Ok I'm done talking about the Rings of Power now, next up is some proper cinema; a discussion on one of the most enigmatic and (to me) fascinating European directors. I've already been working on it for a while and it should be out later this month! As always, if you want to support my work directly, consider checking out my Patreon page: www.patreon.com/LikeStoriesofOld Thanks!

@therapy2crew

Жыл бұрын

Unrelated to this vidéo, i would love to watch you talk about french director Leos Carax, his cinéma is really matching with your work.

@levih.2158

Жыл бұрын

some dogme 95 maybe?

@francalderonpalacios1347

Жыл бұрын

sub in spanish please xd

@karlpoppins

Жыл бұрын

Noooooo please do more RoP analysis videos! We need calm critical voices for this show, it's all either woke or anti-woke ;( I freakin' love how you deconstruct RoP with cinema/literature-based arguments and give us real insight as to why this show was so bad.

@modolief

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, ROP not worth talking about, except to point out megacorp trying to abuse iconic literature.

I guessed he was Sauron as soon as he said “Appearances can be deceiving.” Apparently I wasn’t alone

@backseatboysgaming6911

Жыл бұрын

"You know who I am, I know who you are" "Perhaps, but appearances... can be... deceptive." Fast forward to the Real Slim Lady praising Gandalf as the Dark Lord, "H-youu think that's a SCHWINN? HA"

@mamacoffeecat5542

Жыл бұрын

Yo sup Galli? Wouldn't it be craaaaaaaaaazy if I were Sauron? Huh? How insane would that be, right? Anyway don't suspect me at all.

@Needler13

Жыл бұрын

I knew it was him when main girl had the hots for him. This show is pure CW garbage.

@johns1625

Жыл бұрын

I knew he was Sauron when he was the only handsome white guy who wasn't a fool or a pushover or already a main character

@backseatboysgaming6911

Жыл бұрын

@@johns1625 Exactly. They gave out very specific clues and smacked us in the face with a dude that obviously checks every box.

You know, for how much they were trying to show the Wizard be good, but often failing, and Nori convincing him that he's a good man. I legitimately thought that it would be a fun twist if once the Wizard finally learns to speak-at the end of the series-we thought the whole time he's Gandalf, but then he utters his name "I am Saruman".

@johnnyritenbaugh1214

Жыл бұрын

Right?? I would have much preferred that. Especially since they are going to Rhun! Gandalf never ever went to Rhun, but Saruman did.

@Keldroc

Жыл бұрын

@@johnnyritenbaugh1214 And the blue wizards did before either of them, which is who the stranger is. No doubt the second blue wizard will be along in season 2 or 3.

@CutleryWonder

Жыл бұрын

I assumed he was Saruman. Makes more sense to me.

@Karpfenkroete

Жыл бұрын

@@CutleryWonder I was thinking that as well. Saruman was always about that conflict of good and evil. But after seeing the stranger's strong connection to halffoots, the way he talked to those fireflies and the motive of the moth... I'm certain he's Gandalf. At this point it would be disappointing if they would add in another twist to throw off people who paid attention.

@CutleryWonder

Жыл бұрын

@@Karpfenkroete Yeah, hard to say which way they'll go. I assumed Saruman because he was the first Istari to arrive in the books and the closeness of the name to Sauron could be why he thought he was him when told. Plus it would be surprising to casual watchers who would assume it was Gandalf.

Do you guys remember the old TV shows Xena: Warrior Princess or Hercules (the live action one with Kevin Sorbo)? Yeah, they felt cheap, the dialogue was often corny, the story wasn't riddled with deep surprises and intense drama... but they didn't take themselves too seriously, and they were fun fantasy stories. Rings of Power felt exactly like those, except it took itself very seriously and wasn't fun.

@johnnyritenbaugh1214

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, the show thinks itself profound--like those ludicrous "wise-words" that Galadriel's brother tells her about why boats float. I've heard better lines in Spongebob.

@rosysulla

Жыл бұрын

Xena and Hercules were amazing well written shows that run circles around ROP.

I think one of the issues with the Stranger is that him being Gandalf doesn't really matter to the show - it's only the audience that cares about Gandalf one way or the other.

@elizabethification771

Жыл бұрын

The audience that's coming in with previous knowledge too. People who have seen the movies or read the books. The entire thing relied on nostalgia.

For some reason, I never even realised that I was suppossed to try to solve any mystery boxes. "The Stranger" was an obvious Gandalf for me and I never spared it another thought and I had no idea I was suppossed to look for Sauron, given that he had already been shown as a 3 metres armored monster.

@tarettime9392

Жыл бұрын

That’s kinda how it was for me in episode 2 I figured out it was Gandalf and it took me way too long to figure out halbrand was Sauron cause I wasn’t looking for him

@datonkallandor8687

Жыл бұрын

I was really hoping the Stranger would actually be Sauron, and there'd be a period of time of redemption for him.

@seragx99

Жыл бұрын

Yeah! I made an extensive comment about it! To me it was a twist because I completely forgot about sauron at all, I even was surprised to see people were trying to figure out who sauron was because I thought, come on man, then show is not about that! And what do you know, it was supposed to be a mistery after all!

@mallorycarpinski1160

Жыл бұрын

@@tarettime9392 Same. It didn't really become clear until like episode 5 or 6 with the whole "Adar" story line. And then I was like..."Bet its Halbrand. Even though that actually isn't remotely logical"

@tiestofalljays

Жыл бұрын

@@datonkallandor8687 No. Sauron is not a redeemable dude. This is all his choice. The only period when he was arguably ‘repentant’ was after the War of Wrath, and that was simply because he was SCARED SHITLESS by the Valar. The Valar had just thrown his master [Morgoth] literally out of existence, why would he try to stand up to them? So he ran. Little baby Sauron.

they definitely subverted my expectation when they reveal that this galadriel is the same galadriel from the LOTR. Man, all this time I thought she was just some elf name galadriel.

@calamitysangfroid2407

Жыл бұрын

that would've been so funny and then they kill her off at the end of the season and someone else becomes the main character

@veronicav575

Жыл бұрын

😂😂😂😂

Out of all the poorly executed things about the Sauron mystery box, Galadriel has to be the worst of them. She never suspected anything, never bothered to question things happening right in front of her, until the very end. When she was finally suspicious of Halbrand, she confronted him. She confronted -alone and armed only with a measly dagger- the being she suspected to be the Evil Lord, who she had been hunting for hundreds of years, with no plan and no back-up. And afterwards, she just dismissed the whole thing with next to no consequences for her or the plan the elves were carrying out. I think that the "big reveal" happened in some elven back-alley because this was supposed to be a big reveal for her and her character, not for the entire world. But nothing happens to her, she doesn't change, she doesn't repent, she continues to be the same callous person she was. It's terrible.

@pressrepeat2000

Жыл бұрын

Great analysis. Like so much else in this show, her actions didn’t make any sense. It’s just crazy, considering her whole story is about her search for him.

@josephkelly6681

Жыл бұрын

She's already perfect so how could she have developed? I mean, besides being arrogant, rash, dismissive, and oblivious. Not to mention lava proof.

@stephaniem6482

Жыл бұрын

It reminded me of the movie MacGyver where his opponent thinks he's dead, but instead of using that to his advantage, he pops up and goes "hey! look! I'm still alive!"....... that was Galadriel popping up in front of Sauron with no plan whatsoever and saying "Hey! I know you're Sauron!" She's just painfully incompetent.

@verindictus3639

Жыл бұрын

And in the actual books, Galadriel was, from the very start, suspicious of Annatar the lord of gifts (that's what he was called in the actual canon, not "Halbrand"). She didn't have any idea who he actually was, but she did know there was something dark and suspicious about him. It was other elves, like Celebrimbor, who fell for his deception.

@cruddddddddddddddd

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that made absolutely no sense at all. Compare that scene to Mace Windu grabbing a few Jedi Masters to confront Palpatine and accuse him of being the secret Dark Lord of the Sith. It didn't go well, and all but Windu even survived to the end of the fight (I'm not saying the SW Prequels are incredible movies, but even Lucas was smart enough to know that Windu would not have confronted the big bad on his own).

