Hating your own customers and attacking them has never worked well for a business.

@dercooney

3 ай бұрын

recognizing your audience and not courting people who aren't it works fine, though

@EllRiver

3 ай бұрын

Not if there nazis

@bobbystrong6849

3 ай бұрын

Tell that to every nation the US has bought oil from.

@scribbles1424

3 ай бұрын

Most of the people trying to change IPs aren't customers nor fans. We seen this with the ideologues who been hijacking IPs for their own goals.

@dercooney

3 ай бұрын

@@scribbles1424 JSG probably could have addressed that. this isn't for people who just don't like your stuff, but those who are tourists demanding changes that likely alienate existing fans

The thing is... these people signed up to write Marvel/DC superhero stories, then told Marvel & DC customers to get lost because they had "bad taste" or weren't the target audience. Its like taking a job to be the cook in an Italian restaurant, insisting on making (bad) Thai food, and telling the restaurant's loyal customers THEY were the problem.

@darwinxavier3516

3 ай бұрын

It's more akin to mediocre cooks who want to work for Gordon Ramsey, but don't want to cook things the way his restaurant is supposed to cook things. It's just a stepping stone for them to be famous because their cooking would never be able to get more recognition than some middle of nowhere diner.

@CadillacBoss30

3 ай бұрын

But the reality is Marvel/DC are knowlingly hiring these people because they want to raise their profile in other demographics. They feel there are growth opportunities in non-white male demographics. Attempting to appeal to different demographics is how all companies grow

@adamkalb1

3 ай бұрын

You think Marvel and DC movies have it bad? Star Trek and Scooby-Doo have it even worse because Star Trek: Discovery and Velma demonstrate how different writers tell these stories their way, for the exact opposite audience demographic from what Star Trek and Scooby-Doo should have and usually have. STD and Velma achieved the impossible - they found a way to make Star Trek and Scooby-Doo, for the other audience who hates Star Trek and Scooby-Doo. They replaced all of Star Trek and Scooby-Doo's idealism and teamwork with torture porn and rudeness, and Velma got endlessly criticized for it, which I truly believe it deserves and now I no longer miss Mindy Kaling when the sequels to Wreck-it Ralph and Inside Out mysteriously recast her for different reasons. I can at least give Discovery a bit of credit for creating its own new characters to follow instead of Velma rewriting Scooby-Doo's classic characters as completely different people, but it is still not easy to watch when it tells a grimdark storyline set before and after the other Star Trek television shows we know, expects us to root for an immoral Starship team who is less uncivilized and progressive than those we saw in better Star Trek shows, and after Season 2 the few good familiar Star Trek characters we saw in Discovery, being Spock, Number One and Christopher Pike escaped to their own spin-off series Strange New Worlds, because Akiva Goldsman and Jenny Lumet (Bobby Cannavale's ex-wife) genuinely wanted to make Star Trek and knew that other writers around them writing Discovery did not want to make Star Trek, they just wish to insult the people who do like Star Trek or know how to make a better new Star Trek series.

@vlo4829

3 ай бұрын

@@darwinxavier3516 I'd say it's more like the chefs bringing rice to the pizzeria and saying they're going to make sushi with the pizza ingrediants. It doesn't work. People go there for pizza. They don't want sushi. And people who do want sushi, don't want a piece of pepperoni over rice. It doesn't work for anyone.

@darwinxavier3516

3 ай бұрын

@@vlo4829 In that specific metaphor it would be fine as long as the pizza sushi was merely an option on the menu. It's not fine when it it served instead of what people wanted. And definitely not fine if the pizzeria decided that they were gonna switch over to pizza sushi from now on because pizza was old and boring. I forget which youtuber said it, but there was also an analogy with new coke vs original coke. People weren't pissed that new coke was added. They were pissed because new coke replaced original coke and you couldn't get original coke if you didn't like new coke. Idiots will say shit like "the original cartoon(or whatever) is still there, no one took that away from you". But that's like saying you can still drink original coke instead if you spend extra effort tracking it down vs just going to any store.

The problem with "it's not for YOU" is that generally the phrase is used whenever someone points out ideological bs in a movie that is just shoehorned in without being relevant to the plot. And usually the movie is a remake or a sequel of a piece of media with a large, already existing fan base and ithe phrase is lobbed at those fans of the original media.

@emersonfry1927

3 ай бұрын

The quintessential example is Brie Larson saying that "A Wrinkle in Time" wasn't for 40-year old, white, male critics. Which was disappointing for this avid fan of the book, who also happens to be a 42-year old white male.

@CreamerOfTheDairySquad

3 ай бұрын

@@emersonfry1927 classic example. Whenever they take something great from our pasts, and make it into shit, if the fans complain they say "well it clearly isn't for YOU" and they bitch about the only reason their work failed was due to misogyny or racism

@emersonfry1927

3 ай бұрын

@@CreamerOfTheDairySquad They're not 100% wrong. It did fail due to misogyny and racism - just their own.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

Yup. This. People have unironically hurled that phrase at me when I told them that the Amazon Wheel of Time and LOTR series are trash. Uhm, those books were for me. Specifically me, a (hwite) man who likes fantasy books and European history and folklore. They were written by men like me, for people like me, and that is why they sold millions of copies. Trying to retcon stuff and alienate the existing millions of fans an IP has, to pander to another audience that barely exists, is a bad business strategy.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

@@emersonfry1927 To be fair, looking at her career, I have to agree that everything she is in, isn't for me.

The comment is 100% accurate. Imagine how much better Star Wars would be if the people that demanded it be made to suit them were ignored. We have seen what happens when you do not gate-keep people that absolutely should be kept far from the fandom. If a person needs a property to change for them to be a fan, then they were never going to be a true, lasting fan of the property in the first place.

@dragongamer4753

3 ай бұрын

well... george lucas took that advice to heart and we got the prequels, so it's not always going to work out.

@MSpotatoes

3 ай бұрын

​@dragongamer4753 Despite all the faults of the prequels, at least George had a cohesive vision for what he was doing. The same cannot be said about the sequels.

@EllRiver

3 ай бұрын

Nazi

@Luciphell

3 ай бұрын

@@dragongamer4753 I totally agree with you. Can I ask you a question, though? Not a "gotcha", but an honest question. The original trilogy IS Star Wars, in all it's greatness. The prequel trilogy, even though it leaned way too hard into politics, still felt like Star Wars. The sequel trilogy does not feel like Star Wars to me, at all. It feels like someone using the names and settings to tell a different tale.(and it is) My question is, do you feel different, or is this just me that thinks the OG and prequel trilogy have a completely different feel to them?

