Hey all, I focused pretty much entirely on highlander and prolander since they both aim to be mainstay competitive formats. In retrospect I wish I had mentioned others such as 4s, ultiduo/trio, bball, or even pyro dodgeball as they're all competitive gamemodes in every sense of the word but are usually more niche, smaller gamemodes. In any case just know that there is more to TF2 than just 6s, highlander, and prolander and check out the other formats if you're interested!

@saihtama

Ай бұрын

I actually would like to know what you think of mge or even duos :3

@jaemotoo

Ай бұрын

You should do a video about those other formats as well. Some people may like to hear more about them

@jaemotoo

Ай бұрын

@@ammi5311 exactly haha

@Grapevin

Ай бұрын

Heartbroken that you would leave out the greatest format of all time, 4v4 PASS Time

7:05 I think a more accurate way to say this is you are "expendable". Sure, dying and losing that pyro engi or whatever class isn't desired, but usually they are the classes dedicated to jump into the meat grinder instead of your power classes. Yes, Engineer on Product is mostly just snipers little bitch boy who follows him, but he's also the player that walks straight into the enemy team so that the demo shoots HIM, not your demo. I'm a heavy main in adv, and a common call I'll make is "Im dying for us".

@blacksmithgames8739

Ай бұрын

I was literally like "I watch a lot of an Advanced Heavy who talks about some moments in maps where playing to die does wonders for your team", and here you are. Legitimately thank you for your map reviews, you've been a godsend for solo research on Heavy. Playing to die is actually a big reason why I like HL so much. Knowing that you can just shrug off a desth if the situation demands it, ironically, feels freeing. Obviously don't feed, but those moments where you chuckle and go "oh boy, you just wasted three rockets on THIS guy? You made big mistake bub."

@him2743

Ай бұрын

So, meatwall?

This comment sort of applies to the past few videos on the meta, but don't forget 6s also mandates its meta, just more subtly. Most of the restrictions make sense and create an incredibly fun and deep format but it's not some kind of pure default TF2, the current class lineup is "optimal" because the format was restricted to create faster, more interesting gameplay. Symmetrical gamemodes (where generalists excel), banned weapons to prevent heavy mobility and engie turtling and alternate mediguns, unequal class limits, etc. You can say "heavy is allowed in 6s, he's not run because he's bad" but the format is almost exclusively 5cp maps with no whip or old GRU or fists of steel allowed; if GRU got buffed and full time heavy became popular many players would call for it to be re-banned. I don't believe there would be the same "optimal" lineup if gunboats and escape plan were banned, jarate and wranger were allowed, attack/defend maps were added and medic had a class limit of 2. No-restriction 6s never got to fully develop a meta but it seemed closer to prolander class counterpicking with vacc medic, double demo, phlog pyro, etc.

Some minor corrections about things you said: Scout in prolander isn't used on stopwatch defense by some teams, usually being switched for an engineer. However scout is still really good obviously so teams do use it on defense. Technically modern HL doesn't exclusively play payload and koth because cp_steel is played. Getting 2 kills in highlander has a lot of different value depending on what classes you killed. If you killed a engineer and pyro that accomplishes very little. Killing a heavy and soldier is decent value but isn't game changing. Killing a sniper and demo means you pretty much win automatically.

@switZ7Q

Ай бұрын

I disagree with Pyro and engi not being value picks, the only pick that I could even consider being not valuable is spy and maybe Scout. Because if you're playing on offense, the engi and Pyro pick are actually the most important ones since you don't have to deal with a wrangled sentry and you don't have to deal with losing ground to airblast

I feel like part of the reason also why a lot of people gravitate towards highlander isn’t only just the fact that it inherently has 1 of every class, but that the 6’s combat classes have a higher skill floor, which can be intimidating. I remember my first competitive game was playing heavy in a Pug just because it felt like i couldn’t do TOO bad and wouldn’t be made fun of

You briefly touched on it in this video, but I truly think that game mode matters as much as, if not more than format in determining a meta. I think a lot of your explanation of 6s as the default, neutral format where other formats have to mandate classes is true, but it's just as true that 5CP pretty much mandates mobility, while asymmetrical modes allow for more variety in skillset. 6s Gravel Pit, as controversial as it was back in the day, opened up a lot of opportunities for defensive classes. I do think that the way 6s ended up is a lot of fun but I don't love the framing of it as anything other than manufactured for what people wanted to play.