As a die hard fan of the lore, I had thought Halbrand would be Sauron from episode 2, but I was really hoping I'd be wrong and they'd make him the witch king instead. They were being so obvious with the Sauron hints that I thought it must be misdirection. Was super disappointing that they were just being that straight forward the whole time.

@schwarzerritter5724

Жыл бұрын

An origin story of the Witch King would have been a lot more interesting.

@jhmi7877

Жыл бұрын

For me, it was either the Witch King or the King of the Dead. Both of those needed some fleshing out and Halbrand's storyline, without the little quips he was making about being Sauron, would've worked out for either of those characters.

@klodd5328

Жыл бұрын

Bruh that was exactly my train of thought for the whole season. I was like "This dudes Sauron it's so obvious" and then I was like "naaah man it's so stupidly obvious it can not be Sauron, but there is sth evil about him and he's a forgotten king of the south so maybe he's going to be one of the ringwraiths or even the Witch King himself, it would be so epic to watch his story play out!!!" Holy shit was I disappointed with his "reveal" in the end, I struggle to even put it into words..

@ralphengland8559

Жыл бұрын

Yes! I thought he would be one of the minions, not Sauron himself.

@ismailkn

Жыл бұрын

I thought he would be the Witch King too

My issue with him being Sauron was when he wasn’t on screen with other characters, he didn’t act like how Sauron would act. Like why was he so concerned with stealing a smith’s credential and to start forging things? I get that he was a smith apprentice as a Maiar, but he wasn’t obsessed with it. And he seriously considered staying in Numenor. Why? If he wanted to stay there and sew discord, then why when Galadriel called him out the last episode did he make it seem like his plan the whole time was to go back to middle earth? And how did he end up in the sea right on a collision course with Galadriel? Too many serendipitous things have to happen for this plan to make sense and if this all was an on the fly plan, then the dumb luck just goes through the roof

@scambammer6102

Жыл бұрын

and what was he doing on a raft in the middle of the ocean?

@headphonic8

Жыл бұрын

It's "sow" discord. As in, "you reap what you sow"

@pittland44

Жыл бұрын

The problem is that none of it worked. None of the show's setup works when you think about it. Why had he stopped being Sauron and was masquerading as Halbrand? That's the one that makes the least amount of sense to me. Like when Sauron poses as Annatar and gives the elves a lot of good advice and teaches them a lot of craft (aka magic) his endgame is to forge the rings and enslave their great lords to his will. Men he can corrupt with ease, but elves are a lot harder so he had to find a means to do so. So Sauron, whom Tolkien states of old was a master of phantoms and changing shapes (as seen in his epic standoff with Luthien). So he assumes a fair form and poses as an emissary of the Valar to trick the elves, and even then that doesn't entirely work as Galadriel and Later Elrond and Gil-Galad don't trust him, but Celebrimbor and his people do. So everything Sauron did as Annatar makes perfect sense, but nothing in ROP works with Halbrand. What was his goal? He got Mordor turned into the black land, but he could have done that without ever going to Numenor. If wanted to trick the elves, which he sort of did, that could have been done without going to sea either. If he wanted to corrupt the Numenoreans, which didn't make sense either because in this version they're isolationist and don't have any desire to visit Middle Earth (which also doesn't make sense with certain pieces of information), then he should have stayed in Numenor. If he was there to corrupt the Dunedain, then he should have stayed close to the Numenorean royalty he met, rather than just hang out with common people. None of his actions add up, and it just irritates me just thinking about it.

Just something to ponder about, I think, is the interesting fact that Tolkien apparantly was not very fond of what's called "Mystery Boxes". Which doesn't mean that he rejected Mystery alltogether. But he was usually very uppfront in his story telling, the characters their goals and motivations. He mentioned for example that he despised allegorys.

@seragx99

Жыл бұрын

I'm not a fan of Tolkien (not that I don't like his work, just haven't read anything of his work) and I even knew that he hated allegories. The Sauron twist came as a shock to me because I didn't even realize it was a mistery at all. Au contraire I was kind of disappointed that no one told me why I would even hate or fear Sauron, as I said I only have the movies as reference and in them Sauron is basically just the bad guy, since the goal of the movie was basically destroy the mcguffin (the ring) that was basically what mattered in the story and Sauron only mattered as the guy in the background. But here I was disappointed after a couple of chapters to just see galadriel so obsessed that I couldn't help but simpathize with his soldiers and the people who wanted her to stop. Not even her relationship to her brother which triggered her anger was fully fleshed, it was only a very cold dialogue and bam! War and everybody hates Sauron! But why, what did he want? Who was he? Why was he so powerful? How did he gather an army? That is what really bothered me since the first half of episode 1. I forgot about him since it was evident there was absolutely no fckn clue of were he was. I thought that was the mistery, where is Sauron, not "who" is Sauron.

@onedoesnotsimplyreadthecom5711

Жыл бұрын

@@seragx99 I think this is the biggest of the many problems with this show. Sauron has absolutely no presence, there's no reason to fear him. In the LOTR movies you know Sauron is a threat because we see his influence in the world, we see what he is causing to the peoples of middle earth, and we especially see his influence through the ring, which is essentially an extension of his will, and in the books it's even more perceptible, to the point where it feels like he's present at every moment despite never appearing physically. This show tries to make you fear Sauron by making trees die and cows leak petroleum, and saying that he killed this (from a casual's perspective) ramdom elf who's Galadriel's brother (because that's all he really is in this show). You know why this show doesn't give you any actual reason to fear him? Because there's none! At this point in the books he hasn't really done that much yet. People would still fear him and remember him as a powerful evil general, but no one would really think he was A: Still around, B: Potentially gonna become the Dark Lord we see in LOTR. This series is settled at the time when Sauron really makes his name. During the Second Age (the timespan where the show is settled) he disguises himself as Annatar, the lord of gifts, and manipulates Celebrimbor into forging the rings in Eregion, while he forges in secret the one ring. You know this story, since it's show at the begining of LOTR. What you don't know, and what this series should be showing to make you fear him, is that right after that he wages war against the elves, a battle occours where he destroys Eregion, he kills Celebrimbor and uses his body as a banner, the doors of Durin are closed forever so that the dwarves wouldn't be attacked by the forces of Sauron, that now control where Eregion used to be. After centuries of war between the elves and Sauron the Numenorians, led by Ar-Pharazon (the guy who is the queen regent's cousin in the show. In the books he forced her to marry him and took her place on the throne) go to the front of the black gate to battle against Sauron (I'd explain the reason, but it'd go off topic) but when they arive they encounter Sauron himself alone in front of his gate, and he surrendered to them. Sauron is then taken prisioner by the Numenoreans, and you know what happens next? In just a few years, through sheer manipulation he goes from being Númenor's greatest prisioner to the chief counceler of the king, Ar-Pharazon. He induces Ar-Pharazon into defying literal gods and the consequence for that is that the whole island of Númenor is flooded and buried under the sea, as well as other (literal) worldshaping consequences. This is why you should fear Sauron, his title is The Deciever, that is his greatest strength and it's what makes him capable of breaking the free people's world apart. It's obvious that the show couldn't depict all of that in one season, but at the very least the forging of the rings should be going on from the very early episodes. The show conveys that something wrong is going on, but it's never urgent, and there are no real consequences shown so there are no stakes. And when it is finally revealed who Sauron is it doesn't really tie back to anything that happened for the entire season. The show doesn't give any real reason to believe any of the bad things happening are because of Sauron. It feels more like he arived at the end of the season and just took advantage of the job Adar did (except not actually since we don't really see him do anything when he arrives at Mordor). Or are these showrunners gonna try to tell me that it was all part of his plan that trees would be dying, cows would be sick, his old enemy would be plotting to create Mordor, and with all that set up he would for some reason be in the middle of the sea, randomly encounter Galadriel there, go to Númenor, pretend he doesn't want to go to the Southland for some days, agree to go to the Southlands at the right moment to arive there as soon as his old enemy activates a machinery to create Mordor, purposefully get hurt so that Galadriel would take him to Eriador, AND THEN manipulate Celebrimbor into forging the Rings? I hate this show.

@jacobb5484

Жыл бұрын

@@onedoesnotsimplyreadthecom5711 for that kind of Sauron to work he really needs to be in control the whole time with enough whit and charisma for the audience to like him even knowing what he’d become.

