I worked for a company that built high pressure refrigerant systems, and we did a lot of testing to find the best type of joint. It's important to note that there are different grades and formulations of solder. The stuff you'll find at the hardware store made for plumbing is plenty strong, but they don't even come close to the strength of specialty high Ag formulations which overlap on the lower end with brazing processes. The issue we had with brazed joints in our testing was that the copper became annealed at the temperature required to braze, and this resulted in an overall inferior assembly. The joints themselves are strong, but the heat caused an excessive amount of damage to the crystalline structure of the copper. Soldered assemblies at 1000 psi had a significantly lower failure rate than brazed ones that went through our accelerated lifespan testing.

@jemjones5675

2 ай бұрын

This goes into welding, but, as I'm sure you know, but for others, when you heat a metal up super high, you ruin the crystalline structure that has been "grown" during the production process. That's why in metal working, after high temps (like red hot metal) you have to do what's called Tempering to regrow the crystalline structure of the metal, which is what gives it's more strength then just being metal. So. You could, in places, premake your pipes with higher temp-stronger brazes, and then temper them before installation. But that's fairly unfeasible in on-site locations.

@zachreyhelmberger894

2 ай бұрын

Wow! Great to know!!

@jasonthurston799

2 ай бұрын

@@jemjones5675 Isn't a lot of HVAC regrigerant line copper already soft (annealed)?

@felderup

2 ай бұрын

would it be possible to pressurise through cycles to work harden with water pressure?

@jemjones5675

2 ай бұрын

@@jasonthurston799 Maybe? I don't know, I was just going by what I know about metal. I know that I've seen refrigerant lines be super soft, but I don't know if those are for low pressure systems or not; I would assume that those are annealed as they are soft. Shrug.

I love this testing, and this confirms my point with refrigeration techs that never believe me - a soldered joint using something rated like Stay-Brite 8 is possibly stronger than a BRAZED joint. The problem is brazing weakens the copper from the high heat needed to braze. Solder temps do not do this, and it's just as strong as shown here. It held twice the pressure. Notice how the copper failed close to the braze joint, the heat affected zone. Any more of this type of testing you could do is great!!

@VTdarkangel

2 ай бұрын

I'm a refrigeration tech. My main concern with using stay brite vs. braze is the temperatures the system operates at. Compressor discharge temps in a refrigeration system can be over 200 deg F. That's hot enough that it makes me question whether a solder joint can hold over time given its lower melting temperature. If you get into large supermarket systems, nearly all the pipe in the system can go through regular thermocycles of up to that temperature daily, sometimes multiple times a day. The 15% silver braze I use has an application temperature of around 1500 deg. As long as I do my job correctly, I know I'll never have to worry about that joint failing because I have seen properly brazed joints well over 50 years old still holding leak tight.

@JohnChuprun

2 ай бұрын

@@VTdarkangel Stay Brite 8 solidus point of 430F and liquidus of 535F. Meaning it is solid at 430F and lower, and won't become liquid until 535F. While yes, in some high heat circumstances I agree, but even in R410A you aren't going to see above 150F (for the record, that would be a pressure of 615 psig, which the system would shut down by that point).

@VTdarkangel

2 ай бұрын

@JohnChuprun You're referring to liquid saturation temperature. The temperature of the gas as it comes out of the compressor is much higher than saturation, especially in the supermarket systems I work on because of the higher compression ratios that are required. Any system that has a hot gas defrost will experience those discharge temperatures throughout the system periodically throughout the day. That is a lot of thermocycles that can put a lot of thermal and mechanical stress on joints over the life span of the system. However, I will grant you the AC application. With the exception of the pipe between the compressor and condensor, the thermocycles of an AC system are considerably less severe compared to what I regularly work on.

@alexirwin2093

2 ай бұрын

The main problem with soldering on refrigerant lines is the acid from the Flux getting into the refrigerant. This will break down the compressor windings over time.