What I'm hearing is "Highlander, but we trade Sniper for Demoknight" is a viable format?

@fangrowls6336

Ай бұрын

Funny but yeah the solution would be to limit sniper power and make him effectively a support class for 1 specific target elimination, kind of like spy, like he should be

@vyor8837

Ай бұрын

@@fangrowls6336 Ah yes, because he can go invisible, disguise as other people, see opponents health...

@jollygrapefruit786

Ай бұрын

​@@vyor8837all of that is completely useless compared to 150 damage uncharged headshots every 0.2 seconds.

@vyor8837

Ай бұрын

@@jollygrapefruit786 .4 seconds if you're a bot. No one is a bot.

@PearoIGuess

Ай бұрын

​@@vyor8837 "Their med has 67% uber" vs "Med down" from across the map

okay hear me out, 6s with a class limit of 1 across the board, and we just ban sniper already. As a highlander player mainly, sniper is 100% less fun to balance a meta around than demoman or medic and 6s always had that advantage. All formats, honestly maybe even 6s itself, would benefit from just getting sniper off the character select screen.

I feel like the argument you made in the first part of the video is flawed. Yes in highlander and prolander you are forced to play suboptimal / less impactful classes because of what feels like arbitrary class restrictions, But 6s has just as much "arbitrary" restrictions! As such calling 6s the more "natural" or "obvious" format when the whitelist, class limits and map pool are all setup in a very particular way to enable the current meta feels wrong to me. The meta is what it is BECAUSE of the ruleset, not the other way around. So the question we should be asking is: what set of articial limitations should we impose such that we get a meta which is the most FUN, not the meta which is the best in every situation or which is closest to what Valve intended. 6s still is the better competitive game mode in my opinion but it is not any less artificial than highlander or prolander...

@St4r_Str1ker

13 күн бұрын

Spitting facts

Just a couple of things from a Highlander player: - 5CP was played last (in EU) about 2-3 years ago - Attack/Defend is also played, along with Payload and KOTH. However, it is mainly only cp_steel. Other maps have been tried but it's basically only ever been cp_steel in ETF2L. - With regard to "kills matter less", I 100% agree in some sense, that being the natural idea that the proportion is smaller. However, in Highlander it's less the number of kills, but instead the quality of kills. If you are killing the sniper, demo, or medic, that is often enough to push off (9v8 or 8v8) because these classes are so impactful. So it's class advantage is more prevalent in Highlander than 6s. Not to say that it doesn't exist in 6s, of course it does, but killing a single soldier or scout in 6s gives you player ad more than class ad. In Highlander, you basically spend half the game trying to get class ad by killing the sniper, especially as either sniper or spy. - I 1000% agree with playing vs sniper is just not fun. Personally, I think Highlander would play better 8v8 with no sniper, but that kind of defeats the point of Highlander. If Prolander was 7v7 (or 6v6) with Class Limit 1, apart from Class Limit 0 for sniper, that would also be really nice. In Highlander, you kind of just have to feed to the sniper in some sense, but keep your medic safe and hope you can counter with the space you create by all peeking at the same time. Pretty good summary of the alternative game modes though :)

i wish i could get into highlander it seems like a lot of fun but holy shit nobody ever does pugs that's a big reason that i think 6s is so dominant (not that i think that's necessarily a bad thing, i love 6s) but it's just so much easier to get into 6s because of how many discord servers, tutorial videos, live streamers, etc. there are

@boinqity4621

Ай бұрын

also i've played some late night pugs on payload and attack defend, and i can confirm that it isn't the best, but to be fair those games were a mix of nc players like me all the way up to main lol

Highlander is basically a sniper 1v1 with 16 other side characters. I'm more surprised they havent considered an 8v8 and just ban sniper entirely to do experiments.

