I am honored to have been a part of this video! In my case, little to nothing that I ever shared about teaching originated with me. My educational thoughts are taken straight out of jazz and classical education and are still being used today. Electric bass seems to be an exception! This prompted me to remind people that there are only two proven ways to be taught and that you are already involved in one of them - being self-taught! The only other proven way is to be taught written music itself. If people believe that music is a language, consider which suggestion makes more sense, to you 1. Feel the words! 2. First learn what they mean. Good luck with what you conclude.

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

9 ай бұрын

I wasn’t sure if this was really you Jeff. Thank you for everything you do for the entire musical community! I love your work both as a musician and in the classroom. ❤

@SchutzBoysband

6 ай бұрын

Music isn't literally a language. That's just an analogy. And I think its a bad one that confuses more than it illuminates. With regards to children learning their native tongue, "feel the words" is basically what's going on. Any parent will tell you they didn't define every individual word their child spoke before they spoke it and they certainly don't teach them the rules of grammar (which most people don't consciously know anyway) However, an adult picking up a second language DOES have to specifically learn the rules and defintions of words. You basically learn a second language the same way you learn any other skill. So is Learning music more like a baby developing a capacity for language in the first place, or an adult learning a second language? The answer is neither because it's just an analogy anyway. Like any art, technical ability and creativity have to be taught together. Jeff focuses on the former, Victor on the latter. They're equally important which is why Jeff is kind of a dick for essentially correcting someone else's lessons for focusing on creativity. Victor doesn't do that to people who focus on technical aspects.

@Frisbieinstein

Ай бұрын

I'm unable to learn a language through feel, or even by ear. I have to use flash cards. On the other hand I've learned music almost entirely by ear. So go figure. It's a well-established fact that there are maybe three classes of human brains that learn languages differently. The ear method is faster but they also forget faster. Eye people like me learn slowly but retain it forever. I learn music pretty slowly though. It's a big disadvantage. I'm a lot better at writing, as one would expect from a visual learner.

I tried to teach my 12years daughter bass with first a lot of theory, she gave up quickly, then I decided to give her more practical, teaching her songs that she likes then introducing the theory behind it step by step. I believe you learn faster when you are enjoying what you are learning, that is what is behind the theory of V.W.

@ttusch

2 жыл бұрын

I experienced the exact same thing.

@pierrojules

Жыл бұрын

Exactly! I tried the same thing when I was a kid ... The theoretical part made learning music extremely boring. It is just like learning how to ride a bicycle. Simply take it and ride it as I did by myself. You will fall a few times, then you will be able to ride it very well.

Bottom line: what kind of bass player do you want to be? Do you want to be a first-call bassist who is known for showing up and being able sight read music for a recording session, a Broadway musical, a big band or a wedding band? Or do you want to learn how to jam and hopefully get good at knowing your way around the neck enough so that you can improvise without understanding the harmonic theory behind it? I can tell you that my musical training (ie: reading music/music theory) has given me WAY more opportunities for paying gigs than not. Learning how to transpose on the spot. Learning how to read a chart. Transcribing solos and being able to improvise in EVERY key. It's like saying, "I don't have to read, I can listen to books on tape!' Yeah....I guess. But guess how much more you'll get out of learning how to read.

@MrKingclaude1

2 жыл бұрын

I know a lot of players who can read perfectly even virtuosos but suck when playing in a band, there is that element of "je ne sais quoi ", that natural touch that either you have or not, no amount of theory or music reading will compensate for a natural-born gift

@pierrojules

Жыл бұрын

Instead of dwelling on all the theories and playing some dull music, why don't you simply let your inspiration guide you into playing the kind of music that will inspire and move millions of people? Just like painting, music is an art. It is not like Mathematics or Physics, even though you can apply Mathematics and Physics to study several phenomena involved in music. Simply let that inspiration flow through your musical instrument.

@piaten

Жыл бұрын

That is a big strawman argument, if I've ever seen one. "Learning music as a language", as Wooten puts it, is (as far as I understand) certainly not about skipping theory. You can learn all the theory you like, whenever you want or need to. The difference is that you look it up and seek it out because you want to, to make your music come to live even more, not because some teacher is feeding you exercises and lessons in a pre-determined sequence! When I was a kid, they tried to feed me notes, but I just couldn't do it, and I grew up thinking musicianship was forever off limits for me. However, in my teens, I picked up the bass, and exploring by myself, I gradually built up both some skill, and a lot of theory, but most of all, the joy of using both to express myself!

@michaelwilson2340

10 ай бұрын

Who cares? Not me. In the end they both have some quid in their pockets.

I think your Beethoven analogy sums it up. Totally accurate way to look at it. I studied for 2 years with Jeff. I was there March 7, 2007, when victor came to PSoM. One thing about Jeff that is often overlooked is that while he preaches ‘a narrow path’ to learning (his words), he also acknowledges that academia and creativity are separate. He wants you to study the right way, but then play your own way. Vic is my favorite bass player and the best in my opinion, but if I had a musical question I’d ask Jeff. But I’d rather play like Vic haha! Let’s learn from both. That’s the formula

@ssoouull

6 ай бұрын

You are making very good points, Dan. Music is not "right or wrong". Neither are approaches to learning it right or wrong. Approaches to music, the art form that is meant to bring people together, are not supposed to create a battle. I think that we should appreciate both player/teachers for what they offer rather than having their approaches compete.

