For the book, we share thoughts on this. They were not a force that could kill, and they would just cause chaos on both sides. For the movies, Aragorn had to weigh the fact that these powerful spirits were only begrudgingly following his orders. After the battle, they practically DEMAND to be released. What if Aragorn had said no? This spirit army could simply run through his like they did the enemy. Yes, they'd still be damned, but do you think Aragorn could really chance that? Plus, Aragorn is a man of honor. After the battle, they did not have a clear path of action yet. They had not decided to march on Mordor, and could still have just set siege to keep Sauron's army bottled up. So in that moment, not knowing what was next, he simply went with what he felt was right and cut them loose.

@TheBigExclusive

Жыл бұрын

This is a good point. Aragon had no true power to control them. The spirits only RELUCTANTLY followed his orders because of the hope Aragon would release them from their curse.

@Frankje01

Жыл бұрын

And still I don't like how they used the army of the dead in the movies. They are jhust so all powerful, it really takes away from the sacrifice of the others during the battle.

@guillaumeinjjuz1744

Жыл бұрын

@@Frankje01 I agree

@Typhus-th6ud

Жыл бұрын

thank you for spelling loose correctly and not spelling lose instead

@user-qe5dw1cd3e

Жыл бұрын

What if Aragorn aked them to help him one more time and they could decide if continue helping him or be released from the oath...?

Aragorn was a man of honour who was accustomed to keeping his promises. Besides, breaking a promise to dead supernatural spirits could have nasty consequences, such as Sauron somehow gaining control over the ghosts. Dead spirits seem to be his thing, and a broken oath could work in his favour.

@stevenredpath9332

Жыл бұрын

Sauron was a necromancer so it was highly likely he could taken control of them.

@Han-rw9ev

Жыл бұрын

@@stevenredpath9332 That's pretty much what I was thinking.

@jamesmccarthy6764

Жыл бұрын

He could have just asked them to help him finish the war from the start. It would have taken them another couple of hours. It was lazy writing.

If i remember correctly, Isildur only called them to a single battle, which they refused, and were thus cursed. After repaying that single battle, at Pelargir, their broken oath was fulfilled, and they could finally be at peace. (I havent watched the vid yet so idk if its mentioned)

@supernautacus

Жыл бұрын

That would make sense, as, he would have wanted help retaking HIS City. Minas Ithil. And as they were afraid of their "former" Master Sauron, they would not have dared face his land. That fits perfectly with Aragorn's actions. It also explains why Isildur took the breaking of their Oath so hard!

@davidhimmelfahrt3732

Жыл бұрын

Wasn't it called the battle of the pellenor fields?

@RandomVidsforthought

Жыл бұрын

@@davidhimmelfahrt3732 Pelargir is a different city

@GumShuro

Жыл бұрын

@@davidhimmelfahrt3732 It's a mistake in the movies

@brantleyfoster021

Жыл бұрын

I think that if Aragorn didn't free them, they would've turned on him.

My theories at least in the movies: 1. They are powerless in Mordor and a chance to be corrupted and tormented. 2. Their power can only go so far. The mountain being their source. (They cannot reach Mordor going back to number 1)

Perfect. I think you made valid points and covered all of them. I also tend to think the Oath-Breakers were perfect against a completely human host like the one at Pelargir (Umbarians and Haradrim) but would have seriously reduced effects against Orcs and other creatures of the enemy who were themselves partly magical and quite used to the Phantoms, Wraiths, Ghosts and creatures of terror that Sauron employed regularly. I think it would have far less effect, and eventually no effect on such races and classes of beings.

@abemartinez9623

Жыл бұрын

Wow that makes sense. Wraiths don’t bother orcs

The oath that the oathbreakers gave was to defend Gondor in it’s time of need not to fight a prolonged war Aragorn gave his word if the oathbreakers come to the aid of Gondor he would release them the oath breakers fulfilled their Vow and Aragorn being a man of honor kept his vow and release them after the battle. If he had continue to use the oath breakers it would’ve been no different than Isildur keeping the ring. Both were selfish purposes.

What do you mean I messed up th title screen?!?

@football24101980

Жыл бұрын

😂

@LeHobbitFan

Жыл бұрын

I don't get it, what's th problem with it?

@supernautacus

Жыл бұрын

No idea!

