First, this is the primary, at one time only, reason for viewing KZread. I enjoy the sharing for the sake of promoting archery...above your own self serving needs. Kudos. Second, testing an indoors setup while outdoors in the wind? Kinda negates it a bit, but obkb. Third, what took me a while to learn is what I now love a lot about archery....the text book answer only gets you close. You gotta tinker and tune after that to strive for excellence. That pursuit is a lot of the challenge and fun. Fourth, please keep these coming. I learn so much, and even when you are out of my wheelhouse....I enjoy these vids, and your personality. You are genuine and it shows.

Great video Steven. I've definitely found spine to be a factor in accuracy, and even more so in forgiveness. Finding the optimal dynamic spine for my set ups has definitely been worth the time put in.

She said- if you cut 1/2" off it will be perfect! I said- live with it! Ain't happening!

@travistwwreck1535

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah ..The batteries would fall out.

As long as your bow is tuned properly it doesn't matter what spine you shoot as long as you have "enough" spine for safety.

@NPC-fl3gq

3 жыл бұрын

With a drop-away, yes (usually), but using a launcher or whisker biscuit etc will make a difference (as the way the arrow wobbles will impact flight coz the arrow is in contact with the bow at release).

@andrewleppien8104

3 жыл бұрын

@@NPC-fl3gq thats why i said if the bow is tuned properly, It makes all the difference.

@WM-jy9dz

3 жыл бұрын

the spine grade reflects Euler's critical load - it is like a safety factor for arrows to make sure that the arrow won't break - the better the bow is tuned the more likely actually it is to get all the momentum from the string transferred into the arrow and the more likely it is that the arrow will break - if you pick spine that is too low for your poundage.

Lovely update on the 50 lbs "Competition use only" Compound Bow project ...... 💗💗💗✌

Thanks Steve! Can't help but feel you had the idea for this video after our phone conversation last Wednesday. Shoot scores and find what works best for you!!

Great info, Thanks Steven. I'm shooting 50# @ 30inches and I find the 400 spine Skylon Radius is perfect for me.

@theamazinggoldfish8713

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah Im shooting an Supra XL (EM cams) with an whisker biscuit, and 350 carbon express arrows with 125g tips,...all just for fun & recreation. Say hello to Jimi for me 🏹🤠👍

I just bought a dozen of the green vap arrows in 400 spine and liking them a lot

From my experience the groupements you're achieving are depending of the symbiosis between so many factors (shape of the wheels/cams, lenght of the bow, weight of the shaft, points, vanes, nocks, etc....) that it's impossible to compute. A good idea for a field archery competition shooter would be to buy a speed meter as past a certain speed point you lose your precision (you can no longer control the bow, with a shooting machine it would be different). For exemple, the best I shooted at 90m was 276 ft/sec. So, on one hand you can shoot high precision at 90m with 28" Easton 620 ACE/70 gr points with a 60 pounds round wheeler, and you will never break any arrow on release (but the riser after several thousands of shots). One the other hand you can shoot 28"/350 spinned arrow/150 gr points with the same accuracy with a 60 pounds/hard cams bow. My 2 cents as far as your video is concerned : it's difficult to be sure between 2 sets of arrows after just 1 end shooting at short distance... Try 90m, and at least 1 full week shooting/counting with each set :-) A good shooter can shoot well with very different arrows...

The untuned arrow may present problems with changing distance like in field archery. Switching between targets from 10 to 80 yards, you may find that the untuned arrows require sideways adjustment of the sight. Larger fletchings can help but they're a band-aid solution at best. At a single fixed distance, may not be a problem and you can totally get away with it by just adjusting the sight. Also, might be a problem if using fixed blade broadheads, but that doesn't apply to competition.

You don't feel the difference because you've got vanes on them, which correct the arrows flight path. Shoot them bareshaft/through paper, you will see the difference. Spine is important because if make any mistake in your shot, it will be more forgiving and more precise if you have correct spine arrow instead of incorrect spine, whether it’s compound or recurve. Another thing is, if you go to hunt and if you have wrong spine arrow, the broadhead may deviate the flight path of the arrow. Also, the vanes have to do more work to correct the flight path of the arrow, so a lot of kinetic energy will be lost and it will reduce the penetration on the game.