BOTH is the answer. Don't limit yourself to one way or the other.

As a beginner, I'm gonna have to go with Berlin on this one. You can feel the music all you want but, if you don't know music, you're not going to play.

Both are right. I noticed in your thumbnail you used Victor Wooten. He plays with feeling but he is extremely well practiced. The way he plays demonstrates he knew the song inside and out, back to front long before he started playing out.

Jeff's main philosophy is: Its OK to be self taugh. But, when you're paying money for "Music Education", that's a different story. Jeff was my counceler @ BIT in the late 80's. His talent as a player & teacher is phenomenal. Victor is mostly self taught & doesn't know reading, harmony & theory well. He's more a philosophiser. Myself, I paid for a music education that is specific. Philosophy is broad.

@stevelocklin7793

Жыл бұрын

I bet you Victor reads and well.

@joannalewis5279

Жыл бұрын

Victor understands theory and reading very well indeed

@jeffo-3

Жыл бұрын

Victor admits he's not a reader & barely knows theory. All his clinics are all about philosophy. No factual music education.

@JeffBerlin-mt1rn

11 ай бұрын

@joannalewis5279 Hello Joanna! This next thought applies to me as well. If we as teachers don't teach you the very musical content that helps us all to play better, then how have we helped you to play better?

@JeffBerlin-mt1rn

11 ай бұрын

@stevelocklin7793 Hi Steve! You could be right! The question that pertains to all of us teachers isn't what we know, but what we show you. A good teacher gets students to improve by giving you music to practice so that your bass playing will benefit.

My opinion? Jeff is an academic teacher. Victor is a genius, but not really a teacher, he looks more like a "coach". Coachs in my opinion tends to give you more questions than answers, or results. They don´t really care about your development.

@rl-ub9hx

2 жыл бұрын

Great analogy.

@williambradley8004

2 жыл бұрын

Victor is a very gifted teacher.Ive studied with him over the years and it's changed the way I look at music.

@acprado67

2 жыл бұрын

@@williambradley8004 ok, the way you look at music is important, but the teacher has to measure your development, your evolution. This is de difference between a workshop and a real classroom

@thetornado

2 ай бұрын

Not commenting either way on Wooten vs Berlin, but that's the silliest most inaccurate definition of a coach I've ever heard

@acprado67

2 ай бұрын

@@thetornado for It can be seen that you are a fan of coaches. Good luck

It’s all so silly because if you take in what they _both_ have to offer it will make you a better bass player than only listening to/learning from one or the other. I love them both!

@DLMaston1

Жыл бұрын

❤❤❤

For those who do not know Jeff, he has gone through a therapeutic breakthrough and has changed his views radically over the last few months. HE is now actively apologizing for his past criticisms and is seeking forgiveness for his previous mind set. He and Victor were once very good friends and based on what I know of Victor, will probably be so again once Victor sees that the changes Jeff has made are real and earnest. He is also actively seeking forgiveness from Steve Bailey for the same reasons.

@tylerwmbass

Жыл бұрын

I think Jeff is largely correct around musical education, but he historically was not able to communicate his views effectively, or to demonstrate that he understood the arguments his critics had against him. He'd see a lot of people graduating from these schools questioning whether or not they got their money's worth after the fact.

There is a very simple principle that is very real. Not every person understands, learns, comprehends and regurgitates in the identical manner. Some people are sight-oriented, sound-oriented, mechanically minded, feel-minded and more traits and approaches. Many people have combinations of these and some can multi-task while some cannot. There is no one-size-fits all. The drummer comment you made is very valid and spot on. Simultaneously, the technical approach of Berlin is not wrong either. What happens when Berlin gets a student who is chronically dyslexic and cannot read but has an abundance of natural talent? Does he dump him or is he patient? Maybe someone should ask him. Guidelines are good. Prerequisites are good and advancement is desirable but it has to be flexible and adapt to different people. This does not make Wooten or Berlin's approach better or worse, but Wooten is certainly more geared towards the music itself, not the technique that anyone can learn with patience. Last, teachers of this calbre putting down other teacher's is NOT good. It explains why Spotify exists and the entire music world is divided instead of supportive.

Victor impacted many people with his love and positive attitude. I was wrong for criticizing him, Steve Bailey, or anyone that seeks to help people to play better. I changed my attitude (through therapy) and see the beauty in positivity, respect, and fraternity. I am making efforts to join the community of teachers. I learned that we can do so much more together than apart. My educational views of being taught remain the same. But, if other teachers use their talents to their best abilities, I was wrong to see their efforts negatively as this only reflecteded the negativity in me. I apologize to anyone that I alienated by my critical manner. I only want to see the positive in our varied ways that we teacher/players approach being taught. As Steve shared with me, positivity is better than negativity. Namaste! ❤️

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

9 ай бұрын

❤❤❤❤ you give us so much Jeff. Thank you 🙏

@danieldray990

8 ай бұрын

Who s who?

