You should contact the Jim Henson historian for the company she might know.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

They are hard to connect with.

@claudialove4315

2 жыл бұрын

Hi my name is Claudia

@indekscard

Жыл бұрын

@@claudialove4315 Claudia love deez nuts

@marv685

Жыл бұрын

Ok?

@Razgriz85

Жыл бұрын

Look up what the eyes of a glass frog look like and you'll find your answer.

Honestly, I think it's just Mr. Henson wanting Kermit to be relaxed and calm, almost lackadaisical without being aloof. An illusion of a half-closed eye without an upper eyelid. Kind of like the effect Dr. Teeth has with his shades.

@pamelakern3218

Жыл бұрын

I grew up in the 70s and I'm obsessed with the Muppets. I wondered about Kermit's pupils for decades. 1 day I was driving and was thinking where have I seen that shape before??? And it hit me, the hole punch on hanging products! Now, you've made this video and confirmed my theory! Thank you! ❤

I think it's more likely Jim started with a horizontal slit for a pupil like some species of frogs have. But then thought it looked too much like he was squinting. So he added a round traditional pupil to the center and realized that worked and looked unique.

@Jaheartsjonas

Жыл бұрын

I agree, I'm kinda upset he didn't show images of/do research on other types of frogs (of which there are TONS) besides the one recently discovered that looks JUST like Kermit. Goats also have similar pupils to this too. But yeah omitting that fact right off is confirmation bias-y lol

@therealCrazyJake

4 ай бұрын

As stated in the video, Kermit wasn’t originally supposed to be a frog.

@ryko1478

2 ай бұрын

​@@Jaheartsjonasbut he wasn't a frog, why would Jim based off a frog

Totally buy this theory, Adam. It's like modelmakers kitbashing, just finding whatever's around and trying it.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

Right!

@brickplank_films5189

3 жыл бұрын

@@PuppetNerd I have a theory mabye he wanted the eyes to be straight then he attached them he didn’t like the look of straight lines as eyes so he added circles sin the middle

@zechhur1fnafpoppyplaytime777

2 жыл бұрын

I agree this peg hook theory too! This could be possible!

The peghook theory is very interesting and could very well be possible. Personally, I've always had another theory around Kermit's pupil choice. I think it's a deliberate design choice meant to influence how the audience reads Kermit's range of expressions. Kermit lacks eyelids. So any expression involving closing of the eyes or blinking is off the table. As others have pointed out, Kermit's pupils are "a circle with a line through it". If we treat this as two different shapes overlapping and look at the lines exclusively, their shape and angle mimicks closed eyes. I believe Jim Henson chose a shape that would cover and suggest both open and closed eye positions to portray a wider range of emotions for the character. It's a clever design trick meant to give visual cues to the audience and make up for the puppet's physical design limitations. This approach also gives Kermit a softer gaze and makes him look open and approachable. Just my thoughts. Great video! :)

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

Interesting idea. I just feel like if that was the case, that he would have explored these ideas on other characters. That fact that it began and ended with Kermit makes this kind of idea less likely to me.

@neocelestia

3 жыл бұрын

@@PuppetNerd I can see where you're coming from on that line of thinking. Either way, both theories are interesting to think about. Thanks for the reply :)

@chapterhawk

3 жыл бұрын

Actually you are 100% right and Adam is 100% wrong. So pat yourself on the back.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

@@chapterhawk lol. No reasoning to back this up? Nice! You must talk a lot of politics. Lol.

@neocelestia

3 жыл бұрын

@@chapterhawk Given that there's no confirmed answer to Kermit's pupil shape, it's not really fair to claim that either theory is wrong or right. We can discuss what seems more likely and why, but declaring someone 100% right or wrong without a clear cut answer out there to back it up doesn't really help anything.

Im glad i'm not the only one that made that connection with Kermit's pupils

I have always assumed this to be the case, Kermit's pupils always reminded me of those tabs. Glad to hear an actual expert agree with my private thoughts

This is such an outlandish theory that it has got to be true!

I thought it was just a different take on lizard-like eyes. Usually, they're vertical and Jim just decided to draw them more horizontal for appearance.

