"why is daggerheart causing a fuss?" tldr: its not

@maxkogan3785

3 ай бұрын

It's literally not! It's just the content creators who are salty with Wizards and Hasbro that want to get it over

@arleyantes9321

3 ай бұрын

It kind is, though? When you take in consideration it haven't been released. It's actually on pace to release somewhere in 2025, one whole year from now. This thing making rounds is just the open beta.

@user-wg2eh3iy5r

3 ай бұрын

@@arleyantes9321 Why would an open beta cause a fuss?

@biggrayalien4791

3 ай бұрын

It is over on the CR subreddit. They asked for open beta playtest feedback and day one got a shitton of non-playtest feedback. Someone burned through the rulebook and pointed out all the things they thought wouldn't work in a ttrpg, without actually trying it out.

Yes! The True Gospel! "Stop obsessing over other people's joy, and start focusing on our own (joy)." ❤ Simple but profound ❤

Exactly Man. If your group likes a ttrpg play it. if they don't, move on to something else.

@prosamis

3 ай бұрын

The point of a beta test is to criticize a game's weaknesses and note its strengths. Why are people so adverse to criticism? No, the group doesn't have to go to another ttrpg, it's perfectly valid to criticize and ask for changes, homebrew and devise "solutions"

@yagsipcc287

3 ай бұрын

​@@prosamisit's only certain groups of people who think like this. You can't say anything, you can't be critical (ironic I know) how dare a beta test that wants feedback given it.

Yeah, a community I love reviewed it over three hours last night and they cut it apart bit by bit and found that they really liked what the game is doing.

Concisely put and absolutely true. No game should rule them all. Stop worrying about what other people are doing and focus on maximizing your own experience.

I mean Dimension 20 doesnt stick with DND only stuff either So yeh this should be fun....i just want more Froggo Wizard dude

The games I play and run are because I love them, not because I want not-D&D. Daggerheart looks surprisingly promising to me, especially after Candela was less inspiring to me except to remind me how much I like CoC.

I think that it's really fun to try lots of different ttrpgs, and then use whatever fits the vibe you're going for

I started looking through it last night to try to make sense of the characters they built for the one shot. My initial pulse is that I like the rolling system a lot (really any system that has success with a cost/failure with a benefit is going to pull me in). It’s probably significantly heavier than I’m going to want, but that was always going to happen with them aiming for a similar “weight” to D&D, which is basically the ragged upper bound for crunch in a game I can enjoy engaging with. I like that ancestry and background are present but fairly minimized; that’s a solid approach. Fungal people being core content made my wife’s eyes light up immediately, so that’s definitely a plus. I haven’t gotten deep in the weeds of the mechanics yet, but I’ve heard they swap back to a d20 in combat for some reason, which just (to my mind) adds complexity without benefit; you’ve already got a core dice mechanic; you’d better have a good reason for introducing another one. It’s a shame their system was based around 2d12 instead of 2d10 b/c if they wind up sticking with the d20 combat die, I could ignore that without messing with the math too much then. Ultimately, there’s been enough CR-based good times that they’ve earned a look, but I’m not unseating any of my plans for future games in systems that excite me without a pretty compelling reason.

@Onehithunder

3 ай бұрын

The d20 is only used by the DM when rolling for the eneimes. Players still use d12s

@quickanddirtyroleplaying

3 ай бұрын

The GM uses the d20 when NPCs attack a PC (they have to hit their Evasion score to deal damage). That's the only time the GM seems to make dice rolls for NPCs. The reason that they have that aspect of asymmetrical game design is because the Hope and Fear mechanics are PC mechanics. When it comes to what NPCs do, it's either in response to a PC's action (or lack thereof), or when the GM uses action tokens or the Fear resource, which are both generated by PC actions and dice rolls. Since NPC dice rolls are not the focus in Daggerheart, applying Hope and Fear mechanics to them wouldn't make sense. I personally am non-plus about NPCs making attack rolls in this kind of PbtA-like system: I prefer that an NPC automatically do something to a PC whenever the PC rolls with Fear or when the GM spends Fear to increase the tension of a scene. It moves the action towards resolution without the speed bump of "oh, they missed on their attack roll, so nothing happens." I would prefer that classes have appropriate abilities tied to limited resources (such as Hope and Stress) to actively use in order to mitigate or avoid consequences ala Blades in the Dark. As far as the math between 2d12 and d20 is concerned, even though the spread for 2d12 is a bit wider than 1d20, the probabilities probably align more than those between 2d10 and d20, since the triangular nature of the 2d12 spread tightens the probabilities closer to that of a d20 where modifiers are concerned, whereas the triangular nature of the 2d10 spread makes it so that modifiers have noticeably more impact on 2d10 than on d20. Also, on 2d10, crits occur 10% of the time, whereas on 2d12, crits occur 8.33% of the time (hence, being closer to d20 probabilities than 2d10 would).

