If Micah was the rat, it was because he was approached by Agent Milton the same way Arthur was approached by them fishing with Jack. Only difference is, Micah took the deal maybe?

@N.E.TGaming

5 ай бұрын

I agree, think that's exactly what happened. Arthur: "you're a rat" Micah: "I'm a survivor black lung" He didn't deny it for one. And two, he claims he's a survivor because he knows that the Pinkerton's would catch up with Dutch's gang sooner or later, so he chose to take the deal. Still a dishonorable rat, but he did what many people still do to this day, throw their crime associates under the bus so they can get a pardon. If there was no imminent threat on the gang, he would have no reason to betray them

@buckshotkb3992

5 ай бұрын

Holy McMoly! I never connected that Micah never denied being a rat and instead, justifying it. After all these years. One simple reply, unraveling a mystery. You’re good my friend. Good detective work!

@Bestow3000

5 ай бұрын

@@N.E.TGaming Funny how he didn't deny it when Dutch isn't around but as soon as Dutch is there, he denies it. That's your answer right there.

@thepandasamurai228

5 ай бұрын

Micah Bell’s Plan Join The Van Der Linde gang just to earn profits as his own gang was disbanded Manipulate Dutch into robbing the ferry boat in Blackwater so that Micah could get rich and leave the gang and possibly start his own gang Work with the Odriscoll’s and The Pinkertons to capture a gang member so that most of the gang comes to the rescue and then they would be surprised with not just the Odriscoll’s but the Pinkertons aswell so that the Van Der linde gang is killed in one felt swoop. He does this as Dutch’s gang are losing profits and he see’s Dutch’s bounty which is very big and The Pinkertons are going to pay him very good for his efforts of capturing and killing most of the gang. He hears That the Van Der linde gang is going to rob a bank he gets content of this idea since his cut is going to be possibly massive so that then he could leave the gang with the profits he has accumulated. And possibly start his own gang after he left the van Der linde gang Get constantly into Dutch’s ear to go back for the Blackwater money he tries to manipulate Dutch saying is for the survival of the gang and freedom in another country. But actually he just wants the money for himself possibly stealing it all betraying the gang and stay in hiding for a while after he steals the gang’s heist. And again possibly starting his own gang. After Guarma Micah is scared for his life as the pinkertons and the authorities are closing in to the Van der linde gang harder than ever. He now works directly with the Pinkertons instead of just an informant of the Odriscoll’s that then gave the imformation to the Pinkertons but now he works directly giving them information on there plans and the state of the gang. Try to kill the Van der linde gang after giving the location of the Van Der Linde’s gang hideout in Lakay. He obviously is going to get substantial money for being an informant. Now that he has fully manipulated Dutch into believing him to be a very loyal enforcer and great friend he sees this as an opportunity to win more cash as he convinces Dutch on doing impulsive and destructive act’s and telling Dutch false narratives continuously saying that Arthur and John are traitors and that all of Dutch’s impulsive plans is the right thing to do. After the long awaited and planned train robbery succeeds he plans to take his cut of the money with Dutch and leaving the United States with him. He possibly will leave after he has successfully left the United States and possibly Force the boat captain to take him back while the gang stays in TAHITI. Because of Arthur’s interference his plan didn’t work out as he would have wanted so he instead went out to kill Arthur as Dutch fully believed him that Arthur was a traitor and try to gain a bigger trust within Dutch when he kills him. But instead of trusting him more he actually see’s Micah for who he really is and leaves much to Micah’s anger. But it worked out better for him actually as he stole every last penny of the train robbery regained the money from Blackwater has complete law immunity as he works with the Pinkertons and started his own gang, Just like he always wanted a lot of money complete law immunity and his own gang. But because he killed Arthur his past came back to haunt him which led to his death.

@titustavares335

5 ай бұрын

That’s exactly what happened. “Why didn’t you take it.” “Very funny.” Micah took it cuz he’s a “survivor.” And surviving means stabbing your friends in the back, apparently.

Arthur: Your the rat. Micah: Im a survivor black lung a survivor!! There you go. I took that as Micah confirming to be the rat.

@Spawnfreak

5 ай бұрын

That's not a confirmation at all.

@KaitouKaiju

5 ай бұрын

​@@SpawnfreakIt certainly not a denial. More like an excuse

@blu3d3vil97

5 ай бұрын

​@@Spawnfreak if your answer to "did u betray me?" Is "id do anything to live" U are confirming it U dont deny an accusation by naming yourself something that will literally do what u are accused of

@lordswaine5238

5 ай бұрын

​@@Spawnfreakit absolutely is. A Survivor will do anything to survive. That's what was insinuated.

@BasedR0nin

5 ай бұрын

@@Spawnfreakyea it is dipshit. How could you take it any other way?

If anyone recalls after returning from Gurma Arthur, Bill, Dutch, and Javier all looked rough and messy since they didn't have to time properly recover on their own. Micah, on the other hand, was clean and dressed and looked rejuvenated. Don't know how Dutch missed that.

@sebastianweissbacher8133

4 ай бұрын

great pickup

@chrismancini5645

4 ай бұрын

Good eye! I missed that! Also remember when they were attacked by the O'Driscols notice how Micah was nowhere to be seen. No only he was a rat but a traitor as well he was in bed with the O'Driscols as well he set Artur up to be kidnapped by the O'Driscols when Colm and Dutch met up. Like Colm said it was to kidnap Arthur and get rid of him hell even Colm said the police will get Dutch and be off his tail those are bargain words from Micah I bet.

@justsomeguy747

4 ай бұрын

Several others were also absent during the O’Driscolls’ attack. Micah could’ve been busy, as some gang members are occasionally. Additionally, it’s possible to that Micah, as the most experienced outlaw and one of Dutch’s closest allies, was sent before Arthur and the rest went on to track down the gang, and found them after being apprehended by Milton. Milton knew where the gang was because he followed Bill, not necessarily because of Micah. He had the resources to launch an attack or sneak right in and hold the gang’s women as hostages or arrest them for participating in criminal activities but did not because he didn’t know where they were until he tracked Bill. I doubt Micah was able to send Milton a letter in such a short time. They may have followed Arthur too and by that point they decided to wait for the rest, including Dutch.

