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@yaoiloverstudio

3 ай бұрын

Just wanted to mention that your name "Eis" if spelled together would be the German word for ice /ice cream ^^

@marquesgorham4226

3 ай бұрын

It's funny how you mention how overgeneralizing is bad in this video yet you kinda do it within in this video when it comes to you talking about guys and there horrible treatment of women. I just wanted say that

@user-x56ji4i2o1

2 ай бұрын

can ya elaborate /genq ​@@marquesgorham4226

@tetrisuno764

2 ай бұрын

most people on ao3 are queer

I only read Bl or Gl, because in straight media women are portrayed so badly. Sometimes (as a lesbian) I wanna read something that has NOTHING to do with me. I don’t automatically put myself in the position of a character and that gives me comfort.

@Creek_With_Care

3 ай бұрын

It's awesome to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'm a lesbian and only read gl or bl romance manga for this very reason. I don't tend to put myself in the characters' situation, which makes it feel like I'm an outsider looking in on these relationships. It's a very detached experience, but one I do genuinely love a lot.

@FMoment4311

3 ай бұрын

Offtopic but omg sun wukong pfp!!!!

@fuyubuns

3 ай бұрын

LMK PFP SPOTTED

@ebel-mt2dm

3 ай бұрын

This is honestly so real. Its so weird that the chance of finding an interesting story seems to increase significantly if it is BL GL vs heterosexual.

@BelBelle468

3 ай бұрын

This! Sometimes the girls in BL manga are really good cuz they’re supposed to just be characters and aren’t meant to be sexualized for the audience. It’s one of those rare opportunities to see women like that, and they’re not meant to be forced into romance either. It depends on the writer tho, since some bad writers will make the girls just obstacles for the romance, etc. And yeah, i can only stomach certain romance stories like Jitsu wa watashi wa, Kaguya Sama, and I want to hold __kun (I forgot his name! Japanese names r kinda hard). They have such great female leads.

My therapist has a theory that traumatized women also like bl content more because it's easier to enjoy something that makes you feel safe and distanced from your own experience, while you still get to enjoy smut

@frogadicion

3 ай бұрын

Can you explain a bit further?

@accountrandomnumber182

3 ай бұрын

That's sad😢😢😢

@helloeuphoria4407

3 ай бұрын

@@frogadicion say you're a afab person who still enjoys reading smut, however it makes it difficult for you to read something erotic with a woman in it - it doesn't make you a woman hater, however perhaps it makes you uncomfortable or perhaps even traumatic because it's easier to insert yourself in that position, most of the times it's even unconscious. so, reading BL is easier because that way you can read the smut without feeling uncomfortable or traumatized.

@Mcpollo_Justdonalds

3 ай бұрын

I strongly agree with this theory! As afab I don’t like my female body parts and reading fiction that doesn’t have that I don’t have to relate to it on a physical level. I think I might be trans so it’s probably gender dysphoria and I have done research on it and think that’s why I hate straight fiction and dating men as a woman.

@Suited_Nat

3 ай бұрын

@@helloeuphoria4407I agree. I’m an afab enby who’s lesbian. BL was a gateway to my own lesbian sexuality, as ironic as that sounds lol

i’m a lesbian from a very homophobic country, and the illegal scans of yaoi/yuri manga that i randomly found on the Internet were literally the only representation available to me in my teenage years... and honestly still i find japanese BL much more relatable than any western queer media 🙃

@aquaabouttogetfunky

3 ай бұрын

No fr. I find a lot of western queer media so boring. Most of it is just watered down fluffy contemporary stuff. And when it’s in a setting I like, it’s so. Watered down and not willing to go all out. It feels super sanitized.

@epicthy

3 ай бұрын

⁠@@aquaabouttogetfunkyyeahhh a lot of western media is so scared to depict queer characters with actual flaws

@aquaabouttogetfunky

3 ай бұрын

@@epicthy and when it’s overly fluffy, they will also complain it’s fetishy (like how they did with Boyfriends and others) That or they will make a character only for representation sake before they bother making a character more likable. Like cool, he’s [blank race] from [blank background] but he’s still the personality of wet cardstock

@lainiwakura1776

3 ай бұрын

That sucks but BL is for straight women.

@fr0nk571

3 ай бұрын

​@aquaabouttogetfunky It also feels so stereotypical to me, like not every queer person is the same. How about we have some *actual* diversity.

I also want to point out that, as a lesbian myself, men who enjoy yuri get nowhere NEAR the same amount hate the women who enjoy yaoi get. Yes, there is definitely some pushback against them, but you don't see men telling those people that they are wrong most of the time. Yuri ships often get called "hot" by men, and it's definitely more normalized in western culture as lesbians were often seen just for the pleasure of men. I believe that neither MLM or WLW ships should be fetishized, but men yuri enjoyers have less of a reason than women yaoi enjoyers. Again, this is just my opinion and my own experiences!

@ducky19991

3 ай бұрын

I dunno, LGBT people have been VERY vocal for a long time about how straight men fetishize lesbians. But maybe the audience is a bit different for yuri than live action corn. I’m sure there are those who like it in a normal way, as well as those who like it in a fetishizing way. Same with BL. This is coming from someone who enjoys both yuri and BL.

@Ottobon

3 ай бұрын

Depends on culture, you can encounter some serious and persistent hate out of people from certain more religious culture, same sort of style you would expect people just screaming about it being unnatural and all that

@canadalovesanime3137

3 ай бұрын

Probably because s*x is still seen as something "only men really enjoy". Well more like as my grandmother kept trying to instill on me; "Women only do it to please their husbands(or for making babies)".

@salceds

3 ай бұрын

Based on my experiences, this isn't true

@deihiru

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, a guy liking yuri tends to get lumped with other "I hate men" sentiments. but what I've seen the most in yuri spaces is biphobia.

Ppl also tend to forget that in many countries, baby queers have lowkey no access to "good quality queer rep media", and with yaoi/yuri ships being as popular as they are, it is often their first contact with anything other then cishet stories. Mine defitely was💀 is it pathetic that I realized I was in love with my girl best friend, through reading a bl about a guy having a crush on his best bro? Maybe. Did it take me like 5 re-reads to even START questioning why do I relate to this guy sm? Definitely. Is de nile a river in Egypt?.....yeah. BUT WE GOT HERE SOMEHOW IN THE END AND THAT'S WHAT COUNTS BITCH🫡🫡 salutations to the fanfic writers yall carrying some fandoms sm fr

@frogadicion

3 ай бұрын

Last quote is so true

@prefon13

3 ай бұрын

This!! When I was a baby queer, back in the mid-90's, doujinshis were literally my gateway drug to romantic and sexual fantasy. What else was there? Dial-up internet porn, depressing Hollywood films about heroic long-suffering gays dying of HIV, or indie movies which always seemed to feature an older man reforming a gay-for-pay sex worker--all of which I had to sneak when my parents were outta town! (I'm being glib, but it was sorta like this...) Doujinshis were honestly life-saving fantasy for me, and felt far safer and more accessible to explain away. Essential reading for this baby queer!

@devofficialchannel

3 ай бұрын

The first paragraph resonated with me well as a non-binary Indonesian. So much that I just feel bad with how limited actual media centred around LGBTQ+ in Indonesia that properly represent reality are. It's known in queer spaces in Indonesia, but the general public are either disinterested at best or disgusted at worst. I always kinda wanted to write my own stories because of this. Not just to feel comfortable as a queer Asian, but just to tell fun stories while also having more well-rounded queer characters who are also people of colour WITHOUT having to rigidly categorise them.

@figlet6427

3 ай бұрын

@@devofficialchannel @prefon13 I feel you both sm, my country is basically still recovering from both n*zi and soviet occupation, and you can imagine there was lowkey NOTHING queer left after that bs, among all the other things. Older generations were in panic mode around these topics, bcs being queer could get you killed/hospitalized, and raised the next gen with that mindset in mind. Recently it's MUCH better and most ppl are kinda indifferent to gay stuff (although biggots still exist but that's just life). Still, in terms of good queer literature? Yeah nah💀 I saw heartstopper being sold in a book shop like a year ago, and I shit you not that was my first run in with openly gay media in my city iml. It's getting better yes, and I couldn't be happier for it, but I couldn't tell you how important djs/fanfics were for not only me but my queer friends while growing up. It definitely wasn't perfect, but just seeing queer stuff existing meant so much to us.

@Suited_Nat

3 ай бұрын

This was literally me growing up, and I’m from the US lmao. It’s due to how much parents are willing to limit exposure to queer shit too. But yeah, de Nile was a river in Egypt for me cus same.

I used to hate fujoshi. I'm a trans man, and being viewed as a straight girl who fetishized gay men was always one of my biggest fears. I moved to Japan to teach English and met a lot of girls who liked yaoi and bl. Some of my students even enjoyed it. I found most straight girls who like gay male content do so because they feel safer and more empowered consuming romance that doesn't objectify them. They want to appreciate men from a safe distance, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Most are even queer allies, and I truly think the mainstreaming of BL has advanced lgbt rights in Japan. Of course there are always people who take it too far, but I will always be grateful for authors who make gay content, even if they're straight women. Because who doesn't want more gay stories 😝

@mandiblackwell4668

3 ай бұрын

The biggest BL fan I ever knew was a lesbian lol.

@human_plant

3 ай бұрын

@@mandiblackwell4668 yeah, a lot of girls who like bl are queer, which is awesome!! The lesbians never really bothered me, because I think queer people are entitled to queer stories. The straight girls used to freak me out, but now I respect straight women's interest as well.

@falcon_arkaig

3 ай бұрын

I'm also a trans guy and I don't think I ever hated BL or anything. I read BL sometimes mostly bc I enjoy the ship and not bc I fetishize gay men. Though I am afraid that to a transphobe I look like a typical "straight women who just reads BL bc I fetishize gay men" bc that's not at all why I read BL. Also I wouldn't even be straight, I'm actually AroAce. Where are my fellow AroAce Trans men who love BL? Lol.

@greybey4385

3 ай бұрын

@@falcon_arkaig I'm here! I also am a trans guy who really just loves seeing BL, and honestly just romance in general. I know that a lot of people tend to feel lonely when consuming romance related media because it reminds them of their "sad" relationship status, but I never felt that way as I am content with not having a romantic relationship and really just enjoy seeing wholesome romance in anime, BL or not.

@xorbyc8149

3 ай бұрын

I am also aroace, more or less nonbinary and I consider myself a fujoshi. I had a brief phase when I was really ashamed of liking yaoi and internet culture surrounded it, with was kinda earned. Now I still think it has problems, but I'm sure I'd does more good than bad after all. I think I like bl in fanfictions, and comics, not so much because it's between men, but because of atmosphere surrounding this genre, I like how it has shoujo sensibilities, it's not afraid to be kitch, over the top or a little pandering and stupid, it also has a quality with is hard to explain, that it pretends (but doesnt try) to be deep and profound. Yuri does it too, but not as often, unfortunately some of them are too pandering to men by being too cute and their personalities are very caricature like.

I've also sort of never understood the argument that all (Japanese, Korean) BL is bad because it's "too s*xual" or "too dark"- this is prevalent in all romance. Taking one look at the "dark romance" books everyone touts on TikTok, sporting straight characters doing the exact same things, will tell you that much. It's not just the BL genre that these tropes exist in, and it's not just fujoshis that make those tropes popular.

@sianais

3 ай бұрын

Thank you. As a person who reads just about anything it's disturbing how its so easy to demonize anything women like, ironically, by other women. It even happens to a lesser degree with straight romance too. Like, it's bloody fiction. Every group has its crazies.

@Ac3_Silvers

3 ай бұрын

Oh yeah, and Danmei fandoms are totally bonkers now because people who pick them up after seeing Untamed or Word of Honor or any other adaptation start clutching pearls over… explicit content, MUCH more dark subject matter, questionable “interests” and… insertions, etc etc etc Like, if you asked we warned you and there’s also a lot of people discussing that stuff frankly. The fact that you don’t like LWJ and WWX going at it a bunch, or literally all of ErHa… well, again we warned you.

@Bread_bread01

3 ай бұрын

I haven't watched the video, but I do think the bulk of yaoi/BL manga/manhwas tend to uncomfortably rape-y, have straight up multiple rape scenes, general abuse and aren't dealt with (written or read with) the needed care. You can write problematic things in your work, but if the bulk of it in the genre are problematic, I think there's the problem. But over the recent years, there's been an improvement from what I've seen. It's really not that hard to understand tbh, if you think about how the bulk of it (Not to mention they tend to be the most popular works) is what the general audience sees when they first try to read BL. That's not really the case for straight ppl romance. Also, lol, the dark romance that booktok reads are very tame compared to those abusive yaoi works. A better comparison would be Chinese CEO manhuas, iykyk

@samceledon448

3 ай бұрын

​@@Bread_bread01 This is surprisingly one of the first sentiments I've found here of this kind; although I haven't seen the video yet either and I (politely) refuse to engage with the content and community in the way I *used to* for my own safety, so much of the popular bl I've seen women and girls rally around IS incredibly abusive and in a way that's done with absolutely no consideration to those victims and/or fetishizes that situation. After all, we know that good representation matters, is few and far-between, and that our depictions of marginalized people affect them tenfold because of it. I understand that it's indicative of overall ills of misogyny, but it also needs to be acknowledged as a phenomena in which queer men and boys and gender-queer folk, especially those who have their traumatic experiences fetishized by their own community and their allies (for instance, pre-op trans men iykyk), are hurt indelibly by the carelessness of others who arguably hold an equally privileged place within race and/or sexuality. I know that I, personally, can attest to having been re-traumatized by both women and men who are allies or in community with myself, and who think it's okay to make these bl comparisons to real-life people, and have fetishized my experience in turn by over-sexualizing the trauma responses people like me have to the world around us (ex. many of the protective actions women must think about in regards to men, queer men and boys also tend to take similar precautions). I understand that this isn't indicative of a "misandrist" band of straight women who just want to have their cake and eat it too, and that the onus falls on misogyny and transphobia, but both straight and queer women who are fans of BL shouldn't find themselves opted out of the conversation so quickly and entirely, as nobody should shoulder such widely-ingrained oppression alone. (In all fairness, nobody can opt themselves out, and I don't intend to single out any one population.) Overall, I find myself agreeing with commenter @Tuvella1, who references Hailey Rose Coleman's 2021 Thesis "Do not Feed the Fetishizers" in the following comment; // Coleman basically concluded that because of homophobia and sex negativity BL fans need to come up with this concept of "a bad fan who likes sex too much" so they can defend themselves as "pure" fans. Coleman used the term "narrative resistance". it's sad that fans can't just like the things they like without coming up with reasons why they're the "good" fans. it's a part of a bigger societal problem of stigmatisation of gay love /sex and women being shamed for their sexual interests. // However, I would argue that fetishization in regards to some minority communities, for example within race, are far more developed and understood than others simply by way of a (largely) western shunning of topics of sex- compounded by a silencing of queer folk across the board. I believe that further expansion on allyship and intersectional community in cases like this is possible and beneficial, but it isn't if we exclude ourselves and others after having our metaphorical toes metaphorically stepped on. Engage kindly and peace ✌

@narudayo5053

3 ай бұрын

True, the worst is to justify that, they will either used exemple from almost 20 years ago or only use as example the most kiny smutty one upon thousands of one. It's like saying that a h*ntai manga represent every shoujo....

not to mention, when there‘s a cringe or problematic hetero story (50 shades of grey imo lol), it is not immediately painted as representative of the entire genre. I think bl‘s and gay characters are allowed to be „bad“ without picked apart.

