Commenting to boost the algorithm, great video :)

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you! Appreciate the feedback and the boost! Stay safe!

@Texasmade74

Жыл бұрын

@@HistorywithCy where do you get the "v" in your pronunciation?All scholars I've listened to say Luwian as it's spelled with no v

Thank you Cy. Maybe one day you'll talk more about the Luwians, and also cover the Carians, Lycians, and Lydians.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

My pleasure and yes, they're all on the list, especially the Lydians!

It's interesting that Luwian would come to be considered a royal language.

Interesting video, But I would like to know more in-depth stuff about this civilization, But of course you don't have to. Keep the great work you do going!

@christopheb9221

4 жыл бұрын

there is a channel called luwian studies it has 2 good videos on it.

@hapzititidemitiwat8325

4 жыл бұрын

@@christopheb9221 I have seen them now, They were very interesting

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Oh would love, it's just a matter of having the time. There are so many topics that I still want to cover. I might revisit the Luwians in future though. For more info, check out the "Sources and Suggested Readings" link in the video description. That might be a good place to start. Thanks again for stopping by, really appreciate it...stay safe!

@hapzititidemitiwat8325

4 жыл бұрын

Ancient history is indeed very large topic. Ill be sure to check those sources out. Always hungry for more Information about the fascinating peoples of ancient times

I love your videos Cy!! Your channel is underrated. All the topics you present to your audience is super interesting. I appreciate your work enormously. Thank you homie

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

No, thank you for stopping by, really appreciate it and glad you enjoyed the videos. There's more to come so stay tuned and safe!

Awesome job as always Cy

Allways wanted to know a bit more about the Luwians, Thanks Cy!

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

My pleasure, thank you!

Another great topic Cy! ❤👌

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks, appreciate the support you keep giving but watching these, means a lot! Stay safe my friend!

Fascinating! Thanks, Cy.

@HistorywithCy

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, glad you liked this short little video and hope you learned something from it... more to come, stay safe!

Nice video! I would love it if you did a video in Piyama-Radu and his association with King Priam of Troy.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Great topic, will look into it.. .thanks!

Thanks again, Cy. I've known about the Luwians for quite a while. I do wonder, though, do we call them 'LuVian' purely because the archaeologists who coined the term are largely of Germanic stock, and that's just how the W sounds when they speak, so we all follow suit, or is the actual pronunciation of their scripts spoken with the V sound to represent a W?

@1293ST

4 жыл бұрын

Eh, my dude, I don't know where you get that from, but in German it's Luwian. Either you switched your argument around, though indeed the V can either be a W or F sound, or it's a non-issue. In German generally, if there is no historical reason to use a V as in Vater (Father) you'd just use the letters W or F instead of V. In terms of ancient language, I can tell you--though as a layman in the field--that the Luwians had no V sound in the first place and that a V couldn't be represented in their logographic script as far as I am aware, though a W could and that is why we're using it. Of course the people we refer to as Luwians didn't call themselves Luwians, as that is an English exonym. The Luwians themselves as Neo-Hittite states would have probably referred to themselves as Hatti, or something similar, as Luwian wasn't really a group but more a grouping put upon them by modern archaeologists and historians.

@onbedoeldekut1515

4 жыл бұрын

@@1293ST Years ago, when I first learned of all things Luwian, via the Centre for Luwian Studies, all the way up till today, they have been 'fronted' by people of Germanic descent, because of the universities they're attached to. They pronounce it with a 'V', yet write it with a 'W'. I never once even insinuated that they call it anything other than Luwian. Do you like trying to make a kerfuffle when no reason has been given? Is that a hobby of yours?

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Hi. I just pronounced it that way in the videos because in most cases, that's how I've heard it to be pronounced. Hmmm, I wonder how Trevor Bryce, who's an Australian, pronounces the word....

Great quick over view!

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks man, glad you enjoyed! More to come, stay safe!

Excellent videos, I do enjoy your work.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much, happy to hear that... more to come, stay safe!