@Muz_Tav

2 ай бұрын

Because he was the first to get back to camp and put his clothes on same with aruther he gets back before Dutch and puts on his clothes aswell

@docc_

2 ай бұрын

​@@chrismancini5645It was Pearson who came up with the idea of meeting the O'Driscolls

I really think that if Milton was almost CERTAIN that he would catch Arthur and he had him at his mercy, he wouldn't bluff and would tell him the whole truth, cuz he "knew" that Arthur wasn't going nowhere.

@rhileyisnear

5 ай бұрын

Strangely enough, last night before this video came out I thought about if he lied. But I realized he had no reason too. And since he "knew" Arthur wasnt going anywhere I guess it was an ego thing

@Spawnfreak

5 ай бұрын

If that's the case he wouldn't tell Arthur anything at all, he would just shoot him.

@capndikkens5790

5 ай бұрын

​@Spawnfreak clearly you don't understand ego very well. A man like Milton would absolutely gloat and brag before killing Arthur.

@alphahale7668

5 ай бұрын

@@Spawnfreak The gang has been a pain in his ass for too long and Milton's ego suffered a lot of hits, so when he had Arthur at gunpoint, it was a perfect opportunity to finally get back at him and rub it in Arthur's face that look, I finally go you, and guess how? One of you betrayed you. Dutch prided himself on having people be loyal to him, so to be able to tell at least Arthur, Dutch's right hand man, that Micah betrayed them, was something Milton absolutely took pleasure in.

@ryanwood6754

5 ай бұрын

also he knew Arthur had TB and he had the girls tied up. He just assumed nothing would go wrong and to be fair if Abigail hadn't gotten free Arthur would have his brains splattered on the walls

They spelled it out when the Pinkertons were running up on Dutch and Micah and he he kept trying to get Dutch to come over toward them. The devs made it pretty clear that they wanted it known that Micah was a rat and there wasn't much ambiguity about it. They also dropped the extra clue in chapter two about Dutch's bounty.

@gergopiroska5749

5 ай бұрын

Micah was a rat since Guarma Not chapter 2

@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457

5 ай бұрын

​@@gergopiroska5749There's also a theory that Micah was playing three sides: O'Driscoll's gang, Pinkertons (he might've saved them for the future) and Van Der Linde gang; He might've had Cleet and Joe as a plant in O'Driscoll's gang and had plans to reap bounty money for both gangs.

@SomeCanine

5 ай бұрын

@@gergopiroska5749 It's very simple. He showed his motivation in chapter two by keeping Dutch's wanted information. Later in the game when confronted, he became a rat. Try not to wrack your brain too hard at figuring out how this works.

@ryanwood6754

5 ай бұрын

yep. Micah was a rat playing everyone. He doesn't have loyalty to a single person. Men like him keep their eyes open for any opportunity. So the first sign he could rat out on Dutch and get something out of it he obviously would. I mean funny thing is we saw what happened to John after helping the Pinkertons so Ironically Micah (being far worse than John) would probably have ended up hung or shot himself since Pinkertons don't have good track record of keeping their word @@SomeCanine

@raiderslvnv351

5 ай бұрын

@@gergopiroska5749 When you find Micah hiding on the cliff and do his quest, after he leaves if you go back to his camp he has the bounty poster for Dutch that he tried to burn. He was thinking about collecting on Dutch's bounty back in Chapter 2.

When arthur & milton speaks together and he reveal that micah is the rat, he precise that he picked him up after their trip in the Caribbeans. How could he know they were there unless they really spoke with micah?? Even the gang had no clue they were in guarma until they came back. Milton knew they didn’t make it to tahiti, because if they would they wouldn’t be coming back like that. Edit: all that to say this minor detail makes me sure 200% micah was the rat. That’s the only way milton could know they were in the Caribbeans.

@Spawnfreak

5 ай бұрын

How could they have picked Micah up when Micah is at the Lakay camp before Arthur?

@Munancho_YT

5 ай бұрын

@@SpawnfreakMicah probably came a lot earlier😂

@arnoldnagy8562

5 ай бұрын

Maybe Levi or Fussar let the pinkertons know that the gang staying in Guarma.

@PiniutLEGIT

5 ай бұрын

Molly probably told him. True, she dies very early in Chapter 6, however she probably knew that they landed on a tropical island. She told Milton about who went missing and when she learned where they went, she also told him. Milton could simply just fabricate the fact that they picked Micah. Molly doesn't have a reason to lie, she's even drunk which makes it more believable she's telling the truth.

@saulgoodman2892

4 ай бұрын

they know that they were in guarma because fussar and his people sent word to america

There is no reason for Milton too lie in this encounter especially to a man he knows is going to croak soon. he has also never lied to the gang the entire game. Plus Micah is the only one who showed signs of being a rat being antagonistic towards everyone in the gang, he had a bounty of Dutch in his camp, the meeting with colm was stupid and an obvious trap plus he got dutch to abandon other members of the gang especially his most loyal at the end of the game. Milton also wouldnt need to drive a wedge Arthur disliked micah long before guarma

@seth1hades

5 ай бұрын

Milton wasn't lying to Arthur, he was lying to Sadie who would turn everyone against Micah for him eliminated two of his targets, he was planing on killing Arthur after all. But lying to Sadie vicariously and convincing her that Molly wasn't the real rat would sow seeds of destruction within the gang. Lets remember the betrayal was snitching about the bank, if micah wasn't picked up till after the bank heist then how is he the rat, what was his specific betrayal, it makes way more sense for molly to be that pathetic, especially since she said she was.

@wellauth

5 ай бұрын

he thought it was funny

@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457

5 ай бұрын

I know Cynic's theory might be a stretch, but it's not out of realm of possibility, considering what you said still doesn't entirely discount the odd details that Cynic pointed out.