@AuspexAO

3 ай бұрын

You assume the writers were making concessions. I get the impression that the writers believed in what the put in those movies, but you just didn't like what they had to say. Just because a writer has a different viewpoint than you, it doesn't mean there is some kind of conspiracy to make it less to your liking. That's a childish view that for some reason so many right wing weirdos share today. There is no "woke conspiracy" there are just a lot of writers that happen to have progressive views. Here's a tip: Write your own shit. If you're good, people will read and watch it. The prequels were hard anti-Bush politics. You didn't realize that as a kid, because you weren't looking for anything political. Once you got old enough to have (terrible) political views, you start seeing them in everything. I personally don't even think that the sequels have a lot of politics. I personally think The Last Jedi suffers far more from the need to screw with the expectations of the audience than it does to make some kind of message. Do you really think Luke was killed because Rian Johnson *HATED MEN*? Lol. He gave him a heroic death that was admittedly dumb, but it was nonetheless a cool end for a character. Rey accomplished absolutely nothing in that movie. The best she did was to move a rock wall. She had to run from Kylo Ren who managed to take back the forces of the First Order after she helps him remove his competition. It's weird that you losers came out of the woodwork after TLJ. I think it's because regular dudes like me hated the poor-written movie, you guys decided to hijack that premise and make it about "wokeness". I'm 40 years old, so I've never used the word "wokeness" unironically. I can see the world the way it is and I've lived without the glow of the internet, have real friends, and a real family. I suggest you stop playing tin soldier to a bunch of fascists and enjoy life. Maybe go outside and find yourself a nice girl. A REAL one. You know, not one on Twitter making you mad because she said white men suck.

Remind me again, in this era where all art comes to die, including Lord of the Rings, the most important book written in a couple centuries if not more, just torn asunder at the altar of the Modern Audience and The Messsage, how you can even suggest to a sane person to not gatekeep absolutely everything with every fiber of your being? We're at the point where popularizing something good results in a double digit chance of its immediate destruction. It's not "Go find what you want somewhere else." It's "Go."

@mizu7662

3 ай бұрын

Torn asunder? The books are still right there. Jeff's shitty fanfic writers with a budget haven't done a damn thing to the greatness of the true Lord of the Rings works by putting out their fanfiction. It certainly doesn't retroactively reach backwards in time and make the original material worse just for being called the inspiration of a pile of crap like Rings of Power. Stop being such a drama queen who insists the franchise itself is ruined forever just because new stuff sucks. The good stuff is still right there where it always was and always will be. I get that it would be nice to get more content set in Middle Earth that is good, but its not the end of the world if we don't. The same applies to other franchises like Starwars, I see a lot of people mourning the loss of the old EU after Disney decided to 'tidy up' and just set up a new canon and I am like 'when did we lose it? Its still right there'. People place way too much importance on new works being added to a franchise, sometimes a body of works just becomes complete.

@Jonas-lj8ul

3 ай бұрын

Go, and take your filthy hands off of my dream fodder.

@panameadeplm

3 ай бұрын

​@@mizu7662 Yes, the concerted effort of anti-western progressive activism that has coalesced in every facet of media, art and literature, the music industry, the art industry, the writing industry, the games industry, architecture, science, literally, every, field, imaginable, should not worry us one little bit! Because they cannot build a time machine to physically destroy every atom of the society they want to destroy! So everyone should rest assured! It's not happening! Lmao, you think it's happening! So laughable! I'll see you in two years when we'll be at "Lmao, you're opposing it! Such a dangerous fool!"

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

@@mizu7662 No matter what Amazon does, they cant destroy my 1983 third edition one volume paperback. But I know they would set my house on fire if they could. Its not that they are reaching back in time to retro-actively destroy the books. But they are trying to destroy the fanbase of the books. And we have to hold the gates against these people, both the ones making RoP and the people that like it, and say: you are not fans of this IP. Go away now.

@adamkalb1

3 ай бұрын

Wonka worked because Paul King, and the executive producer of Warner Brothers who knew he was the best man for the job, set a good example for everyone else to follow because - they knew that a lighthearted whimsical fantasy musical film should not be directed or written by people who hate them, and who do not care about doing justice to old and new fans of the 1971 Willy Wonka film. Wonka was so successful at the end of 2023 and the start of 2024 because it was made for fans of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, but as a prequel, it also serves as a great new introduction for new audiences who do not have access to the 1971 film and have never watched it on home video or streaming services. You see, there are some exceptions to the trend where classic art survives a new creation that helps them escape being torn apart by the Modern Audience's Message who never cared about the IP to begin. February 21, 2024, 2:01am

Gatekeep! Hold the lines! This is where we darw the line!

The great irony is that those people who did not like fantasy or scifi ARE NOW WORKING ON FANTASY OR SCIFI!

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

Corporate figured out they could make money on it after decades of it being really hard to get funding for movies like Star Wars or LOTR, and it was all downhill from there.

@adamkalb1

3 ай бұрын

@@TheSuperappelflap True, they can, but one does not make more money on fantasy and sci-fi by being a writer or hiring a writer who hates fantasy or sci-fi, because they will always have a terrible idea on how to force it to pander to mainstream? audiences who are not that into fantasy or sci-fi. Studios can not maintain the audience Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings or Indiana Jones already had by making them by people and for people who would rather watch something else.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

@@adamkalb1 They dont care if the movies are shit and not faithful to the IP or the genre. They just suck money out of the goodwill people have for an IP or a brand name until its gone and then move on to the next thing. Disney is an investment corporation that buys up other corporations to suck profit out of and then step over their corpse. This is what all investment corporations do.

SciFi/fantasy has always been looked down upon. But then remember the names, Asimov, Clarke, Herbert, Wells, Verne, Tolkien, Lewis... Never give up on what you love; your goals. You may be remembered with giants!

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

Dont forget about Philip K Dick in that line of sci fi writers. One of the few that has been adapted into a good movie, too. Besides 2001, obviously, Blade Runner was quite good although quite a bit different from the book in tone. Apple is making a Foundation tv show that nobody is watching and it sucks. I guess Dune part 1 was alright but nothing really happened yet, it looked pretty though. I cant wait until someone tries adapting The Fountains of Paradise or Childhood's End and absolutely butchers it.

@kenknowlton3085

3 ай бұрын

@TheSuperappelflap Of course, there are numerous authors who justify recognition but I'm making a point not a comprehensive list. I'm tempted to watch Foundation but realize that it's barely recognizable but in name only. I was not impressed with the latest adaptation of Dune. I like the SciFi Channel's miniseries, Dune and Children of Dune much better. SyFy Channel produced a Childhood's End three part miniseries that I thought was pretty good.

@jaybee9269

3 ай бұрын

Not mentioning Heinlein? For shame!

@kenknowlton3085

3 ай бұрын

@jaybee9269 I think...yep...I already answered your comment before you asked. How about Ray Bradbury? Oh, I forgot him too... and about a million others.

@jaybee9269

3 ай бұрын

@@kenknowlton3085 >> Heinlein was the best because he was clear and stylish at the same time. The Dean of science fiction writers, the grand master.

Gatekeeping is needed. People shouldn't have to compromise their work nor pander to an audience that won't stick around or that is just vocal. Yet you can be tactful about it.

