Go to buyraycon.com/punkrockmba for 15% off your order! Brought to you by Raycon.

@TikkiNikki

11 ай бұрын

Look at this sell out KZreadr hawking corporate merch 😂

@Clown_Wizard

11 ай бұрын

Son, he didn’t sell out, he bought in. Keep that in mind.

@skateroffortune

11 ай бұрын

I got the studio Raymond last year they do fit like they claim but I favored one and after a month it was noticeably quieter

@NikoFrederiko.

11 ай бұрын

​@@skateroffortuneOne of your ears is deafer.

@ch-yq5yn

11 ай бұрын

Because people like to live comfortable lives?

One thing about Green Day is they were offered deals from multiple major labels and turned them down. They only accepted the deal that still guaranteed them complete creative control.

@freddude1493

11 ай бұрын

And they also played the exact same music for 30 years . They’ve stayed pretty consistent for decades.

@BBRocker75

11 ай бұрын

Ha ha ha ha.

@tonymartin7849

11 ай бұрын

And Green Day is punk rock 3rd generation. Meaning they had zero integrity to begin with.

@creamydistortion

11 ай бұрын

And they're gay.

@limpneckmike

11 ай бұрын

⁠@@freddude1493I’m gonna have to disagree with that. They have evolved a lot through the years.

Jason Newsted said it perfectly. “Sellout? Yes we do sellout. Every night. Every seat. Everywhere we play.”

@mramos1126

11 ай бұрын

I thought Lars said that

@KeepTheGates

11 ай бұрын

​@@thefinaltitanagreed

@khalis6973

11 ай бұрын

​@@thefinaltitanYeah but at the end of the day, money matters in life

@KeepTheGates

11 ай бұрын

​​@@khalis6973t's far from the most important thing in life.

@cjhenline

11 ай бұрын

​@KeepTheGates not at all what was said, so don't even. The person you're replying to said "money matters in life" & fun fact, it does. Is it the most important thing in life? Well actually there is an argument to be made as you need money to be able to support yourself/your family, soooo...

Lest we forget that for some reason 70’s and 60’s rock bands are considered the “peak” of true rock music despite them releasing music on major labels since day one.

@UGLY-MONEY17

11 ай бұрын

Also no one ever brings up how half those album recordings have session musicians playing on them. A lot of times it wasn’t even the real band playing on the actual record lol.

@austintrousdale2397

11 ай бұрын

Boomers gonna Boom

@julianbatcheler9970

11 ай бұрын

@@UGLY-MONEY17 and so many cover versions and early on, terrible recordings.

@mike04574

10 ай бұрын

whatever happened to session musicians

@Ryan_hey

9 ай бұрын

@@mike04574 Better technology. For example, now you can lay down a hundred tracks on a song while recording an infinite amount of takes.

"I didn't get into music to be poor for my entire life" - Iggy Pop "The time to sell out is when you have a buyer" - Nigel Tufnel

1986. A coworker DRAGGED me about Van Halen's 1984. All the time. "That's real Rock!" When 5150 came out, I told him I bought it and I loved it! He called them SELLOUTS just because I loved it. Message: If people I don't like love something, it must be trash. The 'sellout' concept is garbage.

@HeritageWealthPlanning

11 ай бұрын

Never understood the appeal of either album actually. But to each his own.

@comebackkid625

11 ай бұрын

Was your co-worker Eddie Trunk?

@garrettscroggs

11 ай бұрын

5150 was such a natural evolution of 1984. Only thing different was a new singer and the keyboard ballad being what was pushed as the big single. I like both albums btw.

Punk Rock MBA “sold out” for being sponsored by RayCons

@alteredbeast304

11 ай бұрын

Get that bag, as I always say

@laserbeamlightning

11 ай бұрын

@@alteredbeast304 raycons truly are terrible though

@EricCOREgee12

11 ай бұрын

Raycon sold out for being sponsored by SpongeBob

@tokiyakillsinsight160

11 ай бұрын

@@alteredbeast304 hell yeah. I hope PR MBA knows I don’t actually think this lol. I just thought it’d be appropriate for the topic of the video. That’s why I wrote “sold out” in quotations.

@tobyarellano7742

11 ай бұрын

😂

I'm super hesitant to call a band "sellouts" now. I saw it as that when I was 14... but now at 33, I know that bands evolve. Same ways that my music taste has evolved over the years. I wouldn't want to be doing the same exact shit, 10, 15, 20 years later

@creamydistortion

11 ай бұрын

Hahaha don't make excuses for Green Gay

I once knew this guy that was in an extremely successful local band that I got to know really well. He was the rhythm player, and he didn't really stand out in any way. One night, their lead player was sick and couldn't make the show, and this guy played lead. He was amazing. He was one of the best guitar players I have ever seen in person. He blew their lead player out of the water. I went up to him after that show and asked him why he wasn't playing lead full time, since he was a lot better than the lead player. His answer surprised me. He said that he had no desire to be the center of attention. He said that he just like to stand in the background, play and do his thing. He said he was perfectly fine if no one noticed him. It shocked me at the time, but it made sense. Not all people need to be the center of attention. I guess that's why session players exist.

@jaromdl

10 ай бұрын

I'd argue It makes sense to have the stronger guitar player playing rhythm. How well a band performs is hugely affected by how locked-in the musicians are rhythmically.

A close friend of mine grew up in Vegas and played in one of Brendon Urie’s early bands. He said everyone at the school knew he had star power, everyone in the scene was impressed by him. He worked tirelessly learning any instrument he could and was the only reason a lot of them wanted to play. People just wanted to play with him. That man was always going to turn into a frontman. Ambitious from the very start.