I’m not a musician full time but earn my living as a health practionner. What is described here, scholar vs poet, brain vs heart, or whatever your label is, is seen and experience in every field, in every human being. I love coming to that video once in a while to be inspired by your video and some comments. i notice that there is no more one of victor brother (joseph?, but i may be wrong) comment, that was inspiring, about we care about tree and not book, and with enough information but not enough wisdom (or something like that), and i regret it is lost. Your comment, even not written, still resonate in me. Wherever you came from, whenever it is, everyone has his own poet inside, his child, that dont want to master anything, but just play. have fun everyone A poet from france

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

2 ай бұрын

I loved this comment bro

Both approaches are so important! thanks for sharing!

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

6 ай бұрын

Welcome brother 🤝

Dave Holland would say "you can't really walk on electric" lol

Victor Wooten is a particular individual who found a way to 'look beyond' the established norms of formal musical education, with some spectacular and awe-inspiring results. I can see how that could be considered as an offense or a 'violation of the code' to the classically-or-formally trained music entities. I also think other points of contention are 'how to learn?', 'how much fun should be had while learning?', and 'what details should be paid attention to/ignored?' Just a scatterbrained opinion on a very interesting subject.

Both of them are such an inspiration to me. Love them both and I am extremely thankful for their willingness to share.

@NathanDFoust-john146

6 ай бұрын

Perhaps one can say that Jeff Berlin is a Scholar whereas Victor Wooten is a Philosopher. There is a difference between these two, but both roads will lead to one to become a better bass player.

They are both next level! I feel like Jeff is teaching more from the left brain, whereas Victor is teaching more from the right brain, but they both play and live from the whole brain and heart, it seems to me. I'm thankful for what they both are willing to share with us all.

They are unique approaches that one can glean a great deal from. I would invite all players in their practice to go between each approach for 30 minutes each in an hour of practice. An half hour spent in childlike, experiential, exploratory discovery, a la Victor Wooten. Then spend the other half hour on a focused musical materials, like reading, triads, inversions, arpeggios a la Jeff Berlin.

Love Wooten but I tend towards Berlin in most (not all) cases when it comes to learning. Different strokes for different folks, I know. Thank you for this video!

I mistakenly said my grandfather was Jessie Columbus "Wooten". He was Jessie Columbus Woodard, on my Mother's side of the family. Great man!

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

6 ай бұрын

I accidentally deleted your comment thread when I was going through all the comments. That’s a real shame. It was a great story and an awesome perspective. I really appreciated you coming into the conversation ❤

@ssoouull

6 ай бұрын

@@MarkMarxonsBassChannel , it's all good!

Hi,Music is not a competition,Music is a Mission.

Victor Wooten inspires me with both his musical ability and his warm humility. I saw him live and the concert was wonderful. At the end, he came back onto the stage and shook hands with everybody in the audience who wanted to. I watched a video of Victor speaking and playing at a university graduation ceremony. He spoke so well and with such a warm positive caring message. Perhaps I am missing something, but at the moment Jeff Berlin does not inspire me at all - either musically or personally. Maybe one day I will change my mind.

@larsetom1

Ай бұрын

RE: warm humility To me this is key, Jeff Berlin's educational ideas would be embraced far more if he didn't act in a way that most people would see as arrogant.

I'll just say this to add once more to my point earlier. Music is like Space and Math.. they both has a beginning and none of them both has an end. The work our brothers and sisters before us has began a good thing and we've learnt a great deal from them. We aren't here to change the rules in music. We are growing and also learning as the years go by... I can speak from experience that things I couldn't do ten, twelve years ago on my instrument I now doing like water running of a duck's back... what does that means.. it mean I am evolving as the music evolves. And that goes for both sight readers and who play by ear. When I first heard Victor's "Show Of Hands" album I too was one who said this can't real there must be overdubs going on here... until I saw a video of him doing everything I heard on the album. To be honest I almost gave up because I said to myself this makes no sense. Right there and then I was at a crossroads and had to choose "quit or continue"? Well... I chose the latter. If vic was a narrow minded person.. not willing to push the boundaries into new dimensions where would he be? He has what... 5 or 7 Grammys (someone can correct me on the amount of Grammys) to show for his determination and willingness to step outside the box that most person's seem to be trapped in. Vic.. a genius in my opinion! The music world needs to acknowledge him for his gift and contributions to the global music industry...💯 Food for thought.🙏🏾

Both are right.

Both approaches are totally valid and I do and would say use both!!! I agree, the error is in the question.

Well thought out description of the different musical philosophies of those two monsters of bass.

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

6 ай бұрын

Thanks brother 🤝

victor all day, victor is trying to get to student to find the music within himself.

@lumpyjazz

Жыл бұрын

Hi Woo all Woo! In my view, finding our inner music is vital. You are right about this! But, if music is a language, I'm interested to hear how we express this language if we haven't learned the "words". At least this is a question that comes to me. Cheers!