@sivalley

2 ай бұрын

​@@JohnChuprun AC tech and ex Navy nuclear plant operator with a concentration on chemistry controls to toss in my two cents. While the liquidus temp of soft solder will never be reached by compressor hot gas under ideal situations. (I Have seen system discharge temps approaching 250F) You do not have to get close to the liquidus temp for the alloy joint to fail for the same reason a blacksmith doesn't need to bring his iron to the melting point of steel; plastic flow. The joint will not fail immediately. But it will eventually fail as the solder slowly flows. I have been to repair calls for residential heat pumps in the winter time having the vapor lines separate and completely lose their charge leaving behind the tell-tale shiny silvery alloy on the stub and having to go back with 45% silver alloy to get enough whetting for the joint to hold. Now, this not to say that silver soldering copper has no place in refrigeration, so long as it's less than 1/4 the liquidus temp like cold vapor only lines, or low velocity refrigerant flow systems. Finally, a correction to your assumption about heat affected zones; copper does NOT flame harden, it only work hardens. The heat affected zone works counter to your assumption; heating copper to brazing temperatures aneals it making it LESS prone to fatigue failure from overpressure, however because he applied heat to such a narrow point at the joint with respect to the pipe diameter he created a stress riser and explains why the failure occured where it did. You are supposed to heat 3 x diameter of the pipe to create a gradual stress relief in hard pipe (not necessary in soft pipe). The use of type L is not recommended for systems above 600psi, which is why K is used in refrigeration applications so both should have held up to 6kpsi as the soldered test did, but improper technique caused premature failure in the brazed sample.

As a pipefitter I was told/trained that brazing strengths are it can handle heating and cooling cycles better (like in refrigeration) and ductility when buried. Solder is faster, and cheaper but is more likley to crack if heated and cooled, or if the joints are flexed.

@nobodynoone2500

2 ай бұрын

They thermally expand at different rates. Brazing is closer to the copper.

@kennylavay8492

Ай бұрын

so in reality what is the difference the fittings hold and the pipe blows, oranges to oranges. they the pipe fails not the fittings.

The brazed pipe definitely got annealed from the excess heat. Love the videos!

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Thanks 👍

Test pro press fittings please

I started using a special solder for AC work. Private. I'm not a contractor. Harris Staybrite No 8 has a bit higher melting point than normal plumbers solder. I was not able to break the line with a 200bars nitrogen tank. The brazed joint blew next to the joint, where the high heat from brazing damaged the copper. So when using the correct solder, it is better than brazing. Same here! The braze blew at half the pressure as the soldered pipe did.

makes sense. The brazing temperature actually weakens the copper, BUT a brazed joint can withstand much more heat before the joint fails. I have always been told that is the reason oxygen and flammable gas systems require brazed joints, so that they won't fail in a fire.

Id like to see you test K and M copper 👍 keep the videos coming this is great content. 👍

@maxwebster7572

Ай бұрын

I worked at a shop owned by a fellow who started out in aircraft. The in ground air over hydraulic hoists were plumbed with copper and cement poured overtop. I lifted MANY Dodge vans at 6-7000 lbs and the occasional 1 ton with dump body. Never had an issue. The hoist at my Grandfathers shop had steel lines and they rotted out. Dangerous as hell but I still prefer them over electric.

It’s always a good idea to watch your videos, I have said this a lot a of times, most of my plumbing knowledge has been by watching your videos, not leaving behind the California Plumbing code book and the UPC! Thanks Roger for teaching!

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

So glad to hear this…this is why we do we at we do. Thanks for watching brother 😎

Gotta be honest. I like watching anything you do. I really feel like I'm learning something every time I watch your videos.

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

I appreciate that, we have fun learning and doing these experiments right here with you

@Mark-op6tx

2 ай бұрын

​@RogerWakefield interesting test. I wouldn't mind seeing like black iron for fire suppression systems. Also what would happen if you were to use different types of heating and cooling methods. Like if you excessively over heat a pipe then use cold water to rapidly cool down a joint as well as different types of pipes... possibly like galvanized or stuff we dont use anymore. I'm a sparky so it info I will likely not apply but I still like to know.

Did not expect that at all ! Always trusted the soldering and it is looking promising ! thanks for the content !💪

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

No worries! Glad you enjoy what we do

Watching this really makes me happy that I'm old-school and stick to soldered copper. Especially when compared to PEX. Just something about a system that's been around for 100 years that even can still be in service 100 years later is comforting to me.

I really enjoy your videos, your energy and how informative you are. Thank you.