@renatopinto3186

Жыл бұрын

I'm not very knowledgeable on Tolkien's work, but I've read some biographies and he's imbued a lot of his universe with Christian mythos. So allegories should abound. Is this fallen guy canon? I'm asking because I've heard these TV series take some wild liberties. And the first thing I thought of was how it would be Sauron "falling from grace", as Lucifer did.

@onedoesnotsimplyreadthecom5711

Жыл бұрын

@@jacobb5484 Exactly

Your retelling to the point when Galadriel puts the knife to Halbrand's neck and Mount Doom erupts gave me goosebumps

@BarackObamaJedi

Жыл бұрын

Yes, it was amazing! I was about to comment the same thing. This rewrite is original trilogy level of quality

@Cordovan

Жыл бұрын

HOLY SHIT ME TOO!!! 😵😵❤❤

@secretcrocodile7499

Жыл бұрын

it was better but as he pointed out it had his own problems since the entire series is constrained by the major plot points of the books and one of the biggest plot points is that sauron deceived the elves to create the rings. How do you fit that in? That said how the show actually did it wasn't very good

@iamrubenmes

Жыл бұрын

That was gold story writing

@traviswclarkin

Жыл бұрын

It really did. It's kind of amazing that just by reframing everything that scene felt so much more powerful.

I absolutely had *chills* when you rearranged the main storyline between Galadriel and Sauron. That moment of realization versus Mount Doom’s birth is…absolutely mind blowing. It’s insane to think this isn’t the original show. I’m calling for some kind of fan edit; like ‘Northwest Passage’ for Twin Peaks, or ‘Star Wars I without Jar-Jar’ - with this arrangement of the reveal. It’s almost unbelievable how a simple rearrangement of the timing creates an actually effective story.

@CorePathway

Жыл бұрын

It’s almost unbelievable how this shite script was approved. Frikkin amateur hour.

@lennysmileyface

Жыл бұрын

Still worse than if they just started over and actually followed the lore.

@dalellll

Жыл бұрын

How could you do Star Wars: Phatnom Menace and leave out the secret sith lord behind everything that happens tho

@mstaken4me

Жыл бұрын

@@lennysmileyface well; no shit.The disregard for the core Lore is certainly the most offensive bit of this pile of garbage put to screen. Besides that; Galadriel has to be the single worst; most unlikeable, disgusting; bizarre leading character in a series I have ever seen. I have more empathy for Alex in a Clockwork Orange than I do for that textbook example of a Mary Sue. I'm a lesbian trans woman, and the levels of woke they're trying to cram into this shit makes me want to vomit. The only worse recent 'show' is the below-shit-level 'She-Hulk, which is hardly a 'show' as it is just misandry put to video.

@lennysmileyface

Жыл бұрын

@@mstaken4me I hope Amazon loses hundreds of millions of dollars for this. Maybe they will realize that the real audience and not the fabricated "mOdErN aUdIeNcE" don't appreciate content that is solely created as a vessel for activism. It feels like I'm just donating to the ACLU and getting a wristband whenever I watch this trash.

The reference to Galadriel's temptation and line-for-line take from the book/movie scene when Frodo offers Galadriel the ring felt so unearned in this show. It's a shame, but I think even Tolkien knew some of his work was best left as history/fable instead of living enactment.

@samfilmkid

Жыл бұрын

@@aelm666 That's a great way to put it.

@NMahon

Жыл бұрын

Tolkien always said that he wanted people to add to his work and develop it further

@smithynoir9980

Жыл бұрын

@@NMahon If only those adding to Tolkiens work and developing it further had any respect for Tolkien's work in the first place.

@eonwe5885

Жыл бұрын

It's was disastrous for the narrative and character. The Fellowship temptation is rendered irrelevant, since Galadriel has been there and done that, she 'passed the test' millennia previously with no intervening character development. Also, there was no proper set up: at no point was it established that Galadriel wanted to be a queen. All she was shown to want was vengeance against Sauron. I was mad about that from the start, since a scene in which she explicitly and concretely rejects a return to Valinor ought to have set up the Fellowship temptation. But they could have partly salvaged it by introducing the theme later. But no, Sauron just decides that Galadriel wants to be a queen, on zero basis whatsoever. Big character moment for her.

@Tamajyn69

Жыл бұрын

When all of the stories have been written there's no room left for the imagination

your retelling of Halbeand’s story was gripping. that was really well orchestrated sequentially for a big emotional payoff that I felt even in the brief overview you shared with the existing shots. both Galadriel and Halbrand would have seemed much more responsible for the climactic events.

@Handle35667

Жыл бұрын

Yeah….Sauron redirects the water some 50-150 miles to a dormant volcano in the span of time Galadriel chases Adar on horseback. It’s a great rewrite!

@CorePathway

Жыл бұрын

I bailed after the first episode, and tracked the show via KZread creators. It was clear the show was Marvel, not Tolkien. To be fair Peter Jackson’s Hobbit, turning Bilbo into Rambo was also shite.

@lennysmileyface

Жыл бұрын

@@Handle35667 Don't know why Galadriel even needs to spend so much time around Sauron anyway?

@MikoGot

Жыл бұрын

@@Handle35667 still better than original stuff

@fornamnefternamn1532

Жыл бұрын

@@CorePathway Rambo? I thought it felt like the Star wars prequels ... only worse haha.

Damn, your reimagination of the Gandalf arc genuinely moved me. There was so much potential in this production. The fact it's been wasted so terribly is outrageous.

@SirTweaksalot92

Жыл бұрын

Brought a tear to my eye to see what could have been with just a little effort by anyone who understands actual storytelling.

@TheCrimsonPope

Жыл бұрын

@@SirTweaksalot92 Exactly...

@daniel4647

Жыл бұрын

I don't agree. Doing this story line would have made Gandalf too human which would have made his character boring. I liked the Gandalf story line as it was, not because there was some mystery to his identity, but because it showed how inhuman wizards in the Tolkien universe are. I think this is something that is heavily lacking in most story telling, especially with visual mediums, instead they just make everything relatable to boring human drama. A whole story about "buhu, why did I come here? I just hurt people? Maybe everyone would be better off without me?" would have totally put me off. Instead it showed someone that was not born, someone that seemingly had no experience with physical reality at all, someone that didn't even understand the concept of life and death until he experienced it. And they did this visually without using words to explain anything, I think it was done very well and it's what made the Gandalf story interesting. This type of story telling runs trough the whole show, and it's also what made the elves interesting. The elves in this show aren't just humans with pointy ears and pretty clothes, it's made very obvious that their behavior, society, ways of dealing with things, philosophy, etc, is on a totally different level, they're not just visually different, they're actually more evolved than humans on every level. This comes across very well in the story without being explicitly stated because it's injected into every detail. The same is true for the Gandalf story, you can see him discovering this world and himself and his powers trough out the whole season. It's not a mystery to us who or what he is, it's a mystery to him, and that made him a fascinating character. I actually wish they had taken it further because I felt like the Sauron cultists giving him a bunch of knowledge just like that, with magic or whatever, seemed a bit rushed, I wish he had discovered himself and the world trough his own exploration instead.

@TheIndianaGeoff

Жыл бұрын

I agree. One of the greatest good character arcs is always the balance between saving everyone and defeating evil. A good character has to sacrifice some of their goodness to do the things you have to do to defeat the larger evil. That would have been a far more interesting story. And the future hobbits sacrificing voluntarily for him could help him to realize that it is worth it. The Gandalf of Lord of the Rings has hundreds of years doing this and realizes it must be done. The Gandalf of RoP should be experiencing this lesson for the first time. Season one can be learning it, but then trying to compensate by becoming close to no one. Season two can be about him being forced to ally with people he might hurt and resisting it causing even more carnage. Season three can be learning to make the right battlefield decisions and loving people anyway, even if it might end up in hurt. Because spending time and love with others is the really more important than anything and the reason for the war.

@onedoesnotsimplyreadthecom5711

Жыл бұрын

@@bring-out I agree with you for the most part, I think this show did a terrible job with Gandalf's origin story, but I get where the guy above is coming from. There's a strong human aspect to Gandalf in the books as you pointed out. It is a (very) important aspect of his character, but not the only one. There IS an inhuman aspect to Gandalf that I'd say is just as important, he is a friend and he can live among the peoples of middle earth, but he is still a character of divine nature. The way he is presented in important scenes like when he stands agains the Balrog or the Witch King, or when he speaks to Théoden to clear his mind, and several other points in the story, is as someone who is beyond humanity, a being of high wisdom and power. I would say Gandalf can be human sometimes, but whenever he's in a situation regarding his appointed duty, he should be portrayed a divine being far higher than a human.