@m.maclellan7147

3 жыл бұрын

I was thinking of goats and other animals have horizontal pupils - and if you mixed that with round human pupils ?

@Jaheartsjonas

Жыл бұрын

@@m.maclellan7147 also some types of frogs do have similar pupils to this too, in the video he just showed one example that was recently discovered.

Okay. In order to really test this I would have to ask when did Jim first make Kermit? The Google says in 1955. Pegboard was first used in 1952 but I can't seem to find out when that kind of peg hook was created. But I think it was after 1955. But that's just a guess as I can't really find out the exact date.

I too always thought kermits eyes looked like those peg hook holes. But maybe its much simpler? Maybe when Jim was making kermits puppet he only had enough material to make one pair of eyes wne when he painted the pupil on maybe he slipped with the paintbrush and had one line going straight out of the pupil? He couldnt whipe it off without messing the eye up and he also couldnt make a new eye, so he did the best he could, made the shape symetrical so it looked somewhat natural and repeated it on the otehr eye?

@ubergamer0198

Жыл бұрын

you Suggest Occams Razor as the answer. IMO a very likely scenario

I definitely buy this theory. I would be willing to bet that the item that had been punched with the hole punch was a sticker of some sort, and Henson used it as a convenient self adhesive mask. For example, a lot of craft stores sell sheets of die-cut stickers that are displayed on pegs. The waste area around the stickers is adhesive paper, just like the stickers themselves. This waste area would have had these shapes punched out of them for hanging on pegs. Actually, come to think of it, larger sheets of stickers often have a pair of peg holes on the sides rather than one in the middle, so they can be hung across two pegs. Maybe Henson looked at these and saw "eyes".

That theory is most likely true... BUT what if there was some ping pong brand where there was something like some letters or numbers under the logo and he decided not to use white paint but to use the black paint instead and this is how the eyes got to be? Even if this sounds crazy maybe he was thinking of making the pupils even larger but then he was like "you know what... NAAH let's leave it like that". This is my theory. :D

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

I like that idea a lot too!

I’ve always thought he used one of those hang-tabs from candy packages too. Edit: Great minds think alike.

Well Adam, you’ve done it. One of life’s great mysteries solved. And it sounds like Kermit himself is telling the story.

I always loved how the his pupils looked, I thought they were very unique when I was a little kid. I even had a plushy version of Kermit that I would take with me everywhere I went.

@franknberry333

3 жыл бұрын

Me too! Mine is over 40 years old and he's still on my bed.

I have always had this theory since childhood. I didn't know they were painted, so I thought it was the cardboard glued to the ping pong balls. The Muppets were my childhood. It was the first TV show I was allowed to stay up to watch.

Sounds believable. Please ask Brian Henson about it.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

We would love to have him on the podcast!

considering the first Kermit was made from assorted crap, it might be true. ping pong balls, couch foam, mama's coat and punch holes. See, it kinda makes sense.

I mean, what if he was making puppets... and he was looking for a round hole that was the right size for the eye dot. He couldn't find one with a normal round dot, and didn't want to dig out a compass or something like that... and like you said he had the packaging for the ping pong balls. The dot was the right size... but it had a line through it. So he was like, "Okay, well, maybe it's like a goat or something..." and tries it out.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

Why do you think he would be thinking “goat” for this character and just black dots for every other character?

@ClockworkWyrm

3 жыл бұрын

The irony being that the frog in your avatar image has very similar pupil shapes to Kermit. I really love the idea of Jim Henson using materials at hand to experiment to give OG Kermit, not a frog but a "...lizard like creature...", unusual pupils to enhance his inhumanness and provide character distinction for a pretty basic puppet design.

@Froggy711

3 жыл бұрын

Well, Jim didn't have "frog" in mind, and they look a bit like goat eyes, (at least to me) so maybe he thought he would make it a goat at some point during the creative process? Maybe he thought it would be a composite creature, or... hell I dunno. I got nothin'.

This is actually a good theory! I always looked at the peg hole shape on packaging and am reminded of Kermit's pupils. I do have an alternate idea as to why this is, though. I thought I've read somewhere that Kemit's pupils we're supposed to suggest transparent eyelids. I could be wrong, and the fact that the line doesn't wrap around the whole eye could debunk this idea.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

Interesting.

