Troy Fowler, aka The Ranch Fairy has a whole lot of information on high FOC setups.

I don’t have enough experience as an archer to be invested in FOC trends (I'm at the happy if I hit a target stage), but I am a senior scientist and engineer. Basic physics tell us that the centre of mass is the centre of momentum. Flight design physics is far too complex, even in un-powered objects, to give a pat throw away solution, but extensive modelling since WWII shows a centre of mass 20 to 30% FOC will be acceptable for a rear guided unpowered object. This doesn’t address the spine and overall weight issues you bring up of course. English war arrows from the Mary Rose and other archaeological finds appear to have an approx 20% FOC design. The KE vs momentum argument is not as complex as people think. These terms are related, as you know, but an arrow does not kill by transferring KE to the target, like a bullet. It kills by cutting through the target, like a knife (well, except for fowling blunt). Momentum is the measure equating to how much resistance it takes to slow an object, and momentum is the appropriate analogue for arrow effectiveness at target. The optimal arrow weight then becomes the complex chosen compromise between speed, trajectory and momentum at target for a given bow power and efficiency.

@InsideOutPrecision

5 жыл бұрын

Your right, momentum is far more important than kinetic energy!

@erickzulich1878

4 жыл бұрын

Check out Dr. Ashby's research.

@-lovefromnh

4 жыл бұрын

@@erickzulich1878 yes, exactly! There is your science you said you have not seen. Large animals taken by high f.o.c.

@michaelbowen3165

3 жыл бұрын

U no what I think .everyone is overthinking each to his own

@colinbussiere-nichols8524

3 жыл бұрын

Love it!

Study Dr Ed Ashby the definitive expert on FOC.

@garyk76

4 жыл бұрын

BennyCFD some of his theories has been proven wrong though

@tomkarrow8208

4 жыл бұрын

​@@garyk76 No, they have not been. FOC, as stated by ashby, "In fresh and living tissues, all EFOC (Extreme FOC) and Ultra-EFOC tests show very, very high penetration gain over arrows having normal FOC (12% and less) and high FOC (from 12% up through 18%). For EFOC arrows that have incorporated most of the other penetration-enhancing features (See below), this has been quantified. Penetration gains range from approximately 40% to upwards of 60%". Having said that, Ashby stated high FOC is the 3rd most important factor in determining effective arrow penetration behind, 1. Arrow structural integrity (Spine) and 2. Arrow Flight. These are in turn followed by, 3. FOC, 4. Mechanical Advantage, 5. Shaft Diameter, 6. Arrow Mass, 7. Blade Edge Finish, 8. Shaft Profile, 9. Broadhead/arrow silhouette, 10. Type of edge bevel, 11. Tip Design, and 12. The Arrow-Mass above the heavy bone threshold.

@kduffin33

3 жыл бұрын

Those studies are pretty outdated and we’re doing mostly in the 80s where they didn’t have anywhere near the compound bows they do now in fact a lot of the studies were done using Tradd bow technology. Not to mention they were trying to get approved to hunt in Africa where many of the big game animals are much bigger than anywhere else in the world, also because they were using older tech many of the arrows or simply heavier because of the material to use and since the bows for going much slower they needed a higher FOC to get through a bigger animal.

FOC a very sensitive topic. I researched it heavily looking for my next elk arrow. I couldn't find a true answer to it all so decided compromise somewhere in the middle. 470gr arrow 19% FOC. Shoots broadheads really well as far as 70 yards.

@Fred-eg9sx

3 жыл бұрын

Hey, just wondering what arrows you running? Must be a pretty low GPI?

We agree with being in the 11%-15% range on your FOC. What some may not realize, who simply watch videos or read an internet forum or a social media page, is Dr. Ashby wrote of and about high FOC arrow builds with massive overall arrow weight, and its usefulness in hunting African game. Thick skinned, heavy boned animals, with a traditional archery setup. So it is more important to those builds trying to overcome the archers paradox and regain the stabilization of the arrow itself. But, with modern compound bows, and the tuning we can do them as compared to a traditional setup ( try bare shaft tuning a longbow through paper at 6') the amount of FOC becomes less critical. Great video!!

@zeroedinwithzeke4059

3 жыл бұрын

Actually he tested on everything from turkeys to buffalo with 300 to 1200+ grains. He knows everything on the subject.

Learning day by day with your help 🙌🏻

Thanks for explaining FOC that helps a lot!