@reecepip4857

Жыл бұрын

I need to know what to remember 😭

Great points! I can't say that question never bugged me, as it always seemed extremely useful to have an army of ghosts in your back pocket at any time. But then again, like you said, that would be damaging to Aragorn, and to his kingdom. I suppose the lure of power is what tempted me to think of all the good Aragorn could achieve with the undead army of the Oathbreakers... but that's the same line of reasoning we see with Boromir and a few others over a certain object of power : "Imagine what we could do with this, we shouldn't just throw it away!" So basically, using the Army of the Dead, even to free Middle-earth from Sauron, would clash not only with Tolkien's morality and themes, but with the reality of the situation as well, as you've demonstrated.

Definitely never knew most of that stuff about the ghosts, this will be a fine addition to my collection of obscure lotr lore

The problem was that the Oathbreakers had worshiped Sauron during the Dark Years, which is why they failed to fulfill their oath to Isildur in the first place. Bringing them to Mordor to use against Sauron would have posed the possibility that Sauron could return them to their allegiance to him, and then used them against Aragorn and the rest of his forces. Aside from being a very great gamble, it also was stretching the initial oath quite a bit further. They had been summoned by Isildur to fight for him against Sauron's forces, and by attacking and destroying the Corsairs of Umbar, they had done that, and basically fulfilled their oath. Overall, Aragorn continuing to attempt to use the Oathbreakers put at risk all what he was working for, and that was to be recognized at the true King of Gondor.

Do you think Sauron, being a necromancer and all, could have taken control of the Army of the Dead? Or at least disbanded it to some degree?

@supernautacus

Жыл бұрын

Jo Machin...As we know the Witch-King was able (As King of Angmar) to send evil spirits to the Barrow Downs (the Barrow -wights). It's safe to see him having the ability to use ghosts AGAINST the free peoples. It certainly seemed to be done to Minas Morgul as well. And Sauron had a Vampire serving him in The First Age, so, how much more likely is the maker of the Ring-Wraiths to control undead?

@alanpennie8013

Жыл бұрын

Probably not, because of the extraordinary power of oaths in Middle - earth But as Gimli remarked there was a certain incongruity about deploying such "wraiths of darkness" against Sauron.

@supernautacus

Жыл бұрын

@@alanpennie8013 ...I'll agree, and add, ERU would NOT have favored the attempt. In it's own was, it was a worse test than the One Ring. Aragorn KNEW NOT to ever use it! This test, he had to make his own path through dark choices and bring Light from darkness.

@istari0

Жыл бұрын

My thought exactly and I think he would have been able to do so. At one time when they were still alive they had been in his service.

@DarthGandalfYT

Жыл бұрын

It's definitely a possible. Elven spirits that had been "tainted" were in danger of falling under the control of the Dark Lords. Given that the Oathbreakers once served Sauron in life, it could definitely be argued that they retained that corruption in death, and Sauron may have been able to exploit it.

The change to the Oathbreakers in the movie could either be for the "awe" feeling of them sweeping the fields and city, or it could be to avoid hiring more extras for human reinforcements.

@Myth-zd6ko

Жыл бұрын

Or to save time and finish the battle.

@kazansky22

Жыл бұрын

I think it was both a time and budgetary reason.

@brutalaxxe

Жыл бұрын

Probably to save time more than anything. But also because the Oathbreakers had more impact in the battle when they showed up in the film too. Not in terms of them fighting but more for the fact that they were undead ghosts that could strike fear into the Orcs! I can't see a bunch of Gondor soldiers having that same effect. Also it just seems a bit lack-luster to the whole story for Aragorn to encounter the Oathbreakers and to then use them in a less significant battle than that of Pelenor fields. I also can't see Gondor soldiers really following him without clear acknowledgement that he was the actual heir to the throne. It's definitely one of the parts of the lord of the rings Peter Jackson made better than the books.

@michaelbishop662

Жыл бұрын

its cool but i also wfelt like its a cop out tactic. theres no big sway through sheer skill or whatever, they just called up some people and had an easy win

@Chamdar17

Жыл бұрын

@@brutalaxxe Did you not read the books? 1) the orcs are led by the Nazgul and are driven by fear already, why would they be more afraid of ghosts that can't hurt them? Aragorn used them in the only battle where they actually would be useful and he needed the job done QUICK. It was a risky move to employ them at all, and he got them out of play as quickly as possible thereafter. 2) in the books, the arrival of the ships full of soldiers of Gondor, along with the attack of the rohirrim and the death of the Witch King, capped with the dawning of the sun and the washing away of the shadow that was protecting them - all these things annihilated their moral and led to a complete route. It is glorious in the books, whereas in the movie it feels silly and cheap. 3) Aragorn has his banner, his sword, his ring, his guard - he has everything he needs to prove to the men of those lands that he is their commander AND he comes with word of what is happening at Minas Tirith AND he just rescued them from the Corsairs and then dismissed an army of ghosts that only the heir of Isildur could have commanded. There'd be no problem with those armies' commanders agreeing to his plans, which they do. Nah, in the films it was all to save time.

