I was in the US Army long enough to know that the US Army uses gold and silver for the Officer ranks that way is because that's the way the US Army does it and if they ever decide to change it, you will be notified when appropriate.

@sol2544

3 жыл бұрын

Appropriate to the army. You get a reason if you need one, or if someone is actually sentimental enough to have one. Otherwise, it just is

@WilliamSanderson-zh9dq

3 жыл бұрын

😂 CO just prints a copy of uniform and insignia regulations, hands it to you, and then stares you down 😠

@fcolli8889

2 жыл бұрын

Civilians, who pay the taxes that funds the Army, do not have to accept that answer, and, if addressed that way by an Army spokesman, might be able to have their Representative in Congress contact the Army and demand an explanation. I suspect that whoever is managing this channel is a civilian.

@barsdogukankarakoyun8798

2 жыл бұрын

and then the Army could just reply "According to DA PAM 670-1, rank insignia for grade of second lieutenant is as follows : The nonsubdued second lieutenant grade insignia is one gold-colored bar, 3/8 inch wide and 1 inch long, with a smooth surface. The bar is worn lengthwise on shirt collars, parallel to the shoulder seam on shoulder loops. For the AGSU, oxidized gold grade insignia will be worn in the same dimensions. The subdued second lieutenant grade insignia is the same as nonsubdued second lieutenant grade insignia, except the color is brown (see fig 21-35). The subdued second lieutenant grade insignia will be embroidery on a camouflage pattern background, 2 inches by 2 inches, with hook-and-loop fastener for wear on utility uniforms and ECWCS." Since there really isn't an official reason as to why these are the way they are. Someone wanted it to be that way, so it happened that way. If there was an official reasoning the person behind this channel would've known for sure.

interesting side story with the "bull ensign" in the Canadian army, at some regiments the most experienced major is put in charge of the admin/support company/squadron instead of one of the line units. Actually has a very practical reason, the officer is likely the next in line to be the CO, and since they've learned everything about the units primary function, they get a stint learning about how their supporters keep them going so that when they're CO they have experience in the larger logistical issues. As the saying goes "armatures discuss tactics but professionals discuss logistics"

@borkborkfoxxo279

3 жыл бұрын

This is common with the battalion XO position in the us army- the BnXO drives the staff for a couple years before moving into a battalion command of their own.

@hammer8771

3 жыл бұрын

So is there no formal position for unit DO in Canada? Sounds like an HQ Plt CDR in the US, but even then you would have a Batt XO over him, so he wouldn't be first in line.

@chuckhainsworth4801

3 жыл бұрын

Then I gathered from a personal reading of one Regiment's history, a particular Maj. was breveted to CO by not promoted afterward on multiple occasions (3 but recollection not fact) during the Normandy campaign. Are an indication that some other factor is involved. Pity the notion didn't occur to me at a time when I was in a state to conduct proper military field research - go on a tear with a purpose. I remember the saying in a different form: "ORs talk tactics, officers discuss logistics." But time and place. Facta non Verba.

Let us not forget the reason we use leaves to depict Majors and Lt Colonels. It comes from history, Adam and Eve in fact. We cover all our pricks with leaves.

@Delgen1951

3 жыл бұрын

You apearly never touched or seen a fig leaf, You would not want to wear it as clothing.

@swfbutler

2 жыл бұрын

As someone who wears oak leaves, that's hilarious!

@silmearendil

2 жыл бұрын

ROFL!!

That MoH soundtrack takes me back.

@apocazilla6807

3 жыл бұрын

Same

I’m a 2LT PL. My mentorship at the company comes from the PSG, but also the commander and to a lesser degree the battalion commander. I will typically confirm any advice I hear from the XO or more senior platoon leaders where possible (because there is no rank among lieutenants). Listening too much to the platoon sergeant means that you can turn into a bro-tenant, who are as bad as the brown-nosers.

