i actually removed primitive dice-based initiative altogether from my games and replaced it with a much more advanced system of having my players shout what they want to do as soon as i start to describe the room. if i shout before they do, it means that their party is surpised. this has a couple advantages over more traditional dice rolling systems, in that i hate my neighbors and have thin walls.

@theeye8276

3 жыл бұрын

Ya sounds like it would cause people talking over each other and arguments on who spoke first

@tuomasronnberg5244

3 жыл бұрын

@@theeye8276 Obviously these arguments are settled by whichever player shouts the loudest.

@markyst.ruggles1878

3 жыл бұрын

Seems complicated. As you know less complexity means it is better. Good luck.

@TheArcturusProject

3 жыл бұрын

That’s amazing! I might take some version of that.

@aquakroot

3 жыл бұрын

@@theeye8276 you're wrong. it's a very good system

1d6 every round is fun. Caller says what everyone is doing and GM says what the monsters are doing. Roll dice, and then narrate what just happened. Fast, fun, and gets players talking to each other. Get a scattegories style timer for that fast ticking sound. Love it.

@m_d1905

3 жыл бұрын

I've used this with group initiative for surprise, if needed. It works. I also use where the closest gets to swing first, with long range able to go about the same time.

@tehguybro

3 жыл бұрын

So does the player and its monster take damage at the same time? Like, a double K.O. is a possibility?

@nowthenzen

3 жыл бұрын

2D6 is better, fewer ties so fewer re-rolls and any modifiers the GM may allow do not cause as significant bias

@williamlee7482

3 жыл бұрын

@@tehguybro That's one of my rules in my game because I see it as getting one last hit in before you die

A compromise I reached with one group was first thing we did at any session was roll initiative. That whole session, every combat was that initiative

@samuelbroad11

3 жыл бұрын

brilliant, straight to the action and tension.

@shepherd76

3 жыл бұрын

If you maintain who was last to act and continue from there it works. I was in a game where I rolled last and had two combat turns through three encounters.

@MyBacktrail

3 жыл бұрын

Making players who suffer a random low roll deal with it the entire session. if changing something reduces the fun of one or more players, you're not making the game better. You're simply making it easier for you. How freaking hard is it to write down a few initiative scores? I don't find it that difficult.

I love Conan 2d20's initiative system: The PCs go first by default. The GM may elect to have individual enemies act out of turn by spending metacurrency (called Doom). It's simple, easy to remember, and empowers the GM to spice things up a bit when they deem it appropriate.

@dandepalma9305

3 жыл бұрын

Conan 2d20 has many good ideas that are more genre flavored. A great design

@crimfan

6 ай бұрын

All other 2D20 games have something similar. Star Trek Adventures, for example, has a PC first (usually in a default order of highest Daring to lowest) and then an adversary, then a PC, etc. There are talents that can keep the initiative and the metacurrency can be spent to take the initiative. Eventually every PC, ally, or adversary goes and the round starts again. This could work in a 5E adaptation fairly well I think, with feats like Alertness and spells like Alacrity allowing a turn swap. They'd still be valuable.

1d6 each round definitely sounds like a fun way to quickly establish an order. I rarely use initiative by the book these days so I’ll have to give this a shot!

@jgkrus

3 жыл бұрын

Good point... I see it as if your walking or on patrol and your ambushed the person who sets the ambush goes first..

@NemoOhd20

Жыл бұрын

Well, it IS "by the book".... it just isnt in the book written by evil hipster wizards of Seattle.

Never being Occom's razor to a cheov's gun fight

@BoojumFed

3 жыл бұрын

*Murphy chuckles from the shadows...

For a long time, I used to have my players write down their turns on slips of paper, and put them into a bowl. Then when all player and enemy turns were in the bowl, I would pull one at a time to make it fully random, and prevent them from changing their minds when circumstances changed. Then we'd repeat next round - the downside is it was kinda slow, but it made the players very excited when their planned actions worked out the way they wanted it to xD

@KylonRic

3 жыл бұрын

I love this idea! I think it would be an awesome situation in which to throw off my players one day. Perhaps they’re attacking a wizard with an orb of divine foresight. When any action is determined within its presence, you must follow through. Players will have to think ahead of what they want to do, work together, and pray XD

@Otacsom

3 жыл бұрын

@@KylonRic Do it! That would be a really cool mechanic, for a fight like that!

Tried this last night based on your recommendation. The players were GUSHING about how much more they enjoyed combat and how much more comfortable they felt. Thanks, Prof!

@vict3rini

2 жыл бұрын

@@piper2323 chaotically and narratively! We've kinda morphed it so that on Player turn they all declare their intentions and then each player rolls a d20. That roll is both their attack (if applicable) and the order we resolve things in. On Enemy turn they can use reactions (and it's easier to track). It's all more uptempo and organic.

Anything that speeds up gameplay, especially during combat, is always a plus in my book.

@NathienSK

3 жыл бұрын

Funny that rolling Initiative once is tedious and slows things down. But rolling it every turn is magically faster. :D

@nickromanthefencer

3 жыл бұрын

@@NathienSK i mean, hell, ya might as we’ll just decide who wins with a single dice roll anyway. Faster = better, right? 🙄

@sefatsilverlake3816

3 жыл бұрын

@@NathienSK You don't roll initiative once, you roll it once for each player + adding modifiers + once for each group of the same monsters. Lets say you have 4 players and 2 different kind of enemies, those are 6 rolls. With rolling a single d6 by side each turn 6 rolls represent 3 whole rounds, and by OSR standards, 3 rounds is pretty much the whole fight. The difference? you don't have to look at the order chart/pins/writen info each turn or each time a monster dies or each "initiative count 20" special ability.

@thebolas000

3 жыл бұрын

@@sefatsilverlake3816 I just pre-roll the monsters' initiative and use a Google Sheet to track initiative, AC, HP, and special abilities. The only thing I need to update is the PCs' initiative and even then it's not very often.