@carolscarlette

3 ай бұрын

Twilight was

@bethanybrookes8479

3 ай бұрын

@carilscarlette twilight is a thing that lots of teenage girls like in a genre that lots of teenage girls like. Tbh, YA romance has all the cards stacked against it and people will find ways to tear it down Purley because teenage girls like it and therefore it is "cringe" and "bad". Regardless of how good or bad it is from a purely objective standpoint. Because people always like to shit on the interests of teenage girls.

@tawan6921

3 ай бұрын

@@bethanybrookes8479Do you think "Twilight" is objectively good!? Is it really impossible that people genuinely think Twilight is cringe?

@shirataka8331

3 ай бұрын

There is plenty of generalization of romance as a genre, even when it's hetero. 50 Shades definitely gave the genre a black eye, and it is definitely picked apart. As well it should be.

@trixiebewitched

3 ай бұрын

​@@shirataka8331 50 shades actually inspired movies like 365 days... So i wouldnt say it gave the industry a black eye until 365 days was called out....

Honestly, all the fujoshi I've met either were queer or turned out queer later in their lives, with bl being their gate to realizing not everything has to be black and white (like a yaoi manga keke).

@recycledMilk

3 ай бұрын

oh yea. OH YEA 100%. i used to be in a big fujoshi friendgroup well now 10 years later half of us are trans and not a single one is straight. 😂

@Force-hiddenmasquerade

3 ай бұрын

Yeah BL helped me figure out that I was asexual 😅

@materla4102

3 ай бұрын

@@Force-hiddenmasquerade haha, it's the fujoshi to aroace pipeline 😄

@6235river

3 ай бұрын

it makes me wonder why they can't discover this through GL though. it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, but i've always been curious about it because it seems like the people who are REALLY into BL are similarly averse to GL/never bother to give it the time of day.

@materla4102

3 ай бұрын

​@@6235river We've talked about this under another comment too, it is an interesting topic. And I can't know the reasons of others, but I think it makes sense for trans eggs and a-spec women to enjoy BL instead. And for people disillusioned or traumatized by heterosexual relationships to enjoy a smut that is safe and distant to their experience. Also when I was growing up, most of the GL seemed to be targeted at men, so maybe that can affect it too. There always seemed more BL targeted at women than GL. And then there's of course the internalized misogyny that a lot of people are carrying. These are all the things I could came up. I genuinely know nothing about GL. I'm curious what other people think.

"Every single person who writes abd consumes BL is a different person". I wish all people understood this simple, yet so unreachable truth.

cannot state enough how the transphobia surrounding fujoshi discourse has affected me. i refused to accept i was gay for the longest time, out of fear i was "just a creepy straight girl". and it made me so miserable, not embracing being gay and trans and how beautiful that is, not loving myself. i still do very often feel internalized transphobia related to liking men. i am still worried people will see me as a fetishizer trying to get with gay men. it is so harmful on so many levels

@Carottensaft

3 ай бұрын

This. I'm a trans woman, and these internalized transphobic thoughts bother me a lot too. I'm bi, and I prefer women over men, and many times I have tried to not sound like a GL fetishizer, when in reality I literaly am part of GL in real life? I also know some friends that are trans masc, and they share the same thoughts too, with BL. I hope you will overcome these feelings one day, and that you don't have to feel that way in the future! 💜

@frogadicion

3 ай бұрын

Bro you are making me question things about myself right now

@hotfrenchbread7059

3 ай бұрын

The "why am I into this?" to "oh wait, am I fetishising this? I should stop" to "nope I'm just trans" pipeline is real. I had the same thing. Same with the "not like other girls" phase, where I thought I was being misogynistic but I'm just trans.

@evilturkey523

3 ай бұрын

This this thisssssss. So many times I've thought "I can't be trans because I like guys and I'm not gay I'm just a girl" purely for this reason and how we're seen

@veatries

3 ай бұрын

This! I live in a very sheltered and conservative country, I didn't know much about LGBT till i went to middle school. I learnt about being transgender when I was 13 and I finally realized that thats what I am. I always was but I never could put in in words since I didn't know thats an option. I started using he/him pronouns and researching it but then this happend - I met a LOT of people online saying how trans men are just fujo girls who wants to live their yaoi fantasy. Back then I just got into anime and discovered fandoms and what comes with it i read fanfictions, including the gay ones. And i saw so many people saying this online that i believed them, I believed that im just being delusional. And thats how I spent 3 years in denial. Fortunately when I was 16 I met another trans guy who helped me accept myself and understand everything a little better. Now I'm almost 21 and Im still not fully out (Haven't start transitioning yet because of my family situation), partly because of the shame and internalised transphobia that i still have in me, even if i try to fight it. Sigh

a lot of people try to claim that fujoshis act all crazy around irl gay guys but if you meet a fujo who's actually adjusted and not 14 years old they're normal people who just like fictional characters

@morningboy_

3 ай бұрын

im a queer male, but im a fudanshi/fukei. i don't go insane when i see other gay men around me. same goes for fujos.

@MadCatAttack123

2 ай бұрын

Yeah I knew girls when I was 13 ish who were like that. They all grew out of it. The problem was never that they were fujo's, the problem was they were 13 years old and their brain chemistry was whack lol.

@videocliplover

2 ай бұрын

Exactly

@videocliplover

2 ай бұрын

I’m a proud fujoshi in my 30s and I’m mellow about it generally.

@sappyzap

2 ай бұрын

me here! im a young adult lesbian who just likes reading fiction and it happens to be BL lol what can I say when it's good it's good, it doesn't mean I'll go around shipping my mlm friends with random men

Another thing worth thinking about is that by it's very premise BL is largely avoiding the very real pitfall of queerbaiting. Some of these "better western examples" you will see thrown around are... bait. Like, actual bait. Not "coded as much as they could get away with" like Genshin, but, bait. Like, the Sherlock and Supernatural showrunners horribly mocked fans for "falling for" the bait they put in those shows.

@marocat4749

3 ай бұрын

While that made sherlock and john toxic, not because of the shipping but the mocking. And honestly supernatural wrote dean asbisexual toxic disaster due wanting to please his dad and, laying off a lot with castiel, cute ace relationship, and then bitter exes. Thats not even subtext,its text.

@stargateMimhi

3 ай бұрын

@@marocat4749The Supernatural staff mocked fans too.

@sappyzap

2 ай бұрын

​@@stargateMimhisuperwholock girlies never had peace

@Honeyin2013

2 ай бұрын

@@marocat4749 That is a fair judgement, but as a past fan of supernatural I think Deancas was pretty much bait for the whole show. when they finally show their true emotions to each other dean is killed like 2 seconds later

@j_fenrir

Ай бұрын

​@sappyzap as a superwholock girlie (adult man) i have had to unpack actual trauma that these shows gave me regarding my queer identity. What a yikes lmao

“E as in YAO-E” Dead.

I'd also question the whole concept of "fetishisation" when it comes to straight women and BL. This is about slash fanfiction but I think it applies here: according to Lucy Neville's Girls Who Like Boys Who Like Boys (2018) 55% of female readers of slash fiction are queer. There is also Coleman's thesis Do Not Feed The Fetishizers (2021) She basically interviewed over 30 BL TikTok fans and asked the what counts as "fetishisation" and no one could really answer in a concrete way. no one had ever actually seen these "fetishisers" anywhere in the fandom yet. they were basically like this boogeyman. The straight fans answered that if you're homophobic but still read BL then you're a fetishiser. There was the sentiment of "if you are into only the sexual content you're a fetishiser". Coleman basically concluded that because of homophobia and sex negativity BL fans need to come up with this concept of "a bad fan who likes sex too much" so they can defend themselves as "pure" fans. Coleman used the term "narrative resistance". it's sad that fans can't just like the things they like without coming up with reasons why they're the "good" fans. it's a part of a bigger societal problem of stigmatisation of gay love /sex and women being shamed for their sexual interests.

@pocketproductions7206

3 ай бұрын

To me “fetishisation” also means glorification of a orientational dynamic your not a part of / can’t be apart of I.E men glorifying lesbianism and women glorifying gayness, in term putting down other dynamics as “lesser” such as BL watchers/readers putting down lesbian pairings or even stright pairings purely for the sake of it falling into BL I personally try to avoid female BL readers simply because as a perceived male who likes men it makes me uncomfortable that my everyday life is fetishised by people, obviously not talking about BL readers who enjoy other things but if it isn’t your orientation it does tend to feel weird Edit: oh and to add/clarify something I’m not referring to things such as seeing a queer coded gay couple and enjoying it or even shipping two pairings of characters outside of your orientation, there’s plenty of straight and lesbian non-canon parings I think are enjoyable and cute, I specifically only mean when it is glorified such as saying other non-canon couples arnt as good just for the sexual orientation it falls into

@miikapm2

3 ай бұрын

if you only accept queer media/people if it turns you on you are ABSOLUTELY fetishising queer people. that applies to both straight women who are obsessed with yaoi and men who are obsessed with yuri i get what you’re saying but this and the fact that some people do just see queer relationships as something to sexualise can coexist

@Tuvella1

3 ай бұрын

@@pocketproductions7206In her book Lucy Neville talked about Symon's survey (2001) which says that 75% of m/m erotica fans were also readers of f/m erotica and 60% read f/f erotica. there is clearly overlap there. why assume women's interest in BL/ gay erotica is "glorification" if so many women are interested in these other gender dynamics as well? I'm a bisexual women and have befriended several cishet and bi trans men because we all loved yuri and shipping the girl characters. And when it comes to these men being sexually attracted to those female characters... well me too? These guys clearly don't see these girls just as sexual objects but clearly relate to them and many write some very sweet (and hot) fanfic. I think there is no need to assume the worst of people who love romance stories and erotica about the opposite gender. There are several gay men who study BL (and other gay media) as well like Thomas Baudinette and James Welker if the male perspective interests you more.

@mervardent

3 ай бұрын

I'd argue that fetishization definitely exists. On multiple occasions, I've seen people on the Internet (of different genders and ages) being like "lesbians are hot, BUT DON'T START ME ON DA GAYS" (usually said by men that are homophobic but think that two women kissing are "hot") or "meh, get the girls outta here, I'm here for cute boys, LOOK HOW CUTE THEY ARE" (mostly straight teenage girls). While it often comes in pair with horniness and stricte sexual fetishization, it isn't limited to it. My friend (a bi girl, for the record) sometimes sounds to me like too close to fetishization - it stuck with me how she for a good minute talked about how this one guy in a class discussion told her about his boyfriend. When she talked about it, she was basically like "And he said "my boyfriend", and it was so cute, he said that "my boyfriend" did this and that, so cute, "my boyfriend"". It wasn't cute what he or his boyfriend did or said, as she didn't even remember it, it was cute that the guy had a boyfriend. There is also a reason why straight ships are so often less popular or targeted, and why gay ships are the most popular - sure, queer people wanting queer content are a part of this, but fetishization also plays a part in it. While there are definitely many reasons for liking "fujoshi content" and a huge correlation between queer people and people who like it, fetishization isn't only a boogeyman. Sure, it is to some extent and sure, we should see a line between real life and fiction, but it is still an existing issue.

@BeneathFullMoon

3 ай бұрын

@@mervardent fetishization in BL definitely exists, but have you considered if it really does exists more often than in other genres of anime? when I stopped to think about it (used to jokingly hate fujoshis), I realized every single anime genre is filled with sexuality only being there for fetishistic ends, yet fujoshis got the tail end of the discourse while shonen fans or GL fans were comparatively not as judged. I told a person online I am bi and nb and ship mlm (not even consume BL, just ship mlm ships) and they said I am self-fetishizing and a queer-phobic queer. It's like this mass hysteria over something proportionately smaller than everyone makes it out to be. Fetishization is an anime culture problem first, not just a fujoshi problem. edit: it is kind of cute that he speaks positively about his boyfriend. where i live it's not common for lgbtq+ people to talk about it openly, it's heartwarming that he can talk about it. me and my bi boyfriend would also go "aww!" over something like that.

Also a fun fact: If Yoshiyuki Tomino is to be believed, the reason Gundam became as big as it is right now (it has the cultural relevance equivalent to Star Trek in Japan), it was Fujoshis who loved the show and made them keep going despite the low ratings of the initial airings and the show being almost cancelled and forced to slash to 43 episodes. So if you want someone to thank for your giant robot anime, thank Fujoshis.