@armyofshea7941

3 жыл бұрын

Hey Bork Bork, sounds like you are learning the system. Please don’t forget that rank isn’t as important as the person. (26 years in and still learning.) Personal example from my 2LT time: of the three PLTs in our Battery, I was fortunate to always be the best. This had very little to do with me, and pretty much everything to do with an exceptional PSG. Yes, we butted heads at times, but because I was willing to listen to his experience, we prospered. My other two PLs struggled. Hard. Turns out we had a dud CO and an XO that was full of himself. The other two PLs tended to listen to only the officers, and ignored the PSGs and 1SG, to the detriment of their Soldiers. Rank matters, but so does the individual wearing it. Best of luck on your journey in Leadership.

@borkborkfoxxo279

3 жыл бұрын

@@armyofshea7941 That's sage advice and being fair, I didn't represent my relationship with my PSG very well. He does mentor me, and I am very accepting of that mentorship, and I'm under no illusion about who wears the pants in this platoon. I've been lucky, however, to get an NCO who gives me the appearance of looking in charge, and other PL's have either not taken that opportunity or been steamrolled by their psg.

This is speculation from my own experiences but reason for lack of bull ensign type job in the army is just a fundamental difference of how each branch treats its officers, at least from a traditional sense. In the navy's of old specifically in the British which had a huge influence on America officer's ruled more through fear and the whip of authority. Enlisted did/do not question that officer and if done in any way the punishments where swift and severe. This being a hold over from the age of sail where ships were often isolated and officers usually being nobles or men of means who believed they needed to keep the rabble down to prevent a munity. This prevailing attitude of officers being superior in everyway and extreme discipline lends itself to the idea of a senior officer teaching other officers and not have them learn from the more experienced enlisted and therefore showing weakness. While many Army's including the British had similar attitudes during that same time period given the nature of changing land combat especially as WW1 started and the growing importance of small unit tactics and lower officer ranks needing the authority to make decisions often left Lieutenants on their own without that experienced officer near by. So they leaned more on their experienced NCO's. This coupled with the difficulty of maintaining artificial boundaries in an ever moving field environment lead to the Officer corps and NCO corps being closer with most enlisted soon following. This is especially true in the earlier US Army of the 20th century since the we did not have a aristocracy of sorts beyond richer families. This meant young officers weren't much older then the new enlisted privates and had a similar world view so artificial boundaries really broke down. In the navy each crewman must do exactly their job as and when directed to fight as one with their ship and any toe out of line cripples her ability to fight. Where almost the opposite can be true in the army where losses can sadly be absorbed and ingenuity in combat and individual action can even turn a battle (not always but sometimes).

@Jiffedup

3 жыл бұрын

Then again this is speculation and my MOS when I was in tended to have a lot more freedom then most and the enlisted to officer relationship was less formal due to it, and the CAV had plenty of other "old" traditions I had to worry about.

@k53847

3 жыл бұрын

The Army has a much more complete training course in OBC (or whatever it is these days) then the Navy. Particular true of SWOs, - the 'SWO in a box' "training", where they commissioned you, handed you a box of DVD's and told you to report to your first ship next week - was particularly egregious. You were supposed to, while working 100 hours a week, study these in your copious free time. But hey, it's not like there are huge freighters prowling around looking for incompetent ship drivers....

In the Canadian Army, the most senior lieutenant is expected to provide guidance and advice to the junior Lts and 2Lts when it comes to things like mess events/dinners, dress and deportment, and the basics of staff work. This position is known as the Senior Subaltern. A Subaltern is any Officer below the rank of captain (Officer Cadets, 2nd Lieutenants, lieutenants) and in some units, the most junior captain.

Just to mention it, there was/is a strong preference for silver rank insignia in the Prussian/German armies since the time of Frederic II.

My Grandfather was a staff officer for a naval base throughout most of WW2 and he said the Brass-Button Brigade was the common belief in his time and place. That said, he personally liked to think that Brass was an appropriate metaphor for the typical senior officer, shining like gold but a practical and useful material to build a great organization with.