@DashMatin

5 ай бұрын

micah just didn't give a shid about anyone but himself from the start of the game

@asurxh

5 ай бұрын

Bruh John and Abigail were the rats...how did John get caught/left for dead and not killed? How did Milton find Arthur at the river when he took jack "fishing" bc Abigail asked him to? How TF did Abigail get away when they caught her with Hosea?? They killed Hosea right then and there but they didn't kill her and she got away? Bc Abigail was working with the pinkertons and so was John...hell John even left the gang for a year no telling what he got into or if he came back to set up dutch Also let's not gloss over the fact that John came back and started working for the law and catching and killing his former gang members/ brothers. He literally started working for the law doesn't matter why he's a former gang member who was ok going fed for his family.. He always had it in him... The gang had multiple rats...it's crazy how ppl just gloss over how he gets caught and left behind and doesn't get killed and how they didn't kill Hosea and Abigail...they didn't kill her bc she tipped them off about the robbery and let her go so she could get more members caught.

I love the fact the van der linde gang pretty much changed the landscape of the entire region by the end of the game. you deal with the the most influential people in the world at the ball at some point in the game. Dutch killed Cornwall, Arthur kills Fussar and works with the mayor, you make sure colm hangs, Rob the biggest bank after the blackwater heist, took out two warring families at each other's throats for years and even took on the army with the wapiti Indians. I can only imagine how much chaos went down in big valley and beyond before blackwater. No wonder the whole country was looking for them.

@Inconvenience388

3 ай бұрын

Not to mention everything that came before, including Blackwater. Plus, in 1911, John destroyed the Mexican government and brought down the 3 remaining remnants of the Wild West down.

He absolutely was the rat. In Micah's words "I'm a survivor" a survivor will do anything to survive, anything.

The game only shows a rat wandering by on top of Mt. Hagen after John deals with Micha. I don't think it could be anymore obvious without the actual game developers screaming it in your face.

@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457

5 ай бұрын

He's not denouncing that, he's providing another way to interpret the story, because often what a story tells you or characters in them can be untrue in further inspection, it can be not as cut-and-dry as you once thought, it can highlight details that you might've not noticed or details that are straight-up left out.

@douglascarter2078

5 ай бұрын

@@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457 Usually it's just some moron overthinking things and making up BS to try to justify their own ignorant interpretation.

@justanobody1713

5 ай бұрын

I think the game fully intends to put you in the mindset of the characters you're playing as. The consequences you face as John and Arthur are the consequences of your gameplay decisions. At this moment, the devs wanted you to feel like John, wearing Arthur's hat and getting revenge even though Arthur would never have wanted that - and they doubled down on pinning you in this mindset by showing a rat, getting you hyped and ready to dome Micah. Which, you do, the consequences of which will be felt quite thoroughly by the end of the first game. Not everything is literal.

@douglascarter2078

5 ай бұрын

@@justanobody1713 so you are saying that the game is implying that John has the mindset of a rat at that point? That's why they show the rat on top of Mt. Hagen? That just sounds stupid. I'm well aware of art being nuanced, but yeah, sometimes things are extremely literal in there meaning. This isn't David Lynch here. Also, they show the rat after Micha is dead so it definitely isn't there to get you hyped to "dome" Micha. Pretty sure the rat scene was lifted straight from "The Departed" and put there so there wouldn't be speculation after the fact as to who the actual rat in the gang was. Like Freud said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." You believe whatever you want. If nothing else happy to see someone who obviously really enjoyed the game and story as much as you seem to.

@justanobody1713

5 ай бұрын

@@douglascarter2078 No, I am not saying John has the mentality of a rat you fucking retard. I'm not going to bother responding further since you can't even be fucked to read.

Two issues with Micah not being the rat: 1. He slits the throat of one of the Pinkerton survivors at Lackay to prevent him from squealing. 2. He’s the only one wearing a white suit at the St. Denis bank robbery. Everyone else is wearing dark clothes. This would allow him to stick out to the Pinkertons so as to avoid being targeted. This is all circumstantial I know, but I think he was the one.

@adnej6888

5 ай бұрын

the only problem with 2 is at the time he was not the rat only after chapter5 he became the rat

@craigsovilla6578

5 ай бұрын

The Saint Denis bank robbery is literally the only time in the story Micah wears white.

@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457

5 ай бұрын

Milton said that it was after 'Caribbean', meaning after Guarma.

@maulressurected4405

4 ай бұрын

There was more about the suit he wears the polar opposite of Arthur's clothes. Arthur has a black hat Micah has a white hat. Arthur has a blue shirt Micah has a red shirt. In the bank heist Arthur wears a black suit and Micah wears a white suite.

@KNedits1011

2 ай бұрын

It could be possible that Micah was a rat before the events of guarma since his first big robery with the gang was the boat at Blackwater bc Arthur states in his journel that it could be a trap bc how would the pinkertons exactly know that the gang was in Blackwater and the person who informed Dutch about the boat was Micah

In the cutscene of million showing up at the camp, Micah actually is there. I see it all the time in my gameplay. He is always next to Sadie lol

@Gabriel-ki7uj

5 ай бұрын

Million 💀

@jacobsucks

5 ай бұрын

@@Gabriel-ki7uj just wait until you see agent billion

@ExplorerDS6789

3 ай бұрын

They must have inserted him in at some point.

I highly doubt that Milton thought "If Arthur manages to leave I have to drive a wedge between him and Micah so I will lie and say that Micah has been feeding me information". Milton killed Hosea, and he opened fire on the gang in Lakay, Milton didn't plan for Arthur to leave that room alive. While I also have thought when Milton picked up Micah and your reasoning that the most likely time was between Lakay and Beaver Hollow is great. But I believe Micah searched out Milton for his own preservation. As he says to Arthur in the end "I'm a survivor". Micah would do anything to survive, so he looked up Milton. If it had been the other way where Milton catches Micah then he would have probably shot first and then asked questions (as referenced in the killing of Hosea and shooting at Lakay). Lying to Arthur at that moment doesn't make sense at all.

@theoutsiderjess4869

5 ай бұрын

There is no reason for him to lie in an encounter where he holds all the cards plus Milton already knows Arthur has tb even more reason he doesnt have to lie

@claytonveno3710

5 ай бұрын

@@theoutsiderjess4869 Not having a reason to lie doesn't always mean the person isn't lying. Also for all we know there probably could be a hidden reason or motive left ambiguous to the players.

