"Everybody has a plan until they get pilumed" - Mikus Tysonius

@oskarileikos

4 жыл бұрын

Everybody gangsta until the legion starts walking

@XLHeavyD999

4 жыл бұрын

@@oskarileikos Indeed Roman Legions were the coolest kids on the block in 500 BC :)

@willpat3040

4 жыл бұрын

@@XLHeavyD999 LOL, but it's more like 300 bc at the earliest....

@km5405

4 жыл бұрын

everybody gangsta until the legion rolls it artillery up

@chrisdavison2622

4 жыл бұрын

"Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears"

Been really loving these videos on the pilum, truly an unsung hero.

@zacakafroztee

3 жыл бұрын

But what about DRAGONS?!?!

@todo9633

3 жыл бұрын

I wonder if the romans ever mentioned the pilum in songs, then it'd be a sung hero.

„Clearly, killing a Person is the ultimate aim“ -Matt Easton on the meaning of life

Matt "...and probably some anti armour stuff" Next episode: Matt lifts panzerschreck off garage wall....

@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz

4 жыл бұрын

"Now, you may be asking, why did the Romans prefer the LXXXVIII-mm guns? Easy, they worked!" [Edited for historical accuracy- 88mm]

@ArifRWinandar

4 жыл бұрын

@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz *the LXXXVIIImm guns

@tommyscott8511

4 жыл бұрын

Hey guys, Matt Easton, Scholagladiatoria here. Today we're going to be testing German anti-armour weapons against my neighbours garage door

@crazycakemanflies

4 жыл бұрын

@@tommyscott8511 now obviously, this isnt a conclusive test, the German army didnt fight against garage doors. HOWEVER! I unfortunately couldnt find any T-34s lying around and steve, the next door neighbor, had been a bit of a prick recently so I hope It becomes an expensive repair...

@mr.meowgi9876

4 жыл бұрын

That comment is the epitome of more dakka

Interestingly, Wikipedia states "The scholar Agathias recorded the use of angons by Frankish warriors at the Battle of Casilinum in 554: Suppose a Frank throws his angon in an engagement. If the spear strikes a man anywhere the point will penetrate, and neither the wounded man nor anyone else can easily pull it out because the barbs which pierce the flesh hold it in and cause terrible pain, so that even if the enemy is not fatally hit he still dies as a result. And if it sticks in the shield, it fixes in it at once and is carried around with it, the butt dragging on the ground. The man who has been hit cannot pull out the spear because the barbs have gone in, and he cannot cut it off because of the iron that covers the shaft. When the Frank sees this he quickly treads on it with his foot, stepping on the ferrule [iron finial on the butt of a spear or other pole weapon] and forcing the shield downwards so that the man's hand is loosened and his head and breast bared. Then, taking him unprotected, he kills him easily either cleaving his head with an axe or piercing his throat with another spear." Do you think that the inability to remove the pilum after a strike also might have been a main consideration for the long iron shank?

@ilejovcevski79

4 жыл бұрын

It certainly would seam as a viable tactic, and seeing how the Germanic tribes warred with the Romans for many centuries, the inevitable exchange of ideas and goods could have lead from one to the other.

@vanivanov9571

4 жыл бұрын

That's yet another factor in it. Yes, the iron shank means you can't just cut the head off the javelin for medical purposes. There are a lot of factors, or "context" to its uses, it doesn't JUST need to penetrate. I go into detail with that, here, if you are interested: &lc=UgwRwbkMQ2Vti_5p2-B4AaABAg

@dmytroy

4 жыл бұрын

This makes a ton of sense(stepping on the end of it to pull the shield) down.

@TNaizel

4 жыл бұрын

@Badger0fDeath it might be related to the reduction of the avaibility of good armor after the fall of the empire

@ilejovcevski79

4 жыл бұрын

@Badger0fDeath true. I might also be more difficult to produce? At least in large quantities.

"...as concise as possible, by Matt Easton standards--" [13 minute video] Never change, Matt.

@rogerwilco2

4 жыл бұрын

He is brilliant in doing these videos in one take, with the amount of information he has in each of them.

Everyone gangster till you hear the centurion shout, “Consiste! Pila iace!”

My brain: goes into a long-winded (edit) and lenghty explanation as to why that is. My mouth: because pila are awesome! Also the shank is way thinner than the point to avoid friction and facilitate penetration. Once the pyramid point gets in, the rest of the shank doesn't find much resistance

@Raz.C

4 жыл бұрын

re - *winded* I do not think that word means what you think it means. edit - It's likely you meant *long winded* which has an entirely different meaning. Dare I say; an almost _inconceivably_ different meaning...

@undead9999

4 жыл бұрын

@@Raz.C as far as I recall "long-winded" means long and tedious, but again English isn't my first language so I might be wrong. Hopefully you get what I'm trying to say. Edit: yeah. That was it. Speaking more than one language gets me in situations like this sometimes ahahah

@vanivanov9571

4 жыл бұрын

There's a fallacy here, where people are assuming something can't be designed to penetrate and bend. Obviously, if you didn't penetrate the shield, there is NO WAY for the pilum to bend in it. This is a problem of misunderstanding the physics, as well.... Take a look at this comment, if you want to see the very grievous errors in Matt's backyard archaeology: /watch?v=wLmkLyBEO_k&lc=UgwRwbkMQ2Vti_5p2-B4AaABAg

@undead9999

4 жыл бұрын

@Math everything was sexual to Freud, though ahah

@undead9999

4 жыл бұрын

@@vanivanov9571 I've read your comment, and it does make sense, after all a weighted wooden handle would put strain on a thinner, soft metal shaft, I wonder if it would be possible to recreate a pilum with the same specifications, or as close as possible, to a period-accurate one.