My two cents on the topic, during the civil war, a song was written by the title "brass mounted army" wherein a soldier laments various grievances he has with his officers. The chorus has the lyrics "how do you like the army, The brass mounted army, The high falutin' army where eagle buttons rule?" In the song, most of the complaints are about the lavish lifestyles the officers have while the privates are left with sub-optimal conditions. My personal theory (and from a bit of experience doing civil war reenacting/chatting with others that have done more civil war reenacting than I have, is 1) that the brass buttons tend not to keep their shine too well in the field, so said higher ranking officers tend to have more polished brass. The other thing of note, is that yes, as part of the parade uniform, all soldiers had brass shoulder scales, however the state jackets on which they were worn became increasingly uncommon due largely to soldiers preferring the more comfortable and modest sack coat, thus the only ones by the later part of the war wearing such accoutrements, were officers who held more of a pencil pushing position. Again, this is only my theory. I am by no means an expert, so take it with a grain of salt.

To get the very simple fact you have to look outside USA: In countries older than the U.S. rank insignias and uniform buttons where made of brass (which has now transformed to gold) except for royal guard units, whose insignias and buttons where made from silver. Therefore silver is of higher value than gold in the military.

Back in my day as a 2LT when I got to my tank platoon in my Cav squadron, you basically learned everything you needed to know about running the platoon from your platoon sergeant. BUT! You learned everything you needed to know about being an officer from your fellow LT’s in the Cav Troop that were more senior and had been there longer (usually first lieutenants) and your C.O. (usually a captain). Back then in the 90’s, 2LTs and 1LTs were basically the same rank in the Cav squadron with 1LTs viewed as more experienced.

@CraigLumpyLemke

3 жыл бұрын

Well put, lieutenant. A good leader should gather input from everyone, regardless of their subordinate or superior rate, just as you did, LT. Everyone has a different view of the "battle ground". That leader's obligation is to get input from as many sources as possible. Then it's his responsibility to sift through the info and make a leadership decision. Leaders get other humans to do things. The topic/task/tools used are relatively unimportant. Learning to lead is not learning how to be the fastest rifle cleaner or run the obstacle course fastest. It's being someone who can motivate other people to clean their rifles fast and run the obstacle course faster. Thanks for your service, LT.

And to add more confusion to the Gold/Silver question... In the navy, if there are two similar qualification badges for enlisted and officers, then in most cases the enlisted person wears silver and the officer wears gold. Examples are divers, EOD, Fleet Marine Force service (doctors and corpsmen) pilots ( no enlisted pilots these days but when there were, they wore silver wings) surface warfare, submariners, etc...

How about the Origin and History behind Branch Colors. Example:Light Blue for Infantry, etc.

@jacobbaughman748

3 жыл бұрын

Excellent example as Infantry has not always been blue!!

Brilliant video!

In the electronics industry, Gold is more valuable and useful in critical areas such as connection pins due to the fact that Gold doesn't tarnish and has a higher conductive value.

Have to love the tiny details or potential details throughout history. It is usually not what we think initially because our prescriptive has different attachments.

@7:58 "Does the Army have an equivalent to the Navy's Bull Ensign?" We don't have a "Bull Ensign" in the Marine Corps, however: 1. First Lieutenants (O-2) -- who traditionally/ideally serve as Company Executive Officers -- are expected to mentor the incoming brand new Second Lieutenants (O-1) who traditionally/ideally serve as Platoon Commanders. 2. There's the "one bar club", whereby Warrant Officers (W-1 through W-5) and Lieutenants (O-1 and O-2) -- all of whom have a single bar for our rank insignia -- generally do not salute one another (even though a First Lieutenant outranks a Chief Warrant Officer Five). 3. Finally, most units have some sort of Lieutenants Protection Association (LPA), which can be as informal as the occasional social gathering or as formal as some sort of weekly working group to exchange tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs) and best practices.