@bethanybrookes8479

3 ай бұрын

Oh wow. And funnily enough, some of the most prevalent mlm fnafiction from the 70s USA was star trek. Maybe the women have always craved space yaoi.

@Lil1kv

3 ай бұрын

​@@bethanybrookes8479 the women yearn for the space gays

I'm glad this video exists. I'm a lesbian that consumes BL and GL and the online discourse surrounding fujoshi is ignorant. Lesbians have been SO fetishized and are subject to "corrective" assault but the men that consume lesbian porn and yuri don't get a fraction of hate fujoshi get.

@minorianna

3 ай бұрын

FR!!!

@fr0nk571

3 ай бұрын

Although there are wierd people out there, most of us are just trying to enjoy a story that has at least a bit of representation. I'm gay but I do read gl occasionally because the stories can be so cute. The media you consume isnt necessarily a direct reflection of what you're into, let's remember that.

@OneManCast

2 ай бұрын

@@fr0nk571 Glad people understand. I love yuri but I'm a straight male. I like it for the same reason you do. They're really, REALLY cute.

@raposojogadorgf8761

2 ай бұрын

The topics you're mentioning aren't not related at all. Rapists and porn consumers are not exactly the same. Both men and women who consume porn regardless of the genre are weak disgusting people that support the rotten sex industry, still most of them are victim slaves of the addicting drug that porn is. Lesbian porn consumers and Yuri consumers are different things though one could obviously be both. Also men and women who consume porn do it in secret and aren't even close to being as vocal as the loud fujoshis/fundanshis forcing ships and romanticizing disgusting series. Rotten girl/Rotten boy is now the perfect term for this fandom with an alarming amount of members being ok with abuse, assault, rape and non-con stuff.

@brightsoull

2 ай бұрын

Lesbians get fetishzed therefore it's okay to fetishize gay men, that doesn't sound reasonable

I also want people to realize that yaoi paddles aren't a "western" thing. They're extremely us centric. I went to every major convention in my country for years during that time period, and there was nothing like this ever. Yet guess what ? Fujoshi were still hated because they "ruined good manga with their gay ships". The homophobic and misogynistic roots of the hatred of fujoshi were really obvious to anyone back then, and it's truly fucked up that the discourse has somehow been transformed so much that young queer people on the internet are using the same rhetoric that was weaponized against queer manga fans a decade or 2 ago. But then seeing the rise of us puritanism and anti-queer discourse in general influencing the rest of the world, it's no surprise that even safe places like fandom are now reflecting those sentiments.

@Busha69

3 ай бұрын

Exactly THIS

@TindraSan

3 ай бұрын

I'm from Sweden and I only ever saw yaoi paddles at Swedish anime conventions like twice, once in a photo that was very obviously posed to look like someone was getting paddled so everyone were in on it, and once in real life at a convention I attended and as far as I could see they weren't paddling anyone just sorta walking around with it like it was just another otaku accessory they were carrying

@comicsans3537

3 ай бұрын

It sucks cuz we have to re-go over shit and it's so upsetting. SIT DOWN, YOU'RE LITERALLY 2 INCHES TALL AND NEED TO LEARN YOUR HISTORY!

fun fact; I'm currently in japan and they actually sell heartstopper in the BL section, because it is in fact, BL.

@EldritchOverlord

2 ай бұрын

Which is hilarious to me because Oseman did nothing but disparage SEA BL, putting it down while lifting her story up as "better" and not BL because no "icky problematic" content.

@witcherye

2 ай бұрын

of course it is

@sagebrown7590

2 ай бұрын

​@@EldritchOverlord honestly i love osemans work but this is definitely a valid criticism. I feel like the need to make everything unproblematic takes away from diversity that we need to see in queer stories

What's that smell? It's the smell of something great being cooked

As a gay man myself; people make too much of a fuss about fujoshis. It just looks like thinly veiled homophobia and misogyny to me

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

I believe it's more like a "the singular rotten apple decays the bunch"(I don't remember the exact saying), where the bad bunch is considered the norm and therefore assumed for everyone in that group to be just as bad. I don't think it's a case of homophobia, just a simple lack of understanding commonly seen in the internet. Misogyny may be a factor for some (like James or whatever that guy's name was) but I hope it isn't.

@luluanthem

Ай бұрын

@@DungEnjoyerr I think they might mean it is veiled homophobia and misogyny in the way those valid criticisms quickly became a witch hunt and widespread hatred for BL and fujoshi. It was probably pushed by people with a hidden (homophobic and sexist) agenda coopting progressive language. It's kind of complicated to explain it but there are people who literally get paid to push discourses online that will benefit conservative values without being obviously conservative.

I’m not very far into this yet, but I would like to mention something. I’m a gay trans man. Part of my queer awakening has been through BL and generally gay content. When I identified as female, I generally felt ashamed for enjoying this content because I could have been considered a fujoshi. Please, please stop making people feel ashamed for enjoying fictional content. There will always be weirdos out there, but as long as someone isn’t hurting anyone, let them consume whatever queer content they like. Gender doesn’t matter when it comes to enjoying a storyline and a relationship. This is probably not well written lol but I put my two cents out there

@havocsTeacher

3 ай бұрын

Yo nice, I basically said the same thing in my comment. Cool to see someone had a similar experience

@xiaomao133

3 ай бұрын

I totally understand this perspective

@EduardDreamer

3 ай бұрын

Lmao I had the EXACT experience Coming out as a gay trans dude really explained a lot about my love for yaoi really.

@evapunk522

3 ай бұрын

Yep...same for me basically. I'm a somewhat masculine leaning non-binary afab who definitely realized what I was through exploring BL and even writing it sometimes too. It got to the point where straight stories just triggered dysphoria and I just couldn't deal. I'm more comfortable with my female side a bit more now so it's not so bad, but I'm still non-binary and don't ever wanna be just fully male or female. But I definitely have BL to thank! Lol

@sand_eater101

3 ай бұрын

I absolutely understand this perspective, because you pretty much got my experience on the money.

I just started watching the video but holy f*** that tweet .. Ningguang and Beiduo are probably the most ship you talked about and you LITERALLY said that yae/raiden is your fav ship.. I hate people who never watched the content and rush to comment about it.

As a straight woman who likes yaoi/BL, here's my perspective; First of all, I have always seen a clear distinction between fantasy and reality. Even if MlM were a f*tish, I don't think it has to be bad as long as you're not actually f*tishizing real people! I would never look at an actual gay couple and genuinely wonder about who's a 'seme' or 'uke' lol that would just be weird! Yaoi characters are and will always be fictional. To go on with the topic of fictional characters, I would like to add that these fictional characters were (and perhaps are) originally created for a straight female audience, and so it is understandable that they might not be the best representation for actual queer people. But I believe that not all media has to be for everyone (not to say queer people cannot enjoy yaoi, of course). If you believe there is a lack of queer representation, advocate for more lgbtq+ works instead of trying to destroy the other content. Personally, the most basic reason I like yaoi is simply because I enjoy romance stories, and I like looking at men. More men = more fun. But also, ever since I was little I have never wanted to place or imagine myself in a story. I've always (role)played male characters in games from a very young age. BL for me is more enjoyable because it is further away from /me/. (Perhaps this is also why I tend to enjoy the yaoi with more equal dynamics more than those that include a very obviously small, submissive and feminine Uke). I also do like the forbidden love aspect many of the stories have, but can enjoy a simply wholesome story as well. Due to some mental barriers I have never been able to fall in love or have a relationship, and yaoi/BL for me is a safe and comfortable way to enjoy sexuality. Then, I would also like to make an argument for the more 'problematic' stories, or elements (Such as r*pe or violence). While it is important to understand that these should not be the norm, or seen as 'normal' in any way, I also do not believe the stories themselves or the people who like them are inherently bad. I do not believe that these elements have to translate into any real life perspective. Sometimes a fantasy is just a fantasy, and can in fact have a really different meaning underneath. Someone who likes action movies or anti-heroes doesn't necessarily endorse violence in real life. Gore is an existing genre, but not everyone who watches it wants to be a psychopathic murderer. In a way, I have to think about s/m culture, where people enjoy roleplaying power dynamics in safe environments. While I am not specifically into things like r*pe or violence, I did not particularly mind them in the stories I have read, as they were almost always a tool for drama or some sort of hidden desire, where an outside force breaks down the recipients own mental barriers that were holding them back. Something that would be completely unrealistic (and harmful!) in real life. But then, the story is not real life. This is not to say that there can in fact be very distasteful works out there. I just think there is a nuance and that not all is what it seems. (I have been assaulted in real life, and I know it's completely different.) TL;DR Fantasy is not real life, and there can be various (sometimes unconventional) ways to explore sexuality, or underlying desires or insecurities. It should not be a problem as long as no one is harming anyone irl.

@pinkribbun

3 ай бұрын

this felt like i was reading something written by me if I had the spoons to do it. X'D

@AllecYoon

3 ай бұрын

For me, I actually consume a lot of BL/GL stories. But I know about which one is fantasy and which one is my reality. I drew the line. It's like that's my own privacy liking bl/gl content. I won't let others bother my interest and I don't want to bother others (irl) with my interest.

@_.Max.i.mus._

3 ай бұрын

wish more people actually took time to think and evaluate shit like this before straight up harassing people they dont know. thank you!

@greyghost1365

3 ай бұрын

Thank you for expressing all the Things I could not!! Fiction is escapism, pure and simple:)

@EldritchOverlord

2 ай бұрын

This. All of this.

I really like one of the posted comments around 35:15 that says, "Just statistically, many more women are attracted to men than are attracted to exclusively women. Like, sexism exists, but so does math." Absolutely. Also, I hate that everything that women find sexually arousing that is not the normative purist view of heterosexuality is immediately labeled a fetish and simultaneously bad. On that note, why is a fetish "bad" anyway? Last time I checked, having erotic fantasies in your mind was a private enjoyment and no one else's business. Or better yet, if two consenting adults share that "fetish" they are having a blast together.

@angelos-ro9qw

3 ай бұрын

at then end of the day is always making women feel bad about their sexual lives :/

@Dojafish

3 ай бұрын

Lmao ,the hoops yall will go throught just to justify gay men . Also all this Bl and Yaoi shits is so heteronormative .

@himalayansalt32

2 ай бұрын

because fujoshis are trash just like male otakus

@katharsis101-

Ай бұрын

I think the problem is more so that this fetish specifically intersects with the fetishization of gay men and stuff, but hey, as long as you keep it to yourself and aren't a weirdo around real men, fetishizing them and shipping them, I guess it's aight. (though it does happen: see the intersection between fujoshis who are also kpop fans that start shipping the guys together)

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

I was about to say something but it pretty much was what the person above me said. The problem is the fetishization, not the fetish itself y'know?

E saying she didn't like pokemon caused me physical pain

@Dreigonix

3 ай бұрын

HERESY! :0

@TheSapphireLeo

3 ай бұрын

It is also speciesist and colonially coded in many ways? Just look at the pokemon community and all their abses? PETA also points out the issues and connctions to animal abses and enslavement?

@bossuhole

3 ай бұрын

​@@TheSapphireLeoPETA also kills thousands of animals every year and is HORRIBLY problematic in more ways than one. maybe don't use them as your source.

@quilbug1883

3 ай бұрын

@@TheSapphireLeoPlease tell me this is satire bffr

@Dreigonix

3 ай бұрын

@@TheSapphireLeo Troll detected! Nice try.

As a trans woman who enjoyed queer male ships before i transitioned, and still enjoy them now, its actually so disheartening to see how the way people perceived me liking these things changed so much. When i was a young teen, before i figured out my transness, wholesome MLM and BL content was so comforting to me to feel less alone, and even after I figured out my transness a couple years later at 16, I still kept up with those stories and found so much more media i loved. The change in how I was perceived as a gay boy vs a trans girl was night and day when it came to this. Suddenly i went from being a young person finding comforting content to seeing stuff about how the content wasnt for me, i was fetishizing men, and so many other things you mentioned (mind you i was still a minor when i started seeing these things from lots of adults online, and instead of questioning it, i internalized it very quickly). I started hiding or not posting about these things as much, because of these things. Honestly this video was so insightful and great to watch, so thank you.

@EduardDreamer

3 ай бұрын

My God, I know right? I was also called a feteshizier at some point when I was really into yaoi stuff, which made me feel ashamed of consuming such content, I even started to hate it Idk what's the deal with people consuming stuff like this,if it's comforting to them, if it's freeing to them let them have it Its so funny because years later I came out as a gay trans dude, which explains a lot about my love for yaoi Yes I now don't feel ashamed anymore, and I consume the yaoi content, I even make my own, and I think anyone can and is allowed to do that, doenst matter the gender or sexuality

@lovelysakurapetalsyt

3 ай бұрын

I have been called derogatory shit for liking LGBTQ+ media too, and I'm a cisgender woman. Of course, I don't know how men are treated for the most part, but I do know how women are treated, and it's like saying this is the reason r is "fine" by the extreme people's standards. Telling a freaking kid that they're a fujoshi or such and saying they'll be assaulted because they're worthless by adults gets you to internalize it. It's disgusting how some people act (And yes, I've been told the stuff I mentioned by full grown adults. It's sad when a kid has more awareness than an adult with a fully grown brain)

@thou_narsty_gremlin

3 ай бұрын

nooooo girl i'm so sorry :(( as a trans boi (who relates to that, going in the opposite direction of the smae pipeline haha, insert meme of fives and victor passing by in the car), i hope there's some comfort in me saying that many media content can be for anybody who wishes to consume it and do with it what they will? (eg. find comfort, or think critically about, or learn information, or loosely enjoy). *i didn't mean the 18+ stuff being viewed by kids, I meant like a myriad of perspectives in general anyways! doesn't matter what gender or sexual orientation somebody is, bl and gl content should not be shameful or de-individualizing in any way!!! enjoying/resonating/finding comfort in content is vastly different than going out of your way to force someone to comply against their will, or seeing their value as only one facet. If one kid likes bl because they see themselves represented and another kid likes it because they just really enjoy it, and it's called fetishization, then any of those kids/teen shows with all that mwah mwah straight-cis-love couples would ALSO be fetishization. srsly the double standard hrngh anyway sorry if I miscommunicated or misspoke, i'm sorry to everybody who went through these invalidating feelings and internal conflicts, take care and have a nice time of day :"D

@Fawkseyness

3 ай бұрын

So much queer discourse is so toxic online. I don't think I'll ever forgive the gatekeeper policing all the media you consume and how you engage with it types etc for their role in parroting my conversation therapist and having their misogynistic, ageist, homophobic, transphobic attacks on me validated and compounded by *so much* of the online queer community in would turn to as a scared isolated child. The absolute vitriol such spaces and people feel so comfortable aiming at anyone they at all see as "teen girls" stepping at all out of line in performing what everyone else in the world wants them to be. It needs to be ended like 20 years ago.