The pilum's penetrative power would also be greatly increased if the target is charging vs stationary. Have someone run at you while carrying a shield.

@privatebaldric8767

4 жыл бұрын

Preferably one of your enemies 😄

@Likexner

4 жыл бұрын

The most energy would be transferred if both the target and the thrower were charging at each other.

I've always been a bit skeptical of the notion that pila were meant to bend in shields or so that the pila couldn't be thrown back at the Romans. First, because if the pilum is weak enough to easily bend it will lose a substantial amount of penetrating potential. Second, because pila are short ranged weapons used shortly before the Romans and their enemies engaged in close combat. How much time would people have to throw back the pila before the battle lines clash.

@vanivanov9571

4 жыл бұрын

It doesn't bend on impact... so no, it doesn't reduce penetration, if you use a heavy pilum designed to bend. And you're thinking of a Hollywood situation, where everything is decided in one decisive clash. That sometimes happened, sure, but thinking all warfare came down to that is not accurate. You can check out this comment, if you want to see a thorough analysis of the issue: /watch?v=wLmkLyBEO_k&lc=UgwRwbkMQ2Vti_5p2-B4AaABAg

@buildingenergy9365

4 жыл бұрын

The wooden pin would do it. Does not change anything on impact, just when you try to pull it off.

@dernwine

4 жыл бұрын

@@buildingenergy9365 But then the wooden pin is only mentioned once by one source, and all archaeological finds of Pila have had metallic pins, no wooden ones.... so how much faith can we really put in the idea that wooden pins where used? *edit* if we accept that they where used in that battle, then it gives no idea of how wide spread they where outside of that one event.

@mangalores-x_x

4 жыл бұрын

@@vanivanov9571 anything that is malleable will deform on impact, anything deforming on impact will transfer kinetic energy into its deformation and not trying to pass through. It seems pretty frivolous to expect a specific behavior out of a weapon like that. Penetrating the shield is already annoyingly difficult because most of the time you will miss, hit at a deflection, hit the boss, entangle in spears etc. so to specifically expect it to bend when penetrating the shield is weird. Also, the context of its usage is legionaires throwing their pila at pretty much point blank range before charging with the implication of hitting the enemy with the charge when they have not recovered from the pila disrupting them, yet. Nowhere in there do you need the pilum to bend. They guys who have their shields penetrated and thus struggle holding position or counter charging are the very guys you want to kill in that charge! Seems to be like the arrows fired back idea which as we saw with Tod's Workshop: Good luck firing those arrows back in one piece while scurrying over the field like a ferret to find one with its arrowhead still attached and undamaged!

@Biden_is_demented

4 жыл бұрын

The pilum are used right as the enemy are charging, to break their momentum. There is hardly any danger of it being picked up and thrown back, because by that time the two opposing infantry lines are engaged in melee combat. Although we have no way of knowing how hard or soft the metal shaft were, i have a hard time envisioning the roman empire having to replace the pilum after every few battles. If the romans devised it to bend on purpose (which i doubt), the material would need to be very soft, and we all know what happens when you bend and straighten metal time after time. It gets metal fatigue and breaks. And the bending itself takes away energy from the pilum´s thrust, which means penetration is affected. A rigid shaft is desired to achieve maximum penetration. I think the roman legions used the pilum to break enemy formations just before charging, or to break enemy momentum when they are being charged at. Either way, it happens mere seconds before both battle lines collide, so there is never any chance for the enemy to retrieve the pilum and throw them back. After the battle is over, the legionnaires just pick it up from the ground, since they were more often than not victorious.

As far as testing materials, you hear the same kinds of objections about using ballistic gel for testing bullets. And while the objections are valid, what the gel DOES do is give you a consistent medium to get a general idea about the differences in the projectiles. Point being, maybe while you're testing you should try some OTHER types of javelin and spear type weapons that were present at the same time as the pilum to see how they perform compared to the pilum in whatever type of testing media you come up with. JAT

@vanivanov9571

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah... Matt's tested a non-historical pilum, then, despite admitting there were MANY TYPES of pila, decided NONE OF THEM bend... when his unreasonably bending resistant pilum DID bend, in an archery target meant to resist such. I wrote up a post last time about this, but sadly people seem to have ignored it. You can check it out here, if you're interested: &lc=UgwRwbkMQ2Vti_5p2-B4AaABAg

@vincewhite5087

4 жыл бұрын

Van Ivanov who has done tests with ACTUALL historic pilum. And his comment fit perfectly, and use real data.

@vanivanov9571

4 жыл бұрын

@@vincewhite5087 Thanks. My tests aren't from recreations of pila, though. Just from experience with friends, doing metal working. Matt's recreation shows us how, even with a truly over-designed pilum, perpendicular force will still bend it, even against a soft target.

My thoughts. 1. To break up the line they are attacking or being attacked by. 2. To kill the enemy. 3. When they stick in shields, they make the shields hard to use.

@Bob-sq1us

4 жыл бұрын

4. They give you a lever to move the opponents shield creating openings for comrades

@koncorde

4 жыл бұрын

@@Bob-sq1us You are never going to be trying to pick up or kick a pilum like a lever as an actual feasible tactic. Not unless you want your outstretched arm / leg chopped off. In the press of melee combat the fact the shield is now functionally got a 12" stabbing implement stuck through into your soft squishy bits is about all the leverage required for the enemy to shed the shield at the first opportunity and pick up another from a fallen comrade if they are able.

