Saruman knew where the Shire was ever since he secretly got into pipe-weed. It's very fitting thematically that Sauron can't trust Saruman enough to ask him about it, because it might make Saruman look into the Shire himself. Evil can't cooperate.

That's something I love about Hobbits. They're very much like Wales: we pretend it exists, but nobody ever went there

I always appreciate the moment in The Two Towers, when Merry and Pippin have been abducted by the Uruk-Hai and the band of Mordor orcs, and Merry remarks that, unlike Pippin, he spent his time wisely while the Fellowship prepared to depart Rivendell: he was in Elrond's library, consulting the rare maps that showed the regions the 'ship was expecting to travel through.

Any map of Arnor or Arthedain he stumbled across would likely show the area as blank, or perhaps labelled as the King's Hunting Lands. Even if one showed the Shire, it would have been written in the Sindarin equivalent, not likely Westron as the Hobbits used it. Much like asking about Hobbits on Gondor would gave gotten a blank response, lijely no one would equate Hobbit to the legenday Periannath. The Goblins of Gundabad certainly invaded the Shire, but even if they knew it by that name, they're at the far northern end of the Misty Mtns and it's not like Sauron can call and ask them. Saruman knew where the Shire is, but didn't know it's significance, and while Sauron can call Saruman (on the palantir), Sauron certainly can't trust him. I picture the call going something like this... Sauron - "Hey Saruman old buddy, how's it going. Got the King of Rohan under your thumb yet?" Saruman- "Still working on that. Hey would you mind sharing your recipe for black uruks? Breeding these useless goblins with Dunlending women is taking forever." Sauron, rustling some papers - "Oh sure, I've got it round here somewhere. Say, while I'm looking, have you ever heard of a place called the Shire?" Saruman worried that Sauron has found out about his investing money there - "Why? What's your interest?" Sauron - "Errrrr.... no reason really. Hey, it's later than I thought, my show's coming on. I'll get back to you next Wednesday. Gotta go"

In Middle Earth no one knows where anything is. At one point Denethor says Boromir should go to Rivendell and in the movie it is treated like "going to Chicago". But in the book Boromir has to travel forever to find it. No one really knows anything in that milieu and people keep knowledge very close to their chests. In addition there are no newspapers or TV news to say _"and in breaking news a group of Hobbits have started a land they call The Shire"_

@Enerdhil

Ай бұрын

So true. I could never figure out where any place in the Legendarium is without checking the Atlas of Middle Earth maps.

@earlwajenberg733

Ай бұрын

Yep. If you look into the history of geography and map-making, you'll see Tolkien was being quite authentic to a setting resembling the early Middle Ages. Medieval Europeans knew there was a place called India, for instance, but had very little idea where it was. At one point, they had so many guesses, they considered that there might be three Indias, one in Africa, one in the Middle East, and one off in Asia somewhere. ("What's an Asia?" "Beats me.")

@brandtbollers3183

27 күн бұрын

No one from Gondor had Been There for A thousand Yrs.

Also, The rangers actively protected the Shire and knowledge of the shire from orcs, trolls and the like, who would otherwise be sources of information for Sauron. Saruman wouldn't tell because he also wanted the ring.

The Shire was actually conquered by the forces of Angmar during the fall of Arthedain : "The Shire-folk survived, though war swept over them and most of them fled into hiding". Also the Shire-hobbits participated both in the defense of Fornost before the fall of Arthedain and in the battle of Fornost after it. So it seems that the Witch-king should have known at least something about the Shire and the Hobbits. Also, it is possible that the Orcs of Misty Mountains knew some information about the Shire, since they tried to raid it 2747. They were defeated by Bandobras Took, but I doubt they were completely wiped out.

The Hobbits are a complete non entity the shire is really only known for it's beer, it's smoking weeds and it's farmland and a popular elven tourist location (for a time) on there way to the gray havens. Beleriand has two things happen to it in it's history the great sinking of half of it and what saruman did to the shire. That's it no other notable event takes place in that rustic place.

It would be like asking Mehmet II where Somerset is. He would have to look it up. He might have a vague knowledge of it because Bath is there and Roman records can be cross checked with modern maps of the day. But 15th century maps were not that accurate. In fact Mehmet II might find Sommerset easier to find than Sauron the shire.