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

I appreciate that! Thanks for watching

As a plumber starting in the 70s, brown jersey gloves were my go to when soldering, unless they got wet, lol, i have noticed the antinomy of the solders and quality of brass and copper fittings has diminished greatly since then, thanks for your content

@smille12

2 ай бұрын

Not sure what to do with my old lead ladels. Lead pot and caulking irons anymore, they just take up space in my box, but will keep them for whatever reason, lol

@smille12

2 ай бұрын

@mattmuch7536 antimony , added to a tin lead solder as a substitute for some of the tin , it is added to increase the strength and properties of a solder. It helps the unsimilar materials create a permanent bond. Example of one is 95/5, gooday

@smille12

2 ай бұрын

@mattmuch7536 50/50 has been disused for potable copper since the epa lead and copper rule , where potable water systems had a acidic Langlier index it leached the lead from the solder creating a potable water violation, when the Langlier is alkaline it coated and prevented the release of lead

Really informative and entertaining also, it was easy to listen and get info into my head while watching you blow stuff up.

When I first started in plumbing it was turbo torch and map. After going on my own and with Mapp no longer produced I just use the best Benzomatic portable torch and camping propane. Depending on different research it seems Mappro(Polypropylene) only gets between 5-10% hotter but costs twice as much as propane. I almost always drain lines before soldering, clean fittings & pipe, so I've never had trouble getting hot or getting a callback. If I run into a situation where I need more heat(rarely), I usually run a secondary hose torch which I can control with the bottle torch both with one hand.

Dear Roger. One good reason why companies dont solder is THE BLOWLAMP, THEY GAIN A SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION IN INSURANCE RATES, due to the much lower risk of fire. Having used a blowlamp in a confined space, left the building after 30 minutes for lunch, then returned to be greeted with fire engines putting the house out i very much agree with the change. Another. reason is carrying blowlanp fuel canisters in tunnels is not permitted

Brazing of course in finland we dont even train soldering at vocational school. Everything is brazed using oxyace torch, welds are done with oxyace or tig. Furniture like sinks or copper pipes that are left insight are connected with those crush/squeeze fittings from uponor. I think we only braze because we use brass parts here instead of copper

Good test! This is what I really want to know!

Great video! Thanks for testing and posting

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching!

You should test “best to worst”. Stainless, to type k, l, &m copper, braze, sweat, propress, and sharkbite.

I was almost done installing my HVAC unit and my oxygen regulator popped. I ended up tig brazing my last joint on the suction line. It worked surprisingly well and didn’t ruin anything lol

Yes type k definitely do that one

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Coming soon!

I personally use a map gas proline hosed turbo torch and atlas 370 showa nitrile gloves. I love my turbo torch.

Saw a little bit of leaking on the brazed pipe before the copper blew out...but based on the angle, couldn't tell if it came from the brazed portion or elsewhere. But the solder definitely held up. Great video!

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

It looked like it was coming from the adapter where it attaches to the blast chamber, joints held up!

@theduck17

2 ай бұрын

@@RogerWakefield That's what I was thinking, thanks for confirming!

When in doubt, add pressure and C4!!! I love plumbing, old-school anything better is explosives.

ok I like the turbo acetelene If Im on a job site ill use the b tank almost every time if its handy . but i quit bringing out on small jobs doing resedential repairs or water heaters Ill use the turbo mapp hand torch dont like those quick start types just a regular turbo. You prooved my opinion braze over heats pipe makes it lose the heat treat blows up but the joint itself is rock solid. not uncommon for some jobs to spec out braze on 2 1/2 " and bigger soft solder to 2 inch. Up to you Im not tha interested in PSI of type m or k . great channel thanks

My favorite for soldering and what I first learned how to solder joints when I was 12 years old with is is sometimes called a "b" tank in Canada, it's an acetylene (/ naturally aspirated?) torch.

A portable induction heater for precise temperature control would be a game changer, hot enough to melt but not hot enough to compromise the metal

I would love to see you do M copper the same way, you remind me of my masters giving me homework back in 1980.!

loved this

Great video! I would definitely like to see the pressure difference of L, K and M copper pipe. I'm not surprised that a good solder joint held and the pipe failed. In part, it's because the solder wicks in between the fitting and the pipe, and so you have double-walled pipe at the solder joints but only single-walled in the in the middle. It makes sense that the double walls of the pipe+fitting with solder in between will hold more pressure. That's why I would like to see how much pressure different thicknesses of copper pipe will hold.

@jemjones5675

2 ай бұрын

So would I. I keep seeing how people are doing comparisons of copper vs other materials....but they use like the thinnest copper available. "Yeah these'll only last 20 years"....when the thick shit last like 80 lol.