@Bob-sq1us

4 жыл бұрын

@@koncorde you have more than enough heft to retain your grip and keep hand, let alone your whole arm, behind your shield. Once the shank is even an inch or two in, and thus supported by your opponents shield it can be gripped closer to butt of the weapon, you would not have to leave to arm at the exetenton of the thrust. Conduct the experiment

@Bob-sq1us

4 жыл бұрын

@@koncordealso one could very easily step on a pilum embedded in an opponents shield without exposing your leg. Provided the end was near the ground which almost certainly would be

@BigWillyG1000

4 жыл бұрын

@@Bob-sq1us And that low thing is likely where you'd get a lot of bending if someone was advancing. If you're a Celtic or German warrior charging at the Romans and a pilum sticks midway or farther down your shield as you run forward that shaft will dig into the ground and you'll put a lot of torque on that iron shaft as you run forward until the whole mess makes you fall ass over tea kettle.

Concerning the gladius, the Zulu tribes using very short spears with large shields had the same effect and were definitely cheaper to produce.

Simple answer. They liked to pilum on the pain.

So the secret to bring down the roman empire was carrying multiple shields

@DarkPillWarrior

4 жыл бұрын

So basically like you do in dark souls, right?

@menwor1

4 жыл бұрын

Skallagrim was wrong, double welding shields is the way.

@Duhya

4 жыл бұрын

like a mountain blade seige

@Raz.C

4 жыл бұрын

@@menwor1 double welding shields? What? You mean forge-welding them together? Because they didn't have many methods of welding 2,000 years ago and I even suspect that forge-welding may have been the ONLY method they had. All of which is largely irrelevant, since I'm convinced you meant to say *wielding* and not *welding...*

@vanivanov9571

4 жыл бұрын

Having spare shields is a good idea, being well supplied means someone can just go to the back of the line and get a new shield, or take time removing the pilum from it. The pilum bending makes it much harder to remove, however, so you would need a new shield. Even if you can go back and get a new shield, temporarily disabling enemies is a good move. And yes, pilum did bend... See this comment, if you want to argue over that: &lc=UgwRwbkMQ2Vti_5p2-B4AaABAg

Mike Loads was featured in a brand new history channel documentary and he can to the conclusion that once the head passes, the rest of the shank has virtually no friction with the shield. It was also observed that none of them bended

@vanivanov9571

4 жыл бұрын

You have a title for it? I would need to see these pila and the testing conditions. If it's like Matt's.... well, his wasn't designed to bend, and it bent on an archery target meant to preserve arrows.

@MedievalGenie

4 жыл бұрын

Yay, Mike Loades is back on History Channel, rather than those modern lorry drivers and lumberjacks taking up airing time!

@Artyomthewalrus

4 жыл бұрын

But did this documentary use soft iron comparable to what many pilum used? It's pretty much accepted that they were designed to pass through shields and penetrate armor, that doesn't negate the other major advantages to the design. Sticking in shields was a huge benefit if the person was not killed. We know that both light and heavy pila were used, with the lighter and more common variant having softer and thinner iron shanks than the heavier version - the heavier version thought to double as melee weapons.

We know from Plutarch's life of Marius that one of Marius' military reforms was to replace one of the two nails holding the head of the javelin with a wooden peg that upon impact would break and thus allowing the shaft to pivot. (Life of Marius 25.1) This lends itself to supporting that the the javelin was supposed to penetrate deeply into the shield but rather then bend it was designed to break so that it remain lodged in the shield and was unable to be thrown back at the Romans.

@tjsogmc

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly. I read that book years ago and also understood the innovation of the wood peg. It allows the weapon to damage the enemy, then safely break and not be able to be used against the Romans. At the back of the line there would be a guy with a bucket of pegs to repair the pilum and return it to the battle very quickly. The other advantage of the thin shaft is that even if it bends, the blacksmith can heat it and straighten it out in a minute or two. The bottom line is that when Roman weapons broke, they could be easily repaired on the battlefield and returned to service the same day.

@TheChiconspiracy

4 жыл бұрын

This suggests something contrary to the tactic of "throw and immediately charge" usage of the pilum that is widely accepted though. Getting even a leaf shaped spearhead out of a wooden shield is a pain in the ass and a wooden pin would be necessary unless you were doing a lot more missile throwing at standoff distance.

@parappasan

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheChiconspiracy modern thinking [see Zhmodikov et al] is that like other armies the Romans would approach, cast missiles for a long while, and if the enemy are shaken or they are urged by the moment, they will charge and press into the enemy for few minutes until they are exhausted, then return to the maniple, where the tired and wounded would be relieved by the man in file behind each, missiles would be put in the new file-leaders' hands, and they would throw more. The difference to the skirmishing of velites is that the hastati etc have legionary panoply to push into the enemy when the javelin volleys had disrupted his organization or weakened his morale. Think how important finding rocks and spent javelins was to the Roman soldier, it is the ONLY other reason to break ranks in the face of the enemy, beside saving the life of a fellow Roman citizen. And the so-called rotation of troops seen in the HBO Rome series was nowhere attested in the primary literature, but it could be done in the lulls between close melees once the front-rankers tired and drew back. Probably the reason the legions could never resist the Greek phalanx frontally is that they were more heavy armed skirmishers than the pure heavy melee infantry that the phalangite was. And many of the Roman enemies were the same, such as the Gauls and Germans who threw missiles and charged by dense columnar wedges.

May I suggest, to account for the arm absorbing some of the energy by recoiling or turning the shield, hang it from a grip using rope and the hang a 30 to 40 pound to below the shield, also secured to the grip. The whole thing should weigh in at heavy bag range. During destructive tests of center grip round shields, we found that method gave good approximation to a shield being struck while held (do not try this at home) and yielded significantly different results to a static mount.

