The saddest part is I feel like, through the whole story, Arthur and Hosea were the only two who DID have Dutch’s back. They wanted what was best for him and the gang the whole time

@elperrodelautumo7511

7 ай бұрын

They were the real heart of the gang. With them both gone, so was the Van Der Linde gang.

@theoutsiderjess4869

7 ай бұрын

Can't forget Miss Grimshaw

@TxasRed

7 ай бұрын

When Hosea was about to die I thought the game was going to launch me into deadeye. It hurt a lot when he got shot and I couldn’t save him. I was basically too shocked to speak.

@sleepybim

7 ай бұрын

@@theoutsiderjess4869 Can* forget. 🗿

@aaron75fy

7 ай бұрын

sad part is Dutch was so delusional that anyone who questions his plans was seen as disloyal, when Micah usurped Hosea's position as number 2 instead of it going to Arthur he was able to sow seeds of discord

When Dutch didn't even try to go recue Arthur after Colm took him. That was the first sign.

@Nationof300

7 ай бұрын

I was just thinking about that and the fact that he kept sending Arthur on those dummy missions to get killed

@justice_of_Youtube

7 ай бұрын

He didnt even know he was kidnapped dummy

@SkilletToast

6 ай бұрын

Yeah I kinda thought that Dutch set him up there

@jongual7112

6 ай бұрын

@@SkilletToast Micah did

@User-swj-

6 ай бұрын

@@jongual7112 it was pearson's idea

Hosea dying was ultimately the beginning of the dying process of the gang. Without Hosea, Micah was able to snake his way into Dutch's psyche to get him to do dumb stuff to raise his bounty. Ultimately Micah's plan was to take Dutch to the highest bounty possible then turn Dutch in. That is why at the end of RDR2 the pinkertons showed up after Dutch shot and John killed Micah. The plan I think was Micah was going to meet with Dutch and then the pinkertons show up and thats when Dutch is taken in, then Micah runs off with the blackwater and the bounty for Dutch money.

@JaggusBaro

7 ай бұрын

Spot on

@israelruiz8706

6 ай бұрын

Spot on. But I really doubt Micah would've gotten free. I'm sure Ross was using him like he used john in red dead 1

@Louie8888

6 ай бұрын

@@israelruiz8706 Maybe if they're able to find something or someone Micah loves, for them to hold hostage. In which case it would probably be his money if he is unable hide it, or his two revolvers that he went to hell and back to retrieve from Strawberry. 🤣🤣

@lucajkx5023

5 ай бұрын

I dont recall pinkertons showing up on the last mission

@SaltyDwarfUrist

5 ай бұрын

@@lucajkx5023 In the credits you can see Agent Ross walking in Micah's camp and inspecting his body.

I honestly think Dutch was always crazy. Bcz in the beginning of the game Javier claimed Dutch killed a girl in a bad way and based on what Arthur said, it was Dutch and Micah's plan to do so. So ever since hearing that I had just the slightest bit of foreshadowing that Dutch was always somewhat not all there

@wolfder6661

7 ай бұрын

Pretty sure Mr grim reaper the strange man said somthin about it in rdr1

@xvirusvibez2929

7 ай бұрын

@@betterconsole I'm just saying he's never shown the craziness until now. Always thought about it but never followed through with his psychotic ways. Just my thought

@Sqk.

7 ай бұрын

@@wolfder6661he did, he said her name was Heidi McCourt

@boglurker2043

7 ай бұрын

I agree. I think it’s a case of Micah’s brutal methods rubbing off onto Dutch. They become increasingly more desperate and in desperate situations it’s easier to cut corners so to speak. Still though, he’s a POS for leaving Arthur to die, TWICE. Three times if you count the Odriscoll kidnapping.

@user-ls3gv8mj3g

7 ай бұрын

Agreed, i think Dutch always had that type of person in him but the more things fell out his control the less he could help himself

He never turned against Arthur. That would imply he was on Arthur's side to begin with. We even see in the very beginning of the game, if Arthur or anyone else slightly questions Dutch, Dutch guilts them or uses some other manipulation tactic to get them to stop. The only one who could keep him in check was Hosea, but otherwise, Dutch looked out for Dutch and he loved to be the king of his little band of misfits.

@dolepeaches6500

6 ай бұрын

This theory is so dumb

@Michaelomeister

6 ай бұрын

what theory? @@dolepeaches6500

@aiden-sy3ex

6 ай бұрын

@@dolepeaches6500 nah, dutch was always a sociopath & narcissist. hosea kept him grounded but when he died it was only a matter of time

@dolepeaches6500

6 ай бұрын

@@aiden-sy3ex I’m not gonna get in a heated debate again with somebody and call them retarded and hear the same lines over and over again when they don’t add up.

@nctsgrass

6 ай бұрын

Hosea could hardly keep him in check. Dutch argues with him in chapter 1, by getting mad at Hosea who was simply concerned for everyone's safety Then there's dutch ordering to rob cornwall when Hosea strongly opposed Attacking and killing bronte when Hosea strongly opposed And there's camp interactions where Hosea shares sentiments that Arthur took 5 chapters to start feeling. He even tells John early in chapter 2 he should think of his family and leave with them if things go south. He knew dutch couldnt be stopped (& that hosea himself didnt have much time left)

This is the moment Dutch turned into HeisenLinde

@randombalkaner4363

7 ай бұрын

Impresivly unfunny

@Howsthedaybays

7 ай бұрын

This is the moment Dutch turned into Cornwall

@juanluis2855

7 ай бұрын

Bravo Vince 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

@Xavier_Breaking_Bad

7 ай бұрын

​@Howsthedaybays to me, Dutch had me questioning his leadership when he thought he was able to outsmart the Gray's and Braithwaites. Hosea was still alive, and even then, he wasn't willing to listen to any logic or reasoning and would ignore anyone that told him otherwise because he needed "them (the gang members) WITH him not AGAINST him (his literal words) He was always a narcissist and a hypocrite, but it took me a while to see it until I played the main story a few more times. Like the video creator said, Dutch just wanted blind loyalty, rather than just loyalty. A competent leader would have hopefully tried to think more about what's best for everyone and not just himself or his ego. He saw himself as more as a Robinhood character, but in reality he was just a dark and fucked up dude who was a power hungry outlaw who would kill in cold blood, no questions asked if you even looked at him the wrong way.

