Hi Dylan! Interesting video. As someone who worked for many years in the field of lasers and optics, here's my perspective. You mentioned tolerances in the video. I would say that is the main reason why high-end telescopes are more expensive. It's the difference between a decent focuser and a silky-smooth R&P that stays put when you hang a heavy camera setup on the end of it, or a mount that tracks smoothly without periodic errors. Optical tolerances are vital as well, especially for refractors. There's a big price difference between glass grades: not the composition but the freedom from inclusions, bubbles and internal striations, all of which degrade the image if present. Glass from a melt is tested and sorted into grades, which is a time-consuming and labour-intensive process, and there's less of the highest-quality material so it's more expensive. Low-dispersion glass for ED APOs is in high demand and is several times more expensive than standard types. Finishing surfaces to the highest tolerance also takes time and repeated testing. Quarter-wave accuracy is good enough for entry-level telescopes, but getting surfaces to tenth-wave and confirming they are that good takes time and effort. Most high-end scopes nowadays are supplied with test interferograms to prove the quality. Finally, anti-reflection coatings can vary from cheap and cheerful (one or maybe two layers) to multilayers applied to all the surfaces. Coating both surfaces of a lens requires two coating cycles, and coating designs are different for different glass types. All this is not to justify the apparent almost-monopoly of manufacturing that you describe, but ultimately, quality costs money. Whether I (or anyone else) can tell the difference is a whole other question! Does that £100 bottle of wine really taste better than the £10 one? It depends on your experience and your expectations. Cheers from the UK!

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Yes I agree completely :) I’ll take the $30 bottle of wine and lots of it.

@BBROPHOTO

15 күн бұрын

Yeah, but that's the thing... a lot of these telescope companies are using the same Ohara glass (and in Tak's case fluorite) as Canon are, yet are often more expensive. I've done telescope vs high end Canon telephoto glass comparisons and they're basically identical - the main factor is, the Canon glass has faster native optics than the equivalent refractor. If you were to remove the AF and IS in the glass manufacturing and just have the optics, it would be even cheaper. I'm aware Canon are *way* bigger as a company and manufacturing plant than any telescope manufacturer, but it's not like they're making 50,000 RF 400 2.8 lenses.

@jongroubert4203

15 күн бұрын

@@BBROPHOTO Well, actually, that's exactly it - Canon, Nikon, Sony, these big consumer brands are making tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of lenses. The telescope market is MINUSCULE compared to that - maybe a run of 1000 Naglers, and that's it for the year. It's barely worth it for the optics factory to switch over their machinery for that ONE DAY to make the scope stuff, but they do, and it costs money to do so.

@gooe9561

15 күн бұрын

The problem of monopolies is that the lack of competition opens the potential to hostile behavior from the seller. Competition by nature creates the highest quality for the lowest price. Without competition, it's only by luck that the manufacturer has the heart to provide the results of a competitive environment all by themselves. Tldr; monopolies bad.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Excellent point

You know if the inage was taken through a Takahashi because the owner will tell you.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

😂

@Astronurd

15 күн бұрын

😂😂👍.

@giuseppiallegro

15 күн бұрын

Watch out if they are vegan and do CrossFit. 😆

@cmahar3

13 күн бұрын

At star parties, Tak owners love to name-drop the maker of their scopes. Act suitably impressed, and they'll move along.

@Neanderthal75

11 күн бұрын

I feel like it's a good reason for me not to buy one. I just don't want to be part of a cult.

The illusion of competition.

The FTC going after telescope companies with such ferocity when they can’t touch the Silicon Valley heavyweights, heck, can’t even begin to touch the cable company monopolies… Is just laughable. We need a better lobby! 😂😂

@ozicryptoG

15 күн бұрын

Yes, I agree. Dylan for president of the world: "Make The World Great Again". And I for one welcome our new supreme overlord and master.

@philipps3988

15 күн бұрын

Only if he can promise clear skies at all nights for everyone everywhere

@Aerostar509

15 күн бұрын

@@philipps3988 Any politician will promise that for your vote!

you know takahashi by the star glow and star colors. The aesthetics of the stars are on point

Telescope destined for Australia are more expensive due the the magnets needed to stop them falling into the upside down sky

Svbony scopes are manufactured by Kunming United Optics, which also makes various mid to high end refractors for Meade, Orion, Astro-Tech TS-Optics etc. KUO has an in-house brand called Sky Rover. One example of this rebranding is the 115mm triplet APO. Astro-Tech has the well known AT115EDT which Ed Ting reviewed, Meade has the 115mm Series 6000, Orion has the EON 115mm, TS-Optics has the Photoline 115mm and Sky Rover has the 115 APO. I personally own the Sky Rover 115 APO and the Svbony SV503 (which is very similar to the Astro-Tech AT102ED, TS ED102F7) and they’re both great scopes.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Ok so they are part of the big web too huh?

@lixiaoyu1067

14 күн бұрын

@@DylanODonnell Yes but KUO is just like GSO and unlike synta, is currently not a "player" but more of a manufacturer. Many companies get products from them, and resell it, and those resellers compete in price and services. The problem is this will in the long run make companies like KUO much stronger. They are already one of the best ED/APO makers on market. They offer good quality with cheap price...eventually they will sell their own house brand only and make it a monopoly. Companies like AP and takahashi are not good against companies like KUO. They are up in the air and not in touch with the majority of the market. Thus we need other companies to do the same thing. Askar is one of the biggest competitors of KUO. But they took a different approach, and they are the 'player' so they don't typically allow reseller.