The issue often stems from companies hiring writers who lack enthusiasm for the intellectual property (IP). When a writer dislikes the IP they're assigned to, it leads to a mismatch where they may diverge from the established material, producing work that doesn't align with the IP's essence. While writers share some responsibility for accepting such assignments, ultimately, it's the company's decision-makers who bear the responsibility for hiring unsuitable individuals. This scenario differs from creating original material.

@AuspexAO

3 ай бұрын

See, this is a fair argument. I'm 100% on board with trashing the writers on The Witcher series because it's obvious that they have no respect for the material. They're not just making a few people black or women to fit the modern times, they clearly just don't enjoy the narrative that was being told. I quite liked the first season and with the exception of Triss (I think she looks fine, but I think her acting isn't as sunny enough to be Triss Merigold) I loved the casting choices. I'm as progressive as can be, but when someone writes a masterpiece in narrative, you're going to want to stick to the narrative. If an Asian man comes in and reads a great Gandalf, feel free to cast him. However, when that man stands opposite the Balrog in Moria, he better read those lines from the book.

@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, but we live in a world where people are hired for the checkboxes they tick, not skill or affinity with the genre. If anything the people that didn't like fantasy or scifi from JSG's class are almost specifically being hired to write fantasy or scifi now. Its like they specifically don't want people who like fantasy or scifi to write fantasy or scifi.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

Dont forget Hollywoke is hiring writers based on how many diversity boxes they tick on a form and the evil middle aged hwite men who actually read the books that these series are based on as a child cant get a job.

@MamaMOB

3 ай бұрын

The issue is that they don't just hire writers who aren't enthusiastic about the IP they specifically tell writers not consume the original IP. They don't want these writers to know the source material. They're literally turning these IPs into Edgar suits. The hollow out what's on the inside and put it on and make you pretend that it's Edgar! We all know it's not Edgar!

im just saying if a creator tells you to leave, even if you were a fan, there's no need to stay in a fandom that hates you this matters whether you are the original audience or the new audience for example, why would i stay somewhere that hates me

@sdbzfan1

3 ай бұрын

I love things, but honestly when I look at fandoms today, i just kinda wonder Why would anyone want this, I remember being the only anime fan that openly admited to liking anime in my elementary and middle school and not in an annoying "oh do you like anime, do you like anime" people just knew me as the kid that played jrpgs on my psp and saved anime openings to watch at lunch When I went to my first anime convention I loved it, but the reason why I loved it was being starved of similar people to me growing up, in the end I understand the want for community but feel when it comes to fandom that should have always remained elusive, something like finding gold rather than like an internet forum you can just jump on whenever

@Ramsey276one

3 ай бұрын

*100% THIS*

@Nevyn515

3 ай бұрын

The response to ‘the fandom’ trying to kick you out of the fandom because you’re ’not a real fan’ the obvious answer is ‘the fandom’ is just a bunch of people who like a thing. If someone likes a thing that you both like, they don’t get to tell you not to like that thing anymore because they think you don’t like it properly, the correct response to being told that is “fuck off”.

@jumpfrogable

3 ай бұрын

In my mind if you leave it is only a mater of time before they decide to go to your next hobby and kick you out again. It will continue as long as you make it easy for them.

@sdbzfan1

3 ай бұрын

@@jumpfrogable if a creator wants to make bad decision then they deserve to have their creation destroyed People will always complain what matters is who does the creator want to listen to, those people only have as much power as is allowed to them otherwise they're no different to people screaming at the sky, its not about letting them in they're only there because the concept of "fandom" allows it in the first place There's a reason they arent everything because they gate keep themselves from certain properties

Gatekeeping = good. Being rude = bad.

In general, yeah, telling people "if you don't like it, leave" isn't great advice, but recently it seems too common for the people who don't like something and want it to change, to stick around and continue trying to change it. How many cheeks does a creator (or community) have to turn before they are allowed to draw a line, and tell the rabblerousers to make like a tree and get the heck out?

@CorundumDevil

3 ай бұрын

That depends. Why does this creator get a free pass to tell off the masses, but when traditional creators keep making traditional characters, they're pointed out like it's an intentional slight against whoever isn't in the picture.

@lesliemills3153

3 ай бұрын

You make a good point. There is an art of handling criticism and sorting the valid critiques from the ones the writer should ignore. Rule of thumb: when the reviewer says "it's not my preferred genre," you can politely move on. You are not going to convert him, and while he may offer some valid views on the story as a whole, he is less likely to tolerate the genre's tropes that fans of the genre would accept. For example: More than 90% of romance novel fans are perfectly fine with the plot: "Girl Meets boy. Complications ensue. Girl gets boy." I'm no romance fan, so imagine what would happen if a romance writer asked me to critique her work. I'd be tempted to recommend she change the plot to "Girl meets boy. Boy buys tractor. Girl joins lesbian terrorist group. Boy marries tractor." It might work as a joke, but not as a serious romance novel. When more than one fan of your story's genre state: "This part sucks, for this reason," they may have a point, and you should look into it. JSG gave a good example regarding "Little Shop of Horrors."

0:01 not quite how I wrote a comment elsewhere, but close enough in spirit! Ah, here it is! "So you and your 'friends' don't like it. That's fine. Thousands in Early Access still want it, so you can go elsewhere. We won't miss you because *we didn't notice you were there until you screeched."*

I went to art school and graduated. To this day, I tell people that it was a waste of money, except for learning to get myself out of the way of my works reception. That is a valuable life lesson. Maybe not 60k worth, but still lol

@sarasunshinemt4444

3 ай бұрын

$60K for art school?!?! Dear GOD, I sincerely hope you got a good job to help pay that off, my friend. Back in 1998, I was looking to go to art school (I wanted to illustrate books) but didn't like how much it would cost. Took some community college instead, thought it was bs all the "useless" courses they insisted I take but did NOTHING towards my goal of book illustrator, then bailed. Got married, worked retail, had kids etc Now I'm 45 and I have learned SO MUCH simply from videos and other online, free, sources. And I've seriously branched out. Didn't know that it would be so much fun to refinish furniture, make creative lamps from old ones found at thrift stores, or take old picture frames/art and add to it. I did end up making some children's books that I read to my kids and am keeping for my grandkids (tho those are a few years away yet). If you're still doing art, I'd love to see it tho! 🥰

@llperks

3 ай бұрын

@@sarasunshinemt4444 I was a victim of the early 2000s liberal arts promise lol

How that work out for 2019 "Charlie's Angels."

When the Barbie movie came out, in one of the early trailers said "If you're a Barbie fan, this movie is for you. If you're not a Barbie fan, this movie is still for you!" I didn't watch the movie myself but I respected them for advertising like that. Maybe that's one of the reasons it did so well. I'm just saying..

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

It was only for barbie fans though. There is 0 reason to see that movie unless you like the product.

@sarasunshinemt4444

3 ай бұрын

​@TheSuperappelflap The marketing, while a blatant bait n switch, made the point that if you love the product or dislike it enough to hate-watch it, there was something for you. What they didn't do, was tell people to f-off (which was the only thing it did right). Tho the Oscar fallout cope was HILARIOUS to see them eat themselves lol

Destroy, not create. That's all it is.

