven't just immediately upped the ante by creating ever bigger "not the true last boss" moments (also they have _signifcantly_ better writers. Oh and listen to feedback. Oh and etcetera etcetera etcetera) which is why I'm quite confident about the future of FFXIV post-Ascians.

Thinking Zenos is the big bad when he literally spent all his time telling you he just wants to fight you & you alone really goes to show how much they chose to ignore there 😭 even more so when Fandaniel shows up and frame 1 tells you he wants to destroy everything including himself

To the journey.

So, I play both wow and 14 - and I love them both for different reasons. I started wow in Shadowlands, and as a new person who knew nothing about the lore or previous story or characters…I like Shadowlands a lot. I enjoyed the stories, I liked all the zones. I guess I’m the minority 😃

Absolutely one of the most crucial differences is in both timing and foreshadowing. The player was given information about Zodiark being created to save the world from the apocalypse and everything and we hand so much time to process that. Which means when we got to the big Z in Endwalker and killed him that moment of oh crap he didn't prevent the apocalypse he was just holding it back is what we got and now we had to deal with that. In contrast The Jailer and his bigger threat was kept close to the chest therefore giving players of WoW no reason to know him or care about him. The reveal that he was prepping for a bigger threat came out of nowhere for the player which is just plain bad writing. When sudden reveals like that happen they tend to feel like ass-pulls.

FF XIV acknowledges us players even in the Credits, they put our Character name in the credit

How everyone feels about Shadowlands, is how I felt about BFA when I quit for good. I still remember my prediction for Sylvanas, because it largely came true. In short I said she would do something no one else is capable of doing, and be redeemed either dead or alive, probably alive.

22:51 I absolutely, 100% believe it's just new blood wanting to tell their own stories independent of WoW lore. Every little thing I've seen of behind the scenes makes me think that, especially under Danuser.

Note. We still dont know what the big bad evil thing is that was mentioned at the end of the Jailer fight and were going into the next expansion after dragonflight and that has nothing to really dow ith the sword that y'all mentioned AND we still dont know why the Jailer did what he was doing and what he did before that put him in his situation.

"DID WE HAVE TO GO HERE???" For me, that was Sorrow of Werlyt.

Good mornin

The fact that Sylvanas is stated to be "Morally Gray" is honestly the funniest and scariest thing. Some Writer at Blizzard genuinely seems to think Genocide is a Moral Gray area

@rageofheaven

Ай бұрын

That person would be Steve Danuser, who wrote Nathanos as his personal representation. Yeah.

Assumung they mean MoP's opening, calling gunning down surrendering, unarmed orcs a war crime isn't "twitter brained" it is LITERALLY the point of the scene. It is called out in game that what you are doing is wrong, and doing so literally releases the sha and kicks off MoP. It IS a war crime, it IS wrong. That's literally the point of the story there. Both sides commit a ton of war crimes in MoP, hell it's even the title of the book afterwards dude.

FF14 caused me to weep with its story and music. WoW caused me anguish with its community.

Thrall charges agaisnt the jailer* the jailer about to kill thrall with his giant hammer* Garrosh: NO ONE KILL THAT COWARD THRALL EXEPT MEEE!!

"Since Warcraft 3..."

good morning all o/

Morning all o/

We got closure and justice for Emet. But we got spat on and trampled with what they did to Arthas.

Man did I love meteion. Even though she brought destruction to countless shards I couldn’t help but to feel sorry for her

@1shogunate696

Ай бұрын

Also in shadowlands there was an extreme disconnect it was laughable, This is when I decided to try FF14 and boy I wasn’t disappointed and I didn’t know how good of a story I was going to get. Unforgettable

Just an aside: RIP Google Podcasts

I've always thought it was pretty wild it could end with "Oh Arthas is such a poor innocent soul because he was being mind controlled, pity him. Oh Sylvannas was being mind controlled but we all still hate her and its still her fault you shouldnt like her."

GG!!!! Love Jesse!

Ardenweld is where you went if you were tied to nature. Bastion is for those who are bound by duty. Venthyr place was for sinners who were too prideful to acknowledge their actions. Maldraxxus is where warriors went. The maw is where those are unredeemable go. Those who failed to be redeems in venthyr land or couldn’t be

When I started Warcraft back in Burning Crusade I appreciated NOT being the main hero of the world. In later expansions when you became the 'Champion Of Azeroth' I didn't like it. Let me be the nameless faceless dude that comes in, kicks ass, grabs loot and leaves. Let the world leaders do the world leader things.

