Another guy named Steve wow

@stevelehto

3 жыл бұрын

I was as shocked as you were!

@ltsiver

3 жыл бұрын

That's NEVER happened!

@stevef68

3 жыл бұрын

What a shock!

@werefrogofassyria6609

3 жыл бұрын

Was it "Steve" or "Stephe"?

@gravityskeptic8697

3 жыл бұрын

People should stop doing this. It's potentially very frustrating.

In a court case I was involved in, I pointed out that my employer wanted to calculate my wages one of two ways. I also pointed out that if he does one *OR* the other, it makes negligible difference, and either is reasonable. The problem arises when he wants to pick and choose which calculation method applies to which situation which would result in a steep decrease in amount owed. The judge said that is utter nonsense, the employer needs to pick one, and I got a fat judgement. I'd comfortably assume a judge would do the same here. Tesla can pick one or the other as a policy, but can't pick and choose as it pleases them. I'd imagine a particularly onery judge may even give the consumer the pick to punish Tesla for a clearly unreasonable policy.

Tesla’s “Heads I win, tales you lose” valuation is pretty outrageous. From a financial perspective, buying a car with Bitcoin seems a lot like buying with any other non-cash asset. There is another non-cash asset used to make partial payment for cars, that is a trade-in. A trade-in gets valued at the time of the transaction. If the price of used cars goes up or down later, it doesn’t affect the purchase price. And a US$ value of the purchase has to be established for taxes, fees, insurance, anyway. Maybe too simplistic, but it seems logical to me.

@rachel1426

2 жыл бұрын

You are 100% right on this.

@michaelallen1432

11 ай бұрын

I think your right. The purchase price of the car is the purchase price. What you pay the dealer is the price of the car,minus the price they agree to pay you for things that you trade in, cars, bit coin, beaver pelts, strings of beads or whatever.

During the 1970’s my brother bought a Dodge Caravan in their first model year. The door handles didn’t work well and were being repaired constantly. Once the warranty expired, they replaced all the door handles and locks! It was lime green and we referred to it as an unripened lemon.

This would be so much easier if we could buy a Tesla with Canadian beaver pelts.

@DoubleDoubleWithOnions

Жыл бұрын

I bet hosers love Tesla's.

@BaronVonQuiply

Жыл бұрын

I bought mine in syrup, poutine, and National Igloos

I imagine that the government would insist on a USD value on the sales agreement not only for the purposes of the lemon law, but so they can establish how much tax you owe THEM

@kevinjohnson1139

3 жыл бұрын

You can't pay your taxes in Bitcoin?

@Anonarchist

3 жыл бұрын

I'm paying my taxes in Dogecoin from now on, IRS plms acepti, domt audits.

@scottmattern482

3 жыл бұрын

Solid point

@ashkebora7262

3 жыл бұрын

That, and the US has gone to war over countries thinking about not using the USD to base things in... Wonder what they'll do if the 'country' is the internet? lol

@schnoodle3

2 жыл бұрын

No, I can write a contract using whatever terms of exchange I want. When it comes time to report taxes then it gets figured out in USD.

I've only seen a few incidents in the 7 years I've been dealing with bitcoin where someone only used bitcoin. Generally speaking the purchase price may be in bitcoin but that price is determined by some fiat currency exchange rate. Meaning they don't usually just say 1.2btc or 0.8btc, but instead say something like "$50k usd worth of bitcoin". In that case it seems to me like bitcoin is simply a payment method and not a currency, like a check/cashiers check, where the buyer and seller are exchanging the fiat value of the bitcoin. I'm not sure if that really makes sense or not but people are not usually buying an item with bitcoin in the way that we buy things with fiat currency. As a business I would have written in a clause that specifically said bitcoin is being exchanged for fiat and in the event that a refund is needed fiat will be returned. Basically I would say that accepting bitcoin was simply a convenience added to help make purchasing a little easier for nerds who have a big stash of bitcoin.

@sammiller6631

3 жыл бұрын

Isn't Bitcoin a fiat currency too?

@crypticnomad

3 жыл бұрын

@@sammiller6631 it depends on how you define fiat currency. If you combine the words fiat and currency independently then sure it is a fiat currency. Fiat is something that only has value because we agree it does and a currency is a fungible medium of exchange. However the combination "fiat currency" is something different and means a currency created by a sovereign nation or some other centralized entity and they are almost always inflationary whereas most cryptocurrencies have a period of inflation and then production stops.

