This is 100% true, and I'll add that another way to cheat the test is to pull the filament extremely tight. It should be pulled just tight enough to take out any slack. Or of course you can use the pre-strung blanks, but those will read about 20% lower than the reel-type holder. I still find the BESS tester to be an invaluable tool for improving and checking on MY sharpening, which is the reason to have one (not to show off).

@BladeLabMiami

Жыл бұрын

@@JREwing-se2wk The instructions say essentially what I said above: "The goal here is to simply pull the test media across the gap in the fixture with no slack (slight tension) in the test media. Do not over tension the test media." Tension doesn't have the same impact as speed, so it's not super critical. The difference between correct tension and overtightening is only about 15g. If you do the test the right way the results are very repeatable. I have the PT50B machine which reads to the nearest 5g, and I'd say that's about what the margin of error is for this system. That's why I chose the somewhat cheaper PT50B over the PT50A which reads to the nearest 1g.

@littlejackalo5326

Жыл бұрын

You buy pre set filaments. They're stretched across a plastic tab, like one of those tooth flossers. It's not as variable as he's making it out to be.

@BladeLabMiami

Жыл бұрын

@@littlejackalo5326 I agree that the test clips would be best for comparing results on KZread. But this is what Edge on Up says about them: "While test clips utilize the same test media that is found in our TM02 test media canisters, DTC100 test clips are not BESS CERTIFIED and are useful for highly repeatible relative edge measurements only. Test clip measurements yield approximately 80% of the force required when using our BESS CERTIFIED ATF10G fixture."

@joshuarosenblatt

9 ай бұрын

You can buy the protest strips if you want consistency Or. You can get a magnetic clip and use a specific weight (ie: 100 grams) to pull the wire taught each time so you can at least create your own consistency as best as possible

I appreciate the honesty! Keeping it real is why everyone loves you and definitely never hold back.

Thanks a lot Jerad. We talked about it during a live and I was waiting for this video and explanations 👍

Always keeping it 💯 Jerad! Great stuff!

Always appreciate your honesty Jerad. Thats why we watch and trust you.

This video was constructed very well. Really informative with good pacing.

Thank you for showing us this! I hope you don't get to much flack for it. It was really informative, and it's good to keep it honest!

Great video. Thanks for sharing and making the community a better place.

Great video man!! I've seen those crazy low BESS scores and have really wondered what was going on. I own a BESS tester and always do three cut averages when I'm serious about it. IMO you have to question your own results when doing any kind of testing. It's very easy to fool yourself when you're motivated by the feedback.

Great explanation! Thanks for the video

Thank you so much Jerad. Calling out this kind of crap is what we need

Short, clear, and informative. Amazing

Thanks for this eye opening review. I see many reviewers just barrel through the wire. I’m sure most aren’t trying to get one over on me, so I hope this makes its way to all. ❤❤

Glad you brought this subject back to the foreground! Haven't seen anyone discuss this since Frankie and Bird were presenting their new tester and showing off the edge that Bird put onto a knife with his KME sharpener. He was getting wicked readings in the low double digits.... and they were using the tester properly!

This is Neeves at his best. Representing. Excellent vid. Cheers

I use weights to ensure BESS C media is always at same tension. I also go slow as per instructions. I have seen too many fake ones done on KZread where I can tell they are going too fast. I am glad you demonstrated how results can be manipulated.

Thank you for this, I’ve been seeing some ads recently for a certain sharpening system and it’s clear they’re cheating it on which bothered me a lot

SPEAK THE TRUTH

Fantastic vid Jared. Thanks

Great video keeping them Honest 😅 👍 love seeing some of these "different/unique" videos that aren't the average run of the mill knife vids

Great video. Thank you for doing this.

Good Information, Thanks Jared .😮

Thanks 🙏🏼 brother, keeping them honest 👍🏻👍🏻

Yes I discovered that with this tester fairly early using it...absolutely right dude, great video

Good info Jared! I new one of these. I just see if I can cut paper towels cleanly to test my edges .

We're with you mate.!

Good video. Glad it was short and no BS

Amazing video!

