14:15 if you're looking for the answer

@wildness01

3 жыл бұрын

basically bad bms, had to be manually reconnected after a trip-but still had a microdraw in tripped state, overdischarged the bank

@keckus

3 жыл бұрын

The hero we need, thx for guiding us to the answer.

@100mpgus

3 жыл бұрын

THANK YOU!

@davetoms63

3 жыл бұрын

get so tired of youtube videos that go on and on and on

@kh8655

3 жыл бұрын

@@davetoms63 don't forget -> settings/ playback speed is always your friend, use it all the time

You got 8.5 years out of experimental LiFePO batteries that were abused and limited with BMS' that were not quite right. You got your money out of that system.

@thesurvivalist.

3 жыл бұрын

I was thinking the same thing, a good BMS would have solved that problem!

@sharon69969er

3 жыл бұрын

exactly, with the way they were treated 8.5 years is a good wicket. that's over 3,000 cycles

@UnifiedInfo

3 жыл бұрын

That thing needs a trickle to balance and new bms👍

So interesting! Thanks for sharing. You guys are so cool to be one of the first people to have lithium batteries in your RV! Such pioneers in the field...your channel is my go to for all things RV techie! 🤓

Great story and video! You two are truly LiFePO4 pioneers! I recently upgraded my truck camper power with 500AH of BattleBorn, a Victron 3000W inverter/Charger and 680W solar. Finished it mid May and have been off the grid since. Energy independence is awesome. I share your tiny spaces installation experience although I didn’t have quite the depth to crawl into. Again, great story and video!

@juliogonzo2718

3 жыл бұрын

How long do you figure it takes to break even vs paying for hydro on grid?

@Cutlass_Rudd

3 жыл бұрын

@@juliogonzo2718 X2 and what do you need that much power for in a truck camper??

@UnifiedInfo

3 жыл бұрын

@@Cutlass_Rudd welding😅 lol not sure one intense system on a truck through

Really enjoy all the info you give to your followers. Thanks

Thanks for explaining your old system. I also love my Battleborns!

This is so cool I, remember your videos from back in the day and they really helped me along my lithium journey.

Well done great time reading your post back then. Keep the sunny side up!!!

Thanks for sharing the information. I don't recall reading or hearing of any RV'ers having lithium back then. Safe travels.

Thanks for sharing your story of the lithium ion batteries! We just upgraded to a 100Ah Battle Born battery in our small trailer. We are loving it.

@vtorsi610

3 жыл бұрын

And you get the full (rated) 100AH. And there is no issue with Partial-State-of-Charge = sulfation ...

Nothing lasts forever, but as far as a learning experience, you did great. That's definitely the way the industry is going and your knowledge base will just expand with it. Thanks for sharing and good luck with the Battle Born installations.

@drpc98014

3 жыл бұрын

properly used and cared for and kept in a better temp environment you should be able to get closer to 15 years probably more. At least with today's products.

Love my Battle Born Batteries! Specs have made these a great option for years of usage saving money, weight as well expenses! I'm using these to supply 200 amps and run all 12 volt systems including converting to 120 volts for appliances. The Batteries have been below 32 degrees and resumed charging once inside temps reach proper level to charge. System powers 12 volt 3.5 cubic foot fridge/freezer, LED lights, 12 volt Heater fan and 12-volt vent fan. not satisfied with solar panels but, that's another issue once I buy better panels and mount them on top of the trailer. Thanks for your series on batteries you used both in Y-not and the bus!

@vicinitydigitaldesig

3 жыл бұрын

But Battleborn are not supplied to Australia :(

@drpc98014

3 жыл бұрын

Battle Born is a Good Product but too high a cost for my budget. I refuse to use lead acid so BIY is my only other option. Unfortunately they also don't supply a engine starting designed battery

@mperdue12

3 жыл бұрын

Yea Weight is a thing. Much easier juggling Battle Borns. How about the "tip it on it's side" feature they threw in for free?

@matteobrayden6843

2 жыл бұрын

Instablaster...

Also... Hi you two! Good to see you still RV & bussing around!

So basically, you cooked them, overcharged them, and fully discharged them for an extended period, and they died. Any modern cell set would do exactly the same thing if treated exactly the same way. I'm glad there was no surprise in here for me, thanks for sharing your story :-) FWIW, you still got good value out of them relative to lead acid of any type that would have weighed way more for ~1000AH, only been dischargable to about 50%, and only about 500-1000 times max (1.5-3 years) with heavy use like yours, so then 3-6 replacement sets in that time frame. :-)

@ericklein5097

Жыл бұрын

Overcharging LiFeP04 is pretty tough. You can technically charge them up to 4.2V (with no capacity gain) without doing any serious damage. Back in the day a lot of people did CC charging up to 4.2V and let the cell rest down to whatever its resting voltage is. Reading old posts on Endless Sphere from the early days of Lithium is quite interesting.

Thank you for sharing this important information listening from Brownwood Texas

I have a BB 100AH as my Jeep house battery - love it! Them being a Nevada company 20 minutes away in Reno is nice too... :)

Thanks for the kind words.

Thank you for such an informative and helpful video

You folks are amazing

8 yrs on "old" battery technology sounds good 👍 glad battery technology has only improved, I'm looking @ Battleborns for mine.

SO HAPPY FOR YOU... I too am getting 4x100 NEW HEATED BBB in January for my RV. AT BBB in RENO, NV

I began using LifePO4 for my customer. I upgrade Prius battery to LFP so I am happy to see that they at least last 8 years because I give them 5 year warranty.

Thank you!

