Finding a company that will take you on and give you experience. THAT is the obstacle, especially since everyone wants to be a developer now.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

It definitely is. However, you can do things to get work experience before you interview, which will help you improve your odds of getting a job.

Some times the employeer just needs to take a chance. I've been to plenty of job interviews and the ones that I ended up getting a job from was because they gave me a chance. I wasn't the most qualified but they saw potential in me. I little side-tip. CEOs talk. So going to multible job interviews can be beneficial. I went to a jobinterview at a company (A) which I unfortunately didn't get but I got a call a couple of days later from another company (B) (which I didn't apply for) that then wanted me to come for an interview. I got the job there. I later asked the boss why they chose me and he said that he had talked with the CEO from company A about me and though that company A didn't think I was what they were looking for I would fit better with company B. - The boss also told me that they new I was quite green, but he could see potential in me and that became the start of my professional carriar as a developer going strong for 5 years this month!

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Awesome! Congratulations. I am glad you stuck with it and I am glad someone took a chance on you.

I wish this video existed back when I was starting out 2 years ago, when I couldn't understand what was going on that my job applications never went through. Back then, finding something for me to start my experiences was like finding a needle in a haystack, especially when you live on a remote island in the Atlantic. But because of that first experience that I got from a job, I managed to continue on and found good work at another company later on. For those who are going through job hunting hell, make sure to persevere and continue honing your programming skills, it will pay off well when you have an employer that values you.

He's describing some of the problems that come along with full stack development. Before full stack developers, it was totally normal for developers to write little pieces of an application instead of a whole application. The points raised here about training are pretty relevant to, companies in other countries can train for a lot less money and afford to absorb the cost of training more easily.

As an employer I fully agree with you TIm. The smaller the company the higher the risk is that the investment in the "de facto education" of an inexperienced employee never pays off. If one has the experience one often takes a better payed offer. Can't blame the employee for that... Besides that, I don't care if one has a degree. In many companies a degree is just a basic entry ticket, not more. As Tim said, build a portfolio, maintain it, and show it. Contribute to Open Source projects. Make yourself visible :-)

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing.

@Hmonks

Жыл бұрын

but why would an senior level employee of 10 + year experience would want to work for a smaller company when they know that the pay is not worth their time.

@dirkschannel5817

Жыл бұрын

@@Hmonks That's not the issue here. The issue is that small companies don't want to take the risk of educating people. The payment is not that much a thing of the company size. It's more dependent of the industry the software company is in.

@paulmaxwell-walters8861

7 ай бұрын

In my experience it is more likely to be larger, prestigious companies that tend to be risk averse - if only because they can pay big salaries to poach experienced staff and they get so many applicants anyway (especially FAANG, S&P 500 and Wall Street) There is an adage in business school "Small Companies train, Large Companies Poach from Small Companies". Even the big grad schemes that get the best of the Ivy League, Oxbridge and other prestige university talent still expect some level of experience.

This makes perfect sense. These are good reasons why a company might not want to offer an entry-level position. And some companies are willing to take a chance on someone with no experience. But what I'm wondering is what entry-level is supposed to mean then. If it doesn't mean a job for someone ENTERing the industry, why call it entry-level? Sounds like what they're looking for is a junior developer, but I don't understand why so many companies can't say that, instead advertising "entry-level" jobs with no intention to actually take on people entering the industry. This was the most frustrating thing (and that's saying something) about job hunting after college. Aside from the obvious frustration of finding job listings that you're ineligible for, the prevalence of "entry-level" but requires experience really implies that no one can truly enter (even though that's obviously not true).