What you're referring to is J.J. Abrams' mystery box, which he talked about during a Ted Talk 14 years ago. Funnily enough, the showrunners have worked under J.J. Abrams and even got this job thanks to his influence. So that should explain why this show feels like it paces the same way as Lost does.

@KonaSuba

Жыл бұрын

It's in my opinion that Lost ruined TV. Mystery box after mystery box and constantly putting out new seasons even though the show should have ended years prior.

@d3nza482

Жыл бұрын

@@KonaSuba Correction. Jar Jar ruined fiction writing across the board. Arguably, some of the non-fiction as well. Too many documentaries and shows based on actual events today feel like just a pile of filler, strung together with hyperboles and constant teasing of some big reveal.

@KonaSuba

Жыл бұрын

@@d3nza482 I totally agree

@ianashmore9910

Жыл бұрын

@@KonaSuba No, Real World ruined TV.

@CabezasDePescado

Жыл бұрын

That is the only thing abrams foea: he setups misteries without even having a broad idea of the answer. And then he just improvises without care.

Mystery boxes in any narrative have become one of my fears, I know that a good hook is necessary for the audience but a lot of the times the mystery box ends up twisting the narrative in an effort to appear way more interesting than what it is

@scambammer6102

Жыл бұрын

mystery box is lazy writing when they are used in lieu of a narrative. they can be an effective device as PART of a narrative.

@jacobb5484

Жыл бұрын

@@scambammer6102 they’re especially bad when the reveal is completely ignored in favor of the journey being dragged out for way too long. A bad hook with a great payoff is usually enjoyable especially on a rewatch. A great hook with a lame reveal is usually disappointing. A good explanation doesn’t always have to act as a resolution, it can also help you understand key pieces other mysteries, creates drama and setups up more complex plots. While a mystery box is a good tool when used right when overused it can destroy otherwise interesting stories.

@arenkai

Жыл бұрын

Wheel of Time basically I'm still mad about that "who's the Dragon" nonsense

The real problem is that the writers never read about "How write characters that are smarter than you"

@rutufn0596

Жыл бұрын

Nor "How to create fan fiction without being really a fan"

@patrickstewart3446

Жыл бұрын

That would explain why so many writers today treat “smart” as “stupid but with bigger words.”

@frocat5163

Жыл бұрын

To be fair, it's impossible to write a character smarter than yourself. Literally impossible. You can't write thoughts, plans or actions for a character if you're incapable of even _conceiving_ those things...and if you can conceive those things for a character you're writing, then the character isn't more intelligent than you. The best you can do when writing about a character more intelligent than yourself is write about the results of a character's intelligence; you can't adequately portray it in what you've written. For example, if you were to write a story about Einstein developing his Theory of Relativity and you don't understand the mathematics he used to develop it, you can't write about his thought process or the details of the mathematical work he did to develop it. The best you can do is write vaguely about him working on equations and eventually arriving at his theory.

@stargazerorion9209

Жыл бұрын

Oh cmon guys, Its clear as light of the trees that novadays screenplays are seems get from dumpster on the office corner even for AAA titles. But reason, i'm pretty sure, is not because screenwriters suddenly became more stupid then before. I see the point of new beginning somewhere around 2008 right after the screenwriters strike. Strikers are been able to get sort of agreement and benefits. But the decline of scripts quality after that is obvious. Probably the strong professionals are working on a few projects at the same time and ofcourse they able to focus only on one of the many. Or even indian guys wrights the scripts for the low price, and they don't give a fuck about quality. And producers decide that on a new terms after strike its to expencive to have a personal strong wrighters team for the one show, so... They cut this expences and retargeted marketing focus in method of brief interest. Probably subscription money been way better paid of if customer had an illusion of content abundance than actual content. I mean ROP doesn't look on $125 mil per episode, but it still has some prominent looks. Script is a disaster, but it doesn't meant in fact that some imbecile raised by nepotism was in charge of this script. It could be a wrong attitude of talented people, or some unexpected factors like misconduction between directors team and wrighters. Or even crazy supervision behind amazon money.

@etilworg

Жыл бұрын

@@frocat5163 you need to read about "How write characters that are smarter than you" 👍

Loved your alternative story for the Sauron reveal - letting him create Mordor would have been so much more intense.

Much like the star wars prequels, you already know who is going to survive and who the bad guys are. How it happens is far more important than cheap twists or character reveals, and your version is far more compelling

@ultron374

Жыл бұрын

True 👏

A lot of KZread channels publicly predicted that Halbrand was Sauron after the very first episode. The rationale reduced to, “ok, you have this white male, who’s handsome, dashing, heroic, and not effeminate or weak. Therefore, he’s obviously the bad guy.” They were right

@FilmscoreMetaler

Жыл бұрын

Many channels predicted many things that turned out to be wrong.

@cardboard2night

Жыл бұрын

I believe it was leaked that Halbrand is Sauron, so all you have to do was paying attention to him... Still shit writing, but youtube channels that predicted it didn't actually "predict", they just justified their own prejudices about show.

@TruckeeDoggo

Жыл бұрын

@@cardboard2night it wasn’t the watcher’s prejudices, it was the show’s. The point was that the show’s messaging was so transparent and shallow that you could predict what particular characters would do based almost entirely on who they cast for the role.

@xf171

Жыл бұрын

@@cardboard2night I didn't know about the leak, neither read/heard any news about the show before release, and it still was obvious af to me the first second he was introduced

@TruckeeDoggo

Жыл бұрын

@@xf171 That "leak" was deliberately wrong and orchestrated by Amazon to protect the "secret" that Halbrand=Sauron. Amazon started leaking misdirection that Halbrand was actually the witch king of Angmar, not Sauron

I am still baffled how these show runners with almost zero credits to their names were able to helm a billion dollar franchise. Apparently JJ Abrams made a call on their behalf? If I were an exec and JJ Abrams was vouching for someone to take a giant franchise like this I would be looking elsewhere for writers given his handling of the latest Star Wars films.

@jimihendrix23456

Жыл бұрын

That's because you give a fuck about story quality. Execs don't care past the amount of money you make, and Abrams made a lot of money with those Star Wars movies, in spite of their lack of quality. Rogue One, the best of Disney Star Wars imo, grossed less than any of the ST movies. The execs think "This very profitable writer/director recommended these people, and they're writing in a universe many people are invested in, so they will make me a profitable story." Why would you care about the story's quality when you can likely make bank regardless?

@paulheitkemper1559

Жыл бұрын

@@jimihendrix23456 R1 was a wretchedly badly told story with a cool battle scene at the end.

@blackfang101

Жыл бұрын

@@paulheitkemper1559 still, it was the only thing worth watching that i have seen of the newer stuff so far. On a whole it would beat the clone wars movie if only it wasn't for the absolutely brilliant clone reveal execution. Magnificent aren't they. Which is unfortunately something i can't extend to any of the other new movies and series that i have watched so far, i havent gotten into mandalorian and andor yet tough, and i am scared to try.

@paulheitkemper1559

Жыл бұрын

@@blackfang101 Most all of Mando is acceptable. Almost none of Book of Boba Fett or ObiWan is worth a crap. I hear that Andor is very good, but by now, I'm too jaded to care.

@nationalsocialism3504

Жыл бұрын

@@blackfang101 that's like claiming something is the tastiest dogshit from among the piles in a backyard

Somehow being so diplomatic at 12:32 talking about how Sauron’s reveal is tricky feels even harsher than just saying the writers are incompetent

I really like your rewriting of Halbrand's arc because it pairs up Sauron revealing himself to a volcanic explosion, and if that doesn't scream Dark Lord of Mass Destruction, AND Mordor, nothing does. And then the show could have gotten onto the "let's forge rings" plot - with Halbrand, still in disguise because Galadriel barely survived and hasn't managed to spread the news about him yet, advising the Elven lords (as he does in the books). But the casting of the rings themselves would have been for the SECOND season - it would have merely been planned at the end of the first one (and also the whole season should have been shorter).