Hoping this way of thinking gains much more traction in this space. I've seen Mike Shay pushing this hard also in his recent "It's not for me" video. In a way, I think a lot of this has primarily come out of how D&D 5e has sucked the oxygen out of the room. So fans/anti-fans alike are all wanting to see some change in this space, and their lens for this is their experience of the games they have enjoyed. I suspect in a landscape where 5e isn't so dominant we'll see less inter-system tension... But then again KZread-hate-content-supporting-algorithm go brrrrrrrr.

In a day and age where we have SO many to choose from, why's it anyone's business who plays what? The fanbase needs to chill out, CR are just a bunch of nerds playing a game like anyone else, they are not a role model on how to live your life and don't seek to kill anything for anyone else.

It says a lot about a community when a calm and measured take such as this can come off as surprising.

I've heard a lot of conflicting stuff from people about the game, and I'd love to hear your no-nonsense review, just about the mechanics and not about the hype

Hell yeah play whatever game you want, mix and steal rules, do what makes you happy. Eff the haters who say if you're not playing X then you're not a real gamer.

It's a bizarre insistence on constantly calling this "Critical Role's game" when, in spite of being published under the same banner, almost none of the staff actually credited with developing and/or producing the game are members of the Critical Role cast or crew. Matt Mercer has an "Additional Game Designer" credit in the book itself; the head designer was Spenser Starke, whose relation to the show proper begins all the way back with Candela Obscura, and the rest of the design staff are a mishmash of young pros and amateurs under Darrington Press proper. I wish more respect was given to the actual designers, rather than the people who effectively commissioned the game's development.

@heromedley

3 ай бұрын

why is that even a problem? do you think it would even have this much publicity without them? hell this shit would probably not exist without CR backing and promoting it.

@CrusadiaIX

3 ай бұрын

@@heromedley So we should accredit publicists alone with the quality of a product, and not the developers, writers and artists who designed it?

@WolfHeathen

3 ай бұрын

@@CrusadiaIX Who is this "we" you're talking about? The people over at CR have properly credited everyone. And if you're referring to the fandom, you can't exactly control what individual randos do or say. If they want to credit CR alone there's nothing anyone can really do about it. You're complaining about a nit-pick problem you don't even present a solution to.

@CrusadiaIX

3 ай бұрын

@@WolfHeathen The “we” in this case was a hypothetical in reply to the above, not a pointed statement aimed at some particular group of people. As to “providing a solution”, this entire comment is simply aimed at the fandom who are coming to this video and watching it. The solution to this “nit pick problem” is presented in my actual statement; give more credit to the creators, rather than just Critical Role. I’m not sure why anything I said irks people.

New perspectives and ideas are a great thing. Many of the aspects (that I’ve noticed anyway) of daggerheart have been flushed out in ways that I’m intrigued by. Additionally, including community feedback will be good for the longevity of the system and the game as a whole. Just because there’s a lot of cultural star power behind something doesn’t mean that it’s going to “usurp” or “destroy” anything. And I feel that’s something a lot of people lose in translation. Healthy competition is also a good thing for the markets as well. And aspects from daggerheart and other ttrpgs can always be used to inspire more down the line as well

People are idiots. Good for you, to tell them so.

Preach brother preach! I remember a Lotta games being around so find your corner you like....

Thank you! Downloaded for easy citing, as you hit the nail on the head with style.