@WM-jy9dz

3 жыл бұрын

he changed the poundage from 60# to 50#, hence the lighter arrow (500 spine), so spine should be fine; however the much heavier 350 arrow was built for the 60# bow, and IMO it is pretty keen to expect that a heavier arrow will perform the same way when shot from a lower poundage bow without additional tuning.

@travistwwreck1535

3 жыл бұрын

I have paper tuned, 500- 350 bare shalft, they all shot bullets .all differant brands too . guess it depends on the Bow, rest, user And all i do with my hunting arrows 350 grain 350 spine and my target/ 3D arrows 250 grain 500 spine ultra lights is use a differant pin . I use one pin down for hunting , they group just as tight as each other.

@WM-jy9dz

3 жыл бұрын

@@travistwwreck1535 it all depends on how precise you want to be - if you shoot different arrows, and even if it's only the diameter that differs (in Steven case 0.218 vs 0.232) you have to adjust the arrow rest as now the arrow with the bigger diameter will point up.

Enjoy your videos....from canada...cheers

I shot 350 spine arrows with a 60 lb compound for over a year than changed to 300s, both with 100 grain points, I feel better with the new 300s.

@johndenver5029

Жыл бұрын

I've switched to 300s as well and went with the 75gr insert and 125gr field points. 60# 28.5 arrow length. Do you think I'm properly spined? I'm fighting some weird arrow flight and was thinking it was a spine issue or vane contact on the rest

I'm not sure if you shot the Paragon shafts with Skylon/Paragon tips? I tried it and it did not at all perform well in my opinion. I switched to the Easton X10 tips and it was night and day. They shoot very, very well now. Highly subjective of course, but it's worth a try before you dispose of your Paragons.

Can you do this again indoors so there ais no weather variance? Thank you for the great content!

About ten years ago when I first worked out the dynamics of a compound bow and learned how to correctly tune them I tested an 80lb well tuned Elite with arrows from 500 spine down to 250's. They all grouped the same and they all grouped on the same vertical plane, only difference was the height due to the different weight of the arrows.

@travistwwreck1535

3 жыл бұрын

You shot 500 spine out of an 80lbs Bow...?

@geoffdrew5207

3 жыл бұрын

@@travistwwreck1535 Yes mate, a well tuned 80lb Elite Z28, don't try it with a poorly tuned one. The performance of the Z28 at 80lb is actually similar to many 70lb bows. A junior member of our club won a NSW State shoot shooting 500 spine arrows out of a 70lb Hoyt Turbo which had similar performance to the Z28, the following year he won at the Nationals shooting the same bow with 400 spine arrows.

@WM-jy9dz

3 жыл бұрын

no matter how well the bow is tuned ...such a setup (shooting a 500 spine with 80#) will just risk to exceed Euler's critical load ...like using rated lifting gear for loads that exceeds the rating. Furthermore, at 80# the threshold of 5 grain per poundage would result in a TAW of at least 400 grain thus requiring a relative heavy tip for a 500 spine arrow to be on the safe site. However, the dynamic spine would dramatically decrease with the higher weight at the tip thus making the failing of the arrow even more likely. Please be aware that a breaking arrow during launch can cause dramatic injuries. I also wonder that there was no qualified safety check of the equipment at start of the competition? ...I guess it is common that they only check the bow, but not the arrows (which is obviously wrong). Eta: I have to correct myself: actually, the better the bow is tuned, the more likely it is that the max. momentum from the string is transferred into the arrow and the more likely it is that this arrow will break! Eta: to get the physics right: Euler's critical load defines the load under which the structure (in this case the arrow) will bend. The principle of arrows is that Euler's critical load is always exceeded! ...that's why the arrow bend at launch. The issue is that the bending will go too far if the arrow is too weak and the arrow will snap at the end. Choosing the correct spine is therefore critical to allow for enough flexing without exceeding the breaking point.