If you're good at it, standard RAW initiative can be fast. Step 1: I say roll initiative and all my players roll their d20s asap. Step 2: Starting at my left and going clockwise I point to each player. All players must have their initiative roll ready when I ask for it. If not, they get placed at initiative 0. Step 3: As each player says their initiative, I place their initiative tracker on my dm screen. I'm very fast at this. The trackers are folded notecard pieces already hanging on the right side of my screen. Step 4: I place initiative trackers for the enemy at 10+dex, I also have reminder markers for RP and lair actions at 20 and 0. It takes less than 60 seconds. If your group needs house rules to speed up the game, that's fine, but the game can be fast RAW.

I think what we love most about your channel is when you give us ideas to make the game more fast-paced and fun.

@TheShadowKarl

3 жыл бұрын

I agree. These videos are my favorite ones. What I have always liked about his channel is his ability to challenge the current rules and take new and old ideas and offer play-tested advice on what works best. I especially like when he throws out an idea that I never even thought of.

I think when people say "combat is too slow" what they mean is something along the lines of when the kids in the back seat of the car say "are we there yet?" It is easy to see this as a "car needs to go faster" problem when the problem is also that the kids are just bored or want to do something. Group initiative rolled every round probably isn't faster in terms of someone timing it with a stopwatch, but it is more engaging as far as you being able to make plans to do stuff as a group, and less predictable because sometimes you get to go twice, and sometimes the bad guys do. Less predictable and engaging are anti-boredom, and metaphorically help the kids be less prone to "are we there yet?"

Your first video on group init is what got me hooked to your channel. nice to revisit it for new viewers! I also do charisma score initiative for noncombat scenarios with NPCs, lucidly considering background, class, feats, and situations. Too many times charismatic people play low chr fighter soldiers, and low charisma people play high chr warlock charlatans. In these situations, the DM should mediate situations where shy people have a chance to lead the party with the first conversations. Seasoned players will pick up on this and start including shy players more. Also, I do wisdom score initiatives in noncombat dungeons scenarios for the same reason. Who sees what first, and who can discern which party member is best for the job.

This is how Mork Borg sorta does it, and I love it.

Personally, my favorite initiative system I've ever encountered was Pendragon 5th edition, where the initiative was simply decided via the rolled-off attack roll for who hits and if you get to add your shield armor to damage reduction. Round to round initiative in this way feels way more like a back and forth, back and forth combat we see in movies and fight scenes that we're thinking of when we rolled our characters in the first place, and makes for very fast combat that FEELS like combat.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Ай бұрын

I played Pendragon 2nd. Good game.

Group initiative rolling + Dark Sun campaigns are literally some of the most visceral and memorable runs i've ever had. People get so engaged as the concept of working as a team reverberates out into all aspects of staying alive.

When I grow up I wanna be a grognard! I can't wait to be in person again for some quality D&D. EDIT: upon further inspection, I have learned I can either grow up or become a grognard. I still choose D&D!

Like most things, I tailor my method to my group: Middle schoolers (herding cats)? Fixed initiative based on how their seated (which they can adjust between rounds). My own kids: d6 group Beardy grognards: fixed Dex based with liberal DM fiat.

I like to do the bolt action initiative. Everyone has one token that we put in a bag. Shake the bag. Pull one out. That person goes. Redo once everyone has gone

@BanditsKeep

3 жыл бұрын

I tried this once using the troika system deck - interesting but my players did not like it. Of course in that system one card is “end of round” so sometimes PCs and or monsters did not get to go in a round. We said we’d try it again without the end of round card, but fell back into d6 side initiative as we like that best.

@hallopino

3 жыл бұрын

How is this faster or better than just rolling?

@judahthiem5487

3 жыл бұрын

@@hallopino it adds unpredictability. You don’t know who’s going next. My players enjoy the excitement of pulling out their initiative token.

@judahthiem5487

3 жыл бұрын

@@BanditsKeep we do it in a way where everyone gets 2 turns and reshuffle. 2 tokens per person. We put them in a separate bag when we pull them out and then use that bag and repeat

@BanditsKeep

3 жыл бұрын

@@judahthiem5487 Yes, we did the 2 turns, but also had the "end of round card" which was sometimes epic but often resulted in 1 or more PCs not going, so I definitely would ditch that if I tried again and do it your way.

Using a VTT makes initiative rolling much easier. And if playing in person (which I haven't done in nearly 5 years now), I'd ask everyone to roll initiative once at the beginning of the session and then that's the initiative for the rest of the night. Group initiative (which I have tried and there are some systems that use it by default) tends to heavily emphasize one side over another and often the success or failure comes down to which side gets the drop (which is realistic but gets boring after a while).

PDM Hypothesis: Individual initiative takes too long. Solution: Roll Group Initiative each round, then have players debate who goes when and why to fully plan their turn, THEN roll all dice and sort through the individual details. ME: Apparently, I missed something, because at my table, that debate over who goes when would take an eternity!

@andysykes4328

3 жыл бұрын

Ive been playing for 40years, various systems and also many wargame systems. Youre right more discussion, slower play. In my experience players take far too long to decide their action when they are going to act. If you add in that they as a group have to decide the order of initiative???

@TheArcturusProject

3 жыл бұрын

He says other places just go clockwise around the table, and they shouldn’t be allowed to plan or change their plan. It’s just “I Attack the goblin” “I also attack the goblin” “I use my fireball on the goblin” and no one can change their plan. It’s set in stone.

@TheArcturusProject

3 жыл бұрын

Just put a timer on. Combat is supposed to be in 6 second rounds. Give them 6 (or 10 seconds if they’re babies) and then they miss their turn.

