As an experiment, I used Matt’s idea in my campaign. I gave the party a quest card for each of the big long term quests and I gave a few of the players a card for something personal to them that had come up recently. I was amazed to find that the players instantly latched onto the cards. The players switched from, “what quest do you have for us this week, Mr. DM?” And became, “We need to stop the northern forest hobgoblins from raiding nearby settlements, so the Duke signs his roadside tavern over to us, which we can use as a base of operations in the north!”

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

2 жыл бұрын

Coleville is good.

@kfauzi109

Жыл бұрын

what video is that??

@krim7

Жыл бұрын

@@kfauzi109 Toward Better Rewards | Running the Game kzread.info/dash/bejne/rKuks9l8h8fOfJs.html

@jasonGamesMaster

Жыл бұрын

I have no idea where I picked it up from, now, but I've been using Goals and Motivations as xp determinations for more than 10 years. Pathfinder 1e, World of Darkness, Shadowrun, seriously everything where it makes any possible sense for the system (not really Traveller or RuneQuest). Just written on the sheet, at the top. If you act within your motivations that session, you get xp. If you accomplish your goal, more xp and you figure out a new goal. Works like a charm Then again, my two core players really ARE drawn in by heroic (in the modern sense) characters, and being able to help people IS their power fantasy, so gold=xp AND monster slaying for xp were both non-starters for us from the beginning

@kontrarien5721

2 ай бұрын

You have not one but *two* players who *like* playing the hero? Must be nice! I've yet to meet a single player who isn't running a scumbag. I have faint hope though, as I have a few new players who haven't been tested.

"They just sit around waiting for the adventure to happen." Just like I just sit around waiting for you to drop videos! Perfectly understandable.

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I appreciate that. I just shot & cut two in three days. More on the way.

@harrison3207

2 жыл бұрын

@@Xingmey Yeah I ended up listening to the first part at 1.5 speed.

Concerning gold for xp, we make it gold SPENT rather than earned. And it has to be spent in a manner that makes sense. So a fighter on their down time spends X gold training with a master swordsman, a wizard spends down time in a library researching esoteric knowledge. Each costs gp that can be converted into xp and created opportunities for what to do during down time and…plot hooks potentially.

@mediocremodeler5174

2 жыл бұрын

We have a limit too. You can only gain up to 25% total xp required to level and you can never get to within 10% of what’s needed to level. That way you can’t train your way to a level up, you gotta put that practice into practical application. Of course we also use it as a means to acquire new skills, deeds, spells etc.

@sumdude4281

2 жыл бұрын

Ooooooh I like this!

@whatareyoudoingyouidiot342

2 жыл бұрын

@@mediocremodeler5174 Holy shit, that's BRILLIANT!

@neverforged

2 жыл бұрын

@@whatareyoudoingyouidiot342 see my comment (above?) basically, yes, and allow people to spend money on hookers and blow.

@Marshcreekmini

2 жыл бұрын

@@mediocremodeler5174 So if you need 2k XP to level, you can only spend 500gp to get your next? I like your idea, but I'd need some more info.

This is a GREAT idea to keep players fully engaged. Confusion = indecision. DMs often complian about player engagement but if goals are unclear then usually the only thing clear and engaging becomes combat.

@elgatochurro

7 ай бұрын

But if my campaign is a legit "what do YOU want to do" sandbox... Then it's legit in the players hands Though I'm going to be even more hands on this time, start then off with a villain holding a whole town hostage level 1

I think it comes down to what you and your table wants to do. Reward the behavior you want to encourage. Do you want a game where you kill monsters and loot? Use the gp=exp method. Do you want character development and story progression? Use the individual goal method. Do you want story/narrative progression? Try milestone. Do you just want to hang out and play a casual game with friends? Level up every 4 sessions or so regardless of what they actually do in game. You and your table will probably find some sort of mix between these that works for everyone.

@Atariese

2 жыл бұрын

I was about to say it, but you said it better! Honestly i make it a point to tell my players what they did that session to earn xp. Usually good role-playing and "creatively dealing with an encounter." That's what i want in my game, and the players want it too after realizing that is what i'm looking for.

I like the gold for XP formula, but I tweak it slightly. Only the gold spent "carousing" goes toward XP earned. This has a few advantages: 1) It prevents gold bloat since the gold is spent on entertainment. 2) It makes shopping in game a bit more tactical since magic items for sale in town are EXPENSIVE and the players end up having to decide if they'd rather get a nifty new sword, or maybe level up. 3) And finally, it encourages the players at the end of a session to make up a great story about how they spent their gold. Was it wine, women and song, or maybe gambling at the race track, or perhaps they gave the gold away to a worthy cause while drunk. In any case it makes for possible plot hooks and fun character roleplay.

@irontemplar6222

2 жыл бұрын

God I would hate that. I'm sorry but I would rather spend my money on a house, castle, or donate it to an orphange.

@samdoorley6101

2 жыл бұрын

@@irontemplar6222 I mean, those are all perfectly reasonable options. Look, these tweaks clearly aren't for for everyone. I like my players poor, motivated, and profligate with their earnings. I've always felt like most adventurers are wastrels, and degenerates that fell into the profession due to having NO other usable skills. I mean, come on, if you could make a fortune safely (tavern owner; scribe, blacksmith, what have you) the vast majority of people would opt for the sensible route. Wanna run an orphanage or be a guildsman, or maybe a temple-bound priest, those are all great options. I'm sure you could have a lot of fun with those scenarios, they just don't fit my style.

@irontemplar6222

2 жыл бұрын

@@samdoorley6101 you would like the conna. System. It makes it mandatory that half of the treasure recoved is spent in a blur of corosing. That said I still don't think you should toe leveling up yo carosing because how are you going to explain a monk, Cleric or paladin type character. They can carose, but that very aginst type for them. Or if the players want to RP some people who simply aren't into that. That was really my point with my comment.