@M0unta1n777

13 күн бұрын

@@DylanODonnell Yeah there's no escape haha. Then again just as you've pointed out in the video the market is too small to support too many competitions. Hey at least they're not Synta again 😂

@Neanderthal75

11 күн бұрын

Ed Ting just reviewed the 80mm triplet from Astrotech. Same scope as the Svbony 550 triplet. Minor differences only. Also as you said the 80mm doublet svbony is the same as the Astrotech 80ED doublet. They perform identical. We have a nice and big illusion of choices, but essentially people are buying the same thing with a different paint coat on it.

@Astro_Ape

7 күн бұрын

Dude, the vast majority of the astro shit I own seems to be made by KUO. They're not Taks or A-Ps, but they're fantastic for the price. My AT102EDL & AT125EDL both stand out as having extremely good optics in their class, and my KUO made BA8 binoculars are also fantastic especially the 10x50U & 15x70U.

I own a wonderful Stellarvue refractor, made in Northern California- I even visited the factory and met the owner. But, I don’t know where all of the elements were made.

Hi Dylan! I think this would be a killer concept I'd love to see. Something like Scrapyard Wars but with telescopes. Get a few people from across the globe with the same budget and see who can make the best image/rig!

@videotrexx

14 күн бұрын

Astrobiscuit sort of does this!

Excellent video and background information! Thank you @Dylan!!

The problem isn't just price it's innovation. When there are monopolies, there is a lack of innovation. How about only 3 breweries in the world making beer? Ok, maybe a bad anology - haha!

I was about to make almost this exact video! I'm really genuinely glad you made this video, it's a really big problem in astronomy / astrophotography. We are in a 'telescope wars' era of who can make the biggest refractors. The William Optics 181 refractor is the same price as a Canon RF 800mm lens - that is utterly ridiculous when Canon are famous for having immensely expensive optics, but also factoring in the Canon lens has an image stabiliser, auto focus and is much much lighter. This isn't to assume it's better for astro, but more so that the WO scope is massively overpriced for what it actually is. Brands can release halo products to showcase what they can do, but not at the detriment of releasing sensible products most people can actually afford. Canon use Ohara and Fluorite glass, so the argument that the glass lenses cost a lot is a moot point in this case. The other thing is, if Synta is the parent company of Celestron / Skywatcher, why is it they're not willing to share patents? Is it fear of damaging the brand? Isn't that often the entire purpose of an acquisition? Not just for profits, but to obtain patents the company has? Yet it seems Synta has barely done anything with them but pumped out the same problematic setups. I say this as a Celestron 8" SCT owner, a Skywatcher 8" newt and EQ6R user... the complacency is enormously frustrating. On one side we have companies putting out excessively large refractors, the other end Synta putting out scopes (and in Celestron's case, mounts) that need massively overhauling to be fit for purpose in 2024. I totally agree on the Takahashi side of things. Most people simply don't even have good enough skies to warrant such high end optics - but most like the *idea* of having (arguably) the best optics. I'm also a musician, I'm a drummer - Yeah a DW kit sounds legit, but literally no one but you and other drummers are going to notice lol. The funny thing is, most people who do astro want recognition from other astrophotographers, thus in this case the gear they use is part of the attention. It's why those who are fixated on equipment being perfect often don't like those whose work appeals to the masses vs other astrophotographers.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Glad the muso analogy landed with you too! And yeh I think Sky-Watcher and Celestron are run as logistically separate companies but I suspect a clear mandate for each brand and its product range comes from higher up.

@regeleionescu935

Күн бұрын

You should do your video too, it would be a different and interesting perspective.

Stellarvue is my jam

This was a super fascinating video my man. Thank you! Really enjoyed it!

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Cheers Brian!

Hi Dylan, from early on when I entered this hobby I noticed that Skywatcher and Celestron both had been made by Synta. Even when I had issues with my first mount the Skywatcher EQM35, I had to use the Celestron ticketing system. When I purchased my RASA 8" it was ok but it had some quality issues. It wasn't until the corrector plate got damaged and I had it repaired under warranty, Celestron took such care and tuned the RASA so well it was so much better than when I got it new. There are very few players outside of Synta, Jianxing Ruixeng, Sunny, and GSO for with the exception of GSO are all companies of mainland China! But yet they want to break up companies in the States when 4 companies overseas make almost all telescopes! And the problem is the 20% you mentioned are too expensive because they are actually hand crafted to perfection instead of mass produced with questionable labor practices. Thanks for this video as for a lot of newcomers this will be eye opening.

Great video as usual. So good that you're posting on the reg these days

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Thanks .. I’m trying :)

@davidbaldry5516

15 күн бұрын

Great vid Dylan I look forward to each one! , Question , If you had unlimited funds to build a telescope, what would you make, and why.😊

Dylan, great debrief on this topic! Thank you!🎉

Oh Dylan this is by far my biggest gripe regarding our hobby! Thank You for educating me on what could be behind the huge costs my friend! Wes, Liverpool England.