@TheArcturusProject

3 жыл бұрын

Oh there it is “sit the players clockwise in order of highest dexterity”

@SevenWondersProd

3 жыл бұрын

I must offer a dissenting view to this video as well. As DM I have monster initiative set so I don't have to roll (10+Dex bonus typically). The players get a rush when I say, "roll Initiative." They take maybe 30 seconds to roll and report what their results. During that time they get into combat mode. The real benefit to individual initiative is that each combat is different. They can't rely on the same character going first or last, they have to adjust each time. That engagement is where the fun is, kind of like looking into the eyes of the sun. My players are into tactical play however. The variables of a different initiative each combat offers a lot to the decision making. At least at my table this works well.

You used the word "verisimilitude", and correctly at that. You good sir, have my respects.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I try to run a classy channel.

Roll 20 combat tracker makes sense for 5e style individual initiative. Back in 1e, we used a d6 group although we didn't have a designated caller. We just went around the table and each person took an action. It made combats very focused on winning initiative. Then out came a Dragon article with a group initiative system that incorporated some additional combat maneuvers (parry, dodge, twist, thrust!). It made so much sense to my feeble teenage brain. When I tried it, it took forever. 5e combat takes long and everyone blames initiative. That's just the start of combat though, and an automatic initiative tracker helps a ton. You could gain the verisimilitude that DrD speaks of here by calling out actions before rolling (or after rolling) but that would add a ton of time, I think.

Because everyone loves rolling dice, I usually have one dice roll for the enemy, and usually have a pre-rolled initiative 'marching order' for the players (which they reroll after an encounter or the start of a new session). in dungeon crawl situations, it lets you rotate through players' actions so people don't sit on the sidelines while 1-2 people drag the party by the nose, and it accelerates the combat process for the DM with only a single turn to manage. Player ties for initiative can be negotiated/yielded, and DM initiative falls below player initiative. If the monsters have surprise, the turn starts on their initiative.

I love the idea of the team declaring their actions together. I’ve seen some people in here saying that having your spells spoiled multiple turns in a row wouldn’t be fun. To that I say work better as a team. If the Wizard had a high spell to get off and it’s important someone should protect them while they do it. As a DM any attack at the Wizard would be directed at whoever is protecting them. I loved how Caramon would protect Raistlin while he would cast a spell in the DL novels.

I run ICRPG and use d20 + DEX group initiative vs. Room DC (reroll each round). As a DM, I find it the best way to handle initiative: it's quick, it's engaging, and everyone knows what the high DEX PC needs to roll. And it makes the rogue (+4 DEX) feel important because as soon as he goes unconscious someone else (+1 DEX at best) will have to make that roll lowering the chances on high DC rooms. You said method with the lowers steps a this has only one, as only players roll, so you may like it or not, but it sure is the quickest (it'd be quicker if it was static as per the ICRPG's ruleset, but I enjoy the unpredictability, as PDM said).

We've been using group initiative for roughly 12 sessions, and it's a nightmare. Encounters are either a near wipe or a breeze, which makes sense when you consider the action economy. Plus the group initiative combat feels very the same, which would be even worse if it were based on where you're seated or your class. Completely breaks the immersion that in a chaotic combat scenario, the rogue is ALWAYS first especially if they're sitting to my right....outside of game. We started using the roll20 initiative roller, which auto populates an initiative tracker on screen. Which thank goodness, since I'm placed to one corner of the google hangouts screen (or most to the left at the table) I would go last every group initiative, so highly incentivized to finish a weak enemy instead of doing anything else. We tried the collaborate turns once, but that made the pause to take initiatives look instantaneous by comparison.

@petegiant

2 жыл бұрын

5e?

@michaelfoye1135

2 жыл бұрын

Sounds like the problem is that the encounters are essentially mob battle free for alls where everyone on the battlefield attacks every round. A but of more careful pacing should go a long way toward fixing that. But it does require forethought and foresight on the part of the DM. Intervening terrain such as pillars, trees, cyclopean blocks, counters and tables, etc., can go a long way towards reducing the everyone shoots it out in the open massacre effects your group seems to be suffering from.

Point of interest: round-by-round initiative is a mechanic often seen in tabletop wargames, settled by a d6 roll at the top of a new round. As observed here, it creates the possibility of two kinds of "double turns". A: one player goes first at the top of two rounds. B: one player takes two turns back-to-back - end of last round, beginning of next round. This creates an intuitive kind strategy growing out of how the turn order resolved. As with initiative in TTRPGs, some players do not prefer this and like turn order to be fixed from the top of the battle. But there's an argument for using it, which is why some wargames retain it.

as an initiative options I tried once. I purchased some blank playing cards and wrote each characters name on one. I then wrote Monster 1, 2, 3, etc on each others. Then I shuffle the cards and reveal the order of turns as I turn over the card. I do this every round. I thought it was creative and would keep players engaged since they didn't know when their time would come. Unfortunately i t went over badly because my players hated they couldn't plan ahead and when it was their turn they spent way too much time trying to decide what to do. They complained so much I went back to the standard system. I did try the D6 every round for a while as well, again they hated it. They didn't like to work as a team and complained that it penalized characters with higher dex who rely on always going first..... power games suck I guess but it seems to be prevalent these days sadly.

@tubebobwil

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah that does not sound like the funnest time to me. From AD&D 2e through 5e, character "builds" have been emphasized to the detriment of actual play experience.

@aarndal90

2 жыл бұрын

I have the same problem with my players.... Every time I try to change things to make the game more challenging or unpredictable, they hate it because it "destroys" their builds and feels to harsh. And they don't know how to work together either. Everyone wants to be the special hero... I think this is a problem due to video games, pop culture, and the 5e rule system, since almost anyone can do anything (especially spellcasting with almost no restrictions). But to be fair, I'm also not a big fan of the group initiative as it totally destroys 5e's action economy which can lead to more TPKs.

@dasseher1467

9 ай бұрын

Aeons End does this, which leads to the players negotiating their turn over and over again, as one has itneractions with others, that some need to use, but others would only use, after they took their turn and so on. Reveal them at the start of the round and you basically end up with savage worlds initiative system.