@arwenstrong2818

3 ай бұрын

"The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own."

The problem with people who don't like scifi or fantasy is the sheer disrespect they ditch onto those who like, while they claim it's an inferior art. The truth is that they can't suspend their disbelief, they don't have the imagination to do that, thus they are content consuming a regurgitation of their everyday lives. Present them with a slice of life but set in a vastly different culture from Earth, that doesn't look or sound like their american urbanite small bubble they inhabit, and they will react the same way.

Problem is most people just refuse to unsubscribe. Misery is the joy they spread and wallow in.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, when Star Wars part 7 came out, I just saw the marketing and went, welp, Im out, cya. Lots of other people need more time to catch on. I stopped watching Game of Thrones halfway through season 3 when they started deviating from the books and making up their own dialogue. Took other people 5 years to realize they'd been hoodwinked.

I saw the "original" ending of "Little Shop of Horrors", having seen the original in theaters many years ago. It is great special effects work; it also comes across as kind of self-indulgent and mean, at least to me. These people who never had a real shot reach out in hope for something better, and not only do they destroy themselves, but, essentially, the Earth? _While_ trying to do the right thing? What a strange way to think of ending a comedy. You can't please everyone, nor should you try, but if you're going to write for someone other than yourself, you at least need to consider that you _are_ writing for someone else.

@Ramsey276one

3 ай бұрын

Fully agree Reading THAT, it sounds like "even if you have the best intentions, things can go wrong" but it's just what I got from the explanation. Individual results WILL vary.

@onemadkat

3 ай бұрын

Isn’t that just how the play ended, though? The stage production always had a downer ending. I’m not saying it was wrong to change it for the movie, but it’s not as though the original ending was pulled from nowhere

@sterling7

3 ай бұрын

@@onemadkat Yes, I that is my understanding, too. I understand Frank Oz said something about the revision along the lines of "it's very different in a stage play where everyone 'dies' but then comes out at the end and takes a bow." And perhaps that's part of it; I haven't seen the stage production, so I don't know if it's beat-for-beat the same as the movie. The "downer" ending in the director's cut just goes on and on and on... Audrey dying of her wounds from being bitten by the plant, Seymour sadly feeding her to the plant in accord with her last wishes, Seymour finding out the plant's master plan, going back to try to destroy it, getting roundly humiliated, getting _slowly_ eaten by the plant... and THEN that whole, extended, final "and then the plants take over the world" sequence. It's just kind of miserable.

If you presume Malice on the part of others you will oddly enough end up dealing with a lot of malicious people.

@carlthecaveman

3 ай бұрын

A lot of truth there. You should only assume malice when dealing with the government.

The funny thing is. I watch stuff with my sister and girlfriend all the time that "isn't for me" I still enjoyed and respected it.

See, I agree that making concessions to the audience is not very good writing. "If you try to please audiences, uncritically accepting their tastes, it can only mean that you have no respect for them: that you simply want to collect their money", as Tarkovskiy said. But the thing is, that goes for ALL audiences. "Target" audience is also included. Writing specifically for the audience is how you get committee writers making every story boring and shitty, because they just combine things that are popular with no critical thought behind it. It's how you get ideological propaganda masquerading as a story, with everything written only to get through a message approved by the target audience.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

It depends. If you are trying to make a work of art, then you should be critical and not write for the audience. However, if you just want to make a fun movie, that people can go see, have a good time for 90 to 120 minutes, eat some popcorn or a bag of chips, and go home, then you should write something they want to see.

@MamaMOB

3 ай бұрын

So yeah let's just make everything for all audiences. That'll be great. Wait we already have that. That's what Disney is doing. Buying up literally everything and making it family friendly! The audience be damned! Did keeping is very important. Otherwise you get Star Trek where they swear and Star Wars where Luke Skywalker tries to kill his nephew over a dream. Nothing is everything all at once. Expecting everything to be everything to everyone all at once is retarded. Yes you are actually supposed to give your target audience something they want.

@MamaMOB

3 ай бұрын

​​@@TheSuperappelflapI am so sick and tired of these people thinking that I should pay for their art. I don't give a flying fuck about their art. I want to be entertained! When I go to see the Punisher I want to see the Punisher not the writers political opinion. I want to see the Punisher punish people I don't want to see him crying I don't want to see him being sensitive I don't want to see him not hurting people cuz that's wrong. I want the Punisher. I am sick and tired of these creatives thinking they're more important than everyone else! I don't want their story. They haven't proven themselves. They haven't given me one good story why would I want them to take a good story and ruin it?

In my last writing class We passed out stories around to have a rando critic them. But i kept getting the 30+ housewife who only liked soap operas and reality tv.She was a nice lady but sci-fi was soo far out of her wheelhouse she got scared and confused even trying to talk about it? God bless her

Thank you for sharing your experiences in fiction writing courses. During first attempt at college back in the '80s, at a whole 18 years of age, I bluffed my way into an upper division fiction seminar, and found very much the same situation - no one was interested in the sci-fi or fantasy stories I was decent at writing. My slice of life stuff was not well-received in the Big University, of course, because an 18-year-old country kid doesn't have enough life experience to write it believably. 10 years later, when I switched from music to English Composition, my fellow students (all younger than I now) were more open to the fantasy genre, and I got a pile of very valuable feedback. Glad you kept writing - if your fiction is as good as your commentary, I'll bet it's great.

"I'm sorry you didn't like this one. I hope I can get you with the next one! Thank you so much!"

All I know is this: as a puppeteer there are some audiences who won't understand my work as a performer and the best thing I can do is not get involved with them

@darwinxavier3516

3 ай бұрын

Out of curiosity. Did you relate at all to John Cusack in Being John Malkovich?

I guess they have to say something when they're asked about detractors of their work, and "its not for you/them" seems the default w/o sounding like they're begging.

I write for people who enjoy the genres I work in. I refuse to compromise on my standards because I feel I owe loyalty to the genre out of respect for my readers who are going to invest their time (and hopefully money) in my works. HOWEVER - I hope to offer something to the curious newcomer. It would be awesome to be able to contribute to the growth of a passion.

I don't know what is up with creative writing classes but they just don't like sci-fi/fantasy. Heard many people say that classmates and teachers really didn't care for or hated sci-fi. Some teachers being hostile and demanding that they stop or risk failure.

@zionleach3001

3 ай бұрын

Really? Huh, glad I backed out of going to college. Cause that's exactly what I wanted to write. Well, I can watch KZread videos for free.

@Jonas-lj8ul

3 ай бұрын

In my experience, most people who take creative writing classes want to write the next ponderous "great work of lit'ra-CHEWER" rather than just telling a good story. They take themselves FAR too seriously, and would benefit from a few hours of forced exposure to the Three Stooges.

@zionleach3001

3 ай бұрын

@@Jonas-lj8ul So entitled snobby writers? Good thing KZread can show you the Do's and don'ts of writing.