This is fascinating to me as a welder. I thought the end cap would bust or it would blow in the heat effected zone and it did. I bet the soldered test piece withstood more pressure because of the lower heat input as well as smaller heat effected zone

It's called annealing, metal becomes soft permanently after reaching close to the melting temperature. You can unanneal a metal by heating it and then rapidly quenching it in oil or water, then it's hard again. The braze makes the copper soft, the split hole is smaller because it burst at a lower pressure.

@eclectictech

2 ай бұрын

Turns out that some metal alloys, including many copper alloys, will be very soft after a high temperature soak followed by a rapid quench... Opposite of what is typically done for many iron/steel alloys

@Blilar

2 ай бұрын

@@eclectictech I had figured all metals acted similar but copper seems wack. I guess you have to melt it down and press copper to get it back to full strength.

@bradshockling1055

2 ай бұрын

As mentioned, copper will stay in a soft annealed state regardless of the cooling rate. Once cooled the annealed copper will age harden over time. Cold working will also harden copper.

For me. What i use to solder... i went and bought one of those Propane solder kits from menards... Works perfectly.

This is crazy. I didn’t think it would hold

My first boss preferred soldering over brazing (all else being equal). He said that heating the copper to the temperature necessary to braze also anneals the copper, making it softer and more likely to blow out. I was just 14 when I was working with him, and he was a former chemical engineer for Merck who would balance formulas for drugs, so I never questioned him on such things. I noticed that the brazed pipe blew out at 3,600 while the soldered pipe blew out at 7,000. So I wonder if that supports what he told me. I also worked as a building mechanic for a different pharmaceutical company on a campus with 38 buildings. They would constantly remodel and the plumbing contractors almost never soldered or brazed joints because that required a hot work permit. Because of the scope, scale and red-tape restrictions, it was more expedient for them to ProPress everything. The younger plumbers in that company, as talented and professional as they were, didn’t even know how to solder simply because they never needed to do it. And ProPress does suck. It was a running joke between the maintenance mechanics that our job was to follow the contractors from building to building fixing all the leaking ProPress joints since we could solder without hot work permits. Me and one other mechanic, Mike, must have repaired around 50 leaking joints in my 7 year stint on that campus. Maybe it was their tools being beaten up or neglected or failure to recalibrate them - but that’s still a pretty high failure rate. I didn’t mind tailing the contractors at all, I really enjoy soldering. It’s somewhat cathartic.

@YungSteambuns

2 ай бұрын

​@@mattmuch7536 it's definitely for a long period when brazing, 3/8 usually takes about 15sec But 3/4 can take up to a minute sometimes and sometimes a little longer if it's a coupling in a weird spot and you have to get both sides

Awesome!

I’ve seen this test done between solder and press before but I’d like to see it on your box

Was there a specific code per NFPA that required you to braze? I use MapGas but i also only have to solder every so often for sensing lines

Just a humble addendum, I still do carry a can a Mappro in the work van just in case like a security blanket but truly never had to use it.

Solder I use a turbo torch stk-99 mep gap with the built in lighter. For brazing I use turbo torch with a b-tank don’t remember the model.

My theory for why the pipe failed at a lower pressure on the braised joint was because the copper was annealed more by the higher temperature softening it.

Not sure if you've already tried it, but I'd love to see press fit connections tested.

If I had to guess, I'd say the higher process temperature of the braze joint weakened the copper itself, which is why that pipe failed at a significantly lower pressure than the soldered test article. They both failed close to the fitting where all the heat was applied. But it's also worth pointing out that just one sample of each isn't a rigorous test, or a large enough sample to indicate correlations between processes and failure levels.

I staybrite 8 a lot of new AC refrigerant lines. It caused me to stop putting flux into my fittings. To try and prevent flux from getting into my system. The annealing of the copper from high temps caused it to fail under less pressure. I have many AC systems 20+ years old still cooling. I braze my hot gas discharge line. Suction connection on compressor or anything before the condenser coil/ refrigerant sub-cools. Lineset fittings getting enclosed behind sheetrock I also braze. Many freak out on my vids cause I like to solder my lineset fittings. 😂😂😂

I’d really like to see a k-type copper pipe, fitting and joint pressure test!!!

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

I’d like to try it out too! We’ll start that soon

I use a butane torch thats modified. Its a blazer pro brand.. thing gets hot for butane.. can melt aluninum easily..

Have you done a pressure test where you solder a joint then cool it down immediately with a wet cloth, vs a joint that was left to gradually cool?