@zabvza7457

11 ай бұрын

Ronnie Radke went to the same high school

@_Pauper_

11 ай бұрын

Same with Jack White in Detroit. Dude was in every band here (including a friend of mines)

I’m sort of the opposite. I see underground bands get big and I’m happy for them. All those years living in a dirty van eating 7-11 wanting more for their hard work.

@blackkennedy3966

11 ай бұрын

lol exactly the only thing bands truly want is more exposure more people listening to them

@nonyobussiness3440

11 ай бұрын

You only make music with hops of making it big and being popular. Lol like who would make music that no one likes.

@peaner083

11 ай бұрын

​@@nonyobussiness3440The thing is plenty do but iam sure they don't care and actually like it themselves. So many musicians that break through, even on a small scale (and it's usually them) say to not only enjoy what you do but play what you wanna hear.

why does nobody ever accuse film composers of selling out? they quite literally write music in whatever style they're asked to do for a fat check.

@ThePunkRockMBA

11 ай бұрын

Great point!

@Malum09

11 ай бұрын

I've Seen plenty of people call Hans Zimmer a Hack and dread whenever his name gets attached to something for the last ten years.

@StuartHetzler

11 ай бұрын

@@Malum09 Oh he's a hack these days for sure, but not because he's a sellout or whatever. It's because he recycles his own work a bunch and farms out to other composers but still slaps his name on the end product. Still a legend for the Lion King score tho

@ChristopherJames1993

8 ай бұрын

​@@StuartHetzlerall composers do that. Theres only so many notes and melodies. John Williams did it in Harry Potter.

Mark McGrath said something about doing whatever it takes not to go back to hanging drywall once in an interview and that was the moment I quit caring about bands selling out.

@ThePunkRockMBA

11 ай бұрын

Yes! That’s the one

@captaintoyota3171

8 ай бұрын

As a carpenter i can confirm hanging drywall Fing sucks

Rage fans: “you were supposed to rage against the machine, not join them!” RATM: “fuck you, I won’t do what you tell me!”

@maynarddrivesfast804

11 ай бұрын

Right. The lyrics didn't change. They were just turned on the very audience that used to pay for their tickets.

@HeritageWealthPlanning

11 ай бұрын

Unless they're told to take a vaccine. Then they'll do what you tell 'em. They suck. Still have the Inside Out 7" from back in the day though. And as long as they generate headlines I can always say I have that, which is pretty funny.

@muslimmetalman

11 ай бұрын

​@@maynarddrivesfast804so? That's the opposite of selling out. That's the height of integrity

@braysthedead9547

11 ай бұрын

90% of tickets were sold at $125, they tried to stop the scalpers by disabling the offical platinum ticket and threating to sue anyone they can find selling tickets above face value and majority of ticket revenue went to charity. raised over 3 million going to charity of each city they stopped in.

@dj_devil_corpse

11 ай бұрын

RATM iz gavno, nothing from Metl or Rokz.

Boyz II Men should be mentioned, from hardcore underground punk in the late 1980s to … “End of the Road”.

@chernobylcoleslaw6698

11 ай бұрын

😂😂😂

@ThePunkRockMBA

11 ай бұрын

Their 1987 split 7” with Agnostic Front was a classic

@loverofcereal7277

11 ай бұрын

Motown Philly hard-core

@maynarddrivesfast804

11 ай бұрын

Lol. For a second there I thought I woke up in some alternate timeline where BoyzIIMen actually came up in the 80's hardcore scene.

@HeritageWealthPlanning

11 ай бұрын

@@maynarddrivesfast804 me too, man. I was like "Did this actually happen???"

Finally SLC Punk makes its long awaited debut. Deserves its own video.

The Independent Labels in the 90's simply didn't have the DISTRIBUTION, which was the most important thing a band needed. Some of those labels would "top out" at 50 to 100k units. I think when Slayer's "Reign In Blood" came out in 86, people started to realize how much extreme music could sell if it got proper distribution.

@nonyobussiness3440

11 ай бұрын

All of those labels would simply contract with major labels and distributors and basically take a large percentage doing absolutely nothing, basically an unnecessary middleman. It’s why nirvana went major. They had to pay for recording, your, create a buzz and subpop couldn’t give them the a large enough advance and am good enough studios to make their second album, then they were going to play middle man with a major.

@billy6220

11 ай бұрын

@@nonyobussiness3440 Exactly. And indie couldn't even give buy back guarantees to the record stores.

The opposite of "selling out" sometimes happens too- when a band goes so far following their own muse that they forget to put any hooks in there, or alternatively just fail to evolve at all and their songs end up sounding the same. It's such a hard balancing act and the artist is never going to please everyone. As long as they do whatever they do with passion and feeling and are genuinely proud of their work then they have not sold out imo.

@InkAndPoet

11 ай бұрын

I'd say The Spin Doctors on their sophomore record "Turn It Upside Down" are a good example. They had two great singles on PFOK ("Two Princes" and "Little Ms. Can't-be-wrong"), then blew it BIG TIME with "Cleopatra's Cat" and derailed their success.

@nowwithdave

11 ай бұрын

TOOL

@huwguyver4208

11 ай бұрын

@@InkAndPoet yeah I heard about that. Todd In The Shadows did a deep dive on Turn It Upside Down on his Trainwreckords series. That is a good example of what I mean.

@Interestingenough4

11 ай бұрын

Yup. Third Eye Blind made the "muse too far" mistake on their second album, and despite a few killer tunes, the album lacked a lot of hookiness and energy that the first one had, and their career went downhill from there. I'd also say that Say Anything, The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, The Academy Is..., The Starting Line, All-American Rejects, Relient K, and Boys Like Girls are some "scene" examples of "following their muse too far" at some point in time and thus derailing their momentum. Weezer has also fallen into that trap at multiple points in their career, but at least has enough talent to where at least 1 absolute standout song will shine through.