@ErnestLordGoring

28 күн бұрын

One ‘M’ in Somerset, but otherwise very true indeed

It's also likely that the Hobbits named it The Shire colloquially.

@BanjoSick

Ай бұрын

But it was a shire of Arthedain before.

@istari0

Ай бұрын

@@BanjoSick Doesn't mean it had the same name then.

@herzkine

29 күн бұрын

Thats probably the solution , they vaguely knew there was a shire there but not that IT was Home of Hobbits.

I imagine after learning the secret to the location of Baggins, after torturing Gollum, Sauron unsuccessfully logs into Google Middle Earth😅

@Enerdhil

Ай бұрын

Of course he downloaded Google Maps on the Palantir.

@istari0

Ай бұрын

No, no, no. Sauron didn't even have dial-up in Barad-dûr!

You mean a Palantir doesn't work like Google search? What the hell? 🤣

Sauron would also regard other questions as more important, such as where the Three rings are, and what is being done with them.

No stars in the Michelin guide.

@neildaly2635

Ай бұрын

The Shire, Sauron and the whole Legendarium is fiction. That means it doesn’t exist, apparently like your sense of humor.

@ProtomanButCallMeBlues

27 күн бұрын

@@neildaly2635 the irony is according to Tolkein in universe it actually did, and refused to have it take place in a pocket dimension

To me, this is part of the bigger question of why most people east of the Misty Mountains (except the Lonely Mountain dwarves) are mostly oblivious to life west of the Misty Mountains. Most particularly, it feels like malpractice for the Gondorian stewards to have lost track of Rivendell's location. I would think that Gondor would have considered it a worthwhile investment to send a few cartographers at least as far out as Bree (which is a pretty safe trip in peaceful times).

@brandtbollers3183

27 күн бұрын

968 leagues away .

Lol. Funny that 18 minutes is considered a short video around here. Love it! Enjoy your vacation!

Saurons intelligence capabilities were very suspect. Fortunately.

I think it's also worth noting that the Shire is tiny and militarily insubstantial. Until Gollum comes to Mordor there was no reason for someone like Sauron--who was leading an empire and preparing to wage war against another empire--to care. It would have been useful for foraging parties for an army on the way to the Gray Havens, but otherwise didn't have anything Sauron considered important. They were too small to be a threat, and therefore didn't register in Sauron's plans. We see Sauron make this same calculation in other places, including the final assault on the Black Gate.

@jamesverhoff1899

Ай бұрын

It's also worth noting that Medieval maps aren't like modern ones. Modern maps show you distances at scale, meaning you can fairly easily figure out how far things are from each other. Medieval maps tended to show thinks the author knew about, with scale often depending more on how important the author considered the place than on the size of it. Shapes were more indications than actual charts--see the famous T-maps. And Medieval maps typically included a lot of stuff that was just flat-out made up. Not "Here Be Monsters", but more cities and rivers and things that the author had heard rumors about but never confirmed existed (because remember, we're dealing with a culture where the fastest travel technology is "man on horse", so range was limited). What this means is that even if Sauron DID have a map, it may not have helped him much. He'd have to have an accurate map, which showed the Shire, at something approximating a reasonable scale, AND he'd have to trust it. There is not a single clause in that sentence that's not highly dubious.