@samdoorley6101

2 жыл бұрын

@@irontemplar6222 I'll check that system out, thanks!

@padalan2504

2 жыл бұрын

Requiring the players to spend the gold to turn it into exp explains why all the rich people in dnd have high levels not doing much.

PDM and Deathbringer, making the work day not suck so hard with a lunchtime upload. ♥️

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

2 жыл бұрын

Another one is coming at noon tomorrow.

I run theme park campaigns and literally give players Quest cards when they encounter plot hooks during the narrative. Each completed Quest is worth a "level up". I typically keep 3 Quest cards in their hands and expire old ones to keep the options fresh. Quests tend to take 3-5 sessions.

@xiuyoalli

2 жыл бұрын

that sounds awesome i will try it

@PhyreI3ird

2 жыл бұрын

That idea is giving me Fable: The Lost Chapters vibes. I'm a total immersion freak so that kind of thing being an "in-game" item too would be so delightful to me

In my experience, if someone is going to miss a session, then whether or not they'll receive XP isn't going to influence their attendance. If anything, falling behind can create a vicious cycle that leads to an eventually drop.

Interesting points as always Professor. I run a hybrid version of XP and milestones in my games. I award XP as the rules state in 5E which is adding up the monster's XP then dividing it evenly among the players. I also award XP through milestones. For example, I'll say good job everyone, you cleared out the mine, that's an extra 1,000 XP for everyone. If the players found a clever way to clear out the mine, I'll award them double the XP and congratulate them. This makes the players feel like their Choices matter. I'm fond of this approach because even the small random encounters on the road feel important since the players are still getting small amounts of XP. But, this allows me to push the players to the story points because the players know they will level up faster if they follow the story.

@danielrowan4716

2 жыл бұрын

James this is almost exactly what I do in my campaign. I reward creativity and cleverness for out of the box solutions. Granted my group still enjoys a good hack and slash. I also award a significant bonus for TPS (Total Party Survival). If everyone lives and returns to the safe zone they all get a +5000xp. If one dies it’s +3000xp each, if 2 die it’s +1000xp, …. This heavily encourages cooperation. The amounts can be adjusted to suit level, difficult / challenge rating of the adventure scenario, or whatever.

@samuelbroad11

2 жыл бұрын

we do this too, works fine.

I love the idea of 1 xp per sp then dividing the treasure by 10, as well. I am not sure why I never thought of that?! "Gold-bloat" was always an issue, usually leading folks to completely ignore "lesser denominations".

For adventures with a message board or work-for-hire listing, I assign a value to each quest or job. Each task value is usually one-quarter or one-half level. I don’t tell the players. I just keep track of it. And if a player misses a session, they don’t get the XP. Through NPC’s I try to encourage what tasks they could handle and which ones would kill them quickly. Sometimes they listen. Sometimes they don’t. As always, great video. Very thought provoking.

I loved that you showed the old XP tables from the older editions. I remember seeing them but I never used them because it took too long; instead I "spitballed" a lot of these calculations based on what I felt was expected and what was deserved. However, for larger modules I would do calculations if I knew it would be helpful. You are absolutely right that the old way was very cumbersome but that it really did feed into the "gold for glory" mentality. Thanks for sharing!

Bilbo lived mostly with Farmers -- so he needed the silver coins to more easily make change. Not everyone can break a Dwarven Gold Piece. :)

Another banger video, PDM. I always love when you give specific table/game tips. Keep them coming!!!

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

2 жыл бұрын

More on the way. You’ll like them.

Great topic. I just ran a poll about preferred methods for level advancement and milestone was the clear favorite. It’s the easiest for DMs, and it allows rewards for however characters solve encounters. I think I’m going to try gold-XP in my next campaign, but tying a party level to each PC’s main goal is an exciting idea!

@bjhale

2 жыл бұрын

I saw your poll, but I think the comments indicated that a lot of people used a very specific milestone system or some kind of hybrid. I bet if you had included an "It's complicated" option, that might have been the favorite.

I think the combination of Milestone and the way WotC books are written leads to players waiting for the plot to happen. Running sandbox, or God forbid open world, leaves a lot of players feel like there's no direction. The linear, "This is the story" approach makes it very easy for DMs to run and players to play.

@whatareyoudoingyouidiot342

2 жыл бұрын

By contrast, the linear "this is the story" approach can feel like you're railroading the PCs, and if the players feel like they're being led down a linear path they're going to actively try to thwart you (instead of passively trying to thwart you like usual)

@sleepinggiant4062

2 жыл бұрын

@@whatareyoudoingyouidiot342 - railroading is not giving the players published content to face. Railroading is taking away nearly all the players ability to make choices - like telling them how they have to face each encounter instead of letting them choose between diplomacy, combat, avoidance, etc.

@KenSexe67

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly! This is something I rail against; the fact that players are not motivated to "find their own way". It was great to see your succinct description of how the game rules created the player mentality. Thanks for sharing!

@jacknerdlord3244

2 жыл бұрын

Adding sandbox areas can help I think.

@elgatochurro

7 ай бұрын

"no you can't see your brother, you are not supposed to. Go kill the next big monster I summon"

I know this an old video but I love your videos. They make me actually WANT to be a DM and not just feel like I have to to be able to play.

Milestones are too disconnected from anything to be fair or of use to me. What I prefer to use is Renown. Tie Renown to activities and factions or patrons and now your players have to dive into the world to progress. When they gain a certain amount of Renown with a faction or patron, they might even gain special features or bonus appropriate to what the faction does! What do you think? :D

It's uncanny how your thumbnail on this video captured the quintessential gamer.

one of the features of 3e i really liked was the Magic Item Creation Feat, in part because using it required spending xps to create items. expanding xps beyond their basic function made them a kind of currency, and i always thought this could/should be incorporated into more areas of the game for more classes. it also means DMs would prepare more encounters and players would seek out ways to earn more xps than they need just to level up.