For the literal abusive torture test these batteries were put through, overheated, overcharged, very badly balanced, and finally over discharged well below the recommended specs of 2.5 volts per cell -- all of the worst, biggest no's for LiFePo4, for them last 8.5 years shows how good this battery chemistry is and how the worst misuse by novice user error will cut their minimal lifespan by only 1.5 years, down to 3000 cycles (1 cycle per day × 365.25 days × 8.5 years).

Nice insight on an actual first adopter

Cool I love mine too Lithium is the way to go

Parasitic losses even though small are killers over long periods of time. I have given up on BMS and the like for balancing and charge all cells individually if they need a bit more charge to balance. Lesson learned I hope. The Battleborn would have the same problem you encountered under the conditions you described. They do not have active balancing just the same sort of cell discharge as those little boards. There are now active balancing solutions available. More or less $50 per cell. That bank would have cost about $1000 for active balancing. They too have a parasitic loss. There is no free lunch.

@618GOLDENRATIO

4 жыл бұрын

8.5 years Battleborns would have still been under the 10 year warranty

@robertgarbe6348

4 жыл бұрын

I think you are wrong and better evaluate what you are talking about. Active balancing is a fad and of no use whatsoever. You are several years behind, better catch up.

@bingosunnoon9341

2 жыл бұрын

@@robertgarbe6348 So true. It's like the electric bicycle that goes 50kph and has a 100 km range. Too much BS in the industry

Lithium will last 20 years above 80% of original if BMS works correctly. Love my Battleborn. If you ever drain a lithium to the bottom of BMS low cutoff, it should be charged up at least some to prevent natural loss causing damage. Be sure to get Battleborns above 14.2 on a regular basis for balancing to occur. Good info.

I would have balanced them and gone another 7 years. These batteries are pretty bulletproof.

@Technomadia

4 жыл бұрын

Not after being discharged that low, not taking that chance - but you do you.

@lexiecrewther7038

3 жыл бұрын

@@Technomadia I've taken mine to 1.8v a bunch of times. You are being paranoid

@iainkay3630

3 жыл бұрын

Lexie, you need to consider that these are being installed below living quarters. If one of these goes up in flames you really don’t have long to get out before you’re dead. Given the general advice across the industry is never get them under 2.5v, I wouldn’t be trusting batteries discharged that low where they could kill me overnight. I also sure as hell wouldn’t be advising others to do that when, if the worst happens, who’s then potentially liable? I have to agree with Technomadia especially when it comes to advising others.

@mjolnirswrath23

3 жыл бұрын

Lithium is a Chemically unstable element both in voltage terms and if you in contact with moisture or water lithium and water mix like thermite and a chain reaction and uncontrollable chain reaction obviously you didn't pay attention to chemistry class if you charge your batteries that have gone too low that are lithium ion based you are asking for a fire if you're lucky do you have any clue how easy thermite is to make and how comparable in the amount of heat source and toxic spewing of lithium and various other chemical compositions would essentially melt your house down and you in it? They're not bulletproof in fact they're far from bulletproof

@bingosunnoon9341

2 жыл бұрын

Not even bulletproof batteries are able to recover from this depth of discharge.

They didn't even give you a workbench to work on....well still pretty cool that they let you come in and and make your own pack.

Great male/female dynamics :) Great video, many thanks.

On my pack I don't use any kind of balancing or BMS. I just check them with a voltage meter every 12months or so. They were very precisely manufactured and all hold exactly the same amount of Ah. (400 Ah rated 440 Ah actual) at 60 volts. Going on about 8 years here with them used for about 5 hours weekly in a ride on lawnmower and the occasional inverting for 120 volts ac power. They still hold 438 Ah hours to this day good as new. They are the grey ones "CALB" directly from China. I almost forgot the name because I don't look at them any more, lol. At the rate I use them they will last for 30 years or more.

@G-ra-ha-m

4 жыл бұрын

If you have them in parallel make sure you take the inverter power from opposite corners of the back. Otherwise the heavy inverter draw causes small voltage drops in the connecting cables (even if 25mm) and tends to sucker the first battery most which gradually causes pack life-reducing charge imbalances. The Opposite corners method guarantees they all have exactly the same electrical experience regardless of load.

@bingosunnoon9341

2 жыл бұрын

@@G-ra-ha-m The cell nearest the B- terminal goes first.

@bingosunnoon9341

2 жыл бұрын

This is unbelievable in many ways.

@DylanFowler

2 жыл бұрын

@@G-ra-ha-m you can use a shunt connected to a negative busbar, it will cause a more even draw from the cells of the pack, a descent BMS helps a lot too.

@G-ra-ha-m

2 жыл бұрын

@@DylanFowler Even with a big bus bar: taking from opposing corners of a paralled pack makes the current mathematically equal, with any wire: good or bad. :). This is because each battery/cell ends up connected to the main cable by exactly the same length of wire.

Yay! For a minute there I thought Larry was Larry from Starlight where I bought my GBS cells in 2017. Mine seem to holding up just fine 3+ years and running. I do worry about at what temp it might be doing some damage though.

@Lovingkindness.

4 жыл бұрын

Joe the Computerguy, Hi Joe, nope, not me (Larry from Starlight Solar) We now have many hundreds of customers using our Elite Power Solution/ GBS and LiFeBlue batteries. The GBS cells have been extremely reliable and are holding up much better than the bank in this video. I think I have only had 2 cell failures in over 7 years. We have never had a LiFeBlue Battery cell failure. As with all battery chemistries, keep them cool for longest life. The danger of using severely discharged cells is real. Dendrite formation is accelerated which can lead to sudden internal short circuit. This can quickly turn into thermal runaway. Be wise whoever will use these as you will not know it can short out until it happens!