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Entry-level is a category, not a single state. So, once you have a day's worth of experience, you are still entry-level. That seems obvious, but if one day does not break you out of the entry-level category, what does? A week? A month? Entry-level is about how much you are able to contribute to a team. For instance, how much experience do you have with git in a corporate environment? Have you worked with multiple team members, contributed to pull-requests, built out new features or fixed bugs, and more? Probably not. How long do you think it would take to have seen the common scenarios a few times from start to finish (get a bug assigned, track it down, create a local branch, fix the bug, test the fix, create unit tests to cover the situation, create a pull request, get the pull request reviewed, apply any suggested changes, redo the pull request, get it approved, get the bug fix tested, get it deployed, and close out the ticket - that's one simple task. There are about 20+ more tasks like that.)? How long do you think it would take to get a handle on the typical code base (100,000+ lines of code is probably the minimum)? How long do you think it would take to learn how to use the language (for example C#) in a "real" setting where bugs in your code take down production and where your coding style has to match what is already in place at the company, even if it isn't how you like to do it? My personal experience is that it takes upwards of two years for a person who has never worked in a "real" production environment before to become comfortable doing the job. A lot of companies like to skip these years, because they are expensive for the employer (they cost the employer more than they get back in value). Where you draw the line at the end of entry-level is a personal choice, but I would probably say 2 years is about the tipping point. After that, you are looking for a junior developer. Mid-level is probably 5-7 years and senior developer really depends on the person. It isn't about programming skills at that point, though. You have to have really good ones, but you need more than just that to be a senior developer, at least in my judgement. But that's a whole different discussion.

@danteho9280

3 ай бұрын

@@IAmTimCorey Thank you sir for the video, as well as explaining what is the general "entry-level" scenario is in the working industry as it tends to be quite confusing when people start looking for internship/entry-levels. As always keep up the good work.

You know programming as a profession is going downhill when the only option available is to do unpaid labor to gain experience (and who knows for how long until you can call yourself a 'junior'). And even after that, you have to compete in an oversaturated market against people with even more experience. And let's not forget the ever-growing outsourcing. Trying times ahead for those entering the profession, that's for sure.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Huh? Unpaid labor to gain experience? I don't advocate taking on unpaid internships. That's not a great solution. I do recommend you build a portfolio to show off what you can do. I guess you could technically say that that is "unpaid labor", but that's not really true since you are doing that work in order to get a job (so it is an investment in yourself). As for outsourcing being "ever-growing" and taking away jobs, that's not as true as you would think. Sure, companies try it and sure, some companies lay off their US workers to outsource the work, but that is not often the end of the story. Usually, that backfires and companies end up hiring back US workers. The thing is, that isn't a salacious story so people don't talk about it as much. It doesn't fit the narrative. US companies that can afford US workers are, in general, hiring US workers. There is less of a problem with time zones, translations, and more.

If an employer want to mitigate their risk, then require a minimum obligation contract.. The minimum time they estimate an inexperienced employee will take to break even for any costs to train someone. If that person chooses to leave before then, they would have to pay back some prorated amount to reimburse the employer's investment.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, it isn't that simple. First, those types of contracts are not typically done in the US. In fact, I have never interviewed for a job where that was something required or offered. Second, if you require a person to stay for X years, you have to compensate them for that. You can't just say "I'll pay you $50,000 for two years but you can't leave". Otherwise, a job offering $45,000/year would actually become more appealing (you have the option of leaving, you have the possibility of getting more money year two, etc.) Third, if you require an employee to stay for two years (or whatever period we are talking about), you are probably then going to be obligated to ensure that they have a job for those two years as well. So, if they don't work out after three months, you are still on the hook to pay them for another 21 months.

@triularity

Жыл бұрын

Technically, the employee could leave anytime they wanted.. they would just have to reimburse [some of] the training costs. If you think of it less of an employment contract and more of a "practical training" contract offered by the employer with deferred fees (separate from, even if related an employment contract) then it makes more sense. Normally those "deferred" fees are paid off/waved over time as a side effect of their employment. The employee is free to quit anytime (but still owing any accumulated fees), to pay off those fees early (and owe nothing to the employer) regardless of whether they quit or continue working (maybe doing so makes them eligible for a raise or something), or simply work until their training fees have been covered. The employer would not be on the hook for anything long term (anymore than any other employee), and could fire them anytime if they aren't working out. Doing so would void any fees owed, and they would lose out on the investment made, the same as if they wasted time/money hiring an already experience applicant which didn't work out. Assuming neither side is trying to screw the other over, it would be a win-win. The employee gets a chance at a job they couldn't have gotten otherwise with no (or little) experience. And the employer fills a position with cheap labor (as the worker has no expectation of being paid beyond the minimum, having no/little experience). For an employee, it's probably a much better option than an unpaid internship. Also, it wouldn't be a standard requirement for any given job offer, i.e. if you have plenty of experience, you could opt out of the training contract and probably still get the job. But it would be an option for those who are high risk for an employer. Almost like getting a co-signer on a loan if one's credit is too low (or non-existent) to qualify on their own.

