UPDATE: First of all, this is the most active comment section I've ever had for a KZread video. And I can't thank you all enough. Even if your comments are "negative," I truly value feedback and have a desire to improve in any ways I can. That said, a lot of you have pointed out stuff that I wasn't aware of. And I wanted to address that here. 1. As it turns out, your model will get triangulated automatically if you import it into a game engine (such as Unity, Unreal, etc.). As an aspiring game designer, I feel like an idiot for not knowing this. I assumed that these models were triangulated manually by a 3D artist when in reality it's the game engine that has triangulated the model. 2. Game engines aren't the only ones who like their models to be made of triangles. BLENDER DOES AS WELL. What I have demonstrated here: 3:00 is actually what all quads and ngons look like under the hood. Blender (and other 3D programs as well) essentially just trick you into thinking that you're working with quads to make your life easier. What's funny is I've unintentionally demonstrated this at 4:30 where the plane can only deform like that if the software saw it as two triangles. And my dumbass was completely oblivious to this. I'm well aware that this video's reception is rather...mixed. And I apologize to those who didn't have an enjoyable experience from watching this video. But I had learned a lot from you guys and I will try my best to improve in the future. This is probably the most technical subject I'll ever cover on this channel, which is probably why it got the most stuff wrong. Thus, the next couple of videos will cover more general topics. Once again, thank you all for your feedback and stay tuned.

@thesuperchallengebros

6 күн бұрын

Even if the information in this video was slightly misleading, I still appreciated that you went out of your way to try and explain it. 👍

@thedizsilent5188

2 күн бұрын

Don't be afraid or discouraged to tackle technical topics in the future the end outcome is you learned a whole lot worst case you repost a vid or pin a comment. I didn't even know game engines/3d software changed the model's topology to begin with.

@Genebriss

2 күн бұрын

You are just spreading wrong information, why keep the video?

@thesuperchallengebros

2 күн бұрын

@@Genebriss Because the comments on this video have provided helpful information to a lot of people who don't know how CG geometry works. In my mind, the positives of this video's existence far outweigh the negatives.

@tiranito2834

2 күн бұрын

@@Genebriss Because bad propaganda is still propaganda. The video is making numbers despite the fact that it contains information that is wrong. The author himself said it on the comment you just replied to: this is the most active comment section on his channel to this date. Why would he shoot himself in the foot and stop the influx of people coming here to comment? Yes, it's all wrong and an embarrassment of a video where someone who has no clue what they are talking about spouts nonsense... but who's going to say no to a free meal? money is money, and having this golden oportunity to chache out a big chunk of views... who would throw it away? Only someone with integrity, I suppose, which the OP made it clear that they have none of.

Hey ! Game artist student here ! Actually, the specificity of video game topology isn’t in the triangles… because cinema models are all triangles too ! The fact is, most if not all polygon rendering engines, real-time or pre-rendered use only triangles. And your models in blender are no exception, they are triangles too under the hood. That’s the reason your quad looks like two triangles when you move a vertex making it non planar. The reason your models are displayed in quads in blender is, as you said, that’s easier to work with, and, as you guessed, we work mainly with quads too. But the reason the videogame models you get are all triangulated, is because it will get triangulated anyway when rendered, so either the artist or the engine pre-triangulate the model before importing so the engine don’t have to do it at runtime. But we effectively have our own topology requirements to reduce and optimize the polygon count. Having triangles isn’t a big deal if it allows to reduce the polycount and doesn’t create problems when baking or animating (I think one of the reason it is considered as something bad in pre-rendered is because it messes up the lights when using tools such as the subdivision modifier, but I may be mistaking). We don’t have to create a 100% homogeneous topology : if a part of an object needs more topology to deform or to represent is volume, and an other could just be a quad, we won’t bother dividing it. In the same vein, we might add topology just where a model needs to deform. We also have no problems deleting face no one will see. These topology requirements are mainly for the low poly models. We also often create high poly models, by sculpting or with smooth poly modeling to bake details onto the low poly mesh via normal and AO maps.The requirements are different, but you won’t see these models in game as they are used only for the baking

@Dhruv1223

7 күн бұрын

Exactly ever quad is in essence two triangles, because the engines are based on vector maths, for any given surface may that be a quad or a n gon the engine is using vector maths, which is in 3 dimensions, so its at the end of the day calculating things based on triangles

@kokoilie

7 күн бұрын

I agree, you can even see it at 4:30 where the quad deformation is demonstrated how blender treats it as 2 triangles.