Very informative video, thanks for sharing

Totally agree with you bro. Slow and consistent is the only way to get consistent results.

This is the test that the tumbler diamond rolling knife sharpener has been using for their ads. I knew it was too good to be true. Thanks for making this video. 😁👍

Great vid Jerad, bringing light to an issue that's becoming more prevalent with these Bess Testers. Would be great to see a mechanical arm that clamps onto the knife and would apply constant pressure until the wire breaks, take the human part out of the equation all together. Thanks for the great vid and keep making sharp things fun and enjoyable

@BrandonGavin_EDC

Жыл бұрын

That’s about the only way to get a real and consistent result.

@jimbarbwe1985

Жыл бұрын

yo Todd

@dcuttingedge5422

Жыл бұрын

I think one of the BESS tester prototypes used a mechanical rig like you describe. It used gram weights for pressure.

Thank you. Good to know. I think it should be easy to see if someone is doing it right or not.

Point taken. Thanks Jerad.

Neeves keeping it real 👍🏻

Another great video, I have one that I use and can regularly get an edge in 130-180 if working with good steels that have been heat treated properly. I just thought I must not be very good at it after watching some videos. Thx for pointing out that cheating is possible. Should have known

Very nice! I've seen a lot of misuse of these Bess tests, and it's irritating every time.

So true man!!! I’ve called out instagram ads for doing the test quickly and without averaging. Also I think the clips are much more consistent than the canister of filament, but they are spensive! Also your 39 is insane! 70’s is my best!

@David_DY

Жыл бұрын

Lol...The 39 was cheating!! 148 was the real number!! 👊🏼

@olbubs

Жыл бұрын

@@David_DY I thought he had a legit one in the 30’s at the beginning of the video, but I rewatched and you are most definitely correct! My mistake!

Thanks for the content I wondered if it was a trick to it.

Thanks for information

If you tension the wire by 100g which is the manufacturers guidelines then even your 3 measures to get an average would probably be closer.

Thank you!

I never had confidence in this system and now I see why! not consistent at all and can obviously be manipulated!

Awesome...truth...thanks for explaining this mythical tester...

Excellent video man. Honest approach. I had no idea it could be manipulated so much by speed. It also has issues when comparing cutting capacity of polished edge vs aggressive edge. A polished edge sometimes will stop cutting rope at 300 BESS while an aggressive edge sometimes keep cutting up to 500. I think that makes sense even without any manipulation. BESS will measure keenness but, since there is no slicing motion, it doesn't take in account how serrated the edge is.

@neiljudell1437

Жыл бұрын

It would be fascinating to see results on something like dendritic cobalt. That stuff cuts like crazy, but is probably not going to test well on the BESS

@thiago.assumpcao

Жыл бұрын

@@neiljudell1437 I've heard of some exotic materials like tungsten carbide and elastic ceramic but dendritic cobalt is news to me.

@loboptlu

5 ай бұрын

@@thiago.assumpcaothe italian knifemaker Sandrin makes wolfram carbide knives

I am Impressed how that blade went through that paper towel ! 👊🏼

Thank you for this Public Service Announcement. My initial interpretation from the headline was that we should not consider purchasing this tool. I agree that accurate results are a challenge and that maybe people on the internet cheat. However I think this tool may still be useful as a gauge on my workshop. I would need to learn how to use it accurately and consistently so that I could use it as a metric of how well I sharpen. But I also agree it may be of little value to try and compare numerical values between other people or even between different knife styles.

I always wondered what difference the speed of cut made... thanks for clarifying for me...

Direct attack on the steel tumble roller thing. I love it

Thanks for highlighting this issue. For me, the paper test is good enough as I use my knives every day.

Dude, I love my mordax. It was cool to see you using one🇺🇲🙃

I have had a lot of questions about this… BTW first!!!

Excellent education. As for this device. Create a pivot with arm and weight to put the pressure on. Could be done 3D printing. As well gives a repeatable force.

I still am thinking of ordering one of these testers. Just to see if my sharpening skills are up to par. Prior my only concern was the leverage of the handle and the difference edges would effect the numbers, like recurve to a belly..