@lindajohnson4204

3 жыл бұрын

@@Lovingkindness. I read about Starlight Solar from an article on solar and AC in Technomadia, and you guys were the ones I wanted to install my solar and batteries, which I would buy from you, even if I had to drive all the way from Florida to Yuma to do so. I was very impressed with your business practices and philosophy, or what I could tell by reading about it. During the same time, I was learning about businesses to beware of, and you seemed to be night vs day vastly better to do business with. I was sorry to learn that they stopped installing systems, but if they are drop shipping what they sell, buying through them might still be the way to go.

@ericklein5097

Жыл бұрын

Over 60C is defintely damage zone. Over 40C but under 50C is great for getting 105% capacity but likely causes slow degradation. Storage should be cool and low charge....40% and under 15 Celsius. If you just have them warm when they are being used and that's a small amount of their life then make sure the rest of the time they are stored cool Long exposure to heat over 45C seems to be the #1 killer of lithium. They can spend short periods in very warm conditions and have great discharge capacity but they can't sit there for a long time over a slow draw.

Nice content!

Nice summary! Thanks for sharing.

In China (on Alibaba) 1000$ usd nets you 4 times the capacity of the LifePO4 that are offered in US. Sure you won't get the US warranty & service, but for some people it may not be as important (I live in Asia). I'm getting 10x100amp at 48v for 10000$, with a customized shelving (even provided the cad diagrams), wiring and battery pack solution straight from the factory.

@nabob14

4 жыл бұрын

From everything I've seen, almost all lithium batteries from china have bloated amp hour ratings. If you were to actually test the batteries, say it's for 200Ah, you might get 150/160Ah...

@YaroslaffFedin

4 жыл бұрын

@@nabob14 I think that's a valid concern, and I accept that this may happen to my order as well. Though it is interesting to be dealing with real manufacturers directly, so at least I know who to contact and who to blame in case it comes out not following the specs. The weight of the batteries checks out, and I will make sure to test them when I get to it. Still even if they are over-promising on about quarter of capacity, it's still 3x as cheaper as other offerings.

If that board uses 1mA constantly that makes about 4,4 Ah in six month. More than I suspected. As usual devil is in the details. For a full battery (or even 1/4 full) 1mA would not have been a problem, but now it was. Also as usual there is no single reason for disaster and even some small thing, like forgetting to turn lights off from storage could have been enough to save battery. Thanks for video and information!

@drpc98014

3 жыл бұрын

depends on what the led is drawing, 1 ma seems a bit low, I think 10 ma might be more realistic

@1978jra

3 жыл бұрын

@@drpc98014 True, I did calculation purposely on the low side.

@wingerrrrrrrrr

3 жыл бұрын

@@drpc98014 10mA would be current at maybe 2V though. If they simply used a dropping resistor for current limiting, it would waste a large amount of power. I'd have to think they did it more efficiently than that.

I've had my Battle Borns for 2 year and drain them to the very last drop and they do just fine.

@tieferbk

4 жыл бұрын

Battle Born batteries have a built-in low-voltage cutoff at 10V, so you're not really getting the "very last drop" out. Like any other battery of this chemistry, pulling the last amps out would kill them. BB is just smart enough to bundle the BMS into the battery package. I agree they are a great product, though.

@vtorsi610

3 жыл бұрын

@@tieferbk They are getting the "very last drop" because they are RATED at 100AH and the actually get 100AH. HOW the technology allows 100AH of consumption, is irrelevant to the end user ...

@drpc98014

3 жыл бұрын

@@vtorsi610 sucking the batteries to completely empty then recharging to full is a great way to reduce 5000 cycles to 1000.

@vtorsi610

3 жыл бұрын

@@drpc98014 Yes, we all know that there is an INVERSE relationship between DOD ( Depth-of-Discharge ) and the Total-Number-of-Cycles

@robostrikeyou4365

3 жыл бұрын

If you or going to 100% DOD every day they will not last very long, if you get 5 years you be lucky. Either increase you battery capacity or insure you recover them to 100% every day.

The lithium Battery Journey is daunting if like me don't have a clue. We have a pop-up would like to know your thoughts on us having this in it please. So we could dry camp too. Love your adventurous lifestyle. God Bless and Keep Safe.

Battle Born the best of the best

Just out of curiosity, and going back to the EMS cutoff issue which handed the death sentence to your original bank, aren't there EMS systems available now that would do an automatic reset once viable power is restored? (I'm thinking maybe Hughes Watchdog...and there may be others that are better for your application.)

@Technomadia

4 жыл бұрын

Yes.. but our pack pre-dated that.

Nice video

It would be interesting to see did the front battery bank die more quickly than the back battery bank. By the way, when you wire your new Battleborns, make sure that you use equal length wires for each battery; if you don't do this, the shortest-wired battery will be drawn on first and will degrade your power as the first battery wears out more quickly. In an equal wire-length configuration, all batteries will be drawn on equally and the entire bank will last years longer.

You were certainly on the forefront of the lifepo4 revolution. That is pretty cool. Nice the BB's were given to you. I guess I missed that. I hate to see people plop down so much money for BB's or Relion batteries. Its just unnecessary. I think the premium brands like BB and Relion will slash prices at some point (they are slightly down now, but not nearly enough) . They are going to go the way of the dinosaur if they don't. I am shopping for a new 400ah pack now, and I am having a hard time deciding how to go. DIY is so cheap and very high quality. But there are many other options that are just marginally more expensive and offer very high quality too. Enjoy your new BB batteries. They will be with you for a long, long time!