@notpoliticallycorrect4774

3 жыл бұрын

Bitcoin trades like a commodity, not like currency.

@sammiller6631

3 жыл бұрын

@@notpoliticallycorrect4774 If Bitcoin trades like a commodity, does that mean someone can corner the mining pool and manipulate the market like other commodities?

@crypticnomad

3 жыл бұрын

@@M167A1 There are big difference between fiat currencies and cryptocurrencies. The trust in a fiat currency is approximately equal to the trust in the authority governing the currency whereas the trust in a cryptocurrency is basically based on trust in math and computer code. I don't know about you but I trust math a lot more than I trust selfish people with personal agendas. Also, it is entirely too late to ban bitcoin. If they were going to do it they needed to do it within the first couple years. Now it is just to big for them to ban like that and I'm sure various intelligence agencies are using it to move funds around for clandestine operations. I say it is far more likely that we see a watered down version of a cryptocurrency with centralized minting that replaces the dollar than we see the US gov banning bitcoin. Banning bitcoin would actually hurt the US a great deal since it would lose all of the fintech innovation coming out around it. I'd say the people who should really be concerned about cryptocurrencies are the people who are heavily invested in consumerism. If you have a currency that has virtually infinite supply and one that has a finite supply, then the one with the finite supply should be worth more units of the infinite currency over time. Assuming the finite currency is useful in some way. Deflationary currencies like that could be the death of consumerism. I think it will be good for our species but bad for the way the vast majority of us currently live our lives

I pay for all my cars in gold pressed latinum, the defacto currency of the quadrant, in fact, I don't know of anyone using Federation credits anymore.

@JackBWatkins

3 жыл бұрын

I prefer Quatloos. Widely accepted in posh restaurants and back allies throughout the Milky Way.

@andrewgates9333

2 жыл бұрын

Well..of course. The federation is quasi socialist anyway. They need to make up their minds. Go with the latinum. Can they replicate gold in those machines too?

@marcellachine5718

2 жыл бұрын

How about root beer and slugo cola?

@Locutus

2 жыл бұрын

@@marcellachine5718 Or self sealing stembolts?

@angrydragonslayer

Жыл бұрын

I dont speak latin

When Detroit gives you lemons, make a call to Steve Lehto.

@gmoops8986

3 жыл бұрын

I'll bet that Steve won't make lemonade.

@samjordan8800

3 жыл бұрын

But Tesla is made in California....

@robertewalt7789

2 жыл бұрын

Sam Jordan, the hypothetical is that the purchase of the Tesla is in Michigan.

Steve, you should also do a video/story about Tesla recently double charged customers for their new Tesla and then dragging their feet on issuing refunds for the duplicate charge.

@walterwhite2270

3 жыл бұрын

@ARGAMAWOO...find a good reputable person who did the story...not yahoo...but maybe cnn...msnbc..ny times...etc and sent it to him via his email address.....

@toddrf

3 жыл бұрын

@@walterwhite2270 "good reputable person" "maybe cnn...msnbc..ny times". You're adorable.

@laurencerilling5873

2 жыл бұрын

@@walterwhite2270 I don't believe you suggested them as good or reputable. autocorrect?

IRS taxes crypto profit/loss transactions based on the dollar value of the transaction at the time it occurred. Just sayin'.

@matthewhelton1725

3 жыл бұрын

A fact that Tesla wants you to forget.

@pulynanyalikibitz1301

3 жыл бұрын

I was gonna say, that doesn't sound like it should pass antitrust laws.

@pulynanyalikibitz1301

3 жыл бұрын

Why can't it be treated as though it were a foreign currency? People in Japan used to buy cars from my grandfather all the time and have them shipped. They would send him checks in ¥ and if the required a refund, he sent them $.

@Jezze2

3 жыл бұрын

@@pulynanyalikibitz1301 That is what most crypto advocates would like, and it is treated as currency in some countries, but in the U.S., because no legal position has been taken, the IRS has decided to handle it as "property." Imagine trading a plot of land or a painting for a car...

@Jezze2

3 жыл бұрын

@@M167A1 It depends on the specific crypto involved. Some are tied to the value of a company or a commodity (securities) others are pure currency (e.g. Bitcoin) and are nothing more or less than any other currency.

I love you Steve! Not in a creepy way, In like, It's good too hear a voice of reason in crazy times. Thanks for some levity!

Wait, there is three people in the world named Steve now? Amazing!