I just made up some axis 300 5mm.. put ethics outsert on them. I'm around 520 grains man they are some of the best flying arrows. I tried them at 545 grains and they was just as great.. split my arrows tight groups. I put blazer heat vanes on them. They are awesome

@joelgreen4166

4 жыл бұрын

Your right where I want to be with my arrow weight. What is your draw weight and arrow length??

Very good video Will help me out alot when I go to build my arrows Thanks

@magnumarrowarchery155

4 жыл бұрын

Ranch fairy on KZread

From what I've seen the easton bloodlines don't seem to very durable. The gold tip velocities on the other hand are pretty tough and I'd recommend them.

Thanks. This helps a foc of a lot.

I couldn’t agree more. I’m not sure why everyone is so enthralled with hiFOC/heavy arrows. If the entire point of having high FOC and heavy arrows is to penetrate more but 450-500 Grain arrows can blast through pretty much anything in North America now you’re just adding weight for no reason and at the same time sacrificing trajectory. I get it if you are a tree stand Hunter shooting at pigs a.k.a. Ranch ferry and want to make sure that no matter what you blast through the hog without an issue but hunting for Whitetail elk or any other animal where spot in stock is common it makes no sense to give up trajectory for the very small percentage chance that you will not be able to get through that animal with an arrow weighing close to 500 grains. In those spot and stalk situations or calling an Elk for example there are many times where you have to judge distance and don’t have time to range or after you rain the animal moves before you shoot the arrow and you must compensate guessing the yardage. This happens a lot and at a much higher percentage compared to the small percentage of not being able to get through an animal with a 450 to 500 grain arrow.

@greatwhitenorth762

2 жыл бұрын

Good points. Imo, even if you don't get a complete pass thru with the entire arrow, it's very likely the broad head is certainly going to exit the other side of the deer or elk. This means you've double lunged (assuming that's where you aimed, which is true for most hunters, bow or rifle) your prey and thus it's a lethal shot. The animal is going to die. And very soon. So imo complete pass throughs are perhaps over-hyped. Just my opinion.

Having a short DL 26.5, I swapped from a normal foc. ( 10-12 % ), 420 gr arrow, I now run a 550 gr (22% foc ) and blow through shoulder blades no issues. I don't think KE means anything , it's momentum. And in all fairness, guys that play with high foc, also know how to play with a spine, and tend to bareshaft, use the shoot and cut method, bareshaft through paper and at distance.. My 22 % foc arrow bareshafts out to 50 yards..

@magnumarrowarchery155

4 жыл бұрын

Amen

@interestedmeow

4 жыл бұрын

I’m the same. For short draw length shooters, higher FOC helps us get around the fact that we are limited in the amount of velocity we can put into an arrow. Light, stiff arrows with massive point weights give us the perfect mix of momentum (penetration) and flight characteristics. You also need smaller vanes as the lever arm gets longer the higher your FOC is.

@greatwhitenorth762

2 жыл бұрын

That's an impressive bare shaft distance! Sounds like you've got it well figured out and have a good arrow set-up. Just wanna say tho, that KE and momentum are inextricably related, as 'Daemon' alluded to in his comment above. Momentum = mass x velocity. KE = 1/2 x m x v^2. So we see that an increase in either mass or velocity gives an increase in both momentum and KE, but just not to the same degree due to the difference in the equations. It's not a perfect analogy, but momentum vs. KE is a bit like the difference b/w torque and h.p. produced by a gas (or diesel) engine. Torque is what pulls that heavy load up that steep hill, in the same way momentum is what carries the arrow thru the shoulder blade and keeps on going. But that heavy arrow with all that momentum, also has a lot of KE.

Thanks for all the great content! Any chance you might be able to put together a video tying in the use of tapered outserts? Do they really effect depth of penetration? Is this FOC and kinetic energy changes or reducing friction along the length of the shaft?

balanced arrow stops at 15%, i like 15%-20%, i think my Gold Tip 300’s are getting a 16%-18% FOC. as far as velocity, i like to stick with a minimum Chrono speed of 200fps. my 538gr Gold Tip 300’s are at 218 or 219 feet a second. that works for me. i don’t think the deer are gonna like them too much in October.

FINALLY!!!!! Someone who actually tells people accurate information on arrow weight/KE. I've argued with people for YEARS about weight vs speed. I've seen guys shooting over 500 gr arrows and and think they have the best setup... I try to tell them exactly what you said there is sweet spot for each bows IBO. You NEED speed to create both KE and Momentum so if you are too heavy it falls off and you wont get the penetration you're after. I shoot a 410 Gr arrow with a 26.5" draw, 70 lbs, havent found a target I wont blow through and have passed through everything I've shot.