Thanks Mr. Wakefield I def learned some things. Magic is such bs though.

I spent 2 years working at an r&d company building prototype furnaces, and we got to blow stuff up like this sometimes 😁😁

Ex military, USAF 1986 to 1993 Aircraft Hydraulics Technician. Back shop test bench & Titanium line tester setter.😢 Titanium lines once bent nneded to be SET by high pressure so they held their shapes. Small 1/4" lines had a set pressure around 45,000psi if i remember right. 😮😮😮 blew up a good number of lines. Most often blew the expansion tools out of the ends (he k of a mess and booms inside the crash box we built on our Hyd test bench. Love the air oversystems, once cycling a accumulater i had rebuilt I over e tended it on the high speed circuit & coated the shop 😂😂😢😢😢😢. 3hr cleanup and moping on a Saturday. 😡 Blew up a #12 hyd line that also made a heck of a mess, had a 90 degree bend in it. Broke and shot fluid out the 90 in spot that went right out the open top corner of the crash box. 😢😮😮 turned our wall clock pink 😂😂😅😅. Sgt 384th FMS McConnell AFB KS 1987-1991, OTE team B2 Edwards AFB CA 1991-1993.

Stk 9 and ill never change. I just wish victor would sell plumbers repair parts like they sell welders repair parts for their cutting torches. Hey victor, plumbers have the right to repair to. And wether you like it or not I’ve already rebuilt several of my stk 9s

Yes I used to blow up hydraulic hoses at 10,000 psi and above to validate rated working pressures.

I worked in HVAC and we used a small oxy acetylene torch and I liked 6 silver solder because I liked the way it flowed and it was way cheaper then 15 percent and I had to pay for it myself lol

We use an Induction heater for soldering and Brazing.

I don't know about they type of copper lines, but would love to see the type of fittings that just press on. (not thinking of skarkbyte)

Home owner here, never did legal plumbing work. Used a regular ole bernzomatic torch, works for me. Brazing: nope, never had to do it. 😁

I would try using a hammer to fold over and seal a copper pipe to see if the heat from either weakened the pipe. I would also check the expansion wear from heating and cooling the joints excessively to see if that changes things. One should expect the brazing to have weakened the pipe, the solder less so if at all, and the brazing to possibly handle thermal wear and tear better.

I think that the Stay Brite 8 Solder joint is as strong, if not stronger than the braised joint. The excessive heat from the brazing process actually anneals the copper pipe making it softer so the pipe bursts under less pressure and opens up less because it is annealed. I think the only reason why brazing is used in HVAC is because there is little if any prep required. You simply flow nitrogen and that’s it. I have soldered HVAC lines with Stay Brite 8 and and even regular leaded solder and as long as you prep well and use very little flux and don’t contaminate the inside of the pipe, the joints are good, and the system runs for years. Soldering causes no oxidation on the inside if done right. I have never seen a situation where brazing out performed a good solder joint with either lead or silver-based solders. Whether it was Plumbing or HVAC. My HVAC Tech would argue with me to the ends of the Earth about this but has never tried soldering as it is not the industry standard. He has never been able to prove otherwise. I have HVAC soldered joints that are still holding up even after 10 years, so i’m confident in my opinion.

I have a TurboTorch but still have my old Goss Switchfire which also works.

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Which do you use more often?

@lmt7816

2 ай бұрын

@@RogerWakefield the TurboTorch. The Switchfire was my first real (not bernzomatic) torch.

@lmt7816

2 ай бұрын

I just remembered the Goss torch last usage. I helped a good friend replace shower and tub valves in his bathroom. He's a former union Ironworker and wanted to learn how to solder copper & brass, so, I showed him with the Goss Switchfire and MAP-Pro. I started him with the detail Goss torch (TD) on a cap for the spout stubout and then moved up to T1 for the valve bodies.

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

I love that!!!

In Poland we use brazing on copper natural gas lines, only problem i see with them is copper getting annealed near the joint, its always a litlle scary when you need to unthread a fitting from those pipes. There is a significant chance that it's gonna twist and break on you if handled incorrectly. And amount of heat required to braze, in confined spaces, with a flmmable materials all around, i would rather use a press, tyvm :)

Now roger, turbotorch is a brand. They make acetylene, propane, and mapp torches.