Just putting my two cents here, I was previously seething about Daggerheart since a lot of the mechanics seem to be ripped from lesser-known TTRPGs, and with a well-known publisher behind it, it felt like when someone in class repeating your answer but louder. I knew from the start that this isn't a game for me, but the fact that fans of CR will see its mechanics and might believe it to be innovative rubbed me the wrong way. When the playtest doc went out though, I came to terms with it, as they acknowledged the games they took from at the very least (though obviously that's a part of the doc that people would likely just glance over).

Finally, someone with reasonable takes.

Competition is good for the consumer

Unfathomably based. Everyone deserves their own fun.

@WolfHeathen

3 ай бұрын

It's not based. It's just common sense.

@anyoneatall3488

Ай бұрын

​@@WolfHeathenisn't that what based means As in, based in facts?

OMG Taron, I will be giving this video to other people. Seriously, I could not have said it better myself: Enjoy what you enjoy, pass on what you don't. Have fun, and play more games! Never let anyone tell you that you have to like something, or that the game _you_ want to play is "wrong". The TTRPG fandoms could do with a lot more chill these days.

Everything is fine and dandy, but are we allowed to criticise a product if we feel it is mediocre?

@Indestructoboy

3 ай бұрын

Absolutely. Criticism is absolutely healthy, but criticism isn't just dogging on a thing because it isn't for you which is a lot of what's happening around Daggerheart.

@SvartElric9

3 ай бұрын

@@Indestructoboy yeah, of course I'm aware that there are people out there who just wanna hate on things for the sake of it... which is doubly bad, because I feel like legitimate criticism isn't welcomed anymore and just thrown away with all the gratuitous hate. Which in turn causes echo chamber mentality and that leads to a deeper divide and so on and so on.

It’s fun and fast paced. Love it🤙

YES! Thank you! But you know... Will you do a video about the beta test doc?

All I can say is yes another fun looking ttrpg

I can see the rough edges with the playtest material but overall i think theres a strong foundation to the game. The domain card system in particular looks like a great way to homebrew things in once i get used to the balance of it. I dont think its going to be my groups new game overall but I'll be happy to run a campaign some time with it

Preach it

Absolutely nailed!

so far i'm REALLY liking what i've read of the rules

Honestly, yeah. There's plenty within the system to critique, people really need to stop comparing it to other systems to make these points or being disappointed it's not a dnd 5e with a new coat of paint, ala Tales of the Valiant.

Yes.

This guy would absolutely rock a monocle

Personally it trys to do something I'm Interested in but rn there are some things it could do way better alot really. But this was first called there response to DND so being a DND alternative was always gonna be a thing so I can't blame the community for thinking it was meant to fight it.

It looks like a good starter rpg I've only played with the character creator. I'll have to see it played before i give a judgment call on it.

im just glad to see more and more ttrpgs and am hoping Daggerheart will help break the DnD stranglehold. Not kill it. DnD is fun. But help make space for non-DnD systems.

I do think that CR is actively trying to get away from Hasbro WOTC and do their own thing, and to be honest i dont blame them.

I just tried reading the daggerheart pdf… 377 pages… it was just too much!

Thanks for saying it. As someone who's been gaming for 30 years I feel exactly the same way about the ''grrr grrr X demographic that isn't mine is not playing TTRPGs the RIGHT way and it's RUINING THE HOBBY" discourse. If anything's "ruining the hobby" it's this baffling insistence that the TTRPG community somehow doesn't have room for all these people who like different things to have and enjoy the things they like.

@davidskidmore3442

3 ай бұрын

This. I've also been gaming for about as long; and I've played a bunch of different RPGs; some are very rules-heavy, like D&D 3.x, Hero System, and GURPs; others are the opposite, like Amber Diceless Roleplaying. Each makes it easier to tell some kinds of stories, and harder to tell others. D&D is great for a certain kind of story but may not be what a particular player or a GM wants to tell. I think a lot of the modern hobby just hasn't had the opportunity to see anything else.