@ericklein5097

Жыл бұрын

Server rack batteries have gotten pretty close to the total cost of DIY with BMS, cables, and a box. Still double the price if you source your cells from Alibaba but just soooo much easier picking out a 16S 48V 100Ah battery from your preferred supplier (they're all so similar) and putting them in a rack, on a shelf, in your bed, at the kitchen table.

@michaeldoherty2289

Жыл бұрын

@@ericklein5097 Very true. But the DIY'er can build a fabulous bank at huge savings. I looked hard at some of the new server rack batteries for my RV last year when I upgraded my 3 year old 12v 240ah lifepo4 battery , but still went DIY so I could control the form factor. Saved 33% or so on a 412 AH 12v battery. Insulated/heated box and better BMS too. On top of that it was fun and challenging. If you are the least bit handy and have to tools and space to do the work, I always encourage people to go DIY. Its just a great way to get a super battery and learn more than you'd ever learn otherwise.

Not sure that the LED's on the BMS are the culprit. Today I got my GBS batteries out of storage after two and a half years, the BMS LED's were all still on and cell voltage had dropped from 3.3V to 3.2V. I would definitely have tried to salvage your batteries by trickle charging each cell individually. No reason you couldn't have got another ten years use out of them.

@makomk

4 жыл бұрын

Cells this size should be able to power a tiny indicator LED for many years if reasonably well charged. As others have pointed out, the problem is likely that they were fully discharged first.

I have the bms set to turn the power off at 50% for my house. I'm heavily conserving of power and battery longevity. Also the urge to increase the amount of capacity is addictive and expensive. As long as the energy company isn't getting my money its all good. I love the ability to harvest my own energy. Lovely video, you guys are a team and I'm subscribed for more great content. 🌞⚡

did you recycle or sell these battery thanks for video

@Technomadia

3 жыл бұрын

We donated them to someone who wanted to see if they could get them back to working.

What a great value, wish that lifepo4 can be on laptops or phones.

@Technomadia

3 жыл бұрын

Laptops and phones use a different kind of lithium battery chemistry more focused on enabling small sizes.

Those gosh darn dendrites. Good review guys.

Ya.... this is why i do manual balancing as a rule.. there's so many battery management systems that destroy the battery. 12v is easy to manually balance anyway.

@MartinBogomolni

4 жыл бұрын

Yep! Modern balancing systems are a lot better -- but it's all things that people have learned over time. Still ... nearly NINE years from a heavily cycled cell bank is great!

You guys are a well spoken and intelligent couple. I like the way you speak to the camera as though you are talking to me personally. But I think $1,000 for 100 amp hours is still too steep. At this point in time the economies of scale ought to have brought this price down a whole lot more than when you originally bought those old batteries. I think maybe $1,000 for 200 amp hours would be more fair. Just curious, but you mentioned needing 1,200 amp hours to run AC overnight. But can you run your AC at all with these new batteries? If so, how long could you do that? But you told your story well, and thanks for being pioneers!

@Technomadia

4 жыл бұрын

The price has come down for raw cells... BattleBorn's pricing is for a full drop in solution. Pretty remarkable that you can them for the price of what we paid for just parts and doing it ourselves back then. And yes, we can run an AC for about 3-4 hours off the current batteries. Not that we should need to going forward.

Did you put a BMS on to shut it down when the level gets too low, or once they are fully charged To make the charger stop supplying energy!

@Technomadia

3 жыл бұрын

If you watched the video - the problem was with the BMS. It cut did off the batteries, but the sense boards still had a tiny phantom load that further drained the batteries over time.

I've never considered Lithium Ion because of cost .... way beyond our budget. But I also wonder if they had made it to 10 years, if the investment would still exceed an otherwise ordinary AGM investment that would cost one third or one fourth as much and maybe last half as long ? I realize that there are additional benefits such as lighter weight and larger usable capacity but they just don't seem to make them the obvious choice. It might just be that my frugal and meager budget just refuses to give them the benefit of the doubt :-) For that matter, all batteries of every type have had issues in one way or another over time in my 55 years of relying on them. My Makita power drill is the only device I've owned where the battery has lived up to the hype and my expectations with the exception of the battery in my 1996 Ram 1500. I purchased it new and sold it 11 years later with 115,000 miles with the original battery :-)

@arminius301

4 жыл бұрын

Make sure, if you switch to a lithium setup to get Lithium "IRON" Phosphate (LiFePo), not Lithium "ION". The "ION" variety can explode and quickly hand you a huge disaster.....

@tigeroll

4 жыл бұрын

On my pack I don't use any kind of balancing or BMS. I just check them with a voltage meter every 12months or so. They were very precisely manufactured and all hold exactly the same amount of Ah. (400 Ah rated 440 Ah actual) at 60 pack volts. Going on about 8 years here with them used for about 5 hours weekly in a ride on lawnmower and the occasional inverting for 120 volts ac power. They still hold 438 Ah hours to this day good as new. They are the grey ones "CALB" directly from China. I almost forgot the name because I don't look at them any more, lol. At the rate I use them they will last for 30 years or more.