@eancola6111

7 ай бұрын

@@Xavier_Breaking_BadEven after they clearly blew their cover he still tried one last job for the grays, and we all know how that worked out

I think you're pretty spot on about the Lakay "chess move" scene and Arthur rescuing John, being the times we see them butting heads, but I honestly think the root is ultimately Hosea's death. Arthur+Dutch+Hosea were the original gang. Collectively they were the leaders of the gang, each holding a role. Dutch the charismatic "planner" and personality figurehead of the gang, Arthur as the muscle, protector and heavy hitter, and Hosea as the anchor, voice of reason and the one who took the "grand plans" and actually made them reasonable and workable. Though I hate to say it, because Hosea is so likable, he also kinda kept Arthur "in his place." If you replay the game, keeping an eye out for it, there are many many times when Hosea "teasingly" tears Arthur down and reminds him that Arthur is the muscle and not brains of the operation. We also often see Hosea question Dutch and pulling Dutch down to earth with reason and concerns. We also often see Hosea encouraging Arthur not to worry or think about things too much and just trust that Dutch will get them through. Ultimately, Hosea was very much a mediator and glue that help Arthur and Dutch together. After Hosea dies both of them are very shaken up and full of doubts about the future. They also both try to find ways to fill the void Hosea's death left behind. Arthur feels the need to fill Hosea's shoes in holding Dutch accountable and bringing him down to earth, concerning the real threats and needs of the gang. The whole "what about the women" line ect. Dutch starts looking for ways to keep people trusting him, in their place, while struggling to enact his "grand plans" into something grounded and actually effective. Neither Dutch nor Arthur can fill the void Hosea has left. They both stumble and fail and they see one another stumbling and failing, which erodes their trust and confidence in one another even more. So if I were to point to one root moment where the bond between Arthur and Dutch really starts to break, I'd say it was Hosea's death, even though Arthur and Dutch don't really interact with one another during that event.

@lulabalooo3565

7 ай бұрын

very insightful and good read. nice one 👍👍

@Gfre12334fdc

7 ай бұрын

I ain't reading all that

@justice_of_Youtube

7 ай бұрын

@@Gfre12334fdc lazy

@jacohenn42

7 ай бұрын

@@Gfre12334fdc you should

@luckythatsit

7 ай бұрын

Perfect👌

There is a very interesting dialog between Sadie and John on the Epilog, in which they both theorize that the Dutch they knew (Peaceful, generous and empathic) never existed. It was just a disguise to hide his truly devious personality. It's actually a very believable theory and I don't see people talking about it much. To be honest, just like John and Sadie, I believe that Dutch was always a manipulative Sociopath. He just slowly revealed his true colors as the years went by.

@aaron75fy

7 ай бұрын

I think The Professional said something similar in his analysis video as well

@nervosadustbolt9642

7 ай бұрын

You can only wear a Mask for so long, before it starts to become itchy & you have to take it off.. Even, if it's only Briefly. So, yes.. I would have to agree.. He never was whom he portrayed himself to be.

@baraalhm2455

7 ай бұрын

When I started playing RDR2 for the first time, I never liked Dutch . He seemed so manipulative to me, and I was right

@qualified-monkey5096

7 ай бұрын

There’s a similar sentiment from Arthur on the ride from the Oil Refinery to Wapiti (with a wounded Eagle Flies). It’s when he talks about the Indians being used by Dutch and reflects that Dutch likely used him and the rest of the gang in the same way. Dutch was always using the gang to further his own goals, at the expense of their safety. It’s why Dutch chooses desperate people to groom into his cult.

@aaron75fy

7 ай бұрын

@@baraalhm2455 you knew from the start huh? you're quite perseptive

When Dutch randomly says he thinks Arthur will be the one to betray him because he seems the type, he sounded very bitter in hindsight and back in Chapter 3 at that. It's one of those things you don't pay attention to, except when you look back at it.

@theoutsiderjess4869

7 ай бұрын

It wasn't until Arthur's death that Dutch realized how wrong he was even about his betrayal

@VGamingJunkieVT

7 ай бұрын

@@theoutsiderjess4869 Even then, he thought John betrayed him until John gets through to him. Only then, does he actually realize that Micah was the rat all along. The fact that they exchange a glance and let each other go was more than proof of that, John could've shot him if he wanted to but he was just there for Micah.

@jordyalmonte42

7 ай бұрын

Ironically enough I remember in my play through, Dutch said this to Arthur in chapter 2. It certainly raised my eyebrow

@eg4441

6 ай бұрын

@@jordyalmonte42i spent a LOT of time in each chapter and got this interaction in chp 2 as well. i already knew dutch was shady or at least ends up being bad but i definitely was like "oh okay bitch i see how it is" when that happened. dutch is really your classic manipulator, charming and good with his words, and he takes in people from mostly rough backgrounds who have little else to rely on or live for. he cares about others for as long as they make him feel good

@rouvengru5250

6 ай бұрын

dont pay attention? Arthur is Dutchs executioner and was basically raised by him, so that moment in chapter 2 when dutch drops that bomb about arthur betraying him in the end because hes the type is a real wtf moment. even arthur reacts like that if you let him.

Dutch didn't turn against Arthur, he turned against himself as most of the principles that Arthur knows was taught by Dutch.

Ppl talked about Dutch changing when he hit his head robbing the trolly station but there is something he says as soon as you start chapter 3 after you chase down those criminals that escaped and after you Dutch and Hosea go fishing....as soon as the boat docks Dutch sits back and says "I think I .....I mean we are gonna be ok" it's a little thing but it shows that Dutch always only ever cared about Dutch

@diabeticmonkey

7 ай бұрын

I’ve always assumed that the head injury was the final catalyst to Dutch cracking. Brain damage plus the trauma of Hosea dying could’ve taken away what little was holding him back from being 100% crazy.