BFA and Shadowlands were so bad... I was actually rooting for N'Zoth and the Jailer to win. 🤣

🍿

A big part of Blizzard's problem is that it can't write a female character who isn't either a Sexy Lamp or Woman Spurned unless it's an inconsequential background character. Sylvanas couldn't be the REAL villain because she's got to be the Woman Spurned so she has to somehow be NOT the bad guy. Somehow. Even though the one thing that ties all of Warcraft's lore together is that EVERYONE is always an asshole. Honestly maybe that's the problem? Maybe writing a world where every single character is ultimately a jackass kinda makes the writing suck?

I can relate to the person who didn't want to play WOW because of Mowing down orcs because the game at the same time paints ALL races as intelligent emotional beings that we can play as ourselves. So, am I just not supposed to care about these characters period? Because that's what that scene says to me

Every villain after Arthas got the lines that weren't good enough for Arthas,

FYI - Shadowlands can't be the afterlife because you can't have living things like animals in the afterlife just being there. It's just a plane of existence where assholes captured souls for power.

WOW's story is too inconsistent to care about. Their character development is pretty awful too, but even if that was fixed -- caring is an investment and it demands returns and when the return for your investment is "nvm that did not happen or nvm that did not matter because of this bigger thing" then after a while it stops making sense to care. It's a bad investment. Meanwhile FFXIV pays back most of the emotional investment you put in and it makes it worthwhile to care which functions as their hook. This is why (ARR's length aside) it takes a minute to get into FFXIV, because you need to get pass the point where you realize getting involved is a good investment, at which point you become excited to keep investing into it and effectively become hooked.

I like the Ardenweald aesthetics but that zone's story was terrible. The Winter Queen did nothing the entire time except I guess be snarky at Bwonsandi (who is the only god in WOW who tried to protect his people from the jailer and the only deserving of worship), ask her people to die for her, fail to safeguard her sigil (literally her ONE job) which she just left in the open for anyone to find. Then Tyrande gets blue balled right when she was about to beat up Sylvanas who seriously needed someone to treat her like a pinata. Then the realization that Elune is a moron. The idea that the Night Elf genocide was okay because those souls went on to nurture Ardenweald and that this is sanctioned by their goddess and in addition to that the fact that at no point before or after the genocide Elune warned or explained this to any of her many priestesses at any of her many temples or the fact that Elune gave Tyrande the power of the Night Warrior for seemingly no reason at all -- she did not let her have her vengeance and Tyrande did nothing of note with her power. No deep lore on the Night Warrior either, other than the power eventually kills the wielder (which we knew) and exists in multiple planes/planets which means Elune despite being just another member of the pantheon created artificially like AI somehow has the power to connect to other planets and planes (a power her sister lacks) -- and that she is still a moron despite that grander perspective. Then if you did the story for Ardenweald that effing terrible garden of souls mechanic... honestly the only good thing that happens in that zone is the avatar-like little play they put on that pokes fun at the games' earlier expansions.

"I'll tell you what I'm not doing. I'm sure as shit not playing Final Fantasy."

I was excited for Shadowlands. The four different factions sounded great for me and my alts. But then they lock the powers behind those factions. So if you liked a faction but hated the power they gave you... You were just irritated and frustrated. And they added the Torghast thing, but then made it mandatory for a power progression. No one liked that. And at this point I would have quit WoW back in BFA if I had not felt responsible to our guild raid group. Which was already suffering from manpower shortage. So I made it through the first rate of Denarius, and to let my sub lapse. I haven't been back since. Sylvanas turned out to be stupid and duped by the moronic jailer. Who had zero charisma, and at the end just says "I was saving you from the bigger bad!" 🤦 I hear Dragonflight mechanically was pretty good but the story was a snoozefest.

I think the other thing is that *The Endsinger does not taint the previous villains' actions*. Emet-Selch was trying to live in the past, Zenos wanted to fight things, and Fandaniel couldn't keep his depression to himself. Even after the reveal of the Endsinger and the truth of matters, these things are still true. So by not trying to justify the villain's actions last second, the individual villains of the expansions are allowed to stand on their own stories. I don't love FFXIV's villains, Zenos is too passive to be interesting and Emet-Selch's entire deal boils down to being a racist granduncle, but they're not tainted by the bigger picture, unlike what I hear happens constantly in WOW.