@robwalters9695

5 жыл бұрын

@@georgemichael86 it's not per draw weight its per bow. Use the calculator he talks about and start plugging in arrow weights to determine where KE starts to drop off. There are more factors that go into it than simply grains per lb of draw. It's your draw length, the poundage you shoot, the bows IBO rating etc

@robwalters9695

5 жыл бұрын

At my short draw length its right in the sweet spot, Ive tested heavier arrows with my setup at 60 yards and my 410 gr arrow out penetrates a 450 gr arrow as well as a 500 gr arrow.... with my draw that heavy of an arrow is just too slow. 100% completely UNTRUE with the increasing statement, archery equipment is not magically immune to the laws of physics and ballistics. There is a point where it is too heavy to create the speed needed, take a look at the mathematical formulas. (KE) of an object. KE = 0.5 • m • v 2 where m = mass of object. v = speed of object, Momentum = mass • velocity... notice both formulas use Velocity/Speed meaning without adequate speed you cant create desired KE or Momentum.

@robwalters9695

5 жыл бұрын

@@georgemichael86 actually based on a 1000 gr arrow out of my 70 lb bow with a 26.5" draw, fps would be 84.66, momentum- .37562555, ke- 15.9013566 I actually plug the numbers for my setups and go based on the math, not some old school way of thinking about heaviest is best. There is a point where ke is at its peak and momentum is .5 or higher. While momentum trends slight up, 650 gr arrow for example is .58059649 at 201.33 fps ke is substantially lower than acceptable at 58.4466170... again based on my bow and my draw

I have been shooting a bow for a long, long time but I have learned a lot from watching your videos . You are one of the best commentators out there. I really disagree on how F.O.C. is calculated. The manner in which F.O.C. is calculated varies from expert to expert. Some use the whole nock length while most measure from the throat of the nock. On the business end (point), the measurement stops at the end of the shaft without the insert or point. That is where I feel it goes wrong. Now, if I want to know what my shaft F.O.C. is then I remove everything but that’s a useless measurement because you can’t shoot that shaft without the all the other components (except fletching for bare shaft tuning). If we are going to call this “arrow F.O.C.” then let’s actually use the whole arrow. We don’t leave the top of the nock, the insert or the point in our pocket when we shoot the arrow and they are a critical factor in the way that they affect F.O.C. We also don’t subtract for the fletching as we do the insert. . An F.O.C. of 12-16 would in reality be somewhere between, let’s say 19 - 27 or better depending in the weight of the insert & point. Even the length of the point affects where it balances. A 100 grain field point is much shorter than the same weight broad head so the balance point changes. Remember as a kid when you moved forward or back on the seat of a see saw how it effected balance point. Same weight, different position. Whatever the individual archer finds is his or her best F.O.C. in their arrow, then let’s all call it what it really is. Those 12-16 numbers are going to really jump and they should because the front of center of an arrow is “of the arrow”. I feel that it’s the “FORMULA” that is incorrect. The calculation table should include the whole arrow measurement from tip to tip. Thanks in advance.

@vinceochello1779

3 жыл бұрын

I agree 👍🏼

@colinbussiere-nichols8524

3 жыл бұрын

100%. I think the issue is people are getting confused because they think FOC effects the dynamic spine of the arrow so they are trying to just look at the part of the arrow that flexes. What we are really talking about is that the flight of a projectile will follow the center of mass irrespective of shape. The arrow doesn’t know and it’s made out of multiple materials its mass is dictated by it’s over all length including the full length of the tip and knock. You should find that this reduces over all FOC because you are increasing the overall length while keeping the balance point constant

@greatwhitenorth762

2 жыл бұрын

I get where Boman49 is coming from, being a stickler for details myself in most things, but my assessment is thus; FOC as calculated by the current accepted formula, may not be geometrically correct, for the reasons Boman gave, but in a way it doesn't really matter. The reason i say so is because ultimately it's just an arbitrary metric derived from a formula that is somewhat arbitrary in it's parameters. The way i look at it, as long as we all understand what the formula is and what range of values (ie. 11 to 16% for Kellen's preference) we personally are willing to live with, then does it really matter whether or not the formula is "correct" or not? Now, having said all that, i refer back a couple sentences ago when i said "somewhat arbitrary" when speaking about the parameters chosen to calculate FOC. I have a theory as to why it is that the overall length used in the current formula runs only b/w the nock throat and the front end of the arrow shaft. Colin touched on it when he said "...they think FOC effects [affects] the dynamic spine of the arrow so they are trying to just look at the part of the arrow that flexes." Bingo. At least imo. The reason, i believe, that the formula is structured the way it is, is for that very reason...because FOC does in fact affect the flex of the arrow shaft. How do we increase FOC? We generally install a heavier tip/broad head, or a heavier insert, or both. But the static spine hasn't changed. And if we're pulling the same draw weight, then unless we buy new arrows which are stiffer, we run the risk of being under spined and getting too much flex in our arrows. Hence, imo FOC is a measure of something that when pushed to a value too large, is going to have a detrimental effect on the flex of the arrow shaft, and hence that's why the formula was set up the way it was....measuring just the distance b/w the point of thrust (the nock throat) and the far boundary of the thing being impacted by altering FOC, namely the arrow shaft. Just my personal musings on it. Thanks for listening. :)