Whoa. Got a phone notification about a history video. Imagine that. Currently reading about the Indus Valley civilization, but these videos always are such nice entertaining break.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Indus Valley, Luwians, goal is to cover them all! Thanks so much for stopping by, really appreciate it. Stay safe!

This was cool again, thank you!

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you, appreciate the kind words...stay safe!

What interested me most is in a possible connection to Troy. Perhaps a more detailed linguistic analysis of the luwian language can help determine who these people where better. (Example: does the language have any similarities with mycenean linear b?) According to Homer, the trojans and their other anatolian allies, spoke greek and shared the same or similar religious system as the mycenean greeks. But i wonder what the artifacts, archeology, and linguistics, can tell us.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah those are all really good questions. You might be interested in checking out the site Luwian Studies, they try tackle some of these issues there. I myself though need to read up more on it before I can offer an opinion. Thanks again for stopping by, really appreciate it. Stay safe!

Liking the music in the background Cy !

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

It may not be rock 'n' roll but I like it! Thanks again for stopping by, really appreciate it!

@mufalonami2282

3 жыл бұрын

What's the name?

Good stuff

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

My passion for the trojan war brought me here. I'm thinking of writing a book on the Trojans and I'm considering mentioning luwian or Hittite.

Thanks for the video. I was looking at one of your excellent maps showing which areas were inhabited and that made me wonder what sort of population density it had. I'm wondering if our modern minds, (with large dens cities) may be inclined to imagine a higher density that there actually was.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

My pleasure, thank you for stopping by! Yeah that would be an interesting aspect to look into...I haven't actually come across studies specifically on population density so I'm sorry, I can't answer your question, but if I find something on it, I'll let you know. Thanks again and stay safe!

I enjoyed the video.

Always wanted to know about these people!

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Nice, hope that this helped and that you learned something new. Thanks so much for stopping by, I really appreciate it...stay safe!

I wonder how trade would have worked in this time. Great video by the way!

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks, appreciate it! Good question... from what I understand, mostly through donkey caravans and shipping for those areas along the coast, paying duties when they crossed into a new kingdom. Some of these kingdoms had good local road networks which probably helped, though from my understanding, I don't think these trade routes were as developed let alone as popular as those that crossed through the Levant. Just my thoughts. Thanks again, stay safe!

Definitely wish for more information about them.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks, me too. There are a couple of books that might interest you on the subject. One is The Luwians by Melchert. Another is Luwian Civilization by Zangger which I haven't read yet but many have recommended. He and his organization Luwian Studies have put out a lot of material online that you can also check out. Thanks for stopping by, really appreciate it...stay safe!

Thank you for making me aware of this Civilization much respect.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you for stopping by and taking interest in such things, much appreciate and more to come! Stay safe!

@teyanuputorti7927

4 жыл бұрын

History with Cy you to mate

Good video, altho I wish you could have included the later history of the Luwians and explained how, thanks to the Persians, then Hellenistic Kings, and finally the Romans, Luwian disappeared as a dominant language in the region and became extinct

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Hi, thanks for stopping by. Yeah I tend to agree with @Basil II of Macedon in that Luwian language had ceased to be used before the Medes/Persians arrived in the 7th and 6th centuries BC. It slowly got replaced with Aramaic as that became the dominant language in the Assyrian dominated parts of the Levant and Anatolia and in other areas was gradually phased out or merged into other languages of newcomers in western Anatolia. That is my understanding. Thanks to both of you for stopping by, really appreciate it... stay safe!

@TALessman

4 жыл бұрын

@@HistorywithCy forgive me, it was passed my bedtime when I made my comment lol. The Lycians (on the southern coast of Anatolia) and their language are considered to be Iron Age descendents of the Luwians, and they continued to dominate southern Anatolia until the Achaemenid conquest decimated their population around 546 BC, after which an influx of Persian speakers led to the decline of the Lycian people and language. There were still some Lycian speakers in the area when Alexander conquered the area in the 330's BC and the region became Hellenized soon after. I'm admittedly guessing that there were still some Lycian speakers in the region up until the Roman conquest

Very cool

@HistorywithCy

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Thank you

@HistorywithCy

Жыл бұрын

You're welcome, thanks for watching!