A lot of people are thinking of it as education (Jeff) vs. inspiration ( Victor). Jeff, the way he presents his ideas (which are BIG ideas), can be a bit confusing, but what he's saying, essentially, is that it's not education vs inspiration at all. Those things are not in competition. It's about how one learns the craft of musicianship in order to be FREE. The beautiful things Victor does with his music - his way, and his imagination, love, creativity, inspiration, and his extraordinary knowledge and skill, etc, are not at all at odds with what Jeff it trying to convey.- in fact he constantly stresses being Self Taught as a way of learning. Jeff is as musical and inspired, and full of brotherly love as anyone on the planet - he just has a philosophy about standards of education as it pertains to modern musicians who are spending their lives in a musical pipe dream. I don't think Jeff is perfect in his vision, and I don't agree with some of his ideas, but I think that in the proper context with regard to learning how harmony works and learning the craft of musicianship and the language of tones, he's pretty ironclad in his reasoning. Victor Wooten is like Jaco in the sense of how Pat Metheny put it with players trying to do the Jaco thing . . . don't even try. Just do your own thing (like he did).

Think when you practice; feel when you play.

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

6 ай бұрын

Well said ✊

This is mind boggling Victors brother commented here and told that wonderful story! I agree with both of you🤩

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

6 ай бұрын

I accidentally deleted his pinned comment thread. I’m spewing 😭.

Both are RIGHT! Jeff's ego which informs his 'sense of duty' is whats WRONG here. Hes a great player, but he is no Victor Wooten. He would have so much more success if he adjusted his attitude and relinquish his sense of 'entitlement'. Because at the core of everything Berlin has said in old interviews and on-line, Jeff is a man who is hurting because he feels he didnt get the accolades he deserved... And I get that. He is truly underrated. So now he feels the only way to get them is to go at the methods of whoever is in the spotlight. Which is passive-aggressive, to say the least. He says he has nothing against wooten, but he does - I've been following him since he was with Bruford. Hes hard to get along with. But thats okay - Bach and Mozart were very hard to get along with as well. Hell, Bach drew a knife on a bassoonist for playing his part incorrectly. I get it, man. Trust me. But this limits Jeff greatly. Vic has done so much for the community of bass-players than Jeff. When your arguing with guys like Victor Wooten ( who literally is about making learning fun and is a teddy-bear ) something is WRONG with you. This whole thing is giving me Zappa flashbacks. I thought he would have learned something about himself from that experience - but, no..... ATTITUDE IS EVERYTHING! And Jeff, if you're reading this, brother -- Dont hate the PLAYERS, hate the game. Its not the players and their teaching methods that are the problem - its the game. Attack the game. The players are only doing what they can to keep their wives and children fed.

groove is all that matters in a song

@DabsDad

2 жыл бұрын

you can't hold no groove if you ain't got no pocket

Learn the music AND Feel the music.

The essential aspect of Jeff Berlin's educational philosophy is that the focus of all practice is *learning music*- that is, a piece of music, and what makes it expressive. Whether it involves finger style, thumbing, or tapping, you need to learn lots music (whether jazz standards, Broadway, pop, rock, etc.) to be a competent musician, whatever the style. Classical study works because, alongside pieces, you learn scales and arpeggios, and techniques, all toTO SUPPORT the learning of pieces (in different keys, styles, etc). You need to learn your way through all 12 keys (eventually) to do that, whether it be Classical, Jazz, or Rock. To develop a handle on jazz music, you need to be grounded in playing your instrument in different keys, singing the melody while walking, soloing, developing concepts. Learning to read music enables that process, although not essential for a lot of genres. Separating your practice into technical, or what Jeff calls 'academic' learning (reading, scales, apreggios) and 'art' (actually pieces you will perform) MAKES GOOD SENSE. Learning pieces slowly, without a metronome, out of time-- is pedagogically sound. You don't need a metronome, though it can be an aid once you can play the pieces well, and that can be used creatively such as the way Victor's lessons demonstrate. Learning music 'as a language' is a fun and creative approach, and worthy of experimentation. However, overall it is incredibly vague and has no pedagogical grounding. It is not an approach. It will need lead you to be a fully competent musician without all the aspects that Jeff suggests. In short, focus on learning lots, and lots of musical pieces , work on knowing the technical aspects of your instrument, and work on creative aspects alongside it (as Victor demonstrates). My background- B.A, M.A in Music, worked on my Ph. D in Music Theory at the University of Chicago, taught undergrad music classes at several colleges, professional bass player, violinist, and work full-time in education as an orchestra director for a school district in NJ. I teach 100 strings students a week in my position. Hope this explanation helps.

It sounds to me that learning formulas and scales is first and then the freelancing of victor come after, once a person has an idea of what they’re doing. So for me I would start with Jeff Berlin and then progress to Victor Wooten.

Listen to both, then evaluate!!!!

Well who's the more influential bassist? Then that's the approach you consider.

I've so many personal opinions on this complex subject, but for the sake of a peaceful life, I'd go along with the general consensus that both artist are right. And one can learn alot from both. I greatly admire both of those guys!

@josephcambron7060

5 ай бұрын

So you are a coward?