Your videos are the best I’ve found

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Here is my tips. Create a game. Create a website. Contribute to an opensource project.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Basically, create your own work experience. Good advice.

Hello Tim, as a recent BS and MS graduate in computer science, I can confirm everything you mentioned in this video is a 1000% true.

@IAmTimCorey

5 ай бұрын

Thanks for sharing!

coming from someone who failed so many technical interviews so far I think what really struck to me is also practice what I have learnt so far and use it when given the chance although I don't know where to start but still i will find a way!!!!

@higherpurpose1212

Жыл бұрын

man, the technical interviews I had were okay, it's the technical exams that killed those dreams, I fail all the time!

@shahhaque5242

Жыл бұрын

@@higherpurpose1212 if only there is a way if I can beat them I mean the feedback I got was brutal and just soul crushing but even then I can't give up...

@higherpurpose1212

Жыл бұрын

@@shahhaque5242 I understand bro, it's disheartening and depressing at times, imagine the job that I'm after at the tip of my hand, only to disappear due to failed tech exams, it's always like that.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Trying to identify a good candidate is tough. I don't think that the technical interviews/tests/evaluations are typically that good, but I can empathize with businesses trying to identify good candidates. The key when going through something like that is to remember that the test is not representative of the job (almost ever), and that the existing employees probably wouldn't do well on it either. It isn't a reflection on you. Celebrate the successes and try to let the failures go.

@higherpurpose1212

Жыл бұрын

@@IAmTimCorey it is demoralizing, and if you see jobs advertised by the same agencies, you will be stopped by thoughts of being stupid since these agencies know you failed the tech exam already.

Hello Tim, By any chance once we finish our app how do we implement payments. Do you have a course? Is using 3rd parties always the way to go

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

I don't have a course on that yet, but yes, a third part is the way to go. You really have to. Even if you build your own cart (which is fine, although not necessary), you still need to use a system like Stripe to take the payments. You cannot (and should not) take the credit cards yourself.

Hi tim, I have a question plz, can you plz make Video about IObserval and IObserver? After that about ReactiveUI? Now i see alot of Comapies start using this concept and you are the best to explain it. Thx

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the suggestion. Please add it to the list on the suggestion site so others can vote on it as well: suggestions.iamtimcorey.com/

Please we need more SQL Server Content and vids please and keep going this channel is great

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the suggestion. Please add it to the list on the suggestion site so others can vote on it as well: suggestions.iamtimcorey.com/

I graduated with a BS in Computer Science in 2008 (14 years ago), and I completely concur. Half of my degree represents being well-rounded, e.g. being forced to take electives in philosophy, astronomy, physics, geology, writing about political topics, etc. The other half that was actually computer science, where theory, math and concepts were taught and tested, not actual programming. Some courses had programming assignments-- which varied per course, and would typically be using Java, but definitely one course that used C. If you want to laugh, lookup 'Standard ML of New Jersey'-- had to use that for two courses. Talk about dead-end.

@codefoxtrot

Жыл бұрын

Reflecting back, a few courses from college did come in handy-- Databases, which at the time we used Sybase, but the concept of a UML diagram and relationships, surely help me design and implement databases better than someone who doesn't understand the difference between a primary key and foreign key. Beyond that, Algorithms course, which was actually a Math course at my school, not a CompSci course, ensured I always keep performance in mind.