@AuspexAO

3 ай бұрын

@@zionleach3001 That's one person's anecdotal evidence, friend. There is no study or common knowledge stating that creative writing teachers don't enjoy sci-fi/fantasy. The chairman of our uni's English department loved a fantasy tale I wrote in my sophomore year so much, that he insisted on me attending his master's level lecture and even got me special dispensation to take it. Be careful what you ingest off the floor of the internet. Lots of people who lean right will tell you that education is a waste of your time and will corrupt you. The truth is that people do change as they gain knowledge and surrounding yourself with people who want to gain knowledge will ultimately make you a better person. Sitting in a dark room consuming KZread videos is only going to make you more insular, and that's how you end up hating things that are outside of you. Take the risk and get back into school. It doesn't have to be a fancy one. Anti-intellectualism is a poison. If you ever find yourself thinking that you know the best way of doing something without decades of training and experience, you should understand that you are definitely wrong.

@zionleach3001

3 ай бұрын

@@AuspexAO Honestly I was already considering not going cause I'd be $6000 in debt. I've heard stories of other people say how college's don't like or want people to write it.

"This product isn't for you." It is the absolute worst thing you can say while trying to sell a product.

She was mad 😂❤

Barbie wasn't made for "me," yet there I was in the theater with my wife and enjoying the ride with my brain turned off.

@sarasunshinemt4444

3 ай бұрын

You know, that's marriage 101; doing stuff with your spouse that you may not enjoy yourself, but do enjoy cuz you're with your other half. I do the same with my hubby. And sometimes, just turning off your brain for a couple hours is relaxing.

Ages back when I took a creative writing class, we had an assignment to write a short story in a genre opposite to what we normally wrote. Since I wrote horror/dark fantasy, I figured a Beatrix Potter style children's story fit the bill. I settled on the woodland friends getting word their friend from the other side of the mountain was coming to visit and they would celebrate with an ice cream social. One of the bunnies wanted this to be absolutely perfect and becomes a nervous wreck fussing over everything and despite some mishaps, everything turns out happy at the end with lesson learned that perfect isn't everything. First off, that had to've been the hardest thing I've ever written. Class feedback time comes around and most were okay, kinda surprised I pulled it off, one person admitted she kept expecting the bunny to start running around with an axe while wearing someone else's face. Then came the feedback that made me think Death of the Author is a mistake. Classmate went on this long spiel over colonialism and privilege themes she saw in the story. I think there might've been some mention of Victorian era oppression somewhere in there, not sure since I was baffled over where all this came from in a story of woodland creatures planning a party for a visiting friend. My response was along the lines of 'it's forest animals having a party for a friend'. Classmate huffed a bit and I decided to drop the class since I was interested in meat and potatoes feedback to improve, not whatever the hell that was. That said, sometimes telling someone 'it's not for you' is just as bad as saying 'leave'. Another writing group I was in, we were chatting over movies we'd seen lately. I mentioned a horror comedy (i've brainfarted on the title) that I enjoyed and one of the group commented that she couldn't understand why anyone would watch that sort of thing. I said 'it's okay, you're not the audience' since all my horror watching friends enjoyed it. Good Lord you would've thought I insulted her personally, went over to her house and threw poop at it, and stole her dog with how she reacted. Considering she was one who mostly watched socially relevant dramas with rom-coms as a guilty pleasure, she's definitely not the audience for a campy horror comedy so I didn't think I was wrong in saying what I did. Needless to say, she refused to talk to me for the rest of our time in the group.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

Im going to be honest, I also thought you were going to go full Happy Tree Friends with the cute bunny and his friends getting killed in the most gruesome ways imaginable. I am one of those people who also doesnt understand horror. I liked the first Evil Dead movie, but thats the only thing Ive ever watched thats remotely close to horror that I enjoyed. Its campy and it has Bruce Campbell, what more can I ask for? I accept that I am not the audience for horror, so Im not going to go see it, and let people enjoy the 33rd Saw movie, or Final Destination, or whatever, without fussing about why they like it or why I dont like it. There are plenty of other movies I can watch.

@MSinistrari

3 ай бұрын

@@TheSuperappelflap This was a person who had no problem with the Phantom of the Opera musical, but any of the movies including the Lon Chaney Sr one from the 20s she just couldn't sit through because they were too scary. Normally I accept someone's 'didn't like it' or 'not my thing' just at that, but with how she was talking, I had to parse it further since the old silents aren't scary by any stretch today. I'm perfectly fine with movies not being for everyone. Even with my favorite genre of Horror, not all horror films are my thing. There's ample variety for everyone out there to watch.

Seems to work out well for the FromSoftware guys. Then again, they tailor the games to their own exacting standards, do not compromise, set realistic expectations for "likely audience size,” and their fans love them all the more for it. I absolutely understand the fundamental differences in storytelling between books and videogames. It still doesn't change that FromSoft does exactly what you mentioned - agree that their work isn't to your taste if you don't like it and say that it's okay.

Deja Vu, this is a painful deja vu for me, those misery loving bastards that were my classmates and teachers, I hated them and they're cult like obsession with stories without happiness or hope, just characters more miserable than they were, beacause those characters actuallly try to get somewhere in life but failed to find happiness.

@BrightWulph

3 ай бұрын

Oh for real, while I do like a story of struggle from time to time, after a while it just wears you down. Kind of like Anne of Greengables, just nothing but cut punch after gutpunch with very little hope (at least in my memory, its been a while since I read the story) I get that times back then were rough, but they weren't that effing bleak. People can weather dark sugjects and bleakness as long as there's a spark of hope and there's a happy ending at the end.

@darwinxavier3516

3 ай бұрын

@@BrightWulph This was mainly why I stopped watching Walking Dead. It just turned into nothing but pointless misery porn for edgy doomers.

@BrightWulph

3 ай бұрын

@@darwinxavier3516 Yeah, I stopped watching Walking Dead, Criminal Minds, Bones and a few other shows for similar reasons. Just too many dark/bleak story limes. Just drowned the show.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

What really irks me about all the contemporary literature is the massive amount of navel-gazing introspection that these people are giving their self-insert protagonists. If you removed all the inner monologue you would have about 3 pages of text, in which still nothing happens. I love creative sci fi and fantasy books with new ideas that never even occurred to me. First book that pops into my mind is Lockstep by Karl Schroeder. Or anything by Vernor Vinge. Those people have imagination. Are they amazing works of literary prosaic genius? Probably not. But they are FUN and stuff actually happens in those books.

@sarasunshinemt4444

3 ай бұрын

​@@TheSuperappelflap"...massive amounts of naval gazing.." ^This.^ SOOOO MUCH THIS!

Thanks for sharing this man! I’m currently going through a workshop class and the types of stories I’m writing aren’t as popular with everyone. I feel like your wisdom will keep me on the right track!

Being mellow is usually a better option. People instinctively feel attacked by those who show aggression, so you're better off without it. I'm not even advocating for being particularly kind or respectful, just avoiding taking swings with your words.