@siimtokke3461

5 ай бұрын

@@claytonveno3710 Two things: 1) Yes, it's ambiguous who the rat is or even if there was a rat. There isn't a theory where everything makes sense. Every theory has at least 1 hole. And that's how R* intended. 2) The whole idea is that Milton chose you to say that Micah is the rat. It would have made much more sense if Milton didn't say anything about it. He steered the conversation to Micah being the rat. Everybody at the camp thought Molly was, so for them, it was case closed. So Milton telling Micah is the rat out of the blue when he wasn't is just pure chaos since his plan was to capture all of them. So what, Milton tells Arthur that Micah is the rat, then kills or captures Arthur so he wouldn't able to tell anyone?

@lordswaine5238

5 ай бұрын

The Survivor line is a dead giveaway for me. I said the same thing.

@claytonveno3710

5 ай бұрын

@@siimtokke3461 My point is that there isn't any concrete evidence that Milton was telling the full truth about how long Micah Bell's involvement with the Pinkertons stretches back. For all we know he may have been a rat before Guarma or even before the events of the game itself. We simply can't rely soley on Miltons testimoney because he is a clear sociopath with ulterior motives of his own and we don't really solid proof that Micah wasn't a rat before guarma.

I'm not gonna lie. Some of you "Micah's not the rat" fans are some of the most naive people in gaming. It's literally not up for interpretation whether or not Micah's the rat. First off, if the game wanted to paint Milton as a liar, any writer worth their salt would have foreshadowed that before his final confrontation. Second, the game DOES paint him as ego centric and self-righteous, which is a very classic villain archetype, and his speech to Arthur at the end of the game is another classic example of villianous gloating because of perceived victory. Micah, while for sure being nuanced in his own way, is set up as the ultimate foil for Arthur and John. He represents the worst of the gunslingers; selfish, vain, utterly ruthless, and cruel, much like low honor Arthur. The caveat is his disloyalty to anyone but himself, juxtaposed to Arthur and John, who are both willing to die in service of others. At the end of the day, Micah being innocent would serve no literary function in the story at large. How would it enrich the stories of Arthur and John? It would just make them look like a bunch of paranoid assholes who killed an innocent guy 😂. The story is about redemption, love, and loyalty. Who is the perfect foil to these themes? A character who embodies the complete opposite, Micah Bell.

@LTD1863

5 ай бұрын

Lol well said. I know they’re just trying to squeeze content out of a 6 year old game, but when I read titles like “Was Abigail the rat all along???” it makes me wonder if I played the same game as these guys. It’s not that deep. Micah betrayed the gang to save his own skin, simple and true.

@_Dev._

5 ай бұрын

actually this's more of a sensible conclusion to the question

@ryanwood6754

5 ай бұрын

Yep the better theory is that Micah wasn't just helping the Pinkertons but the other gangs too. Good example of that was the meeting with the O'Driscalls. Funny how they knew exactly where Arthur was (who Micah knew he needed to be removed since he had too much influence and strength) and Micah was basically using Pearson as the fall guy. They also didn't go save Arthur instead leaving him behind once again. Something Micah tried to convince Dutch of constantly. Either way I think Micah was playing his hand to whomever could give him the best deal. If Dutch could give him money and freedom in another country, Micah took Dutch, If O'Driscalls offered him money and a new gang or something, Micah went to them (or he just used them to get rid of Arthur), If the Pinkertons offered him a lighter jail time or freedom for the gang, Micah would help the Pinkertons etc. @@LTD1863

@vivious_

5 ай бұрын

really good comment

@yourmother9747

5 ай бұрын

Well said we’ll said, it’s totally up for interpretation though so thsi is a great theory but I still believe the most likely scenario is micah not being a rat!

SPOILER WARNING ⛔️ proceeds to make the title. “What if Milton Lied about Micah Being A Rat”

Edgar Ross going up the mountains to check on Micah after his death confirms it,he was one

Nah, they made it very clear that Micah was the one who snitched, the devs confirmed it, too. Milton doesn't have the insight into the relationships within the gang, he doesn't know that the gang is crumbling from within so much and who hates whom. And he has no reason to lie to Arthur, he's not planning to send Arthur back to the gang alive. When he tells Arthur that Micah was the one who talked, he is just rubbing it in Arthur's face, because he knows how loyal the gang is to Dutch (not that much at that point, but he doesn't know that), when he and Ross came to the camp earlier, he saw the loyalty and unity firsthand. But the gang has been a thorn in his side for so long, and now he finally has who he still thinks is Dutch's most trusted and loyal member at gunpoint and he just rubs it in his face that one of them betrayed them. He kidnapped Abigail because he knew someone will eventually come for her, he wanted to pick them off separately, it would be a lot easier than riding up on the camp right away. Kill one or two enforcers away from the gang, gives him a better chance against the rest of the gang. Molly wasn't the rat, neither was Abigail like some people like to theorise. Micah was.

@KingsMaker-yu6pq

Ай бұрын

Where is the part where the devs confirmed it?

@nyasiamccoy5928

4 күн бұрын

he lied because Sadie was there

@alphahale7668

3 күн бұрын

@@nyasiamccoy5928 He had no reason to lie, he was going to kill all of them.

@nyasiamccoy5928

3 күн бұрын

@@alphahale7668 if we go with that theory then how did the bank job get compromised , when Milton clearly said he picked up Bell after Guarma ?

@alphahale7668

3 күн бұрын

@@nyasiamccoy5928 Arthur said it himself at some point. They were making too much noise and getting sloppy. Half of their smaller jobs went to hell because they were being too loud and causing too much trouble. By the time they tried to pull the bank heist, they were wanted in numerous states, the Pinkertons were just a step behind them, they took the Saint Denis police on a chase through the whole city just a while prior when they tried to rob the train station, killed Bronte - the guy pretty much running the city, and now they tried to pull a daylight robbery in the middle of the day in the biggest city full of cops and Pinkertons. They didn't even need anyone to rat them out at that point.