@mke3053

2 жыл бұрын

Couldn't agree more. I gave this feat as a bonus to every spellcaster to motivate them to spend xp as they hated this idea, at first. After that they loved to create items and perceived that when all spend xp they stay the same level and the GM (me) couldn't increase the CR that much... It was sooooo Nice!

I really dislike milestone leveling. As a player I've never been given what goal I need to accomplish to get a new level. I don't see progress. Just the GM asking what level we are and then going "oh, you should have leved up 3 sessions ago." Watching a session later does make you realize what you don't hear. I have the same experience as you there. I like different characters get different XP. I do it after the game and players don't know what others get. Mainly to prevent jealousy. Also fully agree for multi-prong approach to XP.

@danielrowan4716

2 жыл бұрын

I feel you here. By making leveling up truly objective based as such, a situation is created whereby completing the necessary task is impossible and thus leveling up is as well. I use milestones very frequently but only as incentives to gaining bonus xp which is tantamount to leveling without being a requirement to do so.

@ZorValachan

2 жыл бұрын

@@danielrowan4716 I agree with XP for accomplishing goals. Requiring milestones to advance, even when the goals are clear just incentives players/characters to skip anything RP, side quests, etc. And go for the "thing" that gives them a level. It can basically become railroading IMO, but by withholding XP instead of saying "you can only do X"

@aaronhumphrey3514

2 жыл бұрын

It’s a perfectly good system for story-driven games with engaged players. It’s not great for other types of games though. Ultimately it’s just a matter of taste.

@nicholascarter9158

2 жыл бұрын

Milestone XP was designed around a mission-based gameplay structure that I don't always see held up by adventure design. A good Milestone XP game is something like Call of Cthulhu or Shadowrun where you have a standard heist/ mystery structure that plays out over and over again.

@aaronhumphrey3514

2 жыл бұрын

@@nicholascarter9158 Huh? Milestone leveling was invented for narrative games with different points in the story are ear-marked for specific levels. Shadowrun and CoC don’t even have character levels.

An excellent video, as always. I used to know a DM who only awarded xp for money spent. So, if you got 10,000 gp in a dungeon you’d be rich but it only became xp as you spent it. It encouraged us to actually use the gold and stopped us from becoming mobile Fort Knox’s. This encourage the building of castles, towers and other exotic project which, in turn, created their own adventures.

Silver being the standard “high end” treasure makes far more sense.

@elgatochurro

7 ай бұрын

I switched up gold, silver and copper to 100 to 1 vs 10 to 1. Makes gold feel valuable and it's far more rare SILVER is the dollar

As for milestone, I play Shadow of the Demon Lord, that book has "Your level is equal to how many adventures they have accomplished/survived" which promotes very fast campaigns, but assumes an episodic style of play where there is assumes to be downtime between most adventures lol. I'd say it's honestly been perfect for how my group paces campaigns, and we've just hit 9th out of 10th level, while most of our 5e campaigns with milestone usually tire out or run out of juice by level 5 or 6. Shorter, but sweeter lol, though if I had to run XP it'd definitely be the system from dungeon world.

I use a blended approach - Specific goals have experience bonuses, so completion of tasks rewards the party and gives an incentive to complete a dungeon We revamped the experience system and "fixed it" so that it looks more like 1st edition (simplified, take the XP per level, multiply by 10 and divide by 2) and that's the XP needed for each level. (Though to be fair we did a fair bit of tweaking to fix the power curve). We use a money and monster XP system taken right from 1st edition with a few tweaks. 1. Money earns XP if it's from the dungeon and campaign proper. Killing a village gets you nothing but notoriety with the law. 2. XP follows the same rules. If you have to burn a village to the ground, the XP is going to come from a task not the individuals. Magic items earn XP (but only because my campaigns are 'magic poor' and there isn't an open market for magic items). Magic shops just seem bonkers to me. To weed out cash, I also use the train for each level, borrowed from 1st edition. Nothing strips out cash faster than university for a PC. TBH, I think Gygax had most of it right, if it's tweaked just a bit to make it more relevant.

Great advice PDM, thank you! 😀👍 Careful where you step!

I'm SO proud to say that my players are unambiguously heroic. They care far less about the combat and more about just saving the day and discovering the story. I'm honestly very spoiled.

Converting your monetary system to the silver standard, decreasing coin weights (1 coin = 1/100 lbs or 4.54 grams) and requiring players to spend earned treasure to train are great ways to fix several problems: 1. Gold being far too common. 2. Wacky price lists. 3. Gold bloat. 4. Ridiculously big coins.

Torchbearer is really great at goal setting and motivating players to contribute.

Wow professor! Doing the heroic thing is what my players want to do. Or, questing adventuring. They know if they shirk me, it's "have fun in the tavern on a Wednesday afternoon" for them. Well, all groups are different.

For anyone wondering: Freakonomics is a great book. I just finished this week actually, and my way of thinking of why things happen the way they do has changed. Not everything is as black and white as I thought it was. I strongly recommend you read it. It’s less than 300 pages

Your nuts and bolts videos are my favorite, been waiting all week!

Always good to relax listening to Prof Dungeon Master during my lunch break

That DC story brings back fond memories! I remember playing in a super hero campaign where one of the players played Batman. He was somewhat lower powered than anyone else(being Batman), that he got frustrated and started running villains over with his Batmobile, since it did the most damage. It was a short lived campaign. Good times! 🤣

I have often used a mesh of Ten Dead Rats/WFRP; let the players set short and long term goals for themselves and for the party as a whole. They need to be realistic and show growth for the group. Short term goals take 1-3 sessions and long term take 4-6. This helps you know what to prep for and look ahead to, as you know what your players want to do and are gunning for far ahead of time.