Steve Jackson’s recently re-published RPG “The Fantasy Trip” got it right more than four decades ago when Steve went with 1d6 Side Initiative while including character abilities that added +1 or +2 to the Initiative Roll. Actions are then taken in DX order by the character’s current adjusted DX. This gave the player who wanted to be the grizzled military veteran a reason to take those Initiative bonus abilities and then roll the Initiative die while role playing as the party leader. Really gives the party leader player a good game mechanic through which the leader’s character can make a solid, valuable contribution while providing the other players a reason to cheer on their leader’s roll/role just as Prof. DM described. May the almighty algorithm be appeased by this comment and grant a critical success to this video!

Steve Jackson's Melee from the late '70s (which became the combat system for The Fantasy Trip) has a D6 roll-off for Initiative every round (groups who don't have a leader get a -1 penalty to the roll, and if the leader of a group has the talent Tactics they get a +1). The winner (the leader of the group who rolled the die) decides which side MOVES first. After movement actions (attacks and spells) are done in adjusted Dexterity order from highest to lowest (roll-off ties).

We're a newbie group and this made the game definitely more fun for us! Thank you very much for this tip!

I am trying static initiative - based on Dex scores and not 10 + modifier, in my campaign right now. Speeds up play in the VTT world SO much - especially on massive maps with many combats!

I achieved some of the benefits you seek by rolling one initiative for all of my DM run creatures other than BBEGs or important NPCs they get their own. It speeds things up and as I digitally track initiative the whole process is made more streamlined. D6 group initiative every round sounds fun and I will 100% try that out in some oneshots.

@eternalwatcher3628

2 жыл бұрын

wouldnt that mean that all of your minions just all attack and once and just annihilate one player?

@wuzillah

2 жыл бұрын

@@eternalwatcher3628 No. That would make me a piece of shit DM who expects his players not to metagame yet does it himself. Being a good DM means running your monsters and NPCs as they should be, with their goals, motivations, ethics and morals all taken into account. There's a great book about just that called "the monsters know what they're doing", check it out.

I have been using a slight variant of your 'no initiative' rule. Its actually been going well as I just ask everyone what they want to do and whomever decides first gets to more or less act first. It keeps things moving and anyone stuck thinking can actually just sit around and think. Literally had some players just not do anything mostly due to indecision. Hesitation in battle is a real thing and while right now it doesn't hurt them, it will be something they will have to deal with when the enemies are able to kill their bigger damage dealers. ^-^ And as of yet haven't had any real complaints about it, so may stick with this.

@meowfulsoul2450

3 жыл бұрын

@@Psuedo-Nim Funny you say this given the ones that have a lot of options are often the players that are going first because they have figured out what they wanted to do from the previous round. And its not like I don't go around and ask what they want to do after a certain point. The barbarian of the group, who is a literal one trick pony, often goes last with just a constant string of beat downs. And its not like real life given if it were, they'd literally only have six seconds to decide and that's not a whole lot of time when carnage is going on around you. Not to mention some of the 'missed' rounds is player choice for RP flair because some of the characters are still new to battle itself. So go ahead and think what you desire, but the players at my table haven't complained about it given they don't have to constantly roll initiative with every battle and their 'punishments' are often self inflicted given I always ask when they are the last ones. Which as of right now, is always the barbarian. So instead of assuming things, maybe next time ask how it goes down at my table.

That is a good video. I remember playing basic D&D and using the group d6 initiative. I have my players declare a marching order so whoever is in the front and back do their respective perception checks. If an anomaly is detected then an investigation check can be used to determined whether the anomaly is a trap, a secret door, a point of interest, or a red herring. I have considered using this marching order as the group's initiative order since it makes sense to let the first person go first and if they are attacked from behind then just reverse the order. The marching order can be changed at any time out of combat but in combat you are fixed to that order. Perception can spot hidden creatures automatically and if successful then initiative starts but if unsuccessful then the party is surprised so there is incentive to rotate the order based on strategy since a cleric is typically best to spot anomalies but the wizard is typically best to determine what the anomaly is and a rouge to remove traps or pick locks or scout ahead or generally do stealthy things. This makes good use of each characters skill sets and allows for pre-planned strategies at least in theory but in practice the barbarian just drives through the traps and smashes down the door which works until they get themselves killed and then realizes while laying in a pool of their own blood that it probably was not the smartest thing to do. I should add when a room is encountered then in marching order they can decide what to do so the first person declaring they search for treasure means they trigger any traps so being first is not always the best.

The original D&D used chainmail rules for initiative. Other suggestions for initiative were released in the supplement Eldritch Wizardry. In BECMI I use individual initiative. Group initiative becomes to one-sided, and with individual initiative you can cause a spell caster to drop their spell.

The idea for initiative I got from watching this video is rolling d20 vs d20 - highest gets to go first. When it's the players' turn they get to decide who acts first and that character takes their action. Then we switch sides and the GM picks one character to act. Once the side with the least characters is done the side with characters who hasn't acted yet gets to take actions for any character until all characters have acted in that round of initiative. Then you start at the top again rinse repeat.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Sounds cool to me!

@tiggerdyret

Жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Damn edited it and lost the heart 😂 Now doing initiative this way might take longer, but I also think people would get more invested in the combat, since there need to be a group discussion on who goes first, which would then lead to a tactical discussion for better or for worse. Taking longer might not be so bad, if it's means you're engaged instead of just waiting your turn. Will have to try out your methods and this one the next time I play DnD :)

I JUST started using your old init video haha. Now here you are with a new one. We used the "Everyone rolls at the same time" This works REALLY well with VTTs. In one game I DM the players narrate their own actions, they see each others dice in the chat and its easy to "everyone roll, narrate in order!" I just jump in as the DM to narrate the monster actions. In another game of mine I narrate, also WAY easier using the "everyone roll" its easy for me to see and I can narrate a round in that "6 sec" window, time flies and I can give them cool images of their players. Me narrating REALLY lends itself when a player misses, instead of saying "oh I guess I missed" I can talk about how the enemy countered or deflected thier attack. LOVE YOU VIDS

Can confirm: d6 group initiative works EXTREMELY well. Thanks Professor!