@creamydistortion

11 ай бұрын

@@nowwithdave Ha, tool made an album 14 years later sounds just like outtakes from the last one.

Artists grow and their art changes over time. I started out just wanting to make as much noise with as much distortion as I could use, and play fast. Over time, I gained an appreciation for all different kinds of music. Most of what I've released so far has been country-ish stuff. When I actually release a full album, it's gonna be a bit like putting a rock collection from the last 60 years or so on shuffle. There's rockabilly, punk, southern rock, quiet acoustic stuff, classic heavy metal, and a few that don't fit neatly into any one category. If an artist's earlier work is more inspiring to you, use that inspiration and write something yourself. That's more productive than criticizing someone you've never met over choices they've made for reasons you don't know.

As a small time solo acoustic guy, I’d be happy to accept a multi million dollar deal and wear what they want and sing what they want. All it’ll do is set me up for later so I can have the freedom to do the things I want. I also have a lot of respect for the way Taylor Swift told the music industry to basically suck it and took her own music back

@creamydistortion

11 ай бұрын

Sell crack and shop mad demos.

I like that the No Doubt video Don't Speak is all about Gwen getting more attention and how it drives a wedge between bandmates.

@puturro

11 ай бұрын

And her splitting up with the bass player

@HappinessDIY

11 ай бұрын

They were local to me for a while. They never really sold out. They wanted to make a good living in music. They tried ska, as a way in. They were never really a ska band, it was a sound they tried.

@HappinessDIY

11 ай бұрын

In fact, Tom dated my friends sister back in the day. I hung out with them (Tom and sister) shortly after the Super Bowl show and asked him about it in a roundabout sort of way. He was happy for her and a bit burned out at the spotlight anyway. My takeaway was that there was some annoyance and frustration in the early days, from the big album to the one after, but they all got past it and were all satisfied with how things played out he said from his $100k Beamer lol.

I’ve always been puzzled by how Nirvana managed to avoid being labeled “sellouts”. Even though they signed to a major label, made a video for Smells Like Teen Spirit and approved of MTV airing it, used the money they made from Nevermind to buy fancy homes, etc. Even the more abrasive In Utero had several radio-ready songs that were clearly made for the mainstream. So their reputation for being “anti-mainstream” (which, if you look at Cobain’s influences, is totally false - he even liked Motley Crue!) is a mystery to me.

@dvs620

11 ай бұрын

There isn't a single song on In Utero that is blatantly for radio. The mix was so "unfriendly" (some say bad) that Heart Shaped Box and All Apologies were remixed just to sound good on radio. Kurt HATED the mix for Nevermind saying it was too polished and clean. But time has shown that Butch Vig and Andy Wallace (sound mixer) were right all along. It's also telling that In Utero was remixed to sound better.

@matthewatwood8641

10 ай бұрын

Kurt Cobain was one of the biggest sellouts ever. Never intended otherwise.

@matthewatwood8641

10 ай бұрын

​@@dvs620yes, Kurt was good at playing the role of the defiant artist refusing to sell out while he sold out. I would be surprised if in utero wasn't put out the way it was deliberately to make it look like Kurt and Nirvana were defying the record label.

@dvs620

10 ай бұрын

@@matthewatwood8641 The first line on In Utero is "Teenage angst has paid off well, but now I'm bored and old." He knew this was coming. The second line is "Self appointed judges judge, more than they have sold." Seems.he called out guys like you as well. 😁

@dvs620

10 ай бұрын

@@matthewatwood8641 Yeah. Record labels love records that don't sound good on the radio, then speaking extra money to have people go back into the studio and remix 2 songs so they sound good on the radio. Record labels don't care about artist integrity. They care about spending the least amount of money to make the most amount of money. No label would deliberately sabotage an album to "protect" the artist's image.

Jewel's story is righteous! She turned down a million dollar advance to lived in her van until it was no longer advance but str8 revenue. She brought limo's and record execs to a small coffee house, for her. She didn't even lean toward money. It came to her.

For me it is all about being consistent with what you claim in your songs and the message you intend to send to your audience. And also about loosing the original sound for a more polished and not necessarily better work.

The major deciding factor in if an artist really sells out is the effort they are putting into their art. So many of those artists you mention may have changed their sound/done something different or popular but what they put out still has that depth, attention to detail, etc.

Joey Cape nailed it with Know It All. "Because talents exclusive to bands without pay." That song changed my way of thinking about selling out. Great video Finn.

You can't make everyone happy, but you can make yourself happy. I think there is something especially sad when an artist sacrifices their authenticity to make something THEY aren't happy with just to earn a paycheck. A lot of bands like motley crue and slayer look back on those "sell out" albums woth a lot of disdain and regret whereas metallica and green day not so much, and I think that is the main distinction for me

@cristianlopez_8486

11 ай бұрын

To me, it all depends on whether the bands genuinely wanna experiment with a new direction or are just chasing trends. In the case of Slayer, they tried to make music in genre (Nu Metal) that they were not exactly that thrilled to begin with and it shows in Diabolus In Musica, not just in the final product but their hesitancy to touch again afterwards. With Metallica on Load and Reload, regardless of how mixed received those albums were, you can at least tell they made a genuine attempt and that they enjoyed writing and recording those songs from their jam sessions. Now, whether those albums should've been released under the "Metallica" name instead of a separate side project (Suicidal Tendencies and Infectious Grooves for example), that's certainly a discussion.