@METALGEARMATRIX

7 ай бұрын

​@diabeticmonkey Brain damage can remove inhibitions, that compounded with Hosea's death removing the gangs Moral compass lead to Dutch revealing his self-serving attitude

@Jacob-wb9qp

7 ай бұрын

@@diabeticmonkeyhe acted so different after that’s the crazy part

@mikeb5063

6 ай бұрын

Dutch probably has narcissistic personality disorder from the get go, pretty sure he sees Arthur, John, Hosea and his other favorites as extensions of him self, He probably does care to some extent but he does take priority. Hosea was the closest thing to a therapist Dutch was ever going to see, Micha was the opposite of that.

@sussyslurp

6 ай бұрын

@@mikeb5063 Bipolar could be likely as well, The trolley thing just seems so minor, I mean arthur literally gets shotgunned in a cutscene and he just lives as the odriscals ride with him hogtied. And lives. Dutch just bumps his head, and lives idk man the gameplay too always falling off buildings and other goofy stuff. edit: forget to mention yeah i agree 100%

For me it started before the gang killed Bronte. On their way to the swamp to meet Thomas and Jules he says to Arthur that Micah is the only one left with any loyalty

@B_noJ

7 ай бұрын

I too was going to say chapter 4.

@theoutsiderjess4869

7 ай бұрын

It started before then even in Chapter 1 ge thought Arthur of all people wasn't loyal

@blackmambo8702

6 ай бұрын

But that didn’t come out of nowhere, it was built up since the beginning of the game. Dutch killing that girl during the Blackwater Heist for no reason shows that has been changing the whole time

@daftywooshoes3709

5 ай бұрын

An interesting part about that conversation is that if you listen to the whole thing, Arthur points out to Dutch how he’s been by his side for 20 years, causing Dutch to realise if even just for a moment how truly loyal Arthur is, and then he goes on to tell Arthur how it’s just everything that’s been going on and him feeling as though everybody is doubting him, that is wearing him down, causing him to act the way he is.

What’s funny is, it wasn’t a problem when Micah was broken out, but it was a problem when John was broken out. Dutch was definitely changing over time

@JohnnymarstonNegsarthur

7 ай бұрын

Big difference from a small jailhouse to a fucking prison

@Dontizzle24

7 ай бұрын

@@JohnnymarstonNegsarthur right because breaking someone out a city jail where you massacred and shouted out Arthur’s name the entire way was much better than a prison break.

@JohnnymarstonNegsarthur

7 ай бұрын

@@Dontizzle24 You realize that Sisika was way more dangerous that a fucking town made out of just straight wood with mediocre lawmen

@Dontizzle24

7 ай бұрын

@@JohnnymarstonNegsarthur and do you realize the jail break in strawberry put more eyes on them than the prison break ? It was a small town that got massacred. Micah was literally screaming Arthur’s name the entire time of the mission which means he was implicating his accomplice lol. And the guy he broke out was the person who ended up working with the Pinkertons.

@alphawmusic

7 ай бұрын

@@Dontizzle24 To be fair, the fact that he was screaming Arthur's name doesn't matter all too much because pretty much everyone in earshot was killed. Witnesses who did survive were hightailing it and could likely only provide a vague description.

Theres some potential of Kieran: the last member of the gang, one of the least influenced by dutch and more than likely had some kinda affect on arthur. Him saying about Dutch and Colm being alike is something we think about afterwards. I feel like dutch found out and probably decided not to look for him, even tho he could have spilled to the odriscolls about the new camp location.

@10171981

7 ай бұрын

I think Kieran's innocence really was his downfall because I believed he went back to the O'Driscolls thinking that all would be forgiven considering he was forced to go with Dutch and the gang and ultimately was considered a traitor by the O'Driscolls and brutally tortured and executed after giving the whereabouts of Dutch's hideout. Kieran was too innocent and trusting for the gang life and it caught up with him.

@LEEEENNY

7 ай бұрын

@@10171981 doubt he went back when we look at what he said about the odriscolls

@blu.draigon

7 ай бұрын

@@10171981 arthur tries to kick him out with kieran saying if he goes back to them he will be killed to arthur letting him stay in. at no point did it seam like he wanted to go back to colm in my opinion.

@Ethan-wr2os

7 ай бұрын

@@10171981 He says at Jack's party joining the gang turned out to to be the best thing he'd ever done, no way in hell he went back to them lol they kidnapped him probably at some point after, or even during, the party at Shady Belle.

@friccle_

6 ай бұрын

@@10171981Kieran dies when Jack is saved and everyone gets drunk. Kieran gets wasted, wanders into the forrest and most likely gets snatched by the O’Driscolls

I think when Micah said told Dutch that they were possibly going to have a "truce" with the O'Driscoll's and wanted Arthur to be the sniper and lookout on the mountain. They pretty much left Arthur Morgan to die with the O'Driscoll's, but he escaped and survived. When Arthur asked, "You guys were going to SAVE ME weren't you"? My gut feeling was like...oh my god! They were REALLY going to leave him to die and might have even KNOWN that it was a set up and was perfectly content on letting it happen anyway! Another time is when they got the boat to kill the Italian boss and Dutch told Arthur to go get the guy being attacked by the Super Croc. Dutch didn't exactly move that quick on the trigger to save Arthur! Dutch would rather have Arthur die "in battle" rather than potentially have a political fallout if Arthur leaves due to not going along with Dutch and his plans.

@Bestow3000

7 ай бұрын

Someone pointed out that you can make the case of Arthur usually always wandering of on his own after because he leaves camp way too often. It's only when you take too long they will send someone (Bill) to look for you and that happened in game.

@theoutsiderjess4869

7 ай бұрын

Dutch know damn well that Arthur is the heart and workhorse of the gang if Arthur dies in battle he becomes a martyr he can use his death to inspire the gang. However if Arthur is alive and will betray him he knows that Everyone will go with him. Finally he replaces him with Micah as dutch not only doesn't have a plan, he is unwilling to play the charismatic father figure much longer, he wants soemone to feed his ego he wants to her hear he is a genius and not that plan is awful

@theoutsiderjess4869

7 ай бұрын

​@@Bestow3000true but Arthur is the only one working so they don't have an issue with him leaving, they also send charles and javier

@10171981

7 ай бұрын

@@theoutsiderjess4869 I can hear it now ! If Arthur would have died, Dutch would be like "you know what Arthur would have wanted" and pretty much use that line EVERY time it was Dutch's idea but everyone did not want to go through with that plan of Dutch's. Just to get the gang to blindly follow Dutch without question.