I always thought brazing was about contamination? Started working HVAC and my boss at the time said you couldn’t solder AC lines due to flux and solder entering the inside of the system and damaging the compressor. Also was told the vibration and the pressure would rattle solder and threaded joints loose. Boss hated flare fittings. These days about 75% of the AC systems I work on have at least one threaded fitting in them, some are all threaded.

Definitely should have started with K 💪 but would love to see the pressure limit differences between K/L/M. Also, type K with solder/press/compression/push fittings, if you could. Thank you for all of your content!! Edit: step up to a 2" copper pipe with a thicker wall. to truely test them maybe even go as far as special ordering the pipes from a manufacturer with a 0.15" wall 🤔

@RogerWakefield

Ай бұрын

Yes we're planning on testing L and M type copper. Thank you for the suggestions!

The smaller hole on the braze is because it was only roughly 3k psi from the high heat, the soldering didn't get nearly as hot so it retained it's strength

I went to finish a job in Pittsburgh for a plumber , when I got there I brought everything I needed in, then the guy overseeing the site stopped me and said I couldn’t sweat in hot water tanks because,”Greg never solders”. Greg is the other plumber I split work with often

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Plumbers reach out to me all the time and say they aren’t allowed to solder…. CRAZY!!!!!

@williammorris3303

2 ай бұрын

@@RogerWakefield soldering use to be a diy skill, now it’s on its way to being a lost technology. I use propress but at the same time some things need to be soldered. I see ppl make messes with propress because something is to close to press so they circle pipe around Willy nilly to make it get in there

What does it mean to 'fill the cup'? I went to school for HVAC two years ago, and started my own business. I braze with a #2 tip, using Acetylene & Oxygen. That's all I can tell you in regards to my brazing process. I'm really good at brazing, as there are never any leaks from my joints. But I've never heard the term 'filling the cup'.

Before you even started, I knew the failure would be the pipe and not the joints. I think most plumbers would know this.

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Just trying to show everyone….

It would be helpful to dispel the concern over lead solder.

I love the testing but in my country we don't usually use copper pipes we use galvanized pipes and mostly we use ppr plastic pipes

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Interesting! What part of the world are you in?

@Brianplumbers

2 ай бұрын

@@RogerWakefield am from Africa kenya

@Brianplumbers

2 ай бұрын

@@RogerWakefield remember me from your last live chat about safety

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Oh yes! 😅 We used to use galvanized here in Texas too, but we've had them rust and get rough from the inside, causing problems, so we started using copper instead

@Brianplumbers

2 ай бұрын

@@RogerWakefield also here people are not using galvanized pipe when doing domestic house plumbing we use them only when doing 🔥 fire system water piping

The solder is melting quite above 250 C. In it is added led to reduce the melting point (POK 60, for an example). If you use no led solder the temperatur is quite above 300 C. I have no idea what are you using in the USA, butbin Europe is a different picture.

Glad to see that even a master plumber puts his backup wrench on backwards. I’ve been plumbing 18yrs and I still do it everyday 😂

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Maybe every now and then….

I used to blow up aircraft hydraulic lines and hoses on the test stand just to show new airmen how much each size of hose can withstand. The only lines I couldn't blow up were titanium lines.

is it possible to Braze with water still in the copper pipe?

I am interested to know if brazing actually makes a weaker connection in copper pipe. This test is not conclusive as there was only one test with each but the solder joint held more than twice the pressure before the pipe gave out, I suspect the cause is to be the excessively large amount of heat being put into the copper changing its characteristics although I cant be sure without further testing. If so then why braze at all.

@PowerPlay25kV

2 ай бұрын

I suspect the annealed copper from the brazed joints enabled the pipe to fail much sooner compared to the soldered joint. Was hoping the big guy was going to speak to this…

@SilvaDreams

2 ай бұрын

I have a feeling that it is just old method vs new. Old pipes were cast iron so brazing would actually make sense where as modern soldering works much better specially on softer copper pipes.

A fresh joint is much different than an aged joint after electrolosis has attacked it. Add a few temperature cycles on a hot water system and ask any plumber about joints beginning to leak. Otherwise it is a good video. There is a reason refrigeration lines are brazed and not soldered. The temperature cycling and pressure cycles have something to do with it. It would be much cheaper and easier to solder refrigeration systems, but they need to be leak free for years.

To me one factor that could be important is the behavior when it comes to thermal cycling and low temperatures that you see in refrigerant system. Tin has the ability to change state to a non-metallic state through a process called tin pest. That can be initiated at low temperatures (-30 to -40 degrees C), so that's why brazing is better for refrigerant systems.