This is directed at players who have only played 5e D&D. The "Gold Bloat" of the older systems and modules is due to in those systems and days the party would also be able to bring along teams and even armies of NPC's which they had to pay. Also characters could buy and maintain their own personal keeps/forts/castles or build one for scratch... which they would have to pay for along with staffing and maintenance costs. In the BECMI system the C was for Champions box and that is where many of these things were dealt with in Basic BECMI D&D.

The teacher example was flipping awesome...tickled my chaotic neutral side 😂

I like the idea of giving out XP for completing quests and accomplishing goals. It's a great way to incentivize players to engage with the world in that sort of Quest centric playstyle, and it's familiar to players of video games, considering a lot of video games give XP for completing quests.

A few house rules: - XP needed to level up = next lvl *10 - The party gain xp if they fulfill the objectives of the quest. Extra xp is rewarded for completing the quest properly. - PCs gain 1 xp for every critical success or failure (20 or 1) - Thieves gain 1 extra xp for 100 gold they spend. - Fighters gain 1 extra xp for every fight they win or every dangerous physical feat they survive. - Clerics gain 1 extra xp for every character they save (if they are good) or for every 200 gold donated to the church. - Wizards gain 1 extra xp for every item identified, or for 200 gold spent in research/spell components.

I guess without thinking about it, I give out rewards for players figuring things out, finding certain things, using those things. But my players don't know when or if these rewards are coming. I like the surprise factor. My players seem to enjoy finding these rewards as a surprise. I would argue that I've "trained" my players to explore, mess with, and do more than the rote defeat bad guy receive loot cycle. However, I may start to incorporate more explicit missions to the player. I just don't want it to seem too railroady. But I guess the way I phrase the mission can account for that. As always, thanks for all the great ideas and your experienced perspective.

Great thoughts! I have wanted to run an XP for Gold game for a while. Remember to tell your players that gold taken from villagers dosen't count if you don't want them to be straight up murderhobos. I think my ideal system would be a mix of XP for gold and Exploration. Bringing back treasure you find out in the world is the main way to get XP but you get bonus points for actually taking the time to search a hex, or go to a new town, or seek out that rumored dungeon. Oh, and don't forget about carousing, which is the best part of D&D!

Seeing that old DMG cover art peaking out behind the XP table brings back memories!

I have found great successes with the XP system I modified from your previous video. 10 xp to level up, you get 4xp for completing a personal goal each level and that goal is required to level up. I have also had fun using the XP as a resource for custom abilities. Really marrying the XP system with character powers. But recently my favorite innovation has been a gold for healing system. I use the optional long rest rule of long rest is 1 week short rest is 8 hours. It is rare in my games to have a week off and it's usually a calculated sacrifice against one of the games many ticking clocks. By giving the cleric "unlimited" spells but requiring a tithe I find my players are always leveraging keeping their gold or spending it on healing since it's a relatively low magic setting by 4th level were looking at 250 for a spell. It's been cool cause the cleric can use all her abilities not just healing if she pays and everyone can get back in the fight, at a literal cost

I loved the Fantasy Flight Star Wars system which is similar to the note card goals. The player would choose or role motivations from the player hand book and their XP was determined at the end of the session by how closely they followed those motivations. I think this could work really well in DND 5e with a tweak to the Flaws, Ideals, and personality traits the PHB offers for character creation and tracking it to the alignment chart. For rules light you can determine at the end of the session. For rules heavy you can track actions on a Good Evil/lawful chaotic chart where each degree of change is plus or minus experience depending on choices made by the player.

Thanks for this. A veteran DMs running a persistent campaign, it is always good to have more to think about to improve the game.

Thankfully this is a problem I've never had to deal with in any concerning degree. Great video as always, professor.

Your comment about not paying as much attention to players at the end of the table would make a good basis for a future video, I think: My Biggest Weaknesses as a DM.

Prerolling treasure in classic D&D is incredibly important, and a fantastic part of prep. I recently rolled up that a pair of Sea Hags had a Ring of Three Wishes. It raised the question: what would they do with those wishes if they knew what they had? How many would be left? These days, we've got the benefit of donjon ad&d treasure generator. Instant treasure, baby!

@danielrowan4716

2 жыл бұрын

I make good use of donjon. Very easy and saves a ton of time. It’s like a slot machine

@AaronthePedantic

2 жыл бұрын

@@danielrowan4716 The best kind of slot machine. Free do-overs, and makes D&D faster. 😁

Watching this vid and seeing 99.9k subs, open your main channel and see 100k, Congrats!! You deserve way more than that with the quality of your videos

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Hi Prof DM another great video I especially like the idea of 1 xp per sp then dividing the treasure by 10 👍 Thank you for that idea

@michaelwoodbury1788

2 жыл бұрын

I've always preferred the more complicated (and traditional) math of 1 lb of silver = 1 gp, 20 sp/lb. Also, 12 gp/lb, and 20 cp/lb for weight calculations. Throw in some electrum for flavor, it all just adds to the fantasy.

I use milestones, but as many have said here, I define what they are so it's clear to the players what needs to be accomplished to level up. I love the Peterson Games adventure modules - which also use milestones, but after a 'chapter' that has a clear ending or goal before progressing to the next 'chapter', this makes a lot of sense to me and eliminates much of the 'feed me, DM' problems with 5e.

The milestone rewards could be a neat way to give players the things they'd normally get when when they level. Like... A wizard could get/find a tome that with a few days of study teaches them a next level spell. A rogue could get/find a lockpick that makes lockpicking easier.

I just use your "Easy XP" system, Professor and it really works. Players get 1-3 experience points for completing a quest. When they get 10 XP, they can complete a Milestone Quest to level up.