@BeerPatio

3 жыл бұрын

At least 5 now that I know of.

@bubbatron4

3 жыл бұрын

Whoa, wait! what? Huh?

@johnjacobjinglehimerschmid3555

3 жыл бұрын

@@bubbatron4 I know this guy's a Stephen .... just a pretender!

@bubbatron4

3 жыл бұрын

@@johnjacobjinglehimerschmid3555 Wait!! What!?!? He must be stopped!!!

@JeanPierreWhite

Ай бұрын

There ARE three people not there IS three people. Puhleeez ;-)

I buy my cousin's house for 1 gold bar. 20 years later I sell the same house back to my cousin for that exact same gold bar. The IRS will say have a $300,000 capital gain.

@bplotts1

3 жыл бұрын

Yep and all just because the value of the dollar has gone down due to the massive amount of printing the fed does

@dominicklittle9828

3 жыл бұрын

I feel like the fed is just keeping the gold for themselves and giving us fake ass oil money

@ronchappel4812

3 жыл бұрын

Well... they're actually right.The value of the house increased.It's not their fault you gave it away so cheap

@johnjdumas

3 жыл бұрын

@@ronchappel4812 No, it is the value of money that has decreased. The house is worth approximately the same amount of man-hours or goods or practically anything but the continuing devaluation of the currency.

@stevek8829

3 жыл бұрын

Fortunately for you most or all of that, depending on marital status, is tax exempt. The price inflation on long term property is a reason long-term capital gains were taxed less.

I thought the law citation was going to be sub L....L for Lehto! Great video Steve.

What if I pay for the car with PEZ, and the price of PEZ skyrockets due something completely unexpected happening, like a cargo ship getting stuck in the Suez canal, I know that sounds outlandish, but it could happen...

@mwduck

3 жыл бұрын

No way.

@jupitercyclops6521

3 жыл бұрын

Depends on the purchase price of the pez on the date of purchase. The pez should never be going through the suez canal. Aren't they Heche in mehico? Hahaha ! Idk. The kids use to sell pez at the border. Now there is no tourism to sell pez to. The kids make much more money as lookouts for the cartels.

@dsloop3907

3 жыл бұрын

@@jupitercyclops6521 And the PEZ are more valued now because they are harder to get. Gold standard vs PEZ standard.

@mwduck

3 жыл бұрын

@@jupitercyclops6521 Reminds me of a Nichole Brown Simpson joke, which decorum prevents me from sharing here.

@jupitercyclops6521

3 жыл бұрын

@@mwduck Damn decorum!

That's great Steve. Glad I was able to hear the opinion on how the state of MI would deal with it, and it's reasonable that most states would.

@billy-go9kx

3 жыл бұрын

One must remember that Michigan is one fucked up place to fight the big three. They own the state.

Steve: "I'm an attorney in Michigan." Sky: blue Water: wet

@mikesmith-uc4gx

3 жыл бұрын

Trees: Green Clouds: White

@glocke380

3 жыл бұрын

But in Washington state the sky is wet, and Steve isn't a lawyer here so....

@lnsflare1

3 жыл бұрын

If I understand this, all Steve's in Michigan are attorneys.

@TheSiriusEnigma

3 жыл бұрын

But, but... what about dry ice? Water not wet!

@lnsflare1

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheSiriusEnigma Dry Ice is CO2, not H20, therefore not water.

Same in Texas, Form 130-U clearly states $ as the currency for title and registration and payment of taxes. There is no bitcoin form available from the state. 💵💵

“Comport”. There’s my word of the day. Thank you!

Unfortunately, the Automotive Right to Repair act (this is the one that, among other things, put that diagnostic port under your dashboard) has a loophole that removes the protections of this law from ELECTRIC vehicles.

@GFlCh

3 жыл бұрын

Assuming that's true, wouldn't that only affect the Federal Lemon Law? I'd expect that all, or nearly all states would NOT have that loophole in their state lemon laws.

@JeanPierreWhite

Ай бұрын

You are comparing lemons to oranges. One law can't cancel the other.

@evensgrey

Ай бұрын

@@JeanPierreWhite Tell that to the National Highway Traffic Administration, who say otherwise.

@JeanPierreWhite

Ай бұрын

What diagnostic port are you talking about? The OBDII Port?

@evensgrey

Ай бұрын

@@JeanPierreWhite Yes. You might think it's there for things like smog checks, and while it does do that, it does far more than emissions control confirmation would require.