"At some point people are going to stop caring." That's why Miss Edel says "A story that never ends is a cruel thing" in the series Princess Tutu. Which ran 26 episodes and wrapped up everything very nicely at the end. No frustration, no cliffhangers, just a good resolution that doesn't make you feel you wasted your time.

@tjenadonn6158

Жыл бұрын

Better to leave them wanting more than wishing you gave them less. That's why I'm hoping Vince Gilligan and the rest of the crew stick to their guns about the season finale of Better Call Saul being the final piece of media produced within the BBBCSverse/Gulliverse/Albuquerque Noir universe/whatever you call it. We learned all we need to know about that world and those characters, all the lines worth exploring have been run from end to end. We don't need a prequel about Gus Fring's origin and life with Max or Walter White's college years, we don't need a sequel focusing on Kim Wexler getting her groove back or Hank Jr. coping with the fallout of being the son of one of the most notorious drug kingpins in the nation. Walt is dead, having accomplished what he originally set out to do after seeing the product of his hubris destroy his empire and his family. Jesse is free and living clean under a new name after settling his old scores and working to overcome the trauma of his years in the drug industry. Jimmy is in prison after finally coming to grips with and accepting responsibility for his actions and shedding the personality-shaped coping mechanism that was Saul Goodman. Three more perfect bows couldn't be put on a series of creative works, and it would be a shame to undo them.

@headphonic8

Жыл бұрын

Just like the Avatar series! Only 3 seasons with a planned storyline

@seaurchin4522

Жыл бұрын

Omg Princess Tutu. I didn't think I'd ever find anyone else that knew of it/ remembered it. So weird seeing it mentioned here, but so perfect. That unlocked a core memory for me so thank you lol 😂

your storyline in 20 minutes gave me goosebumps and more meaning that I felt watching the entire season

@alperenelbasan7909

Жыл бұрын

I had goosebumps from that edit. Damn it’s a shame to see our beloved LOTR massacred the way it is

Mystery boxes leading to McGuffins leading to dei ex machina leading to a Rube Goldberg machine causing an impossible geologic event and the greatest set of anticlimaxes in cinematic history. There might have been characters in there somewhere, I'm not sure. The bright colors and serious faces hypnotized me.

@joshuafischer684

Жыл бұрын

Don't forget how the entire script was lifted whole cloth from "I'm 14 and this is deep" reddit posts.

You could solve the forge thing by pulling a westword and making the elrond plot discontinuous to the numenor plot. Have "Anatar" appear in eregion helping forge the ring, and the reveal at the end is "Anatar" being expelled at the end for being Sauron and winding up on a raft in the middle of the ocean somehow as a result and then changing his name and face to halbrand. They were so little connected and these lifetimes are so long there could easily be a century in between.

The showrunners have stated we'll learn more about Halbrand and his "plans" in S2. I think the larger issue with Halbrand/Sauron that frustrates the first season is that the writers are unsure if Sauron is actually repentant or feigning repentance as part of some plan. Tolkien's writing states that Sauron was repentant for a time after Morgoth's defeat, but that he was too prideful to plea his case before the Valar and descended back into evil. The show is undecided as to whether they want to portray a repentant Sauron who is unwittingly led back to evil by Galadriel's narrow-minded mission or if he's actually just evil the entire time and manipulating everyone behind the scenes. Halbrand/Sauron can't have a "plan" if he's actually repentant and just trying to live his life as a regular dude for the moment. But at the same time, how do you have a repentant "dude" also end up manipulating the Elves into creating Rings of Power (which he secretly can influence) and establish his stronghold in Mordor? So for now we have this odd middle road where nothing actually feels right. If Sauron was truly just trying to be good and rather got tempted back into evil due to Galadriel's unknowing insistence that a person's "mission" is more important than whatever feelings or deeds they've done in the past, then was him meeting Galadriel just a chance? Was him arriving in Numenor also just a lucky situation? And was him ending up in Eregion with Celebrimbor also just another lucky occurrence? And so is it that once he arrived at Eregion he became too tempted upon seeing how close Celebrimbor was to solving his own work and there and then enacted his plot with creating the rings? OR Is that Halbrand/Sauron was always evil and despite all his talk about being disillusioned and not wanting to claim his "kingdom" and just wanting to be left alone, was all of that just a ploy to get Galadriel to eventually take him to Eregion? If so, that was a REALLY convoluted plan.

@jhmi7877

Жыл бұрын

I think what they were going with was that at first, he was repentant. While in Numenor, he was content with just sitting back and laying low for awhile but Galadriel kept prodding him to take charge and be king. He obliges to help her, but it wasn't until he fought orcs and protected the villagers did he finally realize that he wants to go back to being dark lord again (since his whole shtick is that he wants to dominate to create peace and order). And then, that's when he started hashing out a plan. This version still has a lot of holes and is still convoluted in its own way. It doesn't explain his meeting with Galadriel in the middle of the sea, other than it being by chance (which is hella weak, in my opinion). It also doesn't explain how he knows what was happening in Eregion, that Celebrimbor had the mithril, that he could craft the rings there, etc. since the show doesn't allude to him ever being in those parts. Also I hate that this storyline just straight up puts the blame on Galadriel for bringing him back to evil, so honestly, it could just get scrapped lol

Find waldo in 8 episodes, only $1 lB

What I found utterly absurd was that Galadriel has spent hundreds of years hunting Sauron... yet when he's standing right in front of her, she has no idea it's him. You would think that she would have gathered some kind of intel on him in her hundred-years long hunt - that he could change form or enter minds or something. In LOTR she can enter minds and sense the Fellowships' feelings. Yet she in RoP her elf senses didn't even pick up on "oh gee he's not human". The season finale reveal was so flat. I wasn't surprised and I didn't care and I thought she was so stupid to confront him on her own when she is literally in the middle of the elf kingdom and all she has to do is whistle dixie to rustle for 200 guards to come to her side. It was so disapointing that RoP made Galadriel an idiot.

@queenberuthiel5469

6 ай бұрын

Heck all elves who lived in Valinor knew the Ainur and knew what they're capable of. The real Galadriel is not a moron like the one in the show. They purposely made her an idiot to move the effing plot. Just pathetic.

Congratulations. You’re a better writer than the RoP dudes. Revealing Sauron as he creates Mordor would’ve been BADASS

If we want a more complete rewrite for Halbrand's story that preserves some mystery, it could go something like this: Halbrand happens to be on a ship that finds Galadriel lost at sea. He isn't on a raft, he's a passenger on a Numenorean ship. And a respected one at that. He helps Galadriel out of the ocean and immediately becomes fascinated with her, asking where she came from and how she ended up in the sea. She is of course suspicious of this man, but as they return to Numenor he explains that he is an advisor to the king, and that while sailing up the coast for a court summons his ship was coincidentally (wink) blown far out to sea by a storm. Exploring Numenor, it becomes clear to Galadriel that Halbrand isn't Numenorean. He eventually confesses to be from a line of crafstmen from the southlands, and that he was brought to Numenor when he was just "a young and angry boy" and that he is grateful to be accepted among them. Shenanigans and help from Halbrand happens, she finds out the stupid map symbol, add a seemingly throwaway line about Halbrand being so skilled in metalworks that he even provided notes to the great Celebrimbor on some secret project, etc. Galadriel, grateful for his help, begs him to join her on her quest to protect the southlands. He hesitates, citing vague guilt and shame for his past there, but she insists he must go to clear his conscience. So he reluctantly agrees to go as a representative of Numenor. So he goes along and when the time comes, some believe him to be the lost king. They practically throw themselves at him, desperate for a savior and a protector from the orcs. Still others question it, question if he is even one of their people. He starts working to prove himself, suddenly loving the idea of being their king. Galadriel realizes this is a weird change of heart and pulls him aside to ask what's up. Without revealing who he is, Halbrand starts talking about how he had all but given up his old designs, that his long time with the Numenoreans in all their grandeur had almost convinced him that mankind was better off without him. But just as he had faltered, Galadriel had insisted upon bringing him home. She had begged him to come and save this land, and she was right to. "Don't you see, these people need me to rule them, they want it from the bottom of their hearts! How can I refuse when they are so scared and weak that they would throw themselves at the feet of a stranger?" Galadriel finally puts it all together and he makes his reveal for the audience. "I am no advisor from Numenor or the son of a smith. I am the lost king of this land. I am Sauron." Trigger volcanic eruption that he set into motion while Galadriel was busy, bada bing bada boom, Mordor is born and Galadriel learns that her obsession with fighting evil only brought it back into the world.