@dankarau2307

4 жыл бұрын

When comparing the cost of one chemistry to another do not get into the rat hole of how many years will they last! The important factor is how many cycles will they endure...the best of the best AGM will last for approximately 500-700 cycles if discharged to 50% and maybe 800 plus cycles if restricted to a 25-30% discharge...LiFePO4 will last 2000-3000 cycles at 90% discharge and then they still have 80% of their original capacity so going 5000 cycles is not unheard of! Now if fulltiming and your system is designed for your daily use (plus a bit) then your AGMs will be struggling to last 2 years (365 days x 2 = 730 cycles) where 10 years of use (365 day x 10 = 3650 cycles) is still in the realm of possibilities for LiFepo4 and you will have 80% of your original capacity unlike the AGMS that have no capacity after 2 years of daily cycles. Can an AGM last 5 years...sure with limited usage or oversizing your capacity to be able to limit discharge...but this means extra costs, more balancing issues and huge weight considerations.

@Lovingkindness.

4 жыл бұрын

Old Hessian , A LFP or LiFePO4 battery is a type of Li-ion. Many people are confused about this.

@G-ra-ha-m

4 жыл бұрын

Sadly AGM are probably the worst for domestic battery use unless you make sure they regularly get 14.7 - 15V to keep them sweet. They are still lead-acid so they sulphate, lead-acid are unsuitable for partial states of charge use. Lithium are very expensive and potentially dangerous: so consider Lead-Carbon. Use on the 'Gel' setting, they never sulphate and last 10x the AGM with better (more lithium) current handling for charge and drain. You also don't need a B2B to protect your alternator.

Good work folks.... would like to know how your BB batteries are holding up....

@Technomadia

2 жыл бұрын

They were just fine when we returned to the bus 2 years later. Didn't do any indepth poking however.

@davidpatrick1813

2 жыл бұрын

@@Technomadia BB folks sure do good by their work. I picked up a V dc2dc 30 am isolated charger and hear that does great. Run your rig if you can and drive it up to 50 miles every few months as that will keep the seals in good shape and lesson oil leaks and so on for sitting and not running... Later.

@Technomadia

2 жыл бұрын

Kinda hard to run our bus every months when we're across the country :)

Perhaps the batteries charged when it was to cold. Did old BMS have cold temperature shut off?

If you are doing it yourself you can get like 500Ah for pretty cheap like from Ali Express you can get 280Ah cells like 8 for 12v and 560Ah for just over $1000 then some BMS

how did you solve the issue of using hi amp draw 110 vac appliances powered through an inverter? my 90's era convection oven/microwave pulls about 1800 watts, that's about 190 amps from the house batteries, toss in a crt style tv, a refrigerator, an ice maker, a separate freezer, all I can imagine is the bms taking the night off. The largest BMS I'm finding tops out at about 100 amps

@Technomadia

3 жыл бұрын

You should be able to find inverters and battery management systems that can handle any current you need. You may need external high current relays for the cut-off - the contractors I used were rated for 500A.

@drpc98014

3 жыл бұрын

@@Technomadia I already have a 2500 watt inverter charger, but finding a bms that allows me to draw 300 amps from a lfp battery is probably not happening. Biggest I have found is 150. Granted I only have 1 house and one engine chassis battery planned.

Thanks for showing us a average life span in real world usage

Can you start the engine with lifepo4 or is it used only for appliances ? Can it handle the power required?

@Technomadia

3 жыл бұрын

We ours setup as the house bank.

@slipkn67

3 жыл бұрын

12v 500Ah, even if it's at 400Ah now you can start 4 bus engines at the same time with this battery.

That's not a terrible deal especially back then I mean that much Battleborn is more than that

My lithium batteries i find prefers to be charged up better in a more comfortable temperature ,and when its warm gives out more distance in my E bike , they of course have bms, it takes 5 hrs to charge up from discharged, the last approximately one hr is balancing time, I am using a 11amp 396wh, and am still using a 2015 battery, its approx three quarters of the range now, I never charge up after coming in from the cold always let sit for a hr or to first to heat up then charge. My battery's are as I said 11 amp 396wh and cost £450 pounds each i have four the chargers are around 90 each I have a couple.

Im seriously thinking on switching from Lead Acid to LiFePO. Im going to be using it solely to run an AC (5-6000 BTU) in the summer. Im going to experiment with the Valence Lithium Batteries. They have their own built-in BMS. They also have options for computer monitoring the over all system through its connection system coming straight from the battery. For approx. 260 Amp hours the cost will be roughly 1000.00 .Im guessing this should be enough power to run a small 5000 BTU AC .I will switch back and forth from my Gasoline Generator to the Batteries.

@iankeegan5047

3 жыл бұрын

I love my valence battery! Built one into a portable system and has been going strong! Being able to hook it up to a laptop to check cell health is mind blowing but the cost of the new diy 280ah lifepo4 cells coming out of china sound really tempting! You can save around 300 bucks going in that direction

@ericklein5097

Жыл бұрын

12V 260Ah isn't enough for an A/C unit. 5k to 6k BTU...is pretty small but you'd still want to bump your capacity up to 350Ah at least to make it through the night. You should really consider ordering cells off Alibaba after reading the DIY Solar Forum to see who the trusted vendors are. You can get 280Ah cells for something like $120 shipped if you buy 16 of them. Prices might be a tad higher now but it used to be 14-15kwh for $1800-$2000. Factor in the BMS for $50 to $200, $200 in misc components, and an optional box..you're in the low $2500 range for the equivalent of 3 48V 100Ah batteries that sell in a server rack config right now for $1500 to $1800 each.

@mannyfragoza9652

Жыл бұрын

@@ericklein5097 thanks

Will you also be considering a split AC unit which many full time RV'er are going to? Reports are that they consume much less power and deliver great cold AC, and in turn heat in the colder months. Another question: Could the batteries just be completely disconnected to insure their longevity ? ...Russell D.

@Technomadia

4 жыл бұрын

No - mini splits would require a complete interior redesign. And... we'll only be in our bus during winters. If we need an AC going forward, we're doing something wrong :).