What I love about this comment is that, from the text alone, I have no idea which side of the fence its coming from. Great analysis as usual JSG!

This quote is nowadays almost entirely pertaining to already existing IPs when someone is brought in and takes them in a new direction There is a HUGE difference between deciding to take something you yourself created in a new or different direction as opposed to taking something someone else created and subsequently made popular and decided you are going to put your own spin on it As a creator you have every rite to decide what audience you wish to appeal to, but as a steward you must weigh the cost of appealing to new audiences vs alienating the ones who made this IP popular enough to continue its existence

What bugs me the most is that these people will berate you for gatekeeping, force their way into the medium, change it into a propaganda platform and then start gatekeeping it. Afterwards if you buy it and don't like it they'll insult you and tell you to fk off but if you DO fk off then they'll insult you for that too. It's frustrating. I agree that you shouldn't compromise your story to cater to the mythical wider audience because that's the easiest way to fk over your own story. That said it's childish to change something with an established fandom only to tell them to go somewhere else when they express their dislike of said changes.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

Its also just bad for business. You take an established IP with millions of fans willing to give you money to make more of it and then turn it into something they dont want. Proceed to lose money, no more of the IP gets made because corporate thinks there is no market for it, and move on to the next IP you can suck the life out of like a swarm of locusts.

I used to think gatekeeping was bad until I saw what Amazon did to Tolkien’s work. Now I see that some stories just aren’t for some people and I see the value in protecting art from those who would deface or destroy it.

I do like it when I am told, is not fore me, saves me time. I whish they stop taking the things that are for me away and making them things not for me. Makes me walk away and never come back.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

It would be nice to have nice things. But you are right, as soon as they start with the "its not for you" stuff in the marketing, I know its gonna be woke and trash.

I really thank you for what you said in this video. I’m a subscriber and watch most of your stuff on marvel and dc and absolutely love it and your channel but I just randomly checked this one out and your words really resonated with me and my personal life. I really needed to hear what you said. This helped me out immensely. Thank you so much Just Some Guy. God bless you and keep doing what you do!

Yeah. Saying ok works well. I was in a writing group that wasn't for school. It was writers guild. Some told me some great advice. It's best to take all criticism (legit ones that are out to help improve your writing) with appreciation. The fact of the matter is, you don’t have to apply their suggestions if you don’t want to. However, if you shut them down for one bad suggestion, they won’t help ever again and you never know...one time they may have something of real value to share. And that was so true. One time someone suggested something for my book and I was like wow. And that was the only thing she ever really suggested that was worth listening to. It made the story better. I still appreciate it.

It is like Disney and Marvel. One of the reasons why Disney bought up Marvel was because they wanted to reach the male clientele as most of Disney's franchises before it had mostly targeted girls. But then they had to change to become more "inclusive". And then the idiots take away the heroes that the fans love to try to attract girls and other groups instead and say things like "This isn't for you! You're not the target audience! If you don't like it, don't watch!" But when these superhero movies and TV shows flops because the new target audience doesn't watch, the idiots still blame men and boys, the old fans. They never blame the newer target audiences the want to watch their crap. Same with Sony Pictures "Ghostbusters 2016", People still try to blame that movie flop on misogynistic men, this despite the fact that actually more men than women went and paid tickets to the theaters to see that crap. These idiotic actors, producers and directors seem to have missed one important thing. We have no damn obligation to watch movies and TV series that we don't feel we have an interest in watching. And if a certain target group is told "this is not for you", then you can't complain if that particular target group doesn't come and pay expensive tickets to the cinemas.

That’s funny. I went to Columbia in Chicago from 13-17 and was really excited to take a Fantasy writing course expecting it to be like one of Brandon Sanderson’s classes where you get to work on your own stories. Turned out it was more of a “history of fantasy” writing course, where you had to learn what the official mythology was regarding mythological creatures, like Mermaids and Fairies and if what you wrote wasn’t within what the teacher considered to be how those creatures actually acted, like if you tried to do something original and took creative license, she would give you criticisms that “mermaids don’t do that” or the Unseelie Court doesn’t act that way.” I just stopped going to that class. In my screenwriting classes I saw the prototypes of contemporary writers rooms there. I remember a girl going up and pitching an animated story about a trans squirrel. The squirrel did this, then this, then this, the end. I asked, “ok. What’s the story though?” “I just told you.” “Ok. But why is this a story about a trans squirrel? Nothing in the story has anything to do with that very specific and deliberate qualifying feature. It’s just a series of events “oh yeah, also they’re trans”. Nothing in the story is necessary to that” and she just fumed. My teacher kept trying to cite good TV writing in the age of Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad but no one but me and like one other kid watched that. Everyone else in the class watched Steven Universe and Rick and Morty. They didn’t have any strong story telling inspirations. But more to the point, the Gatekeeper advocates are saying that people who only like Steven Universe and hate Game of Thrones should not be in charge of making decisions regarding the Game of Thrones universe, nor should their opinions be considered in regard to where that story should go.

Our boy is back! Keep making videos. I wanna see you dig into people again and I'm loving the pace atm.

It's the worst when they "reimagine" an existing IP and tell the fans of that IP that "it's not for you".

I think the key difference is when the fans say it, they mean "It has been this way long before you got your hands on it and we reject your reasons for changing it". Versus when tourists appropriate the thing, when they say it they mean "I'm in control now and you need to comply with my authority you lowly peasants". It really is all about who got there first, and who made it popular enough for someone to even think about appropriating it.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

you made me think of cartman: "respect mah authoritah!" that is what i imagine those people being like, too, theyre just little cartmans who want to fk other people's shit up because we're having fun and they're not.

I deeply relate to the story you told about your university fiction writing classes. Might as well have been me in the story, but in Chicago instead of my city.

The problem for me is when they take something not made for them and turn it into something for them, like taking a superhero story that's been about superheroing for decades and turning it into a slice of life romance story. You wouldn't want to be reading Sense & Sensibility and suddenly have a giant robot pop out to battle a supervillain. I mean...I would but that's why I don't write 1800s romantic period pieces. The "it's not for you" argument fails when it WAS for me but you changed it into something NOT for me. I had a teacher in high school who seemed to hate science fiction and wasn't happy with my interest in it. She wasn't wrong for trying to expand my view. One of the cool things about science fiction is the ability to emulate other genres. However she never chose things that matched my tastes. I saw Planet Of The Apes in the library and tried to get her to let me do that for a book report. She agreed after looking it over, but...let's just say the movie really doesn't match the original novel and I ended up being bored more often than not. Now if I had gotten something that did interest me, having read Treasure Island and To Kill A Mockingbird in the past and enjoyed them both, she might have had a better chance, but her tastes in books were really not mine.