@vincentm4717

5 ай бұрын

@josephcambron7060 I love the playing of both artist. I think Jeff is a better soloist and Victor is a much stronger funk player . The bass guitar is a new evolving instrument and it's also an instrument of the streets, unlike say an upright bass. Bass guitar is the bastard son of the electric guitar and upright bass. It was looked down upon in many circles. It's mainly the instrument of itinerant players but a few do go to school and study.

Victor is all about feel and improvising discovering. Not learning by heart like a parrot. Feel the groove (music)from within, is VW.

Before I start I haven't heard much of Jeff Berlin's talks or music and surprisingly I have heard more of Victor's talks than his music. Last year I got myself started into to understand why good music sounds good, what kind of logic lays behind its back but as a beginner of theory I might have got myself too much into its mindset as I'd do when learning something when I was little kid, I was always trying to improvise over one scale, over one mode and I was never trying to go out of that, my mind would stop when I couldn't find the key of the song or the mode that the song uses but recently I have discovered that is not helping at all, many of the stuff I listen don't fit to that rule, so why should I exhaust myself. What is the problem after it sounds good, wasn't that the point of music? So recently I have started to think less about those stuff. I have started to add much more chromaticism, borrowing chords or notes from other modes or scales, just trying to find which note will satisfy the idea in my head more and this helped me to come out with more ideas, it really helped the flow to be relaxed. Basically my experience in the past year says that learn theory, understand music but just relax and let your ideas flow out of your head. Apart from that I really like Victor's talks. He is such a great talker. He makes me feel relaxed about who I am as a musician while still noting that there is a lot to learn in music. Man can talk about how to use a drill and he can make a meaningful speech out of that.

This is a bit like clockwise and counterclockwise having a discussion about which is right. The answer depends on where you sit. Music is meant to be played and experienced first...and talked about later... When we talk too much, it is at the expense of the music. I think that is why my brother exited the conversation. Music is meant for us all. Music theory is not. My Mom, our Mom, used to say, "If you know you are right, you don't have to keep saying it". I hear you loud and clear, Mom. Enough talking about music. Let's play...

They both are right.

They both are right 👍

I think that the both are right. They are individuals that feel diferent!

The problem with bass is that you really don't need to know music to play it. Guitarist can show you which notes to play and you will be serviceable as a bass player. That's why these philosophical and etherical approaches work only with bass and not for example for trumpet or a piano.

They are both right, and if I may add: Jeff Berlin also feel the music and VW also knows very well theory. The differences are more subtle than what it seems.

Interesting topic. Couple of thoughts - when VW uses his ear to explore notes against a static musical metronome, what isn't covered, is that his knowledge of resolution and tension (direction, which he demonstrates) is informed by his years of practicing, being self taught, transcribing, gigging and learning tunes. This is why JB's method is more reliable, as it informs the player of the various structures (triads, arpeggios - he's big on chord tones for a good reason) within music which would then be used as resolution points. VW unfortunately doesn't seem to be able to put himself in the students shoes which leads to a flawed method. I'm willing to be wrong of course. Just my 2 cents!

@drcraigFAILS

Жыл бұрын

Exactly right. Imagine some type of slam poetry session were the participants are given a theme or background (the looper with the g note) and they have to compose a poem on the spot. The person who has studied the language and literature for 40 years (VW) will thrive and will come up with a great poem on the spot because of "feeling". Meanwhile another who only knows 50 words (me) will have a much harder time arriving at anything meaningful just by "feeling".

@jdb123ize

Жыл бұрын

I would say this about JB(objectively JB could come up with something because of his years……) What if VW has writers block or he isn’t “feeling it”

@danielsargesson222

Жыл бұрын

@@jdb123ize I also think the term/process of 'feeling it' is too unreliable. After you've spent a few days/weeks however long 'feeling it' over a static note you'll probably crave for improvement, especially if you've recorded yourself doing this and realised that nothing is moving forwards. What then? Feel it some more? You have to introduce sounds and concepts which your ears and fingers aren't familiar with to move forwards, a good way is transcription and another is the reading and application of musical concepts via written notation. 'Feeling' it has absolutely no relevance to the learning process. All IMO btw!

That depends how you want to learn every body is different.

Both are Correct 😅

They re both right...just different perspectives on how they feel you should learn/grow. It's funny because I remember in the 70's when I started playing bass, I remember the kids who were glued to the book and truly had no feel vs those like myself who played from ear/memory/feel. I believe both are important. But it's amazing that among those who couldn't read music were : Stevie Ray Vaughn, Sammi Davis, Roy Clark, Elvis and the list goes on. Feel is everything and it's something you can't teach. On the other hand, theory is knowing and understanding the language of music in it's entirety. Play on

Ideally you use both approaches. Victor Wooten is gifted, so he can do without as much theory. For those of us that are less gifted, theory helps. Even when studying theory you still have to “play” with it after internalizing it through exercises.

The answer is: do both. You’ll be better for it.

They both have points and they're both being a little short sighted.