Best working theory I’ve ever heard on this! Theory works for me!

Adam I think you need to cut the ping pong balks in half like Kermit eyes and try it again to see if you get the exact shape- use plastic this time. I think you are 100% right. There is no other shape I can think of like that.

Out of all the other theories going around, this seems super logical. Especially being a creator myself, I also like to keep interesting shaped parts of packaging to use for projects. Of course we can’t know if it’s right, but it’s such a simple explanation, it just makes sense! I’m totally on board with this.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

Right! It’s the maker lifestyle!

@mlledupont

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly! Maker *cough* hoarder *cough* 😅

It reminds me of how people ‘smile’ with their eyes. Most somewhat close their eyes when they smile. As he’s the host in most shows, he needs to appear smiling, even if his mouth just stays open. So I think that’s the case.

The shape makes Kermit's profile view much more aesthetically pleasing because you can see more pupil. My guess is Jim was viewing his creation from all angles and discovered exactly that.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

But why not for any other of the hundreds of puppets?

@ChrisB...

3 жыл бұрын

@@PuppetNerd Because the others have eyes that are set into the front of the head, Kermit's eyes are on top of his head with no brows or eyelids. The audience needs to see more pupil from the side to avoid seeing a green sock with pure white ping pong balls on top. A large round pupil might have worked too (see Cookie Monster), I bet Jim tried it.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChrisB... There are many other characters that have the eyes in the similar or same placement as Kermit. Even as far back as Sam and Friends. This doesn’t seem like a reason that holds up.

As a creative person myself, I know I’ve done exactly the same thing. It’s the perfect size to fit over a ping pong ball; it’s a unique shape that lies in the valley between “I recognize this” and easy to overlook; it ensures both pupils are identical so the character isn’t lopsided… I don’t know how many times I’ve gone through the same mental process for something I’ve made out of office supplies. I get fidgety at work and start making things out of cardboard and packaging tape until I get in trouble for turning my cubicle into a castle with turrets and poseable dragons. Tracing a shape like that is exactly what I would do too for the sake of symmetry.

We will probably never be sure, but your theory is so damn convincing that I can't really think of any other plausible explanation. Chapeau and congratulations.

I've thought the same for years but always figured kermit predated this type of packaging. Kudos to you for doing the homework.

My theory is that Kermit's eyes are actually half shut. For certain cartoon designs rather than having the eye actually blink the pupil blinks as a joke. It would make sense if his eyes are half shut since frogs sorta do that all the time

Honestly, I have always made the connection between his eyes and the cardboard pieces left over from the action figures peg holes. With you 100%!

These little peg hook things were so ubiquitous when I was a kid in the 80s that I’ve always assumed it was the origin of Kermit’s eyes 😂

I think you nailed it. You could find a scale reference and match to his original puppet eyes, match to known vintage ping pong ball packaging.

It is funny watching this at nearly 50 years old. As a kid, I just assumed Kermit's pupils were traced from what I associated with the hanger hole from a Hot Wheels display card. Cool to see this assumption validated many decades later. Thanks for this, good watch!

I am so glad I found your channel today, really cheered me up 😁

Now that’s something I could believe. It makes so much sense!

Tbh, I thought that the pupils were just to mark off the logo and Henson thought, "Hey, I could use this for a pupil!"

I have always thought Kermit's eyes look like those peg holes. When I was a kid I assumed Jim had some of the punched out holes, painted them black and glued them on, but tracing the hole on the card makes more sense. I think this is a solid theory!

Not even kidding, I always looked at those tabs as a kid and thought they reminded me of Kermit's eyes. I loved Kermit as a kid, face it, I still love my little green bud. I think the theory is true. Crafters and artists like Jim Henson are very innovative and are creative problem solvers.

It actually makes a lot of sense! Are there other examples of puppets (maybe from the Sam & Friends era) where the pupils were drawn from something else?

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

The rest are round pupils.

@mygeekfamilycotton

3 жыл бұрын

@@PuppetNerd right, but do we know if he was using a template to trace them? (Love your shows, btw, I am currently making a Kermit replica!)