When I first started RPing back in the 90s we either sat in the living room on the floor on couches or when we got a house we used a table and turned horizontally where the DM would sit at a long side. It allowed everyone to be closer and no one felt like they were left out.

I feel like this whole issue can be resolved by playing with people's who actually want to play D&D.

@elgatochurro

7 ай бұрын

To many sitting around waiting for the plot to introduce itself is DND now.

@alexanderchippel

7 ай бұрын

@@elgatochurro I do feel that.

@elgatochurro

7 ай бұрын

@@alexanderchippel I think it's the rise of streaming DND. Actually playing the game isn't EVERYTHING being so funny and epic and quirky... That's what the AUDIENCE wants. Today's players are yesterday's audience and they want to... Just watch things happen.

@alexanderchippel

7 ай бұрын

@@elgatochurro I think you're kinda off the mark. Not every player is like that, but a lot are very passive/reactive instead of proactive.

@elgatochurro

7 ай бұрын

@@alexanderchippel when I started over 10 years ago randoms were active players and roleplay was understanding what your character would do. Now it's passiveness and roleplay is acting like some movie character protagonist.

I've always like experience for gold, been playing with it since the old-school days. Recently, one idea I've implemented is experience points for treasure, but only after that treasure is spent. I've long wanted to encourage players to roleplay what a real person would do with a huge hoard of treasure; Buy a house, furnish that house, get nice clothes, eat very good food, rub shoulders with the rich and famous, hire tutors, etc. Awarding experience when gold is spent encourages players to do these kinds of things and also encourages continued adventures because the players accumulate expenses, run out of money, and need more money to maintain their expenses. So far it's worked well for my group, though admittedly we're a very roleplay-heavy group so mileage may vary, and I figured I'd throw it out there as an idea!

5e also has high XP values for monsters, compared to the low amount of XP needed to level. An orc has an XP value of 100, set against the 300 xp threshold to get to level 2. Compared to a 1e orc with a value of 10xp + 1/hp... against say a fighter's xp threshold of 2000 xp. Combined with mechanics that make it harder to kill characters, I imagine leads to many players going in with a 'kill first, ask questions later' point of view. 5e - rewarding the murdohobo since 2014!

@danielrowan4716

2 жыл бұрын

The path around murderhobo-ing is to penalize it. If it’s within the idiom of the character that’s upon the DM. However, such behavior in my campaigns has always, at least, drawn the notice if not ire of whatever powerful agents reside in the land and would result in swift, and frequently, harsh retribution.

@Merlinstergandaldore

2 жыл бұрын

@@danielrowan4716 For sure, definitely a good way to handle it. I was simply noting how the values for killing enemies seems to have been supercharged in 5e.

@nicholascarter9158

2 жыл бұрын

I think that the numbers are a little less lopsided than you're considering here, given that the average orc lair includes about 2,200 gp in just coins. Also I'm familiar with an analysis that, if you compare monster's expected damage from one attack as a percentage of a character's hitpoints, 5e monsters have actually been somewhat buffed in terms of their lethality. The big difference is that the game's advice for how many orcs to fight at once is significantly lower than it used to be.

Granted I don't have the GMing history/years that some of you do, but I've never had to "incentivize" people to come to the table. They wanted to be there and play because it's fun and they enjoy the company. I feel like if you're having to come up with reasons to incentivize people to come to the table, you're not playing with right people (or players aren't playing with the right GM). That doesn't mean the players or the GM is bad, it just means you didn't pair up with the right people.

@Yeldibus

2 жыл бұрын

I think you missed the point a bit. It's not that players don't come to play - it's that they expect to mereley "consume" the adventure rather than pursuing goals with their characters. The latter being far more interesting for everyone involved.

The gold bloat should be spent on hirelings, mercenaries, magical research, and mighty construction projects (every fighter needs a fortress, every wizard needs a tower and every cleric needs a temple…) among many other uses.

Blades in the Dark has an interesting xp system. After the session you ask yourself 3 questions written on your character sheet dependent on your class. Things like "did you address a challenge with Violence or coercion?" "Did you express your beliefs drives, heritage or background?". And then you get to award YOURSELF your xp if you believe you earned it. No=0xp, Yes=1xp, very yes many times=2xp! Never more than 2xp per question. It takes about 8 xp to get a new ability and 6 to get you another stat point. Going over these questions with the GM every session you consider what you did and what was impactful. I usually get my players to voice things out loud in front of the table... and if they don't come up with it, the other players like to chime in to give them an idea. Because rarely do you do nothing in a session. And then its the fact you proclaim it out loud and tell everyone what you think was important to your character. Its a good way to reinforce that you are playing your character. And a great way for the GM to guage what the player as an individual thinks was important of the last session. I don't think this would work for D&D. Instantly you will get players with different xp amounts, even if they are close. But it would be interesting to impliment and add a little flavor for those that want it.

I run a 1/2e campaign where I award xp for loot based on how challenging the scenario is or how cleverly the PCs manage it. In general for equivalent level encounters it’s 1:1 down to 1:5 for simple excursions. I will also, frequently apply bonus xp for milestones as you’d indicated, Professor, where a PC gets a significant xp bump for achieving particularly important and difficult goals. Deathbringer as your alter-ego brings me joy.

We use Milestone experience, as well as a variety of in-game rewards. In one game, characters undergo Transformations - collections of powers and mutations. In another, legendary artifacts also level-up.

I use milestones based on adventures or points in a long campaign. I'll have to try the goal cards, those sound fun! I like to advance the character's levels between sessions so we don't waste time choosing new spells, etc during the session. 1st level players who complete one short adventure are promoted to 2nd level. I give 2nd level characters a harder adventure and if they complete it they are promoted to 3rd level, etc. For epic adventures that last a year or more I divide them into chapters for levels. For example Frodo would be 2nd level after arriving in Rivendell, 3rd level when he and Sam leave the party. 4th level when he returns to the Shire.