I was in the Army for 7 years. I've never heard of senior 2LTs doing anything similar to the Bull.

@rogerhinman5427

3 жыл бұрын

I was in for 21 years and there was nothing like it that I ever encountered. I think it's a Navy thing.

@genericpersonx333

3 жыл бұрын

I am not surprised because the Army wouldn't have ever needed such a thing. People forget that in the Age of Sail, you had relatively few officers and most started their careers very young, midshipmen and ensigns usually being well under 18 when they first started. Promotion was also not consistent (Up or Out was NOT a concept at the time), so you could be an ensign for many years. Thus, you would find, especially on big ships, a big gaggle of young boys who needed to learn the ropes, literally and figuratively, not a lot of experienced officers with time to teach them, so it was logical for the oldest ensign, usually a grown man of many years service, to be the one to teach the kids how to be officers. Today, it is just a custom since we now do what the Army does which is not commission 13-year-olds to be officers and not have less than one officer for every hundred or so enlisted men.

@rogerhinman5427

3 жыл бұрын

@@genericpersonx333 Great answer! Thank you.

Certainly similar to Prussian Foot Guards given white pipings/tassels

One of the question-askers from the previous video here. Good follow-up!

The term "The Brass" existed before the 1890s in the US. During the Civil War the Confederates had a song called "The Brass Mounted Army" which poked fun at the unfortunate life of the enlisted soldier while the officers lived in "luxury". Some of the lines are as follows: Oh, how do you like the Army The brass-mounted Army, The high-falutin' Army, Where eagle buttons rule? And when we meet the ladies, we're bound to go it sly, Headquarters are the pudding, and the privates are the pie! They issue standing orders to keep us all in line, For if we had a showing, the brass would fail to shine. At every big plantation or wealthy man's yard, Just to save the property, the general puts a guard; The sentry's then instructed to let no private pass - The rich man's house and table are fixed to suit the "brass." These things, and many others, are truly hard to me, But still I'll be contented, and fight for Liberty! And when the war is over, oh what a jolly time! We'll be our own commanders and sing much sweeter rhymes. We'll see our loving sweethearts, and sometimes kiss them, too, We'll eat the finest rations, and bid old buck adieu, There'll be no generals with orders to compel, Long boots and eagle buttons, forever fare ye well! And thus we'll leave the Army, The brass-mounted Army, The high-falutin' Army, Where eagle buttons rule.

@jic1

3 жыл бұрын

That's a good find, you've all but confirmed the 'brass button' theory.

"Bull" Ensign is a modern thing, and has subtle meanings missed by many. Originally, the most senior Ensign in a given Wardroom was titled "First Lieutenant." This harkens back to when it took from 2 to 3 years to be promoted to O-2, so, the most senior O-1 could have valuable experience. It also helped ships and similar commands with a small Wardoom have enough officers for all the Department billets. (And that's getting esoteric for the discussion here.)

The term Brass Hat may have also come from the railroads. Train conductors (not engineers) and other lower level management wore black caps with brass labels on the front denoting their position.

"Silver has more letters, so is more: valuable than gold on a letter-by-letter basis; more aristocratic than gold since it has more letters; significant than gold since it has more syllables as well".

Canadian (and Commonwealth) army units have the unofficial position of “senior subaltern” or “subbie”, a senior Lt or junior Capt that fills a similar role to the Navy position described in the last question.

There is no tradition of senior O-1s mentoring new O-1s in the Army. I will say that though an O-2 out ranks an O-1, we never say sir or salute the higher or expect the latter to do so. It's an unwritten rule. Though technically they should, it's generally accepted LTs are LTs regardless of seniority.

Ancient Etruscans marked their commanders' armor with brass chasings. This is another theory of the origin of the expression, "the brass", referring to high-ranking officers.

Can you please explain soviet ranks.