I'm always amazed how many early civilizations there were and how far back everything goes, has there been an attempt to show an animated graph about the global spread of early civilization over the time that gave a pattern on the scale of human migration from ancient times.

@Gorboduc

2 жыл бұрын

Check out Ollie Bye's channel, he's the GOAT of animated maps.

I'm so happy you did a video on the Luwians! really wish we had more information on them :(

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks, me too. One good book in my opinion is The Luwians by Melchert. Another is Luwian Civilization by Zangger which I haven't read yet but many people like his stuff. He and his organization Luwian Studies have put out a lot of material online. Hope this helps, stay safe!

Perhaps Luwian script remained in use so long because most Of the scribes used it. A hieroglyphic script is based on words, not sounds, so would be readable by all who knew it, like Chinese ideograms

Cy, thank you for another interesting video! I'm embarrassed to admit, I don't remember hearing about these people. I'm really glad you did the video. It'll give me something to study more about! Things in Washington have calmed down in the streets, but people are still dying from Covid.... There sure is a race amongst the countries, for a vaccine (China's even in the race)! Smh. Hey you! Take care! Thank you again for bringing something fascinating into my mind! It was a nice break! Cheers mate! 👋

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you, glad to know things are better in the Pacific Northwest. I'm in southern California and yesterday or the day before we beat New York's record for most cases... not something to be proud of but thankfully in my specific area we're doing better. Stay safe my friend and thanks for the feedback, really appreciate it!

Wonderful

@HistorywithCy

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, glad you enjoyed this!

@michaelwoodsmccausland5633

Жыл бұрын

@@HistorywithCy History is I/ We Our Lives. Building the Future from the Past in the President requires accurate history. Which requires an enormous amount of work. Locating primary and secondary sources. While putting in the leg work to confirm the path one is following is accurate. Thank you Sincerely For doing the work. MWM

thanks

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

You're welcome, glad you liked it...stay safe!

I luv luwians

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah interesting people... probably the largest ethnic-linguistic group in Anatolia during the Bronze Age and we hear little about them. Thanks for stopping by, stay safe!

The predominance of Luwian in the northern Levant after the bronze age collapse might be explained by a migration or invasion into the area by Luwian speakers in the period of the collapse. On another point, only two scraps of bronze age writing have been found at Troy, and both are Luwian. That fact ought to make people less squeamish about the proposition that the Trojans probably spoke Luwian. Indeed it seems like that point should by this time be uncontroversial.

Please make a video about Serpent's Wall. So few people know about it. there are three theories as to what peoples built the walls: either the Sarmatians against the Scythians, or the Goths of Oium against the Huns

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Hmm, interesting topic, I'll take a look into it. Thanks for the suggestion, stay safe!

Any info on thee Heturian?

I thought I knew everything about ancient peoples, but here is another group I knew nothing about. Thanks Cy.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

No worries, I've been doing this for a while and also keep coming across new ancient peoples all the time! So much more to learn and discover. Thanks again for stopping by, really appreciate it. Stay safe!

@JoseLopez-ox6en

4 жыл бұрын

@@HistorywithCy Know what you mean. I've been into ancient & world history since I was a kid and I'm now 66. Have you looked in the eastern and north central Siberian states? Just recently found out about them. One is Siber, from whence Siberia.

Would be awesome to find out if luwians formed a cohesive government in that region

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Hi, thanks so much for stopping by, appreciate it! I think for the most part they were small and relatively independent kingdoms, but often times many of them would come together into some form of federation for the sake of their security. For example, this definitely occurred in what Hittite texts called "the land of the Arzawa." Later Hittite texts refer to Arzawa and its king, so perhaps by they were more of a unified or at least a more cohesive political body towards the end of the Bronze Age. Thanks for stopping by, really appreciate it...stay safe!