Loved this - as a relative newbie to the hobby, it provides some perspective. I've been very happy with my Celestron and Williams optics scopes.

Thank you for doing the research! This has been on my mind lately along with everything being on back order

Excellent video Dylan!

Awesome video, spot on. A useful analogy regarding the Tak comments: No one really asks if the car you used to get somewhere was of "high quality". You can get from A to B with a terrible car. The result, as you've put, is that you got to B. However, people do care about the experience of using that car. Even though the result is the same, you will have a much better time in a fancy car. The same analogy applies to a Tak telescope, you may not end up with the best image, but you'll have a better time taking it.

@atarkus8

9 күн бұрын

How so? For example the focuser on my Tak was objectively worse than a feathertouch (which I replaced it with) and they even sell one of their scopes with a feathertouch as an option because I guess even they are aware of this.

happens in every industry, cars, tv and hi-fi for example. worked in the hi-fi, home cinema trade for decades. you would not believe how many "high end" companies use "off the shelf" parts

Tale from the past: Criterion RV-6 EQ Newtonian won Consumer Reports test 1973ish just as the company had its Hartford, CT land claimed for a sports center development. I had one on order then from paper route money. Delivery was near a year (no advance notice). Really good optics but a mount that jiggled while focussing. Soon Criterion moved 5-10 miles west to right near a train crossing.

Dylan, great video. A few weeks ago, I sent a small Sky Watcher Star Adventurer GTI in for some under warranty maintenance. It was not repaired at a Sky Watcher facility. It was repaired by Celestron at one of their facilities in California.

Another boutique brand that you didn't mention, and is often overlooked, is Televue. They're mainly known for their eyepieces, but they also make very expensive telescopes that rival Takahashi. (I've been using a Televue 127is since 2008.) In the more affordable but still excellent range, there is William Optics.

Not to mention the being Aussie tax from some manufacturers. I recall when the EdgeHD first came out pricing in Australia was such that it was cheaper to fly to USA buy the scope and bring it back with you and still have money to spare. Meanwhile at the same time other scope manufacturers were providing prices in accordance with other regions. Not sure much has changed with some of these companies. Up until recently similar thing was being done by Resmed on CPAP machines which sold for a fraction of the Aussie price in USA, and you know it was made by an Australian no idea how that works. Most of my telescopes I have bought 2nd hand for this reason.

Used to own a stellarvue nighthawk. That thing was a beauty and was built like a tank. When the new owner came by to pick it up he was quite pleasently surprised by it as well.

@rolfbuerkle3074

15 күн бұрын

I heard stellarvue started out buying a batch of sharpstar scopes and refiguring/improving them?

That is extremely interesting. I had no idea about all that telescope competition history. Great video my man.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Thanks! I always think everyone knew about all this which is why this video didn't come out sooner.

@GrandmasterBBC

15 күн бұрын

@@DylanODonnell I knew it was a lot of sister brands but I've never seen it broken down like that. Give it 50 years and it will be Celestron / Taco Bell.

@ericmoyer8538

15 күн бұрын

@@GrandmasterBBC-Taco Bell- Yum!

@GrandmasterBBC

15 күн бұрын

@@ericmoyer8538 I know, but it was a Rotal Recall joke.

Hi Dylan, Interesting information. Been in the hobby since the mid 70's and have had many telescopes since then. I bought a 6" f8 Sky-Watcher refractor shortly after they were introduced in the US market. Many were claiming the optics were inferior, so I took my refractor to be tested by Barry Greiner of of D&G Optics and he measured it a 1/7th wave with very smooth surfaces. He told me he had already tested several with poor optics and mentioned that I shouldn't ever sell it. I later bought a Chromacor for it and Barry tested the combination at 1/11th wave. Barry was skeptical about the Chromacor at the time, but his testing convinced him they may work as advertised. I still have the refractor. My other pride and joy is a C11 bought in the mid 90's as a CG11 from Company Seven in Maryland. it's a shame neither get used much since an auto accident that caused significant chronic low back pain.

Excellent video Dylan. I learned a lot. Does Synta manufacture mounts or only the optical tubes? A similar video explaining the mount situation would be most interesting. Thanks for your great work.

Everyone knows that telescopes are expensive because NASA puts screens inside the lenses and circuits inside the metal so we continue to think that the earth is spherical. That technology is very expensive 😂

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Heheh

@philipps3988

15 күн бұрын

The real reason here!!

@joajoajoaquin

14 күн бұрын

AI will make it cheaper. I hope. And globally.

@8gonzalo411

14 күн бұрын

@@joajoajoaquin Do you mean "planarly"? 🤣

@anandarochisha

13 күн бұрын

She's a flat..like a pizza 🍕

Owning a telescope is like wearing an expensive brand. Someone can afford LV, someone not, the point is that it has less to do with performance (to certain extent, of course) of the product. Thanks for the video, interesting to learn the history of the industry.

i think that an explanation of different price telescopes from the same factory is a matter of quality and care taken in the manufacturing process. so maybe a primary mirror is not perfect enough for an expensive telescope but it is suitable for a less expensive one.