@killianmccluff36

7 ай бұрын

Who was getting attacked by the bullgator?

During my 2nd playthrough of the game where I put over 200 hours slowly navigating Arthurs story and enjoying every moment. I heavily critiqued the unrealistic and cartoonish decline of Dutch, towards the end of the game. His rapid advancement from emphatic leader to crazed narcissist always felt unbelievable to me. It took until my third playthrough to realise how perfectly Rockstar did it. We see everything through the eyes of Arthur, we see the community and family, Dutch has grown. We hear the stories of his greatness. We are led to believe he changes in the game. When in truth he just becomes worse at hiding his true intentions. He is always planning tactics, reading about rebellion and toting values on others. He views the gang as pawns even if he doesn't realise it. Only seeing their love when it represents in unfaltering loyalty. As his family fails, he finds refuge in Micah who butters him up and brings him vultures who want nothing more than to benefit from his downfall. He mocks Arthur because he doesnt see him as a son but as a traitor. He only values unquestionable loyalty. Seeing his gang as an army. Even Eagle Flies is used as a soldier in a war the natives cant win. Dutch isnt high class but he so desperately wants to be viewed as an equal among them. He kills Angelo when he mocks Dutch. He kills Cornwall when he is cornered and outsmarted too. Wanting nothing more than to bite back and seem strong. Only in the end, when Arthur lays dying, is Dutch able to see his foolishness and snap out of his delusion. To see that the loyalty they showed him was more than he deserved. It wasn't the tram crash or the deaths or any of that. Dutch just saw the world one way. In the end, only when he is exposed as a fool. Does he begin to see the real enemy, eventually resulting in him killing Micah. Although he still remains broken and bitter. Leading to the desperate and callous RDR1 Dutch.

@nathanielwowchuk6880

6 ай бұрын

This is put perfectly! I just realized this, too. Dutch just veiws the gang as a means to an end, and he will say whatever he needs to get that. However, the loss of Hosea and Micah being in his ear excelorates his loss pf composer.

I have seen in my plays many places where Dutch started turning on Arthur. I feel it started after they got back from Guarma and he had the time to process the death of Hosea and Lenny. I think it set deep when he found a new face to manipulate in Eagle Flies and the tribe's young men. The nail in the coffin so to speak was when he insisted that John be removed from the gang and then again at Cornwall's business as he walked away from Arthur. That's my theory anyway.

This game is still a king

Another clue is that he didn't even bat an eye that Arthur is sick or dying.

@titanusgodzillaa4274

2 ай бұрын

he knew, hed mock arthur sometimes

@ewandavies6774

2 ай бұрын

After the Pinkerton ambush right after you get back from guarma is when Dutch realised and he’s concerned

8:30 id also like to add another reason of why he killed Bronte like that is because of his position. Dutch is a narcissist and they are known for being very insecure. Dutch knew that Brontë was someone who is superior and is above Dutch in many ways due to his wealth, status, and place in society. Because of Brontë being more superior, Dutch knew he couldn’t reason with him and get into his head like he did to colm odriscol who is someone that’s inferior to Dutch, so the only way he felt he could deal with him is to murder him in cold blood out of rage, jealousy, and fear. He didthe same thing to Cornwall, another man who’s superior and has high status and Dutch instead of reasoning with him he murdered him

@GDKF0238

4 ай бұрын

However, Cornwall and Brontë are the same as Dutch. So no one really loses on the end

Well I remember Dutch saying to Arthur he will betray him eventually. Which was a really akward moment for me. I had a forshadowing since then. And in the end we all knew he eventually does betray at least John in RDR1.

@emilyprice178

7 ай бұрын

I've had that happen too. It happens all the way back in Chapter 2! It's a random camp interaction. I was just casually walking by Dutch's tent, and he blurts out "I think you'll end up betraying me one day, Arthur" (or something to that effect). It's so out of the blue, especially as during Chapter 2 Arthur is still pretty blindly loyal to Dutch. It just shows how Dutch was so paranoid about being betrayed, even early on, that he saw signs of it when they weren't really there, and manifested it himself with his own behaviour.

@kamikazestryker

7 ай бұрын

@@emilyprice178 yes that was during the Rhodes act. I don't remember when exactly but remember it was the lake side camp. Yeah it was really strange saying it to Arthur who was still the most loyal to him.

@emilyprice178

7 ай бұрын

@@kamikazestryker I had it happen at the Horseshoe Overlook camp.

I started replaying the game for the third time recently, mainly for the secrets and missions I never completed but once I got to chapter 6, I experienced something I never have before. I was out looking for a certain bridge trying to find the serial killer and Bill rides up from out of nowhere saying something like "Dutch has been real worried, you've been gone a while and wants you back. You coming?". I don't know whether this happens in other chapters or not, this was the first time I saw it, but the fact that Dutch sent Bill out to look for Arthur really drives home how paranoid he gets towards the end of the main game. In the other chapters, you could spend forever doing whatever but once chapter 6 hit, once the fear of betrayal set in and once the fallout began, Dutch sends out Bill to look for Arthur. It's almost hypocritical, Dutch goes on about faith yet he doesn't have faith in Arthur and the fact he gets Bill to do it, or possibly even another gang member, says a lot about how he perceives himself. Why didn't Dutch go looking for Arthur if he was so concerned? No. Instead, he has the members do it instead like tools or accessories which is something you see throughout the ENTIRE game. Rdr2 is an insanely detailed game from the main plot, to small mysteries found at the very edge of the map that people are still trying to resolve and the fact I can write a whole damn paragraph on ONE encounter really proves how good this game is. I think Dutch needed therapy. A lot of it.

@jeffp.7598

7 ай бұрын

If you stay away from camp for extended periods of time somebody will come looking for you. Ive had several different people come looking.

@thefinalkayakboss

6 ай бұрын

Yeah ive had charles show up randomly while i was near pleasance during chapter 3 and tell me hes been tracking me for days.