Thanks for the info!

Hey man. Have you looked into Dr Ashby’s research? Thanks

Great video! I'm a 26" draw and am shooting 60 pounds currently... looking at a black eagle deep impact arrow. They come with different GPI and outsert weights depending on spine. Any suggestions? Thanks! Also I want to stick with 100gr broadheads

How do I get a Bow Rack cap?

Kellen - first, just want to thank you for your videos. I, personally, find them very informative...with enough detail to get your point(s) across, but not too much detail to bore the average hunter (with ADD...haha) like myself. With that said, I'm currently shooting a Mathwes VXR 28, 27.5" dl; 70lb dw. I'm shooting Victory RIP Sports 400 spine, 100 grain tips, standard victory inserts, standard blazer vanes, Nokturnal lighted nocks. I've been told that these arrows "should be fine", but personally feel that they are a bit under-spined and too light. I plan on doing an arrow build for my new set-up...curious to what recommendations you may have. Thanks in advance for any advice!

@gsnicholas8522

3 жыл бұрын

You are way under spined. With what you described, you should be using a 350 at a minimum and probably a 300.

@chriscooley8303

3 жыл бұрын

@@gsnicholas8522 I agree 100%. Since my original comment, I have upgraded to Victory RIP XV Elite’s in 300 spine. These arrows perform MUCH better!!

So I have a black eagle carnivore 300 spine with a 90 grain brass insert and a 100 grain field point according to this calculator I'm at 16.954 I was thinking of a 125 grain field point. I'm shooting an elite ritual 30 with 28dl and 72lb what are your thoughts?

I had an arrow at 9.8 percent FOC, it flew great but I chopped it down to try to get over 10, is it okay to hunt with low FOC?

@magnumarrowarchery155

4 жыл бұрын

Ranch Fairy on KZread

I spoke to soon, you got it.

I guess if you haven't seen any science on the subject you don't know who Ed Ashby is. Might want to look him up.

When you shoot an arrow it is being pushed, then when it reaches the end of it's power curve gravity starts to take over and starts to pull. Depending on how many pounds your holding it's about 10/15 yards in a straight line on a walk back. Start at 5 yards and walk back 1 yard at a time you will get a group, so keep walking back until you notice an arrow drop off say at 12 yards. Walk forward to 11 yards and tune there because that is where the arrow shaft carrys it's greatest amount of energy just before gravity starts to take over at 9.8 metres squared match that number to 10 percent f.o.c .

How does this work if the arrow has a collar like a platinum Pearce over the insert

@InsideOutPrecision

4 жыл бұрын

That would just add more FOC

Sooo...I need some assistance once again. I am pulling 65 to 70lbs with a 29 draw. I currently am using 340 spine with 100 grain broadhead. I would like to add some more punch yet maintain good speed. What arrow setup do you recommend pulling 65lbs and 70lbs? Thanks in advance. J

@magnumarrowarchery155

4 жыл бұрын

Ranch fairy on KZread

@windellpenton

3 жыл бұрын

3gpi weight tube for your shaft ..

@greatwhitenorth762

2 жыл бұрын

Hey Jacoby, i'm no expert but just based on what i've learned so far if it were me i would probably just go to a 125 gr. broad head, or change out the insert to brass, say about 50 gr. Or do both. But at 70 lb. dw you may have to get into a 330 or 300 spine if you make those kind of changes to up front mass.

Have you read the Ashby reports? F.O.C. helps penetration.