What also makes it quite expensive is the relativ low number of produces items. You mentioned smarphones, same with cars - compared to there prices and complexity of the systems. Even if there are 1.000 or 10.000 telescopes (or 100.000 for the cheaper ones) this is nothing compared to million of items in other industries. So it might not pay of to create highly intergated and automated processes. GSO is another big player for reflectors not situated in China. Lots of European and US re-seller brands use their products (Omegon / TS-Optics / Orion / Levenhuk / etc.). But also a lot of barely known companys in the refractor area are sold under these brands. I just found out, that my 4'' "Omegon" refractor is produced by a company called Airy Disk, but could not figure out where they are situated - most likely in Suzhou or Jiaxing next to Shanghai, like all the others (like Sky-Watcher, Sharpstar, ZWO, etc.). So in the end the equipment might originate from the same factory again. What bothers me much more then the optics itself, are the insane prices for simple accessories. 50+ €/$/GBP for a small alluminum ring extender or adapter. 20 for some simple screws. 500 for a usb or power hub. Some of this you can source or improvise for a fraction of the cost elswhere - just not labeled "astro". But some stuff you have no choise. I have at least the same money spend on equipment at my scope then for the scope itself.

Hi Dylan, very intriguing vid! I would suggest (without having read all these comments to see if anyone else says similar) that the disparity you find between the scope ("simple") and the astrocam ("complex") is essentially explained by the... hidden complexity... in the scope (requirement for time-consuming super-precise grinding, polishing, mounting, & QA, etc) and the... hidden simplicity... of the camera (mass-produced circuit boards, off-the-shelf already-highly-developed Sony IMX-whatever imaging sensors, and cnc-milled housings.) Each camera is essentially identical (sometimes even between brands)--save for the software or firmware each brand brings to the table--and the scopes, while identical looking, have unique glass and imperfections in each copy. The telescope is an "instrument" like a guitar, maybe, and the camera is, essentially, an electronic "gizmo," like an effects pedal. It takes craftsmanship to make the former, but less so the latter.

Great video on research. I understood some connections but let us know a lot more of the history. A great idea for a topic.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Thanks .. it’s been bubbling in my head for a while!

You are right. SCT price is not right here in the US. C8 for example, is about $900 in China, but is listed $1299 in the US. I wonder why that would happen. But that's not the worst part. many ed or apo refractors are way cheaper in China, take the AT125EDL (sky rover 125ed) for example, that thing is about $1100 in China but listed $1849 in the US. However for the mass-produced Christmas gift type of scopes, such as Celestron Omni az102 which I've seen many times less than $200 in Costco, that thing is as cheap as it gets. You won't get that price even in China. The problem with western market is that, once someone has the ability to start a company and do stuff, they overcharge their product. Take Stellarvue for example, their stuff is so expensive! Yes, they are a 'US company', yet they don't even make the lens themselves. We need some entrepreneur to make things right. Someone with CNC and design skills and start from scratch and sell at a reasonable price. I guess it's not that hard.

A telescope isn‘t just some simple mechanics. It contains optics like a large mirror which can be expensive to make in an excellent quality. Some schools offer DIY projects though …

Awesome, I was thinking doing a video like this at some point but did not have time for the reseach you did. What is intresting to me is how is Orion such a big player when I know very few people who use Orion products, at least these days. I think I am an anomaly as I have three Orion scopes (ED80, ST80, and 8" Newt) but those were purchased over 7 years ago. My scopes now are the Askar FR300, EdgeHD800, and the Astro-Tech AT115. My understanding is Orion never produced anything designed or built anything all rather they just relabeled anything Synta manufactured. I do like their mounts (Sirius and Atlas Pro) which I still use to this date, of course they are the equivelent of the venerable SkyWatcher HEQ5 and HEQ6. Cheers

For the same statement that you mentioned whether or not an audience could tell the difference in guitars is why I am a bit skeptical of higher end telescopes vs. mid-range. When I was shopping for my first refractor, I decided on an Orion ED-66CF, which is slightly different (Carbon wrapping, and different focuser materials) than a close friend of mines Willam Optics Zenith-Star 66 ED. Now while there are slight visible differences, and larger differences in focusing methods comparing the 2 side by side it is clear to see that these could have come from the same place. One is just braded different, and one has slightly less QC tolerances (Orion) as I could see some manufacturing abnormalities inside the barrel, which don't really affect image quality. To me its almost like the huge drop-shipping craze that worked out for a lot of people in 2018-2021. Were different options for the same product are presented to individual buyers (companies) from factories, and they can select their own different configurations, almost like car buying. The QC is then taken internally after buying bulk and products that don't make it are sent back while the rest are sold online. Also in many cases its like there is some agreement that only one brand will sell a certain model at a time. While the ZenithStar 66 was on the market there weren't many comparable products, but after it was retired, Skywatcher had and EQ66, and after it was no longer available the Orion ED-66CF popped up. Interesting really, and I could be totally wrong but from the outside looking in this is how it appears to me. But at the end of the day the audience, including myself sometimes, couldn't tell whether the image taken came from a ZenithStar a Skywatcher or the Orion. So I opted for the cheaper of the 3 in new form, while the older higher-end used models were still more expensive than the new Orion, to save some money while still being able to perform. What would make a difference however is if I would someday upgrade from my mirrorless primary camera to a dedicated astro cam with cooling etc, for cleaner images, but I'm still able to amaze myself with images that I can produce which was my original goal anyway, learn a skill, have fun doing it, and learn about space as the same time.