A big part of music is just pure marketing. So it makes sense when bands change their sound to something more trendy I get why some fans would hate that, but I honestly feel happy when more people know about my favorite bands so I can finally have people to talk about music I love lol

@zekie106

11 ай бұрын

@@robyee3325 i wouldn't mind if it's just an experimental phase OR if they still make their older style of music from time to time Bring Me The Horizon recently went pop with their Ed Sheeran collab, and their "Strangers" song. BUT they also made something very recently that caters to their old fans with the song "Amen" On the other hand, Paramore went full indie/pop with their 2 latest albums. No more alt-rock from them, and that's why I'm not a fan of their newer stuff

Most artists and performers are smoke and mirrors. They don’t all write their own songs, play every part in the studio, use backing tracks at shows, and have managers running their social media. It just is what it is and I’ve learned just to either enjoy the music or move on to something else.

One of my favorite examples of people raving about selling out is Blink-182 with Enema of the State. Lots of people were angry about them being on TRL and having teenybopper fans, so they invented this narrative that they used to be some legitimate true punk band but then turned into pure pop music with Enema of the State. I don't know what's funnier in that claim, the first part about how true and seriously punk Blink's first albums supposedly were, or that Enema of the State was some notable shift in sound.

@Coolrecords567

11 ай бұрын

Perfectly said! 👏

We talk about gateway bands all the time, but Green Day was literally a gateway band for me to get into punk (which eventually led me to get into metal). I was a fucking middle class white kid from nowhere suburbia in the 90's before the internet - Green Day was my introduction to punk music. Insomniac (still their best album imo, and also by far their heaviest) was the first album I ever bought with my own money. From Green Day I eventually started listening to Rancid, then Nofx, then Lagwagon, No Use for a Name, Bouncing Souls, AFI, and on it goes until at some point I found myself listening to Agnostic Front. And then that led me to Avenged Sevenfold (their first album has a LOT of punk influence), which led me to metal in general. Without that initial spark of hearing Longview or Basket Case on MTV (or on the radio or however I heard it first), I never would have got into punk. None of my friends listened to rock music at all. I was the only one.

@IceBreakBottle

11 ай бұрын

Dookie for me dude

@Jess-ei2ye

11 ай бұрын

Nimrod for me when I was 12

@parxboiiz

11 ай бұрын

It was American idiot for me (just look at my username)

@PalmelaHanderson

11 ай бұрын

@@IceBreakBottle for sure. The first songs I heard from them were from Dookie. Enough that I wanted whatever they came out with next, which was insomniac. I ran that fucking tape dry. It's what got me into punk, then what got me into playing guitar, then what led me to find out I don't have the patience to learn music theory (I did later, but that's another story), which led to me learning how to play drums because I didn't have the patience for guitar.

@IceBreakBottle

11 ай бұрын

@@PalmelaHanderson That's awesome dude :)

Thank you for pointing out that it actually takes hard work and expertise to be good at writing successful pop songs. I think the assumption from fans of other genres - especially metalheads - is that writing hit songs is easy because they’re simple and easy to digest. But creating a song that is both memorable and capable of mainstream success takes a ton of effort and time. And sometimes luck.

@rmv9194

11 ай бұрын

Yeah, but writing a complex song that Is memorable Is still harder.

Dude, Green Day was the coolest band in California from 1994-1996. Stickers everywhere! I feel like they ushered in pop-punk to the mainstream then we got No Doubt………….

@microchrist6122

11 ай бұрын

They were both from Orange County though… 👎

@Job.Well.Done_01

11 ай бұрын

@@microchrist6122 thought Green Day is from The Bay Area?

@HappinessDIY

11 ай бұрын

@@Job.Well.Done_01 They were from the Bay area, but I was in Long Beach at the time, a lot of people thought Green Day was local, because they were CONSTSNTLY playing that area, like literally every month or two they were on a bill in the local zine ads. I thought they were local too until years later.

@microchrist6122

11 ай бұрын

@@HappinessDIY exactly they made their name in Orange County

@HappinessDIY

11 ай бұрын

@@microchrist6122 I think so too. My take is they lived in NorCal, but SoCal made them famous.

It's hilarious how so many people say the Black Album was a sellout album, then there's that Revolver video where most of the people interviewed chose Sad but True as the heaviest riff ever lol. Just because they slowed down doesn't mean it wasn't heavy. Also, it's insulting to demand an artist keep repeating the same thing over and over.

@HappinessDIY

11 ай бұрын

I recall an interview where One hit somewhat big, they decided they liked that, so they decided at that time they were going to be more radio friendly because they wanted that number one spot as a challenge. Nothing wrong with that.

@rmv9194

11 ай бұрын

Is not about heavyness. Is just a different style, so It makes sense some older fans wont like It. It was heavy metal, while the first albums were speed/thrash metal.

@RafitoOoO

11 ай бұрын

@@rmv9194 yes, but back then they were criticized for being soft and it clearly isn't, they just slowed down a bit.

@curtissnow9546

11 ай бұрын

Enter sandman is the embodiment of a sell out song it has no message and sounds like a terrible pop song. Master of puppets was the final good album by Metallica, after they ran out of riffs to steal from Dave mustaine and cliff burton died, so too did their ability to make good music

@rmv9194

11 ай бұрын

@@ghost_mall yeah, But It wasnt the norm, It was like one or two slow Track per album (fade to black, for whom the bell tolls, the thing that should not be. In the black album the only Fast song I remember Is through the never. Anyway, I just found the Black Album really boring

For me, the problem is when the artist isn't even writing their own music anymore. Most pop stars especially have a dozen people writing one of their hits, and their name is not one of them- they're just the voice and face to it onstage after it's already been ghostwritten. THAT is selling out, IMO.

The timeline usually goes: 1) Become fan of thing due to it being promoted and well financed. 2) Discover more underground or niche version of thing. 3) Insist that thing should never be promoted or well financed for fear of it attracting the wrong people.