Dude. Ready the Ed Ashby reports on this. That’s the science you need. :)

@kduffin33

3 жыл бұрын

Those studies are pretty outdated and were done mostly in the 80s where they didn’t have anywhere near the compound bows they do now in fact a lot of the studies were done using Tradd bow technology. Not to mention they were trying to get approved to hunt in Africa where many of the big game animals are much bigger than anywhere else in the world, also because they were using older tech many of the arrows were simply heavier because of the material(wood or all aluminum) used and since the bows were going much slower they needed a higher FOC to cut through a bigger animal. FOC isn’t as important when your shooting a bow that can crank out arrows at around 300fps. With a 450-500 grain arrow your going to blast through anything In nor the America and not having to sacrifice trajectory, which is a much more common factor in spot and stock situations with fluctuations in yardage in a matter of seconds.

@interestedmeow

3 жыл бұрын

@@kduffin33 if anything the newer tech makes what Ashby was observing MORE relevant not less. If your bow can crank out 300fps but trad tech still kills at less than 100fps, why wouldn’t you load the heaviest (read most efficient) arrow on and actually use that speed for something useful? Unless your a modern “hunter” who likes taking pot shots at bulls at 70yds downhill with a couple hours of practice under your belt. If guys like you spent as much time getting close to the animal as you do arguing about speed, you’d understand why you want a setup that will NOT fail and punch as many holes as possible in an animal. If you put effort in you the last thing you want is the very last piece of your setup to fail you. That’s why Ashby is important. And no, arrow drop doesn’t matter if you are close so that argument literally counts for nothing.

@kduffin33

3 жыл бұрын

@@interestedmeow lol yep because you can always count on just get within 20 yards for a perfect shot every time andnot ever have to worry about trajectory when an animals moves yardages? I shoot everyday out past 100yrds ...but I guess since we’re assuming things about someone we don’t know on the internet you must only hunt in a tree stand shooting bucks at a salt lick 15 yards away in your back yard. In which case yea buddy crack a beer sit back and load up a heavy arrow why not... however if my 475gr arrow coming out of a 75lb bow with a 32 inch draw can punch through any bull 99% on the time without issue then I’m not going to add more weight for the sake of adding more weight. Hitting your target should be number one on the list and is number one even in your sacred Ashby reports. If you ever spot and stalk you realize quickly that animals move and you will end up guessing yardages. An arrow that is faster will have much better trajectory and if you guess your yardage wrong by 2 or 3 yards you still have a kill shot in the vitals...where a heavier arrow can put you out of the vitals or miss the animal entirely.

@interestedmeow

3 жыл бұрын

@@kduffin33 that’s the beauty of knowing your setup and arrow drop. You talk like animals are moving 60yds between when you pull back and let the arrow go. If thats the case, I’d suggest you let down son. “Adding more weight for the sake of adding more weight” welp. There’s no fixing that kind of attitude. You’ve got a serious leg up at 32” draw and can use that to make up for any deficiencies your setup may have. No deer hunting here. Elk have an 8” vertical kill zone. If you think a heavy arrow won’t hit inside that if the animal moves a few yards...my thought is you haven’t ever tried to measure arrow drop or figure out how to use it to your advantage. Seriously go try it. Load up a heavy arrow, set up two lines on your target 8” apart set your pin to the 30yard mark and then take a shot at 20 and 40. If you aren’t surprised at the results I’d still say your doing it wrong, or we are talking about very different things when it comes to weight. Which could be the case, a 475gr arrow for you at 32” is a very different arrow then a 475gr for me at 26”. Lol

3:48 - That is where FOC measurement falls down. When your arrow is flying through the air it has a tip or a broadhead attached. Also if you are running a half in/half out insert you might have 40 grains of insert alone hanging out beyond the carbon. eg my arrows from end of outsert to nock throat are 28.5in but carbon to nock throat are only 27.35in. Why on earth do FOC calcs exclude the tip length when coming up with the overall length measurement to plug into the formula. If there's a broadhead and half out on the arrow in real life then why do we not include them. Do the balance point test but include the actual total length (to broadhead point) as the formulas length measurement. You'll see that a real life measured arrow will come out as say 13.6% but in the official carbon-nock method be closer to 16%. It gives you a false picture of what the arrow is actually doing because it generates a theoretical number that exaggerates FOC%.

Do weighted tubes that go in the shaft increase spine? I haven't heard any conclusive evidence/statements.

@InsideOutPrecision

5 жыл бұрын

You know, I've never played around with those. I think all they do is increase the overall weight, but I honestly can't tell you for sure.

@windellpenton

3 жыл бұрын

They do not effect spine .. only total mass .. I use them because I like mass but not a big fan of high FOC.. I prefer 8-9%..