I always enjoy your videos. Very interesting. Thanks

would assume you be correct in conversion rate for that day of transaction

This is off topic but I saw the video of you driving the Turbine Car in front of the Chrysler Meseum.

This can’t be a new problem, I’m sure people have bartered for cars before. In fact I’m pretty sure a computer reseller I used to work for bartered for a couple of vans one time. They must have had to translate that to a US dollar value for tax purposes. I’m sure the same would hold true for new car registration paperwork.

@calculator1841

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, all bartering must be valued and Form 420 filed. Look it up!

this has been going on for years the standard of the "coin of the realm" you could buy a car in euro's and it would have to be translated into the "coin of the realm" bit coin would be legally defined as a foreign currency by most judges

@laurencerilling5873

2 жыл бұрын

Bcoin is not currency

Does Michigan allow purchase of Tesla's in their state now? Only a couple of months ago, my friend in Ann Arbor had to drive down to Ohio to buy his Tesla. Would the Lemon Law then be governed by Ohio law?

I've mentioned this example before. In Ontario all the auto dealerships, in one form or another, have a clause on new vehicle sales saying the dealership and manufacturer are not responsible for expenses and/or loses the buyer incurs when a warrantied failure takes place. Put simply, if you lose money (lost income, missed cruise ship, forced to stay in motel, etc.), that is the buyers problem. However, even though that is in the sales agreement that the buyer has signed, it has no legal bearing under Ontario law. As in Michigan (and probably every other part of the US and Canada) the law supersedes all contracts and agreements.

Steve I live in Michigan love your content. I was wondering if you know the law on bike locks that spray people with a chemical like pepper spray when they try to get it off? My friend got a skunk lock and if u try to cut it off it sprays chemicals at high PSI at the person I just wanted to Know if it's legal

@jayoballes3547

3 жыл бұрын

Lockpicking Lawyer actually picked it and gave a provisional warning.

@kamX-rz4uy

3 жыл бұрын

There's a concept of having clean hands when bringing a lawsuit. If something bad happens to you while breaking the law, like ending up smelling like a skunk, a court will likely not be sympathetic. However, it is illegal to set dangerous booby traps and a person can be found liable if they knew or should have known that there was a danger to others.

@alanmcentee9457

2 жыл бұрын

Sure they are legal. The problem is in the tort, or damage, it may cause. If it sprayed someone in the eye and caused permanent damage, you might be on the hook for paying a lot of money. In the early 1960s a man rigged a shotgun to go off if someone broke into an old house on his property. Sure enough someone broke into the house and was severely wounded. The Supreme Court held that because the injury was deliberate it was a crime. The burglars had posed no threat to the owner. However, if the injury is incidental, it would be a lot harder to prove there is an intent to injure.

I assume that the price in BTC is determined at the time of sale based on the conversion rate to USD. I also have a strange feeling that they advertise the sale price of the cars in USD in normal commerce. Likely the amount returned by the court would be determined in USD since that is the typical unit of monetary transfer for these sort of transactions.

Given the lobbying power exerted, I suspect they will propose law changes to update state law in the era of crypto, and subtle changes that let them choose may get slipped in.

Not sure about bitcoin but in my dealership days Canadian customers were common and needed to convert the maple leaf to usd. I'm from New York btw.

I'm glad I watched this episode, I thought it was the reverse. I that the buyer could choice cash or the amount of bitcoin. I need to read those stories a little closer.

Steve will gladly take the case if this happens. He will only accept payment in dollars.

@BaronVonQuiply

Жыл бұрын

My DolleR app and coin has a few things to say about this.

In my state the sales tax and lemon law are both based on US dollars. I can't imagine there is any other way to do either.

Perhaps Tesla has bit off more than they can chew. I'll go get my coat now.

@Bob-Lob-Law

3 жыл бұрын

I'll get the door for you

In California it’s the purchase price Civ. Code § 1793.2(d).

When i was younger i heard someone get called by my name and said “hey thats my name!” Lol

I'd be curious in Michigan for example, have you ever heard of car dealerships accepting Canadian Dollars for people doing cross boarder shopping? I'd imagine that would be a similar case (paying in a currency other then USD) and wonder how it would be handled there.

@stevelehto

3 жыл бұрын

It would be converted to US dollars. That's all.

Seems like you refund the customer in current bitcoin equivalent in $$ the same as when the car was purchased. Seems like a common sense way to calculate the refund.

