That settles it!!! N. T. Wright pours the tea first and THEN the milk! We can all go home now. ☕

Thank you for connecting apostleship to the narrative in Isaiah 49-55. So illuminating to hear particular passages in the one story of God that continues to this day. We so need reconciliation.

So good. The more I read this verse and the surrounding context the more clear it is that Paul is highlighting his vocation as a representative of God being true to what he has promised to do through Abraham. Thank you for seeking to be true to the text, and not confined by confessional loyalties. I love how you show the "rootedness" ( I think I just made up a word?) of Scripture in the historical and covenantal unfolding of God's saving work. Thank you and am enjoying these theological snippets! Like a healthy snack!

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

So glad you're enjoying this series! And, three cheers for the 'rootedness' of Scripture!

I appreciate the emphasis on the context. I am greatly challenged by this in Paul. Paul faced much rejection even from those whom he had converted. Yet Paul calls us to imitate him in multiple places (1Cor. 11:1; Phil. 3:17). The cross it seems is a window into the love of God, a path for disciples, and a stumbling block to us all when we prefer to pursue personal glory. Thanks again.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Good words-- appreciate the images of a window, path, and a stumbling block into the Jesus-shaped life and ministry in which we live and participate.

I am happy you mentioned what true apostleship looks like: it looks like humiliation, getting beaten up, carrying a cross, and being nailed onto it. It's meant to be difficult, and we in the 21st century want our religion to be easy and fun. Apostleship is about dying to self every day.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Yes, the call to embody God's faithfulness to the covenant can often follow the way of suffering. What aspects of 'dying to self' are particularly difficult?

@maureenmuggleton5145

Жыл бұрын

Yes !

@autumnhardenstine8032

Жыл бұрын

@@NTWrightOnline I counter with, what aspects of' dying to self' are not difficult. For me I am challenged in many small ways every day. Today I went to the gym and there amid the sweaty bodies of countless others, many in marvelous shape, I caught a glimpse of my overweight, lumpy body struggling to keep my feet going on the cross-trainer. I felt a flash of self-anger, disgust at how I could possibly have begun inhabiting "this" body, and with renewed energy I pushed forward into my workout - avoiding the mirrors. Fact is, I was reducing myself to a body. I was holding that body to be the sum total of who I am. I was elevating a physical situation to a level of importance it does not have. I was actually exhibiting a lot of pride in doing this. Dying to self would look a lot more like remembering that my real self simply inhabits this physical body. Stay healthy and then get on with God's call to love others. Dying to self would be all about others not me! Dying to self is about taking myself out of the center of my "universe" and putting God in that center where God belongs. None of this, it seems to me is easy - ever!

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Well said, and thank you for sharing openly with us. Many will resonate with the experience you described and feelings of self- anger or perhaps even frustration and anguish in the daily dying to self. There are sometimes no words, but we hope to offer a space to listen and be seen, and in this way to carry one another's burdens. You have pointed us wisely and humbly to taking taking daily inventory of oneself, the emptying of pride we all must do, and re-centering and reorienting around God-- not easy, indeed.

Wow! This makes sense of a phrase I hadn't figured out. I'm compelled, again, to be helpful in a kingdom way, specifically, to facilitate solutions for individuals among the homeless population.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Glad to hear you were encouraged! Was there a specific 'a-ha moment' you had?

Thank you Dr Wright so you've done for your life your books have literally changed my life over the past 5 years. These devotions ending with a blessing though have been spiritual food like none other! Thank you for all that you do and have done and may God bless you richly as you continue to proclaim his word to the world

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

We are so glad to hear it and many thanks for the encouragement!

I was glad I found this clip since it sums up Wrights interpretive sense of righteousness with a paraphrase which is patently not Scriptural

Thank you sir

I listened to this and thought about the "apostles" of some of the big new churches and how they have become millionaires through their "ministries." I love reading Paul's epistles and wish I was a bit more like him... except for the suffering part! 🤣 Paul suffers for the gospel, the other apostles suffered for the gospel; stonings, crucifixion, beheading, exile. All of the apostles suffered for Christ... none of them got rich! I am not a fan of suffering and trials (been through a few!), but I would rather that and be with Christ than be rich and go the way of world. Thank you Professor Wright... I love listening to your work!

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

We're glad you're enjoying this series. And, yes it is certainly a challenge to learn Paul's way of contentment-- whether we're someone in a community of abundance or in great need (though for different reasons, of course!)

So good, thank you.

We're the righteousness of God in Christ the same way when you offer a burnt offering, you become the righteousness of the lamb. We are exactly as righteous as God in Christ because Jesus became our sin on the cross. Jesus died to imputed sin so that we can live in God's imputed righteousness.