Hey man, good to see up and kicking! Love your channel! Take care of yourself man!

Cool theory! As soon as you mentioned walking through the store I could see exactly where you were heading :) I remember reading about Kermit's early design, which was described as being 'vaguely lizard-like' - and if you look at the eyes of say, a gecko, when the pupils contract they have that (vertical) line with pinholes. I think it's just as plausible that Jim Henson could have simplified that sort of design and then gone "Hey you know what? I think this looks better sideways." But I like your theory too, and love your vids! Greetings from Australia :)

I thought the same thing when I was a kid. I remember being at Toys R Us in the early 80's and seeing that little punch out tag while looking at Star Wars figures.

Insane theory! Realistic too!

This makes a lot of sense, I never thought about Kermit's eyes before

That's a very good theory. You should definitely do more of these I really enjoyed it😊

The simplest explanation is that the pupil shape is a combo of open eye and closed eye for a good-natured, laidback look.

You had me at the point when you demonstrated the curve when using the peg hook hole as a template.

I just assumed from a very young age that putting actual glasses/sunglasses on Kermit would be impractical, so they were painted on. And then when I got older I thought it was a way to make Kermit look more endearing, a bit like the ^_^ expression you get in a lot of anime.

I didn't know I needed this kind of theory video!!! Any more puppet theories???

A reeeealy good theory, man!! CongratS!! Almost taste Jim's creativity.

His eyes are like that to make it more froglike

That frog really meant a lot to Jim Henson.

This theory totally has my vote! I can so see it! Especially when you mention that this shape was probably sitting right there on the ping pong ball package he used for the eyes! Once you see it, it’s kind of hard to un see it!

His eyes are shaped like that because they're based off the eyes of the Glass Frog, which was Jim Henson's favorite animal.

Your channel has been popping up on my feed haha so I decided to finally watch one of your videos. Today, is the second. Honestly, being a creative person myself, I can totally see this being a possibility. Sometimes, things just happen in the midst of creating something.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much!!!

@ninjaturtle365

3 жыл бұрын

@@PuppetNerd you're welcome!! I've been going down a rabbit hole of your videos since Haha

This is a wonderful theroy about Kermit's eye pupils here. Also, this "might" be a theory but, it's more of a wild guess. I think that when Jim Henson first build Kermit in 1954 with using his coat as a the base for his body, legs arms, hands and head. Next, he cut the one ping-pong ball in half and before he glue the two half of the ping-pong onto Kermit's head....I think that Jim might of use a marker to draw a dot and drew a cruve right through the dot in a arch kinda way. Again, I just taking a wild guess at it but, I think that's my theory on it. Other than, this is a really an awesome video and I can't wait to see more of puppet realted stuff on here. Keep up the great work! :)

I'd say the last guys argument about it just being a random line he painted on can be argued back bc of how exact the SIZE is as well. His theory is spot on

I have thought that for years! But you explain it so well.

I got a theory!!! Jim could have gotten the idea for that shape from turtles... specifically, slider turtles! Have you ever looked at their eyes? Some people sometimes think frogs have the same weird pupil shape as turtles

the li'l buggies in the intro are a-dor-able!! so is henson's fluffy white doggo. xoxoxoxoxoxo

Awesome theory! See if you could ask Frank Oz or Dave Goelz. They might know.

:D this makes a lot of sense. It may have started off like this and then the line was accentuated more to give Kermit a resting smile of the eyes to go with his grin.

This is exactly what I always thought! Nice to see I'm not the only one. :)

It's because he's smiling. He doesn't have eyelids so this gives his eyes a permanent smile which helps ppl relate to him.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

Almost none of the muppets have eyelids, and yet they do t gave this shape of pupil…

In The Muppet Christmas Carol, Tiny Tim & Peter (Kermit as Bob Cratchit’s children) have normal circle pupils, implying that when frogs become adults their pupils just deform into that weird shape😂

I don't know if it could be true but I am loving this theory. This was a super fun watch!