@CreativeIsolation

Жыл бұрын

Damn, nicely done.

@jhmi7877

Жыл бұрын

My main issue with the Sauron + Galadriel arc is how the show placed blame on Galadriel for Sauron's eventual return to evil. That is a pretty big change to those characters, IMO. So I like your edit for sure, because Sauron actually does work to deceive Galadriel, instead of her unwittingly pushing him back to his evil self due to her own weaknesses. Because of this, I would probably slightly change your edit a little bit, to take out that part where Galadriel begs him to join her to go to the Southlands and he initially refuses. Instead, he works to build trust in her in various ways through their time in Numenor and though she remains watchful, she warms up to him a little. Perhaps he could plant information about Adar's presence in the Southlands to throw off both Galadriel's and the viewer's suspicions (so the act of him planting this would be subtle enough that viewers are unlikely to catch it at first glance). Then when the time comes to go to the Southlands, because Halbrand not only built some trust with Galadriel but also the other Numenorians, his presence within their army as a volunteer wasn't in question. The rest would follow you and LSOO's edits. Good stuff

@CrniWuk

Жыл бұрын

I honestly believe if Tolkien actually wrote the story he would have made it clear to the audience from the begining who Halbrand was. And he would have made it clear if Halbrands intentions have been actually coming out of a honest desire to do good (in a sense where the end justify the means) or if he was deceiving people.

@gideonjones5712

Жыл бұрын

@@jhmi7877 she would definitely have to warm up to him. Everyone else would require some improvements (actual personalities, real charisma) so he would come across as really good, but only maybe too good to be true. She would need to fall for his act, and part of my wanting to make him reluctant to go is to make the audience wonder if it is just an act. That way anyone who still puts it together early (because to be honest my version only makes it more obvious if you know the lore I'm butchering) can have something to look forward to learning when his proper reveal comes. He could play that bit up when he reveals himself too. Try to tell Galadriel that he saved her in the sea out of guilt for what he had done to her, and then thank her for "saving him" and reminding him of his purpose. He could tempt her with power, with an offer for her to be there to keep him in check, rule the galaxy by my side and all that. Maybe the volcano only goes off when she refuses, and he escapes in the fallout.

@mgeldarion58

Жыл бұрын

I'd add a small note that'd make lore nerds more excited: Halbrand doesn't identify himself as Sauron, but as Tar-Mairon. "Sauron" ("Abhorrent") was a moniker, given to him by the elves, while his true name's Mairon ("Admirable"). For the viewers who wouldn't know about it, they'd initially think he, as Tar-Mairon, envisions himself as a rival to Numenor (like "oh, he named himself like Tar-Palantir and Tar-Miriel, he wants to make the empire of his own in the Southlands"), but then Galadriel points out he can't hide behind names anymore and reveals him to be Sauron. That visibly pisses him off, then she tries to strike him and as he holds her dagger, boom, the volcano erupts.

Halbrand: From the reading of the books, Sauron could be very psychologically menacing. So when he is down-playing himself, that's fine. But when he is in mortal combat under exitential threat, then we would expect him to be more fierce than shown, and truly able to induce terror just with his presence. Ie no orcs gonna be attacking him, etc... I would have similar reservations about Galadriel's strengths from the books being all but missing in this TV show.

Love the Sauron fix - looks epic. They could've also added rings being forged at the same time, so we will go between reveal, mount Doom and forgery as you've shown. There also is potential for cool visual transitions between volcano lava and molten metal when creating the rings. And Sauron should've visited the elven town earlier on, give couple advices on how to make rings (something smarter than "you know alloys?") and then move on to the South...

Wow the story told at 10:00 is so much better than any writing for this entire season

Literal Goosebumps when I saw your version of Sauron's reveal. I can't believe that people on KZread are creating better story than a 700 million show

@mikeygilmour4635

Жыл бұрын

Should it be a surprise? What was Tolkien's budget when he actually wrote his works?

Hoping you do an episode on Andor. Feels like the opposite of ROP on so many dimensions. A masterclass in storytelling within an established universe.

Dark is one of my favourite shows ever and I can't wait for 1899

Great idea for a way to make the Halbrand/Sauron reveal better. If you are going to pull off the idea of him acting the part of the reluctant king of the southlands you would also have to get rid of the line where he explains that he found the crest on a dead body. It makes no sense that Galadriel would push him as the king of the Southlands after he says this, let alone why anyone in the Southlands would follow him based on an emblem that no one has seen 300+ generations.

I love listening to your videos while in bed. There's something so soothing about your voice and the way you structure your ideas. There's always closure in them.

I love the editing of this video and it flows really well because the scenes always switch along with your commentary!

You did such an incredible job with this! Really impressed.

Damn dude. You gave me goosebumps with your narration up to the reveal of Sauron and the volcano exploding. I would have loved that.

I'm trying to think if there was any kind of "mystery box" storytelling in the LotR books. I don't feel like there is. Of course, some things are mysterious and only get revealed as the story goes on, but it's not quite the same. There's no great "twist" or revelation or trying to put the reader on the wrong foot. Or at least in my memory, and admittedly it's been a while since I read them. It seems that modern writers (especially when connected in any way to JJ Abrams) feel that the "mystery box" is the only way to write a story and it just isn't.

@pwmiles56

Жыл бұрын

I was asking myself the same question. The closest might be what happened to Merry and Pippin after they are captured by the Uruk-Hai. There are two whole chapters of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli not knowing for sure they are alive. But then there are two chapters of Merry and Pippin so we know exactly what has happened. But we are still interested in Aragorn piecing together the clues (in The White Rider).

@rosysulla

Жыл бұрын

Denethor had a Palantir all along, recontextualizing his obsession desire for the ring and corruption. That info was held back for a bit, but it wasnt treated like a mystery box, I dont think.

Dark and Season 1 of Westworld had some amazing mystery boxes! Always worth a rewatch!

@tbbb8439

Жыл бұрын

Dark was good but I don't think it's a fantastic example in this case, if anything it became bogged down in 'reveal' after reveal with so much time devoted to complexity and the next step in the time travel mystery that the actual storytelling itself suffered. At the end I was just glad it was over not feeling sufficiently rewarded with the solution to the mysteries which the first season built really well.

As someone who is 90% sure I've heard of this Rings of Power thing once before, let me skip the fanwank and thank you for laying out how to set up and pay off a good mystery.

Your ending with the mount erupting and Galadriel in full shock felt epic ✌️ (it would've been his ultimate motive from the beginning). Of all the bad issues, that one scene would have kept audiences wanting for more 🙌.

A mystery is only as good as it’s narrative implications. Before and after it’s solved.

Your idea of the reveal of sauron was amazing. I was so invested that I almost forgot that this was a youtube video. I was at the edge of my seat.

I love this vid on Mystery Boxes! The part where you talk about Sauron revealing who he is in a random garden did make me think a little of one of the best Mystery Box hidden identity reveals I've seen in Season 2 of Attack on Titan. It is also revealed in a very casual way, so casual you almost miss it. But in that case it works, especially because soon after the casual reveal, crazy plot intense action stuff happens. A guy doesn't toss a character into a pond and run away off screen.

Some time ago, I guested on two different streams talking about mystery writing in ‘Star Wars’ (both the sequel trilogy and the prequel trilogy). The question I ended up with was: what exactly is a mystery, versus a mystery box? Mystery tends to take two different forms. Form 1 (the more normal one): The protagonists need to unravel the mystery in order to prevent some sort of consequence (the killer getting away, the conspiracy being successfully implemented etc). We the audience follow and figure things out along with the characters and they are able to solve the mystery in time to prevent the consequence. - Form 2 (the less normal one, usually reserved for more tragic stories): The protagonists need to unravel the mystery in order to prevent some sort of consequence (the killer getting away, the conspiracy being successfully implemented etc). The difference here is that the audience learns the answer before the characters do. The characters, held back by some fatal flaw that prevented them from taking the proper action, either don’t find the answer, or they find out too late. This is where the prequel trilogy really dropped the ball, as the answer to crucial mysteries were left out of the story completely, with neither the audience nor the characters finding out. The point I’m trying to get at is that mystery is a genre, but more broadly it is a way to tell a story. It still adheres to the basic idea of narrative progression, rising and falling action, and escalating tension, through the process of finding the answer. A mystery box is an excuse to postpone telling the story for as long as possible. It creates an obvious answer to a simple question, and relies entirely on people continuing to watch for the answer. As a result, the answer is simultaneously obvious (because nothing else really makes sense) and poorly built up. To put it another way, there is no mystery box, there is only the bait box.