A great addition to this discussion would be a flow-chart or family tree graphic so all us visual folk could "see" into this more easily.

What a great vid, Dylan. Thanks for that. These were all salient points that I had never considered. Excellent content, as usual. mid

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

hehe cringe

My reflector is a Celestron EdgeHD, but my refractor is a William Optics, which seems to be popular, but I don't see it mentioned much as a refractor of choice (except the Red Cat, etc.). The WO Zenithstar is a fantastic telescope, I have no complaints.

People really like Stellarvue and the "unobtainium" Astro-Physics Stoweaway, which has a like a lottery system for buyers. Some are waiting for the scope for 10 years. I think Ed Ting has been waiting like 20 years? He mentioned it in one of his episodes. These stuff are really for the hardcore fans out there.

I used to work for a company that manufactured go-to telescope mounts. I was privy to very sensitive information as a result. One such piece of information came from the provider of our optical tube assemblies. I wish I had saved the image..... But, the senior VP of the company shared a picture, of Celestron and Meade telescope tubes in the same drying rack, with me when I was trying to correct their quality on one of their products. He was trying to show me their optical testing setup and it was in the background. They were unmistakeable.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Wow man .. the smoking gun!

@themisanthrope4646

15 күн бұрын

@@DylanODonnell yeah. The company I worked for was selling a knock off of the William Optics, Megrez 110. Their test platform was an optical flat, placed on the floor, in front of a window with a DSLR camera fixed to the focuser.... The telescope was tilted to allow the reflected sunlight to traverse the OTA and they were attempting to measure the curvature of the primary objective. They had no clue what a Rhonchi grate was. That's all irrelevant though. I saw the drying rack behind the guy holding the camera and OTA on top of the flat.

@gooe9561

14 күн бұрын

This isn't a conspiracy. It's probably just cheaper to outsource certain parts, rather than create the tooling to produce them themselves. This is a very common practice in pretty much every industry. Most "manufacturers" are really assemblers.

@themisanthrope4646

14 күн бұрын

@@gooe9561 definitely not a conspiracy. However, different companies have different quality specifications that the optical house has to try to meet. It depends on what the parent company is willing to pay in order to get that quality and how much they're willing to lower their standards. The fact that multiple companies use the manufacturer is just an indication of industrial standardization.

@DylanODonnell

14 күн бұрын

@themisanthrope4646 although the lawsuit did actually literally prove conspiracy.

Beautiful research there Dylan 😄. Glad I didn't get into business management as a youth 🤣. I'll stick to health and safety 😊

Dylan. Telescopes are more affordable now than at any other time since their inception! When I was a kid (and I'm only 55) a three inch achromat on a crappy brass alt-az mount would cost more than a weeks median salary. Now you can buy a five inch on a motorized equatorial mount for the same relative price!

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Good point !

@youtubeuser6067

12 күн бұрын

The demand was NOT so high when you were a child. The industry was in its infancy. Many things are cheaper now than before, like computers and so on. I know some people do NOT care at all why things are cheaper. They just want something and are happy to buy it even though how it became so inexpensive might be due to corruption. Slave labor makes things cheaper. Why care? If you try to live a moral life, you care about how you get things and services.

Thoughful video. Thanks. Everything is more expensive nowadays due to inflation and also slow wage growth compounds the problem. I have no idea what profit margin telescope manufacturers enjoy but the quality and technology is certainly improving at a rapid pace. I have several scopes from makes like Orion, Astro-Tech, William Optics, Askar, Sky Watcher, and (yes) a 1960s vintage Tasco 50mm Japanese scope. I'm beginning to feel like a collector.

I have a Bintel brand 200mm Reflector, yeah it needed a couple of upgrades like flocking and contrasting the mirrors, but at the price it produces very sharp images, it has taught me what to look out for for future purchases. My SkyWatcher 150p out does my $600 ED72 for sharpness also. Price is all over the place for the end results with some optics I have found.

Very interesting video. But you should differentiate between Reflectors and Refractors. What you talk about are Reflectors and yes, Celestron and Mead are the only big players and have a quasi monopoly - hence the high prices. But when we look at refractors the market plays very well - if the for example compare Svbony/Askar vs. WilliamOptics vs. Takahashi you see that very different price layers exist from value to premium to luxury and here the market plays perfectly. But I absolutely agree, with BXT and the likes in the game it is really extremely hard to make a case for buying a higher priced scope.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Yep, although in reading the histories SCts were the reason Celestron and Meade dominated because SCTs were so popular.

Even the few remaining custom dobsonian manufacturers are commanding $$. Sad to see some of them retire without passing the baton.

Good analysis. It's more pleasant to use a scope with good fit and finish, but the end product is the same.

Great topic and a real head scratcher. I have 2 SV Bony scopes and found them excellent value for the quality they provide. Thinking about this, the only way scope prices will come down is via competition. 2 or 3 pieces of precision ground glass, optical tube, and focusing mechanism does not equal $2-$3k Investing in the precision machinery and ROI is a huge factor if the market is only $1B - to get the ROI on the initial investment means that, if the sales are not large, and they are not, then the price has to be high to get ROI and profit to satisfy the cost of making the product. Anyway, my 2c worth of knowledge... it is Friday arvo and time for a drink...