Also it doesn't make much sense to scatter the orcs into Mordor when the whole point of you being there in the first place is to lure out the orcs out of Mordor

@LeHobbitFan

Жыл бұрын

Good point!

@george2113

Жыл бұрын

Ah the trailer parks of Mordor

Also imagine the sheer willpower it took Aragon to control the Dead which inflicted terror upon everything around

@Chamdar17

Жыл бұрын

There's actually specific text regarding this: "But when the dawn came, cold and pale, Aragorn rose at once, and he led the Company forth upon the journey of greatest haste and weariness that any among them had known, save he alone, and only his will held them to go on. No other mortal Men could have endured it..." Friends and foes alike flee them as they travel, and Aragorn is able to keep the ghost-army back from going on ahead of them...

I think the fact Aragon only used them at Pelargier in what effectively is a suprise attack, where their ability to cause fear would have the best impact, as they had the suprise and fear factor on their side is the best evidence that the army of the dead can't hurt people. As even if the Army of the Dead doesn't scare all the corsairs away they would have suprised and scared a good part of them away at least making any fight the Grey Company might have had to to fight a lot eaiser.

I never thought that the oathbreakers could have had much effect against Nazgul and Sauron. I also thought that their oath bound them to that specific land, not all the land of Gondor. I agree they amounted to a kind of magic trick.

You say that the ghosts and the fear they spread are like a "party trick" that only works once, and when the enemy realises the ghosts can't hurt them they stop feafing them. I disagree. In Return of the King, Legolas describes how the corsairs are so afraid of the ghosts that they throw themselves into the water and drown upon seeing them. The fear drives them mad. This to me suggests that the fear the ghosts spread is more than mundane fear, it's some sort of supernatural terror that can only be resisted by those with extraordinary willpower. This is why Aragorn tells the men of Gondor to follow him from afar, rather than simply explaining the ghosts are on their side; the aura of terror the ghosts emit is so powerful that lesser men simply cannot withstand it no matter how much they try Legolas also states that the ghosts had weapons but they didn't use them, for fear was the only weapon they needed. (Note that Legolas doesn't say they couldn't use those weapons, just that he didn't see them use them). This would be an odd thing to say if the fear was an easy thing to counter, in that case they definiteky could use another weapon As for why Aragorn released them when he did, I think it's the collateral damage effect. He wanted his arrival at Minas Tirith to be remembered as a day when the new King saved the city, not as a day when he brought an army of undead abominations and sent his own side into chaos. Also the ships he used needed men to row the oars, and if they all fled or killed themselves out of fear of the ghosts Aragorn wouldn't have arrived on time if at all

@alanpennie8013

Жыл бұрын

Legolas does muse that Aragorn, followed by an army of wraiths, looked like a dark lord himself. I do think the main danger posed by this army of the dead was a spiritual one, the more they were used the more Aragorn, and everything associated with him, was contaminated by resemblance to Sauron.

@stevemcgroob4446

Жыл бұрын

I don't know, ghosts are terrifying so I think the corsairs (who are probably a bunch of unruly pirates) could take one look at something they've never seen before, shit their pants, and run without the need to explain it as supernatural.

@GD-rq4in

Жыл бұрын

completely agree

@similaritiesendhere

Жыл бұрын

You don't bring an army of dishonorable undead to fight against powerful necromancers (Witch King/Sauron). It's not that complicated, guys.

@bruderk4257

Жыл бұрын

@Exantius E Thank you.

(Another reason why you might not want to bring an army of spirits to Mordor…) Sauron is named The Necromancer. Is he able to control the dead? (Like hiding the women and children in the Crypts of Winterfell while the dead-raising army marches on them, in Game of Thrones…)

@SvengelskaBlondie

4 ай бұрын

He wouldn't be much of a necromancer if he couldn't control the dead, if he can control the oathbreaks is up for debate 🤣

Not to mention that Sauron being the Necromancer might would have managed to overcome and control the Oathbreakers. P.S. And remember what at 12:15?