@KB6YAF

4 жыл бұрын

Technomadia I understand. I is as just seeing how well it worked for the Bus Grease Monkey

@lindajohnson4204

3 жыл бұрын

The first I read about minisplits or LiFE-PO batteries was in a Technomadia article about the possibility of onboard batteries powering an AC. The solution offered was a mini-split powered at 24v, with LiFE--PO 4 batteries as the storage that would make it possible.

AliExpress price is about 1/2 off but you’ll have to wait about 1-3 months for shipping ! But you can save on 5 Qty 3.2v Lithium Phosphate $ 450.00 free shipping

Great resource! How about your experience with insurance companies - Mine has been horrific since Gieco bought out Boat US. Looking for a new company.

@Technomadia

4 жыл бұрын

Recommend reaching out to an authorized agent to discuss your unique needs.

Batteries getting tenure hehe

you can still charge them from 0v they will only have higher internal Resistance but same capacity ive done it on loads of winston 60a cells and they are perfect after 0v

@bingosunnoon9341

2 жыл бұрын

Wrong.

@marbesky

2 жыл бұрын

@@bingosunnoon9341 elaborate

I brought them back to life. Work fine. Maybe they want to sell you a new pack. But mine swelled. Then put a mid voltage on them for 2 weeks, then fully charge them. Seem ok.

I have the opportunity to purchase two different 12V LiFeP04 Battery packages (one 12V 100AH, of a particular size, and the other 12V 200AH battery of a different size), from two different manufacturers, but for 1/2 price of typical LiFeP04 batteries. My goal is to place the two 12V batteries in Parallel. My question is: (1.) Is it safe to place two dissimilar manufactured batteries in Parallel? (2.) Can it damage either one, or both of the Battery packages?

@Technomadia

4 жыл бұрын

I wouldn’t do it without assurances from both manufacturers. Mixing slightly different chemistries might lead to all sorts of hard to predict problems.

Just about ready to pull the trigger on first set of LiFePO4 for engine starting & chassis power. Any one ever hear of a brand called mr. Li ? They have a 280 ahr cell for a little over 150. I'll need 4 of course. They say it can do 6C continuous and 10C for 30 seconds. My trusty calculator says perfect, since I need over 1000 amps to turn over the diesel engine. So here's the plan: high current tap directly from the battery and charger/chassis power through a 100 amp bms. Any thoughts?

@Technomadia

3 жыл бұрын

You should ask these questions of your battery vendor / installer / consultant. Our experience is as stated in this video for house battery systems.

@drpc98014

3 жыл бұрын

@@Technomadia fortunately or sadly I am the designer/consultant

@P_RO_

3 жыл бұрын

@@drpc98014 Not trying to be snarky here, but if you don't know the answers already, you should not be doing the designing. That goes for designing anything. A fool takes his own advice because he knows no better; a wise man takes advice from others because he wants to avoid being a fool. Someone somewhere has done this or similar already- find them and seek their experience. At that current level a mistake could be expensive, dangerous, or both.

@drpc98014

3 жыл бұрын

@@P_RO_ yes building a engine starting battery has already been done before. The 10k $ question is what's inside. And additionally why is this battery so pricy? A 200 a/hr 12 volt battery shouldn't come with a $1800 price tag.

I am surprised that for people that are so detail oriented, that you'd be willing to spring for Battleborns dear prices. You could have done it for so much less and had every bit as good a system. You could have done a DIY prismatic pack with a very high quality BMS for about $1300.

@Technomadia

2 жыл бұрын

As disclosed, the Battleborns were given to us. And we didn't have time or interest in building our own again. Been there, done that.

If the batteries tend to overheat and loose capacity due to excessive heat then why are you installing your new batteries in the same bay as the heat generating inverter?

@Technomadia

4 жыл бұрын

As noted.. we long ago moved the inverter and batteries to a bigger bay that is ventilated and with the huge waste tanks (which act as temp regulation.)

@scotthelmann5156

4 жыл бұрын

Technomadia - That makes sense. I tried using the water and waste tanks as a heat sink for my inverter when running the airconditioning in the summer but after an hour or two on really hot days my inverter ends up temping out and shutting down. In the winter time running the A/C heat pump for heat is never a problem.

I have a Winston 400Ah 12V single cell bench fixed installation, I only use them at 60% even less, I have sized it to last a long time, I never charge them over 3.6 volts per cell and I never go below the 3 volts per cell, I hope they last 20 years, the main cause is the overcharge, rather than the deep discharge even if it damages them, charging them above 3.6 volts per cell start to ruin, this is the LiFePo4 chemistry, mine are recommended up to at 3.8 Volts and 2.8 volts maximum discharge, this equates to 80% DOD, but it is suicidal they will not last long, I have taken 2500W without problems, 200A continuous are considered normal charging or discharging current, attention to the cold at 32 ° F are damaged during charging! another factor of premature death is the undersizing due to the cost, an RV so at least 500Ah, 800Ah would be more correct. I can not stand the assembled cells you have no control over anything, remember the above parameters otherwise before 5 years you will be back here ... For 3 years I have used them only with the MPPT Midnitesolar 150, setting the maximum and minimum voltage + coupons of passive balancing on each cell, without BMS, all perfect, the BMS mounted only after curiosity and also because everyone recommended and talked about it, but having an excellent charge regulator that manages everything with precision and being balanced with economic passive balancers and never leaving the charge and discharge parameters ... good luck, although I would have continued with single cells already having everything. Ciao

@geraldhenrickson7472

3 жыл бұрын

A quality LiFePo4 battery at 100% DOD will last 1000 -1500 cycles. 80%DOD is NOT suicidal and is quite common amongst RV folk. As to capacity...200 useable AH of 24v battery is plenty if you practice some sort of restraint. Do more with less. Thanks for mentioning the winston batteries...I shall check them out.