@xcobmi

6 ай бұрын

I had Javier come after me once too

The signs were there since chapter 1 he is always asking Arthur if he is doubting him or going to question him like hosea. Which is odd as Arthur defends Dutch in these chapter like a loyal son. It got worse by chapter 4 and guarma it wasn't until things completely gone to shit that. Dutch started to antagonize Arthur as Arthur finally became his own man and that upset Dutch cause if Arthur was healthy the whole gang outside of micah, bill and javier would have left with him

You should do a breakdown of Arthur's journal.

@CynicGTA

7 ай бұрын

👀….i like that idea!

Dutch turned on Arthur when he gave him his back just to let him get killed. Other previous events are examples of Dutch's behaviour with people like John, who let him in jail as a replaceable element of his gang and because of his deep hate for John knowing how he constantly disagrees with him. Or Dutch questioning Arthur's loyalty due to the moments Arthur doesn't agree with him

i noticed immediately after robbing the train station, in the mission where you go to lakay when your riding there with dutch he talks about hosea losing his spine and eventually says micah is the only one he can rely on anymore.

@10171981

7 ай бұрын

"Well at least MICAH goes along with me and doesn't QUESTION everything I do" -Dutch talking to Arthur. 🙂

Hell, Dutch casually accused my Arthur of betrayal as early as Act 2 in camp. It seemed really out of place at the time, so I thought maybe it was a glitch.

The spot he started to turn is just before the pinkertons offered everyone their freedom if arthur gave up dutch and dutch asked "why didn't you take the offer?". He was already considering betraying arthur then and there cause it appears had he got that same offer he would have given up arthur.

I always like this momment with Dutch tone changed John ? insist ?:D

You could see the signs at the very start of the game when he speaks to Charles: “Get indoors, son! I- *we* need you strong.”

I’ve been having this theory, where back in Saint Denis, after the bank robbery, Dutch hits his head badly, and I think that, along with Hosea’s passing, really messed him up, and throughout the game from that point you can see Dutch rubbing his head where it was hit, even in cutscenes. You can mess with this theory however you’d like, this is just something I’ve took notice in my second play through.

@truthteller9154

6 ай бұрын

That's a common theory that hasn't been entirely ruled out. You could also make the argument that by that point in the game Dutch had already been pushing his & the gangs limits by planning the bank robbery. They should've been laying low until the heat was off.

In a quite prophetic way you also seem to get attacked by wolves more while free roaming between during chapters 5 and 6 because of the location of camp. Kind of like a subtle warning of things to come.

I'm a big fan of your content and finally got around to subscribing. You have been an inspiration for my channel. Whenever I'm drained and need motivation i seem to find one of your videos , watch it, then i'm energized and focused to get going on another production. Keep up the great stuff!

Dutch had a hard time adjusting to they way the world was moving , Arthur knew they were heading no where fast. Arthur was still loyal to Dutch he just had a different type of integrity. And Micah being in Dutch’s ear didn’t do him any justice .

Very cool video man, nice pace, watched it while rolling up and you kept me company. Cheers to you mate

Dutch: the biggest, most well written antagonist in the game. Also Dutch: Doesn’t get killed by the protagonist he has betrayed. Side note: I know Dutch is not meant to be viewed as a classic villain that wrongs/betrays the protagonist because in the end although John defeats him, John doesn’t pull the trigger on him. Dutch may not have been completely malicious at the time, but he left his two sons to their deaths and pretty much helped Micah seal Arthur’s fate. If John knew that, I doubt Dutch would’ve walked away in the end of RDR2. I wonder if John knows how Micah caused Arthur’s death to begin with. Some say that he knew but I’m not sure.

i always felt he was a little off but Hosea was the calming level headed voice in Dutch’s life. Thats why he was Dutch’s right hand man. and when Dutch followed his ideas and plans things went smoothly. Whereas things went wrong because he had Micha in his ear a lot. Such as the Trolly robbery and the bank job, Hosea was against it but it was Micha pushing for the job. When Arthur got sick his thoughts started to change. Arthur was more so connected to Hosea because he spent so much time taking from Hosea. Arthur was a combination of Dutch and Hosea. So with Hosea death and Arthur being sick and having a change of heart, Micha was all he had a guy that shouldn’t be in the gang at all

@thegamingcook785

28 күн бұрын

I always thought hosea was the father figure, and Dutch and Arthur were the sons. Hoesa always got the best sides from them both, and Everytime Dutch went overboard, the only person he'd listen too was hosea, and without him, Dutch was like an angry child without discipline

great video, excellent production, seeing you only had 2k subs was a shock. Good job, keep it up PLEASE

yes there was sings in the very beginning since chapter one and if you didn’t catch them it just shows you how well rockstar written a manipulator like dutch

The "crack" were already there even when they were still at the horseshoe overlook At one random camp conversation, dutch already called arthur as traitor sarcastically. I think it's already there and it gets bigger and bigger as the stories goes

@Robman0908

7 ай бұрын

He randomly chews you out as if you were stalking and going to harm him. It was bizarre but makes sense that he was always unhinged.

More people should pay better attention to the campfire conversations and read Arthur's journal. There's so much info there about what the gang and its leadership use to be. Dutch was always pretty selfish and only gave kindnesses when it ultimately benefited him (short term or long). The trolly mission was when Dutch got a concussion. He never got what little treatment might of helped, but Hosea's death was the final nail in his rational coffin. There are many details in Dutch's character that point to him being a narcissist and anyone questioning him (outside of Hosea) was off limits in his mind. I'm certain Dutch has always been out for himself, but he couldn't be by himself, that's why he always needed followers. He's a cult leader really, but in some skewed way he did love the gang. Which is why I believe he went back to find Micah, get the blackwater money, and kill Micah to take his gang (like Micah took his, so to speak). Just so happened that John showed up before Spring could break, leading Dutch into a choice rather familiar. Finally he chose to save John, and walk away from the money, ultimately getting some small measure of -- redemption.