@codefoxtrot

Жыл бұрын

I should also clarify -- the majority of my Java experience in college, was writing it in a text editor called 'pico' on a Sun Solaris SPARC server. In case anyone is wondering why I'm a C#/.NET developer!

@codefoxtrot

Жыл бұрын

iamtimcorey > College B.S. in CompSci

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, that's the state of education today. There are a few bright spots, but not nearly enough for what we pay in time (4 years) and money ($100,000+).

@paulmaxwell-walters8861

7 ай бұрын

​@@IAmTimCoreywhilst being a rounded individual is great, I prefer the UK system where a BSc is finished in 3 years (4 in Scotland) and you focus almost exclusively on topics aimed at your subject. Anything else is optional.

One of the biggest BS I'm seeing is companies looking for graduate developer but the list of requirements they should know is for intermediate to senior level, outrageous! Maybe they're looking to hire someone who will be the next Silicon valley CTO. These companies expect too much from developers, I hope one day developers decide enough is enough and quit the corporate world altogether!

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

I get that it is frustrating, but I think you are looking at it from a skewed perspective as well. Companies get to ask for whatever they want. When you were growing up, did you ask for reasonable, budget-conscious items for Christmas (assuming you celebrated) or did you ask for what you wanted regardless of whether it was going to happen or not? Companies get a bad rap (and often deservedly so), but you have to remember that they are just trying to get the most for their money. How often do you go to a gas station that charges more than all the rest? Probably not often. You probably go to the one that is charging the least. Did you know that most gas stations break even (at best) with their gas prices? Gas prices are so competitive, they usually make their money on sales inside the store. Knowing that, shouldn't you pay more for the gas? Of course not. You want to pay as little as possible. So why is it when a company does the same to you, you get offended? When a company lists requirements, they are a wishlist. They aren't going to get it in most cases. Instead, they are saying "this is the ideal candidate". I covered why companies are asking for work experience for entry-level positions. I can definitely understand why. Would you pay for a person to mow your grass if you knew it was going to be six months of you mowing your grass and them watching and actually slowing you down? I doubt it. You would probably want them to start working right away. Why can't a company expect something closer to that? When I hired a new developer, it took six months for them to get up to speed (just to the point of being able to do some work on their own - they still take additional time from me). During that time, I paid over $30,000 and had less time to do other things because I was training them. And that was an easy hire that learned quickly and worked out great. Now imagine that person quit after a year. Do you think I would want to do it all over again? Again, I'm not saying companies cannot be greedy. They can and they often are. However, new developers can also be greedy. They can think that they deserve more than they do. They can forget that someone taking a chance on them is a big deal. They can point out every problem with others without seeing any problems with themselves. Be careful not to fall into that trap.

When I went through uni a few years ago my text book for my c# class was 10 years old

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, unfortunately, that's true. The good news is that even learning 10-year-old C# is still valuable.

Do some POC's of what they are looking for, post them as a CodePen or similar, and link to them in your application. If nobody has the experience, they will pick you because you showed an interest for their business

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

That can be a great solution.

I haven't really come across this in Europe (Netherlands)... isn't this basically a symptom of the North-American Software Dev market being massively overvalued... you get a way higher salary than here, but good luck qualifying for it at the entry level. And companies don't feel comfortable offering less compensation cause it just makes people take off and try their luck elsewhere in a year or two.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Its more a symptom of companies not wanting to invest in training new developers. They want the help right now rather than a year from now.

Is that really true? Collages and universities in America are only 3 years down graded? Wow, your just so lucky because over here I can honestly tell you that subjects are down graded for over 10 years. And there are many many many people here who still wants to go to these universities.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

I’m not sure what you mean by down graded.

My take on the subject: For programming you can make the experience yourself. If you didnt do so it means you do not like IT Dev as a hobby. If it is not a hobby you are not in it for a long term.

@hidesbehindpseudonym1920

Жыл бұрын

This doesn't apply to all fields, maybe to development, Even still employers prefer official internships over self-guided projects or open source contributions.

@marvelcz8974

Жыл бұрын

@@hidesbehindpseudonym1920 Thats why i have mentioned "For programming" part. From my experience everyone competent looks at value and not at what led you to do it.