The irony of little shop of horrors is now, most like the original ending, and cite it as the better of the two. Has that sci fi B movie type deal going, but also takes the most likely events, given even in the oriiginal Seymour doesn't wain

I feel you, man. I grew up with an entire family who didn't care for sci-fi or fantasy AT ALL. I didn't even hear about LotR until college and even though I loved Star Wars, my parents had convinced me that it was "for kids". I made peace with myself that I'd just be a young adult writer. I spun a story in college about a young man and a young woman trying to solve a magical mystery with each other (without being able to directly communicate). I wrote it for sixth graders and even apologized at the beginning of class saying that the story would be a little silly because it was for kids starting middle or high school. It turns out the story was a big hit and I ended up having people who bothered me to finish it all the way up until my junior year when I transferred to a new college for a different major. I even, no joke, found my first ever girlfriend because she wanted to pump me for details on the story (that was a poor choice of words, ha ha. More like we had long talks about how sequels would go). My story turned out to be kind of the opposite of yours. I found acceptance where I had never found it before due to having a strong geek presence in my writing class, but up until that time I felt like a fraud for loving fantasy and sci-fi. Either way, you just have to keep writing and writing. JSG, do you have any desire to create your own comics? I hate to lead with the "you're black" thing because that's not what I like about your writing, but we are always saying that we need more good, likeable black heroes. Have you ever thought about being the one to create the next Spiderman? The next Supes? Or if you don't like that kind of pressure, hell make your character a Swiss werewolf, lol, I think he'd be just as interesting. You're really good at navigating the sensible ground between two angry parties so I can imagine you'd write a great story about a hero trapped between two factions that are on a collision course for bloodshed and death.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

To be fair to your parents, Star Wars, at least the original movie, was for kids and young adult men. That was the target audience. At its core its a very by the numbers coming of age story, that just happens to take place in space. Of course it was expanded on in all the later works that more and more were pointed at adults, with some kid friendly stuff like the Ewoks and Jar Jar thrown in. Its a shame you didnt hear about LOTR until college. I first heard about it when the Fellowship movie premiered on tv around 2001 I think, and me being a little kid, was instantly hooked on the story, after watching that movie (and recording it on a video tape) I immediately went to the library and got the second and third book and read them in a couple of days. My mother is a fan of fantasy books as well, so she never scolded me for liking it, and my dad has read some sci fi in his days so he didnt mind me much either. Guess they thought it was a better way to spend my time than just playing video games hehe. Im glad people liked your story, did you ever publish it?

It’s perfectly reasonable for entertainment to have a target audience i.e. to not be made for some audiences. There are genres I enjoy and others I almost never watch. For example, I have never watched a F&F movie. IMO those are just noise. I am aware there are many people who like them and, here’s the key, that’s fine. The same is true for RomComs. Not my thing so I rarely watch them. Again, I’m not offended they exist and see no need for them to be morphed into a genre I prefer. Sadly, many people these days want to have it all their way. Everything has to be exactly what they want it to be. Rampant narcissism pervades every aspect of modern culture. This is especially true in the modern “entertainment” industry.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

The first F&F movie is actually passable entertainment if youve never seen it. The sequel was much worse and they just kept going downhill faster and faster until they were driving down a cliff while jumping over a shark.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

I never watch romcoms either but my girlfriend forced me to watch Ghosted and despite the negative reviews I ended up quite liking it, it had some funny moments and decent action scenes. The cactus bit was good. I have several cacti myself hehe

Honestly, I actually agree with this. Broad appeal makes more money, sure, but creatives get into the field because they’re artists with their own vision and have something they want to say to the world from their own point of view, and having that vision compromised by giving in to the demands of professionally offended slacktivists on twitter feels violating and completely undermines the reason they decided to make their art in the first place. Obviously don’t go out of your way to be abusive, but you also can’t let yourself be bullied and pushed around by a bunch of loud-mouthed karens who demand you put a chick in it and make her gay and lame when they wouldn’t even watch it anyway. Edit: Of course this applies to the artist’s’ original work. If they’re working with someone else’s creative worldbuiding that has it’s own lore and fan base, then of course they have a responsibility to treat the fans and the original artistic vision with respect, unlike Rian Johnson, Rings of Power, The Witcher, and Cowboy Bebop.

There is a difference between trying to broaden your audience and caving to a vocal minority that wants to radically alter your basic premise.

5:53 That is not a negative. Having the people who like to join every community, barely interact with it and constantly talk about how it needs to change for their sensibilities is a disease. Telling them to get lost, and them wanting nothing to do with you, is a plus. In PARTICULAR if the changes they want will destroy the audience that DOES like your stories..

You should enjoy a franchise should never be gatekept but those who caretake it most *definitely* should be; because those who enjoy something enjoy it for what it is.

The problem with the "it's not for you" argument is that it's being used on changes to established franchises that already have a story and expectations.

Creators also need to remember that their behavior towards people that dont like their content will effect people that do. There are a couple of creators whose content I absolutely LOVE but the way that they treat people that dont agree with or like their content is absolutely horrible and for that reason alone I refuse to support their content.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

Examples?

Imagine how different the world would be if the entertainment industry started saying that 15 years ago.

these are the same people who cried that gate keeping was bad and problematic..

If you're writing stories using your own characters in your own universe, you can do whatever you want. But if you're writing stories using characters and a background universe created by someone else, you have an obligation to respect and stay true to that creator's vision. The problem is that people writing comic books or scripts for Star Trek, Star Wars, or Doctor Who often don't fulfill this obligation.

In artistic creation, before doing what you like, you need to know that you good at and what you're not. You have to be aware of your weaknesses and your strengths. And do what you are good at aven if it's not what you like the most. For example, I quickly noticed that I was not really good at building an action scene but quite at creating atmospheres, so I turned more my story towards suspense and horror genre.

Great message. Thank you.

If you don't gate-keep, you end up with something radically different from the thing you fell in love with; something that bears little or no relation to the bones or the spirit of the original creation.

People suck and are huge hypocrites but we gotta keep everyone safe and validated.

I think there has to be a balance. Yes, a writer should absolutely not kowtow to those chasing trends, which allows you to be true to their original vision. But letting people come to the conclusion they don't care for it on their own is far better than telling them they can't or shouldn't partake because "not for you" is asking for bad pr and reception. It is unnecessarily adversarial towards those who might actually like their story if they DID read it, instead of just those they assume won't. Case in point, and I really don't like using this as an example but I can't think of a better one: my little pony. Clearly not written for 25-35 years old guys. And yet that is the number one demographic. If they had said "no this isn't for you!" then that show wouldn't have nearly the success it has enjoyed in it's current iteration. But they also didn't change anything to suit that demographic any more. They continued doing what they were already doing, but also embraced the unexpected.