Crazy because I spent an hour or so running numbers through the Gold Tip FOC calculator last night looking at different combinations to get approx 15% FOC. Probably going to try their Airstrike shafts, SS inserts (69.3 gr), and 80 grain points. Total arrow weight calculates to 385 with a FOC of 15.1%. These experiments get $$$$ quickly.

@InsideOutPrecision

5 жыл бұрын

Haha yes they do! That should be an awesome arrow.

So I’m shooting 48 lbs, 26 inch draw length, 373 gain arrow. Easton Axis spt (for shorter draw length and lower poundage) I’m also shooting rage SS for lower poundage. Do you think realistically I could kill a deer?

@jamesmarsee3297

4 жыл бұрын

Check out ranch fairy on KZread, he kills pigs with a 43 pound bow and the arrow has a high foc.

@gsnicholas8522

3 жыл бұрын

@@georgemichael86 agreed. Ditch the flapper and get a good cut on contact head. If it were me, I'd take a long hard look at the Magnus stinger buzz cut for this application.

Step those numbers up!

@InsideOutPrecision

5 жыл бұрын

Haha this was just a crappy range arrow. Definitely not one I'd shoot!

You may lose fps. You may lose a couple foot pounds. But you gain momentum with heavy foc. I used to kill deer at 48 yards. Now I set up so I kill them 9 feet to 12 yards away.

Look up Dr. Ashby

@magnumarrowarchery155

4 жыл бұрын

And the Ranch Fairy on KZread

cacao. An old school hunter and I got the wall to prove it. I set my arrows FOC generally 1to 2 inches front center cause carbon arrows like it. Call the manufacturer they will tell you the same thing. Heavier arrows mean slower arrows its not a bullet with a bullet heavy and fast opens them up arrows dont do that. If you want a heavy arrow just remember your going to give up speed and your first pin instead of shooting 30 yes one pin you shoot 15 or 20. Im not willing to give up either. This guy is 100 percent correct.

Dr ashby and ranch fairy have some good videos about high foc. But as ranch fairy pointed out in the ethics archery interview at the 2020 ata show, if you go past 20% foc you are going to get a nose diving arrow and you have to accept the 15 to 25 yeard limits of that build.

@jousiammuntakanava

4 жыл бұрын

@@georgemichael86 i know that galileio demonstrated that objects fall at the same speed regardless of their mass as early as 1580. But when the momentum is carried at the front of the arrow, it dictates the trajectory that the tail of the arrow follows. The nose dive is happening because the lighter tail of the arrow is more easilly held up by the airflow, and the vanes with the light back end acts as a parachute. But because of the high foc the forward momentum is carried mostly in the tip, it's gravitational pull is not hindered by the airflow. the point being, the heavy front is not affected by the sustaining airflow as much because air is a material gas and therefore obeys the law's of fluid dynamics.

@jousiammuntakanava

4 жыл бұрын

@UClbxp001BrdRv48dWBYB5Ow I really dont have to build arrows to know that, thats why i have a degree in mechanical engineering and fluid dynamics. ( Build some arrows and see what happens) You realy should study the subject you are going to start a conversation about before saying something like that because that kind of thinking is going to cost you a lot of time and money. i tend to study the theory of the thing i am doing as far as i can, so i dont have to experiment to get the results i want. and i really think that you are now confusing the nose dive of the arrow and it's trajectory whitch are to completely different things. in practise you can demonstrate the effect i just explained to you by filling a barrel with water and then dropping a hammer in to it horizontally. the trajectory of that hammer is straight down but the heavy end is going to hit the bottom first. This is because the momentum's anchor point of that hammer is at the heavy end and it will overcome the resisting force of water more easily than the saft thus falling heavy side first. this is the easiest way i could think of to educate you to understand the subject. and if you dont understand the subject after this, i will have to quote you "i really dont know what to say".

High FOC >20% only benefits on impact. Arrow flight and strength trumps everything else including FOC. If you have a crappy flying arrow with high FOC, it isn't going to help you. People seem to do that math backwards :-/

@steveyd101

4 жыл бұрын

@dualspectrumreality ytilaermurtcepslaud I shoot heavy and high FOC on all my arrow setups. But I know what I'm doing. A lot of people try to use high FOC as a solution to their shitty arrows :-)

But what does f.o.c stand for

@InsideOutPrecision

4 жыл бұрын

Front Of Center

The vanes are pulling.

I just don't understand why people would wan't to work on the dimensioning end of the energy function.

@gsnicholas8522

3 жыл бұрын

Because kinetic energy is not nearly as important as momentum for arrow penetration. There's several things that effect how an arrow performs. Troy Fowler (ranch fairy) does a good job explaining this.