@higherpurpose1212

Жыл бұрын

you can have experience from a hobby, but that doesn't give you enough skills to apply to the real world, IMO. I've seen people struggle with code because what they know as a hobbyist does not translate to corporate code infrastructure.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

You can definitely get experience on your own. You just need to make sure you pattern it as closely to the real world as possible.

I don't know why anyone would go into a field when there is no opportunity. All anyone hires for are senior level people with between 5 and 10+ years experience. You mentioned creating a portfolio that demonstrates your skills and knowledge. How is that going to get you 5 years work experience? because no one hires anyone with less than that. I have been two years trying to find paid employment in the data analytics and BI space and all I am hearing from are senior level positions. It is a complete waste of time and money to try to get a job in this field.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

There definitely are opportunities in software development for new development. You might need to change where you are looking or improve your resume. One thing people do is they try to use the same resume for every job. That almost guarantees you will not be selected for a job. You need to customize your resume for the job. Also, your portfolio can absolutely give you years of experience without being employed. You just need to actually show that level of experience in your portfolio items.

But thats funny concerning junior become mid, mids become seniors and seniors become project managers or leads or whatever. No one is employing juniors and there happens shortage. Same problem as there are less and less kids being born. There has to be equilibrium in being born and in dying, so the same should apply in seniors and juniors otherwise problem is arising on horizont.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

There isn't a shortage of new developers. There are a LOT of new developers. When a company needs to hire someone, they almost always can right away. When they can't, it is because of the restrictions they put on the position. They either open up those restrictions, they go without, or they end up finding someone who fits them. That's the nature of it. And just to be clear, the population isn't shrinking. It is still growing at 1.05% per year (an increase of about 81 million people per year). That is down from what it was of 1.12%, but we are still growing rather than shrinking. Honestly, the best thing for all of us would be if we did start shrinking. Resources are finite (jobs included).

I told me niece when she was studying computer science is to try to get internships so she can get experience.

@hidesbehindpseudonym1920

Жыл бұрын

I'm hoping to transition out of IT at some point or into a different sort of IT role. And now I'm worried about ageism in hiring for internships.

@higherpurpose1212

Жыл бұрын

I'm telling my nephew who is doing computer science to seriously reconsider and do something else instead, not web programming or programming in general. He is not in front of the computer most of the time, gets distracted quite easily with friends' calls, and based on my dev experience, he won't last in this field. I would rather see him be a masterbuilder or a veterinarian or nurse/health care, than be in I.T. , for me if I could do my career all over again, I WILL NOT DO PROGRAMMING!

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

That is a great option.

If a company wants a work experience from an entry-level candidate, could these companies tell us from where to get the working experience? is there any other level before entry-level?. My personal opinion is that you should NOT ask for work experience from entry-level candidates. Thats an red flag for the company. You can know if a candidate is a good fit by asking him to show what he has done (portfolio) and through the interview stages.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

If you have a portfolio (a real one and not a demo one), you have work experience. As for it being a red flag, I don't think that's the case. Like I said, you don't have real-world experience. That's their requirement to get a job. You can get work experience by volunteering for a non-profit, by building a real-world application (maybe even to sell or just open source), or by doing consulting work (which you can do for VERY cheap in exchange for a reference). Just remember that you are going to expect that company to give you training on how to work in the real world. That's going to cost that company a significant amount of money. I hired a developer without experience. I basically didn't get any valuable work out of them for six month, plus I ended up spending a significant amount of my time working with them. That equated to over $30,000 in actual cash that I spent on that employee without a return. Not every company can afford to lose $30,000 or more in the hopes that the employee stays long enough to earn the employer a return on their investment. It is basically a big gamble. Would you be willing to take a gamble of that size, knowing that it won't work out half the time or more?