Awesome take

Thank you finally someone is being normal about the game

Real truth

It's amazing. It's legitimately made for the irl style of play

@anyoneatall3488

Ай бұрын

For a particular style of play As all games are

I think for a lot of people there was just a big misconception around the game because of the original announcement and the actual launch of the open beta. Matt referred to it directly as a "new d20 system" and there was a lot of implications on different panels and tweets that made it very much seem like what they were developing was a dungeons and dragons alternative. Which from what I can gather most people expected a Coke/Pepsi kind of alternative and what we got was a coke/sprite alternative. Sure they're technically in the same category but they're vastly different products and experiences. I think a lot of people feel let down, honestly I did too with what we got being so bare bones when this is supposedly a system Matt has been working on since pre-CR. I'm glad it exists for the people who are going to enjoy it but it's not what I expected and my expectations were entirely formed by the information they gave us so it's understandable the reactions are mixed imo.

❤❤❤

After watching the live play, i feel pretty confident the intended audience is kids and new to ttrpg players. Its a super simple system, great for family game night and introducing people to the world of TTRPG's with everything there to quickly and simply build a memorable 1 shot. Its a non intimidating gateway into the world we love. Keep in mind this is based on the play and not the game mechanics because i havent looked at the system, the hope, fear\, stress mechanics confuse me currently.

@davidskidmore3442

3 ай бұрын

As a player whose TTRPG history pre-dates the modern popularity of 5E, the most common response I've seen to the idea of playing something that is not-D&D is that people don't want to have to learn a whole pile of new rules to play a game, when they could just play D&D instead. There are plenty of great TTRPGs out there whose primary limitation is that they are too complicated (Looking at Hero/Champions, GURPS, WHFRP here). They are mostly complex during character creation, but once past that have very D&D-like mechanics. Others, like Blades in the Dark and Apocalypse World, have a different arrangement between the players and the GM, but are still fundamentally about rolling dice to decide outcomes for actions. Daggerheart seems to have been designed to have a similar feel at the table to D&D. It's a heroic fantasy cooperative game, with stats and classes and races and such. That said, they've taken advantage of the last 20 years of game designs to make the game more approachable, with customized character sheets, and the card systems; and to make the game less focused on specific rules and mechanics, and more focused on the story that the GM and the players are telling. If you read a story, it doesn't cycle between each character's viewpoint every half a page; you get a section for this character, and then an update on the next. If one character was largely supporting another, you don't get a whole section on them, they're just in the scene with the other. Some characters are never the 'point of view' character. D&D's initiative system tries to 'simulate' time in a fight, and in doing so slows down the telling of the story of a fight. It's all very orderly, but because most players are waiting in line, they do 'waiting in line' behaviors; they pull out their phone, talk to a friend, read something unrelated, get lost in thought about something that happened earlier in the day, etc. Then when the line moves, the next person in front is startled and has to take their turn. Daggerheart's combat system encourages players to be ready to go, but doesn't punish the entire party for one person not being ready; and in fact, doesn't punish you for taking more or fewer turns in combat than another player.

@davidskidmore3442

3 ай бұрын

As an addition; if you're from a D&D 5e mindset, Hope is Heroic Inspiration... it's just way easier to get and is used for way more things. Fear is Heroic Inspiration for the GM. Hope comes easy and spends easy for players as they take actions. Stress is kinda like a separate damage track for mental damage. Certain actions stress you a bit. Combat, even if you aren't hit hard enough to be injured, can be stressful. If you're completely stressed out, you can't focus enough and stuff that might just stress you before, now cause injury... and some stuff you just completely cannot do because you can't take any more stress right now.

Yeah, from what I've seen what you like about games, it probably wouldn't be your pick. And yeah, there are sure to be many to whom it does appeal. Great, good to be free to choose what we like at our own tables. Great point about why one should not be upset about OTHERS either way and just have a good time for ourselves with a game we like.

100% agree its great just hav3 fun playing your TTRPG That said I am still going to wait for something that can replace dnd 5e because the balance of that game wooooah boy

@Sanguivore

3 ай бұрын

Do you want something that’s basically an open source clone of 5E, or just looking for a game in general to replace it?

But isn’t it a beta right now? Not a finished product? So why the “fuss”?

@80AM.

3 ай бұрын

its not like the mechanics are going to change.. lol

@Orinfoo

3 ай бұрын

@@80AM. so what’s the point of open beta then?

Don't Yuk someone else's Yum.

Thank you, man. I dont get it. I understand that there's a huge hate boner for D&D and Hasbro rn, but not everything is going to be made to "usurp" dungeons and dragons.