A video about artists that changed genres throughout their career would be an interesting dive. This video touches on it in the whole idea of "selling out" and making music that is more accessible, but I mean completely changing genres, with barely a sign of their original sound and still maintained relevance and success through the process.

@ThePunkRockMBA

11 ай бұрын

Yep I did a couple of those a few years back!

@RedrumVideoProductns

11 ай бұрын

@@robyee3325 I kinda feel like Finn avoids Incubus like the plague. Just something I've noticed the whole time I've been watching. He rarely mentions them in videos, if ever. Didn't even get a mention when he touches on Nü Metal. I'm fine with his seeming avoidance, personally, as I'm a big fan and know far too much, but I think their origins, their lyrical messages and their ability to have full creative freedom from very early on are worth diving into. Getting new generational interest in their music, which has an overall positive message, is kinda worth a video at some point. Their message helped shape me into a better person than I was in my youth. Was super into their side projects too. Clearly interested to see one about them pop up, but I get it if it doesn't happen.

Great video! There's another dimension to the "selling out" debate, I think. The whole notion has its roots in the 60s counterculture and the disdain for mainstream, commercial culture, of course. But the big debate about "selling out' was really in the late 80s and early 90s. And I think it's important to note that most of the people involved at that point were in their 20s or early to mid 30s. That is, much of the debate about "selling out" was carried on by people who often weren't yet at the stage of life where they were asking themselves, "How am I going to make a sufficient, stable income for the rest of my life, pay for my kids' school supplies, mortgage, etc." Rather, music went along with a punkhouse or multiple roommate, eat Ramen, shit job lifestyle. I think a lot of the purity was a product of the still quite limited time horizons of the people involved. I mean, Johnny Rotten was still in his 30s in the early 90s! These folks were young. I think the youthfulness of the passion surrounding the question of "selling out" is part of its charm and part of its limitation. I don't say this to dunk on it, but just to point out that people usually think differently at different stages of their lives, and the debate about selling out was largely among people who were, at the time, only part of the way into adulthood, if they were at all, with all the strengths and weaknesses that such a point of view implies.

I really hope you see this Finn - as a long time fan (and soon a Patreon as my financial situation gets better) these in-depth videos challenging an existing belief or concept are masterpieces. Even though these might not be your most watched videos I feel like these are the ones your true fans (such as myself) will watch/listen to multiple times and appreciate greatly. I would think these are kind of videos that don’t get old and will deepen your relationship with the already existing audience. Like when you talk about bands like Black Dahlia Murder or Every Time I Die which are probably not the best selling bands ever but do have that die-hard fanbase granting their careers as much longevity as they want. I just wanted to take a second to first off, thank you, and also wish PRMBA doesn’t become ”only” sort of a wikipedia channel but these beautiful, maybe lesser viewed but hugely appreciated, videos will also remain! You have also mentioned, those ”wikipedia style” ones are not the videos you like making the most. Thanks for everything, take care and I hope this didn’t come across as entitled. Much love from a tacky European! ❤️

Good work Finn great research and video

Sometimes you become more popular because you write better songs as your craft matures. Also, it doesn't make sense for a 30 or 40 year old to play the same angry music they played when they were 20, because people grow up and learn more nuanced ways to make their point.

@jankapaa3074

11 ай бұрын

This. I guess a lot of the alleged acts of selling out may have much to do with artistic development. As you learn to play your instrument and/or sing, you realize there's more to music than just smashing open strings and yelling at the microphone. Plus, a couple of months ago, I accidentally found a demo tape of my late '90s garage band. Were I any kind of ashamed with the lyrics I wrote back then? Not a jot, they represented me as a teen. Would I write the same lyrics now, i.e. a quarter of a century later? No effin' way. Today, in my early forties, I'm a vastly different person. Quite natural, isn't it?

My only gripe is today's state of music, where Singles seem to be the way to go. As full albums just don't have heart anymore imo.... I miss buying an album and being taken on a euphoric journey, by the last song my mind is blown without drugs. Very few bands still do that for me.

I really appreciate the honesty and evenness in this video. Good job.

Great analysis!

I feel like Metallica "sellout" effect worked from them. They've become more well-known than all of 80's thrash bands (even outlast them) and their biggest hits are from the black album & ironically Fade to Black lol Their "sellout" effect is also a gateway for people to discover them & metal music. I started listening to them & metal all because of the black album.

@gx1tar1er

11 ай бұрын

The truth is all big 4 thrash sold out after the 80's anyway lol

@Job.Well.Done_01

11 ай бұрын

I remember their ‘sellout’ era around 1995. I didn’t grow up with their 80’s influence so I didn’t understand what selling out meant . This was Southern California in the mid-90’s when we had Stone Temple Pilots, Bush, and The Offspring making waves.

@rmv9194

11 ай бұрын

They have not outlast any of the big four, they are still playing. I think Megadeth have More albums than Metallica.

@anthonygates7523

11 ай бұрын

Clairo !

@6maniac6metal6

11 ай бұрын

@@rmv9194That’s not really fair to compare ‘Deth and ‘Tallica as it’s Metallicas very existence that fuels Dave Mustaine.

as an artist myself I think theres merit to both sides of this well presented video I can totally understand & agree with what you said, that being said I think the easiest & best way to approach this is to be an independent artist sure you dont get as many opportunities but you dont compromise your integrity & you dont be in debt to record labels etc love your work Finn, keep it up!

Great episode, I like to hear this perspective.

I loved your take on this. I couldn’t agree more

I think the way bmth did it changed the template on how you should go about it for a rock band. Even their early albums were different each time and incorporated diferent genres. At least to me each album still felt like bmth just slightly different.

Been a fan of afi since around 2001 my favorite album will always be the art of drowning. But the first song i ever heard was i wanna mohawk from their first album and though their sound has drastically changed since then i dont believe they have ever sold out every album has been different but really good. I might not listen to them as much as i used to because I've discovered so much music since first listening to them but i still absolutely love everything they do.