@pansepot1490

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah. If the legal currency in the USA is the USD and prices are indicated in USD. It doesn’t matter if the seller accepts another currency of equal value to the price. Tesla could as well say “we accept euros, or yen’s”, still it’s a $$ price.

@Raxiel497

3 жыл бұрын

I agree that would be entirely reasonable if it was USD equivalent in *all* cases, but reserving the sole right to decide to refund in bitcoin if it crashes is where it crosses the line.

@MonkeyJedi99

3 жыл бұрын

Other similar equivalencies would be buying something with rare quarters and getting your refund in paper money. Or buying it with goats at $60 a head and getting a refund in cash.

@walterwhite2270

3 жыл бұрын

@@MonkeyJedi99 or parts of goats...head $5, leg $10....etc

@billy-go9kx

3 жыл бұрын

@@Raxiel497 Reserving the sole right to decide which coin is not an issue! You will get let's say $20k, it could be actual dollars or $20k worth of Bitcoin. This is not rocket science, it is simple math.

You cant pick and choose refund values right?

In the contract, do they include a dollar/bitcoin value of the trade-in car that you partially used to purchase the vehicle?

@kamX-rz4uy

3 жыл бұрын

No, everything is in dollars until you pay. Then it's pay USD or the current equivalent in bitcoin.

@sombojoe

3 жыл бұрын

@@kamX-rz4uy - So if you got a refund you would get the “current” value of the used car you gave them? What if it was crushed or if it’s suddenly a collectors item? How could you get back the current value of the used car and not its value that you agreed upon at the time of sale?

@kamX-rz4uy

3 жыл бұрын

@@sombojoe The value of the used car is in the contract and does not change. It is considered part of your payment. So let's say the car you are buying new is 50k USD including taxes and fees. The dealer gives you 10k for the trade in and you pay 40k (cash and/or loan). The car gets declared a lemon so you get back 50k USD minus mileage and condition allowances (you don't get to rack up the miles and beat the crap out of it and then expect a full reimbursement) and ignoring the effect of inflation on your money.

In this case, it pays to use a fungible form of currency.

@johncope4977

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, like Pez

My question is how do you make a purchase of good/s with non-tangible currency? Seems to me placing a goods value on my pooka I could trade it for widget.

Wow, he's an actual lawyer.

In the East the economy runs on bitcoid in the following way. You sell an item in bitcoin but the value floats throughout the day/week based on the change in bitcoid value. In a refund condition the same will apply, so that you get a refund value based on what the value is now after the bitcoin revalue is calculated.

What if they put both the bitcoin and dollar value on the form?

Im not even remotely familiar with lemon laws but I kind of expected something in the law to also be based on the advertised price of the vehicle at time of sale. Where that price is advertised in US funds and effectively creates a particular market value range regardless of a final negotiated price. Maybe you negotiated 5-10% of the price off plus maybe some incidentals like free floor mats and tank of gas but the core of its value was already dictated by the MSRP. The manufacturer would probably be selling the next years model at a nearly identical price further supporting the value of a refund. Additionally there would be other sales of the same model by other buyers in the same market to support a refund value.

5:30 Now, surely there's already applicable case law on this, on the basis of foreign currency purchases in the past?

Will any state accept Bit-coin to pay sales tax? I doubt it, so the State must have been given the sales price of the car in Dollars. So it looks like the price that was paid has already been expressed in Dollars as far as the State is concerned.

I'm speculating here but I don't think I'm going to be buying any 50k dollar cars any time soon.

Hundo, unfolded, on the right side of the first shelf of the main cabinet, in front of the WLLZ bumper sticker. 60.

@sinisterian1898

3 жыл бұрын

?

@groermaik

3 жыл бұрын

@@sinisterian1898 look at the shelf itself, in front of the WLLZ sticker. It's back side up.

@donnavandezande3905

3 жыл бұрын

I had to pause the video to take a closer look.

@yadayada752

3 жыл бұрын

2nd 🤩🥈✔🎉

@ronblack7870

3 жыл бұрын

wow you have great eyes. looks just like the shelf

wouldn't bit coin be like bartering . u sell for 4 cows and 2 goats, 2 years later you can't necessarily give back those same objects.

@richpaul6806

3 жыл бұрын

I was thinking the same thing. I imagine you would have to court to settle how much 4 cows and 2 goats is worth and argue about it for a while and finally settle on 3 pigs and 6 chickens or something. If you tried the same thing with bitcoin the judge would just google it and say bitcoin is worth x dollars.