I used to have so much internalized homophobia and transphobia because of the unfortunately common "fem BL readers just fetishize gay men" viewpoint as a teen. I was a gay trans man (whose egg hadn't cracked yet) but BL gave me an outlet to explore those parts of my identity while staying safe and closeted until i was ready to come out on my own.

imo as a gay man i don’t mind fujoshis who just happen to enjoy mlm media where i get uncomfortable is when people make it their entire personality and exclusivity consume mlm media (especially the nsfw kind) or the people that try to exclude actual gay men from bl/yaoi spaces but apart from that it just bothers to see the majority of mlm media not be made with gay men in mind. for women, bl/yaoi is just another way for them to explore their sexuality meanwhile for actual gay men this is our only option for romantic media that represents us. the media in question not being made FOR US and instead a group of people that may or may not even be allys is very frustrating

@shadow0974

3 ай бұрын

I definitely agree

@hwc8709

3 ай бұрын

great comment, couldnt agree more. i have no problem with fujoshis, but theres something about the content that rubs me the wrong way sometimes because it can feel like theres no in between of hyper masculine bara stuff or very female orientated yaoi content

@KayKayBayForever

3 ай бұрын

No need to answer if you don’t feel like it, but what would be signs of mlm media that’s not made with gay men in mind? Like, how can you tell that it’s clearly made for women and not gay men? I’m not asking out of distrust, in case that wasn’t clear. :) I’m just wondering about the opposite side of things, since I’m a gay woman.

@shadow0974

3 ай бұрын

@@KayKayBayForever um idk tbh I find it hard to find who wrote it but maybe it's kinda just like them and it's very stereotypical I don't really know

@miikapm2

3 ай бұрын

@@KayKayBayForever a few easy signs would be: 1) you could replace the bottom with a woman and literally nothing about the character or the couples dynamic would change 2) when the write/artist obviously has no idea how gay people have sex: (f.e. penetrative sex without any kind of preparation. irl this would destroy the bottoms asshole and he‘d have to be sent to the hospital. it would also possibly leave shit all over the tops dick) 3) over-reliance on tropes and stereotypes: gay relationships are more complex than just top=dom=masc x bottom=sub=masc 4) the characters queerness starts and ends in the bedroom: being queer doesn’t just have an affect on who you have sex with. it affects the people you choose to be around. your beliefs and interests etc. obviously not every mlm story as to be about the queer experience but if you can tell that the writer/artist just took a straight man and a genderbent straight woman and made them boink its obvious that gay men were nowhere near the target audience

BL was actually a way for me to safely explore my sexuality because there really was no other media, especially western media, at the time that would portray non-straight dynamics.

the whole terf and anti-fujoshi overlap is unfortunately common i remember when the boyfriends webtoon author got tons of hate on twitter two years ago by both anti fujoshis and terfs alike. the way the terfs worded their "arguments" and hot takes were basically identical to how an anti-fujo would speak. so unless you were actively checking twitter profiles/timelines to identify a bigot, you wouldnt be able to tell them apart. it didn't help that they actively misgendered the author by calling him a "straight girl who fetishizes gay relationships" either. also fyi, im not a fan of boyfriends or its author personally as it's not my thing, this is just one of the more recent examples i can think of

@falcon_arkaig

3 ай бұрын

I haven't read Boyfriends, but I HATE it when people say the author is a "straight women who fetishizes gay men". It's so actively transphobic. I'm afraid that if I write or draw something like Boyfriends people would call me the same thing (as a Trans guy myself). (⁠ ⁠･ั⁠﹏⁠･ั⁠)

@blairfujin

3 ай бұрын

that's because most of current anti-fujo rhetoric comes from terfs spreading it on tumblr back when it was the main progressive fandom space

@exo_eve7575

3 ай бұрын

​@@falcon_arkaigI've read Boyfreinds and it's not nearly as bad as the Twitter space made it seem. It can be cringe in the sentences but that's really it. The story is sweet and never felt fetishizing at all.

@Hyzentley

2 ай бұрын

Yes right? It has such a "men bad and making or even just enjoying any media about men is anti-feminist" undertone, even if the more straightforward transphobic things are not mentioned. They are also SO biphobic. The amount of times I had my queerness questioned because I, as a bi women, did not exclusively write femslash/yuri (even if I actually do write quite a lot of it, but aparently it is not enough!) I also feel bi, trans and ace women are forced out of femslash spaces due to how intensely lesbian-focused, biphobic, transphobic and aphobic they are and how entitled and purity-focused at least a numerable amount of shippers in every single big femslash ship I know are. We are not safe in big femslash spaces, so of course we end up in m/f and slash/yaio

@falcon_arkaig

2 ай бұрын

@@Hyzentley Hate how much bisexuality is erased by both heterosexuals and the Lgbt+ community. Write whatever you want! God forbid a bisexual women write about men sometimes 😑. I bet your writing is great tho

No because Heartstopper fans would LOVE Sasaki and Miyano if they just gave BL a chance

@FeyiLambo-wj6bu

15 күн бұрын

A lot of us love it. Lol.

I'm glad that fujoshi are getting a slightly better reputation nowadays. I think the yaoi and yuri memes have actually helped a bit, as well as James Somerton getting called out for being a misogynist about BL works like Killing Stalking and The Untamed. Heck, even the shonen dudebros are actually happy that fujoshi are making yaoi fanart for Kagurabachi. Let's face it, fujoshi are the backbone of shonen fandoms. Naruto wouldn't have been THAT successful if it was ONLY little boys watching/reading it. It's the SasuNaru fans that put food on Kishimoto's plate.

@Fawkseyness

3 ай бұрын

I kinda wonder about the influence of one more mainstreaming source. South Park. With the tweek x Craig episode and overall ship. It literally defined yaoi and fujoshi terminology to an audience that largely has no idea how weeb Matt and Trey really are because most of the old guard fans really kinda hate weebs lol. But it basically just normalized the concept of girls (Asian instead of straight which is probably a good choice for side stepping discourse) shipping boys and it just being what makes the world have meaning. It's a well written story and dynamic and pretty much universally loved. And when it first came out, my gut reaction was to expect it to be mocking fujoshis and cringe ships. And it definitely knows that's where most people would be starting at with it while guiding it into a more positive direction. It feels almost engineered to transform public opinion on fujoshi and probably does have a lot of influence

@sharkie6135

3 ай бұрын

Killing/Stalking is not a BL

@halcyon.x

3 ай бұрын

KILLING STALKING IS NOT BL‼️

@Okami-Hope

3 ай бұрын

@@sharkie6135 it's not really a BL but since it was so popular and had a MLM pairing a lot of people called it that But it did make more people intressted in the BL genre as a lot of horror fans took a liking to it so people strated seeing BL as not just horni stories without plot and filled with clichés so eventho it's not really a love story it still did some good to the BL genre

@Okami-Hope

3 ай бұрын

I'm NOT saying that it's a romance, it's literally a horror novel (I couldn't read it cus it was so bloody and f up) BUT the straight versions of KS are still seen and considered romance despite them being toxic and people knowing it So what I'm saying isn't that KS is a romance, what I'm saying is that it got a lot of Horror fans into BL despite it not being one because people assumed it was one And I'm saying it's not that bad of a thing because it made people realize that it's not because a story got 2gay dudes in it that it will be just plotless and horni and cliché Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, I'm really bad at explaining

Oh man I remember being in early high school crying to my counselor that I was a bad person for shipping BL ships. She told me it was fine lol Didn’t appreciate getting shit on Tumblr for saying I like BL back in 2016 though. Still a fujoshi tho

@figlet6427

3 ай бұрын

I'm so sorry you went through that, but also imagining your counselor validating bl is so funnyy😭 bless their soul lmao

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

That pops a... Very interesting mental image, certainly.

In a world where female characters are fetishized for the male readers in most fiction and Japan especially, not representing "real straight relationship" or "real women" either (usually with awfully written romance and completely uninteresting female characters, making them harder to like or ship with someone), I always found the babycrying about fetishizing and not proper representation to be pure hypocrisy and double standards. As a bi person, I also never understood why people are offended people attracted by one sex/gender are attracted to said sex/gender. But that might be a bi perspective.

@billgibson9191

3 ай бұрын

Not sure I understand who is doing the babycrying here. If you're saying that gay men in the present day are hypocritical about f*tishization because they also somehow created the world we live in, and the content in which female characters are f*tishized then that's just not correct. And it's not like it's a double standard because I'm sure most gay men don't like the f*tishization/s*xualization of female characters either. It doesn't need to be 'good representation' since the content fujoshis make is for the fujoshis, but if women have the right to criticize content that doesn't appeal to them but features their gender (for the obvious reasons) then why can't gay men do the same? That feels a bit hypocritical imo. I'm just not sure what you're trying to say here, so I'm sorry if I got it wrong.

@Yume03

2 ай бұрын

@@billgibson9191I see mostly women and straight men complaining and lots of grandstanding over who fetishized which characters etc. it’s just purity tests. I also seen lots of gay men defend fujoshi on twitter. So I feel like it’s not just gay men criticizing fetishizing. What it’s a good outlook on this imo, is if they are fetishizing real gay people or just fictional characters. Because fictional characters aren’t real so it’s alright to ship them however ppl want, not the case with real breathing ppl though.

@billgibson9191

2 ай бұрын

@@Yume03 That's a good point. I agree with your outlook. Though I do wonder if the current times changing making LGBT spaces and content more acceptable is contributing to the blurring line between fiction and real life. I guess some of us want our fiction to feel like real life and when our genders and our lifestyles are put into fiction it feels strange to see them for the enjoyment of others instead. BL is great, don't get me wrong, but I think there'll always be some part of me that feels like gay guys are somehow unwelcome in this part of fiction, and in the conversations about it too.

@kirrilllovemask7827

Ай бұрын

Hey no hates but I'm just a bit confused cause I've seen ppl complained about BLS/Yaois having lots of romanticized r🍇pe and stalking behaviors. And I thought that make sense right? We wouldn't want that to be romanticized anyway, though I do know that there are more romanticize/Fetishzied horrible things towards women but is it really helping for calling people "baby crying" for not wanting romanticized SA and Stalking in their comics? Not that women don't have it worse ofc there are many cases and proofs for that but I'm just confused on how not wanting negatives things in gay comics are considered baby crying

@kirrilllovemask7827

Ай бұрын

Helloo no hate but I'm just confused, but how is complaining about F3tishziations towards 🍇 and S@ in BLs and Yoai considered "Baby crying?? Because it's a correct thing to be worried and uncomfy about right? I do wanna acknowledge that women especially in JP media are HEAVILY struggling with this wayyy more than us gay guys! And i do understand that fujoshis (mostly girls) gets hates too much just cuz they like gay media but when it comes to men who likes Yuri they don't get a fraction of the same hate the women who likes BLs get, which is horrible ofc especially for guys who is being weird as hell with lesbian medias, But I'm just confused on how not wanting this typa stuff to be F3tishzied is considered baby crying, I may be taking things wrong though, and I hope I don't come off as rude I am genuinely confused🙏

I’m a MLM who came of age in a very particular time when there was very little US MLM media easily available besides porn but yaoi was first starting to be available via the Internet, and I really appreciated its existence - the fact it was largely made by women for an audience that was largely women didn’t really bother me as I connected to a lot of it more than I did a lot of gay-oriented US media of the time. As long as creators and fans are respectful of actual MLM relationships I don’t see any reason to see them in anything other than a positive light.

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

You're a MULTI LEVEL MARKETING?!

As a gay trans dude the idea that I would uproot my entire social and professional life and drastically change my own body via years of medical interrogation and treatment just so I can live out my gross fujo dreams is dumb as hell. The reality of transition is I will not be a cute twinky uke femboy by the time I've been on T for a few years. If that was what I was into I'd just cosplay in bed. Fujo ladies are my sisters in fandom and I love them to pieces for the tons of top-tier content we share with one another but I am not one of them and my gender identity has nothing to do with my penchant for suzalulu and wriolette ty

@derekb4977

2 ай бұрын

There's no such thing as a gay trans man, you are a girl.

For me, I only partake in a majority of BL content because I really can’t read or intake content with women in rough sexual situations. I usually can read REALLY soft MxF ships or GL (I check religiously for tags and make sure the content is safe) but any rough stuff of those types of pairings and I really get more sad than enjoying anything. And I say that as a bi woman who’s had a good handful of relationships with men and women. As a woman, it’s just easier for me to enjoy the content and not checks tags as much when I read since I can clearly separate it from myself in every way. I’m not a boy, so I can enjoy BL and not feel uncomfortable. Of course this is just me but this really helped me grasp the concepts in my mind of why I enjoy BL so much and really helped me not feel bad about it at all. Very happy you made this video, E. I hope others can find their own peace and answers.