It's odd how only one type of frog that was really recently discovered is considered for this theory when there's actually lots of types of frogs that have been known about for ages that might not look exactly like Kermit like the "new" one but have these kinds of eye shapes that Jim could've easily gotten inspiration from. My only gripe about a otherwise super well produced video

peghook theory for the win!!! i know nothing about muppets or anything this is one of the only videos ive seen from puppet nerd

I always thought they looked more like goat eyes than frog eyes

I have always thought this was the obvious answer, ever since the early 70s. Every store had those things... they were ubiquitous! I was surprised there is any controversy - or even question - about it.

I just realized there’s a matpat reference

3:33 hello new ringtone 🤪

You know what we need we need a video on how to make puppet shoes and heels

Ahhhhh! This is mind blowing!

That's a really fascinating and credible theory. I can just imagine Jim seeing that peg hook shape and trialling it on one of the ping pong balls 😀

Never thought about it, now I can't unthink it.

A little research could determine whether or not the style of peg hook you're looking at was even existing at the time that Jim made the first Kermit.

@PuppetNerd

2 жыл бұрын

Lol. I did Gordon.

I could just see Jim doing that grabbing the package and going hey nice stencil and doing it without even thinking about it.

This is a great idea and does seem to fit all the facts at hand. and also it has to be a great feeling to have gotten into Jim's mindset and had that moment.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

Right? It just makes too much sense.

@twitchew

3 жыл бұрын

@@PuppetNerd of course that is the reason it is wrong ;) "THEY" just want to lead you astray.

This is probably the smartest theory we're ever gonna get!!

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

❤️❤️

I have to say I have seen these and thought oh Kermit eyes before but truthfully I have never actually put any thought into why or how they were designed this way! And I feel embarrassed that I have never thought about it at all! But you could be totally right with this! I can really see it being true! Well done! And what an awesome video too!

Pls make more of these videos!

Looking at the original image of Kermit (when he was still an abstract character), how the eyes are painted on does align with the theory you have. In fact, his eyes could be traced with an earlier version of the hole seen in retail.

I always thought that as well. I’ve been working in retail for over 30 years and I find those tabs everywhere

This is a great theory.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much!

If you look up brass brad or brass fastener. This is the defacto standard for keeping screenplays together and have been around since 1866… It also happens to be the shape of his eyes when folded out… :)

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

I like that idea too!

There is that statement Kermit made (on the Muppet Show) that his eyes got like that because of people shining flashlights in his eyes in the swamp. : -)

This is probably also not the reason BUT... If you just give him two dots it looks kind of blank, and dead due to his eyes sticking out above his head. He has no eye brows to give him an expression. Painting diagonal lines through the pupils creates the expression missing from eyebrows, and also gives the illusion of a moving gaze. Almost like Kermit's eyes are looking to the side your brain is making you think he would be looking towards as he speaks to someone beside him. But I doubt it's really that indepth a reason. Probably just thought it looked cool

I'm a hardcore Muppet fan and this is an amazing theory! I wonder though if Jim tried a bunch of different pupil designs (and maybe somewhere theres a box full of all the unused "test eyes)

3:34 HELLO INTERNET AND WELCOME TO MUPPET THEORY

@pjrobot921

Жыл бұрын

Lol

The canon reason was already explained at the end of the John Denver Muppet Show episode. Kermit says his eyes got that way due to people shining flashlight beams at him trying to catch him when he lived in the swamp. 😋

I always figured he tried a line, tried a dot, then tried combining the two and it tickled him in some way he kept it cause it was original and unique but that peg hook hole is certainly a compelling argument.

It's so it looks like there's two people in his eyes and we're looking at them from a birds eye perspective. There's people inside kermit and there's a kermit inside us all.

This makes far more sense than any other theory!

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks!!

I think it’s to make up for him not having lids or eyebrows, in muppets most wanted, Constantine’s pupils were more straight, counteracting and natural angle of the eyes, making him look more angry

Love this !!!!!!!

I went to the Jim Henson Museum in Ann Arbor with my Dad last week as I definitely saw Kermit✌️👋👍

Nice theory! 🤗

Very interesting theory! Personally, I always thought (even as a kid) that his pupils might’ve been inspired by a cartoony look of a fly. However, with his original non-frog look, that can’t be true.

@PuppetNerd

3 жыл бұрын

That’s still a clever idea!