@magnusrexus

7 күн бұрын

Thank you

@GuyMcPherson69

4 күн бұрын

You're the hero we deserved

@Nebulous6

3 күн бұрын

The idea that all render engines require tris is a myth. There are a number of render engines (film and gaming) that render quads -- even at the final stage in the rendering process.

Alright let me tell you a secret that I discovered... It's All triangles. All of it. Every quad, every ngon, every mesh, all of it is triangles. It may look like a quad, but blender registers it as two triangles. The "triangulate quad" button is the default shape of what the mesh actually is. Blender doesn't really tell you the truth about quads.

@magiccyborg

8 күн бұрын

😳

@Vm0nkey

7 күн бұрын

Yes this is why triangulated mesh is faster. When you have a quad mesh it has to be triangulated to render. Blender does this on each frame of an animation, in milliseconds which isn't a problem when frames can take minutes to render. I think it divides every quad between the closest vertexes for that quad but I could be wrong it might use a more advanced calculation. This is why really good topology is a mix of quads and triangles and has no poles with more than 5 edges. You put triangles where you want to control how that quad dividing happens.

@harrysanders818

7 күн бұрын

​​@@Vm0nkeyNonsense. Its GPUs that can only render triangles. Blender doesnt triangulate each frame. Its all tris always, you just get shown quads for humam readability.

@crolex6443

7 күн бұрын

@@harrysanders818 Blender does triangulation. GPUs have native implementations for showing quads, but if you have ngons blender has to do triangulation. I'm pretty sure Blender triangulates quads aswell, just because its easier to handle the in code. However, Blender does not perform traingulation EVERY frame. It performs triangulation in the background only when you change the mesh, then uses the triangle data for rendering. The main reasons for triangulation in games is, 1. to reduce polycount, and 2. to precicely control how the model is rendered. As you can imagine there are two ways to split a quad in two triangles. A GPU does this randomly, which can cause unwanted visuals.

@Sub5_77

7 күн бұрын

Yeah, it's just easier on the eye, and speed up the work process. Most game engines will "triangle" it automatically anyway tho.

The right answer is : GPUs have been optimized to process textured triangles for 25 years. The only exception was the sega saturn, that had a 3D chip that was optimized for quads, but this made it more complicated for coders (and artists, remember in these days, going over 500 faces for a model was a luxury, therefore, using a triangle to fill a hole is 100% ok). In either case : Modeling with quads just makes the artist's work easier, with the correct arguments you used. All quads are then triangulated when exporting the model to your prefered format. If you are a prefectionist, you can actually triangulate some quads beforehand, just to keep control of which way the diagonal goes.

@magiccyborg

8 күн бұрын

Wow. I didn't know the Sega Saturn was optimized for quads, that's actually kinda crazy.

@susancarew494

8 күн бұрын

I really appreciate this silly fun vid! Verrrrry interesting! I'm just a big silly myself. I don't know anything about blender, etc. BUT I have to say I learned a thing or 2. Thanks Magic!

@Nebulous6

3 күн бұрын

SEGA's S.C.U.D. Race arcade board also renders quads. And the idea that tris render faster than quads is not true and is one of a number of details in this video that are incorrect.

@CaptainBeebi

16 сағат бұрын

@@magiccyborg It was, and it caused some insane issues that you wouldn't even think about. Consider for a moment you are making a transparent triangle using a quad. 2 of the vertices in this quad are going to occupy the same space. When you go to draw the triangle, the Saturn would rasterize the triangle by drawing strips from the top of the quad to the bottom. But because two of the vertices share a position, it's going to be drawing over certain pixels over and over again, creating weird artifacts where the triangle was substantially less transparent near the overlapping vertices.