I think I agree with most of these points, but I wanna add that you could hand out different kinds of rewards, not just levels. Like a rank, a deed to a place, favours, recipies, hints on the characters backstory, hints on the bbeg/villains, treasure maps and so much more.

I tried this once mid campaign to see if it would change game play. The players were locked out of the town's resources and were unable to have their equipment serviced/repaired or upgraded. Mandatory in my game as a maintenance cost and for gear improvements. They had to earn points on the next adventure to gain access to those town services; 3 points for villagers saved (4 villagers min-must or mission fails), 1 point per monster kill, 5 points for boss kill, 2 points for information gathered, etc. Individual goals for characters based on how the players typically played; Fighter must do 3/4 of all damage for a boss kill at least once in the adventure (a few boss types available), Ranger must draw a boss into a party ambush, Rogue must initiate a boss fight with a sneak attack. This was intended to get the players to actively play to their strengths and look for ways to make it happen. I need some tweaks but it made for a good session if not unusually aggressive players.

I love these solution for so many reasons but motivation management is the biggest reason why

I use a bit of a hybrid but mostly XP for encounters and the way they are handled. Fortunately we have a group of players that have all been playing since the old Basic days of the late 70's and early 80's so motivation is not an issue. When we get together we all want to play and enjoy the game!

The Rules Cyclopaedia had five ways to gain xp: XP from roleplaying XP from "achieving goals" XP from monsters XP from treasure XP from "exceptional actions". I use this as my system. Works pretty well. I really like 1sp=1xp though. I'm going to use that now. I would expand it as well so that starting money is in silver, but armour and weapons keep a gold price (other items are repriced using a silver standard). Makes things a bit more exciting at first level (and a bit more lethal perhaps...). Note I play Rules Cyclopaedia and prefer a slightly more historically accurate economy. Other D&D systems are probably different 😃

I use a combination of methods outlined in the video. Surviving the a session is worth 10xp, with most of the experience coming from completing goals and quests. Defeating a powerful enemy is also worth a bunch, but not mowing through a bunch of goblins. If a player can't make it for whatever reason, their character earns half of the xp the rest of the party gets, assuming the character participated as a temporary NPC.

Professor DM. As much as I enjoy Colville, my game has been vastly improved thanks to your tips. I came for the ultimate dungeon terrain and I stayed for the wisdom. Keep the tips coming..

@DUNGEONCRAFT1

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks. I see Matt as the gold standard.

I actually really like the XP set up that Palladium uses for Rifts and Ninjas & Superspies .

Great advice, professor! Lots of useful ideas!

Trying to be the cool dad and uncle by getting something like D&D ready for all the kiddos on the family vacation this year. Videos like this are very helpful, thanks Dungeon Craft!

Milestone experience is the best. No calculations, no murder-hobo incentive. Accomplish the next goal of the plot to level up. You can discourage AFK leveling by only awarding treasure to players who are present when it is found (assuming it's a problem for your group). Also if you want to go for gold = xp, you can prevent gold glut by requiring that gold be spent on "training" or "upgrades" back in town in order to actually level. Purchasing actual equipment or magic items costs extra as normal.

The XP system I've used for ten years now is pretty simple: each level up costs 1000 xp. Players spend xp like money to purchase new skills. Enough skill improvement and character levels up. Each major encounter can earn a player 50, 100, or 150 xp depending on difficulty for that player. Difficulty is based on the difference between encounter level and character level. I plan each session to have 3-4 major encounters and 1-3 minor encounters (25-75 xp range). Three sessions average is enough to accumulate 1000 xp. Players (when downtime is available) can spend gold and gameworld time on training to get more xp. The "calculations" are trivial (on the GM's side, at least; players will still need to figure out how to add 225+50 occasionally).

Right. I've heard a lot of these sorts of complaints before about player motivation and rewards. This isn't as hard as it looks. It starts with engaging with each player one-to-one before the campaign starts. I always do this and ask the same series of question so there's a level playing field. Once I have that skeleton outline, follow up questions might pop up. This process has two effects: - I learn what makes this character tick. I see the WHO behind the WHAT, if you will. - The player sees their character in a new light, and typically learns something about themselves too. Second, set expectations before the campaign starts. Lay out how absenteeism will be handled. I've literally run a campaign where absent PCs would *poof* out of existence because of Feywild shenanigans. Next, when it comes to rewards, I realized a long time ago that XP creates murder hobos, Gold XP turns even the holiest character into a klepto, and milestone experience fails to reward individual effort. Therefore, I created a "token" system based on Inspiration where a player would earn such tokens for great ideas, roleplaying, heroism, etc. They could save up to 10 of these tokens and there was a sliding scale on how many tokens could buy what benefit. They ranged from the simple Advantage that inspiration provides, all the way to spending 10 at one go to buy another level. Milestone rules still applied, so advancement could occur so long as you showed up and accomplished the necessary goals. This turned XP in risk management. Would you spend that token to possibly save an ally or were you hoping for a new level? And before the cheap seats decry this as a way t "skyrocket to level 20", level advancement via token occurred all of twice in 6 years. Most level advancement occurred through milestone. This was a table of 6 players, so it can work and it simplifies the math. It rewards heroism, engagement, and effort. Furthermore, the one thing I took from Colville (since he seems to be everyone's muse) is the return to things like followers, strongholds, raising armies, politics, and romantic subplots. My table has even seen a wedding. And wars. And famine. And extraplanar invaders. It can be done. First start by seeing what makes your players tick, then either tempt or endanger that. They'll follow. Trust me.

Tom sounds like the type of Batman we deserve.