@jacksonmclellan3370

3 жыл бұрын

greg nicholas yea I watch him religiously however momentum is only a portion of bow hunting. KE will crack a rip and get to the kill zone. So will good momentum but KE is usually pretty good when momentum is good. However, to say all that when you’re throwing a hog of an arrow at a white tail or antelope or what not it doesn’t matter how much penetration you get when the animal has change your POI by 5 inches before your arrow even gets there.

@gsnicholas8522

3 жыл бұрын

@@jacksonmclellan3370 the difference in flight time between 250 fps and 280 or more is minuscule at ethical hunting ranges. To my knowledge there isn't a bow in existence that's faster than an animal's reaction time. When I first started bow hunting, a typical setup was in the low 200s. I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally experienced more string jumping with faster bows. That along with inconsistent results is why I went back to heavier arrows.

@jacksonmclellan3370

3 жыл бұрын

greg nicholas you see in ranch fairies videos that even pigs get a move on his arrows and nearly every pro archer will tell you there’s a balance to the speed and weight. Levi Morgan being one to question ranch’s comments heavily

@gsnicholas8522

3 жыл бұрын

@@jacksonmclellan3370 you're right, they do move. They move on fast bows too. What Troy is promoting is based on Dr Ed Ashby's research. Dr Ashby collected his data over 27 years and over 1000 successful harvests. Between that and personal experience and observation I'll lean that way. Not to take anything away from Levi, he's a phenomenal target archer, but he doesn't have anywhere close to that kind of real world hunting experience or success.

the Ranch Fairy on youtube has all the math and science behind high foc arrows being the most lethal hunting set up for archery there is. You should do your home work before saying there's no evidence for it.

@InsideOutPrecision

4 жыл бұрын

I won't deny for a second that a heavier arrow carries its momentum better. I understand the physics. But like I said in the video, sometimes its overkill. And in terms of penetration, yes, high FOC helps. But in terms of flight characteristics, once you get over 20% groups start to open up a bit.

@InsideOutPrecision

4 жыл бұрын

Even with 30% FOC, the over all weight of the arrow is what matters when it comes to penetration. If I have 30% FOC on a 350 grain arrow its not gonna penetrate shit.

@gsnicholas8522

3 жыл бұрын

Dr. Ed Ashby did all the research and data collection for the information that Troy Fowler uses. Troy simplifies it and he brought it to the masses.

@windellpenton

3 жыл бұрын

Overall mass matters .. 10% FOC is all that’s needed for accuracy and arrow flight . I use weight tubes for mass as it doesn’t move FOC..

@gsnicholas8522

3 жыл бұрын

@@windellpenton read Dr Ashby's 27 years worth of real world hunting research. You'll find that what you just claimed is not entirely true.

Your theory on losing KE is completely off. A heavier arrow retains KE at range much better than a light arrow. The science is there. You just haven’t seen it.

Valkyrie broadheads and Reign arrows. I'll never shoot anything else out of my bow.

Look up Ranch fairy

@InsideOutPrecision

3 жыл бұрын

If you actually watched the video you'd know that I've read/ watched all of Ranch Fairy's content.

Watch the Ranch Fairy on youtube

@InsideOutPrecision

4 жыл бұрын

I've seen his stuff. I totally understand the physics behind a heavy arrow and high foc. But you sacfrice flight characteristics and accuracy beyond 40yds with extremely high foc and a 700 grain arrow is just over kill. Ive blown through shoulders with a 480 grains arrow like it was nothing. Just my take though

@InsideOutPrecision

4 жыл бұрын

@@georgemichael86 100% speaking from experience. Built six 250 spine pro hunters and used the 100 grain brass insert with my 125gr field point. Came out to about 22% foc. Hit hard and shot pretty well, until I got passed 40yards. Felt like I was breaking strong shots, so I grabbed my trusty Axis 300's and stacked all five into a 2 inch group at 50 yards.

Well, try it and post a video of your results. Let's see what ya got . Just sayin

@InsideOutPrecision

3 жыл бұрын

I have done it. Groups open up big time past 40 yards. There's a reason you don't see any pros shooting an foc much higher than about 16-18%. If you want more penetration, go small diameter and higher GPI.

@matrix1171

3 жыл бұрын

@@InsideOutPrecision absolutely, 15 to 18 percent is a good enough foc for this Application. 19 max

Some people worry about this "FOC" thing way too much when it comes to modern compound bows. if you get the right spine and weight for YOUR bow setup then you will be fine. there is no "voodoo majic", either the arrow flies straight or it does not! FOC is less important for modern compounds than it is for traditional archery where everything is well under 200fps.