@rainbowpavement

Ай бұрын

they have done this before it lead to weird engineer holds airc

@thelamb8213

Ай бұрын

​@rainbowpavement no matter what it is its tf2 without sniper how can this be worse, that's engineers getting to do something relevant and the other classes will be as powerful as usual for their jobs

@vyor8837

Ай бұрын

@@thelamb8213 sniper is not and has never been that strong.

@thelamb8213

Ай бұрын

@@vyor8837 are you joking

@vyor8837

Ай бұрын

@@thelamb8213 I am not. If sniper was as strong as you seem to think he is he'd be the only class played on 6s, well, aside from medic I suppose.

Is 12 vs 12 too close to casual? I'd love a format closer to how most players experience as TF2.

Imo the big reason prolander sucks in regard to sniper is that in 6v6 if you want to run a sniper it comes at the cost of having a flank scout/roamer, which makes it much easier for an opposing soldier to get in on your sniper. In 7v7 you don't need to make that sacrifice and your teammates should have no problem keeping people from getting in on you.

@capnfapn

Ай бұрын

As soon as finished typing this I was like waiittt that's exactly why highlander sniper is annoying too lmao

Edit: Good video, im really enjoying your content and break downs. Hopefully youre able to bring new blood to the scene

Highlander is my favorite format ever. All classes, pushed to their absolute limits, with a much smaller banlist. Even weapons like the Phlog, Dead Ringer, Bonk, are used.

I do find it kind of odd that most experienced players see sniper as being over-centralizing in their competitive metas, but won't consider experimenting with the idea of banning them. I know it'd be tough for super-established 9-man teams to boot a member off, but I'm sure some other compromise could be had. Maybe 9v9 with 2 scouts, or one floating offclass could help align the play experience with the competitors' goals.

@aidenb876

Ай бұрын

What is they banned all the rifles and let sniper keep the bows?

@ethandavis7310

Ай бұрын

@@aidenb876 I legitimately think sniper would still be very powerful if he only had the huntsman or classic

@aidenb876

Ай бұрын

@@ethandavis7310 He'd still be strong, but maybe weak enough that he'll be more fun to fight

I've always kinda wondered what TF2's true meta would actually look like just as it is with absolutely everything on the table, I don't actually think it be all that fun or deep for anyone. But I think a lot of casual players don't realize these formats exist to try and make the game more fun for people, not less. I think its neat that tf2 can be played in all these different ways. and I kinda wish it was embraced more in general.

4v4 is cool because they play weird maps sometimes

Interesting video, but I feel like your opinions would be different if you played a season or two of HIghlander. Your takes are kinda elitist, absolutely no hate, but pyro is more than "just spychecking"

Your takes about pyro seen really misinformed, yes pyro does spycheck but they also contribute ALOT in holds and pushes, pyro also looks for bombs and mitigates spam in addition to spychecking. Speaking of spychecking, while pyro is the best at it's a role that's expected to be fulfilled by the combo members(med, heavy, demo, pyro) and even to scouts and engi

The best competitive tf2 format is actually prolander 2, now featuring a class limit of ZERO for Sniper exclusively.

I think the mistake with Prolander is calling it “Prolander”, because it immediately positions itself as an alternative to Highlander. As a result, people end up treating it as their chance to off class or meme in the Highlander off season. No Restrictions 6s is another format worth mentioning, it was pretty interesting to play, but map time limits are the main takeaway for me. I played in NR6s Main grand finals and it lasted 4 hours for a BO3 on Process, Propaganda, and Viaduct… all for second place :( As for other formats. Ulti Duo is fun to do as a cool down after scrims, also can have very cool highlights in a tournament. Ulti Trio I’ve only played in a single tournament and it was abysmally run, they ran Highlander whitelist which allowed for Wrangler, FoS, etc. it was disastrous, but had some potential as a cup format. 4s is shockingly fun, it’s great for PUGs with a group of friends, which is also typically how it’s played as a format. For some reason 4 players is a number where you can have a wide skill range within teams and it’s not a massive detriment. So it’s a great format to run a friend team.

4s seems very cool to me in regards to sniper because you have way less players to guard the sniper from bombs/flanks. You're also really forced to be smart about your class choice. As someone who likes counter-picking in competitive games, the small player count can encourage a fast rock-paper-scissors that feels really exciting.