10:16 depending on when you trigger this cut scene Micah is present. I’ve had him present a few play throughs. There are clues such as Micah’s camp having an older Dutch wanted poster and Micah being so adamant to have Dutch meet with Colm when he takes Arthur that point to Micah being an O’Driscole plant or at least collaborator. Especially him being locked up with and then killing that O’Driscole in strawberry. He and Lenny even being over there near the largest O’Driscole compound, Micah trying to get Dutch to reveal the location of the black water money multiple times in camp interactions in chapter 2. Most importantly that lone little rat scurrying past during American Venom. Micah was playing all sides, as he said many times, he’s a survivor. He has no real loyalty to anyone but himself. All of this along with a letter you find on the fat man Sadie kills in hanging dog ranch points to Molly having been sleeping with Colm to get back at Dutch and then when she was getting questioned about Dutch by Milton giving up Colm instead ensuring her release. I think the game provided more than enough direct and indirect evidence to prove Micah was the problem from the start. Combine that with the gangs inability to even remotely lie low in any situation and the way everything plays out makes total sense. Great video though man, I love your content.

@booniebound7793

5 ай бұрын

This letters and such I’ve never heard of or seen so thanks for that info.😊

@maulressurected4405

4 ай бұрын

There a couple missions where Micah talks about cutting people loose and late in Chapter 3 he starts planting the seeds of John loyalty.

I also like to believe that part of the reason why the Rhodes camp felt like it lasted longer was because Cornwall was funding the pinkertins to find the Vanderlinde gang but decided to take it into his own hands hence the Valentine shooting. Forcing Miltons investigation into where the gang was camped out to reset as they relocated before he could find out more. I like to think he probably spent some time searching west again as he thought they may have taken the chance to slip back to the west only for him to get word of Cornwalls wagons being attacked in Rhodes by people fitting the Vanderlinde gangs description and so he eventually found out where they were camped.

Micah's the rat. Only reason pinkertons found his body was because he was tryna set up Dutch to cut another deal. They weren't expecting a dead Micah they were expecting a dead Dutch. It's likely that Micah, had John not killed him, would have essentially been the one to hunt down Javier and Bill also. I feel John was the alternative because Micah got popped, but then again Dutch hints the reason he went to visit Micah was to kill him so who knows how it would've panned out had John not been there.

*Milton could had lied about Molly not snitching to protect her since he doesn't know she's dead, and since she basically not really a crimanal and from what I researched she came from a wealthy family and what not, and whats suspicious is the pinkertons were already waiting for them in Saint Dennis and that is how they caught hosea and that was BEFORE Milton would meet Micah when he said he spoke to him after they got from Guarma, so there had to be already a rat before Micah could had snitch or not...* 🤷

@jacobsucks

5 ай бұрын

it's not hard to believe the pinkertons just expected a heist to happen in saint denis considering that both a failed trolley station robbery and a shootout at bronte's mansion occurred not far before it, like arthur said they got sloppy and i don't think there needed to be a rat at that point for the pinkertons to find out about their plans

@abdulidris4819

5 ай бұрын

There was Pinkerton at Saint Denis coz Dutch killed Brontë which would have alerted the Pinkertons immediately

@maulressurected4405

4 ай бұрын

@@abdulidris4819 Yup the gang was sloppy, desperate, and not very subtle. Besides chapter 1 and 5 the Pinkertons are on their trail. Even Cornwall found them in Chapter 2.

@abdulidris4819

4 ай бұрын

@@maulressurected4405 yh

at 11:58 where milton says he'll give them to the count of five, yet changes his mind to just shoot up the cabin, I think he wanted to give them to the count of five as a signal for micah to slip out of the cabin, yet decides to just cross micah and kill everyone in the cabin.

I've been watching your videos for a while now, but this one sure earned the sub, keep up the good work man

@CynicGTA

5 ай бұрын

Awesome, thank you!😊

In the cutscene when aurthor confronts Micah, he looks at the Pinkerton’s and looks back without saying a word

Micah said it himself, he's a survivor. He sidled up to Dutch to show he's his best ally in case Arthur wanted him out, tried turning Arthur from Dutch to his side in case Dutch went sour on him AND snitched when it looked like the gang was starting to fracture (which was also his doing). Micah is a great villian and Rockstar made me hate a fictional character more than i could hate a real person lol.

This is something I always thought as a possibility, by hitting Arthur with this bombshell he perhaps knew the gang would likely destroy itself to save him the hassle, or at least create dysentery in the ranks

@lrkethomsen485

3 ай бұрын

Maybe, but I don’t think it makes sense to tell Arthur in an attempt to destroy the relations in the gang. Because Milton has no intention for Arthur to leave in that moment. Milton was going to kill Arthur if Abigail hadn’t shot him first.

Can't stop watching bros vids. Love rdr2's world so much and its story is just juicy.

the game itself places a rat next to micah's house in the american venom mission

What makes some people doubt that Micah is a rat, in the typical sense, is how on the nose it is presented. When everything points to an obvious conclusion we must start looking for holes as a litmus test of the theory, in universe we supplement a backstory to explain inconsistencies, but looking at those inconsistencies out of universe we note writing inconsistencies by the writing team. It may seem unlikely in a AAA studio, but it has happened in the past and will continue to happen. The nature of leaving a narrative open ended can lead to errors of consistency, or a lone wolf on the writing team may take their job of leaving story open may lead to those inconsistent results if the lead writer doesn’t catch any overt issues that work against the overall design they want… I have homework due, I’ve spent too much time on this. A deadline approaches quickly…

micah also antagonizes jack or cain going "missing" after he killed him

It had to be someone from the boat reck because Milton speaks of the Caribbean not even the gang knew where they where until they were back

@Razgriz0111

8 күн бұрын

Exactly! How would Molly have known? She wasn't around when any of them showed up.

congrats on 10k

Someone else pointed this out, but Milton was already at wits end killing Hosea and then trying to mow down the gang without giving them a chance to surrender, so it’s entirely likely he didn’t intend for Arthur to leave that room after their chat. Not only would if snuff out one of the gang’s soldiers, who could obviously be dangerous even while dying, but Milton could also justify it to himself as putting Arthur out of his misery. So if this is the case, then he has no reason to lie to Arthur.

@ryanwood6754

5 ай бұрын

EXACTLY! Milton gave them ONE last opportunity in the Bank heist to surrender, when Dutch did his usual plea deal crap it irritated Milton and he killed Hosea. Also if its between Abigail who for all they know is the camp whore (not being mean its just literally what they deem her role as in RDR1 and what they often called women in gangs back then) or the man who was part of gangs leadership and mastermind of the heist. I know me personally I would chase the mastermind. Its also evident they thought of the women that way when Sadie Adler (who is just as vicious and deadly as the men) was looked down upon by the law and other gangs as a "silly girl playing games" when in reality she could easily gun them down.