@0StarGirl5000

7 ай бұрын

I think there's very good evidence that Dutch has both Narcissistic Personality Disorder and is also Bipolar. Throughout the whole game we can see Dutch swinging between manic highs and depressive lows. He goes from being completely confident that everything will turn out right and singing songs or racing horses with his friends, to brooding in his tent, accusing his best friends of likely being traitors and yelling at his girlfriend. He thinks he can solve everyone's problems and is basically some kind of outlaw messiah who will user in a new world, but at the same time refuses to take personal responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

@theoutsiderjess4869

7 ай бұрын

I actually think Dutch didn't even want the money when he shot micah if anything Dutch shooting Micah and walking away was a Goodbye to not only Arthur but to the man he was.

There were signs as early as Horseshoe Overlook when Dutch says cruel stuff to Arthur. An example is the comment about Arthur being the most likely to betray him as he's reading beside his tent. The most obvious sign was getting abandoned after the meet up with Colm.

I think Hosea’s death was the moment Dutch realised the things went out of hand. After that, came John’s arrest, the moment Dutch didn’t care anymore that’s why he didn’t even try to save him. However it is, it’s like John once said to Sadie. Sadie was there to watch Dutch change, John and Arthur were there to watch Dutch showing his true face.

Dutch's actor did such a wonderful job. He could turn on that superficial charm and when Dutch gets mad, it can get legitimately terrifying.

Arthur looks so ridiculous with maxed out beard lol

The Guarma mission in that cave (when Arthur says to Dutch “but you said you knew Spanish”) is the first time Arthur properly stood up to Dutch, and that is where they start to fall out I think. I don’t recall any instance where Arthur has called Dutch out in that way. I mean specifically call him out on something he’s done, not just saying “you sure about this”. Since Dutch had never experienced Arthur doing this to him, in a way it kind of distanced him from Arthur. And after that if you pay attention to the dialogue in the rest of that long ah Guarma mission, Dutch starts to question far more often Arthur’s loyalty and faith. So that’s the point where they start to fall out. Now, for the explanation of when Dutch started going crazy is way different. I think he started going crazy before the events of RDR2. He was not always crazy like people say. He turned crazy after the gang picked up Micah and failed the Blackwater ferry job. In the prologue/colter, they mention him offing an innocent woman, for seemingly no reason. That’s the main point where he abandoned his morals and started going crazy. But in the game of RDR2 he is always crazy. It’s just that he hides it good from chapter 1-4, and loses it in Guarma.

Crazy part is Dutch always talking about loyalty yet he did nothing when aurthur gets captured by colm & almost killed when the whole thing was clearly a setup . Personally think dutch was gonna let john rot in prison if it wasnt for authur breaking him out . By the end Dutch is only loyal to himself while Arthur was trying to save as many people as he could before he died . Dutch just used arthur until he was no long useful which came pretty quickly once he got tb. I wonder how different things turn out if hosea never gets killed seemed like the last thing that kept Dutch in check

@Nationof300

6 ай бұрын

No actually almost everyone betrayed Dutch in the end that’s why he didn’t really give a fuck about who stayed and who left the gang

@truthteller9154

6 ай бұрын

Dutch isn't loyal to one individual but rather the group itself. Hosea was probably the only person Dutch was loyal to and might have listened to. Dutch is more or less like a coach trying to inspire confidence and loyalty to everyone in the group and not single out anyone. It's hypocritical of him to talk about loyalty when things go south for the gang at anytime but ultimately Dutch was looking out for the gang and sometimes sacrificing one or two people for the roughly dozen members of the gang is an unfortunate reality that Dutch understands.

This is the moment Dutch became Heisenberg.

Well… It’s important to remember that Dutch already chose Micah over Hosea and Arthur before the game even started. He chose Micah’s Blackwater heist over the thing that Arthur and Hosea planned. It’s pretty clear that Micah’s brutality rubbed off on him because when he kills that girl on the ferry, they are all surprised because he’s never done something like that before. The job obviously went bad and then he neglects Micah for a bit and he goes back to listening to Hosea and Arthur. He knows he’s losing them so they go on that fishing trip and puts them in charge of finding leads in Lemoyne. Then Hosea eventually dies, now Dutch chooses to rely more on Micah because 1. Arthur is getting weaker due to the TB. 2. Arthur is openly questioning Dutch and taking matters into his own hands. 3. Micah is still strong and Dutch believes he’s still loyal. I think the better question would be: At what point did Dutch start stringing the gang along with the promise of Tahiti so he could use them for him own selfish reasons? Because you could argue it was at ANY point in the story.

It was really Arthur who started turning on Dutch. Dutch was an outlaw through and through, and Arthur started wondering what it was all for and disobeying orders at every turn. He was right to do so, but when Dutch rode off with the money instead of going to get Marston's wife, it was exactly what you'd expect he'd do. Arthur was the one who was too grounded to stay on his get rich or die trying path.

@kaydens6964

7 ай бұрын

The most important plan Arthur sabotaged with a direct disobey is breaking John out. Dutch literally said”not yet, not now, I need time and no traitor” only actual execution could clear John’s name being the rat at Saint Denis, Dutch would organise a rescue attempt at the execution with a peace of mind. Arthur would have been shot in any other gang by doubting gang leader constantly and doing things behind his back😂

@potatothemainealt2474

7 ай бұрын

Yeah thats why i play low honor so my arthur mostly cares about himself and i see dutch as a rival so i always antagonize him and barely micah since im out of camp

@Nationof300

6 ай бұрын

Bro you’re the only one in these comments that said the correct thing so far. This game gets you caught up in forgetting that you’re a gunslinging outlaw instead of a law abiding citizen. Dutch was always the same person throughout the entire game and nothing changed with him whatsoever but however when had Hosea constantly doubting Dutch and Arthur constantly doubting it made Dutch not trust his 2 right hand men and it made Dutch question himself as the leader of the gang. And so therefore Dutch started killing all of these people with power and robbing even more to prove to the gang that he wasn’t weak and he was still the most feared outlaw

I don’t wanna be “that guy” but in regards to the thumbnail, the correct grammar is “WERE there signs?” 😂 great video tho!