You know what would be a hilariously fun clusterfuck of a comp format? 6v6 class limit 0 on all except scout, no weapon bans.

Heya, simple high/prolander pyro enthusiast here I understand there is a deep meta with incredible detail that has been developed for 6s but obviously one of the biggest turn offs for most people is the lack of class diversity. Why aren’t soldier and scout limited to 1 for the same reasons as demo and medic? It would “artificially” enforce off-classes yes but then how is limiting medic and demo to 1 justified? Doesn’t that “artificially” enforce 2 soldiers and 2 scouts?

I never played any type of comp but I'm really interested in prolander because to me it feels more of a natural progression to a casual player like me but also, class interactions are a huge part of why I like this game so much and prolander maximizes that while trying not to sacrifice anything else, unlike highlander where some players just get shafted for their class pick. And 6s has always been kind of weird for me because hell yeah is it intensive and competitive but it takes away much that also equally like and love about the game, so it makes sense that middle-ground mode like prolander would be my pick.

Please talk about 4v4 passtime! It's an extremely fun format with an active playerbase that pugs everyday.

@Kibble_Bites

Ай бұрын

No.

I don’t have any food this time but I have some Mug’s root beer, just as good. I enjoy the video

Even though it was a gamemode that sorta died before it really had the chance to live, I would've liked seeing you talk about NR6s, just as an example of what a "pure" competitive TF2 looks like, and sort of a counterbalance as to why standard 6s wound up adding the rules they did I always wanted to see more of NR6s while it existed for no other reason than seeing how busted TF2 really winds up being when put under real scrutiny (because surprise surprise, Valve might be really good at making TF2 feel fun, but they fucking suck ass at balancing TF2), alongside the fact that the lack of class limits did put a really massive emphasis on class picks, even if it was very frequently for less than pleasant strategies at play.

Question: is direct hit banned in competitive ? What your opinion on it? I find the direct hit is bordeline op because essentially you get a straight upgrade from stock with the downside of a smaller explosion radius which doesn't matter since you aim for bodyshots for max damage except in some specific scenarios where the blast radius could be useful one of which would be crowd control but since 6s has less people than a casual match for obvious reasons, shouldn't it be a straight upgrade most of the time? Im guessing its banned tho because the minicrit of airborn targets feels way too punishing to rocket jumps hence why i generally dont see comp players using it😅 Edit: nevermind i watched your video about what is banned and why and damn direct hit isnt banned?

What do you do to practice aim and things like rollouts?

@Wild_Rumpus

Ай бұрын

just practice

Basically, if you want to fix Sniper, there is a very strict way to make Sniper closer to being balanced because I doubt complete balance is possibe in a few steps but mainly the 1st over the others. 1. Snipers needs damage fall off. Not reverse fall off. This is because. Headshots across the map and behind all of their team is the main issue that has no consistent counter besides maybe another sniper and probably a vaccinator medic. This would be that the full 50 base and headshot crit count at point blank but its more like 40 to 30 at medium range and 25, maybe less, at max distance in order to match skilled snipers who can quick scope at close range and reduce the reward when sniper reduce the risk the further out they snipe. Ive had plenty of times Ive died once to a sniper but simpily cannot reach and affect him and die over and over because my options are to risk trying to play the game and get headshot or to not play the game at all. This class does too much damage at too far a range for me to do much about on my own and make infamous stalemate much worse. 2. Sniper needs the laser when scoped in. Charged shots are ridculous without any downside at all and maybe should be removed but this helps do that Snipers doesnt have so much steath that I sometimes cannot see them in the kill cam after I did and makes the best hardware win games for eho can spot the 2 pixels that are the sniper, first. 3. Reload. Sniper has a bolt actiln rifle. He shpuld take a second to relaod each shot so he has to choose his targets carefully and well. Its so obvious that guns need reload times and I dont get ehy this one in particular has none. Extra: Remove charge shot or at least make it times two or a multipler that reduced with range too. Given sniper a crit equivalant for doing nothing is too much and player complain about the Diamond back for Spy like this isnt so much worse.