I think it’s causing a fuss because people are still angry at corporate jerks running D&D. The OGL thing that blew up, ya that burned peoples trust and now there’s a demand for a suitable alternative to rival D&D. Also, lots of Critters I bet were some of the spurned, and they would love to see Critical, being in the good position that they are, be the flagship for competent competitors. If I had to guess, I’d say the majority may also just not like D&D’s stranglehold on the game genre in the eyes of the culture too. When people think of ttrpg, the normies think of D&D. It’s become like Kleenex being synonymous with tissue. And that dominance impacts the success of competitors because of its recognition.

Simply speaking any "X" killers are doomed to failure, any attempt has ended badly or just not as big as people hyped it up to be It happened with killzone when it was hyped to be THE halo killer, to saints row when it tried to be the GTA killer (and again to watch dogs) It has happened countless times to endless TTRPGs who try to take on DnD head on and fail. You think in 40 years of history no one has tried to create THE DnD killer, the best attempt has definetly be pathfinder and only because for a while it was literaly just an expansion of DnD 3.5e Once a franchise becomes the powerhouse of its industry its nearly imposible to take it down

@davidskidmore3442

3 ай бұрын

The thing is, in all those industries, and to add to that, in the ARPG genre ruled by Diablo games, the 'big dog' of the genre can only really be taken down by itself. The latest Halo release isn't getting rave reviews; CS2's replacement of CS:GO has been wildly unpopular, Diablo 4 has been panned pretty hard, etc. If D&D loses its top billing in the TTRPG market, it will be because it gave it up by changing too much (See 4E), or not enough (the end of 3.5). There is plenty of room for more than one TTRPG. White Wolf did just fine putting out supplements for Werewolf and Vampire and Mage during the time D&D 3.x was popular. Other games having been doing just fine while 5e holds a spotlight. When D&D drops the ball, like they did early last year, like they continue to do with the push to online-only content, subscription services, etc... there's lots of other games out there.

This isn’t actually a Short

@Indestructoboy

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, KZread doesn't seem to have had it "click" on their end

I'm still waiting for your full analysis of what they have released. Its great for learning.

lmao i thought its because they use "ai" art in their website

@Indestructoboy

3 ай бұрын

they... did?

Yeah, I can understand that. I just think that DaggerHeart might be... *flawed*. I'm not expecting it to be 'the next D&D', maybe more like... another Pathfinder or similar 'auxiliary RPG' at the best scenario. Thats the thing about the TTRPG biz though, their advantage is that if your game gives off the right 'vibes' then even if its a 'bad game' mechanically, people will still like it, and good for them. Like a food critic complaining about how many people enjoy the slop that is a Whopper. Though yeah, critically speaking, in my case I think Daggerheart feels like a game that wanted to be a boardgame as opposed to a TTRPG, due to like how many accessories are 'required' just to play it, you got tokens, maps, cards, all these things that I would have expected if I were playing Gloomhaven. And yet it's not crunchy enough to deserve all the rules that it currently has.

@RecklessFables

3 ай бұрын

The sheets on demiplane are pretty darned elegant though and eliminate most of the need for accessories. As for the physical accessories, I think that is going to be how they monetize. The system itself might be bloat-free but they can charge for premium decks, etc, for those that might want to go that way.

@notbob555

3 ай бұрын

You don't *NEED* any physical accessories to play. They're just nice to have. Like the spell decks for 5e. All you need to play are the free PDF's. You don't even have to print anything out if you don't want to, they were just designed to be printer friendly for those who do.