DeathBringer and his apprentice, Prof DM, always give us good content. I used to use individual initiative, with weapon speeds, casting times, dex mods, etc. A nice simulation of speed, but it takes a while. Since we changed to zoom gaming during the pandemic, I instead use a simple d6 for each side,, with revolts for ties. It works great, and goes fast.

@tubebobwil

3 жыл бұрын

Your players are hardcore if they (checks ProfessorPipe's comment...) *Revolt* on every tie!

@professorpipe3270

3 жыл бұрын

@@tubebobwil ahh, the joys of auto correct! Turns a reroll into a revolt!

@tubebobwil

3 жыл бұрын

@@professorpipe3270 what a re-rolling development!

Dan, thanks for revisiting this. I've never been worried about speed. Not being a fan of the WotC editions and their ponderous and very, very slow combat systems, speed was never a worry for me. I always preferred to have the players roll individual initiative each round. It added very little time to combat, and gave combat an even more unpredictable feel than rolling as a group each round.

Well done prof DM I totally agree with you , in fact I'm starting a Basic Fantasy rpg game in a couple of weeks and I'm going to do initiative exactly like this I even have the load bows going first I call it the Morgan Ironwolf rule . Keep up the good work

@tubebobwil

3 жыл бұрын

Awesome name for it!

That’s good advice. This works for me: all players roll d20 no modifiers. I roll a d20 for monsters no modifiers. Higher goes first and we go in clockwise order for the entire combat. It works great! From now on I’ll roll first to give them a number to beat! Combat goes really well in my game and this is a simple way to do it.

I'm designing my own rules and here's what I've got. Characters get multiple "steps" and "wields" per round depending on attributes and modifiers (strength divided by heft is wields per round). Use poker cards for initiative. Each player gets dealt a random red card for each step and a random black card for each wield. They have these little hands of cards that they can play to claim next action. Each puts down a card face down, then all turn at once. High card is "fastest" and takes that action, turning in the card. Others recover their cards. Whoever had low card is "slowest" and all NPC that can attack that character do so. Then all NPCs move one step if they have any left. Rinse wash repeat. If NPCs have any remaining wields or steps after all players have turned in all their cards then the DM just runs the table until all that is gone.

I use the Low Fantasy Gaming initiative, the players roll at the top of every round. I keep a piece of paper with their names on it. If the players roll 10 or higher they get a plus on my list, if they are lower than 10 they get a minus on my list. If they get above a 20 I write a ++. Then ++'s go, then boss monsters, then +'s go, then normal monsters, last up are -'s. Then I can count the number of +or- columns if I lose track of how many turns have happened at the table. I stay in initiative order even outside of combat. I also use a lot of game timers for events so this helps keep things moving. Last game the players were in a Littoral Cave fighting drauger and the tides were rising while they were in there. Which lead to a sense of urgency.

One of my best player experiences was with dynamic group initiative using a d20+ init from a nominated "party leader." I rolled a 19 in the open, told them to beat a 19, then they hit 20. Big cheer! Flip side of that coin: when playing with random strangers online, I have had the opposite experience that led to hurt feelings. "My rogue has a +3 and I didn't even get to roll!" "they took 2 turns in a row" etc

In theory I love it. In practice I've ended up with too many back-to-back turns which just end the combat for whatever side has it. I find there is little to no adjusting to the tactics of the other side if they just get to go twice.

@richmcgee434

3 жыл бұрын

You're going to want to avoid ever playing the Age of Sigmar minis game, then. The game regards the utter brutality of back-to-back turns as a feature rather than a bug.

@ChonkyTatzelwurm

3 жыл бұрын

@@richmcgee434 *Laughs in double turn* I do find it interesting, though, that AoS games are hard to read just by the boardstate at endgame. A player can get utterly crushed but as long as they can keep a single guy on the table, scoring might say they win.

@aaronhumphrey3514

2 жыл бұрын

No to mention that one side or the other getting to all go first can drastically swing fights all on its own.

I was thinking of using a "before and after method" you would roll a d20 for all the fodder and a 20 for all the elites and a 20 for the BBEG/mini Boss. So you roll between 1 to 3 dice. The players then roll. Their result will determine if the go before or after a group. Example the fodder rolls a 12. If you roll higher than a 12 you go before them, if roll lower you go after. If there is a boss that rolls a 7 and an elite that rolls 15. If you roll higher than 15 you are in the group that goes 1st, if you roll less than 7 you go after, if you are between 8 and 14 you go between them.

The venerable British RPG 'Dragon Warriors' did something similar to the 'Dexterity-as-Initiative rating' in it's combat system - Characters would act in descending order of their Reflexes Stat (the game's analogue of Dexterity), with the only roll being made was the 3d6 to determine the effective Reflexes of the enemy (unless the scenario already supplied one, or they were an NPC that already had a Reflexes score) for the entire combat; I used to hate it when I was younger (when my Reflexes 12 Knight always was stuck behind the Reflexes 17 Assassin, the Reflexes 15 Barbarian and the Reflexes 14 Mystic), but I can certainly appreciate now how much faster combat would pass back then vs the speed of some of the multi-round battles I've encountered in later games like Shadowrun, Werewolf, etc.... not that a fixed or Group d6 Initiative would work in those types of games, but it does show how much of an effect Initiative really does have in dictating the pacing the game/flow of combat.

Group Initiative is a good way of doing it. When I GM Treasure Hunters I do Group Initiative for the monsters and Individual Initiative for the players. If I am playing a character as GM, I roll Individual Initiative for my character as well. Special NPCs also get Individual Initiative. In Treasure Hunters a D12 is used for initiative to give it more use in the game. A trade-off for combat taking a little longer is that you can have a spell or magic item bonus or penalty to initiative. Interestingly, the D12 is aesthetically pleasing because it fits the 12 Hour Clock.