@markwilkinson2664

Жыл бұрын

But the lamb offered up does not receive our sin imputed to it. That would render the offering ritually impure and would rightly be rejected by God. Rather it is the lamb's substitution as a 'sinless' version of the person ascending to enter God's presence there, and its sinless blood that covers/washes our sin and purifies the temple for God to dwell among His people here. Christ never loses His righteousness even on the cross.

Appreciate being challenged again, Tom. But it seems to me that the more natural meaning of 2Cor 5:21b is why the apostolic message tells us we can be ‘reconciled to God, as in the first half of the verse - because the Messiah was made sin for us so we might be made the righteousness of God. That is why we can ‘receive the grace of God’ (6:1)

Amen.

Thank you, doc.Wright, for your wisdom and insights. I have been very blessed by your commitment to the scriptures. I am still figuring out what you have explained in this verse, to "become in Christ the righteousness of God". Is that what Paul means by salvation? Is it the same thing of being part of the Kingdom of God? Do you mean that "righteousness" is about to be in the covenant? I think from your explanation I have a good base to develop my studies. Thanks a lot. May God continue His Good work in you and through you.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Sounds like you're on the right track. In many places, Prof. Wright explains how Paul (and the ancient world in general) used that word we translate 'righteousness' as related to social categories of belonging in at least some sense. So there is a way in which 'righteousness' has to do with 'being part of the Kingdom of God' and 'in covenant' as you said. We have a two-part course on Galatians that dives MUCH deeper into the details of this question. I think you might find it helpful. www.udemy.com/course/an-advanced-study-in-galatians-part-one/?referralCode=AED688A4FAF60EB2B249

This makes me think of marriage and why God is so adamant about faithfulness to our spouse even to the point that if we divorce, we must remain single or else be reconciled to them. Is that because he wants followers of Jesus to model his own faithfulness to the world - and a clear way of showing that is by remaining faithful to our spouse?

Christ became the sin offering for us. The trespass offering of Leviticus is referred to a few verses back. “Not imputing their trespasses unto them.” Then comes the peace offering. “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.” Then in verse 21 the sin offering. This offering is for sin in us by very nature while the trespass offering deals with sin on us or sins of committal. If you wish the meal offering is seen in the verse too. “Who knew no sin.” His life was absolutely perfect for He IS incapable of sin. Note the Bible never speaks of the righteousness of Christ being imputed but the righteousness of God. The righteousness of Christ is His righteous life. The righteousness of God is our righteous standing. I fail often to walk as Christ walked but my standing in the righteousness of God never changes.

NLT Pls

It's fascinating to see how the 1881 Revised Version's rather clunky and unnatural wording ("we might become the righteousness of God") has become the standard way of handling the verse even in translations that are supposedly meant to be more accessible to a general readership than the long-standing Tyndale tradition (see NIV, NAB, CSB, NET, CEB). Even the New Jerusalem Bible is content to keep it intact, except for replacing "righteousness" with "uprightness." I suppose the committees may be afraid to take a stronger interpretive stance on the clause's meaning, as you ("we might embody God’s faithfulness to the covenant"), the New English Bible ("we might be made one with the goodness of God himself"), the New Living Translation ("we could be made right with God"), and the Good News Bible ("we might share the righteousness of God") have.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Do you have a translation you prefer most for this text?

@MAMoreno

Жыл бұрын

@@NTWrightOnline It is certainly a tricky one, and it depends largely upon the parallelism implied by the verse. God "made [Jesus] to be sin," and in a similar way, God "made us to be righteousness" in Christ. So we must first unpack the initial claim before we can consider possibilities for the second claim. The language of 2 Corinthians 5.21 immediately calls to mind Paul's statement in Galatians 3.13: Christ "became a curse for us." So too, we have Paul's earlier words to this church in 1 Corinthians 1.30: Christ "became wisdom from God, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption." Three possibilities spring up: Christ is the recipient of these things, Christ is the agent of these things, or Christ is the representation of these things. In regards to sin and a curse under the Law, the first option is certainly a possibility. In regards to divine wisdom and righteousness, the second option is viable. But only the third option allows for all of these statements to be coherent. Thus, Christ represents the sinner cursed under the Law, despite not being a sinner cursed under the Law. Then Christ represents the gracious acts of God extended to his people. So too, the "we" of 2 Corinthians 5.21 represent the righteousness of God in some fashion. In the context of 2 Corinthians, the "we" pronoun typically refers to Paul and his associates, who are Christ's "ambassadors" or representatives according to 5.20. As such, the language of "embodying" God's righteousness is as good a translation as any, and it's far more likely the correct meaning than the one found in the NLT.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing these theological reflections with us!