@privatebaldric8767

4 жыл бұрын

Your genuine helpfulness has no place here. Only childish innuendo and penis jokes. 🧐 Those are the rules

Thanks Matt! This is a fantastic video, setting-up a fascinating set of future recorded experiments. I really appreciate all of your work, and I'm looking forward to seeing these results!!!

YES! Matt is back on the Pilum train!

I remember from my ancient history courses waaaay back when hearing that the pins holding the "shank" to the haft? (the woody bit) were designed to break away, so that the there was a bend or break at the shank/haft junction after impact, so that yes, it made use of the shield awkward after it stuck in (with a dangling pilum dragging about), but that also it made the pilum useless for an enemy to pick up and try to use back against the Romans (as the pins would need to be replaced). Anyone heard that, or was my old history professor high as a kite?

@tjsogmc

4 жыл бұрын

That is correct. Roman weapons were designed to be easily repaired on the battlefield. The wood peg was a brilliant innovation

@dernwine

4 жыл бұрын

The wooden bit is mentioned in an aside in one source (and the author is writing about a battle that happened 150years before his time), it's not clear if it was just for that one battle or if they kept being used according to that source, and there has never been a pilum found that has evidence of a wooden pin being used. So the questions about the wooden peg are massive: Did he get that right? Was his source reliable or did he just repeat a popular myth? Was it used in this one battle? Was it widespread? Why does nobody else mention the wooden pin? Did the Romans use some pila with wooden pins some with metal ones? Or did the wooden pins represent just a small moment in the Roman story?

@tjsogmc

4 жыл бұрын

@@dernwine the only way to find out is by experimentation. It could be a fun day throwing a pilum with and without wood pegs to see what makes sense.

@dernwine

4 жыл бұрын

@@tjsogmc I agree it would be fun, but it wouldn't really answer any of the questions: Even if it works, that doesn't tell us anything besides Plutarch probably was right about that specific instance. Whether it was a single incidence, or continued use, or why nobody else mentions it, how long it was in use, etc, none of those questions would be answered even by a succesfull test. The best chance of the question being put to rest would be if we could get a broad sample of dateable Pila with evidence of woodpegs, but I suspect that's not going to happen.

@tjsogmc

4 жыл бұрын

@@dernwine I think we see eye to eye on this one. It's very hard to say "this" or "that" about the pilum when we don't have a good sample of evidence backed up by eye witness accounts. When dealing with things like this, it comes down to what we do know from archaeology and surviving records bumped up with some educated speculation. First is the pilum design. Clearly, the pivoting mechanism can only be used with the ones that have the blade tang using only two rivets. Styles with three rivets or have the socket shrouds won't work like that. So now we are only speaking about a specific type. When was it used? Here and there throughout the 700 or so years it was in service? Only the one battle and one time and never used again because they found out it really wasn't a gain? We don't know. Next we have to look at culture. We know the Romans were pagans and absolutely loved writing everything down about every ordinary detail. Knowing this, there MUST have been a military manual published showing the pilum design and battlefield use. Unfortunately, we don't have a copy of it. And also unfortunately, there is little reference to it outside of a mention Plutarch. We also know that Roman historians can be a bit, um, shall we say, jingoistic and prone to exaggeration? So the reference MAY be reliable, or it may equally be hearsay - 50/50 on that since they seldom made the effort to distinguish between the two. The only thing is to try out the theory and see if it works. If it does, then that gives some merit to the surviving account and therefore it MIGHT have been a technique used on the battlefield. If it fails utterly, then we know Plutarch was full of shizzle and just repeating some drunk sailor talk. Either way, it sounds like a good excuse to throw around some spears and spend a day outside in the fresh air.

Really enjoying the quarantine content! Keep em coming Matt! Cheers from Athens, Greece! :D

I remember learning in grade school that they would throw a volley of them to lodge then into enemy shields so they would have to drop them

I really appreciate such an informative video that’s over the 10min mark and you resisted the temptation of filling this video with extra ads we’d have to get thru just for extra revenue. In a day and age where every p.o.s. KZreadr is using that slimy tactic you stand true like a bright light in darkness. Cheers mate

Always enjoy your reasoned perspectives. Thanks!

I would love to see the effects of a mass pilum throw. It would be amazing to see a test of a bunch of guys in formation all throwing their long range pilum first, and seeing what the damage/spread is like. And then having them throw the short range ones after. The damage must be insane but I can't really picture it in my mind.

@tl8211

4 жыл бұрын

It really sucks that you never see this scene recreated in TV series. I mean, these things were probably launched en masse under command of the centurion, one of his main tools in both defense and attack. It would look awesome (probably one of the reasons it was successful).

@blairbuskirk5460

4 жыл бұрын

There's a fair description in a few books but I get what you're saying.

Loved the video Matt. I'm very excited for the experimentation.

I'm excited for the upcoming pilum videos!

I love this channel. Thank you for this content and all the hard work you do.