I could not agree with you more on every single point you made in this video. Thank you!

great video bro!

I understand that a band seems less special to you after they "sell out". Partly because at an early age we define/identify ourselves with our love an artist & it's so exciting to meet other people with that same passion the same artists when they're "underground". But if you truly love something you should let it go & flourish. We should be happy that our favorite bands "sell out" so that great music reaches more people & continues to influence future generations of artists.

This has happened twice to Architects. They tried going more melodic on The Here & Now and the time fans hated it. Sam said it scared them a bit when it came to making For Those That Wish To Exist which they got called sell outs for again.

@bengreenbank

11 ай бұрын

Architects are sell outs. Absolutely no doubt the change in style is purely financially motivated

@Szczauqa

11 ай бұрын

​@@bengreenbankthey got really popular and I don't think anybody would care if selling out was something different than run of the mill buttrock.

@thomo2127

11 ай бұрын

@@bengreenbankand like that’s a problem are you a sellout if you change jobs because one pays better like tf you think they gonna do they bigger now than ever they having they moment what are you doing😂

Every time I hear the term "sell-out" I think of that SLC Punk clip in the open of the video. Thanks for the videos!

Some artists truly never cared about success and focused on the art….those ones usually have a special place ❤… and when they make it big while not sacrificing their authenticity…that’s truly special

Good points Finn. Very hard either way you look at it. The aloof metal community especially prefer their bands to stay away from the mainstream - even if it means their heroes are having a better life as a result. I guess if those artists are doing better in their careers they become totally unrelatable and so the older fans turn on them. Great vid Finn !

"Sellout" is just a buzzword used by ignorant music elitists. Bands evolve, sounds change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

Thing is ....i sort of understand its often a case of if they want to continue to play and make money they need a certain level of success otherwise they would be dropped, I think it was the Glam metal band Dokken said the ballad was a necessary evil, but when i look back at a lot of glam metal bands there was a lot of stuff that was heavy non commercial. Also I do not know if this is the same for everyone.....but i like a lot of styles of music, metal,punk,indie,dance,electro,country and many more and if i was in a band i would probably get sick of sticking to a style. I do think a full on sellout is a band or artist that really goes against what they actually like to do

Selling out is about wanting hits or money, so they change for a more commercial sound. I think the grandfather of the sell out has to be Phil Collins Era Genesis. And then others like Def Leppard, Metallica, No Doubt, Papa Roach, Linkin Park, Coldplay (I don’t know why Coldplay sold out because they were already commercial), Maroon 5 (I don’t know why Maroon 5 sold out because they were already commercial), Eminem, Jay Z, Black Eyed Peas, Taylor Swift. The polar opposite of sell out is when a band or artists wants to go in an experimental direction, like Faith No More and Radiohead.

Great video! David Bowie was called a sell out for "Let's Dance." I never understood that. He was always changing his sound and look. Yes, it was the most mainstream he had been at that point but he was fascinated with music and wanting to do different things. Nile Rogers was producing everyone at that time and most importantly, the music was good!

@rmv9194

11 ай бұрын

He had those poppy catching tunes way before that album, but he decided to do some experimental stuff because he was being screwed in His contract. After fullfilling contractual obligations and getting a better deal he decided to put out His catchy tunes.

@perfectallycromulent

11 ай бұрын

David Bowie, like Metallica, was called a sell out for every album, starting with betraying twee mainstream britpop for hippy crap, then betraying hippy crap for rock, then betraying rock for glam rock... well, yeah, Outside, no one accused him of being a sell out with that one.

@1UpJohn

11 ай бұрын

@@rmv9194 Sounds like Prince! 😄

@nonyobussiness3440

11 ай бұрын

Did people expect him to stay Ziggy stardust

@1UpJohn

11 ай бұрын

​@@nonyobussiness3440 I've noticed that fans don't want their favorite musician to change a lot of the time but at the same time, criticize them for always sounding the same.

I think a lot of it is the gatekeeping mentality. "I like this band, and they're a niche band, and that makes me special", but the more people like them, the less special these people perceive themselves to be, and they throw their anger back on to the band, crying "Sellout!"

@JokerCat9

11 ай бұрын

It has nothing to do with more people liking them. It’s because the band completely changes their sound and image.

@rasputinsbeard3899

11 ай бұрын

What he's getting at though, is that some bands naturally change their sound and style over time. Does this mean they are selling out, even though their newer sound attracts more fans, and makes them more money in the process? Not necessarily.

@PowerRedBullTypology

11 ай бұрын

@@JokerCat9 The problem though is that maybe these bands when they were not big yet, also already tried to become popular with whatever music they started out with. How do you know they even started out doing it for the music anyway? maybe they wanted girls or money from the get go

Starting out with an slc punk! reference? Finn, you da man.

Great video!

What's so funny about metal purists calling metallica "sellouts" for the 'black' album is that they were also called sellouts for releasing a video for "one" and before that for having "melodic" songs on 'ride the lightning' (including 'fade to black') 😂

@Zeta9966

11 ай бұрын

@@LANGI902with unwashed hair, living with their parents. Oh and they always have to have a cat

I've never understood why people get mad at artists for making money. Is it that great songs come from trauma so we just dont want artists to have a good life for our enjoyment?

There’s some artists I listened to before they popped off and I was just happy for them. It was cool to see more people listen to them

I'll never forget seeing Sugar Ray on The Warped Tour right before they hit. They were amazing and them on HBO's Reverb as well!