"This shows how much game developers value optimization" Call of Duty: 👀

Hello! Awesome video! As a professional 3D artist for games I'd like to add a few things: 1 - we do not always triangulate our models ourselves in this manner before sending them to the engine as many engines such as Unity and Unreal do that by themselves on model at 0 cost since It's import process (dunno about Godot tho), most of these models since you've extracted them straight from the engine could be either the Engine's work or the artists, we can only guess, but ultimatelly usually all models ingame will look so in the end one way or the other. 2 - As you've mentioned in 4:23, sometimes quad topology gets weird surface bendings depending on how the vertices are pointed, there are 2 ways of subdividing a quad (left to right or right to left) so the programs choose one by themselves virtually for rendering be it the modelling software even if you can't see the edge line, leading to hole-like deformations in the silhouette of the model depending on the angle you look and how you want the surface to look like, So we can sometimes do that triangulations our own way to avoid the software making bad decisions. 3 - Adding triangles here and there (If you know where to place them correctly) can diminish the amount of faces by one less edge LOOP in some reagions of the mesh, may not look like much but when you consider how many faces does you're model take till it completes a loop It might be very handy, and help to get away with that nice detail without making the mesh really heavy por it. 4 - Generally N-gons and misplace triangles can create shading issues and bad deformations in animations, but they tend to not create those if the surface they're in is completelly flattened out and is not meant to ever bend down the middle (Hard Surface go Brrrrrrt). The only other problem would be there's more ways the engine would choose to cut those n-gons, but again: if the above conditions are met, who cares, no one will ever be able to see.

Press Alt+J in Edit Mode for go back to quads

@rusername

2 күн бұрын

its probably better to use triangulate modifier though

Every engine uses triangles to render 3D models. Triangles are the most basic geometric shape you can have which in turn makes them a lot easier to process. No matter where the vertices are it will always be a flat plane. This also makes it easier to determine the normal vector, which is essential to shading and lighting. Blender prefers quads because it's easier to make models with them. Blender always renders using triangles.

GPU optimisation has been centred around triangles for a long time. On top of them being dirt cheat to render, they also provide more accurate lighting data then quads.

@coreyaruecker

Күн бұрын

And it’s the most fundamental shape. Every other shape can be made out of the almighty triangle

Video game models are triangulated because the game engine automaticaly convert all faces into triangles

As a few people have stated, the reason why the models are triangles is because tris get generated from quads. When planes get a vertex moved and become "non planer" the shading has a really odd time trying to find the "normal" of a face and you end up with two tris shaded but technically a "quad". This is because blender and every quad commonly seen are Triangles. The reason for modelling in Quads is as you stated Edge flow, sub-D and UV Wrapping. But once it passes through an engine it *normally* gets triangulated. The reason why the mario isn't quad and instead dual tris is because this probably wasn't the model before it went into the engine and probably had been extracted from the game files/engine. Thus it would have already gone through triangulation. There are some very good reasons to use tri topology when doing low poly deformation in joints like knees or elbows to stop pinching behaviors. In any case love the production value on the video, really well produced.

What if the model makers did use proper topology, but they didn't use Blender? Ultimately, models are stored as triangles... so if you loaded a regular model into Blender, it would obviously look like they used triangles for everything. It is sort of like compiling a program written in Rust, decompiling it, and wondering why the person wrote the program in C.

answear: everything is already a triangle to the computer

@ziphy_6471

3 күн бұрын

Illumanati

Intentionally turning some areas of your mesh into triangles helps with random flipping of edges. Which as you had briefly mentioned can affect lighting in some way. Turning a quad into a two triangles tells rendering software and engines that this is the only orientation you would like to see on that quad. This also helps for the same reasons in deformation of the mesh. Intentionally folding two triangles in a specific direction. Like if you needed a nicely folding crease in the cheek when someone smiles. Don't worry about getting things wrong. There is a lot of information out there and we are all still learning. Thanks for sharing your video. Also, although all models may end up being processed as triangles, I would say its a nearly 100% common practice to make models in quads. Just flat out easier to work with , update, iterate and hand off to others. Working with or editing someone's pre-triangulated model is in fact a nightmare. ;)

This is super informative! I love your documentary style and how you present your thought process in such a nice and entertaining way ❤

Thanks for sharing, even I knew that but it wasn't that clear.