I have been a big fan of your insights for years. I was inspired by your initiative videos to create my own indie TTRPG that has a simultaneous combat rounds system

I love the BX (OSE) d6 group initiative. I also like the BX order for actions in combat. 3. Winning side acts: 1. Morale 2. Movement 3. Missile attacks 4. Spell casting 5. Melee attacks I also like that in B/X and OSE turns are 10 seconds not six.

@tubebobwil

3 жыл бұрын

You could have gone all "M's" there, lol... Morale, Movement, Middle, Magic, Melee...

@MatthewFenn1517

3 жыл бұрын

@@tubebobwil first rule of good writing? Always alliterate.

I'm starting to only roll for initiative when there's an obvious conflict as to who could go first. For scenarios/encounters where the party would obviously have surprise, there's no need to roll.

Instead of the standard individual initiative we used the following two versions at our store: 1. Every one rolls initiative but instead of building your order, it was simply beginning with the winner the order went the shortest way towards the GM. In case of having the same amount of players between the winner and the GM, the winner decided which way it went on. 2. Again initiative rolled as normal. But the winner decides who actually goes first, it could be himself or anyone else, including the monsters. After the turn the player/GM decides who's next. The last player/monster begins the next round. While it allowed great tactical play I found the 2nd method needed too much tracking of who already had its turn who didn't, especially when it came to reactions.

I run 5e and play in a homebrew Battletech game. In that system we use a 2d6 based initiative (as that whole system is 2d6), but the rub here is that they break movement and combat phase, so the winner of initiative moves second, but attacks first. So there is a little less of a blow to losing initiative because you get tactical advantage.

I've always been a fan of the group initiative rule for Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2E. Each combat a new player rolls 1d10 and then each player calculates their weapon speed/spell speed and initiative bonuses/minuses. The dungeon master does the same for the foes of the players and then the DM just either calls out initiative 4 or 5 etc or put some indicator on the screen so the players can see whose turn it is and go from there. Requires two die rolls and that is all she wrote.

I do side initiative, ties goes to the players. If one player has the Alert feat, the group adds one to the d20 roll. Two players would add two and so on. It is fast and fun. And beating the DM when he rolls a 19 makes players cheer and jump up their chair. And I play with people going from 36 to 51... The kid in us is never very far.

Right Now I am running City of Mist and I am really digging the way the combat runs in it. Combat begins. Players discuss strategy and go in any order they want. Enemies, called Dangers, don't normally get their own actions... they pretty much ONLY go when a Player fails a roll. If players keep rocking out successes they just dominate the enemies with momentum. As soon as a player blows a roll the enemies react to that failure and something puts the character that failed at what they want to do in danger. Powerful enemies have reactive abilities that are structured like "If you attack this enemy with x then you suffer y" so it becomes kind of a little puzzle to crack. Like "As you thrust your blade into the flaming skeleton the fire creeps up the weapon to your flesh and you are burned!" I thought I would hate it, but I'm acually really digging it. It makes combat super fast because enemies don't roll initiative. It's still a little swingy, but the system favors the players in easy fights and the enemies in hard fights. Also, it sort of scales itself if players can't make it to the game or if there is a guest, because enemies almost always only attack on player turns, so fewer players gives them fewer potential actions. Adding players makes the fight more dangerous, and taking players away makes the fight less dangerous.

The Holmes "red book" used Dex order with a d6 roll when ties crop up. I've traditionally used Moldvay's group d6 initiative with the "Holmes Rule" coming into play when individual initiative is narratively appropriate.

After watching this video I switched to the d6 group initiative. I had all of them rolling then divided by the three of them. To minimize how much everyone was going at the same time we switched to a D12. It's the dice that's never used anyway so now we're using it. Thanks professor, great video.

What I love about you Professor, is your willingness to change your mind when you find a game mechanic that works better for you & your groups.

I like your approach to raising the "fun-o-meter" Haha!

So glad you've made a video about this. I had just started using d6 group initiative a few weeks ago and came to the same conclusion. Rather than rolling for both sides, I just used a single d6 roll. If you roll high (4-6) players go first, if you roll low (1-3) enemies go first. Reroll initiative every round. Combat is so much faster and ebbs and flows in much more interesting ways

Another great video. Thanks PDM! I’ve been using d6 initiative for many years. I’m going to try group initiative for my next session.

Love the videos, I love seeing how other DMs run their games, helps me achieve the Rule of Fun

I think for 5e specifically it might make sense to just have both sides roll their initiative and whichever side has the highest goes first. This way classes/subclasses/races with initiative bonuses are still relevant. And its easier to modify the general rule than each specific instance of a bonus. Or even just a roll-off between the two creatures with the highest bonus on each side, and their allies can aid them where applicable. Like the barbarian with advantage on initiative can lend that advantage to the alert gloomstalker with a +12 bonus, bard can give inspiration, etc. If only one person from each is rolling you might also reroll every round to simulate an ebb and flow to the tempo of combat. Though perhaps getting "timewalked" when one side takes two turns in a row might be too brutal.

Funnily enough I just started d6 group (was group initiative where one player would roll d20 plus dex) last weekend. I like it because it takes the "which character rolls initiative" question out and it is the same dice as the surprise dice, so I can have a player (the one in front) roll d6 twice vs my two d6 rolls and determine who is suprised and who goes first in 20 seconds.

We should get him a +2 vest of protection for his B-day.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

3 жыл бұрын

I will wear my +2 vest of protection in an upcoming video. Either "Get Rid of Session Zero" or "DMs are NOT Storytellers."

@kid9893

3 жыл бұрын

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 DMs are NOT story tellers? Man that video is going to have some spicy comments. I am looking forward to that lecture professor!