I've got a bit of a ramble but this video really overlaps with a lecture (happened a good 4-5 years ago) put on by the Classics Association at my university, I think it was by Dr Jeremy Armstrong who was visiting at the time. It's been so long that I don't recall all the details, but the gist of it was about development of the Pilum and how it changed the structure/style of the Roman military during the 4th BCE. As best I recall, he argued that archaeological evidence showed that most of the 'warring' in Iron Age central Italy was done by tribal elites who were super heavily armored and decided battles in a series of semi-ritualized 1v1 battles. There was also a concurrent skirmishing tradition which was useful for more battlefield adjacent things like raiding and foraging, but wasn't effective enough to play a part in the 'major' battles because the elites were too well protected. The development of the pilum, (which he believed was an indigenous Roman invention from earlier javelin types) revolutionized the Roman military system because (in this he'd agree with you) the long shank was to aid in penetration, finally making the traditional skirmishing tactics lethal enough to harm the traditionally heavily armed elite. As a result Rome suddenly had a major advantage and shifted into a more democratized, skirmish-heavy form of warfare that proved so effective that most major enemies were subdued or overshadowed before they could adapt. As a result of this (and once again he'd agree with you here) the pilum was a much more central and important weapon to the Roman warrior than any of his sidearms, and through to the Early Republican Period the Roman warrior thought of himself, first and foremost, as a Javelineer rather than a swordsman. Armstrong had all these great ancient literary quotes about the symbolic importance of pila to Roman military and religious ritual during the Early Republic, arguing that the 'primacy' of the gladius was a retconning of later authors who projected the primacy of the gladius during their own time back onto the poorly recorded Roman Iron Age. I don't know how much of this has made it into his publications, but Armstrong has a number of books on Early Roman warfare and it's effect on Roman Society, they might be worth checking out?

@dernwine

4 жыл бұрын

Yes that's the gist of what Dr Armstrong aruges (I think convincingly). If you liked his lecture and want to go into more detail I'd really recommend his book (if you can afford it, damn university textbooks): www.amazon.co.uk/War-Society-Early-Rome-Warlords-ebook/dp/B01CJUV4EO

@anthonybracuti6898

4 жыл бұрын

@@dernwine do you have any other recommendations of his books? I might contact him directly and ask too

@dernwine

4 жыл бұрын

Anthony Bracuti sorry, no I don't, I know he's written a few more but I haven't had the opportunity (or money since they're all expensive) to read more, I'll try to remember to come back here if I do get a chance to read more of his work.

@anthonybracuti6898

4 жыл бұрын

@@dernwine no sweat, I contacted him directly, hopefully I'll get a reply

@dernwine

4 жыл бұрын

@@anthonybracuti6898 let me know if you do.

I like the attitude on this one! You got the chops to back it up so it's sound input! History needs the experiential contribution!

This makes so much more sense. I was in the military. And I always thought it odd that an army would use a "support weapon" on the front lines. Lethality is always a weapons primary purpose.

@thomasraahauge5231

4 жыл бұрын

Well, you can wreak an awful lot of havoc by injuring the enemy. A dead soldier/warrior doesn't call for help. A wounded one does. At least that's what we were taught back in the days.

"This is all conjecture." It's also bleedin' obvious that's what the long thin spike is for! This situation reminds me of the discussions over another weapons subject from another time - The crescent shaped arrow head. It's not "for cutting rope" as that's a ridiculous idea! What does it do best? It's best for shooting at small game on the ground without losing your arrow as it doesn't zip underground like other arrows tend to often do.

Pilum is brilliant, even if it doesn’t bend, you can’t charge with one stuck in your shield?! Imagine the best pilum thrower (Olympic Javelin).

@Yora21

4 жыл бұрын

I believe they were thrown very close to the enemy formation so you can make contact with the enemy line as quickly as possible while they are still trying to pull out plia from their shields and are still moving wounded warriors from the front ranks to the rear. Not much point in disrupting their shield wall and giving them 20 or 30 seconds to reform before you get into gladius range.

@williampaz2092

4 жыл бұрын

No you can’t. In fact even if it DOESN’T bend, your shield will be terribly heavy and unbalanced. All you can really do is throw the shield away or retreat.

The neighbours: Why has that nice Mr Easton got a sign in his driveway reading "Volunteers For Pilum Experiments This Way"?

This is Thrand, and I totally agree Matt I did a video a wile back to bend or not to bend ? Where I explained the purpose is to pierce shields to hit opponents behind it and better penetration of armours. The bend takes place upon hitting something it can not penetrate normally.

+1 on the pilum love. The pilum was the legionary's "primary" weapon not the gladius - the same way a knight's primary weapon was the couched lance. (Also a single/limited use weapon.) I have been beating that drum for a while now.

@DeliveryMcGee

4 жыл бұрын

Tournament lances were made to explode on contact to make a better show/make things slightly safer, but in battle they'd be stabbing every poor SOB they could reach as soon as they shook off the previous guy. Same concept as straight-bladed cavalry swords, but with more reach and impact. The saber (or sword, the lancers I'm most familiar with were more Easton's era, but medieval lancers worked pretty much the same) was only for emergencies (broken or dropped lance) or in the melee when too close to use the lance, much like modern pistols are only used when the rifle runs out or the bad guy is RIGHT THERE (among the few specialist people who carry both).

@blairbuskirk5460

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly Romans used heavy infantry. Like later medieval kingdoms used heavy calvary. At least as far as the manual of arms.

@erikjarandson5458

4 жыл бұрын

@@DeliveryMcGee I'm sure they would stab and retract, when possible. However, the advantage of cavalry is mobility, and the combination of the horse's speed and momentum would make deep penetration likely and limit the time available for retracting; penetrate 1 ft while the horse moves 2 ft, and you're at the limit of how far you can retract the lance. Beyond that point, and you'll be riding around with a dude stuck to your lance. I'm pretty sure most people decided to ditch the lance and switch to their secondary weapon, at that point, which would probably be an axe, mace, hammer or similar, rather than a sword. Swords were more tertiary weapons. There were lance tips designed for limited penetration, and even for using the forward momentum to rip the lance out, but they were uncommon, and will have worked poorly against armored opponents.

@TheAchilles26

4 жыл бұрын

@@erikjarandson5458, you don't need to pull the lance to get the body off it. You can untuck it from under your arm and tilt it to let gravity and your horse's continued movement to pull it free for you. The main reasons to drop the lance and switch to another weapon would be breaking it (which would be the exception rather than the rule) and getting caught in too thick of a melee, thereby temporarily losing your mobility advantage.