You skipped over the fact that a computer doesn't know what a quad is. A quad is just eye candy to make our monkey brains understand stuff better. CPUs and GPUs only know triangles, and every quad or n-gon you see is actually being processed as a bunch of triangles.

Thank you, sir, I was really confused why game uses triangles at first place. I can't thank you enough.

@coreyaruecker

Күн бұрын

It all uses triangles

The GPU architecture is what really matters. They are literally like made to do triangle math. Fun fact, Nvidia used to have an architecture that favored quads, but they were overruled by the markets and eventually switched to the triangle focused architecture.

please actually talk to a game artist the next time you make something like this, you're basically just assuming a bunch of stuff in this video from very limited knowledge

Just so you know when doing stuff in real time performance matters. GPUs only do triangles. A square is two triangles. Squares are two times more intensive. It doesn't do it but it is noticeable. The reason that we see the triangles is because we measure things in triangle count mostly

This is something that’s bugged me for years, but as soon as you moved a point on the square and it made a weird shape it all made sense! Brilliant!

quads internally are triangles so it is a natural conversion, probably the models were made with quads but automatically changed

normaly a quad is two triangles, sharing two vertecies

GPUs can only render 3 kinds of primitives: - Lines - Triangles - 2D rects (i.e. aligned to the screen), usually always square (same width and height). And anything else is made from those.

Triangles are simpler to raster because ther "fragments" (fragments are translated to pixels later) never overlap, in certain instances, quad fragments may overlap their fragments, so their rendering is not as optimal, despite the fact that rendering quads often offer better results, as their seams align perfectly with the shape, unlike triangulated quads whose middle seam can be noticed if the shape has few triangles, this was specially noticeable in Saturn vs PSX games

still one issue you have not moved and more specifically decimate modifier. Once you finish creating a model and for example it has 40k triangles including clothing, you use decimate modifier before exporting. This allows you to reduce the number of triangles by up to half without losing a lot of detail and shape of the model which you would not achieve by reducing quads alone. Shading tends to get weird but then the normal map comes in.

Rendering always breaks Quads into Tris. You can see this by bending a quad & looking at it at different angles to find the extra edge. A video game model just has this & all other operations finalized.

@harrysanders818

7 күн бұрын

This

Non-planar quads are always rendered as two triangles, since there needs to be a ‘crease’ between one set of opposite corners. This is amplified the lower your detail is, ie. The less polygons you have, and the more visible individual edge creases are. In some cases, such as at a joint, one diagonal crease placement looks subjectively better than the other. Therefore it is desirable, especially in a game context where models might have a stricter triangle budget for performance reasons, to manually set triangles so that the diagonals flow as is desirable, instead of it being done automatically which is not guaranteed to use the ideal configuration.

The reason we triangulete the model is cause every engine do that behind the scenes, even if you can't see it, every quade is made of two triangles, so basically the reason to do that is cause you want to decide in wich direction the quad will be splited and turned into two triangles, if you don't do that and let the softwere do, which will wheter you like or not or wheter you can see it or not, and that could endedup creating normals facing the wrong direction what would result in visual errors

Just use tris to quads. It's right below triangulate faces in the dropdown. It doesn't always work perfectly, but it usually works. Game models are triangulated beforehand partially because some game engines simply don't support quads and partially because if the game had to triangulate them while loading them it would just take way longer to load. Blender just triangulates on the fly for rendering anyways.

Since you mentioned Blender's edge count going up when you triangulate quads. Video games don't use edges if I recall, they're completely discarded. Game engines if I'm not mistaken typically store only the vertices of a model and which vertices have triangles in them. And they're typically drawn/rasterized in clock-wise order, edge information is not needed. Also very interesting, having more seams in a UV map also increases the vertices count because it has to add duplicate data for every vertex that is not connected to another vertex. So having fewer and larger islands is also often better for performance too. Another reason games might also use triangles might also have to do with shading. Calculating shadows and such is simpler for triangles because it only has to interpolate between 3 points, calculating shadows for a quad can look really weird and might cause glitchy artifacts if the polygons need to stretch and bend. You can test this yourself by using vertex colors on the default Blender cube and painting it, then compare the result with a triangulated cube.