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

3 жыл бұрын

@@kid9893 Let’s hope so. I need views!

My favorite initiative system I've used was in a game of Lancer--you alternate Player Turn/Foe Turn, with the party collectively picking which player goes during each turn (and by extension the GM picking which enemy goes each turn as well), until everyone has had one turn that round. So Round 1 might be Alice/Orc 1/Bob/Orc 2/Charlie/Orc 3/Orc 4, but Round 2 might be Charlie/Orc 4/Bob/Orc 1/Alice/Orc 3/Orc 2.

This is an initiative method I USED to use in pre 5E. I am inclined to try this again. Well done, sir.

I have used your system for initiave, and it does work great. My only change (for me that is), if i have more than 5 players, i separate into smaller groups. I sometimes have 8 players and i would separate them into groups of 4 (same goes for enemies, except if boss battles are involved thats different) with a minimum group of 3 per team for initiative. It works nicely. For bog boss battles, i do seperate initiatives.

DEATHBRINGER AGAIN: THE REASON I HAVE SO MUCH HATRED FOR THAT FOOL PROFESSOR DM IS BECAUSE HE PUT ME ON A HEXAGON BASE.

We use a d10, lowest goes. The 2 character most likely to act first roll for their team (the guys up front negotiating, or whatever). With modifiers for circumstance of course. I play wheelhouse rpg, the d10 is significant for other things as well.

I adapted some of your ideas to create my own simplified rules. I'm currently playtesting a group initiative system. I set a target number based on the situation (was the party ambushed, were the enemies ambushed, did they stumble upon each other, etc). One player rolls a d20 with no modifier. If the roll is a success, the players get to take a turn, but turns alternate. During a player turn, one player gets to act, whoever wants to who hasn't acted yet that round, then an enemy gets to act. If one side outnumbers the other, multiple characters act. Next round, a player rolls initiative again (I make a different player roll each round) and I adjust the target number based on the new situation (is one side outnumbered, did one side suffer a lot of damage, is an enemy leader KOed, is a player KOed). If an initiative roll is a nat 20, I give the players a bonus. Perhaps at the end of the round, I allow any player to take an extra turn. If an initiative roll is a nat 1, I give the enemies a bonus. This accomplishes a few things. One, it keeps combat somewhat chaotic, since the players can never be sure if they will go first or not. Two, if the entire party were to act at the same time, then winning initiative means they all get to do something before any enemy does, potentially eliminating multiple enemies, so doing it this way forces them to decide on which action they feel is most important and really want to be sure goes before the enemy. Also, in my current campaign, our longest fight has only lasted 5 or 6 rounds. Most fights are over in 2 or 3. My goal when designing encounters is to design them to be over quickly. We've been able to go through nearly twice as much material as we would have in my traditional 3.5 games.

Interesting idea. I think I'll try the D6 initiative each round out. What I'm doing right now is D6 at the start of combat, rolled by one of the player. 1-3 DM goes first, 4-6 players go first. Then I just point at someone and ask: "What do you want to do?" Handle that players turn, and then he gets to point out who goes next. Until everyone had his turn. This way the group can do a bit of tactic. Got the Idea from Death in Space, where it was called "popcorn initiative" I think I can combine the two methods.

I am so glad that you showed us how you made that wall. This whole time, I thought you were using a green screen with a shot of your tower.

I currently use d6 group initiative. One roll per side per encounter. This allows me to focus less on "Who's On First?" and more on narrating the action. I'm intrigued by the "rolling initiative each round" and may have to try it. Another great video, PDM!

I have essentially a 2 group initiative. The two groups are Before Enemies and After Enemies. Initiative is a set target number check, based on the highest enemy initiative bonus. Everyone that passed goes Before Enemies. A crit means you go very first with Advantage. Then Enemies go. If you failed the check or didn't respond quickly enough when I ask, you go After Enemies. A crit fail means you go dead last with Disadvantage (something came up that is hindering you in combat like catching your cloak on a spike, etc.) The checks are rolled at the top of each round. This method is super fast and easy to track. I make a check mark for people who passed, double check marks for crits. I make an X for people who failed and double XX for those who crit failed. As I resolve a players turn, I erase the mark (I laminated a page with all the PCs names and I use a dry erase marker). One benefit of this system is it is fast, but also lets PCs benefit from abilities that boost their Initiative or ensure they have to contend with effects that penalize their Initiative, too.

Our group does the AD&D/d6, high roll goes first initiative. However, we do not do a group initiative, and do not declare actions before rolling that initiative, and this is why. (In my book, anyway; I cannot speak for my fellow DMs.) Each segment of a d6 initiative is 10 seconds. I can pull a punch in 10 seconds. I can change my mind on performing an action after observing someone else's action in 10 seconds. And I can well imagine an experienced adventurer with a higher than average dexterity could do that FAR better than I could. And that is with just being 1 segment after someone; if I roll a 1 and a party member rolled a 6, I have almost a full minute to decide what to do, after a lot of actions are made before me.

thank you for pointing out that this leads to better team work. it is faster and much simpler to manage. Ironclaw uses group ini, every roll their ini dice once at the start to see how well on guard they are. you roll 2 dice and look for 4 or higher. 0 dice you loose 1 action on the first round, 1 dice you get your normal actions, 2 dice you get an extra action. this can be easy to add to d&d. Roll a d20 and of you get over a certain value instant inspiration.

I'm running my first game of Old School Essentials this weekend. You convinced me of giving group initiative a try instead of using the optional individual initiative.

Occam’s razor absolutely misused

I love you man. Rolling Initiative is too complicated with 2 steps...Here is my way simpler 5-step process.

In our game last night we tried Group Initiative and the Chaos of Battle was Bliss. For the random encounter there was only 1 opponent to the 4 PCs but the “baddie” got to go twice which increased the stress. So much fun.