Yes!! There is a whole Lukan temple in the British Museum

@blueeyes6852

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks! I didn't know!

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

That's so awesome, I'll have to check it out. Haven't been to the BM in years but every time I went my time was limited so would always spend it in the Near Eastern section, specifically Assyria/Babylonia and ancient Persia. I definitely need to branch out on my next trip after the lockdown is over. Thanks again for stopping by, appreciate it. Stay safe!

At first DR. Seuss created Cindy Who Lu. She lived down in Luville with the Luwians. He later switched that around and the rest is history.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Lol love it... thanks for stopping by, really appreciate it...stay safe!

❤

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Off topic. But hey if you want more subs you should make some longer videos (40 minute plus) for us who like to watch these and fall asleep to. Just my opinion, good luck anyway, I like your narration

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Hi, thanks so much for stopping by and really appreciate the feedback, helps me to make these things better. Yeah, I agree... I have a few longer videos and I've started doing some podcasts which are on average about 20 minutes and I've seen they do better than really short videos. This was just a quick vid that I hadn't planned to make, but I had several people were asking about who there were (I had mentioned the name in a couple of videos) and so I put this out. Thanks again for stopping by, really appreciate it...stay safe!

Didn't the same type of linguistic phenomenon happen with Aramaic and later with Greek and Latin -i.e. the language continues as a lingua franca or religious language even after the empires that originally spoke it ceased to exist?

So were they the Yammia or proto Yammia?

@ezrafriesner8370

3 ай бұрын

I assume you mean Yamnaya? In which case no, this is long after that.

I refuse to comment just to boost the algorithm. Even though I enjoy your informative and enjoyable content. so there........ oh, wait.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Duh! Thanks so much for the comment... helps out a lot and I appreciate it...stay safe!

I really wonder if there is any relation with the luwians and today's alawites who are mostly settled in Syria and anatolia. Although they somehow integrated into the muslim societies, they have very different kinds of belief system and rituals which seems quite old. Unfortunately, I couldn't find enlightening academic articles about the history of these groups.

@HistorywithCy

3 жыл бұрын

Hmm, that's interesting, I honestly don't know. My guess would be no since there were many other peoples who occupied that region between Luwians and Alawites, but honestly I know very little about Alawite beliefs other than that they have some similarities or is more related to Shia Islam. Interesting topic though. Thanks so much for stopping by, really appreciate it. More to come, stay safe!

@ezrafriesner8370

3 ай бұрын

It’s unlikely that this is the case, the name of the alawites is ultimately from their founder Ibn Nusayr al-Numayri, not the indo-European root of the word Luwian. It’s more likely they simply preserve some differing Arab customs from the time of the Muslim invasions, before modern Islamic orthodoxies emerged with things like a total ban on alcohol.

If the trojans were luwians then so were the romans. Whoa greatness !!

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, that would be true... just have to prove beyond a doubt that the Luwians were indeed trojans! Thanks for stopping by, really appreciate it... stay safe!

@ezrafriesner8370

3 ай бұрын

If you believe legends instead of archaeology 😂

Luwians? Thank you for enlightening my ignorance...

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Glad you liked the video and thanks so much for stopping by, really appreciate it! More to come, stay safe!

I was 🎶 listening! Why were the people killing their neighbors? Were these people humans?

Called domlies or dimlies or domlies

lets see what we inherited from the Luwians you did not mention: King Midas was a Luwian or a descendant. Lydians (the inventors of money/coins) were Luwian descendants. Possibly the Etruscans (who taught the Romans much) were descendants of Luwians whose leaders left Anatolia and took over a tribe in Italy. And of course the Romans themselves claimed their origin from the Trojans leaders, who were possibly Luwian.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Hi. As I said in the video, it was a short program to let people know who the Luwians were, not their whole history, which is still a very understudied topic. I understand the points that you're making but please remember, a lot of that is speculation and not agreed upon by all scholars - there are many in the field who have differing hypotheses and opinions. That being said, some of the things that you're written I believe are being studied by the organization Luwian Studies and in Zangger's book (which I still have to read). Thanks for the comment and stopping by, appreciate it. Stay safe!

