So...erm, who is Self for?

I like Wilde and he is very witty but he has not had the wide reaching impact of George Orwell. The left wing, Will wrote for Blair, have a difficult relationship with George Orwell because he was a socialist but then in 1938 started criticising Stalin’s Moscow trials which he called show trials. Also from someone who criticised democracy he turned to praise it in The Lion and the Unicorn. 1984 may have truth in Stalin’s Soviet Union and Mao’s China but not the UK and US.

@TheClemcaster

4 жыл бұрын

Why would someone on the left necessarily give a shit what Orwell said about Stalin? He/She might might believe Russia's greatest tragedy was that it was Stalin rather Trotsky that prevailed. Self hit the nail etc about us fetishising Orwell, but I do think it would be rather remiss not to accept that we are now fully under surveillance. What was it that Self observed rather waspishly about the English and reading? He could have just as easily remarked on the facile nature of our daily lives.

@stephensharp3033

4 ай бұрын

It was a fascist called Thatcher who ruled Britain in 1984.

was will self drunk. i hope so.

1984 masterpiece in didacticism of the best kind. Burmese days masterpiece. and of dobbing in of traitors philby et al he dobbed them in

Self is getting more and more ridiculous, there was a time when his annoying style was partly tolerable for a few good ideas he would share in performance, but no more.

@makadir1

4 жыл бұрын

You sound like the sort of person who knows what they like and understand even even less that which you dont.

@TerryStewart32

4 жыл бұрын

I totally agree and have been saying this for years. He's way pass middle age and pushing 60 years old. The school boy humour is off putting and make it seems like he's just a middle age boy or a man who refuse to grow up or acknowledge his age

@TheClemcaster

4 жыл бұрын

@@TerryStewart32 Who cares what you've been saying for years? And what is this 'school-boy humour shit?' He's speaking at Cambridge University Nathan, it's not primary school. For some of us, who find the softly congealing formality of the conservative, with their curious suspicion of intellectuality and paucity of humour - to which Self alluded and you exemplify - I would say; you're just going to have to live with it Nathan old stick.

Orwell was a good writer, but massively overrated. I think he's a misogynist too. Is there a sympathetic or strong female character in Animal Farm?

@haydenbarnes5110

4 жыл бұрын

Tom Ewens It’s about animals

@haydenbarnes5110

4 жыл бұрын

Alasdair Ogilvie (Student) I mean, yeah. It’s an historical allegory: of course there’s no strong female character

@trewens

4 жыл бұрын

And Hayden, all of Orwell's books, that I've read, are like that! He's an awful writer.

@haydenbarnes5110

4 жыл бұрын

Tom Ewens Julia’s not a strong character?

@trewens

4 жыл бұрын

@@haydenbarnes5110 no, she isn't. She has no depth, as a character. She isn't intelligent or curious, we aren't told anything about her background, are we? She's just the love interest.

Down and out in Paris and London is ok, but not great. Same with Homage to Catalonia. No good female characters there either. And completely humourless as Self says. Not great.

@baronmeduse

4 жыл бұрын

These are common criticisms against Orwell. It's really a critique against the Orwell-on-a-pedestal, which is fair enough, but a form of straw-man. I read Orwell as a writer, not as a worshipper and so I don't feel let-down or need to have a 'critical turn'. Will Self seems drunk here and not a little seedy in his humour. Has Will Self ever written a good female character?

@trewens

4 жыл бұрын

@@baronmeduse I don't know, I haven't read Self. But the point he's making, and which I agree with, is that although Orwell was a good writer, and his books are worth reading, he was not a great writer.

@trewens

4 жыл бұрын

@@baronmeduse I take your point about it being a straw-man argument though. Perhaps if Self had had more time he would go on to say that there were plenty of other writers writing at the same time as Orwell who deserve to be read more, e.g (Nabokov, Hemmingway, Greene)?

@baronmeduse

4 жыл бұрын

@@trewens I suppose it's my turn now, in that I find Hemingway unutterably tedious. A theatrical representation of the 'real man', self-conscious adventurer. All of the above authors were discussed by Orwell as reviewer when he was a literary editor at Tribune. Greene is one of my favourite novelists, though I think Orwell keenly deconstructed his shtick: erect a self-created religious/moral problem (from a Catholic perspective) then watch the protagonist (always a man, though no-one minds) unravel while he wrestles with it.

@rhysclarke2209

2 жыл бұрын

I personally found "Keep the Apidistra Flying" hilarious at times, and there are numerous examples of dry humour in his works of non-fiction, for example, in "The Road to Wigan Pier" where Orwell makes reference to the rather dodgy way in which local officials prioritise spending money on the town hall as opposed to houses for the working classes. I certainly wouldn't describe him as a comic writer in the same way you might categorise Wilde or Amis, but I think you find find a dry, dark sense of humour pervading his work Thats just my opinion, though.