@lolyasuo1235

Жыл бұрын

@@IAmTimCorey Thank you for your reply. This why many companies do not even hire entry-level (or even juniors) devs. As about the real-world apps, I didn't expect them to count as work experience. Thats amazing!

so what is the point of 4 years college? why not student start from work experience instead of useless college degree

@IAmTimCorey

10 ай бұрын

The point is mostly that some companies like to see that you have completed it. There was a thought that it showed perseverance. There are also some things that you learn that can be valuable, although not nearly enough to justify the time or price.

fuck experience. you can learn anything from scratch. i do not why companies make experience a big deal. i think the main thing is the willingness to learn.

@IAmTimCorey

10 ай бұрын

That's not a great perspective. Do you drive a car? If so, do you remember first driving a car? Were you as competent as you are now? Were you as capable? Not even close. Experience is an excellent teacher. The first time you build a "real" application, it will be a mess. It only gets better with...experience.

What i got from this is that. College is a scam and trade is better

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

That's too broad of a take. College is very important for doctors, nurses, lawyers, and more. College is not very useful for plumbers, electricians, and more. Software development just falls into the second category more than the first. There are benefits to college for everyone (sticking with something for 4 years, working through struggles, learning how to study, certain subjects that become relevant to your career, etc.) The question is if the benefits outweigh the costs ($100,000+, four years of your life, etc.) In the case of software development, the costs usually outweigh the benefits.

My tip is to start an intern and work your way up. In 6 months of working at that company. You will be a full time employee

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

That can be a good option.

Capitalism!!

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

You have a better solution?

@Richard-jm3um

Жыл бұрын

@@IAmTimCorey Maybe I do, either way let's call it what it is, recognize that it is indeed a problem that hurts us all of us as working class, hurts the third world, and the world!

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

We don’t need to have a full conversation here on this, but you are also benefiting from capitalism as well. It seems disingenuous to make a blanket statement about it being bad while benefiting from it.

@Richard-jm3um

Жыл бұрын

@@IAmTimCorey Only the bourgeoisie benefit from capitalism, those that make others work for them and appropriate the fruit of their labor, you and me have to work hard to get whatever little we get, while millions of people live in misery both in the US and in the third world, plus, the world is burning, all so that a few rich people have have Mega-Yachts lol So don't be afraid of calling it what it is, calling it the huge problem that it is!!

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

I'm not saying that we don't have issues in capitalism. The issue of the ultra-rich is an issue, for sure. However, we all benefit from capitalism. For example, you are getting free training here on KZread because of capitalism. KZread was made to make money. Those free videos are paid for by advertisements (capitalism!). I can afford to make LOTS of free content because people purchase my courses (capitalism!). Hard work is a part of life. There are definitely inequalities that should be rectified, but hard work is important. It was my hard work that made this content possible. I worked 60+ hours a week and then took the time to create training content for others. I did that for years before I was able to work my way into independence. From there, I was able to hire three full-time employees because of the work I put in. I love what I do and I love helping people, but if I wasn't financially rewarded for it, I wouldn't be doing nearly as much. Capitalism works. It does need restraint (something some areas are lacking), but it is what has produced the most positive change in this world. You have to look deeper. If you focus just on the bad you see, any system will end up getting thrown out. You have to weigh the benefits against the drawbacks, and you have to do so honestly.

"You'll still be entry-level developer after those 2 years" LOL you can't be serious. Stopped watching after hearing that.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

Companies ask for multiple years experience for entry-level positions. So yeah, I’m serious. You can decide a person isn’t entry-level but that’s what companies are hiring them for. And honestly, being two years into the industry means you still have a LOT to learn.

@bondymagnomous3544

Жыл бұрын

@@IAmTimCorey *some* companies ask for multiple years experience for entry-level positions, and they do so only because they do not want to pay enough, hence they use the words "entry level". A good piece of advice would be to avoid such trash companies, instead of acknowledging a 2-years-experience requirement for entry level is OK. Like come on, it literally says "entry" , i.e., *entering* the world of professional programming.