@2triedforthis830

3 ай бұрын

I also hate reading or watching things where woman are in a very uncomfortable situation in a s*xusl way cuz it makes me sick tbh, but it’s the same for BL as well cuz I genuinely hate seeing that stuff and it’s unfortunate that most of the stuff I see from it is exactly that

@aquaabouttogetfunky

3 ай бұрын

No but that is me fr. But it’s more of the fact that I can’t find any MxF or GL stories that are interesting without having to be reminded of what disadvantages or roles women are in. Characters in bl, regardless of roles are on somewhat equal playing fields and I can enjoy the plot without internalized misogyny kicking in

@Night.1

3 ай бұрын

Agreed 100%. I like how I can separate myself from everything while still enjoying the content.

@beingkindapissedoff

2 ай бұрын

Ive never read a Yuri that didnt make me ball my eyes out. Never read a Yuri that was JUST horny. Yaoi on the other hand,

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

While our reasonings are probably different I just have an aversion to content where a woman suffers some type of abuse (physical/psychological) but I'm way less affected or outright uncaring when a guy suffers despite being supposed to like guys and I just don't know why I hold that double standard.

“Says the tiny twinkish man” is something I wouldn’t expect in a more serious video and I did in fact let out a giggle 🙏

I support women's wrongs and rights‼️ himejoshis rise...

@himalayansalt32

2 ай бұрын

YUMEJOSHIS RISE

@destiny_ultimatedork675

2 ай бұрын

@@himalayansalt32 SO REAL WOMEN ARE AMAZING!!!!!

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

What are those terms?

@adaon2282

27 күн бұрын

@@DungEnjoyerr Himejoshi- woman who likes Yuri Yumejoshi- woman who likes x reader ships Fujin- person who likes bl (non gender conforming) Fujoshi- woman who likes yaoi Fudanshi- man who likes yaoi Himedanshi- man who likes Yuri Yumedanshi- man who likes x reader There’s all the terms 😋

@DungEnjoyerr

26 күн бұрын

@@adaon2282 thanks, my friend cultered in the shis of the world

As a trans woman, BL works really helped me find comfort with my queer identity (at that time), so the idea that now its not okay for me to still enjoy or find relatability in BL or GL works is so strange to me. I feel like at the end of the day, a lot of us in the LGBTQ+ community want to see more works that don't involve heterosexual relationships because we see it everywhere all the time.

I've been a fundanshi since I was 12 or 13. I can confidently say that there's nothing wrong with yaoi or fujoshi. There's always gonna be bad eggs in every fandom or space. Unlike online reactionaries I know the difference between weirdos and regular people who just wanna see two men who are in love kiss and be happy.

A bit off topic, but you said you hated pink as a teenager, and now your whole room is pink! I think that's beautiful.

Yuri fans that are males are usually never hated nearly as much as fujos Really makes you think

@asciinscion8709

3 ай бұрын

It all just boils down to people hating women for having interests, wow, how crazy is that!!!!

@theguiltysecondaccount2100

3 ай бұрын

Not like I want Himedanshi to be hated, but yeah… Even non anime people generally are more okay with 2 girls being together instead of 2 guys together, which is the obvious homophobia and catering to men’s tastes, but then even the names. Like E said and most people know, Fujoshi is meant to be an insult/(low tier) slur, compared to Himedanshi being such a nice and cute term for men who love Yuri. Like we’re rotten and trash but they’re soft and flowery? Really? The thinly veiled misogyny is crazy…

@user-zk8qz2yx2k

3 ай бұрын

@@theguiltysecondaccount2100 As a himedanshi I agree. Fujos are not as bad as they are portrayed by some weird people.

@pandascanrun

3 ай бұрын

@@theguiltysecondaccount2100 you def are right on that, mlm seeming more forbidden than wlw

@i.cs.zamodits

3 ай бұрын

What are you talking abouth? Men who consume lesbian erotica of any kind just generally accepted as gross, and I've never seen anyone argue againts calling it fetishization. What makes me think is why that is accepted as creepy, no questions asked, no arguments abouth it. But if women are weird abouth gay erotica there has to be a whole debate abouth if it's creepy or not.

Interestingly, a lot of Thai BL series are made by men, , written or co-written by men, directed by men, produced by men etc. But I do think throwing BL made by women under the bus is foolish. Series like Skam and Young Royals were written by women and are praised for excellent storytelling and portrayal of queer males. If it's a good story and with good characters, does the creator's gender really matter that much in the grand scheme of things? I mean, loads of straight men write romance novels under female pen-names, so how can you even know a BL manga written under a female pen-name isn't made by a man? You can't, unless the author reveals their identity. Even Heartstopper is made by an afab person. Trans men write BL, too. Even Lesbians write BL. It's a genre for everyone at this point, and even straight men can find BL they enjoy, because there's such a wide variety of stories out there now.

@username-gv6yf

3 ай бұрын

The majority of both diaspora and non-diaspora East Asian/South East Asian gay men enjoy BL as well. The attempt in framing BL as inherently "problematic" is just your typical white saviour complex.

saying asian bls cant count as beautiful love stories when the eighth sense exists is like saying anime is for kids when attack on titan exists

For me, as a straight woman that's recently diving into BL and GL series, I appreciate them not just because of the romance but also because they are a breath of fresh air in how they challenge heteronormativity and gender roles. I feel like there aren't really many straight romance series that challenge societal norms (even though they totally could), but you see so much of it in BL/GL series. It's also why while I like the romance genre, it's very hard for me to enjoy it when I see the female characters being mistreated by the male characters...like that's too real for me, I read fiction to escape LOL

@sappyzap

2 ай бұрын

as a lesbian, you're welcome into the GL space anytime as long as you remain respectful, I've bonded with straight women through yaoi and I wouldn't mind doing so with yuri as well! after all, the main focus is romance and fictional tropes 🫶🏻

@tori20128

Ай бұрын

Exactly the comment i need. I'm not afraid of rough sex depiction in a hetero relationship, nor do i find it unsafe reading about courtship between a man and a woman like others have suggested. I just simply do not enjoy girls and boys behaving in a typical way for their gender role and their romance being typical in terms of power dynamic, communication and progress. In that sense, yaoi is more unexpected, based on a more inherently equal footing between partners and basically free of gender role expectation. Maybe that explains why the shoujos i enjoy often include gender bender elements, or why i don't really read ABO

What I find interesting when it comes to BL discourse is that gay manga or gei komi is rarely mentioned. If you want gay stories created by gay men, they're out there! Unfortunately there’s not that many officially available in English, but "Massive: Gay Erotic Manga and the Men Who Make It" published by Fantagraphics is a good place to start. The interviews with gay mangaka are really interesting! The legendary Gengoroh Tagame is interviewed, and his opinion on BL is basically that the line between BL and gei komi is more blurry than we might think, and he's really not concerned with women enjoying such content lol. There’s also a great transcript from a TCAF 2015 panel with Gengoroh Tagame, Anne Ishii, and Leyla Aker on the subject called "Gengoroh Tagame Talks Gay Manga, “Bara,” BL and Scanlation". Check it out if you want to know more!

@Dojafish

3 ай бұрын

I think most people who are into gay Manga or literature may know this . But isn't as popular because of marketing and general audience taste

@AkatsukiHostClub

3 ай бұрын

@Dojafish Yeah, Tagame is very well known to people into gay manga, which is why I prefaced my comment in the context of BL discourse specifically. I guess one of my unstated points in this comment is that things people criticize BL for (not depicting reality, unhealthy relationships, etc) are present in gay manga as well (and all romance fiction tbh). To elaborate on a point I did state, prominent gay mangaka don't have an adversarial view of BL and don't gatekeep who can enjoy their work lol. It's more for people who don't know about gay manga and who may be interested in learning more.

what the person at 43:32 said was really well said. That people wont generalise for well like western media, but will for asian or women-liked media. this whole video was fantastic and I love your channel!

I remember seeing lesbian artists draw hot women and being surprised because I (a straight woman) didn’t feel objectified the way I often do when I see art drawn by straight men. That’s because the lesbian artists saw them as *people* not objects to get off on. There’s nothing wrong with straight women enjoying seeing men fall in love, or even lust. There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with straight men enjoying seeing women do the same. The problem is patriarchy which causes men, and even women, to view women as things rather than people.

Honestly though- it shouldn’t even be a problem for women are anyone for that matter to enjoy or binge read/watch gay stories. The idea that only gay men should watch bl is homophobic, why is it weird that I want to see two men fall in love and be happy together? Why is it that straight pairings are always totally fine, why is it totally okay for people to have totally heterosexual pairings but unacceptable to have totally homosexual pairings???? Like yes ofc I know some people go too far- but as someone who reads gl and bl I never compare any real world people to the fiction I’m reading….

@Habideers

Ай бұрын

Yes!! That's what I was thinking. It's such a hypocrite way of thinking tbh

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

I understand it's wrong to exclude a type of content to only one type of group but how is only gay men being allowed to watch BL homophobic? I'm not trying to offend I'm just really curious about the thinking process that went before it.

@incognitospaghet1452

Ай бұрын

@@DungEnjoyerr the idea that ONLY gay men should watch BL suggests that gay relationships in media is taboo and secluded onto one group of people, that no one can relate to a gay stories or simply enjoy them. It’s basically denying it the representation it needs for it to be understood. You must be some flavor of homophobic if you genuinely believe that no one can relate or sympathize with gay stories, especially when half the people making bl are gay men. And why should their stories be silenced to the world?

@totaltotal8481

Ай бұрын

@@DungEnjoyerr It's like: Everyone can watch hetero relationships because it's 'the norm', but gay relationships are 'niche', 'super different', 'can't possibly be related to if you aren't actually gay'. It's making a difference in the love and desire of people simply based on their sexuality and gender, when we want to arrive at a point where all love, no matter the sexuality and gender, is just love. Saying only gay men are allowed to watch BL is implying that everyone else couldn't possibly find any merit or enjoyment in a love story or even understand it just because it's 'gay', while still expecting everyone to relate to and be able to enjoy hetero romances, because you simply couldn't NOT do that no matter your sexuality (because it's so normal and natural and will never be 'offensive' to anyone). To me atleast, it's like: Ok so we really are saying gay people in love and straight people in love is A DIFFERENT KIND OF LOVE, which to me is super homophobic, instead of rightfully saying: The gender of people involved in the romance might be different from case to case, but it's still just romance and falling in love is normal, no matter who you are, so you can find things for you in any kind of romance story. Relatability and enjoyment should come from the themes and story provided in the romance, not what's specifically in someones pants or smth. It also strips people of the ability to truly relate to people who you don't have something in common with. Every straight person should relate to gay people simply on the fact that both fall in love, which is much more a common denominator than focusing on the differences so much, which would be gender and sexuality. It also takes away the fact that people consume/ enjoy romance media because of different reasons altogether. So it doesn't even necessarily have to be that you watch romance stories because you are attracted to the protagonists or looking for representation of your own possible romantic future (own sexuality), rather you might want to escape/ play around with gender norms (I myself for example enjoy gay romances because I can finally stop worrying about gender being a reason people in relationships treat each other like shit and especially women being harmed in hetero relationships. It hits too close to home like for many women enjoying bl and gl for example), so a lot of people don't even need to enjoy gay romances because of what they get (hot men for straight women for example) but what they DON'T get (misogyny and violence against women in relationships for straight women). So everyone should get media they relate and see themselves in, so yes, make bl and gl for actual gay people to resonate with it, but also, sexuality and gender aren't the only thing to relate to in romance stories, the same way race doesn't have to be a factor in relatability. That's too much of a strict binary, when everyone is different, simply put. Edit: Example I forgot: Straight men and gay women aren't the only people who enjoy lesbian porn for example. Straight women might simply enjoy it because they can relate more to the body sensations, like seeing women receive pleasure and like that a man inflicting pain or violence ISN'T a part of it.

@slendii366

26 күн бұрын

@@totaltotal8481Many people who are uncomfortable with non gay men reading BL are gay men themselves. Mainly due to an experience that’s unique to them being shipped in a package for the entertainment of heterosexual women. We don’t necessarily think it’s wrong for straight women to read it, but to say it doesn’t make some of us uncomfortable would be dishonest, but what makes us uncomfortable shouldn’t concern you and you should read what you’d like.

related to misogyny and regarding the "women can like men" - men aren't regularly accepted as objects of desire thanks to the patriarchy. they are supposed to be "guardians" and they are always put as the "subjects" to us women being "objects" (which in turn is a demeaning position according to this logic) so much so that not only misogynists will view their interpersonal relationships with women as some sort of ownership but ALSO society benefits this worldview. this means that in order for this "subject" to be considered an "object" (of desire) there MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG GOING ON!!! (sarcastically speaking of course) for most unknowing onlookers EVEN IF NOTHING BUT DESIRE IS GOING ON AND FROM A DISTANCE LIKE REALITY HAS TO FANTASY! which is one of the reasons why yuri is usually less critiqued (even in queer spaces!) and the men it may or may not be written for (since it's already a known fact that just because many people of a certain gender or who present in a certain manner consume something doesn't mean it's directed at them) can go about enjoying said genre with pretty much no issue whatsoever! even when they have ALSO shown bad behaviors comparable to the yaoi paddle incidents (incidents that as someone from LATAM I have never seen happen) such as harassing cosplayers, trying to "pay" for kisses and EVEN GOING AS FAR AS TRYING TO UNDRESS SAID COSPLAYERS!!! JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE DRESSED AS FEMALE CHARACTERS THEY LIKE!!! (which I have seen and had to stop multiple times when I was younger and went to conventions). being a fujoshi I've always seen this notion that women must do what's right ALL THE TIME and it's honestly tiring when we're speaking about characters that don't even exist. as a bisexual woman with a mostly queer environment surrounding me I KNOW, because I talk to the gay men in my life, of their struggles and do my best to show up for them - since you know, they exist!! focusing on fictional characters even feels DISRESPECTFUL when we take into account these ACTUAL, REAL struggles. anyways, I just wanted to unwind and ended up ranting. sorry if it's hard to understand - English is not my first language!