@winterburan

3 жыл бұрын

​@@geraldhenrickson7472 I see that battleborn batteries go to you, but I have seen that in the past someone has had problems and failures, I do not know if solved under warranty, and if later eliminated as a defect, it is said that they are impossible to charge under a certain temperature, I know also that most of those who live in RVs have at least 4 or even 6 or more, with the Lifepo4 you can afford to make a single @ 12V system since they accept high charge and discharge currents without problems and are not delicate like AGM leads, for example with a 400Ah @ 12V bench you can take and enter 200A (2400W) without problems, they take up less space and weigh less, the Winstons are particular and have a different chemistry to withstand the cold more than any other cell , I prefer them to single cells because I can manage and control them, cmq 80% DoD is correct and it is the classic use (I think it is 2.7V / 3.6V or worse 2.8V / 3.8V) at 100% of the DoD (2.5 volts and 4 volts) only on paper 1000 cycles, i or I should do 3000, the Winstons give them a minimum of 2.8 volts per cell so as not to damage them (I keep 3V) if you want you can disconnect at 11.5 volts, and as a maximum 3.8V (I keep 3.5 / 3.6 V) 3.6Volt is the voltage that usually indicates full charge 14.4V, disconnection at 14V)

Maybe if the 2nd round of economic relief checks magically appears...maybe I can go BattleBorn...I hope so as my AGM's are slowly degrading.

@Wavefront101

3 жыл бұрын

$600 I guess that will get a 600wH cell, and the 8 billion of 9 billion dollar "relief" will go to special interests. Those polylieticians sure are generous.

The cost of 1KW of lithium in 2020 is $135.00 manufacturing cost, based on a 3x multiplier you should not be paying more than $500.00 for a retail 1.3KW in this day and age. Battle born is nice but no longer competitive even for the same quality. Their pricing made sense in 2017.

@Foxfried

3 жыл бұрын

@@justindozone2160 I recommend EVE 280 Cells that are selling for $115.00 on average. These are .9KW energy, you can make a nice big 15KW pack for under 2000.00 including a BMS and wires.

What are the disposal costs and who accepts used lithium batteries

@Technomadia

4 жыл бұрын

Every state is different.

@buteos8632

3 жыл бұрын

Our "green" politicians and corporations don't really care, as long as people vote for them for saying that they do, and people don't usually care, these couple just gave their old toxic waste to someone else, out of site out of mind 😄 very silly and thanks to that not only were not prepared for the increase of dead batteries toxicity but we're killing our cheapest energies...🙈 silly dumb green people!

Have you found a place to recycle those?

@Technomadia

2 жыл бұрын

A follower offered to take them and try to bring them back to life.

Lithium Titanate is soo much better. Freezing won't kill them...heat not as much. Can run em down to zero and it doesn't really matter. Cut em in half..no problem. 20,000 to 30,000 cycles. Ebay there are lots of em.

Cool where can I get some bus bars for the greens cells

@Technomadia

3 жыл бұрын

We got ours from Elite Power Solutions. I would check with any company selling cells for options.

@solarandwindinsouthtexasda1473

3 жыл бұрын

@@Technomadia I got 40 cell but now bus bar

@solarandwindinsouthtexasda1473

3 жыл бұрын

Good morning I looked everywhere and I still cannot find those busbars

No hazard hook em all in parallel charge to 3.6. Let sit 24 hours. Then hook em back up with a bms they go another 10 years.. don't throw em away.

Ya I imagine it doesn't take much power to drain them when it's already dead

Bms is supposed to discharge battery with light. It's how there designed. If it did not do that then they could malfunction so they were working correctly in that read fom what I've seen other say

@vtorsi610

3 жыл бұрын

@gh fjj - No, "... BMS is *NOT* supposed to discharge battery with *light* ..."

Sounds a LOT more expensive to buy Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries at $1000 a piece for 100 ah compared to simple lead acid batteries at $200 for 12 volts 100 ah. Perhaps its $400 equivalent, but it is far cheaper than $1,000. I have gotten my golf cart batteries to last about 8 years. Could stretch them out more if I micromanaged, partial charged (not bubbling), etc. The problem wasn't the chemistry, but the monitoring/balancing systems failing. Until they are bullet proof, how can they compare? Buying essentially used cells from China? Roll of the dice as to how long they'll last. I'm currently living off grid and using two fork lift batteries for several buildings. Monthly watering and that's it. 8 years so far, charged and discharged daily down 20-30%, and going strong. I'll try for 12 year on these. Best bet for extremely long use, though made for building/house use? Nickel Iron. Can last 100 years with electrolyte changes every 5+ years. FAR cheaper than all other batteries if not mobile because of weight and lower efficiency. Just buy bigger and more of them for long term cheap use.

Can't even imagine letting a fridge run in storage like that. Certainly it was empty, which is worst case for a fridge: with no contents, it will cycle on off much more frequently due to no thermal mass slowing down the cooling. Which also says nothing of the wear and tear on the compressor for 1.5 years shortening it's life.

@Technomadia

3 жыл бұрын

No, we did not leave it empty - we left a lot of cans and bottles for thermal mass. And remember, it was only intended for a few months when we left.