I have always felt like failing to fight against Sauron in Mordor could only be repaid by… fighting against Sauron in Mordor

Great video! You came up with several good points

Open to any lore-based corrections on this, but I would speculate that Tolkien inserted a traditional and conservative Christian message within this narrative. At first glance from this perspective, there's an idea that attempting to communicate with dead spirits is strictly forbidden (even if they are real). However, this host seemed unique in circumstance, more undead than dead, like the idea of interceding for those in Purgatory; only to be done very carefully from a religious standpoint (ie. In Catholicism by a saint and by means outlined by an apostolic church). So in this case, not only did there need to be rightful authority for the process, but the undead seemed to also represent a power of giving grace and forgiveness to lost brethren, which helps the Kingdom of God's message of love spread, thus defeating evil as even those lost, the faithless, and cursed contribute to the cause in a way. The undead here obviously weren't intended to be revered as heroes, but bring glory to a higher message aligned with the idea in 2 Corinthians 2:9.

Nice video. As an in-universe explanation it makes sense. For me though the role of this in the books was in defining Aragorn's character. Now we are nearing the Aragorn-as-king part of the story, it was significant that he only required the oathbreakers to do what was just, even in a time of great need.

See i always thought the Aragon never took them as the Army of the Dead was Aragon is trying to make himself look like a noble and heroic king worthy of sitting on the Throne of Gondor and its kind of hard to sell the idea your noble and heroic to the people of Gondor and Rohan when you have an army of ghosts as its kind of dark and more in line with Sauron and assuming Denethor doesn't self imolate himself he could make a compelling case that Aragon is corrupted and it would be hard to argue against that reason.

@alanpennie8013

Жыл бұрын

"Men of Gondor, would you really overthrow The Steward who lives to serve you in order to hand the kingship over to this lord of ghosts."

I just wanna point that "they're taking the Oathbreakers to Mordor" can fit the cadence of "they're taking the Hobbits to Isengard."

@GD-rq4in

Жыл бұрын

"They're taking potatoes to McDonalds!"

@Thurgosh_OG

Жыл бұрын

To Isengard?

@Salamandra40k

Жыл бұрын

mmmm yes but no. Both of them have 10 syllables, but that doesnt mean they pair to the same melody. The weight is on different parts of the sentences

@ClaytonBigsby93

Жыл бұрын

Not really though. The last word would need to be three syllables in order for the cadence to match.

@splatbubble

Жыл бұрын

the oathbreak the oathbreak the oathbreak the oathbreakers TO Mordor, ers TO Mordor... hmmm

Aragorn gave his word to free them after Minas Tirith. Breaking his word might have create unpredictable consequences. Such as making the army turn against him, and cause untold damage, or worse. Side with Sauron who might give them the promise of freedom, and considering his power i am not sure, if he can't carry it out. In short. Doing that would have been risky as fuck.

great work, thanks!

Very good video about the limits of using the oathbreakers.

I always imagined Aragon leaving the choice to the oath breakers to stick with him after their battle.

@painlord2k

Жыл бұрын

I did it. He could ask them but he could not offer them anything honorable in return.

@upschutt4842

Жыл бұрын

@@painlord2k I figure there is honour in doing more than required.

@sabir1208

Жыл бұрын

​@@upschutt4842 I agree. Especially if you were cowardly as they were the first time around

Great breakdown!

That was a great explanation. As a writer myself, I think your analytical skills of Tolkien's world of Arda is wonderful. I thought the same about everything except the tieback to oaths in the Silmarrillion and the fact of Morgul host figuring it out. I thought the Nazgul might figure it out that they may not be able to harm anyone physically

There is a simpler explanation; Aragorn didn’t know they were going to attack Mordor until after he had already released the Oathbreakers.

@DocStrange0123

Жыл бұрын

Also he must do it, they fulfilled their oath releasing Isildurs curse and are no longer in debt to anyone so he has to release them anyway, also, it's the noble and the right thing to do, regardless of if Aragorn may or may not know future events. He just has to or it would be him that may suffer the consecuences in subtle forms for not being truthful to his word, that's how the Tolkien world works.