@Hyzentley

2 ай бұрын

Oh yeah, that makes so much sense!

as a gay boy i love fujoshis. you guys are the best. they are the most important people in the universe. nobody holds the power that a girl obsessed with boys kissing does

@rubiperezquitian8071

5 күн бұрын

zerochan's high quality fanarts taught me that yaoi is art

I loved yaoi specifically because of the feminine male characters. They were kind of the beginning of my non-binary awakening in a similar vein to venti was. The realization of “oh I don’t actually like being masculine in the slightest, I barely even like being male”

Screw the word "fetishization," I'm tired of hearing it. Watching two pretty boys kiss is fun and I'm glad that women gave it a try.

@lambybunny7173

3 ай бұрын

Absolutely. As a gay trans man, it feels like people are just throwing the word around to put down women. you aren't helping me by saying women can't look at boys kissing!! stop gatekeeping!!!

@tookawaii9765

3 ай бұрын

Thank you, it’s not about being gay it’s about BEING A GUY And guys are the center of attraction

@Des17S

2 ай бұрын

No I think the word is absolutely needed. Enjoy what you want but Fetishizing real people is strange. Your interest should not come off your screen or those pages. The Fetishizing of minority groups is something that should be talked about. I just think the way you worded the comment was a little...

@sabsain2399

2 ай бұрын

How do you even fetishize two guys kissing? That is absolutely nothing compared to the amount of media dedicated to making women, either lesbian or straight, look like nothing but tools of pleasure for cishet men Honestly, this whole "fujoshi" thing seems like a pretense for people to be misogynistic towards cishet women and nothing more

@coolcat6148

2 ай бұрын

@@Des17S this!! I hate how the OP glazed over the trend of sexually harassing strangers at conventions and just said "dont overgeneralize..." like it doesnt still happen, I used to hang around otaku circles until many of my adult fujoshi friends would sexually harass me and make me uncomfortable and forcing sexuality down my throat because i was the "uwu soft boy" of the group

I didn't even know Fujoshi was a derogatory term? A decade ago a classmate of mine would print out THICK BLs and read them in class like a textbook. It's was practically so normal that no one ever cared. "Oh, that's just our Fujoshi" My class would say.

@marocat4749

3 ай бұрын

I mean it started as self deragatory term as, you call us rotten,call us rotten then eh, we own it.

@CocoaRon

3 ай бұрын

Lol

@DazeyJellyfish

3 ай бұрын

Expect it’s not. Personally I think it sounds so pretty & I’m a Fujoshi. ❤

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

​@@DazeyJellyfishPast experiences with people who said "I'm a fujoshi and proud" gave me a pretty big negative bias towards people like you, but live your life! You competed against billions, you're one in a krillion, you deserve it.

@DazeyJellyfish

Ай бұрын

@@DungEnjoyerr whatever you say. You can’t stop someone for calling themselves a Fujoshi (:

I Want to Be A Wall is a manga about a lavender marriage between an aroace fujoshi and a gay man in love with his best friend that made my fem aroace ass feel so seen fr it just walked into my home and shot me point blank, man. Women are a lot easier to accidentally project onto so BL is the only type of romance that's comfortable to read. Also I remember a post on tumblr a few years back that pointed out that a LOT of bl fangirls ended up discovering they were themselves queer through bl because it's one of the biggest sources of accessible queer media... (Also let's be real a lot of people put it on the fans for not shipping or liking women in a series, but the women in question are usually cardboard cutouts written by men who just see them as eye candy, and an uncomfortable amount of yuri ships end up existing just to give these poorly written female characters better than they got, which is a lot of work and born from spite instead of love which no matter how many funny memes we make is not something that's fun to surround yourself with and gets tiring)

@materla4102

3 ай бұрын

Just went to read a few chapters after seeing your comment and... wow. Though I wish they would differenciate between aces and aros, it's sweet so far. And I got to this line: "What I like about BL is that all the characters are men. It's a whole other world, a place that has nothing to do with me. I can pretend like I don't feel out of place. It's a safe space for me." Which seems to really explain how I often feel about it too. It's the fujoshi to aroace pipeline I guess haha

@materla4102

3 ай бұрын

Okay, a few more pages later and I also feel like it walked into my home and shot me point blank haha oh no

@snowyches9886

3 ай бұрын

⁠​⁠@@materla4102What I don’t really understand about this is, it is a whole other world- if you yourself were in it, you WOULDNT fit in. If it really was a “safe space” you would fit in as you are, as a woman. But instead you’re “pretending” not to be a woman in this other world? What’s the joy in pretending to be someone else? (I don’t mean this in a bad way btw… I’m just trying to understand why people genuinely enjoy BL as a queer woman ;-;)

@materla4102

3 ай бұрын

@@snowyches9886 Haha, I'm a DnD player, a RPGs enjoyer. So what's the joy of pretending to be someone else? A great one 😄 At least for me. I can't speak for anyone else. Also my gender is a bit... well... agender, so I might not be the best example.

@snowyches9886

3 ай бұрын

⁠​⁠@@materla4102hmmm DND is a good point. I am a dnd player, but I guess I don’t find joy in acting out others romance particularly? Maybe it’s because romance is such a personal topic. Also, understandable.

As an avid Fujoshi of middle years, ain't nuthin' to be ashamed of.

For a while I thought I was a fujoshi, because I only really liked gay relationships, mainly male ones though. I even questioned if I had that much internalised misogyny because of that. Some critical thinking later I realised that, nope, it's not because I fetishize them, it's because their relationships are simply written to be way more meaningful in stories, because straight romance is usually really fucking boring. They don't feel like people who would actually like each other, it feels forced and like surface level attraction whereas same sex relationships are allowed to be truly fun and deep friends, or to have really interesting dynamics/rivalries etc. And about the misogyny, same thing applies to women in fiction, they fucking suck a lot of times😂 Compare that to couples like jinshi and maomao in the apothecary diaries, or mizu and taigen from blue eye samurai, and anyone can see how much better written these characters and their relationships are, and wouldn't you know it, I ship those two couples a lot!

@haroldtheylez

3 ай бұрын

mizu and taigen ship represent!!! [I also ship mizu and akemi... every ship with mizu is essentially queer lol]

@KayKayBayForever

3 ай бұрын

EXACTLY. I’ve been overly worried about being a fujoshi myself, even though I’m a (mostly) gay woman, so I don’t even get turned on by BL. But I mostly ship mlm ships, because of exactly the reasons you said.

@RushiaRenoku

3 ай бұрын

only gay relationships, its so hard to find good lesbian relationships

@KayKayBayForever

3 ай бұрын

@@RushiaRenoku SO HARD. It’s hard to find well written women characters in general, let alone one with interesting ship opportunities. I’ve found a couple I like, but it’s rare.

@amochikaay

3 ай бұрын

⁠@@RushiaRenokuFR, like I hate to admit it but a lot of lesbian ships to me are kinda boring? Like why can’t we get passionate homoerotic rivalries 😭

I WILL BE THERE NO MATTER WHAT

wherever would fandom culture be without fujos? they are an important part of the culture that must be preserved at all costs. for every fujo-wojak girl there is, there are at least 10 life changing fanfictions waiting to be read.

As a gay man myself (and now an academic) it is rather easy: Read everything, but just be aware that some people can have negative reinforcements to unpleasant opinions to some literature, but that shouldn't mean all people should be policed or vilified. Many people read Mein Kampf or other white nationalist works with an academic lens; the problem is with those who obsessively normalize hate books rather than look at them historically, but even that is a bad comparison, for two reasons: 1. BL / gay stories are not inherently hateful And just because some are problematic (esp. around consent issues) that's something that is found in a LOT of erotica and some romance. Not all writers have to be from a particular group in order to write about them, and inherently multiple character you write are not going to share your individual life experience. That doesn't make authors immune from critique about representation, but fi we demand that the only people who can write authentic books are the people who have lived experiences, then there would be no fiction, only autobiographies. 2. People having "fish-eyesed" M/M relationships -- well, here's a shocker -- straight men have done so far longer (and far less well represented ) to lesbian relationships for years. Bl and Yaoi hardly have a worse track record of representation than straight male generated lesbian erotica or romance. 3. ther eis a difference between what people fantasize about and how they act in public. If you fantasize about -- er, giant women stomping on you, say, have at. Read those stories. It's not my thing and I'll probably not read those stories, but what make you happy is all about you. The only problem is when someone can't have their mental fantasy playground and it bleeds into places outside the bedroom where they start demanding, say, all tall women to do a samba on their backside in public. (the equivalent of the Yaoi paddle person). Again, policing people's private joys (that are safe and consensual!) is par tof marginalizing queer people. Shipping Kirk and Spock isn't going to harm anyone. Just don't demand Shatner read your fanfic out loud in a cameo.

@totaltotal8481

Ай бұрын

Exactly. People read things and especially romance for different reasons. Many might read it because they want to see themselves in it and enjoy those private fantasies for themselves (so that would be a gay person watching gay media), but a lot of people also want to watch stuff they specifically don't see themselves in and in a genre dealing with romance and sex, many factors can influence why specifically you don't want to see yourself in what you read, often based on fucked up past experiences. (example: Straight Women reading bl, because it excludes women experiencing sexual violence and messed up relationships involving women, as it's too close to reality and might be triggering trauma. It might also be a way for straight women to experience romance without having to worry about massive power imbalances and expectations based on their gender. And also tbh, a lot of women in like straight media are just written horribly and very flatly in comparison to their male counterparts, so what are we supposed to do when we really just want good characters but our gender seems to always fuck it up?).

I wish you would’ve got into the internalized misogyny part of it because many woman also like bl because they don’t like to see woman in romantic relationships which is another issue that should be unpacked.

@noctap0d

3 ай бұрын

Although I've seen my fare share of this, I often wonder how often it happens because of bad written female characters. But I guess examining this two perspectives would be a video on itself.

@MrStrawberryPucca

3 ай бұрын

Havent seen the video yet but ive been thinking about this as well. People should read and write whatever they want but if you’re /only/ consuming media revolving around male characters thats probably something to unpack, and not just leave it at aknowledging it. One of my personal biggest pet peeves with a lot of BL manga/webtoons, as possibly backwards as it sounds, is that a lot of the time the very scarce female characters will just act like some kinda “bitchy” stereotype, or are just random pretty girls to make either of the MLs jealous or something. Its obviously not really something unique to BL, but the overall absence of any female characters whatsoever in the genre really makes me wish the writers didnt fall so easily to misogynistic tropes, due to the internalized misoginy in question. edit: missed a word lol

@maliniras

3 ай бұрын

nah cause I got side eye by a fellow fujoshi when they found out I also read/watch straight manga/anime lol. I can appreciate a story when it's good too

@little-miss-horror6036

3 ай бұрын

Yes this ^^^^ tbh this is why I couldn’t stand fushojis for a while and no I’m not talking about those that discover they’re trans, I had a trans male friend who enjoyed yaoi and they were the sweetest beans ever It’s just male yaoi fans to me tend to be less misogynistic than female yaoi fans, from my personal experience at least. But also… my big issue with fushoji culture is how gate keepey they get with male characters. Back in mary-sue witch hunt days, most people that bash those who ship their ocs with a canon character were almost always fushojis… and to me that’s when misogyny and ableism comes to lace. And some female fushojis I came across tend to be biphobic and lesbphobic. (Personal experience ) Fushoji culture as a whole needs to unpack this stuff. It sucks that terfs bother them when they mind their own business :/ but they also need to unpack misogyny, biphobia, lesbphobia, and ableism. It’s been an issue I always noticed with the culture with mainly the female fans. The male yaoi fans and trans men don’t bother me as much since in my experience, they just wanna vibe with their own indulgence.

@Hyzentley

2 ай бұрын

@@noctap0d Honestly given that every single time a fandom with actually well written female characters which are respected in the narrative crops up, these female characters will get focused on in said fandom, I think this is either a non-issue or much smaller of an issue than it is made out to be and mostly caused by the usual bad writing of female characters

As a fudanshi who is trans and gay, I really do thank you for this video. It gets more and more difficult everyday to feel like I can be myself on the internet and within my own communities without being pointed at and called disgusting or a freak. Even if the BL is problematic, who cares right? As long as the content or creator is not depicting or harming real people, I see no harm in it to consume. The point of fiction is to consume media in a realm of fantasies that would otherwise be impossible to achieve. The depictions are unrealistic for a reason. It is up to the reader themselves to separate fiction from reality and understand that the story they are reading is not a 1:1 reflection to the lives of real people, or real events that occur. This does stem into the topic of media literacy as well, but I won’t get too into that. A huge problem I tend to see within fandoms, especially for the widely popular Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure, is the use of the term “safe ship”, which I have only ever seen for mlm ships that the anti side of the fandoms have deemed as unproblematic and clean. It even gets worse when you realize most of the ships they deem as disgusting and problematic are the most popular ships within the Japanese and other Eastern fandoms… It’s wildly homophobic, misogynistic, racist, and purist. A lot of these rhetorics tend to also stem from Christo-Fascist viewpoints and Western nationalism. Tho no matter how much you try to explain it to these people, they label you as a ton of very horrible things and will threaten violence, or tell you to off yourself. Once again, a lot of it comes from within the queer community, those who claim to be leftists and on the right side of the fight against conservative values…without even realizing they are spouting the same rhetoric that Evangelical Christians would say to demonize the queer community still to this day. I could seriously go on and on about it, but I think I’ve gotten most of my point across. It’s so sad to see this happen in real time, and I hope that these people can turn around and realize the error of their ways. Much like I did when I was growing up.

@avivastudios2311

3 ай бұрын

I think people had a problem with fetization of gay men that happens in BL.

@EdenNeedsAYoutubeHandle

2 ай бұрын

the venn diagram of hating fujoshis and puritanical sex negativity is a circle

@avivastudios2311

2 ай бұрын

@@EdenNeedsAKZreadHandle Um, no. People just think fujoshis are weird.