'Cos he was actually just some dorky guy named Halbrand 😂

The Shire would have been known in Fornost as they owed their allegiance to the king of Arnor. Thus, their region would have been known to him. With traffic between Rivendell and the Grey Havens, both Cirdan and Elrond would also have been acquainted with the region and through them Galadriel and Celeborn. At the last, there was cooperation between Fornost and Minas Tirith, so it is likely that they might also have had a generally accurate map. It is known that both Gandalf, for more than a hundred years, and Saruman had knowledge of its location, as did Grima Wormtongue through his master. So, accurate maps likely existed in the Grey Havens with Cirdan, Rivendell with Elrond, and Minas Tirith with the Steward. However, while it would likely be marked on the maps, such as we see in the one in the Lord of the Rings, it still would have been nearly useless as all were in the hands of his enemies. The Stewards would have no need of the knowledge in more than the most obscure fashion, so it would likely never be referenced unless by Gandalf and Faramir. This is seen when Faramir and Boromir consult their father concerning the location of Imladris. For this reason, even if he were to consult the Gondorian map, the label would likely not read SHIRE. But would instead list the region as being part of old Arnor, making it worthless. The map of Fornost would be equally useless to the Witch-King because he likely would never have had a need or interest in studying it after the fall of Arnor, and he was forced flee shortly after taking power. And again, the map of the region would not say SHIRE. This makes it likely that Saruman at some point had acquired a decent map from either Elrond, Gandalf, or Cirdan, because it is Grima Wormtongue who tells the Nazgûl how to find the Shire. Saruman would be the only source from which this knowledge could come to him, and Sarumanwould have been welcome in all these places. However, the lack of reliable maps would make the initial portion of the trail difficult, because Gollum had made his home in the Misty Mountains for centuries, and would have only provided enough clues to point them in that direction, perhaps toward the banks of the Anduin where his home was. It was their good fortune that Grima was able to more precisely improve their accuracy, thus narrowing their search.

Great video as always!

I always wondered about this too! On the surface it seems strange that people aren't more aware about the Hobbit communities.

@Enerdhil

Ай бұрын

Holbytlan to the Rohirrim and Periannath to the Elves and Dunedain.

@istari0

Ай бұрын

The Hobbits pretty much kept to themselves and this was a time when most people would have never traveled far beyond the area they were born.

I'm actually going on vacation tomorrow. 😄

Ok. I'm imagining you and your better half skiing in the Alps. Am I close? I'm watching this at 3am. Not in the Alps.

@TolkienLorePodcast

Ай бұрын

lol no, nothing quite that exotic, although we do happen to be near some ski slopes, it’s past the season that we could do anything with them.

@PleaseNThankYou

29 күн бұрын

@@TolkienLorePodcast as close as I get is East Tennessee. We have Ober Mountain in Gattlinburg. That's fun. And right now, all the baby animal are out.

Just thought that things would've been much more interesting (unrelated to the question in the video) if Tolkien were into maps as much as into languages.

Thank you! I feel seen. (As though by a Lidless Eye.) That clears up a lot. It does still bug me that Bree seems to be the largest extant Mannish settlement in Eriador, so I would expect spies of Sauron (similar to Saruman's mundane spies, like Bill Ferny) to have wound up there. Not even because Sauron would have any specific reason to put eyes in Eriador. Just as a contingency, in case _something_ happened in the general region, Sauron would have at least a few low-level agents who could alert his network to newsworthy events and relay back a basic rundown. And if Sauron were to have just one such man in Eriador, I'd expect that man to be in Bree, which unluckily for the Shire has a big Shire connection. But I get maybe that's too modern a philosophy of espionage to expect Tolkien to have had Sauron practice in the Third Age. Mordor Intelligence Agency World Factbook.

@gm2407

Ай бұрын

Funny thing is in the book Hobbiton feels bigger than Bree. It is the most significant settlement in the area.

@istari0

Ай бұрын

Saruman sent spies into the area because of Gandalf's interest in and frequent visits to it. Sauron knew nothing of that and if had heard of Hobbits somewhere along the way, he would have dismissed them as insignificant. Hobbits played no significant role in history until Gandalf recruited Bilbo to aid Thorin's company.

@ErnestLordGoring

28 күн бұрын

I suspect it was in the interest of both the Rangers, Gandalf, and Saruman to ensure none of Saurons spies got to Bree. And if you’re running into Aragorn and a pair of Istari, you’d probably need to be at least a Ringwraith to have a chance.

@ErnestLordGoring

28 күн бұрын

“They have a cartography troll”- Saruman, Gandalf & Aragorn watching a spy from Mordor force his way past their defences

@coreyander286

27 күн бұрын

@@istari0 Eriador in general is important, because it contains the path from Rivendell to Lindon and the Grey Havens. Bree is the crossroads of Eriador (or, since Fornost is a ghost town, a T-intersection), a perfect place to get wind of the comings and goings in the region. I get that if Sauron had heard of Hobbits, he would have dismissed him, but I'd imagine he has some kind of support staff, and one of them might be like, "Halflings? Hm, didn't we have a man in Bree mentioning some creature like that? Wobbits, or something?"