@piotr78

6 ай бұрын

I wanted to be that guy but now i dont have to anymore :p

@LateNightHalo

6 ай бұрын

@@piotr78I’ll be the bad guy for us

I have a theory that Dutch was trying to get rid of Arthur the entire game. He wasn't going to save Arthur from Colm O'Driscoll. He might have even conspired with Micah to get rid of Arthur during that mission. Micah definitely conspired with Colm, Dutch too maybe. He ordered Arthur to go down in the swamp knowing full well that a giant alligator was there, Arthur's life was in grave danger there and Dutch didn't care. All for petty revenge. In chapter 6 it is clear that Dutch really wants Arthur gone. His plan is very convoluted but there is a plan to get money. Yet unlike other missions Arthur is in even more danger than ever before. He is tasked to steal dynamite but Micah doesn't even join them. It is truly a fools errand, a suicide mission. To steal dynamite and escape on a slow wagon. If not for Arthurs extraordinary skill and maybe some luck he would have been blown to pieces. That is what Micah was hoping for and probably Dutch too. Dutch doesn't directly try to kill Arthur but more indirectly. Like how Tywin tries to get rid of Tyrion in game of thrones. So why does Dutch do this? Partially I think that Dutch is a sociopath without empathy, he only cares about himself. You can see this with his women too like Molly, he only desires women but he doesn't care about them. But the main reason he turned on Arthur is because of blackwater. Not that Arthur did anything wrong but because Dutch lost alot of confidence from that failure. Arthur is number 2 in the gang after all, a leader, well respected and more intelligent than what many give him credit for. In his own twisted mind he sees Arthur as a threat. You might have forgotten this because this was early in the game but in the Valentine camp he tells many times that he thinks that he will betray him if you talk to him. He is surprised that Arthur didn't take Miltons deal for freedom and he seems suspicious in general. All while Dutch taking Arthur for granted. He seems to forget that without Arthur they would have died many times before considering that Arthur saves their ass in every shootout with impossible odds. They wouldn't have survived past Valentine. And basically all the money that the gang saved up throughout the game came from jobs that Dutch wasn't part of but Arthur either led or helped with. Dutch's plans was terrible throughout the entire game.

I think the biggest twist that shows Dutch had kinda lost it with Arthur was just being willing to let him die.

I have been watching you videos for the past week while I’m at school I really enjoy them and I moved at the beginning of January and I can’t get on my ps5 because it is being moved here by some movers

Chapter 1: Dutch seems optimistic and proud of everyone's resolve, despite the challenges they face fleeing Blackwater. He seems unhinged in going after the O'Driscolls when the safer move was indeed to lay low and travel further. Mistake number 1. Chapter 2: Dutch spends most of his time reading in his tent looking for false inspiration to persuade everyone to keep their spirits in following him, and his anxiety builds. He pretends to be noble and care but few are starting to see it's all been an act this whole time since he is so deeply affected and grounded, not taking action when people need him most. Mistake number 2 Chapter 3: Dutch seems more level headed, but gets greedy when Micah poses the opportunity of the plan to rob both of the families. It's odd how he seemingly doesn't care too much that Arthur almost dies at the hands of the O'Droscolls, or care about the rift he's creating in his relationship with Molly. Mistakes 3 and 4. Chapter 4: When Hosea dies, it traumatically effects them both. But not before he happens to decide to go after Bronte not long after suffering a major head injury during the trolly mission. I have no doubt the betrayal, head injury, and Micah fanning the flames all contributed to Dutch getting more unhinged after his bloodlust revenge mission to kill Bronte and go after the bank. Going after Bronte was THE last mistake that triggered a domino effect of events that followed. Chapter 5: Dutch seems more bloodthirsty in his battle on the shore of Guarma, and more convinced (probably through Micah) that John may be a rat. He's not making mistakes anymore, he's fully descended into madness. When we arrive in Lakay we can see how gone he is. Chapter 6: Dutch sees his perfect victim, and strikes at exploiting the Native American youth to manipulate. An absolute tragedy, considering one of his core creeds that he seemed to firmly believe in was equality of race, and standing up for the Native American people. Here we see has truly come full circle and as John put it "We have become, what we set out to hate" in a campfire event. When Arthur left to rescue John, it was truly OVER. Dutch turned against Arthur the MOMENT he defied him in rescuing John--as it was defiance of his control. Dutch LOOSING control was his biggest fear. So in essence, he lost his mind over loosing his power over his followers. He may not of even been mad at Arthur--but Arthur disobeying him represents anarchy amongst his most trusted and oldest gun, his 'son' his senior right hand man. He knew he lost it--it was only in the end as Arthur dies when he realized his failures

These videos are very well made and written!

Dutch hit his head in the trolly job. While everything was falling apart he had a concussion and lost all his wits.

There is that mission with the trolley that crashes after the failed coach station robbery. Dutch mentions in that mission he took a blow to the head and is "seeing three of everything." And from that point forward things with dutch get far worse far quicker. I fully believe that blow to the gead really negatively affected Dutch.

Like all petty tyrants, Dutch grew paranoid, surrounded himself with yes men, and distanced himself from his real friends, blaming them for his own failures.

What a insane video man keep it upp

Found your channel today and your's video are top notch

@CynicGTA

7 ай бұрын

Im so happy youre enjoying the videos

Go back to this scene in chapter 1. 2:50--In Chapter 1, Arthur asks Dutch "what happened on that boat?" To which Dutch responds with "we missed you." Which tells me he blamed Arthur for the failed ferry heist, and he was at odds with Arthur since then! I peeped this on the first day i played the game, 1 day after it was released.

I think the turning point for Arthur was the killing of the old woman in Guarma. Him boldly stating to Dutch “.. You gonna strangle me too?” Hit so hard for me as the player, seeing him stand against dutch for the first time.

I feel like Jack becomes a bounty hunter after the game ends. In my mind, he got Sadie to teach him more about shooting and hunting a person down, so he was able to find edgar.

All I know is he started turning on Arthur before Blackwater. You can tell when the big three go fishing that they truly loved each other, but at some point, Dutch was on tilt, pursuing failing plan after failing plan, only trying to save himself. The point of no return happened before the game even started.

I think the actual turning point in Dutch's perception of Arthur is when he saves John. This is the first time Arthur has gone behind his back, and that is when Dutch realizes that Arthur doesn't have faith in him. The reason I think this is because Dutch always speaks to him strangely after this and rarely tells Arthur what the plans are at the moment.