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Happy Friday 🍻

Nice work Dylan. Soooo, PlaneWave?

I'm interested in Officina Stellare. Some of their fast, small telescopes look really cool for a portable rig. Also I imagine the biggest manufacturer will always be who the military uses, they need so many telescopes for their sensing etc.

Great topic, I heard something was going on but didn't know the details. I have always liked William Optic scopes, I own 3 of them. Are they just shopped out to one of the big manufacturers? I hear the build quality is a cut above Askar. Maybe they set the specs and QC for the factory?

You don’t buy a Takahashi cause you need one, you buy one cause you want one, I want and have.

@RaduChelariu

13 күн бұрын

… or three 😂

I think they at least divide off the quality glass and go cheaper on parts for lower ends. Maybe someday they will be in the business of making stellar objects to customers likings :)

It really is the glass processing for the most part that soaks up the cost, as far as engineering the scope goes it's dead simple, I know this from experience because I built one out of 3d printed parts, automotive intake pipe , automotive intake pipe and a random crayford focuser I grabbed from Amazon. It's a 131mm doublet with a 700mm focal length and was pretty cheap to build all things considered.

I nightly question the assumption or the statement that telescopes are expensive. Go price a good high quality camera lens. It will dwarf the price of some of the better telescopes. $13,000 for a 600mm canon lens. I can get a reasonable 600mm telescope lens for 1/10th that price. 1/10th!

Many useful facts in this interesting video for antitrust regulators, amateur astronomers, and wanna-be-buyers of a telescope (like me). My hope is someone will put a quality scope on the market that will force down current prices. Probably wishful thinking? Thanks for taking the time to make this.

Super interesting. Kinda similar to guitar OEM-manufacturing, just that there is less regulation.

I always have to watch to the end so I can hear "Remember, everything is meaningless and we are all going to die". Do you read up on this in the middle of the night while waiting for that perfect shot? You never go into how one manages to change their life to adapt to one's hobby slash profession...

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Hey thanks! Reading the lawsuits is actually wild. It has literal emails and evidence of price fixing and all kinds of stuff.

Interesting topic Dylan. Part of the expense here in the UK is the 20% VAT that the government adds, though if you are a commercial enterprise you can claim it back and of course if you live outside the UK it doesn't apply. The reason that cameras are cheaper than some scopes is most likely the cost of the components, if anything cameras are probably on the expensive side too. The components used in cameras are often used in many other electronic devices as well so sales wise the volumes are huge so they become very cheap. Now look at the corrector plate on an SCT for example, how many other applications use these? Actually I personally believe that mounts are the most overpriced part of an imaging set up, especially the SWG mounts, though these probably will come down as the sales increase. It's still a great time to be interested in astronomy and astro photography, expensive as some of the gear is, most people can afford a reasonable imaging set up, it might not be the best but it will still give results infinitely better than the photos taken decades ago using the world's then leading telescopes, and more importantly it will give the user many hours of fun.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Yeh that’s what I meant when I said “supply and demand” being a price factor and the telescope market being quite small compared to smartphones. I should have made it clear I was talking about economies of scale.

We need the harmonic mount kind of competition in the telescope world

One telescope brand to rule them all and in the darkness bind them. 😂 I love Explore scietific and CF so my Explore Scientific ED 80 became a excellent solar scope with my daystar quark. Clear skies 🍻

The market is consolidating with companies like ZWO now ‘making’ scopes too. Am expecting a lot of secondhand but only a couple of years old scopes to come onto the market as people buy into the burgeoning ‘robotic scope’ market (Seestar is only 1st gen). Outside of the mass market the small batch handcrafted telescope companies will hopefully survive as there will be a potentially larger user base looking to upgrade to larger aperture higher quality OTAs etc.

@rolfbuerkle3074

15 күн бұрын

They just OEM from elsewhere

@allenbaylus3378

14 күн бұрын

@@rolfbuerkle3074 reminds me of the old days - you wanted the apple or IBM dot matrix printer - then you peel off the apple/ibm lable and see that it is an okidata printer. much cheaper to get the okidata printer in the 1980's then the one with the brand label on it. I am looking at an askar to gap between the WO-Z61 and my old Meade 8 inch SCT (which still needs some work done on it). But the Askar 140 APO is way pricy for undetermined glass, in my opinion. Hoping to see price adjustments or discounts offered but I can wait - and that is a huge factor - if people do not buy at a certain price point then they will have to lower the costs or have their retailers sitting on a lot of unsold inventory for a while.

@Xu.123

2 күн бұрын

It just comes from Sharpstar or another name jiaxing guangxue

nice videos .. keep going pls

A very important point not really stressed is that those merger and acquisitions were initially blocked in the US to prevent monopoly formation that ALWAYS leads, eventually, to increase in prices and stagnation down the line. Yet, what happened? 80% monopoly NOT by the original companies that created the technologies in the US, but by a foreign nation that did not create and develop them. Take home message: When you block monopoly formation in your country, what you are really doing is empowering a foreign nation to come in and monopolize it with all the loss of IP and jobs domestically. It is far better to have domestic monopolies than be subject to the monopolies of a foreign nation(s). Sadly, as long as economic traitors are not seen as such and held accountable, this will only lead to more jobs and IP being transferred abroad. Laws need to be passed to charge those who do this with T R E A S O N.