Best explanation of topology i ever seen

In the end your GPU (even in animation) triangulates the models no matter what. So it's not so much about the vertices, it IS about the faces. But the real number of faces rendered by the GPU is the number after triangulating a model in Blender. That's a good way to measure the actual polycount of your model. A big reason to triangulate your game model may be to control the quad's deformation. Since you have less freedom to add edge loops (less and less true obviously, for around 5 to 10 years now it's almost been a non-problem) you need to be able to control how your quads will deform during animation, and the best way to do that is triangulating and rotating the edge the way you need to. But these are still relevant topics today, especially for indie studios who decide to go for a N64/PS1 aesthetic (Abyss X Zero or The Big Catch for example) or a simpler polygonal style (like Tunic). In such situations it may also sometimes make sense to use triangles for pointy bits. We still try to avoid it, but particularly in low polygon games such as those examples it may be better both visually and for consistence ! Another reason you may find triangulated models is that for commercial games you usually "rip" the model. Meaning some software reads it from the game's RAM and rewrites the data to a 3D file. But when doing that, you're reading the model as it is interpreted by the 3D library and the GPU, meaning it's already triangulated. So no matter what, a ripped model will almost always be triangulated (except for edge cases and when the ripper requadded it).

Sega Saturn only did Quads back in the day. Everything else does triangles

underestimated what i was up for

Underrated. God Bless you dude! Do you have any playlists or tutorials you would recommend for godoh and blender, I know a bit of blender, but I'm barely dipping my toes into game making

@magiccyborg

6 күн бұрын

Thank you! For Godot, I'd recommend the modern classic tutorial from Brackeys for starting out. But once you get a good idea of how the engine and GDScript works I would suggest doing the 20 games challenge by SDG Games. I plan on doing it myself. The website is here: 20_games_challenge.gitlab.io/

I'm still learning myself. I find that it is not always possible to use only quads. Now, I'm no expert and I'm sure more experienced 3D artists know of ways to resolve this, but it seems to me that the only reason you want to use all quads is to make the modeling process easier. Once the modeling process is complete and there is nothing else you plan to do with the model, it doesn't matter, because the export, or import to another program with triangulate everything anyway.

@DiThi

6 күн бұрын

As a seasoned 3D modeller, a few triangles and n-gons are necessary here and there to make the task easier. I end up eliminating all of them but it's more for the challenge than for it being strictly necessary. Tris and n-gons on parts that barely deform at all are no big deal. This only applies to organic modelling, esp. something that is going to be animated or posed. For static objects it may not matter at all in most cases.

its a same thing that sorta like someone reinvented a wheel; spend some time not a whole lot to document it and writing a blog post with short paragraphs about "how exactly do wheel work" as a title, is like on the browser that got a quite long side scrollbar then scroll down little bit then the end of the page . well hypothetically i could go blender org simply create a quad sphere export the file, transfrom the file format the way i want, code the program to read my file, code to buffer to draw some triangle to become 4 edge face some 3d calculation inside my opengl, code a shader 'property' to render my sphere out, so after all, what games is missing now is someone gotta figure out how to implement something like "Shade Smooth" function similar on blender inside their games and also figure a way to optimize game performance

I think blender actually uses triangles but it shades based on quads and ngons. A lot of the file formats you use to send it to a game engine reduce quads to triangles anyway as they'll be converted to triangles to be sent to the GPU anyways. One thing about ngons is that not all 3D software will handle them. If you send an obj file to Zbrush for instance you'll have to fill in holes in your model.

Thanks for sharing but. Why triangles are okey but n-gons are big no?

@menmie

7 күн бұрын

they are acceptable if the geometry of mesh is flat but not if the mesh is complex or if you're gonna deform the mesh (like subdivision), export/import the models, and its gonna make stuffs (like loop cuts, uv unwrapping, triangulation) much more harder, etc

@harrysanders818

7 күн бұрын

Because its bogus. You triangulate your models anyways before tossing them into engine. There will be no ngons. If you control your shading, nGon away, and jus slap on a triangulate modifier to check your results and all good.

@乂Hi乂

5 күн бұрын

@@menmie thanks! But in what cases can I use triangles?