"Everybody wants to sell as many albums as possible and sell the biggest showed they can, right?" - 1.12 Literally, No. Not everyone. Some people have just got an urge to make music and will be happy as long as they can do so, regardless of how commercially successful they are. I'm sure they'd probably prefer to be as successful as possible but there's plenty who are happy to settle for enough to get by on and the respect of their peers. I think Chumbawumba are the best example. They sold out, deliberately and on their own terms, for a hot minute then went back to being underground legends.

@d0k0night

11 ай бұрын

OK so they "sold out" then they wen back down small again. And that's respectable, and everyone forgave them? No - once a sellout, always a sellout.

@kohhna

11 ай бұрын

@@d0k0night yeah, they did aye. They did a ridiculously hooky, anthemic, earworm that sold bucket loads well past their usual crusty audience, reveled in their success for a minute, then without missing a beat went back to slagging off the government and generally being the pinnacle of underground credability. If this is news to you I can only guess you're too young to remember the 90s, but I would bet hard currency you already know the song anyway. Todd in the Shadows did a good "One Hit Wonderland" on them if you want to brush up on that chapter in cultural history.

@kohhna

11 ай бұрын

​@@d0k0nightsee also Chill Goblin, "Who is more punk, Chumbawumba or The Sex Pistols?"

Rage alongside the machine*

Henry said it best: you sell out when you do the album you’re told to do. It’s not about money.

selling out is associated with attempts to tailor material to a mainstream or commercial audience. For example, a musician who alters their material to encompass a wider audience, and in turn generates greater revenue, may be labeled by fans who pre-date the change as a "sellout".

There is definitely a spectrum on what selling out is. Being in GAP ad's for a pay day is VERY different than completely changing your sound to fit an algorithm. It's not limiting your audience, it's changing your sound and choosing a new audience. Is it wrong? Maybe, maybe not, but if you completely change your sound you can't expect people to change what they like listening to and follow you on your journey. I think in a lot of cases, calling a band a sell out is similar to saying "this band is not making the music I liked to begin with, so I am moving on from them."

Does anybody remember the Green Day’s Behind The Music where it was basically a “We never sold out” press release? Metallica’s was similar. Or the time and effort Zac Brown spent telling people he wasn’t bro country and that he was friends with Dave Grohl. At the end of the day, none of it mattered. I think the artists were more worried about it than the people who listened to their music.

@HappinessDIY

11 ай бұрын

I could be remembering wrong, but I think both basically saying yeah they sold out, but that’s what they wanted to do. As long as they are doing what they want, who cares?

@Pasadena_Music

11 ай бұрын

@@HappinessDIY Green Day’s was definitely a plea to remind people they stayed true to their roots. Metallica’s was less apologetic.

@HappinessDIY

11 ай бұрын

@@Pasadena_Musicyes. My recollection was about like this: Billy Joe: should we take the money and keep doing what we are doing? Eff yeah. Metallica: we had a minor hit with One, that felt nice. Now we want to be number one and will do what we have to to get it.

@nonyobussiness3440

11 ай бұрын

@@Pasadena_Musicwas Metallica every anti corporate making money. They were huge pretty much early in the career. I don’t recall metal being anti mainstream

@Pasadena_Music

11 ай бұрын

@@nonyobussiness3440 they said “yeah, we sellout. Every seat in the house, every time we play.“ I don’t think it was anti making money.

Great take on this subject and it was cool to see those clips from The Henry Rollins show

Thank you for the slc punk nod in the intro. One of my favorite movies to watch. Selling out is compromising your personal beliefs and morals to make the label happy and just try to sell records and not their message. Many bands change their sound as they evolve and want to do more, sometimes leading to greater musical success. Then there are bands and artists that seem to change their sound simply because it sells more records and compromise their musical wants and desires. If they want to make that change, that is fine, but if they are doing that because the label wants them to do so, then it’s wrong and selling out. When Metallica cut their hair it wasn’t selling out. They were doing what they wanted and times and fashions were changing. You see a lot of people’s clothes and hairstyles change over time. And with that the music they want to make can change over time. I don’t have the same hair I had when I was in middle school. I don’t listen to the same bands explicitly that I did when I was in high school. My tastes in music and thoughts on music has changed a lot over time and expanded, influencing me and outlooks and views on music and life. People change. Their desires change. Their hair changes. But that isn’t selling out. That’s evolving as a person.

I respect Taylor Swift because she very publicly acknowledged shifting from the country sphere to pure pop due to deference and respect she has for the genre. As long as artists are making music honestly, they should be able to play whatever the hell they want. If people like it, great. If not, that's great too.

Just one thing: Maroon 5 were never good.

@urbexjohnny8633

11 ай бұрын

LOL, exactly.

As someone who does art I agree with what is being said. I have a favorite medium but, sometimes I want to jump off and do something other then colored pencils. I want to paint. Sometimes I am bored with the subject I tend to do alot and want to do something different. It excites your creativity. revs you up. Keeps you from a rut. So if a metal group wants to do something different to stretch themselves or get out of a rut that is not selling out. Suffering for your art is not cool either. You need money to survive, pay to go to different venues, ect. Besides dumpster diving for your supper sucks. And if you want to marry or have some kids before you hit 50 you have to have money. Life happens. Creative people need to stretch and experiment and do different things other then the same old thing over and over because they are labeled a certain genre, Being poor or stuck in a rut does not make you legit.

Nice to see a reference to SLC Punk, reminds me of being 13 again. I'm going to go watch it now!

Adam Levine in the thumbnail is too accurate. Maroon 5's first decade or so of material is indeed pretty decent; they sounded like a band, wrote their own songs and brilliantly so, proving the talent is there. Moves Like Jagger changed everything, and since they've more or less given up artistically, relying on dozens of outside A List writers and producers instead 😂

I don't have an issue with selling out per se. I think the whole thing about RATM selling out hit a little different because it was their thing that they were going against what was mainstream and being anti-establishment. That was a big part of their identity. For them to sell out is different than the other artists who have sold out, I guess.