@tommy-er6hh

4 жыл бұрын

@@HistorywithCy Sorry if my post came across like criticism, that was not intended. You do a fine job for the time you have. Thank you.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

No worries my friend, constructive criticism is great and I'm happy that you shared and mentioned all of those things, for they are definitely topics of interest and discussion among scholars in the field. I also don't have that extensive knowledge on the subject to do a really long video on the Luwians...at least not with the sources I currently have. That being said, you bring up topics that would be good to research and discuss perhaps in another video. Thanks for your comments, I really appreciate them and look forward hearing your thoughts on other topics in the future. Stay safe!

@KingOIdiots

3 жыл бұрын

I don't mean to be a contrarian, but to my knowledge this isn't correct. To my understanding, the historical consensus is King Midas was ruler of Phrygia, the Phrygians being a separate people from the Luwians. This was recorded by both the Greeks and Assyrians to be the case, both of which recognized the Phrygians and the Luwians as separate peoples. There is evidence to support the idea that the Phrygians were influenced partially by the Hitties and Luwians, but they still remain distinct. Scholars argue more for the Phrygians being related to the Greeks or Armenians than they do the Luwians, as from what examples we have their language seems more alike theirs. This is a distant relation, mind you, and more of a sibling relationship than a descendant. The Phrygians are also a later migrant people to Anatolia, while the proto-Anatolian peoples who developed into the separate Hittie, Luwic, Palaic, and Lydian branches arrived there far earlier. Similarly, the Lydians and the Luwians are likely related peoples, but not descendants of one another - both of their languages are of Anatolian stock, being a very early branch of Indo-European that includes Hittite. All three share similar phonology, grammar, and word structure, but they are each separate languages. Though the Hittite empire did write in Luwian for some of their history, Luwian served more as a local language, while Hittite was the language of the administration and priesthood. The Luwian language survived longer than Hittite did, as the Hittite empire fell while the Luwian-speaking populations survived to replace it. Without its empire necessitating its official use, Hittite fell out of fashion in favor for the more commonly used Luwian. There is no evidence, no my knowledge, that Etruscans were descendants of Luwians, especially in their language, as both Etruscan and Luwian are distinct from one another. Though there's been some theories floating around connecting them to other peoples, nothing can be shown to be conclusive and most, to my amateur opinion at least, are large stretches of the imagination without any real evidence to support them. It is more likely that the Etruscans were a simply pre-Indo-European people, in much the same way as the original Basque speakers were, who were displaced by migrating Indo-Europeans. Not all Romans claimed Trojan ancestry, though the Luwians are the most likely candidate for the true Trojans; but in much the same way as some kings and kingdoms claimed ancestry from Charlemagne, Odin, Zeus, or whoever, humans have always sought to embellish their origins for the sake of prestige - and in the case of rulership and power, for legitimacy. If a king or kingdom can convince people that they are special because of a famous ancestor or divine lineage, regardless if its true or not, they will gain more respect and power over their subjects. There are many historical accounts of these sorts of claims. Because of this, without evidence we have no reason to believe if the Romans came from Luwian speaking Trojans - especially since their languages are so different. Luwian and Latin are not closely related and entirely different, albeit both in the Indo-European language family. Their branches are far away from one another in that language tree.

@HistorywithCy

3 жыл бұрын

@@KingOIdiots oh you're going to like the next video on Phrygia...I talk about king Midas in it. Personally, I believe that the Phrygians (identified as the the Mushki in Assyrian texts) were from southeastern Europe, which also seems apparent from their language. I'm sure though that they mixed with the local population to create their own distinct culture. Anyway, I hope to have this episode out during the week...stay tuned and thanks for stopping by!

The Luwians were also known as Phrygians.