@robertsophiea05

4 жыл бұрын

Yup! I run the factory inserts and 100gr heads. Find my arrows 8" in the dirt on the other side of the Deer every time. I am not sure what problem everyone is trying to solve😂

Go watch Ranch Fairy’s channel if you want to be better informed about high FOC’s.

19% is the majik number

Like throwing a lil stone and trying to throw a big stone ..... lil stone will go further,..... physics

@InsideOutPrecision

5 жыл бұрын

Yes it will go further but not hit as hard when it lands....physics.

Sounds like a sham by telling people that adding weight changes the spine. Come on, the spine doesn't change. The flex of that spine will change, yes, but a .340 with 100 gn tip is still a .340 spine with a 300 gn tip. More appropriately you should mention that if you go from a 100 gn. tip to a 300 gn. tip that you'll more than likely need to get a heavier spined arrow (i.e. 300 or 250). Overall, this video is too vague to try to justify, or denounce, high FOC and gives off a feel that you're a huge advocate for high speed and mechanical heads anyways. Which is contradictory to HFOC arrows anyways. My 535 grain arrow build last year flew very well and hit like a tank and am currently building an even heavier arrow and also going with 2 blade single bevel heads as well for this coming season. Enjoy selling the laser fast ping pong ball arrow sales while they last. I think people are getting tired of not having pass through's on their 330 fps arrows and are starting to see the light. The latest trend, you know, of killing animals with complete pass through's and quiet arrows.

@InsideOutPrecision

4 жыл бұрын

Talk to any pros and see what they tell you about FOC. And yes it effectively weakens your spine to add weight to the point, I mention that in this video and my arrow spine video. And at no point do I tell people to shoot light arrows. In my mother videos I say how any arrow in the 430- 550 range is great for hunting.

Swing and a miss! F.O.C is meaningless term along with spine. Its jargon made coming from industry people who didn't understand what they were doing.

@InsideOutPrecision

5 жыл бұрын

Absolutely false. Have you ever actually tested it or are you just listening to guys at your local range? There's a reason people who make money winning tournaments spend hours playing with point weight and arrow length to achieve the most forgiving spine for their set up. Don't believe me? Try shooting a group at 60yds with a 500 spine arrow and a bow set at 29" and 60lbs and send me a pic.

@aaronward3882

5 жыл бұрын

@@InsideOutPrecision no need to test the terms F.O.C and spine, like I said there just jargon. I 100% agree with with everyone who says when they change the arrow system the result changes. However I haven't heard anyone properly describe the reactions in an arrow system. For instance adding point weight doesn't decrease the resistance of the shaft( aka spine) being bent it only increases the force applied to the arrow shaft thus changing its moment of bending and how much it will bend. Its actually possible to plug the proper data into a formula to calculate how the arrow system will react to the force of the bow but instead we just talk about fictitious thing like spine and F.O.C. There is a better way, we just need to get the physics, strength of materials, and statics books out and learn what's really happening!

@hunterwelton3010

5 жыл бұрын

How are they meaningless terms exactly? With a weak spine and a heavy head the arrow bends to the extreme and can break. With a heavy spine and a light head the arrow doesnt flex enough and becomes inaccurate. Yes you can plug the numbers in but if you actually go out and shoot your damn bow you will notice a higher foc arrow that is built properly will out shoot your light toothpicks you are shooting every time.

@aaronward3882

5 жыл бұрын

@@hunterwelton3010 F.O.C is a number that demonstrates how the mass is distributed in a arrow system. An arrow system can achieve 20% F.O.C in many point configurations (inserts, outsert, half out, etc.) Each configuration will perform different with the same F.O.C. For me F.O.C is a term that is misrepresented, misleading, overused, and overemphasized. Where and how much the shaft bends when being shot from the bow is what determines accuracy. Just like in math, if you change any number in the equation you change the outcome.

@aaronward3882

5 жыл бұрын

@@hunterwelton3010 Spine of an arrow shaft is found by suspending it between blocks spaced 28" apart then placing a weight on the center of the shaft. The distance the shaft bends is measured with an dial indicator. A 400 spine arrow shaft means the arrow bent .400" + - when the weight was applied. I believe there is 2 weight standards when measuring spine so one manufacturer's spine may not be the same as anothers spine. My problem with the spine systems is the force applied to the side of the arrow has little or nothing to do with the force applied to the rear of the arrow when shot from a bow.