Both ! 😉

what people like wooten dont understand is that all those vague, abstract, motivational concepts like "feel" and "theres no wrong notes" only work for people who are brimming with natural talent and gene given dexterity. which isnt the vast majority of people. human beings in general need to learn from structure (and proven methods). they need that bulk of theoretical knowledge to serve as a roadmap for further exploration. we've all heard bout that one shoeless kid from some favela in brazil who played football in the street with a deflated ball for a few years and all of a sudden hes the greatest player alive. but that doesnt work for the vast majority of people. all the "virtuosos" in any discipline always talk about vague, ethereal concepts. theres a big emphasis on (for lack of a better word) "feel". cause thats how they perceive it in their minds (since you can give em any random chord with bizzare non diatonic homebrewed extensions and random added notes and they see the matrix that points them in the right direction). so of course theory , drilling and memorization ad nauseum doesnt seem all that important to em. but most people arent born with that instinct. not to mention, most people dont have the time or luxury to be "grooving and jamming" for hours everyday with top notch musicians by the time theyre 9. time is limited and precious. you need to use it wisely and efficiently. and philosophizing bout abstract, nondescript vaguely defined concepts that are open to interpretation delivered by some virtuoso who could have practiced for 5 minutes a day and STILL be miles above you after 40 years is not a constructive use of your time! music is math! deal with it! only after knowing the formulas inside and out you can start to deviate from them in order to use them to your advantage (efficiently and consistently...if you are MOST PEOPLE)

with his amazing curriculum, jeff is a musician for musicians to admire and respect. wooten has reached the ears, hearts and inspired millions more whether they are musicians or not, plus is doing what he loves while avoiding foolish fights. so in that matter I think victor wooten has had more success in life through his music, therefore is a better role model on the matter. both are extremely necessary tho.

I just go by the Gene Simmons of KISSSS rule: 'You play with your balls, not your head.'

It's like the theory of general relatively & Quantum theory opposite each other & both proven right several times

Personally, i`m self-taught bass player with a law degree and yet i had many students who were studying bass or music overall at universities. The short answer to your question is Hans Zimmer - the great composer who built himself a monopoly in Hollywood regarding movie soundtracks and yet he doesn`t even know where C on a note sheet is..as opposed to (classicaly trained) John Williams or Danny Elfman. He is good at what he does because he "feels" the music. When asked by Christopher Nolan to write the motif for Interstellar he was given few instructions that it was a movie about the love between a father and his daughter. So , Hans wrote the motif "feeling" about the love he had towards his son. It`s one of the most beautiful melodies ever written and yet composed by a man with no formal music education.Also,there is a short youtube documentary regarding this topic. So....If you have the gift/talent to really feel the music, you will also need people who studied music (and some modern technology) in order to transpose your thoughts in a final music product. Still, at the end, the credit is all yours, and it`s well deserved because creation always beats performance. Always. p.s. Billy Sheehan, with whom Jeff Berlin collaborated (like many star bass players) is also self-taught and on his old VHS instructional video, he doesn`t even know what a chromatic or diatonic scale is in musical terms, but plays the way he plays....killing it. Come to think of it, Jaco was self - taught too and John Patitucci quit school when he was asked by his double bass mentors to play classical music for a chamber orchestra exclusively. Imagine the consequences on the bass world if he didn`t. And let`s not forget mentioning the modern day`s richest bass players like Sting and Roger Waters, both of them "weighing" over 400 million USD just beacuse of their song writing skills ( which Jeff nor Wooten for that matter never had, have or will have). Final thoughts: You can try to institutionalize any art, but there is no guarantee it will be a successful effort and it never works all the time. It may have worked for Jeff, but it`s not ( and must not be) a general rule for every single aspiring bass player. kzread.info/dash/bejne/Za2Gr8SBY5mugqg.html

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

2 жыл бұрын

All true 🤝

i have jeff berlin bass and i want victor bass soon just for my collection

Learning how to READ music and being able to sight read on gigs, studio, recordings DOES NOT LIMIT someone learning the bass or ANY instrument.

Lots of this is a cultural difference also. Philosophical approaches tend to be about mentorship in which a guru encourages you to become better not by theory and exercises but by instinct. The truth is that both are right. Which brings it down to the old adage "THERE's A TIME FOR EVERYTHING" in this case meaning you have to practice both ways. Lots should be put into the way Jeff talks about and much should be put into the way Victor talks about.

I think each player is making the argument out of their respective music experience. One had formal music education while the other grew up playing music before he could even speak. As you mentioned it yourself, a lot of great players started without formal education, but I believe down the road they ended up taking formal music education. I believe having some kind of structured lesson will be useful "tool" to being a more rounded, better player. For beginner to intermediate bass players, Jeff may have a stronger point here. But for players that already have some kind of basic musical knowledge already, Victor's idea prevails because Victor's allows players to explore further without being restricted by rules. But to do Victor's method, we got to start the A,B,Cs first.