I quite like my Epiphone Les Paul (1960s Tribute Plus, with USA-made pickups). :) As for telescopes, I remember very clearly drooling over Meade telescopes in the 90s when they were king. But a lot changes over time... I also remember the 90s when Apple was so close to bankruptcy, they had to get Microsoft to bail them out (ultimately saving the company).

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

So true !

I own a Bresser 8" dob and I saw that they also go under the Explore Scientific brand.

awesome video and subject to tackle, i always thought telescopes were expensive only because of the mirror since i tried creating a large Newtonian before but i realized halfway that i don't have the mechanical tools and instruments to polish and curve the flat glass to then coat it with silver, which does not double in price if increased the diameter of the glass by an inch like telescope companies regurgitate on the market, if it came down to precision. an ancient egyptian vases cannot be more precise than mirrors we can make for cheap today, that goes back to capitalism, just like apple will sue you if you make a phone with a curved edge. people graduate with a marketing degree to make accessibility to technology and science worse. A 14' HD Celestron whatever names they call it is far cheaper to create with current optical engineering than a $50 android phone from aliexpress. I don't think it will decrease ever again; the PC parts market has exploded in costs even though they produce mor than demand. We have to embrace small factories as you mentioned them, we've been somehow misled to believe these off-brand products are not good products, is it because brands pay youtubers off to review their brands only? i don't know, i just hope i can afford either a telescope or a machine to build it.

Plain wave make some good scopes as do Astro-Physics, Orion Optics UK(Not related), Intes-Micro,

Stellarvue... handmade and quality checked. Great products and service by Vic and company.

I have four telescopes. A GT81 William optics, EdgeHD 8 (Celestron / Synta), an Explore Scientific AR127 (Jinghua Optical Electronics Co., Ltd.), and a Lunt 50. Only the EdgeHD 8 is Synta as far as I understand. I am happy as long as there is some competition, so that quality and price stay in check.

Wish it was great weather all over Australia. Has not been great down in the Illawarra that's for sure. Rain, rain, rain.

re spotting an image by a takahashi : for long exposures, our telescopes are limited by atmospheric seeing, not diffraction-limited optics (beyond about 100mm aperture).

@MrSpychecker

14 күн бұрын

Yeah, the premium you pay for Takahashi Optics is not seen in images (perhaps except the massive corrected image circle of some of their scopes), but when observing visually at stupidly high magnifications. There is no real advantage to buying a TOA-series scope for astrophotography anymore, but the premium quality is noticeable visually.

Telescopes aren't the only expensive items in astrophotography; everything in the field, including adapters, cables, and extensions, tends to be overpriced.

A book you say ... sounds like new fangled technology. 🤔 Perhaps Parker Brothers could do an Astronomy Edition of Monopoly. 🎩

One company that you didn't mention, at least I didn't hear it, is William Optics. I have a small refractor of theirs, and based on that, I would buy other WO products. In watching some other videos on the SVBony scopes, I probably would also buy some of them.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Interesting

Well they need to do training classes on building this stuff if they are going to merge. I had a Nexstar 6SE and I had to sell it, to pay my rent, because I didn't think it would survive on the streets. It focused well, the mount worked pretty good, the dust cap stayed on well. Then I bought another one only a few years later. There's something not right. Focus is never quite right, the dust cap falls off all the time, the pointer could never be aligned to the scope, the mount has at least double the backlash it did before. In 2020 I bought the famous EQ6R pro. I don't know what they did to mine but it slipped all the time on the RA, the backlash was terrible, like I could feel it. The inside parts kept breaking. They claim it was the low power source, no it wasn't. Finally after the 3rd time the board burned up they sent the plate that holds the board and I've never had a problem since. I've adjusted the backlash and guiding is as low as 0.45"/px. Make stuff right or stay home.

I used to build reflectors back 30 years ago using Parkes mirrors and Meade mirrors. The question is this, if your mirror was found to have the slightest optical defect what would you do??? You would send it back. So in order to mitigate that problem there are qa systems in place to reduce this. Namely making sure your optical device is within spec and this costs . Now did it require a doubling in prices since 2020. I think not, and I would say there is a bit of profiteering going on, as these prices were already in place to handle that. I would surmise this whole price movement started with insurance companies, from there costs went up everywhere.

Hey Dylan, I found your latest video on " Why are Telescopes so expensive " very interesting, I lived in the U.K, I have been always Altair Astro Telescope for my Astrophotography, and Ioptron CEM 26 Mount , they work for me, so I am loyal to the brand. I'm going to post your video link on my Facebook page.

@BBROPHOTO

15 күн бұрын

Yeah but Altair are mostly a rebranding company (GSO newts, ToupTek cameras), but they aren't transparent about it. Their customer service is also quite shocking. Unfortunately a lot of the UK community are incredibly loyal to Altair.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Thanks for the reshare !

@corinlewis3073

15 күн бұрын

@@DylanODonnell No problem, Have a great weekend, and clear skies.

Maybe what you are buying with a Tak or a WO telescope is peace of mind rather than a better final image. The worst part of this hobby for me is quality control. Anybody who has waited for an OTA to arrive, then spent night after night trying to solve a problem that was built into the unit during manufacturing will know what I mean. Then there’s the stress of sending it back for a repair. William Optics sit somewhere in the middle for me and have never let me down.