@menmie

4 күн бұрын

@@乂Hi乂 honestly, im not sure. i guess it depends on the geometry and what youre trying to do. maybe you can use triangles to import the model inside a game? or maybe when youre not planning to subdivide and stuff as much on the model. bc like, (sorry for not mentioning it earlier but) i was never an actual 3d arts student; i didn't major in it during college or uni. so like, i really dont know much and most of what I've learned about 3d modelling comes from yt, wiki, and documentations. 3d modelling just been my hobby for as long as i can remember

@ziphy_6471

3 күн бұрын

Bad topology, lighting turns horendouse, When looking from certain sides, it would look heavily fucked up

well done cyborg, loved this vid.

KZread recommended this video to me because i love 3d modeling

uhhh... but N-gons can be used for transitioning the topologies, proper redirection of it or for the UV... It does nothing wrong on flat surfaces.

Quads are used for meshes that's getting subdivided ob render, having all tris model would screw up subdivision, but when you making game you need to have good shape and deformations without things like subdivision surface, so you need to use triangles to make the best shape, and in engine model are getting triangulated anyways.

Quads make subdivision modeling easier and cleaner (and are more efficient than tris). Only some game engines require 3-sided polygons. SEGA has at least one arcade board that supports quads (and apparently so does the Dreamcast).

A really good video. A very solid overview of the topic of topology. Keep up the good work. Now, I see you have found your way into the start of understanding triangle strips and triangle fans. As it turns out, all quods are just two triangles in a trench coat that act like a square. In fact, you see this in play at 4:24. You're also correct about triangles' ability to be planer at any point in space. One reason this is important is because it helps to calculate the normal vector. By taking the vector of two edges from a vertex. You can calculate the cross-product of the two and get a vector that is perpendicular to the planer axes. By normalizing this vector's magnitude, you can find its normal vector. In blender terms, turning on the normal display (edit mode, viewport overlays, normals) you can see this. These are used by the shader to calculate lighting and the way the object is facing. A face facing away doesn't need to be rendered. In rendering, this is called back face culling. By this one calculation of getting a normal vector, games can often gain about twice the performance as they would have because they can skip a lot of rendering. With that said, on the 3D modeling side. Working with quods is much easier because of the subdivision surface algorithm. By finding the halfway point of all edges, you can add a new vertex in that position and recalculate a new edge. Because two triangles make up a quod, it can also find the halfway point of that shared edge. Allowing it to now have nine vertices, easily making 4 quods. Because of their widespread usage, most graphics libraries, like OpenGL and DirectX, kinda just assume you are using triangles for everything. As such, blender tessellates all its quods into triangles anyway. However, the concept of quods is very useful for some algorithms that help with modeling, and as such, it's the reason why n-gons and/or triangles are unwonted. As these algorithms don't work for these types of meshes. Sorry about the long comment. I write a lot of graphics code. Plus, it's fun to talk about these topics :P .

But how do you rig this like when I'm weight painting it's hard to paint around also downloading game models some vertices not connected which is also a problem if i merge them then it's a shading issue, do you know any solution?

I've got a fairly short attention span, so where possible I like to speed up a video as fast as I can process the information (most times 1.75x -- and sometimes 2x) -- Even though you have a fairly slow delivery, this was the first time I decided not to speed up. (Like of course if I'm watching a movie, or something entertaining, I don't speed those up, but anything with information and talking in it). I think it was partly your "animations", I liked the fact your little robot avatar changed expression fairly frequently which made me want to watch it more carefully. Anyways thanks for explaining topology, because I didn't ever really know what it was.

@magiccyborg

3 күн бұрын

Thank you. I really appreciate that. :)

Thanks for you video and research! I may wanna ask a question: if triangle is possible to make computer aka the render faster, is it useable for me to apply them into my model for animation? I do know people would say quads for animate, but somehow everyone knows that not every part need those "quads movement".