@Pub2k4

Жыл бұрын

@@DocStrange0123 I’m just pointing out that the convoluted explanations most people put forward don’t have to be so complicated. However, he could have added a stipulation about the fight in Mordor if he had known, and they would have been bound to that agreement. Now, obviously my comment is more about the movies. In the book, Aragorn only asked them to fulfill their oaths. And since that’s what Ellessar asked them to do, he couldn’t rightfully ask them for anything beyond that. As Isildor’s heir, he’s bound to the oath as much as they are.

"and remember..." what?

Our Question for the past 18 years has been fulfilled. Thanks for releasing us Darth Gandalf. It's time to Rest.

Also, it seems to me that there was a clear message intended in all their strategies, both to Sauron and the people of Middle Earth. That message being that the might of Sauron can and should be overthrown by the strength of the mortal races, not by sorcery. And so it was. The battle of the Pelennor Fields was won by the strength of men and the ring was destroyed by the hobbits. This would have greatly raised the courage and hope of the people of Middle Earth, as they could not rely on the higher powers forever; and by the end, they knew they didn't have to. The power of the other rings diminished and the high elves departed along with Gandalf and Middle Earth was left in the care of the mortal races, with a renewed sense of hope, unity and faith in themselves.

You over thought this. They fulfilled their original oath, and Aragon is portrayed as nearly perfectly honorable. He called upon them to fulfill their oath, and once they did so, Aragon released them from their curse. It was a way to also put more shine on how truely good Aragon was.

Because one does not simply walk into Mordor with an army of oathbreakers.

awesome vid really enjoyed it plus I always thought the army of the dead were cool both within the book and also in the film looking forward to the next vid 😀😀😀😀😀😀

Take an army of ghosts into a realm ruled by Sauron who posed as the Necromancer of Dol-Guldar? Freeing them prevented Sauron seizing control of them and stripped him of that resource in the process. Kept his word is a pretty big deal and meant his own forces trusted him even more as a result.

Great video, Darth Gandalf! I would add one more reason why Aragorn could never (or would never) take the Oathbreakers to Minas Tirith, and it comes from Tolkien's own intentions when writing "The Return of the King". One of the purposes of the final battles of the War of the Ring was to show that Men were ready to take up the mantle of Good from Elves in the Fourth Age. It's the same reason why Peter Jackson's inclusion of Elves at the Battle at Helm's Deep is ridiculous at best. Men HAD to win those two battles (Helm's Deep and Pelennor) with minimal help from the other free peoples - aside from the obvious contributions of the hobbits. It's what sets up the Free Men to reign well in the Fourth Age. Personally, while I think the movies were well made and entertaining in their own right, the changes that Jackson made that detracted from Tolkien's intentions irritated the crap out of me, and I can't fully enjoy either of the last two movies because of it.

I think I recall reading somewhere on a reddit post that it's implied Isildur only asked them to reinforce one battle and that was the oath. Therefore once they routed the forces that besieged Gondor their oath was technically fulfilled. I dunno how true that is so take it with a grain of salt.

I see the Oath breaker like the One Ring. Aragorn made promise and he resisted the urge to abuse power. Which really is the point of LOTR

2:50 "this land" - Smart Aragorn, here it comes in handy that amongst the extensive lessons of lore and Quenya in Imladris he also read four semesters of law. So here with the oathbreakers he cunningly kept a loophole open for possible court battles in the UCLU that might ensue later (United Courts of the Living and Undead)

@antoninuslarpus7107

11 ай бұрын

UCLU, Holy shit lol. I didn't know Mandos's Halls had legal institutions.

A bit strange then to have them in the movie adaptation at Pelennor Fields as well as Minas Tirith.

I have to say, I often wondered why Aragorn didn’t use them in the Pelanor Fields, but I can’t say I ever continued past wondering, and think it through. That makes a lot of sense.

I just thought it would be a bad idea to have an army of ghosts invade a land ruled by a being that was once called "the Necromancer".

If Aragorn did not release them after the battle at Pelargir, this might have made him a Dark Lord himself. What gives Aragorn his moral authority is that he does the right thing.

Great video

Another angle, is that you remember that the oathbreakers also secretly worshipped Sauron and that’s why they turned on Isildur. There is a possibility, however slight, that they may turn on Aragorn if they made it to the black gate.

You forgot to mention one of Sauron’s powers was necromancy and telepathy. Sauron could have potentially telepathic communication to the Oath breakers and struck a new deal of raising them from the dead (possibly against their will) and could turn on Aragorn. I think that might be a chance Aragorn wasn’t willing to take

Actually taking Sauron worshipers to Sauron seems like a dangerous test. What is binding the strongest: fulfilling an oath, or the former god of undeads?