My group and I have been playing together for over 30yrs. We’ve settled on the group initiative d20 where a group modifier is calculated from the average Dex reaction bonus with fractions rounding up. This way high Dex is rewarded and small groups or solo adventurers enjoy even more of a bonus.

Thanks for sharing your 1D6 initiative! The roll to beat each round is much more exciting for the DM and the players!

I usually roll enemy initiative before the session during prep time. Speeds it up pretty fast. Group initiative might no be for me it seems to make characters who rely on high initiative a bit useless. The RPG system Anima takes it to an extreme every turn every character rolls initiative but there were, I didn't mind it as it had a cool way for high intiative to get 'surprise' (I think surprise was +20 to attack and maybe - 30 to the enemy defence roll it was a d100 system based on opposed rolls) I built my character like that and he was Adrassil slaughterer of mooks and heavily armoured bosses since 2013 lol

Cogent RPG uses the Reflex attribute to determine initiative so you can do the table order option you described. I like that because it allows the group to build a teamwork combat "playbook" where they know who will attack first and who is in support. Random initiative players often lose track of who goes before and after them leading to wasted actions. Unless one side prepares an ambush, I prefer a set order. I often incorporate magic surprises, simultaneous attacks and/or martial arts defend/attack combos into combat, so I don't need to change the order to spice things up. And once players see what I'm doing they don't really need initiative either.

I don’t know why but when you mentioned Occam’s Razor, it got me thinking about what an effective AI DM would need… Not just in terms of raw information, but how to give the impression of experience and authority from the start. I think the best AI DM would have to necessarily be one that’s had a great deal of time to learn from a group of players, but from a marketing standpoint it would be hard to sell one on that premise… it’s a real Catch-22 Who would’ve guessed it would be exceedingly difficult replacing all that hard earned experience real DM’s have gained and translating it into something like game settings that WotC can turn loose in their garden. Something technically impressive on that front could buy them some good will, I just don’t know if even the most advanced AI in the world is anywhere near that level of sophistication.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

I don't think so. Not yet.

I love this. I'm definitely going to give this a shot. Thank you!

I loved your first initiative video. This one was informative too

PDM I loved this! I have players roll initiative and then I choose which monsters are attacking them. Monsters have static initiative. If they’re within 10 feet of each other they can choose the better or worse roll. The key is- I resolve the monsters based on the PCs turn so it feels a lot like an action movie with the camera moving between skirmishes.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

I love you loving it!

I've kind of wondered how unit activation (used in Battletech and other wargames) would work in an RPG. Basically each side takes a turn. The side with the greatest number of units takes the first turn. They activate a number of units based on the ratio of units. If they have twice as many units, they activate two units, three times as many means you activate three units, etc. The side with fewer units then activates one unit. When it goes back to the other side, they look only at the number of units that haven't been activated yet. If the number of combatants is equal at the start of a turn, you could roll a die to determine who goes first. For example: 4 PC's encounter 7 skeletons. The skeletons go first, but only activate one unit because they don't have twice as many units as the PC's. Then one player goes. Now that there are 6 skeletons remaining and 3 PC's, the skeletons activate 2 units, then players activate one. And so on until all units have gone. At the beginning of the second turn, you start from the top. If there are only 3 skeletons and 4 players left, the players would activate a unit first on the second turn. This sort of system would eliminate the need for initiative rolls and also avoid the big swings of having an entire side go first, or last, or twice in a row. The only downside is that it's a bit static and most of the time the monsters are going to go first. But there might be a way to incorporate surprise or initiative in different ways to make it a bit richer and dynamic system.

I’ve started to use single group checks for random encounters/wandering monsters to substitute low level combat for higher level characters. It really keeps the world alive without stopping all the time for initiative. I got this from parts and pieces of PDMs advice. I can’t remember the video, but he jokingly said have players roll a d6, 4-6 they win, 1-3 they still win, just not as good. I have my players roll a d20 group check against the baddies’ AC, if they fail, they take 1hit of average damage per player. It’s really good for interrupting rests and reminding the players they can’t just sleep 8 hours in the middle of dungeon.

I think there is one major flaw in the d6 initiative system - What happens to classes and subclasses that gets bonuses to initiative? Dex gains quite a bit of potency as a stat because it increases initiative, classes like barbarian get advantage on initiative, subclasses such as war wizard, swashbuckler rogue, gloomstalker, etc. get another stat bonus added to initiative. These class features, and the respective balance of a core stat to the game, get nerfed or nullified severely with the base d6 system. You can make some accommodation, such as letting the character with the highest initiative go 'first' out of his team when it's their turn, but initiative as a whole is important in 5e because it means A. you get the drop (which is very important for rogues or surprise characters like bugbears) and choose the positioning of the battle. And B. Because high initiative rolls are often the difference between getting an extra turn in combat or not. With a d6 system, many characters who have these bonuses or rely on getting the drop may lose out to chance or worse see no benefit to the investment of certain subclass or class abilities. I will pitch the d6 system to my DM and test it, as is fair. I just don't think the d6 system works flush with D&D5e, it's not a perfect fit that will need quite a bit of tinkering to balance out the numbers it 'trims' away.

@jackmalin2528

3 жыл бұрын

They simply dont get the bonus, not a deal breaker :)

Good points. It's also even more of a pain in online play. It also makes sense that abilities like the Alert feat could be far more beneficial to the party than just swinging their sword or casting Healing Word first.

@topomusicale5580

3 жыл бұрын

I guess that depends on what online tools you are using.. In our games everyone enters a command to join initiative and the system produces the ordered list and walks through the round in the right order. The time is minimal and there is no onus on the DM to keep track of who is next. Definitely faster than rolling a d6 each round.

I go a step further and use the rules in Combat & Tactics. Love it!

I used a somewhat more simplified D6 initiative; rather than every round, it's at the beginning of combat. Ties get rerolled. It cut combat time by 75%, and my players loved it.

Such great content and presentation. Another awesome and thought provoking video