@MrKingclaude1

2 жыл бұрын

I have a music college education and years of band playing experience as I played professionally to support myself and my family. I played with people who had none or just basic music theory knowledge but were as proficient as some of us in the band who could read music, they could grasp any complex songs either in session recording or in-band rehearsals. We had two bass players, one an art college-trained who could read and write music and a self-taught guy. strangely everyone loved the touch of the self-taught guy, whenever he played the same song as the other guy, the song came to life, his touch was just sweet, UNIQUE, DISCIPLINED, NAUGHTY, and very CREATIVE. He became so much in demand and made really good money that many college-trained musicians got jealous of him including me( slightly). He died unfortunately due to AIDS.

They are both doing the same thing internally. It's only how they communicate it that differs. It's pedantic for us to think that feeling music and knowing music are separate, opposing things. You can waste a lifetime quibbling over fake dichotomies like this and never actually get good yourself.

I'm going to add my two cents to this conversation here. First I respect both Victor and Jeff at what they do and what they have brought to the table opening the world to a whole new level of bass playing. For me it's sad to hear Jeff disagreeing to Victor's approach in hiw we learn. Jeff was taught a particular way and nothing is wrong with that.. but what Jeff needs to realize is that music has a beginning but has no end. It keeps evolving. Yeah.. Music started in Heaven before Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven.. so yeah it began somewhere but will never reach its peak. Therefore I am saying here that to me Jeff seems to have peaked in his thoughts and ability in music. Yes they are rules in everything we do and we must abide by them in order to stay in line. But in this case Victor's approach to how we learn music especially for bass players change the game totally. Especially to bass players that people use to look at back in the early days as the less important member of the entire band.... not so anymore. My point here is just like space above the clouds which seems to have no end... Music is just the same. I have learnt this from Victor himself... and goes for all instruments. When a player of any instrument is taking a solo during a song they aren't wrong notes. If we know our scales well enough we start anywhere within the scale degree of the key the song being played. We can ascend or descend in whichever scale pattern we choose to play and move forward in our solo. So I do agree with Victor Wooten's approach in saying free your mind to new interpretations and new ideas cause remember this. No matter how good we are now at what we do.. there is always someone out there who is going to out do us. Vic changed the game when he came on the scene early 90s. What seemed impossible then is possible now. Music has evolved and it keeps evolving. So my suggestion to Jeff.. is embrace the change. Whether we like it or not this thing called MUSIC will Never stop evolving and will never wait on us to play catch up. And if we don't keep up and always reaching for the unknown.. music will eventually become boring and insignificant. And there and then... what would LIFE be like?? God gave us the tools and a big super computer called our brain. Let's utilize it well.🙏🏾💯🎶

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

2 жыл бұрын

Some good points here 🤝

@snakeeyes1662

2 жыл бұрын

Yes exactly some people dont even know which one is the bass

I personally know very little music theory, but I understand the reason for it. I tend to agree with Victor, although I wouldn't argue Jeff's point.

Jeff Wins, no question. However, Victor is right, too. Vics method works well but is another animal.

Both

I can appreciate both views. Been a JB fan since his Bruford days. Simply stunned by the playing of VW since seeing him in the late 80s with Bela Fleck. Both are titans of the bass guitar. My problem is Berlin constantly criticizing and name-dropping Wooten and Steve Bailey and others whose teachings differs from his. So fucking childish. Wooten by contrast, takes the high road and ignores the whole debate and just continues doing his thing. There is no right or wrong. I learned to play Jeff's way but I became a more complete player by doing things Victor's way and being open-minded in my approach to playing bass.

@MrKingclaude1

2 жыл бұрын

the problem is when you are a highly acclaimed academic but still someone with less music academic title make it bigger than you.

both

No mention of Berlin playing with holdsworth🤔

This is great for a discourse analysis, that hopefully some phD graduate will sort out in a tidy manner. Obviously many good points on both "sides", but the communication just doesnt work in a constructive way.

I side with Victor on this

Jeff Berlin is of course right. You cannot possibly put attitude, swing, emotions into your playing if you don't know how to play it.

Both are right in their own way. People need to stop trying to pit these guys against each other. Jeff can like what he wants a d so can victor. TO EACH THEIR OWN. I play bass, and learn something new everyday from all bass players. And forcing one way on a person is wrong. NOT ALL teachers teach the same way.

I believe music is like a second language. There may be different approaches to learn it. Student’s should find the way that works best for them.

Jeff can get session work. Victor can't if charts with notation are required to read, and Victor has said so himself in many many interviews. Both are great.

Btw, is that reply a few months ago really Jeff Berlin? Deserves a reply, no?

There is no right or wrong , only do lol I sound like Yoda, I’ve been playing since I was 12, a little late if your in the Wooten camp,I think if reading as being able to solidify what you are hearing. Growing up in Manitoba ( North Dakota would be a good American counterpart) during the winter months gave ample time to drop the needle or rewind the tape, this is all pre internet, pre PC to be more accurate. I think one has to find a balance between the 2

I personally think both are actually correct but, the odd thing to me is Jeff Berlin plays with Billy Sheehan; Billy Sheehan is self taught, literally. If you look at any of his dvds or videos, he teaches in a very similar fashion as Victor Wooten; and yet Jeff Berlin says none of this to Billy Sheehan. Why not? Not everyone has the money or the ability to go to a school and be taught in that particular fashion. There are so many people men and women who pick up an instrument and just start playing. As they go along in life, they just get better and better and better. They can both coexist. There is room for everyone.