I think Sauron, a.k.a., the Necromancer, would have been able to seize control of the Oathbreakers had they shown up at Mordor. They had even been in his service back when they were still alive. Maybe even the Witch king could have handled them if he'd still been around. In any event, I think it is academic. Aragorn was always going to hold their paths fulfilled after Pelargir. I'm pretty surprised at the number of comments that say he had or should have had other motivations.

Just a thought but at the black gate Sauron might have usurped them. He was called the Necromancer, the dead kinda is in the job description.

If memory serves, elves did not fear the spirits of men (ghosts). If that was the case it may have been the same for orcs (which are corrupted elves). So their effectiveness at Pelennor Fields would be negligible.

another possibility that isn't really mentioned here: Saurons reemergence had a strong effect on all evil things. who is to scythe oath breakers upon nearing the black gate would stay "good". since they already sided with Sauron in life

The problem with these questions is every one thinks things like the eagles and the oath breakers are tools to be wielded.

All I can think about while listening to LOTR video essays is how quickly Aragorn would have lost in Westeros

I always assumed they just wouldn't go and instead attack Aragorn based on the Ghost King's expression.

Aside from Aragorn’s word, it could be the dead mostly have power to instill fear in men. Legolas said he did not fear the ghosts of men. It could also be that Sauron would have greater power to command the dead, considering these dead once served Sauron. Though Sauron probably forgot about them

A fan fiction about Aragorn the dark Lord of the undead would have been interesting.

excellent

The Middle Earth had more than just these ghosts of oathbreakers. Like take example of whatever that was haunting at the Dead Marches. I also remember reading from books, that entrance to Minas Morgul was guarded by some demonic stuff. Its likely Mordor had tons of all kinds of ghost like entities or demons around too. So lets just say Mordor probably would be familiar with that kind of realm, making any kind of ghost stuff ineffective against them. Especially considering, how orcs scared their own overlords more than the enemy. Also, Sauron was once called "The Necromancer".

Another idea is that the smog clouds Sauron sent allowed the Oathbreakers to leave the mountains by blocking out the sun.

Tolkien's Aragorn ; Understands the scope of using the Oathbreakers and releases them. GRRM's Aragorn : Keeps the Oathbreakers because the Lords of Gondor are livid that the King dares to return and interferes with their oppressing and sucking the peasants dry. Then he worries about how much he'll squeeze the Lords after he gave them a good kick in the head. Then worries about how he'll plan the logistics for the Orc genocide. Then gets stabbed in the eye by Faramir for looking at him funny and with Aragorn now a vegetable to be carried around on a litter while Faramir usurps the title of Steward of the King, blames it on "the elves" and has Legolas, Elladan and Elrohir horribly tortured and gruesomely executed. Gimli escapes, shaves his beard and gets ready to go into apocalyptic lawnmower mode and kill a bunch of main characters at the worst possible moment.

Without watching any of the video, my answer: The men of the mountain can’t rest because of a curse that keeps them Mid-Earthbound until they fulfill their oaths and reclaim their honor. Isildor and his bloodline can remove this curse and grant them a peaceful final rest because they are bound in the thickest honor of all men. If Aragorn asked them to fight one battle at the High Cliffs after which they will be freed, only to turn around and suborn them for an additional, bigger battle, ehem, no…I mean suicide run on Mordor’s front door, that would be acting truly shamefully and without honor. Potentially, he’d be digging his own grave and ending his bloodline. The cursed could then have reason to attack him or perhaps the curse could even rebound upon him. Even if nothing terrible happens to him either physically or magically then and there, the rest of Man in Middle Earth looks to Gondor for security, motivation, inspiration and so on and see them as a perfect ideal for how men should behave. Betraying his own words could ruin him as king, make others not want to ride to battle with him anymore for fear he’ll do something similar to them. More than anything else, he’d be completely compromising himself if he does that and Aragorn is far to righteous and honorable to even consider braking his word as a man, let alone as the King of Man.

Yes, the Curseth of Erech don´t have bodies as Nazguls have, but what about comparing them with the Specters of Barrow Downs? Their powers were quite impressive.

@talroitberg5913

Жыл бұрын

I thought the barrow-wights had bodies?

@morriganmhor5078

Жыл бұрын

@@talroitberg5913 Perhaps, but their psychic power afflicted all the Barrow Downs, although their were in their graves.