@justanobody1713

5 ай бұрын

You're thinking about it from the perspective that you are personally being given information and not that these characters are supposed to be human. It could be something as simple as wanting Arthur to mentally suffer that his gang is screwed and that there's a rat before doming him. "Ha-ha, got you, and your gang is full of rats and you're all dead! Night-night, scumbag!"

@maulressurected4405

4 ай бұрын

@@justanobody1713 Yup that's what I took from that interaction at that point he's won.

I always thought it was Dutch since the beginning and Micah joined in on it.

You see based on the way he dresses I thought that Micah was a member of the pinkerton's in deep cover. The game itself says he's only been riding with the Vanderlinds for only 6 months, uses a pair of fancy double action Revolvers,the mechanism of which are a recently new invention in the game world, based on the rest of the gang using Cattlemans and Schoffields both of which are a single action type of revolver. Plus his signature white hat as a method to show other agents where he is to avoid getting shot himself. Using this I believe he sees Arthur as the most skilled gunslinger in the group thus wants to be rid of him soon as possible.

games been out for six years and i just now learned there w as a letter to micah from his brother

Earned my subscription with this one. I’ve seen plenty of “Milton lied to Arthur about Micah” videos, but I appreciate the various new insights from the deeper character and timeline analyses. I’m still not totally convinced he was or wasn’t. I think it’s meant to be very ambiguous, because it fits right in with his character, but “Mr. civilization” Milton is unlikely to let a man who has murdered dozens get away and live by that point, after he’s given up on reasoning with them and decided then attempted to exterminate all of the gang . I think maybe 60% chance he was, but I think Molly is still 90%+ chance, she was desperate for something, anything, to change, and Milton was protecting her as a relatively innocent inside informant. The theories around Abigail are quite compelling, if say maybe 65% chance she was as well. I don’t rule out the possibility that all 3 of them were, with perhaps even more like Pearson. The gang was unraveling and people were getting desperate. Not everyone was as committed as Arthur to live for and die for the gang.

Cool video. Still, I think it’s wild asf how in depth people look into these conspiracies. Especially when most developers wouldn’t have thought that much to throw that many spins on it.

I enjoy your videos, thanks

I think that there’s no reason for Milton to have lied when he had Abigail and Sadie tied up and Arthur at gunpoint, it’s not like he was thinking of this grand contingency that would finally tear apart the gang by framing Micah as the rat. On top of that, it’s pretty likely that Ross and Milton offered Micah the same deal they offered Arthur in ch2

Micah was the rat this is stupid. Why the hell would Milton lie to a man he fully expects to kill in the next moment. Who would he be theoretically protecting in that scenario?

@justanobody1713

5 ай бұрын

He didn't intend to kill Arthur. He only went to shoot Arthur after Arthur attacked him. He captured the two women and most likely intended to capture Arthur too. It would entice Arthur to talk (maybe) if Arthur thinks other gang members were already ratting. Whether or not Arthur was going to croak "soon" is irrelevant because Arthur was clearly still able to talk. It's a manipulation attempt that costed zero dollars and zero cents for Milton to try.

@seansteele6532

5 ай бұрын

@@justanobody1713 You literally end that cutscene wrestling for the gun that Milton is slowly aiming towards Arthur's face until he was shot in the side of the head by Abigail. So you think without Abigail present he would get the gun to Arthur's head, convince him to surrender, let him go, all with the expectation that Arthur would return to camp, wrongfully accuse Micah so as to create what? Some disarray and confusion?

@justanobody1713

5 ай бұрын

@@seansteele6532 Do you not know how to read? You literally end that cutscene with a gun pointed at Arthur's face BECAUSE. ARTHUR. STARTED. THE. PHYSICAL. CONFRONTATION. The discussion about Micah occurred BEFORE THAT. Also, I literally didn't say anything about Milton letting him go and sending him back to camp. I don't know what comment you read, but it wasn't mine you fucking idiot.

@maulressurected4405

4 ай бұрын

@@justanobody1713 We don't know for sure since they already raided the camp to nab Abigail while Tilly escapes with Jack but no mention of Susan. Ross leads the charge during the final standoff which they arrived not very long after Arthur and John arrive.

@dqvmig3901

3 ай бұрын

He was going to try capture arthur, and the only reason he said that micahs the rat is IF arthur managed to escape he would cause the gang to turn on eachother. It's genius really

I believe the reason Milton told Arthur was cuz he wasn't going to kill Arthur cuz he didn't shoot him right away

In the cutscene of the last mission while Arthur John and Miss Grimshaw pick there sides you can see the pinkertons on horses in the background and you can also see Micah looking behind him and looking agent Ross and his men right in the eye. It could be possible that Micah was a rat before the events of guarma since his first big robery with the gang was the boat at Blackwater bc Arthur states in his journel that it could be a trap bc how would the pinkertons exactly know that the gang was in Blackwater and the person who informed Dutch about the boat was Micah

If you go back to Micah’s camp after the mission where you rob the stagecoach you can see Dutch’s wanted poster

It depends on the mission order that you do if Micah is present or not in the cutscene when Milton and Ross show up at camp

Micah was the rat, in american venom when u reach the cabin just before the cutscene plays u can see a rat on the ground running away, i always saw it as a little joke rockstar put there, and i personally take that as proof Micah was the rat

I honestly think Milton wanted to stir up trouble in the gang. I also feel like Milton knew Micah was cold blooded and could use that to his advantage.

@unspun1YT

5 ай бұрын

Milton meant to kill or arrest Arthur, why would he lie to a man that in his view wouldn't see the gang again.

@Tubeyou2343hhsg

5 ай бұрын

@@unspun1YThe hated Arthur poking fun at him similar to niko and jimmy niko says to jimmy ur a joke and the commission thinks ur a joke people do that to their enemies when their dien

@minikilla3568

5 ай бұрын

@@unspun1YT Milton even tries to scare Arthur and the gang literally at the start of the game. He wants them to get worried and restless so they make a move. It's better to divide and conquer than to fight an uphill battle. Thats just my opinion tho.