@joshnabours9102

3 жыл бұрын

It would be more like transacting in euros while in the US or transacting in Indian rupees with a company in the UK. Basically just using a currency other than the main one for that area. It works just like any other currency, the only addition is that you have to translate the value across the 2 currencies.

@richpaul6806

3 жыл бұрын

@@joshnabours9102 kind of except in those situations the transactions are done in dollars and the seller accepts the task of converting the foreign currency. The situation here is a bitcoin being on the receipt which would be more like a chicken.

@joshnabours9102

3 жыл бұрын

@@richpaul6806 not really. X bitcoin = y dollars on a given day. It does not matter if you transact in bitcoin, euros, rupees, or dollars because the relative value is fixed at the time of purchase. When you pay for the tesla you are paying x bitcoin which is equal to a dollar amount. 3 years later you still payed the same dollar amount in bitcoin as you did on the day of the transaction. The current value of bitcoin may have risen or fallen, but the amount you payed is fixed to the value in dollars at the time of purchase regardless of what currency you pay with. At least in the US it would be. Other countries would be fixed to the main currency of that area, but the idea is the same. Equivelantly, if you trade 10 goats for a car you are not getting a full refund if they return 4 goats when you send the car back due to it being a lemon. It does not matter if the value of goats has dropped between when you bought the car and when you return it. If you were selling the car back to tesla it would be fine to get the current market rate back, but when you are returning a defective product you get the full value you paid on the day of purchase back. Tesla is using legalese and market currency conversions to try and refund you less than you paid for it. And in the first place if paying in bitcoin is bartering with chickens then paying in us dollars is bartering with chickens too. Both are currencies with no inherent value.

@richpaul6806

3 жыл бұрын

@@joshnabours9102 I'm just saying if you did have a dealer in the US that took rupees or something they would convert it to dollars in the purchase agreement. You wouldn't walk out with a form that said you paid 3 million rupees for a car where the premise of this video is that your purchase agreement would say x bitcoin on it.

This makes perfect sense. You should only get the value back you spent. I mean this sounds like common sense.

@jeffwells641

3 жыл бұрын

I'd be fine with either the USD equivalent of the purchase price (probably what actually gets sent to the state) or the number of bitcoins used, straight up. No equivocation, no "if more we use X, if less we use Y." That way Tesla eats the loss if bitcoin goes up, and takes the gain if bitcoin goes down, just like they do with USD.

@BrianFullerton

3 жыл бұрын

What does Thomas Paine have to do with this?

@meritwolf219

3 жыл бұрын

@@jeffwells641 I get why you feel that way. By and large, I do too. But there is an argument to be made that the dollar, having the entire US economy plus oil transactions across the world holding it up (and down), is much _less_ volatile than the bitcoin.

@meritwolf219

3 жыл бұрын

@@Milesco Um. You know, I think you're right. I'm sure when I _made_ this post, that it had some sort of relevance, but its brilliance escapes me now.

How would Bitcoin work with the sales tax on the car? Some states have sales tax on them.

on a buyback, is the sales tax considered?

If you bought with bitcoin so you are a bitcoin speculator anyway. Tesla say they are not converting any bitcoin (they are half billion up anyway) so they should be able to return the exact amount at no loss to either party in bitcoin. Non story.... Until we get to attempt to claim. I think Tesla are willing to risk it.

I have a question about lemon law. If you buy a car for commercial use, is it not covered? Someone told me this. So if say Enterprise buys a car to rent out and it's a lemon, they don't have any lemon law coverage?

@stevelehto

3 жыл бұрын

In most states, that is correct. They'd still have a remedy for breach of warranty because that is a different law.

Here's my opinion. If something is so complicated or legally dubious that we need to get the lawyers involved, then it's best not to do it. I'll stick with cash.

@Lady-V

Жыл бұрын

If you're buying a car and signing a contract it wouldn't hurt to get a lawyer involved (and someone else to inspect the car). Compared to the price of the car legal services to look over the contract would be a drop in the bucket.

Won't this be covered by parts of the UCC that cover foreign trade involving currency exchange? If a shipping contract (bill of Lading) specifies settlement in one of several currencies (UK Pound or US Dollar, someone's choice), so that exchange rates move between the start of the sale and the delivery, the UCC or the sales contract should specify what exchange rate has to be used. Don't remember much from BLaw 1 and 2, but that 'What is a chicken' case sticks in my head....