You missed the other type of metal. that being lead. I remember on a certain PT boat they had a captain they called "lead bottom."

The XO is the most like the “bull ensign” the XO is usually the most SR of the LTs in the BN. They act as a second in command and also mentor the Platoon Leaders, even though the XO is the same rank as most platoon leaders 1LT. Some companies have their PLs call their XOs “sir,” even though they are both the same rank.

My experience was that a sr 2nd louie was given more of a 1st louie's responsibilities. The theory being that he/she would soon be promoted to 1st louie and would be more able to fill the enhanced job requirements.

I thought it was because the brass section is the loudest part of the band

Ok, now I want to know why the other branches adopted the Army's rank insignia.

@mardiffv.8775

3 жыл бұрын

Good question, because the armed forces of my country have their own rank insignia. The rank of Captain/ First Lieutenant Navy. Army and Military Police/ Borderguards (separate branch): 3 stars. Air Force: 2 fat bars. Navy and Marines: 2 fat bars with a loop.

@joeavent5554

2 жыл бұрын

Commonality amongst services allows quick recognition for saluting. Also, cost is a huge factor in doing things. It is cheaper to produce the same insignia for 5 services. Uniforminsignia.org displays rank insignia throughout the world from modern day to the past. All branches of service are covered when possible.

Here's a question for you: If a Major outranks a Lieutenant, why does a Lieutenant General outrank a Major General?

@EKOANTHONY

3 жыл бұрын

cause army

Brass doesn’t even feel like a word anymore

I dont know where i was expecting this video to go but it certainly wasn't Old Kingdom gold values lol

In basic training we were told that Silver was more expensive and higher than Gold

Credit to these questions. They must have really, REALLY overthought this.

Thank you for this video. Just discovered the channel and still serving field grade officer (former NCO). Someone is always going to argue and all of your facts are backed up in history.

What do you call 4 Majors and 2 LTC's having a meeting? An oak leaf Cluster F@#$. COL(R)

Please do one one on the miss information on marine corps blood stripes The common misconception being that the blood stripe was given because of the disproportionate Casualties during the battle of chapultepec among Marine NCOs and officers where more officers and non commissioned officers died at the battle but from what I heard it was more to separate junior enlisted from non commissioned officers and officers

@BattleOrder

3 жыл бұрын

That makes more sense because trouser stripes on the seam is by no means a uniquely USMC thing and it's most likely red because red is one of the USMC's distinct colours

@jarrodwarren8433

3 жыл бұрын

Thats the common sense explanation but its in the Marine Corps identity But its wrong

@Riceball01

3 жыл бұрын

@@jarrodwarren8433 It's part of our identity because it's taught that way in boot camp.

I always attributed the term “brass” to its shiny quality. Enlisted rank is dull. Officer rank is shiny. You salute shiny rank.

Frankly, I think it comes from the fact that yes, Silver outranks gold... Track with me here, At the Top, there are LESS people than at the Bottom.... So, it takes LESS BRASS, at the top.... As;p the Co;or of Polished Fine Brass, is really hard to differentiate from Gold... So in a sarcastic way, because there are Gold-Silver Ratios, so are there Silver-Gold Ratios in the Military.... But Gold holds more VALUE than Silver, whereas, The Brass, hold more value than us bottom dwellers.... It runs along the lines of the Quip, IF Generals were as valuable as Privates, they'd be called Specifics.... That style of thinking....

Why captain not 3 bar & it should.

Apart from the scarcity of gold, it's value is also derived from it stability, in that it neither oxidizes nor corrodes.

So does anyone know why the rank insignia for Major and LtCol is called "Oakleafs"? Because the clearly don´t look even close to what an oakleaf looks like. They looke more like maple or chestnut leafs. Or am I missing something in the american language that i don´t get as a non american?

@BattleOrder

3 жыл бұрын

They originally looked more like actual oak leaves and over the decades were stylized and simplified.