If Gollum was tortured into saying "Shire!", why not a follow-up question... "Where is the Shire?"

@TolkienLorePodcast

29 күн бұрын

What would Gollum have said if the question was asked?

@ErnestLordGoring

28 күн бұрын

Did Gollum even know where the Shire was?

Joshua, have a great vacation with your family!😁👍

No one Calls it That But Hobbits.If You had Said " Anor after the Bridge of StoneBrow.a days ride West.Both the Witch King and His Master would Know exactly Where it Is.

I do think the Shire wasn't this "ultra hidden realm" rather it was just a matter of logistics and intelligence gathering. In the books it doesn't really specify if Orcs in general think Hobbits are a race or just small men, much less where to find them. The only thing that I question is that Gandalf was well known to be affiliated with hobbits, and i would think that at least Saruman should know that just out of curiosity for where Gandalf goes to all the time. I wonder if Saruman having that hobbit weed might've been a nod to him at least having made some effort to gather information. "Oh that's what a hobbit is, basically insignificant aside for having the best pipe weed in middle earth"

Thou art wise, O melon Geek. Your reasoning is sound, as usual. Namarie.

Happy vacation. Have you ever done a video on why Gollum doesn’t age after losing the ring?

@TolkienLorePodcast

28 күн бұрын

I don’t think so, but after 8 years it’s hard to remember for sure 😂

@keeparizonawild156

28 күн бұрын

@@TolkienLorePodcast it feels like one of the few plot holes Tolkien had. Gollum was without the ring for 60 years and is still strong as can be, but poor Bilbo is on death’s door after like 10 years without it. Apparently Sméagol comes from a hobbit like people so they should both have a similar baseline age expectancy. I guess Gollum having the ring for so long is maybe why he was preserved longer.

@TolkienLorePodcast

28 күн бұрын

How is Bilbo on death’s door? I think you’re confusing the movie for the book.

Frodo had the answer in the begining but Gandolf over thought it - just hide the damn thing. Saron couldnt find it for thousands of years just floating in a stream and was clueles for half a mellinium in a cave with a gollum. Of course I'm being facetious... It's a fictional story. That's the answer to all the questions...😂

Sauron needs the good guys to exist for a dark lord to exist.. without the fear and the heart of the shire.. kinda the root of it (not a book / movie answer. I am in the works of forging Anglachel , my husband is an underground coal miner; I so wanted to do this ! Wish me luck !

This is as good an explanation as any. Still, I've always considered this as a rather weak plot point. Sauron didn't spend much time up north but the Witch king did and the idea that HE didn't know about hobbits or the Shire in all the years he spent fighting the Numenorean kingdoms so nearby is a bit hard to believe.

Grid fashion wouldn't have worked ... opfioussly Sauron voss not Cherman. It probably would have, since the Time Zones Sauron would have needed to survey were not spread around the globe, while he didn't need sleep. AND his goblin armies and similar using the night were not everywhere. If he had had anothing like a German (I might be thinking in terms of Prussian) mindset, he would have made a plan for gridwise surveillance, with omissions of territory already known, and he would probably have found the Shire in two to three days. Even big grids would be useful to detect as thing as big as the Shire.

@ErnestLordGoring

28 күн бұрын

As someone who used to catalog Prussian Army grid maps, this gave me a laugh. But there wouldn’t be any map index or anything as to where a location is. And there isn’t even a sign saying “Welcome To The Shire”. He could easily have missed it, by not knowing what he was looking at was the shire unless he spotted a little sign or something. Still, where there’s a whip, there’s a way…

@hglundahl

28 күн бұрын

@@ErnestLordGoring Well, the thing is, he could, with angelic intelligence, have constructed a grid, and intentionally left out all the parts he knew already. If each square was like the size of a quarter of Hobbiton, he could not have missed the Shire. Even if it had been like four times the size of Hobbiton or nine times the size of Hobbiton, he probably wouldn't have missed it. Put Sauron tsertennly vossn't Cherman. A German would have enjoyed scouring all the vistas of unspoiled landscape and peaceful woods and meadows and fields and so on ... I think Sauron's real motive was, he would have hated that. How totally un-German!