@geoffdrew5207

3 жыл бұрын

@@WM-jy9dz Actually the problem with shooting a poorly tuned bow is that the arrow does not come out straight and will wobble much like an arrow shot from a trad bow. The heavier the bow the more likelihood of this wobble being exaggerated to the point of shaft failure. With a correctly tuned bow the arrow comes out basically straight as all the force is applied through the centreline of the arrow greatly reducing the risk of shaft failure. I would never recommend shooting 500 spine arrows from an 80lb bow, apart from a poorly tuned bow there is also the possibility of damage to the shaft that may not be obvious. The point that I was making was that spine is not critical with a properly tuned compound bow. When compounds were first introduced I had been shooting trad bows for 20 years. The general consensus when they were introduced was that because they were more efficient and generated higher arrow speeds a higher spine arrow was required, this was put into print and subsequently repeated for years. Unfortunately it failed to take into consideration why spine is so important with a trad bow and not a factor with a well tuned compound shot with a release aid. A trad bow has to overcome the "archers paradox" and if the spine is not correct the fletches will hit the riser causing the arrow to deflect off course. With a compound bow the string applies force along the centreline of the arrow leaving no requirement for the shaft to flex. There are still many books written that claim there is an "optimum spine" for a compound if you want to shoot accurately, I have proven many times that this is not true. There is a safe range of spines for a compound but apart from that it comes down to what style of shooting you are doing. You wouldn't use a super light shaft for hunting and you wouldn't shoot a super heavy shaft for 3D.

@WM-jy9dz

3 жыл бұрын

@@geoffdrew5207 no, it never will come out straight - the inertia will prevent this ...google Euler's critical load if you interested in the mechanics behind it. That is why the spine needs to have a certain stiffness to minimize the bending (that will occur, not matter how good the bow is tuned) as otherwise the material will collapse under the extreme bending and will break. The inertia of the arrow will always work against the force that wants to accelerate the arrow thus the arrow will bend - how far will depend on the spine.

Are you happy with the Scott Assent? You ever use fulkrum flex for long time I have tru ball ht hybrid flex an sweetspot pro an sweetspot ultra 3 but I need something more comfortable any suggestions I know you have had alot of different ones anyone with suggestions please let me know I had the ultaview hinge but shooting alot it started getting uncomfortable for me everyone hands ✋ different obviously anyone please let me know thank 🏹🏹

500 spine looks good. Wonder what kind of groups 400 spine would have.

350s are already heavier compared to the 500, and then 140 grain tip is added to them while the 500 will accommodate a 100 grain tip: that's a huge difference in arrow weight! ...normally I have to adjust my sight for arrows with different weights, the arrow the sight is adjusted for will always group better. Eta: ...and of course it is not only the sight that needs to be adjusted, but also the bow (paper tuning etc.)... Eta: just run a calc on qspine - the weight difference is: assuming 3 x "normal" fletching, nock with pin bushing, the 350 will have 400 grain for 29" arrow shaft (weight to be adjusted by shorter or longer shaft by 7.8 grain / inch), while the 500 arrow (with a 100 grain tip) will weight just 334 grains (weight to be adjusted pending on shaft length by 6.1 grains / inch). That's a huge difference ( *66 gr* ) that will greatly affect speed and rebound of the bow which IMO will have a significant impact on grouping especially if the distance is more than 10 meters.

Awesome & Thanks :)

If i used 57 lbs dw for my target compound and then i use spine 380 for the arrow and the grouping so good, what happen if i used the same bow but using 500 spine arrow... can my bow be broken because the arrow is to weak...?

@WM-jy9dz

3 жыл бұрын

... the TAW (total arrow weight) per poundage should be always above 5 grains per pound, e.g. @62 pound the threshold is 310 grains. However, for a good arrow flight there is more to it, e.g. if you load up the front with a heavy insert and a heavy tip: this will weaken the dynamic spine. There is an app called qspine that comes in handy when playing around with all the parameters to built an optimal arrow for your individual poundage and your draw length. ... (I posted this accidently under @Wc WCGamer comment, but it was meant for your 😀)

@dalx4985

3 жыл бұрын

@@WM-jy9dz Wow... thanks.... 😊😊😊

Hi there! Im am just getting started into archery. Will a 400 spine arrow 31" long at 60lbs be fine?