Matt is officially a scientist. Love that level of skepticism and meticulousness!

can't wait for Matt's experiments testing the effect of different grips on his shaft :D

I'm curious about the effectiveness of wicker shields against different weapons. I've seen weapon tests against all sorts of shields, but never wicker. We can assume cultures across Afro-Eurasia wouldn't be using them for such a long time if they didn't stop common weapons, so it would be nice to see them in action.

@BigWillyG1000

4 жыл бұрын

@Colin Cleveland That seems to have been the norm. If Homer and archaeology is correct Bronze Age Greek shields tended towards layers of hide over a wicker backing.

@apokos8871

4 жыл бұрын

i remember reading that wicker shields were somewhat annoying for hoplites because their spear would get penetrate easily but get stuck in the shield. this is probably from Xenophon's "Anabasis" or from the journal of the journey of the mercenaries through Anatolia. also i suppose wicker shields are good enough against arrows and Messopotamian armies favored archers.

@BigWillyG1000

4 жыл бұрын

@@apokos8871 Never run across that but hoplites always had issues with light missile infantry like Thracian peltasts.

@thomasraahauge5231

4 жыл бұрын

Discitus: And a wicker shield is still better than no shield at all.

@Kyle-sr6jm

Жыл бұрын

Ever shot against a wicker archery butt?

Pay attention to how you "mount" the test shield keeping in mind that holding the shield in your arm allows for more dampening than a rigid support. Ideally, the shield is mounted to a heavy spring instead of say a tree. I really look forward to see these experiments. Also, many people say there are many types of shields but few ever go into detail about very many of them. I know talking about shields is a bit tangential but then again maybe you can kill two birds with one stone. Final note/question, is it correct that the Romans used a throwing device with the pilum like a leather thong to extend its range or penetration?

@BigWillyG1000

4 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure if pilum were used with aumentum but the light javelins of the Early Republic velites certainly did.

@bramverbeek7109

4 жыл бұрын

We do want a video of Matt talking about leather thongs and penetration, of course... I don't think pila were ever described with a leather strap, but the shorter Verutum was.

This is interesting. As you mentioned Matt like many I've been led to believe the pilum was designed to bend once it hit the target. But if that was the designed intention to reliably bend,the shank would have to be so soft it couldn't be relied on to consistently penetrate. It would hit the shield, the shank would absorb most of the kinetic energy and the pilum would crumple and fall harmlessly to the ground. My guess it would probably hit the human target,even moderately armored and get little to no penetration. Matt am I thinking correctly on this?

@BigWillyG1000

4 жыл бұрын

I think bending would owe more to leverage than any kind of weak metal. Butt end stick into the ground with the point stuck in the shield of a man running full tilt will put a lot torque on that shaft.

Great. Totally agree with your Pilum assessment & looking forward to seeing how it performs against various shields. Be good to see your Roman Scutum painted too.

That sounds awesome, looking forward to it. Might want to see if Tod's workshop wants to collaborate, sounds right up his alley.

Hi Matt, greetings from Los Angeles California, good video.

Awesome information! Very good.

The idea of the shank not bending at the impact but bending after is actually quite entertaining..

You make an excellent argument. Can't wait to see your experiments.

I'm actually curious if a pilum would pierce through shields or/and armor if it doesn't hit flat but if the shield/armor is angled towards the pilum. I think entry angle can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of armor.

@Bob-sq1us

4 жыл бұрын

Could be one the reasons the Romans preferred curved shields. Generals often spend time thinking about how to counter their own weapons and tactics. Does anyone know evidence either way?

@Raz.C

4 жыл бұрын

@@Bob-sq1us It really depends on the energy carried by the pilum as it strikes the surface of the armour. If it has enough energy behind it, it'll pierce the shield/ armour, regardless of the angle of either at the moment of impact. That doesn't mean that this idea is without merit. Not at all. Holding a shield at an angle/ sloping one's armour will necessitate that a projectile be carrying more kinetic energy if it wishes to penetrate. But then, if it doesn't penetrate, the pilum us likely to skip along the face of the shield and either hit you or the bloke behind you right in the face...

@mangalores-x_x

4 жыл бұрын

@@Bob-sq1us the curved shield of the scutum is more indication that the Romans believed that every individual soldier needed more individual than unit protection aka expected to be attackable from multiple angles as in standing in a looser formation.

I enjoy these ones that involve us in your research project. Just a idea for videos, since we are all stuck in with the covid stuff more challenges like your water bottle cuts but something that involves knives since far more people have access to them. Thanks for all the work. Cheers

Thanks for the info! Love ancient history!!

Great video, very interesting!

Its best to think of the Pilum as a battlefield harpoon.

One thing I might suggest during experiments with this is to see the pulling out aspect from the shield. If you pull the pilum out straight and take your time, then I would assume you can get it out without bending. However, in an ancient battle situation, a soldier may be trying to yank it out quickly and panicked, as well as trying to do it while close in formation. In that ancient warfare context, I can see how a soldier could bend the shank trying to yank it out and get it really stuck in.

What is the best weapon - long pointy sticks (LPS) Which LPS are safer for me - shooting LPS with a bow from a distance What is the best defense against LPS - a really big shield I'm carrying a big shield and cant use my bow anymore - I need throwable LPS The enemy have big shields - use multi purpose LPS that stabs them both close up or at distance, or screws up their shields Pila evolution

Most information seems to come from "The military institutions of the romans" by Flavius and translated by John Clarke on kindle. Not much information but seems to have been one of many types of javlins used

I liked and subscribed based on this video alone! I never questioned the Pilum bending in a shield theory before, but you present an interesting argument. In terms of testing I think a good analogy for a human arm holding a shield could be a spring of varying gauges (maybe a car strut spring). Striking the shield at various angles would be useful but I'm guessing in a real world application people in a battle line would anticipate the main attack coming from directly in front of them and therefore the most common scenario would be a somewhat perpendicular strike. Great content, looking forward to seeing the results!