Brilliant Jerad 👌 I know of a big lier down here in Mexico that manipulates results. Thanks bud🤜🤛

Nice. I like it

That is great to know! I had no idea you could cheat them.

Very interesting

Thanks for showing us the limitations of the tool. I would say, though, that the tool doesn’t lie… instructions are to be followed and the tool should be respected. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the tool… people just aren’t honest with how they use it. It’s like how I teach student about statistics. Statistics don’t lie - people do. People can frame true statistics in such a way that give a very biased picture. Just like with this tool.

You should put up a short of this

Right on. I didn't know this; thank you. :-) Peace, Stiletto :-)

this is exactly why this is my favorite knife channel. The bullshit does not stand, nor is tollerated here. Well done, well done indeed.

KZread needed this

Well done. Any chance you could do a test between some double edge blades versus a straight razor. I just started wet shaving and getting a straight razor shave ready forced me to buy 3 higher grit stones. It's a new level of sharpening and a good stroping is essential. Thanks.

@NeevesKnives

Жыл бұрын

I WILL SEE WHAT I CAN PUT TOGETHER IF YOUR A MEMBER ON THE CHANNEL WE DO LIVE SHARPENINGS TWICE A MONTH

I’m glad you did this, bc I didn’t trust the test universally either.

You are a legend

Thanks, know you'll tell it like it is.

BASED, never crossed my mind. You would need to do a more controlled test where you knew the same amount of pressure was being applied every time and THEN average it as well. Wow, that's a "results may vary" if I've ever seen one!

@elevationmoto6208

Жыл бұрын

How about testing multiple points on the blade? Seems to me that using the entire length of the blade to cut paper would reveal variations. But how can you put a number on that? I really don't care, because I like to see people showing off by cutting paper, cutting slices off blueberries, and doing other real things that I can try to duplicate. Great video!

The punching the air part had me ROLLING LOL

@NeevesKnives

Жыл бұрын

LOL

My tester is the top of my left hand. The area always has a clean shaven look.

I never realized it was a *wire* being cut. For some reason, I thought it was a little clear plastic card being cut into. Since it's a wire, is BESS basically testing micro bevel acuity, independent of overall edge geometry?

It can also be a low number where its being tested and a higher number elsewhere on the length of the blade.

Oh, boy, this is going to cause a stir, but you backed up what you said.

As Todd Carr said below. The only way to get this consistent would be to use a machine with consistent pressure to get accurate measurement.

I agree with you

I couldn't possibly agree more. Further, the Bess test is only good for testing a blades push cutting ability. It completely ignores such things as micro teeth for instance where high vanadium carbide steels really shine. I can sharpen a blade so sharp and highly polished on the edge that it will score very low, shavel ikea deamn but will not cut hot butter! KnifeMaker

J swinging hard at the air was funnier than I was prepared for.. I think a couple of them connected.

I have only seen one guy on youtube using it to test factory sharpness of knives and he uses it honestly. It is only a guide after all, there are heaps of ways to see how sharp a knife is. A number is just a number.

That Tumbler rolling sharpener company are the best example of this

This is literally something I've been telling everyone i know that sharpens. Anytime you use the spool it's very easy to cheat the score to make your ego feel better. I prefer the clips because those tensiona are set by factory

CAPS LOCK is a button on a computer keyboard that causes all letters of Latin and Cyrillic based scripts to be generated in capital letters. It is a toggle key: each press reverses the previous action.

@NeevesKnives

Жыл бұрын

You don't Miss Dino and I appreciate that 👊

@DinoNucci

Жыл бұрын

​@@NeevesKnivesPizzA

That thing has been suspect in my mind since it first showed up.

I trust your edges more than anyone’s in the community !

Makes sense.

what grits would u recommend for venev dual sided stones if i were to get 2 stones allowing for 4 grits

@NeevesKnives

Жыл бұрын

Something very coarse like a 180 /125 or similar with another coarse on the other side i forget which one i think its 100/80, then the 50/40 with the 20/14 on the other side

I KNEW this was a weird way to test sharpness

I think the most objective way to gage a blade’s edge is to examine that under a microscope. That’s academically quite interesting, but you don’t really need to do that, if what you want is a blade that cuts. Just sharpen that thing until it cuts the way you want it to.