The problem is there was no wi-fi in Mordor so no Google Maps!

Was it Grima, Bill Ferny or one of the Arnor rangers who told the Nazgul where to find the Shire or had a map? I can't remember where I heard something like this, maybe one of the youtube videos about the Nazgul's travels...

@natureiscool4364

Ай бұрын

It was Grima

@istari0

Ай бұрын

I'm pretty sure it was Grima; they found him on the road coming back from one of his missions from Saruman and got the truth out of him that Saruman had concealed.

@oldenvye6432

Ай бұрын

@@istari0 Cheers.

@brandtbollers3183

27 күн бұрын

Sarumans Agent is Captured by the Nazgul and His Maps and Notes taken.The orcy looking fellow with Bill Ferny who leave the Inn.after the Song incident.

Thank you for your video. I totally agree with your reasoning and, indeed, I have an addition: Tolkien liked to play with language. All countries in the books have a certain meaning: land of stones, land of the king, land of the singers, etc. giving a hint as to who lives or rules there, or to a specific feature of that land. Regarding the Shire, even Radagast mocks this childish naming. If I was asked direction to the land of sands, I'd probably point southwards across the sea (from my European perspective), as I know that there are great sand deserts in Africa. But if you asked me about "the county" without any further description, I wouldn't know where to point at. This describes well the (self-) isolation of the Hobbits and them not partaking in the tradition of giving things a schientific name in Sindarin. Besides the few people who know about the Shire, I assume that everybody else refers to this patch of land as to the central part of Eriador.

@TolkienLorePodcast

Ай бұрын

I don’t think his remark was about the childishness of the name. He calls it “uncouth” which has more the idea of it sounding bad on the tongue (as it likely would to someone used to Sindarin, Quenya, and maybe with memories of Valinorean).

@J74-PO

Ай бұрын

@@TolkienLorePodcast Thank you for answering. Again, I totally agree. Though I am confident enough to leave my remarks on Tolkien's work, here and there, English is not my first language. The German translation, with wich I am far more familiar, uses the word childish, when Gandalf narrates his encounter with Radagast at the Council of Elrond. I thought, my reference to Sindarin being used as scientific language (as Latin, Arabic and French have been in our world) would be enough to convey this perception of "sounding bad on the tongue". I guess, I was wrong. 😂 By the way, thanks for teaching me this expression. I'll gladly add it to my vocabulary.

The Witchking fought Arthedain and they had a contingent of Halfling archers, so he would know its somewhere in the former Arthedain. Since Arthedain isn't that big, he should have been able to find it. Sauron was quite familiar with Eriador because of his time as Annatar in Eregion in the second age.

@istari0

Ай бұрын

That doesn't mean the Witchking ever encountered or even heard about the Hobbits; they were one small part of a much larger army.

@BanjoSick

Ай бұрын

@@istari0 True, one could write them in way where they got all killed by a army that was not under the Witchking himself. I bet Tolkien would have done that, if he was faced with the question.

@TolkienLorePodcast

Ай бұрын

I addressed this in the video: there were numerous groups involved in that battle, not just the Dunedain of Arthedain.

Just riffing here, but is it anything to do with language as well? Shire is a Middle English word, from an Old English (Anglo Saxon)word Scir. We have a region we know as being ‘Anglo Saxon’ - Rohan. So maybe Sauron would first suspect ‘the Shire’ was somewhere around Rohan.

@TolkienLorePodcast

Ай бұрын

Maybe, but there doesn’t seem to be any hint that he searched there specifically.

@David.Bowman.