I really did like some aspects of Shadowlands, like how I adored Maldraxxus, but there was just too much bad. Anima grinding, Torghast being largely unfun, the Jailer's terrible design and utter lack of personality, Arthas getting beyond shafted, and so much negative stuff happening to Sylvanas as a character. I truly wanted to love that expansion, but it just felt so grinding in gameplay and badly done in writing.

I haven't played WoW since early BFA. But after years of FF14, holy crap do WoWs graphics suck. I know they are intentional stylized towards the cartoony. But just the armor and terrain textures, and the details in the every day objects. WoW could never do anything close to that eating scene with G'raha and his burger.

It's like American TV. As a European I stop caring about what is going to happen in American TV Series. midway through the third of their 60-episode "seasons", because I just don't have enough minutes in my life, and I know they are going to just string it out as much as they can, with the minimum of imaginative input. It happened, for me, in Six Feet Under, it happened, in Breaking Bad, it happened in The Walking Dead, because, eventually, characters who were initially quite compelling became lame "Yeah, I don't care about you anymore: you have become the filling for Coke adds". (That last series get extra bonus points of lameness for that whole "How many more times can we have the John Wyndam's 'Day of the Triffids' opening character story reworked before the audience notice that a genius book author actually wrote this opening in the early 1950s and isn't getting the recognition he deservers: Day of The Triffids: read it)?

I just started and I dont know who Endsinger is..but i'm rooting for the FF Boss despite being a wow player, F you Zoval! SL was your fault!

I think I'm alone in that i do not like that the Endsinger fight was a medley of final boss themes. Having struggled with depression, I was actually super invested in Metion and the Endsinger. I was expecting something out of a Yoko Taro game - like the Shadowlord of NieR. A sad tragic finale, gaining momentum as neither side backs down. Honestly, in my AU headcanon, my WoL would have morphed into a half-Blastphemy after teleporting everyone away. Empowered by despair but not consumed by it, breaking out mechanics from previous final boss fights if you want to keep that motif going. But thats my journey, not the WoL's journey. What we got honestly is probably better for the wider audience, and not my niche desires. And I think that's okay. Even if its not what i wanted, it still sounded amazing and resonated in its own way.

One thing is lost upon people. I quit in Pandaria so I don't know what much worse it gets. One thing that is lost on people is that the story is never about you. If this were Warcraft 3, 2 or 1, you were that knight unit. A normal knight, everyone expects to be foddered off in the next battle. But you lived. And you continue to live and be part of the armies that fell these big bads. And then they tried to make it more personal starting with the Lich King. You are champions! And with that this disconnect between you and the narrative is lost and it all falls apart from there. The writers were never that good with it. And then they let toxic idealogies poison their work. Not only that, they're scared to do anything, meanwhile the writers are paid to do nothing. They take too much for granted people will always come back.

God cartoon orc warcrime is such a twitter thing huh? Reminds me of the usual every other month on twitter back when I used it often where people would get mad at one of the starter cities for being racist or something written a decade ago. My personal favorite being someone SO MAD with the Uldah NPC asking a dancer to reach into his pocket for some Gil. Like you're a hop skip and step away from the one of the most infamous rooms amongst the RP servers, and an NPC making a crass comment at a half naked cat girl is your issue?

@UltimaKeyMaster

Ай бұрын

I feel like going into WoW and having humans and orcs just mercilessly slaughter each other is a bit of a culture shock thing from FF14 having a carefully created world where unless it's generally meaningless overworld mobs, you always have a rather solid reason to be hunting something down even if a lot of standard side quests are ten bear asses. But yeah, my issue is less with the rampant cartoonish death and destruction and more "how in the fuck am I supposed to find a linear way to experience this game with three clients and retail wants to funnel me into the worst experience possible like I know what's going on." The answer, in my opinion, is play Vanilla or Progression Classic *first.* If you don't like it now, you sure as shit are never going to like or at least tolerate Retail. Classic at least pumps the brakes and doesn't mind you exploring old zones while keeping a general challenge level up instead of making old zones outright trivial.