@IAmTimCorey

Жыл бұрын

That's a pretty poor take. Entry-level isn't a "I've worked one day so now I'm not entry level anymore"-type thing. It is about what you can do. When a new employee who has never worked in a development job comes in, they usually don't know anything about how to work in the real world. Most have never used source control, barely know how to program, don't know how to work within a group of developers, QA, business analysts, etc. It takes at least six months for them to even start producing much value at all. They often do not produce more value than they cost for the first couple of years, if not more. In that time, they still want raises, etc. The company that takes on an entry-level employee and that actually trains them on how to work in the real world has to eat their salary, plus reduce the efficiency of the rest of the team (who is training them) for that first six months. For instance, I hired a new developer (no real-world experience because I believe in true entry-level positions). In the first six months, I got no real value out of them. I did spend a lot of time working with them as well. Ignoring my salary and ignoring their benefits, their cost in equipment, HR, etc. just their salary alone cost me over $30,000 for that six-month period. So I got nothing and paid well over $30,000. The next six months, I got some value but not enough to justify another $30,000 price tag. During that time, they also got multiple bonuses (they did well and I reward my employees) and they got a pay raise at the end of the year. After the first year, they started providing a value equal to their salary. However, that doesn't pay back the $60,000+ (more like $90,000 after all in) that they cost me year one. It isn't until the end of the second year that they start making me more money than they cost. The thing is, at that point, they are also making more money than they were hired at. So no, companies aren't "trash" for using the term entry-level for a person with 2 years of experience. They still are entry level. And not every company can afford to invest/throw away $100,000 on a risk. It is definitely ok to advocate for yourself and want the most that you can get out of a situation. However, you can't do that and then fault companies for doing...the exact same thing. They want the most value for the least money. You want the most money for your value. You don't go to the gas station and ask them to raise the prices because they are too low. You look for the gas station with the cheapest gas (or cheapest gas that is good gas). Companies are the same way. They shop around for the cheapest employees that will do the job they need. You can either decide to work for them for the salary they offer to get experience or you can hold out for a better offer.

@bondymagnomous3544

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​@@IAmTimCorey I think you are mixing up terms "junior" and "entry-level". While I agree it is possible (and actually common) to be junior after having 2 years of industry experience, there is no way in hell someone would belong to entry-level category after 2 years man. You said it yourself -- you hired a guy who had no clue about git, and his programming skills were poor, yet after those 2 years he started producing greater value than his actual salary. Now, imagine that guy would like to change his job after those 2 years of working for you, and some company would be trying to convince him that he is just entry-level and should accept their offer to work for them for the same salary as you offered him when he started working for you, becase hey, he is just entering the world of professional programming. Even though, as you've said, he would no longer be a "burden" but a standard junior developer who basically gives the company more than he takes from it. After all, working 2 years fulltime equates to having approx. 3,500 hours of professional programming. To put that number into perspective -- when I finished my master's degree in CS and started working as a .NET developer, it took me like 6 hours on average to complete a task that was assigned to me. That's like 600 completed tasks within 2 years. And after that, someone would dare to call me an entry-level developer in their trash job offer? Just the thought disgusts me, and I will always insist that people should stay the hell away from offers like that. I mean, ok, during my first month, I had to google a lot of things, such as how to rebase my branch onto origin/master, how to edit a specific commit after I received a code review and fixed the issues, etc., but it really isn't rocket science, so after that first month, I functioned pretty much like the other devs... Like seriously, someone with a college degree should be used to learning things very fast, as that's like one of the very few things that the degree actually shows. I only acknowledge big corporates as an exception to what I've just said, e.g., when I received an offer to work at oracle cloud infrastracture, they warned me that it would take at least 1-2 years before I could complete tasks "solo" as their codebase is huge, so they were looking for someone to stay in that company for at least 4-5 years, which was actually the reason I refused to accept that offer. But I can imagine that if I worked in there for like 2 years, and then I would have gone to a different corporate with a similarly huge codebase, that I'd be called "entry level" in that new corporate, as I would have to go through that 1-2 years long learning process again. But actually, even then the term "entry level" is a bit off, because even someone who used to be a senior dev in a different corporate would still need considerable amount of time to be able to orient themselves in the new codebase, and (I hope) no one would call them an entry level dev.