@bullrun2772

11 ай бұрын

Do you not getting it which is that the problem and I think people have of people saying sell it is that well it’s fans saying I want what I want and if I don’t get what I want I’ll throw a fit

I'd love to watch you interviewing John Cooper (Skillet) on your podcast. Great video, by the way!

Finn, I can't even add anything of value or substance as a comment here. You absolutely Nailed It!!! Everything you said is 100% dead on. Great work!

Coldplay have also been accused of selling out after their solid first three albums, but they're excused since they died and were replaced by actors around 2006.

@homeland1128

11 ай бұрын

having two brain aneurysm reading all that mate lol

Being called a "sellout" isnt exclusive to art or music... Ive seen it happened with just about any one of my friends or family who started a business and experienced even the slightest level of success and started living a better and more comfortable life!

The reason I always watch your channel over many other is because you never let your personal preferences get in the way of you saying the truth. Great job all the time man

I consider a band a sell out when they abandon creative vision and integrity in order to force a more accessible sound, especially if it’s to jump on board with a trend. AFI were not jumping onto a trend when they changed their sound. They were helping define one.

I agree with the idea that Rage Against the machine has sold out. I also agree with John Cooper in the beginning. I say that and Skillet nowadays makes some of the most middle-schooler targeted WWE-commercial/Christian-Youth-Festival music! Meanwhile Rage's classics are all anti-establishment bangers! The problem is that Rage Against the Machine has somehow became very pro-establishment in the last couple of years. From their support of corporate industries like Ticketmaster and Fizer to support of overreaching government lockdowns and mandates over what you can and cannot do with your own body. I've never necessary been on the same page and Rage politically (I've always been more a Metallica-Libertarian as apposed to an Rage-Anarchist), but nowadays I don't even see how their message fits their name or their old music. Nowadays Rage Against the Machine is all for cops locking you in a cage and stabbing you with the products of big pharma! John Cooper might make cringy middle-schooler music to pay the bills, but I do respect that he speaks out against big pharma, big government, and the woke university-establishment. There are others like Tommy Vext and Brent Smith who speak out as well (in an intelligent way, people like Kid Rock and Ivan Moody are of course the opposite extreme, but even though they do more harm than good they are still more "rage against the machine" than modern-day Rage Against the Machine!)

Green Day never sold out. They've always proudly worn their punk heritage on their sleeves. American Idiot may have been mixed with more pop, straight-up rock, and alternative influences, but the punk ethos was always there. They've always been doing essentially what bands like The Ramones, The Clash, and The Buzzcocks did years before them, it's just that Green Day figured out a way to make more money out of it than they did.

Glad you brought up Newjeans as an example because it's an interesting case of this whole thing. I actually saw a ton of comments in support of the song along the lines of "The product placement is a bit too blatant for me but I'm still glad you guys are doing it." I'm in the same boat where the chorus sounds too much like a commercial but the rest of the song sounds absolutely incredible. Wish more communities could be that supportive of their favorite artists so they can keep going and make more songs for you to enjoy

I am subbed to you and have NEVER seen one of your shorts in my feed, that feels odd.

Thats why glam metal, nu metal, and butt rock are the best rock genre. Nobody cares if they sellout or not, their music always for mainstream audience…

@ThePunkRockMBA

11 ай бұрын

Butt rock supremacy 🙌

I hate when people call Green Day sellouts. They are more punk than so many so called punk bands in the underground. Just because they wanted to make money with their music doesn’t make them not punk. Green Day is anti establishment and they make that kind of ideal accessible to people in the mainstream.

I think my personal problem with "selling out" is not that bands i like attempt to get bigger and provide some changes in their sound, but that they exchange their uniqueness for a more massive appeal. Think of bands like Slayer, Meshuggah, Cannibal Corpse, Opeth. They've existed for a long time and they've gained a very reliable and loyal fanbase because they stayed true to themselves and to their audience. They did not attempt "pumping" their audience by softening their sound or singing mellow tunes instead. They were grinding and this grind has payed of. They've walked a very tough path and eventually they were given what they deserve - money, recognition and respect. In cases like BMTH and Taylor Swift I have a slight feeling that they're more driven to make any music that will bring them dividends instead of mastering a certain genre. Which, imo, takes a lot more diligence. Feel free to argue. I will value any reasonable counter-argument.

Hope everything's going well finn, I haven't watched one of your videos in a while.

Avenged Sevenfold is one I hear about alot that "sold out." From Matt not screaming anymore to the hail to the king deal. Which if you didnt know sevenfold i could see how it could look like they sold out. But city of evil when matt "stopped screaming" is arguably one of their weirdest albums. How a song like bat country became so big makes no sense to me and i love them and that song. And they literally planned to make a straightforward hard rock/metal album for hail to the king. Their drummer at the time would try to make complex beats for songs and they would tell him no cuz they were trying to be more restained. And then their latest album is just plain weird. An album like that does not garner mainstream success.

@MetalGildarts

11 ай бұрын

FINALLY someone who doesn't worship LIBAD....

@DJones1048

11 ай бұрын

@@MetalGildarts I do like the album. I appreciate them doing something different I guess. But as a sevenfold fan, I wouldnt put it in my top 3 sevenfold albums.

@MetalGildarts

11 ай бұрын

@@DJones1048 the first half sounds like something they would put out, the other half sounds like a totally different band, that's what put me off.

Watching this in Seoul atm and the New Jeans Coke ads are EVERYWHERE

YES NEW VIDEO!

I sold out in the 90's. I turned to Goth, Industrial and College Radio. Then I got old, lost my house and either the music died or I lost my way.