Having not seen the show, your rewrite of what should have happened made so much sense and seems so organic, I can't imagine what they actually did in the show.

@PaoloNovaro

Жыл бұрын

whatever you can imagine, it's worse

Brilliant, as usual. And you managed to sum this disaster up in less than half the time it takes most of the rest of them. Kudos!

Please do a review of Andor - The power of Dialogue No space battles, no Jedi, and no lightsabers.

@landryprichard6778

Жыл бұрын

Love Andor. Too bad it might get cancelled. 💔

@bryanandersonmt

Жыл бұрын

@@landryprichard6778 no it won't, they already have all the seasons confirmed (2 i think?) to get up to Rogue one lol

Definitely agree about the mystery box stuff. It's a tired trope and felt really forced with Gandalf and Sauron. I really liked your alternative exploration of Gandalf's story arc too. Especially when you consider that in the original source material, we know that Gandalf was reluctant to come to Middle Earth as a wizard because he feared Sauron. Him experiencing consequences for coming with the Harfoots could have been a nice moment for him. I personally am becoming more and more of a fan of the tension that comes from sharing information with the audience that the characters don't know, which could have been a more satisfying line of plot if we knew the truth the whole time and the characters didn't. Severance has several good examples of this type of tension. I still ended up liking Rings of Power much more than I thought I would - but I can be quite forgiving of Middle Earth related content.

@torennelson5657

Жыл бұрын

Wow. You're dead on about your critiques in both videos. I would add that Galadriel and Halbrand are played by weak acting. Maybe even Gandalf is weak, compared to the movies. This whole show stinks. Its really bad. And you are just very diplomatic and encouraging, which is refreshing to see because I want the show to be amazing! They need to hire you for editing! Seriously.

I think another issue was putting characters in peril, who we know obviously survive. It carries no emotional weight. I'm looking at you Isildur and Elendil.

@dbrooke3629

Жыл бұрын

This is my issue with most prequels. The only damage that's acceptable is mental and emotional

Love the videos man , really fallen in love with your content keep it up ❤

Your version is so much more compelling! Great video!

I only refused to believe the Stranger was Gandalf because of the time period, the Istari are believed to have arrived in the beginning of the Third Age not this early in the Second Age, but aside from that... Yeah it was pretty obvious 🤣 And then "Halbrand"... The moment he didn't want to leave Numenor was pretty much obvious, but if you have benefit of the doubt, then the moment he told celebrimbor "it was a gift" haha it was the final nail in the coffin

@StarryEyed0590

Жыл бұрын

If he was any of the other Istari, it wouldn't matter so much (I was rooting hard for him to be one of the blue), but we know pretty much exactly when and how Gandalf came to ME, and it was absolutely nothing like this.

@nickdentoom1173

Жыл бұрын

The absolute twist would have been if the Stranger was Tom Bombadil.

Amazing how you can reimagine the story without changing too much of what was presented. I still don't understand why they rushed the making of the rings in just 1 episode. This plot alone should take a whole season I think. They should also have pointed out that Sauron in this period could shapeshift, what made Galadriel's mission way harder. Sadly, this season was designed to show unnecessary shocking revelations, such as Mordor scene, balrog scene, 'Gandalf' scene and halbrand/sauron scene. The focus was not tell a good story, but to build these moments. For me, Mordor creation should have been season finale, with a small hint by Celebrimbor to the need of creating rings to resist evil powers. This way we would have the stage prepared to a second season in which Sauron (with a different disguise, after revealing himself to Galadriel as the video describes) could influence Celebrimbor and forge the one ring in the now active mount doom.

The best mystery box I experienced was in 'The Expanse'. The identity of that traitor in that one scene truly made me jump out of my seat.

@ro4eva

Жыл бұрын

Aw man, I wish they would adapt the remaining books into Seasons 7, 8, and 9. 'The Expanse' is, without a doubt, my favorite Sci-Fi TV show. It's a gem.

Really solid analysis. Well done! And your story proposals would have improved the impact of the backend of this season significantly.

Giving Sauron something that looks like a plan, instead of coincidences after coincidence, would definitely be a improvements lol.

The funny thing about your issue with Sauron not visiting the forge is that it actually isn't an issue at all if you simply look to the lore. Sauron is infamous for taking different forms, many of which are very beautiful on the outside. He could simply visit the forge at the start of a later season and then have him also appear in his "normal" form in Mordor in what we later come to know as an earlier point in time. The season could then end with Mordor Sauron deciding upon the making the rings as his solution to taking over the world, and then switch to Eregion Sauron forging the the rings with Celebrimbor.

Gotta love the fact that every single video, in which they rewrite little aspects of ROP, i've watched so far. All of them have so much better stories, plots and dialogue than 1Bi dollar budget made. Great video analysis and review

Makes you wonder how much possibilities there might have been for the story if they brought in talented writers.

I'm still hoping that "Gandalf" is really Saruman. It'd be an interesting switch, as Sau was good for a long time, before Sauron swayed him. But I'm thinking RoP isn't interested in anything but the obvious. Ah well.

@FilmscoreMetaler

Жыл бұрын

It would be a stupid switch. The stranger IS going to be Gandalf, that's an established fact. Also LotR has never been about big plot twists.

For most other shows I wouldnt be that harsh with a poor reveal but Sauron has to be the great trickster (but they were all of them deceived), and this felt too on the nose. I actually liked the dream sequence and with your rewrite it would tie in nicely but (if not planned for later seasons) Sauron has a lot of irons in the fire, so that the hunt for them, or their actions should feel more like a crime story or thriller, i think. And in that outmanoeuvring Sauron they do exactly what he wants. It should be a mystery box, I just worry they will retcon his plans in later seasons with flashbacks and moments that show his actual deceptions.

LSOO is putting in his bid to be an adaptive writer for some future project! His imaginations on plot alternatives are very engaging. For this series, I wonder how much copy right prohibited creative freedom. Would some of the changes suggested in this video cause copy right issues? Maybe, which would be incredibly frustrating. It’s the risk Amazon took, though. Love your videos!

Your alternate version of the eruption was great. When people try to take defense of RoP they often say "people will never be satisfied" and yes that's true that's impossible to satisfy _everyone_. But almost every alternate version of RoP I've seen on KZread was better than the original, meaning that something really went wrong. Concerning the fact that there would be no reason for Halbrand/Sauron to be crafting rings in this season, I don't see the problem at all. Apart from the fact that in the lore Sauron crafted the Men and Dwarfs rings with Celebrimbor while being undercover BEFORE both of them crafting the One ring and the Elven rings in secret each on their own, it was stupid to reveal Sauron before most of the rings are crafted. The idea that Sauron can change its appearance makes a great potential for future "mystery boxes", like, in season 2 Sauron could have infiltrated the elven kingdom by taking the appearance of an elf _after_ the eruption of the Oroduin. It's like in Harry Potter, we do know from HP2 that people can change appearance of other humans using polyjuice, we even do know that they also can take the appearance of other animals being animagi (HP3), but it's still possible to create a "mystery box" in HP4 with Crouch/Mad-Eye.

@RodrickMarsMoon

10 ай бұрын

Aaand the movie Goblet of Fire ruined the mystery reveal by showing Barto Jr. alive since the beginning. Like, imagine if we never see the face of the man who was in the house with Voldemort and Pettigrew and the one who conjured the dark mark and the only info we had about Barto Jr. is Dumbledore telling Harry that he died in Azkaban... And then, boom, when Mad-Eyed is revealed as Barto Jr. in disguise, we'd be shown longer sequences of previous scenes on the same vibe as all Saw movies reveals in the end of all nine movies, but showing his face in the Riddle House and the one who conjured the mark. Then him taking Karkaroff's hair and obliviating him before he took his appearance to put Harry's "nameintheGobletofFire", killing Judge Crouch and casting the Imperius Curse on Viktor Krum... And then the rest of the scene would play normally, with him showing his tattoo and saying "my mom believed in me until the end, even switched places with me in Azkaban and died as me there!" to finish explaining this before the "Voldemort's back!" line. Just imagine that...!