I ran a West Marches style game about a year ago where player characters would get new abilities through noteworthy achievements (so sort of a milestone system). The thing is, they had to actually accomplish something on their sorties into the wild in order to get anything, like clearing a dungeon or neutralizing a particularly challenging monster. It actually worked fairly well, though I do believe an xp for gold system would have fit better. Kinda want to try it sometime.

I have a group that is extremely motivated just to roleplay their characters and play the game because we just all love D&D so much, but I'm aware that many people have problems with this. Personally, I award experience points in the warhammer style - where experience points represent your character learning new things. Quote (paraphrased) "slaying the hordes of chaos in 12 rounds, your characters may not have learnt many new skills"

About 17 years ago I ran a game themed off of Buffy the Vampire Slayer in the BESM system. In trying to stick to the theme I constructed each session like an episode. After 5 or 6 sessions it would be like a mid-season finale with ultra high stakes and storyline tension and advancement. In another 5 or 6 sessions they would have the final battle with that season's big bad. Level advancement came from the mid-season and end of season sessions. But there were also side quests that are personal to each character in the story. They do not provide level advancement, but there are many non-XP related rewards that are powerful, but not critical to the main storyline. These rewards could be better magic items, new allies, favors owed, and boons from someone or something powerful. While the players were separating the mainline from the side quests at the metagame level, they were finding in-character reasons to choose one direction over the other. They were engaging in the world, and thinking about what they needed to do before they would level up. It was immersive. To this day I still use a format like this. Every paladin wants to get their hands on the Holy Avenger; it is a character defining weapon of extreme power. The same can be said a lot of legendary items in the DMG. These rewards don't exist in the pathway of the main story. They are rewards earned from the sake of the reward itself. I find that when the party embarks on a quest for one of their fellow party members alone, it creates a lot of in-game roleplayed cohesion. I don't know if this style would work at every table, my group of friends have been playing together for decades, but it works for me. I find there is more roleplaying immersion and selfless group play. Also, I think it pairs nicely with a more grimdark type of game when the players and their characters really really want to give the big bad some "justice". I don't think rewards need to just be a mechanic created by Hasbro and WotC. They should also be in-game and in-story resources that can shape a character's standing in the world. If I am going to go fight the big bad, I'd much rather have a favor from the arch-duke's chief of staff, than 4 more hit points and a second level spell slot.

Great video! I have always found players move in “cycles” - as interest went down, we went to new game or campaign- or took up rock climbing instead

Good stuff as always. I recently wrote this in a doc for a game I'm planning, thought I should share since it has a similar motivation to your video. Also, this is for 5e, and I plan on including a certain amount of treasure per player per pillar of game play (so, some of this will be hidden for the explorers, some will be gainable through roleplay interactions, and some yes, through good old fashion murder-hoboing, er, combat). - Gold ‘Spent’ = XP. - Spent gold must be eliminated from the game to count as xp. - If the gold is used to buy equipment, the resale value of the item is deducted from the gold spent to calculate the xp gained. Spell components that are consumed count as their equipment type. Equipment lost, damaged, or destroyed does not grant its resale value in xp, it’s just gone (replacing it between games does though). Example: You buy Plate Armor for 1500 gold. Plate Armor, if undamaged, can sell to NPCs for 750 gp, so you gain 1500 - 750 = 750 xp for buying Plate Armor. Basically, you turned 1500 gp into 750 gp, so you spent 750 gp. - Gold may be spent for in-character reasons as a thinly veiled excuse to gain xp. This is what I call the ‘Hookers and Blow’ rule. Basically, your character can donate gold to charity, lose it all gambling, etc. in order to convert gold to xp. Since this is pretty much just RP money loss, it gains the full value. You can make up whatever reasons your character has to be motivated by finding treasure to justify their adventuring and use that to fuel your xp growth. - Class related expenses, such as wizards doing spell research, also count as gold spent for xp, even though the wizard gains something from it (since he can’t sell the spell, not really, it counts as money spent). - Buying something from another player is not worth xp, since the gold is still in the game (it’s just resource trading). This allows for altruistic characters in a pulp-fantasy setting (I'm doing it to gain money for the orphanage... yes, the one the tiefling burnned down). Also rewards spending that cash, since it's not xp until you spend it. I imagine that players will hoard money, buy only what they need, then party when they have enough gold to level up, but whatever.

I still give xp for defeating monsters and npcs. However defeating doesn't mean killing. If you out argue someone in a debate you defeat them, if you sneak past a guard you defeat them, if you out haggle a merchant you defeat them. Though honestly I really enjoy systems of Call of Cthulu where experience is tied to specific skills not just a general pool you use to upgrade anything.

@thesonofdormammu5475

2 жыл бұрын

I'm also in this camp, the goal is to defeat the encounter, whether that is through role play, combat, intentional evasion, etc. Also making sure that the NPCs they encounter have valuable information is key, that keeps them from just starting every single encounter with a call to arms.

Bilbo only took that because it was "what his pony could carry, and was more than he'd ever need" (if my kids-brain remembers the quote). I like urgent quests. Recently sent my kids on a timer adventure, and they had a blast. It was doable, but just, and they managed to thwart a kidnapping attempt so they actually did get to sleep. I'm realizing this would not have been possible if they had that horrid pony Hay You at that time. He slows everything down, but not even griffons managed to take him out. For the gold fever players, I've made sure they understand carrying capacity (hence the pony), and banks, because a slow, jingling pony is an attractive target.

The last tip with the gold bloat is really good. People in the OSR community always praise gold-for-xp, so i tried running it once, and after just one session of doing this my players had so much gold that everything in the shop became trivial to buy. Initially they said "finally an RPG where you can actually afford stuff!", but very quickly they realized that it basically made adventuring meaningless. I think the rule that "only gold you waste drinking and partying counts towards XP" is also a good idea in this case, in the spirit of Conan. So they have to make the decision if they want to buy stuff or level up faster. I also tried introducing the encumbrance system from Lamentations OTFP, so they had to choose if they want to be able to carry treasure of gear, but...that idea failed very rapidly. Still too complicated of a system.