I see. Essentially, N T's point is that Paul is using something like the royal "we" here to refer to his apostleship and other co-workers with him. But Paul is always rhetorical, and is it not possible that while he is yet again defending his apostleship, and driving home the new covenant in light of old covenant terminology, that there is in fact another level of meaning, and that he is actually saying what the Greek says--that in Christ is a divine transaction of substitution? Certainly Paul has in mind the many sacrificial typologies of the Law along with his echoing of Isaiah and the Psalms, the more clearly Messianic passages. In any case, wouldn't we have to affirm that to be placed in Christ is to have the very positional righteousness of that status, whatever those implications are? But, in context, N T has a good point. I just can't help seeing Paul as more of a weaver and a dodger.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Yes, there is much that could be unpacked further here. Perhaps, as you noted what is in view in the immediate context is about embodying God's covenant faithfulness and our position--located in Messiah's family--to receive the promises to and through God's new family.

@duncescotus2342

Жыл бұрын

@@NTWrightOnline Thank you so much for that reply! As "the Hebrew of Hebrews" Paul must have had in mind the promises, the very ones Peter mentions but sadly doesn't enumerate. I guess we will have to be content to be "partakers of the divine nature!"

What version are you reading, please?

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

It is the Kingdom New Testament.

@julieamos86

Жыл бұрын

Thank you. This version isn't on bible gateway. Is it online elsewhere? Really enjoyed your lectures on Romans by the way. Blessings.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

It's on Bible Gateway as New Testament for Everyone (NTE). (The earlier publication title)

@julieamos86

Жыл бұрын

Thank you.

Pretty new to the varying views on apostles, so please forgive me for the likely ignorance on this. I'm having trouble figuring out how this passage would apply to me (not having a church office) then if it's about apostleship specifically. Maybe that was stated and I missed it? It seems like the interpretation would be pretty different depending on what you think about apostleship and potential succession to that office/ position. I'm not saying this in terms of whether I should expect every bishop specifically to be beaten (although not to be surprised if that does happen). As an aside, I'm genuinely trying to understand the traditional positions that hold to apostolic succession as continuing today. I hope this doesn't offend anyone. I've honestly been trying to seek out varying perspectives on this... seems very difficult subject with a lot of pain and history. God give us and me grace and discernment on this topic 🙏

@michallindsey9934

Жыл бұрын

I see in other replies that we are called to be like Paul, but it still does seem very muddy depending on your view of apostleship and its nature today.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Really good question, and you're right about the varying views on this topic and the humility to needed as we're thinking and theologising together. One way to think about the text of 2 Cor 5:21 is specific to the 'apostolic mission'. However, the following chapters begin to make the shift to how we are to become more imitating of those leaders. We might use Paul's view of himself as a 'type' of person and that we are sent in various ways and contexts of trying to live and lead others in the way of Jesus as King. Here, Paul is an example, not that he is the exemplar apostle, but an example of a serious representative of King Jesus. We learn by his example, not with reference to his 'apostolic calling'.

If the uploaded of this reads this I am confused and have a question.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

You can post your question in the comments.

@faultycracker7805

Жыл бұрын

@@NTWrightOnline I was gonna bur its too personal. I started typing and gave up. I am just really struggling with what you talked about but... gee, never mind. Thank you for responding though. God bless.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Another option would be to send an email to ntwrightonline@gmail.com

Did Jesus become sin or BARE our sins? Big difference. 1 Peter 2:24 KJV Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 2:24 Peter paraphrases lines from Isa 53:4-5. by his wounds you have been healed. The healing here, as sometimes in other Jewish sources, is probably especially from sin (cf. v. 25; Isa 57:18-19). I really hope that you can answer because I'm a little confused as to your interpretation.

@NTWrightOnline

5 ай бұрын

Thank you for your question! While N.T. Wright is semi-retired and not actively monitoring this KZread channel, our discussion community on Admirato.org has engaged in many of his online courses and could provide valuable insights. Feel free to join us on Admirato and post your question there: www.admirato.org/products/communities/discussion. Looking forward to seeing you there! ~Charleen at N.T. Wright Online

Hmm, sorry, but I am having problems receiving this.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

How can we help?

Isn't it a very inconsistent speech, with the Bible passage and an irrelevant topic? If any of you think differently, then I wanna ask a few more questions: > What's the point and meaning of 2 Cor. 5:21 itself? Is he only talking about the point of the context rather than that of the chosen text? > Is the pronoun ('us', 'we' here in v.21) exclusive (refers to Paul and his team only) or inclusive of the church in Corinth? We notice the 1st person pronoun (we, us) in v.20 is exclusively Paul and his team, excluding the church in Corinth.

@NTWrightOnline

Жыл бұрын

Paul is certainly speaking of himself and his fellow apostles about the 'way' of apostleship. But Paul also urges believers elsewhere to become like him in the way he lives the 'in Messiah' life. Thus, by extension, we model faithfulness to God's covenant to others by acting as Paul does which is the way Jesus acted: self giving and self sacrificing.