If this helps, I know from certain individuals who have connections to the production of ROP that it was a knightmare behind the scenes. people were fired left and right, writers couldn't agree what story they wanted to tell, the show was originally about a young Aragorn, some wanted to adapt the Silmarillion but didn't have the adaption rights to the book, the Tolkien estate giving them a long list of things they could and couldn't do on the show such as referencing the movies (even though the showrunners wanted to connect ROP to the movies) writers being fired because they wanted to insert more woke elemets into the show and was met with disapproval, a Tolkien scholar being fired, Jeff Bezos allegedly visiting the set and was furious on what he saw and demanded changes to be made in the middle of shooting. All in all, this show was produced with everyone's hands tied behind their backs, not really knowing what they wanted to do and the clock was ticking, and the best they could come up with was fan fiction.

@sonkeschmidt2027

Жыл бұрын

They did relatively well considering that....

@bigwezz

Жыл бұрын

@@sonkeschmidt2027 I wouldn't go that far .. 😅

@charlie.on.youtube

Жыл бұрын

And compare all this to PJ’s original films. It reminds me of Robocop vs Robocop 2. In the first film, he had a small number of directives and that worked. In the second, he had hundreds of directives, clearly designed by a large committee, and he absolutely could no longer function. “Too many cooks spoil the soup.”

I always enjoy your videos

props for using Tony Anderson's Oyarsa in the background!

Great analysis. Really appreciate you going through this dumpster fire!

This is exactly what happened to Wheel of Time as well, which was also produced by amazon. They made the whole first season into a mysterbox, so instead of getting to know the most important character and his thought about the horrible thing that he is realizing we only get some wierd geussing game where everyone is eaqually important to not spoil the "surprise"

@tjenadonn6158

Жыл бұрын

What happens when you care more about making "good TV" than you do about telling s good story well in a way that actually fits it.

@StarryEyed0590

Жыл бұрын

That was SUCH a bizarre choice, because who the Dragon is isn't remotely a mystery in WoT. It's abundantly clear from just the first book - so they HAD to know a large percentage of their audience was already going to know, or have it spoiled for them.

@nickdentoom1173

Жыл бұрын

Another issue with Wheel of Time is that they made one ABSOLUTELY vital character in the books an mere side character in the show (Yes... i am talking about Thom Merrilin, since he was arguably more vital to the Wheel than Moiraine was).

You've done right by making this video. Thank you!

Hey @storiesofold - another well put-together video - really enjoy your channel. Somehow and for some unknown reason you did not nail this one. No one is perfect, but your terminology and reasoning are good. Not sure: A classic case of the thinker's blindspot?

Yeah if they gave Helbrand more characteristics and depth, it would have helped. He was, in my opinion, very boring. Twist would have hit harder then. Without much of a character, the twist of who he is, was a weak one. Love your re-edits btw. They're so great!!!!

Like many other video essays I've watched, your proposed changes make the story so much better ! Small changes, big impact on the characters' development, pacing of the story, and just plain logic of action/reaction. I don't understand how the series was such a flop. Someone, somewhere along the production steps should have noticed the script was bad and made some changes. Thanks for your input, I greatly appreciated your ideas !

I think this is the most times that I've heard the word, "mystery box," in the timeframe of roughly 25 minutes. Another great video, though!! ❤️

The best mystery box to me was how the new battlestar galactica by RDM handled the Cylon agents. We knew a few of them, but not all, and so new reveals always came unexpected.

I don't think the Stranger is an example of a mystery box. I didn't find myself speculating about who he was beyond the wider speculation about who Sauron was and I quickly dismissed the Stranger from contention due to his actions. I simply enjoyed his story as it was presented to us. Halbrand is a different matter, I found his reveal in episode 8 worked really well within the episode but over the whole season there are too many contradictions, unexplained plot points and scenes which now feel like they were only included to make us question if he was Sauron.

The "Stranger that Fell From the Sky" trope was literally lifted directly from the storyline of Diablo III.

@mord0

Жыл бұрын

Yup… shameless

one would have to contrive a reason for Celebrimbor to travel to Numenor to learn about stonework for a forge or something, where he could cross paths with Halbrand. That way you could culminate that arc with the Sauron reveal, and Galadriel heads to celebrimbor to make the rings she doesn't know Halbrand had a hand in

Actually, it DID work. Charlie Vickers did his homework and brought a pretty solid understanding of what Tolkien wrote about Sauron and his motivations to the table. And his acting really sold it. I say all this as somebody who was pretty convinced Halbrand wasn't Sauron right until the moment he said to Celebrimbor "Call it a gift." Was it perfect? No; it probably would have helped if the season had been 10 episodes rather than 8, that way the reveal could have had time to marinate and wouldn't have competed with the reveal of the Stranger being an Istar. But it worked a lot better than it probably should.

Could you make a video on why the series ANDOR works so well narratively ?

Such a great video! I thoroughly enjoyed it. On the Sauron/Galadriel storyline, I have something to add. The story could also focus on how Sauron has manipulated Galadriel to believe it is necessary to ‘control people by giving them a solution to their worst fear’. In this way, Sauron’s real character is gradually revealed. Meanwhile, Galadriel struggles with the consequences of her own choices.

Exactly what I needed to open KZread and find, thank you

Dude that rearrangement was goosebumps!

I love that your rewrite of the Harfoot story would be more in line with Tolkien's philosophy. It's about discernment - something deep in Catholicism (particularly in Ignatian spirituality) - and the discovery of your purpose rather than forging your own, which is one of the key struggles for all characters in LOTR. Rings of Power as a whole is just Lord of the Rings in name and the visuals, but it doesn't have the essence and the philosophy behind it.

@meischix

Жыл бұрын

And the Sauron rewrite is spot on as well. I love it. He wants to shape the world into what he wants. Not discerning his purpose, but defining it for himself. That definition of evil is very Catholic, and thus very Tolkien.

If Galadriel (in ROP) was revealed to be Sauron trying to forge the rings would make more sense to me. What if the real Galadriel was still with her husband, Celeborn on another adventure? It would leave an opening for Sauron to pose as her. And, ROP's Galadriel's dislikable personality (ex. leaving the men under her command to die, and leaving people getting attacked in the sea to save herself) would make more sense.

@verindictus3639

Жыл бұрын

Yes, "Galadriel" is far more evil in this show than Sauron has been!

🙋‍♂ WOW! Your 'fix' was awesome. Excellent work. 👌

Tbh, the show didn't keep me engaged enough to realise Galadriel was even stuck on a raft.

What I don't like about this show's Sauron is that he feels as he is just a modern human being... he is a demigod a fallen angel... We should have looked at Sauton mostly from a far, with him having very little dialogue... And yes they should have made it so that we know who is Sauron from the start(I mean we knew, but they thought we won't guess it). He should be intimidating, evil, cunning, quiet, and tall from the start... and the true mistery box should have been Anatar... and by knowing some of the traits of Sauron we should see more and more of him in Anatar... Tolkien gave them a perfect story to develope...to think they missed the oportunity for the battle of Eregion...and the last stand of Celebrimbor, and the horror that Sauron inflicts to him and his kingdom after he defeats it... he was carrying his dead body on a pike like a war banner...that's Sauron, an evil being that has no way back, not some gray character that Galadriel could save... it looks like the writers and producers are mentaly chalanged...

I thoroughly enjoy these critical examinations.

I like your version much mo betta! I think they could've gotten around not having Halbrand go to Lindon at that time because he had already gone there and corrupted Celebrimbor before the start of the show. Maybe they have a flashback, and that shows why Cele is so ambitious and why they are so afraid.

Both of your retellings are so good. It makes me sad about what could have been...

The numerous elaborate critiques of TRoP exhibit vastly greater degrees of application of lore and cinematic craft than the actual creators of the show itself! If you'd like to see some specific scenes which exemplify a genuinely lofty fantasy atmosphere such as one might expect of Tolkien, check out *The Northman.*