Hey Professor Dungeon Master! You sound more under the weather than normal video's. I hope your all right, take time for your self if your overwhelmed or sick. :)

One Gold = XP Variant, I'm found off, is that PCs can spend gold on useless things to gain XP. (tavern, brothel, party, jewelry, alms. Everything that does not give a mechanical benefit) This way, you don't get a gold bloat because the PCs will spend it all between adventure. But what I mostly use, is giving the characters in game motivations and rewards. They have goals to strive for, NPCs will thank them and help them if the PCs help them out. They will honor the party, and throw parties to celebrate them. You can give out items, spells, connections to powerful NPCs and factions, ships, houses, keeps and fiefdoms. I usually let my players come up with their character goals, but giving out personalized goals through cards is a nifty idea.

I use GURPS for my Westmarches campaign. I have a gold for XP rule, and my solution for the huge mountain of gold problem is that my players MUST spend the gold for gaining the XP. They must spend in training 10 GP for 1 XP per day (in GURPS 1 XP = 1 Character point and could be spend directly to rise a skill or atribute ). So they must balance buying equipment, XP and the spendings in the City (the better rooms and food they have, faster they heal).

I'm now giving experience in exchange for hitpoints lost and gold. The way this work is whenever a PC gets any serious wound or mental trauma, that wound/trauma can only be cured in exchange for gold by some sort of professional (or maybe a magic ritual that the PCs can perform, but requires expensive ingredients all the same). For each wound/trauma they cure, they get experience. If they take too much damage, they die. This way, they are incentivized to get into dangerous situations, but they still have to be careful. They also are incentivized to look for work, as most NPCs are poor, so robbing them isn't worth the risk of antagonizing them and their friends. What I also like about it is the idea that characters learn and become stronger through struggle.

I like Dungeon world way of motivating players to roleplay by making your alignment giving you a broadly specific action you do to gain XP, I know it doesn't work for every game, but I think it's a neat way to encourage people towards roleplay using the mechanics

i use milestone XP for achieving major party goals. i also use Reward Coins which are bonus xp awarded to one player each session for good roleplaying. we play mostly online these days so the reward coin is represented by a unique coin image and added to their online character notes. players who dont show up earn 1/2 xp for that session and their character is played as an NPC for that session.

I don't run or play with Milestones, I always use XP. The only change I have made is that social encounters and exploration encounters also give XP. As far as character driven goals, my players have found that resolving them is reward enough. Cheers!

@alderaancrumbs6260

2 жыл бұрын

We use milestones and love them. Savage Worlds uses the same thing to advance. Luckily, my players love to engage with plots, so Bennies and Conviction (Savage Worlds meta-currencies) satisfy the small “Gimme cookie!” itch. I otherwise despise XP and loot goblin-hood. If you want that, play Skyrim or WoW. 😏

@B42UC4

2 жыл бұрын

@@alderaancrumbs6260 I think every table finds the way they want to play. As long as there are consecuences to the characters actions, I think all is good and well. Cheers!

Been using what most would call 'milestone' (don't wanna be too TL/DR here but it's worked for us for decades) mixed with something similar to the cards for a long time. Back in AD&D you didn't just get your level, move along. There was supposed to downtime, training, etc. Most of us, including my groups, just sort of added age to the characters and took the powers and hit points. I came up with a system (eventually) where, with the players assisting me with backstory and such, there would be in-game-setting actual tasks or mini-quests which allowed them to 'learn' the skills for their new level. There could be other things in play such as acquiring rank in an army or govt position, getting access to a professional guild, stuff along those lines. It's been fun and we've been doping it a long while! Tell Deathbringer hi!

Great insight and advice as always. Keep up the great work! The grass will always look greener if you compare it, so please don't.

Ironsworn and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying both base their experience point reward system based on character goals. Ironsworn does this when a character swears a vow: the more arduous the vow in question, the more XP they can possibly get upon completing the vow. With MHRP, each character (an established Marvel character) has a Milestone theme and three tiers of XP acquisition. The 1-XP tier is a relatively simple condition that characters can fulfill multiple times in a scene. The 3-XP tier is a more-involved condition that characters can only fulfill once per scene. The 10-XP tier is the overarching condition to resolve that theme, whether in victory or in defeat; once that tier is accomplished, a completely new Milestone theme and conditions are set up for the character since they've completed that character arc.

The game I'm writing you purchase new abilities with XP however all the abilities also have story based prerequisites, oh you want to get the marital champion feat? Well you have to prove yourself to a patron and swear your allegiance to them first.

@ElfLady

2 жыл бұрын

I'm doing similar with my game. Great minds...

4E is still my favorite D&D setting ... my 4E variant campaign borrowed ideas from 5E, adding combat advantage/disadvantage and a few other ideas. Magic items in my campaign are typically both more powerful and more plenty than the standard ones you find in the books, even straight at first level. Most +1 items tend to have an always-on property and a minor/bonus action activatable encounter/daily power, but come with three simple house rules: Item properties never stack, activatable powers stack once; using an activatable power disables uses from items in that slot; you can wear as many items as are comfortable.

@AvangionQ

2 жыл бұрын

10:37 I can recommend a change of seating arrangement ... instead of being at the end of the table, sit in the middle of the table, so everyone's closer to you

I liked how 2e had XP for doing anything class based. Like breaking magic items, or reading books for wizards or climbing walls for thieves. I think removing asymmetrical leveling messed alot of things up.

I don't know why Colville's videos are more popular. I get a lot more out of yours, and you have Deathbringer!