Solder or Braze essentially they are the same thing melting metal into a gap to attach one object to another the only difference between Solder or Braze is one is high temp(Braze) while the other is low temp(Solder) also the only reason i know of why we have 2 names for the same process is Solder is from Gold/Silver smiths and Braze is from Blacksmiths

@tookitogo

Ай бұрын

Indeed. In many languages they don’t distinguish between them (and some don’t even distinguish welding). In German, for example, their words for soldering and brazing translate to “soft soldering” and “hard soldering”.

Now i can rest easy about all those solder joints ive buried. Never been taught to braze.

Yes. Don't blow up pvc without some serious safety shields. A maint man blew up a 8" PVC sch 80 Chill water line and it punctured tires, took out a section of brick wall, had shards of pipe stuck in car doors. I'm a safety third get the job done guy and i leave plastic pipe alone after seeing the damage. We had repaired a leaking joint at an elbow and let dry overnight. We were supposed to restaart the system but the maintance man said he knew better, let the system fill about half way and turned on the pumps (3x8") with the outlet valves wide open. We had 20 guys out there nonstop for 4 or 5 days replacing the entire system with black steel victalic and weld pipe.

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

That is CRAZY! Hopefully no one got hurt? Pressures that high are very dangerous and we take safety seriously, thanks for looking out 😎💪

@jameskitzmann6268

2 ай бұрын

No one gut seriously hurt thankfully. The guy that turned on the pumps got hit by the doors to the room or something . Myself and my Journeyman were about 10 min away. Ed Thomas Company and a building for Exxon back in the late 70s . That was a very fun company to work for. We were in the plumbing service department , The company was a Mechanical contractor in Houston.

@timmoline2190

2 ай бұрын

Everyone thinks it’s the steel or alloy that will bite you. No it’s plastic.

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Plastic and porcelain!

@timmoline2190

2 ай бұрын

@@RogerWakefield yep that china is as sharp as a katana when splintered

And this is why I always use solder for in wall connections.

Test it with K copper it’s much thicker and I believe it can handle more pressure as well.

Pressures on HVAC systems are considerably higher than domestic home water pressures. I nitrogen test hvac lines, usually up to twice the maximum operating pressure. Mostly done to detect leaks. On one occasion, due to operator error, I tested a system at nearly 1,000 PSI. As a result, the flare joint stripped and the pipe blew out. Quite a surprise as I was bubble testing the joint at the time! So it would be interesting to see some hvac piping tests, not least because the average hvac join I see is nowhere near as good as your typical plumber achieves on water pipes.

@andrewveres3965

2 ай бұрын

Dude your going to hurt yourself and prematurely end the life of HVAC equipment don’t test it that high please from one hvac technician to another

@rayzerot

2 ай бұрын

Dude the manuals tell you what pressure to test the systems at and it's never twice the maximum operating pressure

@davidgapp1457

2 ай бұрын

​@@rayzerotI think it's very good you go by the manual and recommend you continue doing so. I design systems and I know exactly what the materials technology is capable of achieving. That includes tolerance to vibration, embrittlement, corrosion, unintended electrolysis, contamination, stress/fatigue cycling etc.. I watched this video mostly because they're fun and I'm assuming that's why most people watch them. Enjoy!

My theory is what happens when you heat copper is it softens up and it's these soft spots that are the weak point, not the joints.

Maybe I missed something, but the brazed joint pipe bursts at around 3,700 PSI and the soldered joint pipe bursts at over 7,000 PSI. Does that mean the heat from the brazing weakened the structure of the pipe or am I missing something?

I want to see pvc joints, just glued vs glue and primer

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

I’ve tested PVC kzread.infowlcIt4y6M6g?feature=share

Braze will be a stronger connection. Overkill for residential water. Used for AC refrigerant lines,etc

Good Lord! 10,000 psi? You are gonna need more than safety glasses, you are gonna need body armor.

What type of copper were you using for the test? Was it M or L copper? I would like to see a video of testing K copper

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

I used type L

Try with type k hard temper

Braze the split together and see if pipe bust at braze repair or it bust pipe in different spot I allwas wonder if u can just braze a froze and bust back together for a fast repair

@derricknorberg9555

2 ай бұрын

Also can u test a CTS Ford fitting

This is the first I heard about soldering. We only ever silver brazed

I use a mapgas with a push button torch head.