@SplotchyInk

3 ай бұрын

@@notbob555 ​ @RecklessFables I'm one of those types who prefers physical when playing, not even digital character sheets cause I usually play to get 'away' from computers and phones. ((Even if I'm playing on the computer I prefer to have as much 'physical' to limit window switching)) So the issue is that there's a 'lot' of stuff to track, you have hope and fear points that your constantly scratching on and off your sheet, you have armor slots that your constantly scratching on and off. The sheets are designed with cards in mind so you cant just 'look up' your new abilities and scribble them down on a section of your sheet forever but instead you have a card you need to print out and cut cause, as mentioned, the sheet doesn't actually have room for that. And don't tell me your using a digital dice roller to roll your dice, you know that's the devils plaything (I'm joking). So you need 2d12's that are different colors which is 'fine', if this develops into a '12' piece dice set (2D20's, 2 contrasting D12's, D10, D%, D8, 4D6's, and a D4, with a coin to boot) then I'll be happy cause 'yay more dice'. You 'also' need character tokens for combat so that when you do an action you place it on that little mat and then when its the GM's turn he gets to use all those tokens. The character sheets look like they are BEGGING for classic 'worker placement game' style cubes that you place on it to track everything. Though this is really starting to look like it was 'designed for digital' which I feel is less of a 'me' problem and more of a design flaw, cause if you need an I-pad to keep track of your game then I think you need to cut out some of the bloat, 'or', you just make it into a video game.

@notbob555

3 ай бұрын

@@SplotchyInk Sounds to me like a second piece of paper will solve most of your issues. Nothing is stopping you from writing your abilities down on a second piece of paper. And using scratch paper for your HP, Armor, and Hope points will stop you from having to constantly erase on your main character sheet. Using a token to represent those points is also a good idea, but just like the action token, there is no need for you to purchase anything. You can use literally any object you already have to represent these things. You also aren't keeping track of any fear points if I remember correctly. That is a DM resource. Not player. The character sheet in the current PDF's also has a spot for class features. It's not massive, but I find most TTRPG character sheets don't have enough space anyway unless you write super tiny.

@SplotchyInk

3 ай бұрын

@@notbob555And this is where my criticisms come in. Half of this 'stuff' could just be on a 2 sided single sheet of paper. But, this TTRPG 'wants' to be a board game, so it separates all its class features and stuff onto cards you need to print out, it asks you to have identifiable player tokens for its 'action tracker'. The game seems to desperately wishes that the player sheets were those cool double layered cardboard playmats with little inset spaces that fit wooden cubes so you can easily track your statuses, and that you can slide your cards in. Even though, in reality, it would have been so much easier to just have a single sheet of paper and maybe like... an extra D4 or something to track numbers or a counting cube. But instead, this TTRPG feels like it would rather be something like Gloomhaven or Decent, things where the GM is as much a 'player' in the 'game' as the others, or has it's own 'automated' GM. I feel this ends up being a symptom for an issue in the rules. After taking a day with my friends to play a couple sessions (we do shorter 2-3 hour sessions), there was a disjointed feeling that it was 'missing' that stuff. Like if you were playing Arabian Nights and instead of fully written out paragraphs of story to read out and inflict on others with "Pick a choice" it just shrugs and says "aye GM, tell em something bad happens, and make it witty and creative", like it was some kid trying to get Chat GPT to tell it a story. And after all that, it kind of ended up being a less 'flexible' and 'narratively diverse' experience than say, a zine game, or even Mork Borg or Cy Borg. I think it needs to either go 'full crunch', or it needs to just chop off half the rules and 'guff' to make it a much more streamlined game. If I were a less kind man, I'd say that this game was designed to sell branded accessories, fancy expensive box sets, and character specific tokens and the like.

Are you actually missing an eye or is that a fashion eyepatch?

@bizooty8782

3 ай бұрын

He is indeed missing an eye. He has a video about it on his channel.

W take

This game just sucks. We're moving on.

you look a lot like apostate prophet

Remember for around two decades, when tons of video games were sold to us as Halo Killers? It’s the same vibe but the fans are doing it this time.

You can't say anything, you can't be critical (ironic I know) how dare a beta test that wants feedback given it.

@Indestructoboy

3 ай бұрын

That's not what I said at all.

What if complaining about things on Twitter *is* my game of choice? Then who's the one with the problem 😈? Bad-ass eye-patch by the way 🏴‍☠️.

if it is then its because Candela Obscura showed that the people making their RPGs really...can't. Will be good for people who end up liking no stakes, storytelling "games", and want to play something from the people they have parasocial relationships with.

I mean I agree 100% but Critical Role is just about the only people with the audience and the money to put up a fight with WotC. Of COURSE there was going to be a spotlight on this game. I think people are disappointed. It over designed and not new player friendly. Even to TTRPG enthusiasts. You say it doesn’t have to be ‘the DnD killer’ but that’s what people want! And this ain’t it.