@izayaryunosuke9067

Ай бұрын

How is not liking a popular Eastern ship racist?

@littlesquidprince4756

Ай бұрын

@@avivastudios2311 Please do ask yourself why you believe fujoshis are “weird”. If it weren’t for fujoshis, we wouldn’t have a good chunk of the media we have today pertaining to queer content

I have never once been annoyed by fujoshis online, however, every once and a while i will have an interaction online that plays out like this: I mention yaoi, or I mention or post art of a gay ship. Another user, who clearly hates fujoshis, calls me a fujo (often shortened, which is how you can tell they spend a lot of their free time furiously typing about this sort of stuff) and accuses me of fetishization. I one-up them by informing them that I am a man, and that as a man I am not bothered whatsoever by the man-on-man modern art that I just posted about. They immediately accuse me of being a trans man and continue with their tomfoolery as if nothing happened, still referring to me as female in most cases. (Accuse them of transphobia at this point and they usually deflect by boldly claiming that real trans men don't read yaoi.) I don't doubt the existence of trans yaoi fans, but I have to wonder if this concept of evil fujoshis transitioning to do pervy things to the poor helpless homosexuals might've started mainly as a strategy for anti-fujo trolls to save face in internet arguments whenever they accidentally bump into a gay dude. TL/DR: Anti-fujos are the worst. Yaoi is a gift from Gay Jesus. Browse responsibly my friends.

Thank you for bringing up himejoshi and himedanshi and the fact that fudanshi are actually boys who like BL, I hate it when anti-fujoshi mofos accuse fudanshi of "fEtIsHiZinG" wlw ☠☠☠ they like men dawg

I just wanna say it's funny how someone made an argument against BL saying dungeon meshi fandom isn't interested in the wlw ships cause like... I got into this series recently and tumblr is FLOODED with that lesbian dunmeshi content while i've only seen one funny sketch implying a male characters' bisexuality and that's it

@Hazyla

3 ай бұрын

Haha dungeon meshi sounds like one of the worst examples for a fandom that isn’t interested in wlw ships

@lambybunny7173

3 ай бұрын

i've seen so much of that catgirl and i don't even go looking for it. get it kitty, i suppose!

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

Dungeon Meshi Mentioned!!!

@user-pq4fc1mc7q

Ай бұрын

Yeah they don't actually care just about female characters they are just being homophobic... Same as the people who rant about "erasing women" when fandom doesn't ALSO reduce the flat female love interest to being that.

As someone who is a trans man and gay, I saw myself in a lot of the characters I read about but denied that I felt that I was a man until much later on in my life. BL was my first experience of the queer community and I am forever thankful that I began this journey. That being said, I still have a lot of internalized transphobia about whether I became a man just to love men, because I couldn't think of myself loving anybody as a woman because of the disconnect between being a woman and being myself. So yeah, it's still a journey I'm going through.

@IisLasagna

2 ай бұрын

I really wanna like to support you but 69

@derekb4977

2 ай бұрын

You are a woman!

*rubs hands together deviously* this is surely to be a delectable treat!

As an ace woman and a huge BL enjoyer, I can say that I always loved the genre as a way to dissociate from my own exeprience and body (in a sexual manner) and see behind what made me unconfortable. Sure some stories aren't great, but so are many others in other genre ? Not every story of one genre can be a perfect rep, and that's okay. Most of the stories i've liked were funny, silly and romantic and I never saw gay people IRL and drooled over them or imagined them in weird scenarios, that's just not it. As well, when growing up, most of the female protagonists of romance stories were very shy, quiet, and "perfect girl" archetype, in which i did not feel represented at all. At least in BL, the protagonists usually were more outspoken, silly and boy failures, which I found way more endearing

Okay, so. I feel like to you're missing some cultural context regarding the history behind Seme/Uke in BL and why it's like that. Seme/Uke is actually kind of an evolution or reference to the feudal Japanese practice of Shudo, which is basically a counterpart to ancient Greek pedastry, i.e. gay relationships involving a younger partner, referred to as a Wakashu with an older partner. Wakashu often would dress and present in a feminine way, but weren't considered women. It was something of a problematic practice just like pedastry was, but Shudo was still basically the only acceptable form of gay relationship in pre-modern Japan for a long time and this had an influence on early BL works and is why a lot of traditional BL featured an age gap of some kind. Also more androgynous looking men are just seen as attractive to women according to Japanese beauty standards.

Honestly I dont take opinions from twitter seriously bc most of the times theyre just miserable ppl that love hating on everything. Just let women do wtver they want if they arent harming a real person, I know a lot of fujoshis are queer or discover they are later and the genre helps them. The whole thing of fetizisation is kinda unserious to me bc ok I get it if its about people being homophobic irl but enjoying this stuff, now that is infuriating. But girls liking to read mlm stories without harming others? Please. Its not even a real issue, twitter people would go crazy if they know irl gay topics arent even about that lol. Anyway, great video!

@DazeyJellyfish

3 ай бұрын

Agree but with tiktok. Antis are so bored with their lives lol 😂

Oh boy do I have lots of thoughts about this subject. I think that lots of girls who are very vocally abusive towards fujoshi (often being fujoshi themselves) are over-performing because of how misinformed they are about the term, they feel insecure about their own life, their morals, their lack of power and want to over-compensate that by being as loud and violent as possible towards the group of 'fetishizers' (god I hate that word) because they truly believe that makes them 'good allies' and calling out fujoshi will make them 'safe' from scrutiny when they themselves are no different to the average fujoshi. It's not like every self-identified fujoshi is nice or respectful either, but it has become such a dirty word, every single discussion becomes into a short japanese pop culture history lesson because people can't be bothered to do research anymore to back up their shit. I've also noticed how often anti-fujoshi just haven't read a lot of BL and just have very shallow experiences with it, so that makes it easier for them to generalize the whole genre. They also just tend to be on its majority westerners who do this type of shit, so that adds entitlement to the whole injury.

Going on a bit of a rant here BUT I’d say that it’s not that we “don’t find value in female characters", rather, their value is minimal from conception. There is more variety in the male cast of whichever form of media product you choose to consume. Female characters happen to be so underwritten and/or underdeveloped that they tend to be blank, turning either into a boring cliché, falling into the gap moe trope or at best, wasting the potential they had. Most of the time, especially in shonen, female characters serve as a prop for male characters. Nezuko exists to be the motivation of Tanjiro, Hinata and Noelle/Mimosa serve to be the love interests of Naruto and Asta. Uraraka in the beginning was very driven by her own motivations, yet her later appearances happen to be always Deku-related, be it as emotional support for him, or recalling memories with him to motivate herself (Not that any of them are weak per se, but their main purpose is to be a prop for a male character, and there is little relevant information or development for them). Even in shoujo, a female focused genre, female characters are sometimes worse off (looking at you, Diabolik Lovers, Amnesia and Brothers Conflict).

@2triedforthis830

3 ай бұрын

You’re so right… and it’s just the sad reality of the female characters in schonen. I won’t say that’s the case now but… even in a more popular shonen of today like JJk literally non of the female cast is really that reverent aside from maki who is again there because of the authors obsession with Toji💀 and also how quickly sidelines they are from their male counterparts. Like it’s so disheartening and it really makes me upset cuz it’s a good thing for some shippers cuz “the female won’t get in the way cuz she’s not that important” which I find distasteful… Justice for these girls man

@moonxhyuna

3 ай бұрын

But even in media that has a majority female cast (well developed as characters) mlm ships still tend to be wayyy more popular than wlw ones. So there is something else to it, more than just the "underdeveloped" argument (though that's definitely a factor)

@marocat4749

3 ай бұрын

​​@@2triedforthis830Nobara was pretty hood,but her exit was pretty disrespectful. Chainsawman is pretty good. Power is the best, but there is a seriously good cast of female characters with their own personalities and flaws. Kobeni gets surprising likable, asa is good, the ghost devil lady is a character. And none of them have to be particular good people or are afraid to be written flawed.. And about jujutsu kaisen, its kinda disrespectful that everyone and their mother fifht sukuna,but not the tokyo students,like i bet broom girl offscreen developed something to help could be better than randos.

@marocat4749

3 ай бұрын

Yuki is good in diabolik lovers abridged 😂 seriously her arc of trying to escape from harassing weird vampires is fun and adds character.

@2triedforthis830

3 ай бұрын

@@marocat4749 it’s because all of the Kyoto students are weak asf… like even makumariu told them as much. Sucks so bad but then again most of gege’s characters barely get any development which it’s cuz of how the show is and it’s disappointing. Abt chain saw man, I abs love it a lot! People say the female cast gets sexulized but imo it’s not really that much… like not to the point where it gets annoying and also yeah kobeni and power are best girls I adore them a lot, and even asa is a great Protagonist in part 2

I personally don't see the problem with being a fujoshi Do whatever makes you happy queens! ❤

@DazeyJellyfish

3 ай бұрын

Thank you 😊 ❤

@Lunakitty1234

Ай бұрын

I love the romance genre. It’s fun . Yaoi, Yuri, shounen-ai, shoujo-ai, shoujo. The sexuality of the romance doesn’t matter to me, If I like something, I’ll watch/read anything.

Thank you so much for this video, E! As someone who has been in fandom for a very very long time, and had my MOTHER in fandom as an o.g. slash (as in Kirk/Spock) shipper... it's honestly been horrendous seeing how much people are using the term "fujoshi" or "fujo" as a slur again, when it *started* that way and was widely acknowledged as something to be reclaimed :/ let people enjoy their queer content in peace!! stop parroting misogynistic rhetoric!!

i always thought that alice oseman's comment on BL was really weird, because BL is just a genre, so the last time i went to japan i tried to look for heartstopper and there it was, in the BL section of the store, with "western BL comic" written on the cover... i like what you said about how there will always be bad works and good works, no matter the genre, but unfortunately it seems that queer people's attempts at sanitizing our stories, or the stories concerning us, has created a big feud within a community that is already ostrazised by those who aren't a part of it

Back in my Tumblr days, it was not uncommon for transphobes (specifically TERFs) to refer to me as a "fujoshi" simply because they saw that I was a gay trans man who (shocker) occasionally expressed interest in other men. They would assume that the only reason I was out as trans and gay was because I was "getting off to it", basically. From that, I've definitely had a different kind of position in the conversation about whether or not yaoi is "problematic". I've never really cared that much, but there's definitely a lot of nuance when it comes to my thoughts on the genre.

@narudayo5053

3 ай бұрын

lmao ive seen on reddit non fujoushi people trying to redefine what fujoushi mean... they like to say that fujoushi mean terf.... 💀

@jbisdavis

2 ай бұрын

@narudayo5053 that's nuts whattt 😭

I like male characters showing emotional and vulnerability but also love the breaking of gender roles in general (I'm agender, arospec, and a sex-averse ace who reads and writes explicit BL ship fics)

I don't think it's a crime that plenty of straight women like gay stuff for the same reason straight men like lesbian stuff - they're exclusively attracted to men, so a lot of them find it hotter to watch two men together than to watch a man with a woman that they're not attracted to. In my experience in fandom, the same men who would call women fujoshi (derogatory) would then turn around and rub one out to lesbian content. And yet the discussion always seemed to be about the evil, demonic fujos and not the actually violently homophobic men who got off on lesbian stuff. Huuuuuge misognistic double standard.

As I gay guy who's enjoyed BL and yaoi for more than a decade, it's really hard to decide whether BL/yaoi itself is problematic or not. I'd argue that it is by no means wrong to include problematic subjects in your writing BUT if most of the genre consists of problematic works... then, I'd say, we have a problem. Thankfully, I feel like we've been getting more respectful works these past years. Or at least less disrespectful ones.

@angelos-ro9qw

3 ай бұрын

We are getting tons of cute stuff in my opinion but the problematic ones are more popular, but i understand that, at the end of the day no matter gender or social context the ''problematic'' stuff catches more attention haha

@marocat4749

3 ай бұрын

Personally it has the romance genre problem. Like there are pretty good stories,even just wholesone, Just most of that content is either trashy wish fulfillment, or like way too sexonsessed without any else substance, And rapey dynamics too. But all of that are romance genre problems that this is the most content. Through there are pretty good,butyou really have to filter out. And go through recommendations. Stranger at the shore is pretty wholesome , and good. Like the drama is honest to god miscommunication, other perspectives and regular personal drama, and expectations,and they talk it out, even later when one fearsit gets stale,they talk it out.

@ChiweeNya

3 ай бұрын

I avoided BL shows for years because all I've seen from it was problematic and/or abusive relationships. I didn't get why people liked it. I thought maybe it wasn't my thing, even though I'm a sucker for romance. It wasn't before I watched Sasaki to Miyano, a super wholesome show, that I got into it. Now I watch a lot of bl. But I still steer clear of the ones that seem problematic. Tbf I also try to avoid problematic straight romances too.

the fact that the terms fudanshi and himedanshi aren't even that well known really shows how women are clearly the targeted group when it comes to being shamed for what media they consume

The intro is actually why I consume more "yoai".Anytime I tried to enjoy a wlw ship, Toxic wlw shippers ruined it for me especially when they hated sm on mlm ships and how they get more content. I closed off more when consuming wlw content imo wlw shippers get a bad rep from very loud and very annoying group of folk who insult their fellow queer ships I'm tired of it. it turned all my wlw content into ocs which I never shared bc of how toxic it got. (sorry for the rant I'm a Lesbian who wants to look at wlw content more and enjoy it but I also enjoy mlm stories from time to time and those who insult the other side makes me wanna avoid wlw content its sad really.) edit - Bl / Yoai was my first look at a world where liking the same gender was seen as ok and it really helped me realize I myself was queer. It sucks that fujo gets such a bad rep these days.