@magiccyborg

8 күн бұрын

If you're working on an animated short film, I would recommend just going with quads. With animated films, (while it often takes a while) the rendering process only needs to happen once. Whereas with video games, the rendering process happens CONSTANTLY from what I understand. So video games have more incentive to worry about optimization, thus using triangles. But there are a lot of ways you can optimize a rendered still image that triangles might not actually be necessary. But feel free to experiment and see how much triangles make a difference. Thank you for the question :)

@esu9682

5 күн бұрын

@@magiccyborg Yes, many thanks, constantly is the biggest issue, we may not need those response speed on rendering animation, well~ but I do will go for some testing lol, many thanks again

@sychuan3729

2 күн бұрын

You don't need to triangulare it. Everything is triangulated internaly. Videocard knows only triangles and game engine knows only triangles as well. There is differences between game/movie models but they aren't about triangles.

thanks for the good information

Triangles might be better for optimisation, but working with a model comprised of triangles is an absolute nightmare, Makes things like UV unwraps and texturing a nightmare. So I'ma stick with my quads.

one of my main questions is why there are pretty much 0 ray marched games out there, which is sad because the visuals and effects that can come from ray marching are stunning as seen when it's used alongside regular models. I know it would probably be a pain to make models with raymarching as you would have to somehow define all the shapes you need but couldn't there just be a similar software to blender that handles models in raymarching terms rather than vertices edges and planes?

Thank you, man ;)

Actualy the anwser is that in the end gpu calculate in triangules. We have triangulate tool because all poligons will be triangles. Quads doesnt work at the end and we know it

so what you're saying is... life is a triangle

great vid :)

Thoroughly enjoyable content 😄

Do I need to manually triangulate models in Blender before importing them into a game engine? Because if I import them as quads, UE5, for example, automatically converts them.

@findot777

4 күн бұрын

no you don't

Will triangles increase performance in Blender?

@ziphy_6471

3 күн бұрын

GPU already renders quads in triangles. GPU renders everything in triangles, that is literary how it renders EVERYTHING

Those look like quads converted into triangles

300th subscriber, gg. great content btw

@magiccyborg

6 күн бұрын

Thank you for subscribing!

Great video! Many of the things you mentioned are very common misconceptions among artists, so dont beat yourself up for sharing them. Since you are interested in the subject, I recommend you watch Jonathan Blow's "How 3D video games do graphics" video to get a better grip on the technical aspects. Expecting more videos from you!

Triangles are used pretty much everywhere where meshes need to be displayed. Thats because there isn't any way for normal GPUs to render polygons with more vertices. There's also no reason why they would need to as you triangulate these polygons before rendering either way. Also techniques for calculating all kinds of things has already been figured out for triangles. This is true for both rasterization and raytracing, but it's simpler for raytracing to render simple shapes like spheres compared to triangles. Rasterization pretty much doesn't do anything besides triangles. The only things you can see in computer graphics that isn't made of triangles is things like clouds that are computed mathematically on the gpu directly with shaders 😁

very good video!

Real answer : Game Engines convert models into triangles because GPU renders it that way.

I mean I export my models from blender to unreal engine 5 with good topology and it automatically converts it to a triangle model

N gons are acceptable on flat surfaces

So why not do triangle in film

that was helpful

triangle are impotent to vertex color too

wow. this is some high quality content.

1:00 I find that weird since I thought triangles were the easiest to render

Without optimization games would run like 90% of unreal engine 5 games released.

Hmmm... So that's why in skulpt mode quads turn into triangles... it's for optimization... and I have a question: can triangles also be used for animation?

@vibaj16

7 күн бұрын

Everything is always rendered as triangles. "Quads" are really just 2 triangles.

1:22 "Hohoho boy im gonna sue the sht out of..." - Nintendo

Awesome video! I think that the game engine itself is the culprit behind turning quads into tris. I remember porting an object into Unity one time without turning it to tris, only to then realize that the engine took care of it for me. Also, you can select all and press alt J to turn tris back to quads!

I mean yes the OCs can render those many verticies with ease but you forgot that its doing this while renderng live lighting, maybe raytracing plus the CPO cannot take any work cause its caclulating the physics.

great video mate!

all meshes everywhere are triangles

SO THAT'S WHY I REMEMBERED THAT TRIANGLES WERE BETTER. I started learning 3D modeling a couple weeks ago, and I was very confused as to why they all pushed towards having quads and no triangles. Most of my background is on the technical side of rendering, so I had a feeling that triangles were better, but couldn't pin point why. Thanks for reminding me that I'm not insane.