On the refund, do you get the taxes and any other fees back?

@kamX-rz4uy

3 жыл бұрын

Yes

What if you bought a tesla with 29.24 oz of gold. then the price of gold increases or decreases? what would happen then?

@tonysolar284

3 жыл бұрын

What ever the answer is for BTC will be the same for gold. They both fluxuate in value.

@meMiner

3 жыл бұрын

Except Tesla hasn't said they will accept gold bullion.

@pansepot1490

3 жыл бұрын

What if you buy a Tesla with a foreign currency? Or salt (from which comes salary) or sheep (from which - through the Latin pecus - comes pecuniary). In the USA prices are expressed in the legal US currency which I s the US dollar. Sellers are free to accept any alternative form of payment of equal value if they wish but it’s still the $$ price the reference point.

@tony_25or6to4

3 жыл бұрын

They wouldn't give you back gold, like Bitcoin, they'd give you back the current value in the local currency.

I imagine it would say "1 bitcoin @ exchange rate of 50,000 USD on the date of sale" or something like thst

Steve slays himself sometimes.

What if you bought the car last year with Rubles?

How would you pay sales taxes on something that costs one bitcoin?

Is there a mention of "currency" anywhere.

I guess people don't realize you don't buy with bitcoin .. bitcoin is a product not a monetary value. Bitcoin is converted into a monetary value of the country's origin. It would be the same thing if you purchased something with gold. Gold isn't "spendable" someone who accepted the gold would determine the value in his currency and say you paid that amount with gold doesn't matter if gold goes up or down ... you would just get more or less gold according to the value of gold at the current time if you had to get it refunded.

@laurencerilling5873

2 жыл бұрын

Gold has value, not "a" value.. the dollar has an always-diminishing value due to the fed

Sooo... whether payment is bitcoin, francs, pesos, or yen it will be treated as U.S. dollars.

briefly caught the tax point. Sales tax is different than income tax. A business pays sales tax different from income tax on a product sold. However profits made on cryptocurrency is taxed under commodity tax. How would that work?

The way I explain to some people is, what if you bought in Yen, we convert Yen to USD at the moment, refunds are in USD

They could have turned this into a great publicity stunt by saying it's at the buyers choice. Stating : We don't make lemons ! Maybe a bit risky , but it would definitely give the other manufacturers an acid taste in the mouth (lemon?)

@WrenchesToRiches

2 жыл бұрын

It would work great! ...if they didn't make lemons

Are there any statistics regarding how many of or what percentage of Tesla vehicles are declared lemons? That would be telling as to what the real risk might be, for those who pay with Bitcoin.

would assume the same applies if buying cars from foreign countries, as currencies differ in exchange rates continuously

I would think that the most economical solution would be if at the time of transaction, the company converts the bitcoin into real/US currency. Or if the lemon law is invoked/triggered. The Tesla store can buy back the Lemmon at a combined value of Bitcoin and US currency or in US currency alone, to the original purchaser's choice/discretion as a default option. Is that clear as mud?

It should be the purchase price in whatever currency the refund is in.

*QUESTION* Wouldn't it make the most sense for companies like Tesla to simply convert the Bitcoin to USD automatically at the time of purchase or shortly thereafter? That solves any price fluctuates and makes this issue moot (even if State law didn't already do that).

Bitcoin discussion aside, what happens to the state sales tax if the lemon is a cash buyback rather than a manufacturer replacement vehicle? Would the buyer have to pay sales tax a second time if purchasing a replacement vehicle.

@stevelehto

3 жыл бұрын

The sales tax from the first purchase is refunded to the buyer. If he/she buys a second car, they pay sales tax on that car.

From what I have seen, it is equivalent to Barter, where you pay tax on market value - which is cash payment amount listed for item. For instance if you private party trade a $ 5000 boat for a $5000 car, BOTH in the trade owe the state sales tax value of fair market value . BOTH must pay sales tax of typically $400 each. The STATE collects $800 on a trade.

@tedmoss

3 жыл бұрын

no tax on private purchases

@MrTaxiRob

2 жыл бұрын

@@tedmoss what state is that true in?

Wouldn't they return the value amount of any form of currency you pay with? If I pay 500 bitcoin which equals $1000, and the value of bitcoin goes up, there is still some number of bit coin that equals $1000, it just might be 450 as opposed to 500, but the dollar value would still be the same no?