Some of those reasons are pretty stupid

Brass Fools Gold

I should also note that the Bull Ensign wears oversized Ensign Bars. Guess this denotes that he/she is larger than life or at least full of themselves. 😂

Fact: A vast majority of us have never seen a Warrant Officer in formation.

Does a 1st lieutenant outrank a 2nd lieutenant

I asked the question, first to comment! Thank you.

Maybe gold color is comes from brass itself because historically "Brass tactical armor" exists. There are gold armor but purposes for decorative/plating, never an actual gold for tactical purpose.

Typically the new butter bar 2nd LT learns from O2/O3 company commander and doesn’t listen to the E6/e7 platoon sergeant. There are exceptions but this is the normal. Normally 2LTs are 23 year olds fresh out of rotc or ocs and think they know better than nco with 15 years experience

@timothythomad5529

3 жыл бұрын

As usual, the reality is somewhere in the middle with various officers taking various tacks. Ideally, a new 2LT would look to several places for learning and guidance. Their PSG certainly, but also the CO and XO, and even among their peers. Hang too much on the CO, and you become a burden and look weak, but hang too much on the PSG and you risk basically turning over leadership to the PSG and not learning how to lead yourself. In practice, 2LTs do look to all of these leaders for guidance, in varying degrees. And just like there are great, mediocre and bad LTs, there are also great, mediocre and bad PSGs. A great 2LT will be aware of which PSG he has, and adjust accordingly (same for a great PSG in reverse).

From the officers at West Point, I've been told that the reason silver is higher than gold due to way the ranks work from low to high. This is similar to your "Claim 4: Siler is mined higher than gold". The theory goes that the ranks go from the lowest metal found in the earth to the stars above. Gold is found the lowest, then silver, then you get oak leaves, then you get an eagle, and then the stars. I may be completely wrong, but this theory also seems to make a lot of sense.

@BattleOrder

3 жыл бұрын

The thing about that is based on how the ranks progressed, it wasn't always "gold under silver". Before we arrived to what we have today the colour of the insignia depended on the colour of the epaulette, which depended on the branch. For example, pre-1851, infantry majors were gold and infantry lieutenant colonels were silver. But non-infantry majors were silver and infantry colonels were gold. When they all switched to the same colours in 1851, Major got gold mainly just to be different from the Lieutenant Colonel who got silver (silver contrasted better with the epaulettes so it just looked better and more distinctive). Gold-on-gold on the undress uniform did not contrast as well as was thus not as aesthetic, and Majors didn't even wear any insignia on the epaulettes of the full dress, so LtCols were more distinct there as well. Even if they did, gold-on-gold probably would not have looked great compared to silver on gold

@BattleOrder

3 жыл бұрын

But that was the only time there was any ambiguity. The choice of gold for the 2nd Lieutenant in 1917 was clearly a cost and friction saving measure that was consistent with what had been done with the major prior.

@daves8255

3 жыл бұрын

Also, throughout the 19th century, officers' buttons were gold or silver plated rather than brass or pewter and they carried swords as a sign of office. So when U.S. officers adopted unofficial field uniforms during before, during, and after the Civil that omitted shoulder straps and just had small bars, oak leaves or eagles, there was no need 2nd Lieutenants to have an insignia, because their gilt buttons, sword and lack of bars/leaves/eagles by default showed their rank. Like Battle Order say, it wasn't until the Army adopted drab uniforms for commissioned and enlisted personnel in WWI that it became difficult to tell a 2nd Lieutenant from a private due to the lack of insignia. The explanations like earth to heavens, silver being more useful than gold, or gold being more malleable than silver are just nice allegorical myths that were created after the fact.

@BattleOrder

3 жыл бұрын

@@daves8255 Good point! I didn't go super in-depth into the uniform differences in the original video but I did mention it as a reason why 2nd Lieutenants didn't have insignia til WW1.

@borkborkfoxxo279

3 жыл бұрын

Sounds like something they would fill cadets’ heads with.