@rickycoulter7794

2 жыл бұрын

Depending on your poundage

@blizzbee

Жыл бұрын

I guess they're a bit too weak spine for that lbs/length... pick your point wisely. Start by trying the 90-100 grain points or even lower.

Hi Steve. I have a question. If you are testing arrow spine for indoors. Why not shoot indoors. Eliminate the wind.

@blizzbee

Жыл бұрын

Convenience, I think

5:40 your heart beats 150 per min while shooting unless you are korean

Im just courios what would have been if he shot the 350s top and 500s middle.. i always see diffrences in my groups shooting vagas targets .. in addition those diffrences varry from end to end and day to day.. its the minnute change in angle wit body that can throw off your shot. Just courios..

I am shooting Easton axis 5mm 340 spine. 28 draw. At 62 pounds and they fly great. Best arrow I have shot. And I have fmj in 5mm 340 spine for hunting I thought they were good. Axis is a strong fast arrow.

@WM-jy9dz

3 жыл бұрын

the TAW (total arrow weight) per poundage should be always above 5 grains per pound, e.g. @62 pound the threshold is 310 grains. However, for a good arrow flight there is more to it, e.g. if you load up the front with a heavy insert and a heavy tip: this will weaken the dynamic spine. There is an app called qspine that comes in handy when playing around with all the parameters to built an optimal arrow for your individual poundage and your draw length.

@wcwcgarner2717

3 жыл бұрын

@@WM-jy9dz my Easton axis arrows are 420 grains. My fmj are 460 grains.

@WM-jy9dz

3 жыл бұрын

@@wcwcgarner2717 I notice that I added my response to the wrong post 😀 ... it was actually meant as a response to @D ALx comment ...😂

How much is that compound bow you are using?

@jeffrylotz138

Жыл бұрын

If you have to ask...

What is name this bow

What bow is that? PSE Lazer?

@capricornmagic63

3 жыл бұрын

Watch til the end.

@travistwwreck1535

3 жыл бұрын

Supra focus

Looks like you've been hitting the gym.

漂亮

My 350s look like a wet noodle leaving the bow

I'd say your bow isn't tuned to the heavy arrows. Doing it outdoors doesn't help.

@WM-jy9dz

3 жыл бұрын

and it is not only the weight difference (approx. 66 grains) but there is also a difference in diameter between the 350 and the 500 VAP (the 350 will point up now at launch), so how can he even expect that they would group all the same?

@YoureSoVane

3 жыл бұрын

@@WM-jy9dz Usually that difference in diameter is negligible, and given it's on the rest the important measurement is the radius it's even less so (totalling .007" in radius between a 350 and 500 X-impact, for example) so I don't think that's doing anything. However, given the difference in total weight and FOC, plus a slower shot, I totally agree.

WTH? 500's at 60#'s grouping like that. At that distance only maybe? Paradox is the player here? but that's usually gone in about 20 feet or so. Wonder if they group at 20 meters like that or what they group at 70 meters FITA? Try 70 m. and see about grouping.

@NPC-fl3gq

3 жыл бұрын

Archers paradox really only applies to recurve - compound negates the need to bend an arrow around the riser and the arrow will tend to "wobble" up and down rather than side to side due to the use of a release aid (though finger shooting compound is different).

@ArcherySuppliesLonsdale

3 жыл бұрын

Prior to the Nationals I built the 500's. I originally shot the 350's with the 50# bow and shot good scores, then I thought I how would 500's group. I felt they grouped better indoors. This was the first out shoot and any difference will be magnified at distance.

@x3roxide

3 жыл бұрын

@@NPC-fl3gq and even then, it's only applicable to bows shooting at or out of centre. Any bow which lines the arrow directly in the middle of the string, the "paradox" does not apply. Yes the arrow still wobbles back and forth sideways (for recurve) but this is purely due to a finger release.