I mean Aragorn could have instead stipulated that the Oathbreakers had to help him throughout the rest of the conflict as opposed to one battle. Or at the very least stipulated that they needed to help when they reached the gates of Mordor. Assuming they had power there.

What was the game clip from

I love this part in the books because in any other story these Oathbreakers would be the evil force to defeat, but when fighting against an even greater threat, even death "allies" with Aragorn. ( death being one of the gifts of manking, denied to these warriors). The other angle shows that of all the races Sauron likes Men the best, for their capability for evil, for their resourcefulness. Maybe even Sauron is envious of Mens Gift. I always found strange that while he could create nazgul he could not simply ride to these men and try to put them on his side? I think even Nazgul have more freedom of thought and choice that people think despite the rings being obviously used to corrupt then. True Corruption only occurs if you allow it on yourself, its a choice to be evil. And of all the races Sauron respects men more because of this.

Because he barely got them to go to Helm's Deep. It required him promising to release them of their curse if they helped him defend Helm's Deep. Therefore, they ceased to exist as wraiths once that was achieved.

Cos if he had, he would have become an oathbreaker himself. At least, in spirit (no pun intended)

I think there is a point here that maybe was overlooked. Now I'm no expert, but I do believe that the original betrayal concerned what the oath breakers pledged to do on behalf of Isildor. Maybe more importantly in this conversation, that includes what they didn't pledge. The oath breakers didn't pledge to fight side by side with gondor all across middle earth. In fact, the oath breakers weren't even part of the numanorian realm. They were a kingdom of their own adjacent to numanorian land. They pledged to fight on the side of the numanorians in their sphere of influence, and not to join forces with sauron. I can't recall exactly but I also think that some guarantee of autonomy was also offered. So in keeping with the original pledge, I don't think the oatbreakers were bound, or could be bound to act beyond what the original agreement was. By 1) fighting on behalf of the numanorians and 2) seeing saurons forces out of their spear of influence, I believe they had met their agreement,,,, finally.

I always thought that if Aragorn said “Well you’re free to go, but if you’re willing to stick around for a couple more days and take out Mordor too, you would be remembered as heroes rather than oathbreakers” then the oathbreakers could potentially help at Mordor. They’ve been hanging around dick in hand for millenia, what's a few more days to them in exchange for a good legacy? As long as Aragorn agreed to release them regardless, I think that’d have been a good idea. Also, I highly doubt Eru Iluvatar would curse them to stay alive as ghosts until they fulfil their vow if they were physically incapable of fulfilling that vow. I think it’d be pretty absurd if they actually could do no harm, they’d be useless and trapped forever. The condition to end the curse would be a trick, and that’s not Iluvatar’s MO. I think the Oathbreakers truly are the most powerful army to ever exist in Middle Earth, they’re unkillable but are able to kill. I don’t think any army could kill a single one of them. I think that if given the chance to redeem themselves, they’d take it. However, there’s a decent chance they wouldn’t too - as they do seem to “live” by the idea that “the dead do not suffer the living to pass” so they really don’t give a shit about the living and their legends, but maybe given the opportunity, they’d stop talking smack and actually become decent people. It would be a 50/50 if he asked them to fight again, they might say no they might say yes, but either way the potential benefits are high and the potential detriment is minimal.

Another reason it would not be a good idea to bring the ghost army to the black gates would be because it would defeat the purpose of that battle. The reason for the engagement was to draw Saurons forces out of mordor for Sam and frodo. But if the ghosts scared them back in that would put those two at risk.

Also, if orcs are descended from corrupted elves, it is possible orcs retain elves lack of fear regarding the shades of men and wouldn’t be effected by the army of the dead.

Sauron couldn’t just “take control” of the undead Dunlendings. Something like that would take time at the very least and probably require Sauron’s possession of the ring at the most. Their sudden appearance precluded Sauron’s having any interaction with them, and even if he managed to speak to them through the Witch King, I doubt they would have forsaken the (belated) fulfillment of their oath to the King.

What if Aragorn aked them to help him and they could decide if continue helping him or be released from the oath...

The Witch-king was a sort of necromancer, would he have had any control over the Oathbreakers?

I was going to say Aragorn should have said I'll hold your oath fulfilled once you have driven every orc from Gondor, but after listening to your explanation, I changed my mind.

Their curse was for the DEFENSE of Gondor. To Take them any further would risk the geas backfiring onto Aragorn.