Don't forget that the arm holding the shield will give somewhat under the impact if it's extended, absorbing some of the energy/momentum of the blow but reducing the distance between shield and holder.

An interesting hypothesis indeed, can't wait to see the results of further testing. The only thing i would add is perhaps aside from a few different shield simulators, perhaps also a few alternative throwing objects. Like maybe a light throwing spear or a javelin to compare the relative results when compared with the pilum. Cheers Mat, and thanks for touching on a subject that has long held my interest and to be completely frank, i never expected to see it covered on you channel, that was predominantly on medieval subjects.

I guess these videos on the pilum cannot be praised highly enough. Of all the historical combat youtubers that I know I would rank your channel highest in expertise because you seem to be the most knowledgable (my non-expert impression).

Can't wait for the next video with information about how gripping and wiggling the shaft works.

An other pilum video, thank you so much! I really hope there will be much more and at some time you could explain, why it got replaced by the Francisca (after usage of angon). And then, why did the francisca disappeared, people used shields back then and plate wasn t used. This disappearence of close distance throwing weapons is still a mystery for me, they were success full for 1000-2000 years and then gone, why? Thank you very much. Happy easter and stay healthy :).

CAN'T WAIT 4 YOUR TEST !

Always like to see experimental military history stuff.

Perhaps a test of the pilum against a hoplon shield could be interesting, or more correctly a square hoplon cross-section imitation made of wood with leather backing and a very thin layer of bronze on the front.

@tl8211

4 жыл бұрын

Being convex helps performance, I imagine.

"...about as thick, as deep as my fist is"

@matthewmcneany

4 жыл бұрын

"grips the shaft very tightly"

@MegaFarinato

4 жыл бұрын

In matters of war and love there are no rules

@AnimeSunglasses

4 жыл бұрын

Glad I'm not the only one here who noticed that one!

@Menaceblue3

4 жыл бұрын

*T H A T S M Y F E T I S H*

@thomasraahauge5231

4 жыл бұрын

Squidfish: This brings a whole new mening to the phrase "the Legion was the Iron Fist of Rome" . . .

Hello Matt, I'm not a regular I just happened to see your video and found it interesting... I spent three and half years training as a traditional 'upholder' among the tools an upholder (not upholsterer) uses are these 22" long double-ended buttoning needles... many trainees when inserting these needles into thick layers of leather/fabric/padding can end up penetrating and seriously injuring themselves. Buttoning needles come in two types the round and the square-point... the round depends purely on pressure, the square-point actual cuts and tears... I believe the best use of the pilum is in a thrust, a proper thrush will penetrate through many layers of metal and otherwise particularly with a squarer point... Cheers!

2 thoughts: A place to start experimenting would be hit approximations of shield types the romans would face when introducing the pilum. If it didn't work against them, it would have been scrapped. Second thought, even if the pilum doesn't penetrate deep into the shield at the beginning if the opponent is close he might go for grabbing the shaft and forcing the spear through and into the body? I have no idea if that would be possible in actual fighting but I can imagine the threat.

@krystofmraz

4 жыл бұрын

Its not possible to move with it stuck in your shield, you just have to drop it.

"Cheers folks :)" Makes my day every time

Thran did a video on this. He set up a dummy with a shield made of 1/4" plywood with a layer of rawhide front and back. The dummy had butted mail over padding. It was tied up to a post made out of a 4x4. He admitted the butted bail was not historical but said it didn't really matter because the pilum was not going to go through the shield. He threw the pilum from about 15-20 feet and it went through the shield, through the mail, through the padding underneath the mail, through the balistic gel, through the padding on the backside, through the mail on the backside, and stuck firmly into the 4x4. Pilum are scary.

The pilum may also be thought of as a kind of ram. I imagine shortly before the legionaries meet with an enemy army, the pila are thrown. They either kill right away or are in the enemy's shield. Now the legionnaire can use the pilum again like a stick and push the enemy into his own people. Because of the long tip, the person opposite is either dead or wounded and does not fight back. The legionnaire would be protected anyway by his scutum. The advancing enemy cannot dodge its own impaled man in the crowd and is stopped. This in turn gives the legionnaire the opportunity to advance with the Gladius. Would this be possible?

I'd love to see a video on the soliferrum used in the Iberian peninsula. My understanding is that they were made from solid iron, solely for being compact, heavy, and able to penetrate shields.

I laughed at the fact that someone using a roman style shield was saying he was protected from lots of different Angles.

@thomasraahauge5231

4 жыл бұрын

Angles, Saxons, the list goes on :-D

Congrats Matt! You actually get it 😃

Part of me thinks that the heavy weight of the front end is there to act as a way of allowing the user to throw the spear up higher and guaranteeing it will fall down tip first at longer range, essentially allowing for users to throw the pilum up high and then charging in quickly, I don't see the unit throwing the pilum at very close range because the most obvious thing for the enemy to do is charge as they are preparing to throw their pila. So the weighted end acts as guarantee that the pilum will fall tip first nearly every time, considering the user has no ability to do a run up the extra weight adds to the chance that the pilum can be thrown father and will fall down tip first, and means that with the unit can stay cohesive while throwing the pila. It also means it is more likely to be salvagable after a fight, the pressure is usually at the head of the weapon when it hits so if the pressure is all on a joint then its more likely to break, however if it is all metal then at best it will bend which can be easily repaired by a blacksmith and bent back into shape.