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Very good point. Having local dealers and support and supply chain inventory makes a huge difference.

Properly tuned metal and glass can be a tricky game. Still makes my eyes bleed a bit when I compare the prices from when I was even more of a n00b at this hobby.

I certainly wish buying the high end guitar worked Dylan but I sound equally sh*t. Thanks for the info. I was aware Synta owned everything nearly, but nice to see the timeline of events.

As you say, some brands are made in the same factory though there is a quality difference, let's say that a lens for an Esprit120 that is not good enough maybe will be used for an Askar or other cheaper brand. It's exactly the same as with cars, parts of Volvo, BMW, Mercedes are being made in China although people think they drive european cars, but some parts won't fill the quality that is needed for those expensive brands, so those parts go in cheaper brands. It's the same with everything else, and it was always that way, you will pay for quality

A few years ago when I was getting into astrophotography I bought 2 telescopes from Bresser (they seem to be kind of the same company as Explore Scientific). I bought a 600mm refractor (~€250) and a 10" Dob (~€500). But I could immediately see where they cut some corners, the refractor was obviously a cheap doublet, but it had all the attachments for astrophotography, so it was a great starter scope, but both of the scopes had a very short focusr travel range (~40mm), so you'd have to add, or remove, the extensions sleeves when switching from a camera to an eyepiece, and the finderscopes on both of them were absolute dogshit, light cheap plastic things that were literally blurry when you look through them. Quality control wasn't the best on them either, like some of the pads on the primary mirror on the Dob were out of place, and 2 of them were stuck to the inside of the tube! But I don't regret buying them at all, because I knew they were cutting corners somewhere, and the price was right for me.

@Richard-bq3ni

12 күн бұрын

I own a Bresser 200mm dob and I agree on the shitty finder scope. That's the first on my list to be replaced, but besides that I am quite happy with it

@JoeBob79569

12 күн бұрын

@@Richard-bq3ni Oh, don't think I've ever met another Bresser user before.. we seem to be a rare breed! But yea, I suppose if there was anything to cheap out on I suppose the finderscope is the best place to do it, because it doesn't interfere with the main optics. I just recently put a finderscope from an old 6" scope on mine and it's much better. But yea, it's terrible alright, those plastic adjustment screws are the absolute worst!

the increased posting frequency the last few weeks makes me quite happy! now all I need is for the biscuit to start pumping them out at the same frequency and I'm in astro-nerd nirvana!

@DylanODonnell

15 күн бұрын

Love me some biscuit !

1 arc sec of resolution, is achieved if you can separate 2 posts,4.8mm apart at a distance of 1 kilometer,you don't seem to know how difficult it is to grind and polish glass or lenses at the precision required for 1/4 of the wavelength of light,and that's just the optics

My first telescope was a 60mm Unitron equatorial telescope - after that one I have never complained about telescope prices. Modern telescopes are generally dirt cheap compared to this one. 😊

Well, there you go again, trying to educate me and threatening to make me smarter. I'm going to have to block you if this keeps up! On a serious note, this is a great and informative video (in my mind, one of your best) and a must-watch for all. If you eat the sausage, you should know how it's made and that is precisely what this is. Well done, bloke! As always, look forward to these, even if my visual a** doesn't understand them all.

@DylanODonnell

14 күн бұрын

Thanks Brian!

While I have a Celestron and Meade and SW and ES, I also have TEC and AP and these are of better quality than the aforementioned, but you pay for them.

Thank you.

Very interesting story about the recent 40 years of telescope companies. Such mergers and lawsuits are just held to get the best for.... sorry the best from the consumers, their money. To be honest I would never pay some of the price tags that telescopes have today. My most expensive one is a rebranded GSO 8" RC for 1000 Euro. But that much money it is also not worth due to it's rear end design. Nevertheless I have to give lots of credits to GSO that they are able to produce the mirrors for such small RCs at somewhat low cost. It's not only optics for which the consumer gets ripped off. It is also all the accessories that have a price tag just if there were made from pure gold. Just an exampe: to have a screwed connection from one of my focusers to the imaging train I would either need a M63 to M54 or M48 adapter. For such a small piece of metal with two threads shops ask a price between 60 and 90 Euro. That's totally crazy. As someone who is in another manufacturing branch for 20 years I have somewhat an idea how the manufaturing costs are in relation to the retail price. Therefore I move more and more online purchases from shops in the EU to China. Even though the prices have increased there a lot for customers from abroard as well. But still a lot cheaper than here - even with VAT and custom duties.

I own SCTs and a couple of Apo refractors. -One with, and one without SD glass. I have found the cheaper of these two performs probably to 98 percent of the more expensive, despite the decreased lens quality. That's likely good enough for all but the most discerning amateur skywatchers.

I had no idea that Orion went up against Synta. I wasn’t sure about the telescopes but I knew they shared mounts (Atlas EQ-G / EQ6R)

I wonder the actual price it takes to make the telescopes vs what they sell for.

Low sale volumes in a niece market makes manufacturing costs higher. Microscope prices are similar. A car engine price is comparable to a reasonable telescope and mount and there way more materials and manufacturing steps needed to make a car engine. Scale in manufacturing is a big factor on the economics. Digital Telescope cameras are also ridiculously expensive