Check out /search pacific yacht systems on KZread Multiple videos for electrical system options

Just slowly charge them to 3.6V per cell and let them sit for a few weeks. Check again the voltage. If they decreased to 3.2 ....throw them, if they are still at 3.5V, you are lucky.

Regardless of battery chemistry, attention to the small details often determines life or death for the batteries. My application is short term backup power for grid outages - battery-powered AC long enough that I'm not out in a thunderstorm or shoveling 7" of snow at 30F to get a gasoline generator running which is basically "Wait until daylight" power. My prototype system was powered by DataSafe AGM batteries (82AH, used at $35 each) which I carefully nursed to almost 9 years of age. Because everything was designed around those batteries, I replaced them with 420AH of AGMs last year and I expect to use these for a similar number of years. In my application, $300 for a set of 12 month old batteries makes sense. In your application, more than 10 times the expense makes sense. You lucked out on the cables - buying copper is almost like buying silver ;-)

Did you say 4k for 500 ah@12v or 6kwh. That is very inexpensive. U found the true OEM, original equipment manufacturer, source

Assuming you discharge every night (if you use solar), that is a daily cycle. 8.5 years times 365 days per year.. Is 3103 cycles.. That is a normal lithium battery lifetime, right? I mean, if you keep it to 20% to 80%..You could get what, 1500 more cycles? 3000 cycles, especially big cycles is not bad at all.

If they only dropped to 2v per cell, that's damaging but not fatal to the cells. These bats seem a bit more resistant to undervolt than lead bats.

@Technomadia

3 жыл бұрын

These are vintage LFP cells. I expect more recent chemistry tweaks are more resilient.

👏🏽 Have you been able to use renewable diesel and upgrade/add a catalyst to your bus?

@Technomadia

3 жыл бұрын

We often sought out biodiesel way back when we had a diesel Jeep Liberty, and occasionally have used B20 in our bus. But we have never made going to full B100 a priority - it just is not practical for our style of travel.

So basically whole point is that tinytini green led blinking will be suck up the most of juice in 6 month? Not sure how big that green led light is but you should calculate the math if you really that way. To be honest I doubt that very much.

@vtorsi610

3 жыл бұрын

Do you not watch the video? The batteries we so discharged, they were automatically disconnected from the loads and from the charger. Then with just an average 5ma LED draw, in 6 months, that would be another 22 Amp-Hour discharge per cell ! To be honest, you know very little ...

There are some really good lead vs. lithium batteries videos. Convinced me that lead is the better way to go, when factoring in pricing, volatility, on-the-road availability and installation. Certainly worth investigating before you spend thousands of extra dollars for lithium.

@Technomadia

4 жыл бұрын

It all depends on your needs. For solar and boondocking, I’d never want to deal with a big lead bank again.

@agent8699

4 жыл бұрын

LA batteries weigh a figurative ton. When you are fulltiming that weight means less other gear can be carried if your CCC is limited. Not a problem for some folks... bu it could be. Fair warning.

@nortonnewmann3711

4 жыл бұрын

I think LA batteries are roughly 4 times the weight of lithium. For us, two Duracell GC2 six volt golf cart batteries gives about 120 AH useable power. The weight penalty is 30# vs 140# - not a killer for us considering $180 price vs $900. But for someone needing 300 - 400 or more AH, you're talking a HUGE weight savings with lithium... albeit at a HUGE cost penalty. Trade offs...

8 years still good lifespan vs agm batteries 🔋 🔋

Okay, I see that you had the LiFE-PO4's under the sofa in the boat. Do they ever run hot on their own? It is difficult to tell from what I have read. On the one hand, it is not supposed to happen. Then you read that anything is possible, including thermal runaways. It would not only be thermally uncomfortable to have the batteries heating up underneath you, but I don't think I could sleep in an RV if they got hot. I know the chemistry of the LiFE-PO4's is supposed to make them much more stable, and keeping them indoors, at room temperature, is supposed to guard against what happened to yours, but I am a little nervous about them. If I get to have an RV, it is what I intend to do, but I'm still pretty ignorant about them.

@MichaelEricMenk

3 жыл бұрын

LiFePo4 Are stable and do not have the problems with thermal runaways. You are thinking about LiNiMnCoO2 batteries.. They have a higher energy density, but are more unstable and have a lower cycle life.

@ericklein5097

Жыл бұрын

I'd sleep on a bed of LiFeP04's. Heck I'd sleep on a bed of the "Razor" cells while people drilled into them.

dream big, ev the bus

the answer is at 14:00

en dond e consigo esas baterias

I wish you could buy battleborn in western Canada as shipping prices from the USA makes it a no go.

@mperdue12

4 жыл бұрын

Amazon Prime

@dankarau2307

4 жыл бұрын

Have them shipped to a US post office service at your nearest border crossing, then drive down and pick them up! We are 2 hours from the border and do this all the time! We use a bar that provides this service that is literally 1 mile from the border...they charge $5 per shipment regardless of size.

@nismo4x4n

4 жыл бұрын

@@dankarau2307 8hrs+ drive for me no thanks.

@tcm4721

3 жыл бұрын

I had been buying Battle born and shipping to Edmonton. No more. I found Lynac last year and have been buying from him. Just bought one of his 200 amphr (240 actually) for just over 500 per kwh..half the price of battle born. These perform every bit as good as battle born s . Will buy another before winter comes.

@nismo4x4n

3 жыл бұрын

@@tcm4721 thanks for the tip

BMS's continue to draw power from the batteries unless there is a hard disconnect.

@Technomadia

4 жыл бұрын

Our EMS triggered a hard disconnect, shutting down even the EMS itself. But the sense boards still had a parasitic load.