Jerad is damn right about this! I for my part use cigarette tubes, for shits and giggles did I use this BESS thing once (a guy does the testing for 5€ each) I dont trust this number thats why I wont say it and I dont wanna sound like a flexer or anything, another thing is that I dont have proof for that (no video sorry....) I did it once and he offered me to do a few more on house because he couldn't believe it all in all I did 4 testings for 5€. But if you wanna check something Knife Grinders has a modified chart which shows that you can reliable whittle hair at the 100 range? (Im not certain at this moment) but they show what you can and cant do with the edge you have on your knife. Another thing is I found out the tester favors Mirror Polished 4k+ edges because essentially you do a pushcut and Coarse up to 3000k score way higher on the tester, which is a little inconsistency I discovered....

I don't like that test very much because it can't differentiate between a polished and toothy edge. So even with a sharp knife you might not have a very good cutting performance

Well I guess that’s why my results sucked so bad compared to others. I thought I was one of the worst sharpeners because I always got ok results. Great video as always 👍🍻🍻

@NeevesKnives

Жыл бұрын

😆 🤣 exactly punching the air

I’ve been sharpening for my job since the 90’s and have had the PT50A model for 6-7 years now. I would love to see everyone start calling out these people en masse as the disinformation is not only obnoxious but likely discourages others starting out when they try to copy what they see with underwealming results. I’ve seen so many fail to use the tester properly and have a hard time believing it’s ever from a lack of knowledge on using the tester correctly as even the owner has an instructional video here. I believe people are doing it for some false ego boost or more nefariously to dupe viewers that don’t know better to overhype sharpening products they are selling/affiliated with. IDK why so people feel qualified to teach others skills they’re still just learning themselves, but KZread is flooded with self proclaimed “experts” who never have sharpening stones with any wear to them. The BESS Tester is great for confirming an edge is not passing other tests (ie push cut accross grain of thin rolling papers or HHT) from simply a weak but polished burr as it will just mushroom on the test media.

The only sharpness test I ever do is phonebook paper, against the grain. Sure, not super-dupper sharp. But that is my minimum standard. If it can cut phonebook paper, it can cut anything I usually cut, with ease. And it’s not TOO sharp where you’d lose the edge too quickly. And it’s fairly easy to maintain this said standard, freehand, with few strokes of a diamond rod, butcher’s steel, and a leather strop.

I find mine useful when I use it correctly.

@NeevesKnives

Жыл бұрын

absolutely

It should not be toooo difficult to develop a system that overcomes those problems. I wonder why there is none...

What's the sharpening stone that you were using?

@NeevesKnives

8 ай бұрын

Probably Atoma, and Venev checkout the neevesknives store link in most recent videos or HAPSTONE link

I've seen it manipulated and seen people in the comments calling them out on it.

Yep, anything with a human element isn't going to be the most accurate thing around, especially when comparing between different humans. I'll use the thing for videos when I'm checking a blade's edge right out of the box. I do it in real time on camera and also depict my stringing of the filament so people can draw their own conclusions... but that does require their knowledge on HOW to properly utilize the tool to judge if someone's using it correctly or not. As you say, more often than not, people don't RTFM and maybe follow the techniques from other content creators that get those unrealistically low numbers. I'm immediately skeptical of any readings someone gets if things score less than 100. Usually you can see this if they show it on camera though, as the blade will have inertia and continue moving after the filament is severed. For the most part, I use it from time to time as a sanity check on my own sharpening. If I change something up in my technique/materials, or use a different system or stropping compound, etc I can see if it's effective, has diminishing returns or was regressive.

If you use it properly, then why should you not trust it? The video should probably be called "Why you should not trust the Testers on the internet using this tester". The title disparages a tool that a lot of people use successfully and consistently with proven results. This is my first experience with clickbait on your channel.

Well on my shorts I go slow if that's what you been seeing 😂

My dollica scored a 17 on the machine.. are you telling me that's fake ??