Why can’t both be correct?

@snakeeyes1662

2 жыл бұрын

They can and are

VW's playing is limited to modal or static harmony while improvising. JB sells musical education, VW sells a feel good ideology.

Jeff. Period.

they're both amazing players and instructors, so I wouldn't even dare to question their teaching methods or approaches... examples made on the video are all insightful... for me it's not about pro VW or JB, it's about my own necessity in learning the bass... what do I want to know? what do I need to improve? and so on... and hands down, VW and JB are two of many bass virtuosos to listen to and learn from...

I agree with Jeff 90%, Victor 10%. Structured learning is more efficient and universal. Adults do not and cannot learn like children. We have to consider learning bass as a means to and end. What is your goal? For me, as an amateur, really a hobbyist, learning the instrument is an end unto itself. I plan no pro gigs or touring or studio time. If one is working towards those things, then to what extent will you do those things? Know your goals and interests and work towards them. You won't get a gig in a great jazz trio by feel. If you want to play at the level of Jeff and Victor, most of us simply cannot do that efficiently relying on loopers and feel especially in later years of life. No, you need structure. I have no high ambitions for my playing. I have studied music theory for bass, paid for some lessons to that end. I've worked as hard as I have time for as a non-pro. I bought on-line lesson materials to learn to read music and to learn walking bass. I combine those things for practice as often as I can. As a result I've played better in the past 2 years and learned more than in 18 years before that. For years I relied on noodling, learning tunes, playing in cover bands and annoying my neighbors. I made no progress. Find a goal, work toward it, learn material, practice, get a teacher or more than one if you can.

Jeff's right.

Obviously both...

No right or wrogn, but I go with Victor Wooten totally

I think Jeff should keep his opinions about Victor's teaching techniques to himself..Truthfully what Jeff is teaching or saying has been said and taught for year's..I never heard him play or say anything that hasn't been played or said ..But I sure can't say the same about Victor more folk want to learn what make Victor tick Vs Jeff. So if you just want to be an amazing reader and play strictly by the book's well Jeff can teach that but if you want to groove and read music listen to Victor.. Victor would never do that to Jeff but this is America SMH

@lumpyjazz

Жыл бұрын

I agree with you completely! I was as wrong as could be by my uncalled-for criticisms and apologized online and to Victor and Steve Bailey for my poor behavior. I won't ever enter into criticism again. You and others were right in seeing my behavior as negative.

les deux mon neveu

Its called music theory not fact

My vote for wooten

You learn to speak by just speaking with adults.not everyone is visual and learns by reading music

@fearnoevil65

8 ай бұрын

So learn a language but be illiterate in reading and speaking it, LOL that's not very smart

I think they’re both right. The main reason I say this is because we can hear and see this through their music. But I’d have to favour victors teachings as they allow musicians to explore their freedom and find more of it. His lessons also do have a lot of theory. It’s a backbone of playing, he doesn’t neglect that

Billy Sheehan " The Goat"? Hmmm

@MarkMarxonsBassChannel

6 ай бұрын

😂

I'd rather be street smart than book smart.

@fearnoevil65

8 ай бұрын

I'd rather have more knowledge than just memorizing patterns

@michaelwilson2340

8 ай бұрын

@@fearnoevil65 Then you're not going to survive. Reality isn't a pickle ball game Mr Buckley.

@fearnoevil65

8 ай бұрын

@@michaelwilson2340 You do stupid and uneducated, I'll do me

The thing is they’re not actually polar opposites, it’s not that victor is not using any formal musical concepts he simply communicates them differently. And it’s not really a conflict between the two of them,it’s a conflict with jeff who continues to be combative instead of focusing on his own teaching methods. It’s very unfortunate that a musician with the legacy of Jeff Berlin has chosen to die on the hill of criticizing what somebody else does instead of Just letting people decide what resonates with them. Jeff has gone on record as saying that victor is teaching methods are “dangerous” to The bass community, that’s coded language that means a lot

@MrKingclaude1

2 жыл бұрын

JEFF BERLIN lived in the same era as Jaco Pastorius, but why didn't HE become as popular as Jaco? because Jaco had something unique, a touch like no one else. some players will boost about their ability to read music or music education background but it does not make them necessarily an outstanding players. outstanding players get noticed or talked about. Everybody knows about guitarist Wes Montgomery right?

@flyingsayon

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrKingclaude1 there is a lot of unique musicians that would give Jaco a run for the money. It is not only a matter of talent but also bands, luck, entrepreneurship sometimes. Well, many factors come into play. In the following list I would not give my preference to anyone: Jeff Berlin, Jaco, Percy Jones, NHOP, Mick Karn, Jon Borg. Yet not every of these players is on the same level of fame.

I love Jeff's playing, but his attitude is really depressing. Not every musician wants to be a master. Where's the love, the enjoyment. Even Miles Davis realized he was missing something after seeing Sly and the Family Stone. The pure enjoyment of playing and connecting with people.