If I'm writing sword and sorcery fiction for fans of sword and sorcery and I decide to compromise by removing big muscular barbarians in loin cloths and sword chicks in chainmail bikinis and replace them with obese incompetent disabled characters I have failed.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

This

Had a similar experience with writing and beta-reading and an online workshop. It was for SFF but though I got lots of positive reaction to my writing - you know this is true when they don't just say it but want you to fix their prose for them - but very few people liked the stories I was telling. The few who did also found it hard to get their work read by others (especially as they were mostly not as good at the writing aspect so no one was trying to buy an editing session with a critique) and left the website quite quickly. I tried writing stories similar to those they were writing, and scored a few positive reactions, but I didn't have that many stories that fit their mould and when I changed others to fit they didn't make me happy anymore. In the end I just used reading other people's unfinished work to further polish up my writing skills and stopped hanging out there once I felt it was so easy to analyse the flaws in their work that it would be cruel to touch it. It was not for me and however much they thought they wanted my feedback they really really didn't :D

This worked so well for Kelly Sue DeConnick and all of the other Cancel Piggies.

I probably won't get a response but I just have to say JSG described my college days in my creative writing program nearly to a T. All he had to do was substitute slice of life dramas or edge lord for fiction of the mundane and that was my program. the creative writing program at my university at the time actively hated sci fi, fantasy, horror, (unless it was some type of horror of the mundane) and told us students that type of writing was not 'literary' and would not be accepted. I became a better writer despite the limitations I endured at the time. In order to get through I had stories in my back pocket (already finished) or I wrote explicate hetero and gay short stories which oddly netted me A's

Creators should exercise caution in communicating with the audience. It's like radioactivity, even if the first exposure doesn't take you down, the residual effect will last longer than your passion to create. For the art. That's all.

she's seething to this day :D

That is good advice. We keep getting angry that producers try to cater to everyone and ruins a product. This is a good goal and I support it. You either like something or you don't. Not everything is for everyone. We need to stop watering down everything and make things dedicated to certain groups. If others like it then fine. But you shouldn't cater to everyone.

@TheSuperappelflap

3 ай бұрын

They arent trying to cater to everyone though. They are trying to pander to everyone except the largest demographic, straight (white) men.

That initial quote is just as applicable as a retort, to the person who said it. They were supposed to write a comic book superhero stuff and instead they compromised and did not write their book for the comic book audience... negative levels of self awareness.

The ending to Little Shop of horrors didn't change that much outside the SFX. The Meat of the story was still the same and there was some sequel bait in the revised ending . But the idea is if you compromise your work to please the people who aren't your audience you will have a product that won't appeal well to your target audience because they'll be able to see what it could have been, and the greater audience.. well.. have you ever noticed that the wider market almost never materializes in these cases?

I think the problem arises when they expect to have it both ways. As an example, there was that movie Bros, i think, a gay rom-com. Any criticism levelled at it was met with "it's not for you", but then when nobody went to see it, suddenly it was the evil horrible audience's fault.

Another reason I hated college. When I went there, I thought I would be more genre fans like myself....no it was filled with activists, yuppies, leaches and corporate goons. I should have seen everything that was on the horizon.

What a business plan. Make sure you never make 100% of the money.

As a creator, you had no need to compromise your stories in college. However, this does not apply to Hollywood. You didn't have hundreds of millions of dollars of investors' money riding on the response to your stories. Hollywood does. The freedom to say "I won't compromise my creative storytelling" ends at the point where large quantities of money *have* to be made off of your storytelling. At that point, you either need to write stories that appeal to large numbers if people (and your personal creative desires be d@mned, if they aren't popular) or you need to find a new line of work.

I'm an amateur author, I finished one fantasy book, and now writing its sequel. I published it in Royal road platform. I got some great advice from Quora when I asked some questions about writing, and I was told to write for yourself, the story you love, and then show it to other people, some people will like and some people will not, and it's just ok. I hate when adaptations change the characters, story line of the original stories like Lotr, Star wars to fit into some delusional 'modern society'. The every character in a carefully built fantasy world has a role to play, you change the character, appearance, race whatever, it affects the whole story, it can ruin the story.

Anyone who uses that phrase is the same equivalent of, "Don't like it, don't buy it!" Which really shows that they sold whatever argument they had long ago, and they're just mad they're getting pushback. Entitlement at its finest.

Didn't know little shop of horrors had an alternate ending, gotta go find it and watch it. That ending sounds amazing, it wouldnt have had the same over all feeling on the movie, but it does sound fascinating

@1:50 Ragnarok is STILL happening in the middle of Chicago.

Oh, I also went to Columbia College Chicago! I went when sci-fi / fantasy author Phyllis Eisenstein was teaching. She taught pop fiction where we covered all the genres, plus a second class focusing on sci-fi/fantasy. I learned so much from her, and I'm sorry if you didn't get to meet her. But I think the Kelly Sue & Tim Sheridan situation is different, in that they hated their actual target audience; they just didn't know it. Theirs was a failure of imagination and market research; they really think the vast majority of the comic audience thinks like THEY do. They lived in a bubble, and now it's burst.

The comment is fact. If you try to appeal to everyone you end up appealing to none. One should stick to appealing to the target audience/fanbase before thinking of attracting new customers.

Well, that Starship Troopers video just vanished.

Spoken like a professional, and an educated man. Not to be confused with someone who's been paid for his work and attended school.

I believe it's simple, if they are not the target audience, don't acknowledge them. If all a person can say about why they didn't like something is "It's not my cup of tea" they are unlikely to say nothing at all, most will just quietly walk away if it's not to their liking, the rest are just not worth your attention because they won't offer constructive criticism, just demand changes be made to suit them specifically. Mind that, like it happened to JSG in his story, your target audience might not be who you really want to write for, but that's a whole other matter. But closing yourself off like the writer in that interview does is a red flag. It's the kind of mentality that leads to assuming anyone who didn't like your work just didn't like what it was about, which in turn leads to disregarding potentially valid and useful criticism. Or straight up believing that anyone who doesn't like your coded character or story is whatever "-ist" or "-phobe" that applies if you have that big of an ego.

You're so accurate my brother spit those facts theses woke culture doesn't like the truth Brody

6:21: that is when you tell “If you don’t like it write your own damn story!” Yes it’s pissy but, they started and doesn’t make it less true!

No class can teach you how to write. Life teaches best.

JustSomeGuy, who were these people that didn't respond to your writings? Were they teachers, or fellow students?

The problem with superhero comics writers having that attitude in contrast to any other author: they work of a preexisting brand and the only reason they sell at all is brand recognition. But that works only as long as you stay within the expectations of the brand. "I just did my own thing" really only works if you actually created something original.

dude your story from college hit me like a truck exact same thing happened, no body cared and i had to bend for the class i got sad

In your shoes i would have written an extremely long and verbouse story called 'jenuary' about a dude who wake up everyday, has his morning routine, go to work and has basically the same overdescripted day everyday. Apart from sunday where he takes a stroll at the park then cleanigs. 31 chapters from Jen the 1st to Jen the 31st. And ask the other guys if that's enough slice of life for them :D

I like stuff or I don't. That's okay. The biggest issue I have with the 'It's not for you comment' is that it so often comes about because the creator went into an IP and created something that was for a certain group just to make something that wasn't for the original group. I have nothing against original content that I don't enjoy. Plenty of people didn't enjoy the same things I did along the way. Why do some people insist on then turning what I enjoyed into something that I won't enjoy or 'isn't for me'?