Ай бұрын

@@TolkienLorePodcast true, plus Eomer thinks halflings are a myth. So if anyone even asked in Rohan for halflings, they’d probably get the same response

To be honest, I think you're just making excuses for Sauron: - "Sauron has no reason to know exactly where The Shire is": evidently that's not true. He had every need. He would have had the Ring if he'd known where the Shire was. It's the difference between him being Master of all and ceasing to be. So this is a failure of intelligence, which had devastating effect on Sauron; and it's beyond defence. Intelligence is something that you build-up in advance in case of need; not something that you start to build when you need to call on it. - It's also not true that nobody knew where the Shire was, and about hobbits. Halflings are written into the folklore tales of Gondor (like Boromir) and Rohan (like Théodred). Elves (like Gildor Inglorion and his company) met Frodo in the Woody End of the Shire. - In the Council of Elrond, Elrond says, "But in any case, the Road to the Sea is now perilous. It cannot be used. Too often the Elves have journeyed that way in the passing years; and the Enemy may have watch upon it." The Shire is part of this road from anywhere in Eriador to the Havens and the West. That's the road Gildor Inglorion was using, in the Shire, which was supposed to be watched, when he met Frodo and Co. - So the elves knew about hobbits. Dwarves knew about hobbits (maybe primarily from Bilbo, but he was central in the Battle of Five Armies). The orcs in the Misty Mountains knew about hobbits. Tom Bombadil knew hobbits personally (Farmer Maggot and Innkeeper Barliman Butterbur that we know of), Saruman knew of hobbits, and the Men of Gondor knew vaguely about hobbits. Men in Bree knew about hobbits because Bree was a mixed settlement, and on a trading route; so anyone using the Great East Road going as far as The Blue Mountains (Ered Luin) would probably know about The Shire and Hobbits. And of course the Rangers protected the Shire and protected the hobbits. Maybe only Sauron and the Ents maintained a unique ignorance. And Sauron is the guy who above all things wants control. Did Emperor Hadrian know about Scottish people?

@TolkienLorePodcast

Ай бұрын

Tell me you didn’t watch the whole video without telling me you didn’t watch the whole video… Lets start from the top: 1) I said Sauron had no reason to know where the Shire was *before* he knew the Ring was found. Also bear in mind Gandalf tells us that Sauron thinks in terms of power, so he wasn’t interested in the apparently weak and insignificant hobbits. 2) I mentioned in the video that other people’s knew of hobbits, so you aren’t contradicting what I said. As to the location of the Shire I even mentioned that some Dwarves and Elves would know but that Sauron wouldn’t be able to get that info out of them as shown by Dain’s refusal to deal with the messenger who comes to his gates and the fact that Elves hate Sauron. Nothing you said showed that anyone in Gondor or Rohan would have a clue as to their whereabouts. 3) When Elrond says the road to the sea may be watched, he’s again talking about the “now” in which Sauron knows the Ring exists and roughly where it is. 4) I’ve pretty well covered all of this already except the Misty Mountains orcs and Bombadil, but the orcs have no way of knowing where the Shire is or even what Bilbo was, and Sauron certainly isn’t going to ask Bombadil (if he even knows he’s around).

@tsuchan

29 күн бұрын

@@TolkienLorePodcast Thanks for the reply. I did watch the whole video. It would have been disrespectful not to. You did invite comments of things we thought had been missed, you know? I'm only taking part as invited. But we still have a misunderstanding, and I'll take your bullets: 1) The point I am trying to make is that the nature of intelligence is that getting it when you have immediate recourse to it is too late. He had recourse to it when Gollum told him "Shire, Baggins". But he had a *need* to have gathered the intelligence in advance. That's what intelligence is, in the sense we're using it: advance knowledge. It is evident that he needed the intelligence to be ready in advance of having to use it, because the failure cost him his entire existence. This is the most important point of all. But you're going to miss it if you are transfixed with not needing to collect the intelligence it before needed to rely upon it. 2) and 4) it's right that you mentioned some of these things. I gave what I hope was a complete list. And I'm not trying to argue that he could have got the info from Bombadil, or denying that he tried (too late and unsuccessfully) to get it from the dwarves. There were not only elves and dwarves in the battle of five armies. There were not only good people in Bree: some were rumoured to be working for the enemy. Some were rumoured to be half-orcs. He probably had the means to collect the intelligence if he'd prioritised knowing what was going on in every part of Middle Earth. I don't seek to argue that it was the *most* obvious thing. The *most* obvious things do not need intelligence, do they. 3) That's a reasonable interpretation, although I am thinking of the words "Too often". The reason I know of for the elves making that journey was that they are leaving Middle Earth. Were they leaving Middle Earth because the One Ring had been found? I've never had that impression. Actually I often think of Elrond's words, because I would have taken the Ring to Valinor. I doubt Elrond is right when he says the Valar would not accept it: it is their problem, created by one of their own Maiar, taught by one of their own Valar. And very arguably the one other place where the ring could be un-made; because it's not really a story about the heat of Mt Doom but about where who gave the skill... the skill originally came from Aulë the Smith. (This solution just wouldn't have made a thrilling story.)