A roman reenactor I met one time took a replica pilum and through it at a replica scutum and it SPLIT the scutum down the side. Nasty bit of kit that is.

That thin shank is going to have a lot of momentum behind it,both from the throw but also the wooden shaft will give added momentum on impact, I'd imagine that will help push the thinner shaft through more efficiently

The Pilum shank was fixed in the wooden shaft with wooden bolts made to splinter on impact, so that it can't be thrown back at the legionaires. No bending, and easily repaired for next use after the battle.

Awesome video Matt, channels like this are a cure to the History nerd’s quarantine boredom. However I have to wonder, what is that kidney shaped wooden club thing over your right shoulder for?

Great video. The Pilum spear is a great weapon🇬🇧

If you dont throw sticks at people then they arent going to run into your shield wall now are they?

You may want to try Irish War darts, very similar to the pilum and did part of the function of Shield breaking; The Darts are designed to be fired at around 30 Meters and to force shield UP or A Shield formation; It very flexible so the bolt can slide under armor. Usually follow up by a hidden Champion Hand Stones, tailored made Axes and Warhammers that cause internal injuries when they strike the shields.

Another advantage of the soft iron is that if the pilum bends, for whatever reason, the enemy can’t throw it back at you until he has a chance to straighten it

If you look at the source material the bending originally was a resullt of replacing one of the two nails that fixed the shaft in place with a wood dowel nail by gaius marius specifically for the purpose of "bending" (more realisticaly breaking and pivoting) and preventing it from being removed. Later on this innovation was incorperated by spot hardening, meaning a portion was left soft specifically to bend. In the reproductions you have, they are likely through hardened throughout the entire shaft, so no, those won't bend drastically and as a result they won't be true to the original early empire/late republic design.

Matt, I like your idea that the pilum is the “unsung hero” of Roman fighting. Even if it is speculation, it makes complete sense! If you look at when they were thrown, it seems to be usually just prior to closing. Even if one didn’t go through your shield, or get stuck in it, the sheer fact of them coming at you may still cause a brief period of chaos and disorder in the ranks affecting your battle plan. I guess I think of like a period flashbang, in that whatever its effect, it takes your attention away from what’s coming at you. By the time you brace, reorganize, plug the gaps in your ranks, get the pilum out of your shield, or whatever, the Roman infantry are already on top of you! Great insight here, love the video and look forward to the tests! : )

Matt, I think you're right. You truly are an expert

the thickness of the archery target could also mean that it wont bend as likely. the depth of the target may supports the metal shaft and therefor avoides lateral movement which could maybe the main reason for eventual bending during the phase where the pilum still has velocity but changes its direction duo to restistance. But maybe i am wrong. Context;)

What? THe video is already over? I was so into your explanantions i was waiting for you to go outside and start throwing the pilum... :D Looking forward to it

Salve amice! I think you're entirely right about the pilum shank not being meant to bend on impact. Grew up with that 'urban legend' myself, but was struck a while ago by the thought that a shank meant to bend that way would SERIOUSLY impede penetration. Beyond the points you made about penetration, with which I wholeheartedly concur, I suspect the pilum was also designed to function well as a melee weapon. The area behind the tang with its concave bevel seems very well suited to accommodate a hand thrusting the spear, and totally unnecessary if the pilum was meant to function as a javelin alone.

Hey Mat, If you test this: please try to record the amount of force that is transfered onto the shield. This will help to determine how much the shield would be pushed onto you, upon impact.

Matt! Great video is there any way you could make a video about the arms and armor of Cleopatra's Army during the time of Julius Caesar. Was it basically the same arms and armor as Alexander the Great's army or was it something completely different?

You can look for marks on soldiers left shoulder bones, if there're statisically many, to support what Matt is saying

I wonder what the pilum volley was like during a civil war when it was 2 Roman Armies vs. each other. I wonder if the battle came down to who had a better pilum volley?

@BigWillyG1000

4 жыл бұрын

It could certainly be a factor. When longbows met longbows in the Wars of the Rose several battles came down to who got the better opening volley of arrows. Towton was decided in part that way.

Pilum is back!

Good hypothesis, it's logical and makes sense, looking forward to the tests.

i'm pretty sure it is to prevent disarmament. spears were everywhere, and if you can chop the tip of a spear off, then they only have a staff. the longer you make the tip the less perpendicular the swipe. once you get an arm's length distance to the tip, opponents can't take the tip off.

please do also make tests of a Modified Pila-- where the second pin is wooden, and fragile when thrown, an evolution attributed to Marius and his "mules" which seems to have been a significant change. great stuff! thanks much.

As a character in Asterix once said " My pilum is harder than your sternum"....... oh yes....

In "De Bello Gallico" Julius Cesar describes in one battle report what the pila did. The enemy marched towards the stationary legions in tight formations with many shields overlapping. so the volley of pila nailed many shields together. Most of the front row fighters tried in vain to get the pila out of their shields with lots of wiggling and shaking and decided finally to continue the fight without them and, inevitably, getting slaughtered. As getting a straight metal stick out of a shield should normally be no big deal this points to the possibility that the shafts were indeed bending. It would anyway be not very smart to hurl a high tech missile weapon at an opponent and allowing him to throw it right back at you. It would be like nowadays throwing a frag grenade with a 5 sec fuse at an enemy familiar with that specification - it would come right back and detonate immediately. Additionally, when charging the legions at even a moderate pace, the shaft of the pilum would after shield impact immediately tilt down and get caught in the ground, temporarily stopping its owner and the ranks behind him.

Wonderful stuff. Looking forward to some empirical data. Flaxen Saxon.