@vibaj16

7 күн бұрын

a quad is really just 2 triangles. The only difference is that blender doesn't show the diagonal line when it's a "quad"

@bam_bino__

6 күн бұрын

imagine modelling with triangles, it would make you hate modelling... we model with quads, although some swear by only using ngons, with the boolean Ngon workflow anyways we only really use quads bc the it makes the process more intuitive to artists, in the end they will be triangles anyways.

@kigamezero8636

6 күн бұрын

@@bam_bino__ yeah. I'm not arguing that triangles are better for 3D modeling. It's just that I had 2 conflicting rules that stemmed from different fields. Quads are better for modeling, but triangles are better when it comes to engine rendering implementation and optimisation.

wow never knew

Honestly, it's hilarious. I wish no one told the author that all 3D models are actually made of triangles (3D software just visualize them as quads) and that he continues to live in the world in which video game models have WEIRD topology for performance sake. hilarious)

@magiccyborg

3 күн бұрын

If no one brought it up, that would've happened. XD

@BrokeDino

2 күн бұрын

@@magiccyborg we all had our own funny misunderstandings)

Please just research the topics you are talking about, first triangles and ngons are fine on hard surface objects, second video game characters or other animated models are in fact made with quads, third you probably just imported the models from game files thus why there are made of triangles because they had to be converted manually or by the engine, fourth everything in 3D is made of triangles even Blender renders using triangles that's just how it works but they are shown as quads or ngons to make it easier to work with, the only places where you will see models not rendered with triangles are CAD softwares which are based on pure math instead of faces, and voxel engines which are literally 3D pixels.

@neoluigi2078

7 күн бұрын

Damn, I was exactly thinking about making a comment like that but wow, you said everything!

@YplanAnimator

3 күн бұрын

there are video game models that are indeed made with triangles in mind, since I have downloaded some once and most of them had some certain triangles that couldn't be converted back to quads

Well I certainly learned something new today. Apparently this is how to work the comments section into a frenzy: Step 1: Say something naive about game art, bonus points for mentioning Blender Step 2: Profit Seriously, the amount of users who think they have something to prove in this comments section is absolutely staggering.

This is why I make sure there are 0 non triangle polygons on my models. (except for my old models where I didn't know how to optimize my models)

So you don't do trinagalte 3D models in games, game engines do that automatily, or at least that's what I thought until I read the comments below

dude, there are ONLY triangles. quads don't exist. They're just a Blander thing. Hardware doesn't understate them, it only understands triangles.

I am a 12-13 y old Game dev or animator but idk whatever you are saying in the comments

@ziphy_6471

3 күн бұрын

When make model and export, models square turn into triangles.

this video doesnt explain anything

@ziphy_6471

3 күн бұрын

GPU already renders quads in triangles. GPU renders everything in triangles, that is literary how it renders EVERYTHING There, there is the correct answer

i feel so dumb reading these comments lol

You could have researched more maaan

This video is quite misleading. I'm certain that the 3D Artists at Nintendo never triangulated Mario. As others have explained, all 3D models are triangular, and triangulating meshes does not improve performance, because all polys are triangles. If you import a quad model to a game engine and then export it back to blender, you will find that it's all tris. I fear that this video will lead new artists towards bad practices.

@magiccyborg

7 күн бұрын

As much I hate to admit, I can't help but agree. :(

These models you're studying aren't what the artists at Nintendo work with. This is the model after it's been reformatted by their export toolchain in a form that's most efficient for the machine, not the human. The real Mario will have a ton of rigging controls, probably modelled as a quad based subdivision cage mesh with weights, etc. All designed to make life easier for the artists. You're doing the equivalent of looking at the machine code of the game and claiming Nintendo programmers don't use comments or variable names.

@magiccyborg

7 күн бұрын

The model I've imported actually does have rigging controls. I've decided to hide them because they were kind of obscuring the Mario model. But it's possible that the model was rigged by the people who pulled the model from the game files. But your point still stands. As I later found out the machine is in fact the reason why models are triangulated.

Another reason triangles are faster is that, because they're easier and what we stuck with, we then made hardware to accelerate specifically using triangles so GPU's like triangles which in turn, makes them even faster.

is this video a joke? lol