@tsuchan

29 күн бұрын

@@TolkienLorePodcast Just one more note to cover the part of your reply about Sauron not considering apparently weak and insignificant hobbits: it doesn't take away from his omission and his error just because he wasn't the kind of being to prioritise it. Remember I'm not arguing with the title of the video. I'm arguing with what you said in the video: "Sauron has no reason to know exactly where The Shire is". He can have all the reasons of character/personality/priorities/cares; but the obvious fact is that he did have the need.

@TolkienLorePodcast

29 күн бұрын

@tsuchan @tsuchan 1, 2, and 4-Sauron doesn’t have an infinite capacity to gather intelligence. What you’re suggesting is equivalent to saying that Japan should have gathered intelligence on Peru for WWII-totally impractical and extremely difficult. Why would Sauron pour resources into that when he has powerful enemies much closer to his borders and doesn’t have any reason to think anything beyond that is particularly important? Also bear in mind the half orc in Bree was a recent migrant, and Bill Ferny and anyone else in the employ of Mordor was only recently made so by the Black riders. As to 3, I see no reason why your opinion is better founded than Elrond’s. Considering humans and Elves created the problem (through falling for Sauron’s plot about ring making and capturing him but then letting him basically rule Numenor) and all but solved the problem once but for Isildur’s failure, it really does seem more like Middle-earth’s problem than Valinor’s.

@TolkienLorePodcast

29 күн бұрын

@tsuchan when I said he had no reason, I didn’t mean he had no need. Obviously he did. I meant he had no basis of knowledge from which to figure it out.

Sauron can't be spending all of his time looking for the ring? That doesn't sound right. Why would he even care about Gondor when the ring is up for grabs? I can't believe that Sauron had even a close second in priorities next to finding the ring.

@Enerdhil

Ай бұрын

What do you expect Sauron to do about the One Ring? Go out in search of it himself?

@SNWWRNNG

Ай бұрын

Because every military victory makes the Ring less dangerous to Sauron when wielded by a foe of his. He didn't think anyone could wrest true ownership of the Ring away from him, and so the only danger for Sauron is someone using the Ring to amass armies against Mordor.

@theMightywooosh

Ай бұрын

I believe Sauron was winning without the ring. It was only a matter of time before it turned up, and he didn't need it to dominate. As long as no one found it and destroyed it and from what we know, it's impossible for anyone to intentionally destroy.

@coreyander286

Ай бұрын

Sauron would be more or less fine with someone else finding the Ring, as long as that person isn't Gandalf, Saruman, or _maybe_ Galadriel Elrond or Cirdan, don't you think? And even in the event nobody finds the Ring, like in the "thrown into the sea" scenario, Sauron could still quite feasibly conquer Middle-earth without it. The Ring is merely like an Invincibility Star in _Super Mario Bros._ (And even then, Mario will still get a Game Over if he jumps into a bottomless pit with it.)

@istari0

Ай бұрын

He'd spent most of the 3rd Age with no idea where the One Ring was so he had been working towards a military victory. And he would have one that way but for the One Ring falling into the hands of Bilbo and we know what happened then. While Sauron very much wanted the One Ring once he knew it had been found, he didn't need it to defeat the Free Peoples and he couldn't grasp the idea that the Free Peoples would want to destroy the Ring.

Plot? Jkjkjk

First

The most simple solution is that there were too many locations called shire at the time of the events. And Sauron couldn't know which specific Shire should be targeted. Shire is not a very specific name, many locations could be called shire. (Shire means just area, county)

@TolkienLorePodcast

Ай бұрын

In English it does, but there’s no real evidence that any other people called areas “shire” in Middle-earth.

Third