I’m 2 seconds in and I can already think of multiple incidents where you can see them distancing from each other

I think one detail you overlooked was Molly's death. Prior to that point, Dutch had conflicting opinions on Arthur, and the seeds of distrust were planted, but had Arthur not tried to convince Dutch not to kill Molly and let her go after she ratted on the gang, all faith Dutch had in Arthur's loyalty was damaged. If Arthur was willing to defend someone who had ratted on the gang, how was Dutch supposed to trust Arthur to not do the same? Though I believe Dutch's distrust in Arthur would've progressed with or without Arthur's objection to killing Molly, I believe it's the main reason Dutch goes from half-trusting to silently antagonizing him so quickly.

hey man! i'm a huge fan of your videos and the content you cover. i just wanted to point out that the titles of your videos could be better served with a grammar fix; 'were' instead of 'was' i.e. were there any signs like i said, big fan of your content :)

@CynicGTA

7 ай бұрын

💀 funny i originally had it like that and thought “nah switch it to was” haha. Just my luck, right?

14:47--My favorite line from John in RDR1 is "you always have a plan, Dutch."

Dutch hatred towards arthur started when he left him to die at cornwal's factory no need to be philosophical about it , it is so obvious ..

Dutch once said to Arthur that he will step into the HELL itself if Arthur is guarding him😢

This was the most amazing video ive ever seen

he says the same thing when they are at horseshoe overlook where author says I insist and dutch waits then says it back to him in disbelief

I believe it started after the botched Heist at the trolley station. When they crashed the trolley, dutch hit his head really hard in which I believe he needed medical attention, could have been a mild concussion. That might have created a chemical imbalance.

In a way, Dutch's decline is a good example of Vass' insanity quote since everytime something good happens to the van der lin gang it abruptly stops by O'Driscolls, Pinkertons, and the law, and which happens 4 times, and each time it ends the same. Until the final chapter where a different outcome but yet it feels at best bittersweet and tragic to the perspective of the gang.

I think the moment that made him change is during the tramway mission when he hit his head i personally think that it might messed his mind up and gave his brain damage that made him more violent and less of a thinker

One of the first things Dutch said to me in Horseshoe Overlook was something like "You're going to betray me aren't you, Arthur? You are the type" as I walked by carrying a sack to Pearson's wagon. Always struck me as an odd thing to say right out of the gate after escaping the mountains when things were looking up. He also outright accuses Arthur of doubting him in Colter as they prepared to ride out to Colm's camp. Dutch was paranoid of Arthur from the very beginning. I think a better question to ask is when did Arthur start turning against Dutch. If I could pinpoint that moment, I'd say it was in the oil factory attack when Dutch left Arthur to die instead of helping him. Another relevant observation is the fact that the two most outspoken critics of Dutch, Hosea & Arthur, were not included in the Blackwater score. So, it seems Dutch was turning against both of them prior to the first scene we ever saw.

He got brain damage from the trolly wreck. He got a severe concussion and told Lenny he needs to “sleep it off.” Which you ARE NOT supposed to do.

Chapter 2 at Horseshoe overlook Dutch says to Arthur *"I expect you'll betray me in the end!"* Which is funny because it was Dutch who betrayed Arthur

Nah it was way earlier than that. For me it was when the explosive didn't go off during the train robbery. But his descent into madness started in Blackwater when he shot that girl

I love how Early in chapter 2 when walking by Dutch, Dutch will sometimes remark how he knows Arthur is going to betray him.

nice video love your content

Once when I was at horseshoe overlook Dutch said to me “ in the end I know you’ll betray me Arthur, you look the type” and Arthur was like what you mean by that lol but it was really random and very early in game

ive said this so MANY times: Dutch was always crazy.

Personally I think it was always there. Dutch has been beating himself up for the Blackwater Heist. He questions Arthur’s loyalty several times in Colter. When I played my second play through, my wife saw through Dutch immediately. “So he didn’t like any idea that isn’t his own, huh?” Made me think.

Micah - "You'll figure it out boss...you always do". That was the quote that fully showed me that Arthur had been replaced. That was Arthurs quote to Dutch in camp throughout the entire game.

Chapter 2. During my play through (I had already beat the game at the time) and I was walking by Dutch at camp when he said: “You know Arthur, I have a feeling you’ll betray me one day.”

I always felt like it was when he hurt his head in the troll mission in chapter 4. After that you can see a drastic change

Right after Dutch hits his head during the trolley mission, there's a mission that has Arthur and Dutch riding together away from camp. I forget what they said exactly but I sensed some tension between them both. I think that was the first real bit of tension I noticed.

The very first sign was “200$ tent for Dutch “ I was like hell no. 😂

I read somewhere that the trolley crash possibly gave Dutch a concussion or minor brain damage which in turn caused his mental state to deteriorate. There's another head injury Dutch suffers when you rash the boat full of horses into the shore. That one he seems to be dizzy. This could be another turning point or more minor brain injury.

Like you briefly mention theres 2 times in colter he questions arthur for doubting during some of missions

Thing I caught in chapter 2 I been staying at camp mostly and once you see dutch reading a book. Go talk with him and he would speak gibberish. I’ll stay there for awhile, do a mission and spend my days at camp. Thing I caught the most was, the books he reads he would relate his ideas later in the campaign

I think that after the trolly heist and after he hit his head and having micah whisper in his ear that's when he starts distrusting Arthur

Love this channel

"youll betray me in the end arthur" horseshoe overlook chapter 2

There is an interaction right at the very beginning of Chapter 2, like right when you first arrive at horseshoe overlook and even before doing the saloon mission with Lenny, where if you walk past Dutch he will say something along the lines of "I think you will betray me one day Arthur, you're the type." I am on my second playthrough and he literally said it to me right after I upgraded his damn tent, I was dumbstruck. I think Dutch went mad long before the events of the game. Probably after taking in Micah and botching the Blackwater heist. He was just able to mask it until Beaver Hollow with the help of Hosea.

Terminal amounts of stress plus a TBI (traumatic brain injury) from the trolley crash. Explains everything.

I remember Dutch saying "i think you will be the one to betray me in the end" as early as Horseshoe overlook as a comment to arthur.