@himalayansalt32

2 ай бұрын

Fujoshis absolutely hate straight girls and lesbian women calling them boring and lesbian relationships awful. Fujoshis have sent death treats to female creators with het ships and doujinshi authors. They loathe women who enjoy their womanhood and sexuality and want to express it. Saying this as a queer woman.

I wanted to add some of my own expirience from a person who has encountered the 'foojoshi' out in the wild, with big quotas bc even they dont fit all the whole steriotypes. First was my friend who were both realy teens 12-15. She wrote wattpad stories, she shipped boys in her class and even i joined in on her for the giggles, she had a lot of 'lemon' fics over so many fandoms and often had a stash of BL. But she was also a great dancer, the most athletic girl ive ever seen, she was healthy, fit, i cant remeber what she liked to study but she did. She was the most normal type of person you could find, and unless you were her friend you wouldnt know she liked bl. Then came another friend who was from an indigenous background, she had a room full of manga posters (printed posters bc no one could afford fakes much less official art and most of the posters where those tabloids from pintrest of new animes) she liked k pop and Bl, and often amed a lot of BL that even I couldnt have known, but she liked the wholesome ones the most, she liked more of the fluff side (and yeah, a lot of m preg wholesome stories) she now is trying to go for a marketing career and is living in another country on her own doing her best. She knows how to speak three lenguages as well (her native, spanish and english) ANd my last friend was someone who was the epidome of BL fan, she liked smut fic, she would not read any other romance except BL, and she could not read BL unless tehre was smut, she would often talk about yaoi like it was the only thing on her mind she would be obessed to the point were most people in class just *knew* she liked bl and was a big otaku. She liked k pop as well, was a huge fan of straykids, and of course wrote chalix (?) fics of them. And yet she was the best at class, she was righfully the most confident to show presentations, she knew how to be a leader, she knew how to work and always spoke her mind which helped getting closer around her. She was also a bit more on the lesbian side, weirdly enough. She had tried her best to make her mother proud as much as possible, and even when she was seen as our top student it wasnt enough. All three of them where ostricized (myself more included bc i had openly said I was Bi and an otaku(yes, openly said the word) when I was young, so the boys hated me a LOT. Not enough to cause bullying thankfully.) in one way or another, but they didnt care because, well we had each other, we were happy, and we had our own problem sto deal with life, from moving to another country, to family problems, to conservative values, to finding that we were queer, to the hate (or leftout) of other students because we were bad at socializing. We just found ourselves and were happy. in all honestly I was probably the worst outof the group, I watched gruesome and horror BL, I liked it because of, well the exploring of the worst taboo subjects and the tragedy that comes with it, I had also felt desintizied by most taboo subjects (not that I ever cononed it, I just got to puke less) due to my inherent knowledge of mythology and history, so most of that kind of BL was less 'turn on' and more like watching saw. Ive since stopped liking my past actions but once in a while I do read it if the lore is just too good to pass up. I since began to notice that, we are all weird, and thats normal. We even found more friends in other classrooms because we liked bl and it became easier to use as a conversation subject. None of us would have been the types of people we are if we hadnt connected, and if we hadnt found a liking to Bl, from the most greuome to deep horror to fantasy and grand lore to the slice of life and comedic, we wouldnt have been friends at all. Its...weird, because all of us always thought we were the worst kind of people to ship thee things, we were seen as degenerates even by our male friends, much more by the others. We were meant to get drunk adn party and sociallize about high school drama, not *waves hands* talka bout our favorite bls. We were meant to be something else, and yet we became so much more just by being friends. In a Latam conservative culture, where people still hadnt legalized homosexuality, I think that whole shift meant... a lot to me. And it meant a lot to all of my friends as well.

Damn, this video really spoke to me. As a cis, gay guy who always had icky feelings regarding yaoi because of reasons you stated and named as valid criticism. This was the first time that someone adressed those things and I feel like someone from the inside finally understood my point of view. On the other hand I realize that I have been kinda reactionary in my way of thinking about the genre. It might be because I only encountered problematic Fujoshi's in real life which definitely impacted my perception of Fujoshi's as a whole. Regardless, you helped me to understand that I generalised things and failed to see lots of nuances and I thank you for that. Edit: just got to the Terf Section and I am shocked. Those are disgusting statements and I'm baffled by the amount of transphobia on display

I mostly just find it funny how defensive fujoshi's are about the sexual aspect of it, even though they of course have good reason to be. "Why do you like stories about guys in sexual relationships with each other?" and "because it turns me on" is the last reason any of them would give. I get the need to avoid being labeled a sexual being because of the sex negative society we live in, especially as a woman, but I ultimately think it's self defeating. Like sex and sexual fantasy are completely normal and they don't have to only be relegated to the realm of "porn," as the sex conservative mainstream has labeled pretty much all media that is sexually explicit. We should view sexuality as good by default, not with skepticism, that way we don't have to purify our desires in order to enjoy them. It's that attitude of self-justification that often leads to sanctifying your own sexual fantasies while demonizing others' that leads to these endless fights over whose sexuality is valid. As long as we view sexuality as inherently harmful we will forever be stuck in this shame loop. Be creative, be "weird," you'll probably find out that, whatever it is, it's pretty common. End the false restrictive binary between sexual and non-sexual media, understand that sexual fantasies do not always reflect desires one would want to live out (and that this is their strength,) and embrace that sexuality and sexual fantasy are completely natural parts of being human.

@freakazoidddd

Ай бұрын

im in love with you for this comment

I feel like early 2000's BL/Yaoi is a really bad example of the genre but since it's what got most into it, it pops up here and there so people new to the genre and with a modern mindset are lead to believe everyone is fetishizing men and putting them into stereotypes. Back when it was just the community nobody questioned one another and just enjoyed the fiction we consumed, nowadays I can see why so many tropes and works are considered bad. My first Yaoi was Junjo Romantica and it basically starts out with sexual assault and constant ignorance to consent and boundaries. Although since keeping up with the manga ever since, everything has undergone change and that's what people tend to forget. Looking at the Anime/Manga of Junjo Romantica then and now is a good example of time changing within the genre and community. People like to critisize the past like it's the future for everything but looking at Junjo Romantica now shows one of the healthiest relationships in recent media. There'll always be toxic tropes as with any genre but BL has been popular and known for early works or recent bad examples like Jinx or Killing Stalking (which isn't BL but depicts 2 men interacting sexually) so it's easy to assume an entire community with a bad rep. is surely as depraved as everyone thinks they are. It's fiction to enjoy with a hint of truth to real life in some works, a genre many enjoy that has been dragged and shamed into the public eye of people that had no real exposure to many BL in the first place.

I actually didn’t realize people were hating on our love of gay love stories until I saw it on a KZread comment section- I’m kind of glad because that also meant it took forever for me to see people talk about fujos like that.

I do think the big problem with the term "yaoi" stems from encompassing a genre that attempts to tell gay romance stories while also being fundamentally erotica for people that are not the presumed straight man at the same time. The sexual violence seen in the worst yaois is typical, almost expected, in literally any other type of dojinshi, when it comes to fandom content it is practically a copy paste of the exact same “plot” progression that is seen in them. If the argument is that this type of sexual fantasy has no reason to exist then we should have our eyes turned to the broader landscape of the industry imo

@marocat4749

3 ай бұрын

Yeah its kinda like the problem romance has. Most is horny erotica,or plain trashy wish fulfillment, that has a right to exist,but not really a good romance.

The yaoi paddle is objectively hilarious

@IisLasagna

2 ай бұрын

Imagine a parent buys it to use for a family trip to a lake and their child is like: "Mom, no..."

(for some context, i'm a transman) As much as i would like to defend fujoshis, the women i know that enjoy BL stories are also the girls that fell away from the idea of defending women and queer rights -cus they started dating shitposters- and won't even back up with me(the only openly queer student in my class) when i try to defend myself from the homophobic/transphobic teachers, but then fetichize gay men in the privacy of their phones (a lot of times talk dirt about transfem/gay sex). They will consume gay corn (the mangas they read can be considered that, bluring out a d1ck doesn't not make it nsfw) and then be grossed out when i tell them that i make transgender characters (also i speak spanish and they use the not-so-accepted 'elle' neutral pronoun as a joke while invalidating non-binary identities at the same time). For me, this isn't a hypothetical situation, i'm freaking living it, and it's hell. I literally know ONE bl loving girl that isn't this way, she's my best friend and probably queer(also the only person that actually treats me like a man) so i guess it makes sense that she isn't a creep. Also, to clarify, i've been reading queer love(mostly mlm) stories for some really long time, but i do it because i myself am a gay man. I do not wish for straight girls to just stop reading bl, i just want you to be more concious of queers problems and act as an ally while you do it, nothing more. Just, please, keep being a good person and... i guess don't fall in love with shitposters and anti-feminazis.

> do you consider bl to be good queer representation The way this question is phrased illustrates a point about how limiting positive terms can be. I ask back, what is positive queer representation? I would say it's when queer people are represented as full, complex people, with agency in their own stories. Which is lovely, but it's a big scary, subjective goal to have as an enthusiast of anything. The trash that permeates the genre, besides being exactly what allows the "good representation" to exist, is ultimately scratching different itches and has its own place, value and importance. A genre cannot be contained by its good representation, the good representation cannot be the justification that allows for us to "put up with the rest" The creators of original bl stories are usually a person or two for each. To make their work be "acceptable" only if they reach an arbitrary level of "good" kills any creativity they can have

as a trans guy i was kind of afraid to say that i liked yaoi because it was always said to be made BY women FOR women so if I liked it, that meant I wasn't a real man. I'm glad yaoi isn't as much of a dirty word anymore and people can accept that a lot of different people enjoy it!

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

It still is, haven't you heard silly boy? It's their way of taking revenge on us, real men of the united states, for prohibiting their right to vote for so many years. GOD BLESS AMERICA🦅🦅

@DungEnjoyerr

Ай бұрын

No wait a minute I meant it into a more "They are making fun of us" way not "They are right and it's only for women" way sorry

i remember justifying my interest in yaoi by saying "i'm like those guys who like watching girl on girl cuz 2 girls is better than 1" while having a lot of internalized homophobia and misogyny. For context I found out I'm queer and probably from reading bl, I think there's not a lot of spaces for women geared 18+ content leading into yaoi's popularity is that it's a space not dominated by cis het men and won't be. I also think because of how women's sexuality is shunned it's hard to explore ,which explains why i tried explaining my sexuality in likeness to cis het men because at the time it was all i knew. im not sure if i worded this right but this is my experience-

@himalayansalt32

2 ай бұрын

you are and other girls are replacing yourselves with men. You can have female-dominated spaces with the female characters being asexual, straight or lesbian.

I agree with what someone said about everything being okay as long as it doesn't bring harm to real life people. So I guess just be normal around gay men? The same goes to guys who enjoy Yuri ships. I feel like the issue of fetishising queer couples in real life should be treated as a separate issue to just people consuming queer media.

E simply will not miss, always cooking YES CHEF!!!!

A note on the idea that Western depiction of queerness being seen as better, aside from the obvious racism, is that there's cultural subtext and translation bumps that come with the struggle of localization. What we're getting in doujinshi and other Asian media is an interpretation of the raw material. What some might perceive as unrealistic or whatever else very well may be just cultural differences.

This is such a good video! As a gay man myself, I am very into the BL genre. I read it, I write a lot of it, because... I am a gay man. I'm drawn to BL relationships because it's something I can personally relate to, but anyone can enjoy it no matter their gender identity, sexuality, anything. There was never a rule that you had to personally relate to something in order to enjoy it, contribute to it, or just be a part of it. There's nothing wrong with fujoshis or yaoi. The only thing that can be wrong with something is if IRL people are harmed by it and that goes for literally anything and everything. If there's two stories that are the exact same, the only difference being one of them has a straight relationship as the main romance and the other one has a BL relationship as the main romance, there's nothing wrong with someone, whether they're a gay man, a straight woman, or anyone being more drawn to the BL one specifically because the romance is between two men. The reason why people are more drawn to BL doesn't matter. It could be an attempt at escaping heteronormativity as much as possible, it could be because it's new and exciting, it could be because it's more relateable in whatever way possible, it could literally just be that two men dating is more entertaining to them than a man and a woman dating, and that's perfectly okay. And at the end of the day, who the hell cares? I know I don't, I'm just a man who loves men and loves consuming media that depicts relateable romances, no matter who created the media either if it was by another gay man, a straight woman, or anyone. The gender and sexuality of the creator doesn't matter to me. The only thing that matters to me is if it's an enjoyable BL story, and what we find enjoyable is subjective. If I don't enjoy a BL story, then I just accept it's not for me and move on, no reason to attack anyone about it. Another thing I'd like to add is that I'm very glad you brought up the transphobia surrounding this issue. I didn't even know that existed until now, which is crazy to think about considering I am transgender, one of my oldest memories of realizing it relating to my early days of consuming BL media. Before I realized I was a man, I thought I was just a fujoshi. Turned out I was just drawn to BL because I was a gay man and it didn't take long to figure out for me. Those people calling gay trans men "obsessed fujoshis trying to live in a BL" or whatever makes me sick and tbh, I was originally unsure about my gender identity when I first realized I was transgender because I was paranoid about that same thought that I imagined on my own. I was also a lot younger at the time, dealing with puberty and my thought process was all over the place. In terms of my gender identity now, yeah, I'm a man. I'm turning twenty years old in April, so I've now lived seven to eight years being aware of my gender identity. Living my teen years and into my early adulthood as my gender as well as educating myself as time went on thankfully made me so much more confident about my identity compared to when I first came out. Hell, I recently got top surgery, I'm not even done recovery yet and I'm already the happiest so far in my life I've ever been about my gender expression. Anyways, I'm not a fujoshi and there's nothing wrong with them. I'm a gay man who enjoys reading and writing about gay men and there's nothing wrong with people who also enjoy that even if they aren't gay men themselves.

I am a pansexual woman, I can enjoy every kind of romance under the sun as long as its well written. Yaoi was what made me think of other possibilities other than the heterosexual couples.