@bugracollu6691

9 ай бұрын

No

@ezrafriesner8370

3 ай бұрын

Nope, two separate peoples with separate languages

"most scholars believe that they migrated into the region from somewhere northern of black sea" uhhh, what are your sources, which scholars are those who claim that and what evidence do they have to support their claim, archaeological, linguistic, genetic, etc., or? I find it very implausible to believe all those claims, if you don't have hard evidence then it sounds as good as saying "X people might have migrated from Mars", yeah it's ridiculous.

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Trevor Bryce. Check the link under "Sources and Suggested Reading" in video description for where the info is coming from. Thanks!

@michaelwoodsmccausland5633

Жыл бұрын

We have been migrating back and forth in between adapting to the Biosphere! Does the term “indigenous” really apply? Yes the Earth holds all the clues VC as does our ancestral DNA and Linguistics. shine Bright! MWM

A Celtic tribe by chance!?

@ezrafriesner8370

3 ай бұрын

Nope. Their language is markedly of the Anatolian branch of the indo-European languages, which is greatly separated from the Celtic branch. What we call “Celtic” might not have even been a truly identifiable ethnic signifier at that time.

I'm waiting for a video on Jesus of Nazareth.

@michaelwoodsmccausland5633

Жыл бұрын

Ralph Ellis has incredibly data upon the Nazarene Jew!

First

@HistorywithCy

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, you are!

@blueeyes6852

4 жыл бұрын

@@HistorywithCy You're a real sweetheart!

Luwians are a civilization of light. They are one of the ancient peoples of Anatolia, but the Westerners try to make the Luwians an Indian European race. Maybe they are Indian Europeans, but the oldest peoples of Anatolia are not Indo Europeans. Turks and other nations lived from the earliest periods of history

@CostantinoVercetti

3 жыл бұрын

lmao what

@Gaxmud

2 жыл бұрын

Wrong Brother

@KaanSoloTraveler

2 жыл бұрын

@@Gaxmud are you Turkish ı think you are not because you are follower Western europe historians like a bird only what they said you accepted .

@Gaxmud

2 жыл бұрын

@@KaanSoloTraveler In your Dream

@KaanSoloTraveler

2 жыл бұрын

@@Gaxmud sen ne diyon birader senin fikrini duyalım çok biliyorsun belli

Luwians was protoslavic!

@esramnor6734

3 жыл бұрын

No they are Anatolian Indo-European people

@ezrafriesner8370

3 ай бұрын

Nope, they spoke an Anatolian language, which has marked differences to proto Slavic

Luwians or sound\Lovi\ too are Kurdish now!!! Those employers as Hittites Sobarto Gouti Babylon Media Hurries Amazons and more all of theme kurdish people now!! They dont mantion kurdish name because political UN case..

@User-gi2fd

3 ай бұрын

Luwians have nothing to do with kurds

@ezrafriesner8370

3 ай бұрын

@@User-gi2fdthere’s a chance of some distant relation, but aye, it’s much more likely that Kurds are descended from a different wave of indo-European migration

@ForceOfUru

2 ай бұрын

​@@ezrafriesner8370Zagrosians, pre-Ayran "Iran"

Natives of Anatolia =Modern day Türkish People

@Melike.76

3 жыл бұрын

Nah turks aren’t native to anatolia were central asian

@reefjosey1947

3 жыл бұрын

@@Melike.76 Turks looks like Turks, faces are different, not look like central asian. that proves everything. there is a strong link with those people. but of course they also mixed with central asia. also luwians were in a big struggle with hellenic people. (just like today between turks and greeks) these are missing links and tells us big secrets of these soils.. Turkey is the only place in the world you can go to see what the faces of the Luwians look like.

@Melike.76

3 жыл бұрын

@@reefjosey1947 we didn’t mix with central asia we ARE from there turkmen tribes migrated to anatolia

@Melike.76

2 жыл бұрын

@Ali Kılıç No

@Melike.76

2 жыл бұрын

@Ali Kılıç no