In the books when the company is passing the paths of the dead, didnt they find skeleton of Baldor son of King Brego who had both their legs broken and broken sword near them. Maybe you could argue the dead have power in where they were cursed but you could argue they can harm people too.

@DarthGandalfYT

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When Baldor entered the Paths of the Dead, there were still living Men there. They died out sometime afterwards.

1. Aragorn is a man of honour, true to his word. He promised the Oathbreakers to release them from Isildur's curse once they fulfill their oath, and so he did. 2. Even in the days of the Last Alliance, they were afraid of challenging the might of the Dark Lord. I don't think they would follow Aragorn to face the full power of the Enemy.

I wonder why Aragorn didn't ask if the Oathbreakers might voluntarily serve him a bit longer than required. Maybe some portion would have volunteered.

I see your point on Aragorn’s promise but the point still remains that did he need to make that promise or could he have said that he would release after the fall of Sauron

Also Sauron, known as the Necromancer, who knows may be he could take over the Oathbreakers and enslave them

There is a little passage about the Oat-breakers. In the past of Rohan, a drunk prince went up to the Oathbreakers and was found dead later, with broken legs. So, they can kill, or could kill, with or without fear. I don't see the problem with fear of keeping the Oathbreakers, because you just keep them in a separate group, away from the main force. The big problem is they obey only to Aragorn, so he must attend to them continuously in other ways they could act under their own volition or just consider themselves dismissed.

@DarthGandalfYT

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You're talking of Baldor. During the time he entered the Paths of the Dead, it's very likely that there were still Men living there. Only a few years earlier, he and his father found an old man outside the entrance.

And, yes! The Oathbreakers *_were_* a special party trick.

didnt knew Orcs feared ghosts... thanks man nice lore like u said he could have taken them to Pellenor but it would not conclude the battle itself, just delay it also, if Aragorn in a speech in front of everyone calmed his forces down ( wich is way possible like in the battle of the Black Gate wich they are beeing surrounded by thousands and thousands of orcs, WICH IS REALLY REALLY SCARY ) I think it wouldnt be that of a problem to the free peoples, they love Aragorn and would surely fight alongside him and his ghost army. Fear is in your mind, its psychological, you may just need a guidance to bypass it in your head :) I just think they didnt come to Pellenor for any reason in particular... and most of the reasons are valid for sure bro... but for me they didnt came just becuse Tolkien didnt want the story written that way... wich would take most of the fighting and the development of the characters we love in the story to ruin... not becuse they couldnt come, if they are cursed for 3000 years, they could definitly help 1 more day or 2 ;)

Aragorn called on them to fight at Helm's in Rohan, and their oath was fulfilled.

The ghost could be used as scouts that is. But sure, there could be consequences if holding them longer than promised.

Since the oathbreakers were, in life, were allied to Mordor, whats to say that Sauron couldnt take control of them when so close to Mordor?

Cheers, farewell and remember... ...

I think this question came up because of the movie changes.

I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart forever. - Tolkien's Aragorn I hold your oath fulfilled. Go, be at peace. - Jackson's Aragorn I have altered the terms of our deal. Pray I do not alter it any further. -Bezos' Aragorn

What if but in the context of the movie?

At that point the Breaking of the Seige of Minas Tirith had fulfilled the oath and anything more is a breach of the agreement. These men were already dead and just wanted rest and ordering them further than the fulfillment of their oaths would have made Aragorn the dishonorable one.

yeah the oath breakers did insist that they be released

As someone else pointed out in a different video, it's not really a great idea to take an undead army to someone that was known as "the necromancer"

I suspect that Aragorn had t even thought of going to Mordor yet because it was considered suicide. Sauron and all of his evil minions and relations had been severely hampering the growth of humanity. Gondor and Rohan together were significantly outnumbered by orcs and there were mentions to indicate that humanity was mostly expanding eastward away from Mordor. It wasn’t until Sauron was killed and the elves and wizards left that the dark things faded leaving room for the time of Men.

My take, having listened to what you said, is a little different. I don't think you should underestimate the pure terror of the oathsworn. BUT, there are a couple of things in play. "Need shall drive him" to quote the book. Aragorn clearly had no great desire to use the oathsworn, he did it because he had to. There is no reason to believe he had any desire to use them beyond absolute need given the context. Could he? Perhaps. Would the results have been good? Unlikely. Ultimately it would have represented a step away from the style of a good king, to that of a warlord, which, in middle earth, is never a good sign.