Im assuming the solder held 7 thousand pounds, and the brazed only held 3600 because of the heat stress on the metal? Is this a reasonable assumption or is it more likely a defect in the pipe?

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

That’s a great point, we should’ve done more tests to test out this theory, I’m betting that’s what happened. It’s a possibility it could’ve been a defect but they were both cut from the same piece of pipe so I might rule that out.

@JohnChuprun

2 ай бұрын

It's well known that brazing weakens the pipe because of the heat affected zone. This is why it can handle less than the soldered joint. Would be great to test this more though.

@Blilar

2 ай бұрын

It's called annealing, metal becomes soft permanently after reaching close to the melting temperature. You can unanneal a metal by heating it and then rapidly quenching it in oil or water, then it's hard again. The braze makes the copper soft, the split hole is smaller because it burst at a lower pressure.

i don't know if you have this brazing tool (oxygene and acetylene torch) might help put more heat in a tighter spot you kind of overdid it by the way in france we do mostly brazzing or crimp have fun nice video thaugt

@RogerWakefield

Ай бұрын

I do have a torch but I couldn't find it 😅 thanks for watching from France!

@roheeable

Ай бұрын

@@RogerWakefield thank for your time and reply what is the thickness of those copper pipe here it's 1mm could be a factor because the pipe burst each time not the joint

I'd like to see this test again with comparing minimal heat soldering, regular soldering cook the shit out of the pipe Overkill heat while soldering

I regularly repair copper pipes after they froze and it's always the pipe that fails never the fittings or joints.

Hello, I recently got hired at roto rooter. They use a pipe fitter and have told me that they do not allow soldering or brazing. I'm trying to get into a good apprenticeship. Should I accept this job or stay with my current company until something different comes along?

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

What is your current job?

@dotsonk33

2 ай бұрын

@RogerWakefield I work at a coca cola syrup plant. I want to at least get experience in plumbing and elevate into journeyman and eventually hopefully a master plumber.

@RogerWakefield

2 ай бұрын

Did they say why they don’t allow solder or braze? Personally I don’t know much about Roto Rooter but if you’re looking to get into plumbing, that sounds like a better way to go, more than working at a Coca-Cola plant. Stay with them for a bit and get some experience under your belt and then maybe look for a place that doesn’t outlaw soldering or brazing.

@dotsonk33

2 ай бұрын

@RogerWakefield I didn't ask that question yet. (Mostly due to ignorance on my part) but I will when I'm in training!

In my experience being in the U.S. Navy. ((For many years.)) As a Hull Maintenance Technician. (Plumber, Welder, Firefighter, Problem Solver of any kind.) We only used brazing, or welding on copper nickel (70/30) piping. Solder joints were an absolute no go. Mainly because plain copper pipe corrodes too fast in salt water. (((That would be very bad on a ship or submarine at sea.))) I have personally passed pressure tests of over 3500psi, braze, 6500psi, weld. On .250 wall thickness copper nickel piping. I understand that you are using plain copper in your demonstration. Which is fine in residential plumbing. However you don't mention why you would want a joint that could withstand that kind of pressure. Residential piping would almost never get over 100psi. Aside from the fact that you still need flux with brazing. I don't know of any instance where you would want to use brazing in residential piping.

@jameskitzmann6268

2 ай бұрын

AC lines and joints under a slab are about all

@boby115

2 ай бұрын

@@jameskitzmann6268, all AC manufactures require brazing , above and below ground . Code requires all underground waterlines to be brazed. Maybe Roger can shine some light on why 🤷🏻‍♂️. Also Roger is pro press & flare fittings allowed underground ?

@jameskitzmann6268

2 ай бұрын

@@boby115 Brazing is stronger than soft solder and less prone to cracking when soil moves. Pressing is allowed underground by the manufacture and codes. Flare is as well. They now have approved solder for ac systems as well as press fittings. Code wise each juristriction is different so what works in one might not in another. He is in Dallas and I am in Houston and we have different code requirments

@JohnChuprun

2 ай бұрын

CuNi pipe is a whole different beast. You have stress corrosion issues with silver brazing alloys.

@boby115

2 ай бұрын

@@jameskitzmann6268 , thanks for the info.. I don’t think I’d trust a press or flare fitting under a foundation or slab. Municipal codes should never undermined the national codes , enhance the strengthen for the better good ,absolutely; in doing so they should have documentation and acceptable reason (most public works engineers / city engineers do )