@theoutsiderjess4869

5 ай бұрын

​@@minikilla3568 except Micah showed signd he was a rat i wouldbt be surprised if Micah went to milton to save his own behind

@godzillazfriction

5 ай бұрын

​@@minikilla3568Arthur is also cold-blooded... your point literally means nothing in regards to Micah

I think he did talk to Pinkertons but didn't give whole truth. It's clear he cares just about himself, as a "survivor", as he called himself. But after Dutch killed Cornwall, he stood by his side and shot trough a whoooole lot of Pinkertons. Clearly with some surviving and telling Milton what happened. What could also been Milton's plan was that if he lied to Arthur that Micha is a rat, then killed him and Sadie, and let Abigail go, who just then "happened to hear it".

@maulressurected4405

4 ай бұрын

Micah needed Dutch. Dutch was the only person who knew where the Blackwater money was. Micah wouldn't just abandon that. 70,000 was a lot of money back then.

Nobody else could have snitched but Micah , I’ll entertain the theory though , maybe the gang was way too reckless and led the pinkertons right to them . Maybe the pinkertons had already known the gang was in lakay and waiting for the hierarchy to return . Man this game has so many questions UNANSWERED

@BasedR0nin

5 ай бұрын

Nobody else needed to snitch tho. Even Arthur says this in Annesburg. They got “sloppier than the town drunk”. A major theme of the game is the Wild West coming to an end and the “civilized” word encroaching all around them. I think it’s pretty clear Micah actually is the rat, but I think it would have been better to leave it more ambiguous because realistically they really didn’t need a rat at all.

@maulressurected4405

4 ай бұрын

@@BasedR0nin I think he's more then a rat, a opportunist a survivor. He's not going to die for the gang. He would be the kind of person to play all sides, and he wouldn't want to give the Pinkertons Dutch. He needed Dutch because he knew where the Blackwater money was.

I think bc how michah was acting during Arthur’s death and he was saying how he couldn’t wait to kill Arthur proves he was trying to dismantle the gang from the inside

i personally really like micha just cause of 2 or maybe 3 things his design and ruthlessness and maybe how evil he is

Also I always thought that you could only collect the Dutch bounty poster and newspaper clip from his strawberry camp as John, but when you collect it as Arthur he should have gone to Dutch with them

If you think about it, Micah even told Arthur where to stand during the meeting with Colm. So those guys obviously knew where to find him. Micah most likely knew that Arthur was his number one obstacle to completely having Dutch's ear. As for when Micah started informing, it's never really clear - all the meetings between the gang and the Pinkertons can be explained by their actions. They shoot up a place, the news gets back to the Pinkertons. They eventually find the camp. The gang moves, then they shoot up a place. Dozens of people dead in a firefight is definitely going to draw them like a magnetic to a lodestone.

Micah has a vengeful desire to “show people what happens when they mess with him.” Cuz he’s suffering. Deep down, he’s dead inside. Nothing but hateful vengeance. It’s true that he’s a rat. He “survived.” Like with Arthur, the pinkertons no doubt “offered him his freedom in exchange they did.” Arthur didn’t take it cuz his loyalty and family matter to him. Micah took it, cuz only Micah matters to Micah. But maybe he could’ve been friends with Arthur. They both have a close bond with their mounts, they’re both the best gunslingers in the gang, they both share the same philosophy of nihilism, but Micah is cynical, and Arthur is optimistic. No matter how hard he tries to be a “sour-faced idiot”

I just love that the story is so juicy we can all have different ideas and interpretations. This game is probably the best ever made so far.

There is dialogue of author talking to Tilly about a traitor they killed in camp prior to the game wonder if there’s any way to find who it was or what they did

Despite what we're told, lawmen felt that all collateral damage is the gunfighters' fault.

There’s this one part in chapter 6 I’m not sure if it’s after a certain mission or something but Jack will be standing outside of a cave calling for the dog and Micah will start telling him the dog ain’t coming back. Eventually he just tells the boy to scram and Jack runs off

I’ve witnessed Micah bullying jack by saying the dog ain’t coming but now get out of here or something like that yelling at jack

Micah was an informant since the beginning and was planted in the gang by the Pinkerton Agency , explains the blackwater ambush which i believe was the first thing micah informed the agency about, Arthur even said ever since micah started riding with them its been nothing but trouble and pinkertons

@yungk6043

2 ай бұрын

Im guessing there has been more than one rat. Milton says micahs been the informant since guarma.

Micah is loyal to himself and no one else. He'll take the path that benefits him most. Early on this was riding with Dutch, but after things kept going wrong and he got picked up, he absolutely turned his coat, but I expect he also planned on betraying the Pinkertons after the Army robbery netted so much money.

In the cutscene where Milton comes into camp Micah can be seen in the back walking towards his horse away from the gang

Another thing, judging by the look, speech and demeanor Micah has while incarcerated in Strawberry, I can only imagine how he would cave in and snitch at the end of Milton's threats in custody. only thing I can't wrap my head around is the time between the Blackwater massacre and Guarma

I just don’t think Milton would bother lying when he’s away to k him. I can confirm I have seen Micah push and annoy Jack, only happens before chapter 4 it seems

10:15 he is in this cutscene currently just played through it , this must be edited lol

@CynicGTA

4 ай бұрын

Its not

I don't believe that Milton had a reason to lie. At that point in the story Milton believes he is about to kill a sick Arthur and sounded like somebody gloating before they kill you.

@maulressurected4405

4 ай бұрын

Abigail and Sadie are right there in the room and its not like Milton was whispering to Arthur. He was gloating and rubbing salt in the wound.

Stalker hat is so good

There's a cutscene In van horn you can see Micah sneak off during it after he sees Milton

Even ingoring the giveaway at the end of the game, why would Milton lie to Arthur. Milton thought he had won and was gonna kill or atleast capture Arthur, there was no way for Arthur to go and tell everyone Micah was the rat. Milton did not plan to die to Abigail and Arthur......

micah told jack to ask authur why he has a stick up his you know what during chapter 3 in camp

Micah was a rat far earlier as he told the Saint Dennis police but he only went to the Pinkertons after gaurma

I'm pretty sure if Milton did get Micah, Micah likely would either given false information regardless of if he thinks he'll get away with it just to waste the enemies' resources, or complain and yell so much that the guards, either by Miltons order or not, free him as an attempt to follow him back to camp. Afterwards, Milton just says Micah has been a good snitch sense either from said guards successfully following him and not telling Milton, or just as an attempt to get Micah shot in the event that someone in the room escapes to camp.