So what happens if I trade in a car, and the value of the trade is equal to the purchase price of the vehicle. Is the "purchase price" that is on the buyer's order "One 2 year old Porsche Macan"? If I have a lemon claim, can I demand to be paid back in a used Porsche Macan?

How does an insurer handle bitcoin purchases?

Can Tesla sell cars in Michigan now? I thought the cars had to be titled in another state.

They can't have it both ways. Exchange rate set at time of purchase. Current value equivalent.

Guessing for tax and legal purposes not just car buying alot of things bought in bit coin or other crypt-currancy will end up being translated into dollars on the bills of sale

People get so hung up on bitcoin and 'the special' new currencies. Instead of bitcoin, imagine you are buying a top of the line Model S for $145k, but you work it out with Tesla that you are going to pay in gold. Current price of gold per ounce is $1,687.70, so you would be paying pretty much 86 ounces of gold for the car. As Steve said it depends on what the 'purchase price' is denoted on the bill of sale (depending on State). A year later you want to return the car and invoke the lemon law, and on the bill of sale it states 'purchase price', let's say somehow you are entitled to the full 86 ounces if the price of gold has gone up then you've mae money, if and only if you go trade it for that money. I would think most sellers would put the dollar amount purchase price. In Oregon, I was looking over ORS 646A.404 and it just says full purchase price, it doesn't appear to denote dollars. Although does mention 'cash price' when calculating the reasonable allowance. In Oregon there is no Sales Tax so might be interesting.

How would it work for paying sales tax on the item purchased? Would you have to pay 7% sales tax on 1 bit coin?

@kamX-rz4uy

3 жыл бұрын

For the sake of simplicity assume that the 1 bitcoin includes the total owed including sales tax and fees. Tesla is then responsible for forwarding along the taxes paid in USD to the government.

@laurencerilling5873

2 жыл бұрын

if that is the tax rate on that item, yes. the form of payment is immaterial

Any currency you have can also depreciate.

There are no Tesla dealers (there ARE Tesla service centers); but if you buy a NEW Tesla, you can only do this on the Tesla web site. You may perhaps pick up your Tesla at a service center, or it might be delivered to your home address. I guess the "buyer's order" would be the online transaction on the Tesla website.

@stevelehto

3 жыл бұрын

When you walk into a Tesla showroom (I've seen them but never gone into one) you can't sign any paperwork there?

@whitsend11

3 жыл бұрын

There would still have to be a Buyers Order created to send to the state for tax and registration purposes.

Do they have the concept of Purchase Power Parity in US laws? Like, I purchased a Tesla and 2 years later I found our it was a lemon and go to court. In the meantime the price of that Tesla model has skyrocket to the moon. Will they give my back the money I paid or the money I would have to pay today for the exact same model of Tesla?

Yeah I bet the state computer system is only setup for US funds and not other currency. Why would they? Also if you buy a car from Tesla that dosen't have a dealership in your state what state laws apply?

Heads I win, tails you lose is Musk's favorite game.

I'm really surprised that the conditions didn't state that the refund wouldn't be in Bitcoin or US dollars, but the purchase price equivalent in Dogecoin.

This can become a bigger issue than people think because of the volatility there is today...not just cars but anything you purchase where you are allowed to return an item. Hmmmmm wonder if it is too late for the guy that bought the pizza's for 10,000 bitcoin can get his money back......

Tesla does not have sellers in any state, they only sell online. If you go in a Tesla showroom they will advise you and assist you to do the transaction online. Bitcoin is not legal tender in the USA.

If you buy your Tesla with Bitcoin for your business how do you report that expense to the IRS on your tax return?

Im not sure i fully understand the issue.. You can buy or sell any amount of bitcoin you want, you dont have to purchase 1 full coin so its confusing to me...

If they end up offering a 25k refund because of Bitcoin tanking. Instead of sending it for a refund, sell it on the grey market as a parts Tesla. Parts Teslas have almost the same value as brand new Teslas.

This doesn't surprise me at all. Bitcoin value is based on the USD. To me, it wouldn't be any different than buying with stocks that are traded on a stock exchange. At the time of purchase that will be the basis of the stock that was used for the purchase of the merchandise. In a roundabout way that's what the IRS uses to determine earnings made for the dollar value of a stock or real estate even gambling.

So if the bit coin triples in value and a customer sues to be paid back in bit coin and wins but during the lawsuit the bit coin value drops what happens ?