1. the “im a survivor” line 2. the rat outside of where hes hiding during american venom idk man it seems like its there

Milton had no reason to lie . He thought he was going to kill Arthur then and there. That’s normally when you spill the beans.

Micah is the rat canonically

"Give them to the count of five, then give 'em everything- actually let em have it".

I always found it funny how even in the final battle with Micah, he's insisting that you're the traitor and your sickness is deluding you. He could just be buying into his own bs, a good liar keeps the facade up 24/7 and even believes it themself somewhat. And Dutch was lurking around so maybe it was to confuse him and save Micah's skin, which it ultimately did. But you have to wonder. It feels so hamfisted that the sniveling, racist, bully, dogkiller, who physically resembles a rodent, is the _rat._ Rockstar feels too clever for that. Those are also things you would say if you genuinely didn't know who the rat was, and the gang's second in command "top guy" suddenly started acting completely different and undermining the leader at every turn. People are complicated, Dutch is complicated, Williamson, Arthur, Strauss etc are complicated. Micah is a sniveling bastard but he's also an OUTLAW. He is the most outlaw-like of the entire bunch. He denies going to the police to the bitter end. Molly, Abigail, and plenty of others had good reason to screw the gang over at times along with the gang drawing aggro from every direction, it could have been a death by 1000 cuts. Yet narratively all the sins get placed on the "satan" character, "if only they never met Micah none o this woulda happened!!" It just can't be that simple it's so freaking lazy

@greyblenaut

5 ай бұрын

I think this is the source of a lot of theorizing. You got this great villain in the middle of this emotive, nuanced story, and they sort of forgot to add his nuance (or rather, its there, but its really really easy to miss). I'll still stand by that even without Micah the gang would have imploded no matter what, the Pinkies were onto them from even before Blackwater

Finally someone made a video on it

The only reason I could see that Milton would lie about it is maybe to cause disorder in the gang (even more) but that would mean Milton know that they are falling apart which he really couldn't know about

I reckon Trelawny was coerced or had his family threatened inot giving information, since he lived in Saint Denis it wouldnt be hard to Milton to find out

20:00 or maybe milton just wanted to toy with him, maybe it wasnt that he considered arthur would escape

18:00 Molly was the only one not there maybe she really was telling someone or she was out drinking

When Micah gave the new location for the gang to move and it was in that open field, that's how you knew he was a snitch.

Well let's think. In one of the end scenes during the credits Ross and someone else (PINKERTONS) litterally come to micahs camp

Arthur looks crazy with a beard that long😂

One thing is how could Micah have the time to rat? He is always in camp or surrounded by other members like Bill or Dutch. He is present at most missions in chapter 6, and they didn’t really need a rat with how many people the gang was killing and robbing at that point

Im not sure if he physically pushes jack around but i have seen him make fun of jack and talk bad about his parents to him

I just thought of something. Milton said he sweated Molly a few times. Maybe that's how he was able to find their camps by following her after she was released.

There’s one thing that completely confirms micha is a rat at the before Arthur says he’s a rat micha stares at the pinkertens so if he wasn’t a rat then he would have said watch out pinkertens but he didn’t.

I think in regards to why milton opened fired on everyone including micha is because compared to his conversion with aruther (despite him also being an outlaw) you can tell arthur is more mentally stable than micha so i dont think milton would of felt so bad if michar did get hit in that crossfire. But thats just my theory.

Yeah I mean why would Milton say that unless he wanna start a civil war inside the gang. I think he lied but that's just me.

What if Charles was there during the showdown between Micah and Arthur

@TheAston316

5 ай бұрын

Micah and Arthur both die

@FDav-kl3ww

5 ай бұрын

He probably died, cuz he ain't that fast with a gun

@chancellor1055

5 ай бұрын

@@FDav-kl3ww they didn’t immediately start shooting tho

@Drexzzz4

5 ай бұрын

​@@chancellor1055still tho Micah bell is almost quick as Arthur tho if Charles came and Micah bell saw him knowing Micah he would have just pulled out his gun and shot Charles in the head

@chancellor1055

5 ай бұрын

@@Drexzzz4I meant if he was already in camp when it happened like miss Grimshaw (I don’t know her first name)

I still think Micha is the rat, but also Molly. When Arthur was going to save Abigail, I believe agent Milton had no reason to lie, because he didn’t expect to die there. I think he wanted to spit in Arthur’s face and reveal the truth, but Molly could still be the rat, as well as Micah, because Molly still could have ratted about the bank, and Micah after the Caribbean

He is the rat molly was not present in the camp after the guys got back from guama and hadnt been there for quite sometime according to the rest of the camp. So there is no way she could have told the pinkertons where they were, they only showed up when Micah appeared.

I always thought the timing was weird, it would make more sense for him to be a rat before the bank robbery.

Micah can talk to Sean all the way back in Chapter 2 where Micah says something with a double meaning where one meaning is an insult but the other confesses Micah's desire to kill Arthur. Micah says Arthur's weakness is his aversion to/inability to understand metaphor. Sean says it's Arthur's strength, actually, because, "I know too many people gone and died for a bloody metaphor." To which Micah replies, "Well, that won't be old Arthur's problem," and not at all in a jovial way. It was deliberately menacing, through gritted teeth. He knows Arthur won't die because of 'metaphor' either because he thinks he's too stupid to follow one, or because he already has an idea of what WILL kill Arthur, him or Colm.

Micah genuinely respected arthur and dutch but hes more ruthless than anything which is why he betrayed the gang: to survive. He knew the gang was going nowhere

I always said Milto said Micah "was a good boy" to plant the seed of mistrust & dissent within the gang. United they stand, divided they fall. The gang would have been better off with just Dutch, Hosea, Arthur, John, Charles & Micah

The reason gangsters and criminals call people who snitch “rats” is because a rat will do anything to survive even giving up loyalty and brotherhood micha straight up admits it during his fight with Arthur and I honestly think Dutch knew about it too because he didn’t turn on micha

The Amos Bell letter is chilling...