@swagguy7515

Ай бұрын

"sniper does too much damage at long range" what? huh? you want mid-rangeper not sniper

@Lawlz4Dayzz

Ай бұрын

@@swagguy7515 yes that would be better. Reward should match the risk taken by snipers.

@swagguy7515

Ай бұрын

shit man, if you're going that far Mr. Mundee might as well be rebooted and redisgned into a Micronesian or a Melanesian or some shit man, that ain't Sniper bro

15:10 you were looking for complexity or expression.

I would say passtime 4s or just 4s in general has passed 7s/prolander as the 3rd TF2 format. Prolander is pretty much dead now. I think the biggest reason prolander never took off because 3 formats that rely so heavily on medic made it so prolander could never differentiate itself from other formats. It was always either 6s+1 random or HL with 2 less players.

learned aboutz pro lander ty!

I love 6s and HL but not so much PL. Besides PL not having seasons anymore, it was more of an uncanny Valley of the big 2 than a happy medium. PL is just HL but you don't have spy, which makes it frustrating to have your sniper be diffed and have no other way of killing him effectively. Soldier gets shafted by heavy, pyro scout/engi so he's no help, and the next best thing is to hide. Sniper is tolerable in HL and 6s because of the options you have to pick him, but in PL he basically has free rein less you have some one switch which makes your DM as a whole worse. PL is still fun enough, but it's fundemtnaly flawed. HL suffers from Sniper Syndrome as well, but to a lesser degree.

The only relevant way to rework Sniper is to take the hunting rifle from TF2Classic and make it his only weapon choice (Huntsman doesn't hurt anyone so it can stay). No Hardscoping. Revolver-like 6 shots, Headshots deal only 120 damage and the zoom is relatively little. Might aswell call him the Marksman too.

@fangrowls6336

Ай бұрын

The hunting rifle is a bad idea: Its either -missing all shots if you re not that good at it -being a menace like the usual sniper only you have more mobility and faster attack rate Essentially you re buffing the sniper instead of nerfing him by giving him that weapon.

good video ^u^

I wonder what a 7v7 mode with 6s class limits would look like. It probably would be fun, but the idea of sniper or heavy meta doesn't sit well with me. Maybe the two soldiers could balance snipers out.

There are Pass time and Demoknight leagues.

@forzotv6792

Ай бұрын

omg where can i sign in

i love the concept of a class limit of 1, but pyro and sniper being the most likely to be played (outside of the normal 4 classes) just sounds obnoxious.

@switZ7Q

Ай бұрын

I've played a lot of highlander and I'll be the first to tell you that Pyro is significantly more annoying than sniper

I love wild rumpus

Why do you lock your fps to 200?

@Wild_Rumpus

Ай бұрын

monitor is 144hz and dont really care about frames past that or optimizing things either

I think prolander is the best. It represents the game the best imo

Yeah Sniped is not just anti fun but abti competitive as well. The TF2 devs really made cheaters lives alot easier by not only putting him in the game but mainly refusing to rework and rebalance him since launch as most other classes had in one degree or another.

Coming from R6 Siege where one shot headshot is a rule, sniper is one of the most broken overpowered things Ive ever seen besides an admin typing /kill (player) in the console. Siege has drones, various abilities and gadjets, quick peeking with peekers advantage, and overall much more communication at a casual level than TF2. There is always a way that it could be done and won better even when you are one bullet away from death and thats what makes it so fun. TF2 has almost no recon nor intel elements for individual players and no Spy main is gonna roleplay a security camera in their backstab montage either, not should it be required. There is no information counterplay like CS GO has either and sniper is effectively more stealthy than spy with almost no risk. The game simpiky isnt designed to handle this the way it does to make playing Engineer like a game of Tower Defense. Overall Sniper needs a major rework and it all needs to be nerfs because Sniper already has the highest isingle player damage, little to no risk, infinite range, and almost no counters so there is no reward in this besides something completely new in a subclass as a distraction because the class that ruins games needs to be ruined to a degree if the game wants to grow.

IDK if Ive eved said this on yhsi channel but its possible because Sniper was the 1st ever class created in the original Quake Team Fortress mod that there was either some sort of either favoritism or refusal to change him since technicall all of TF2 is based from that original class design and thus change the blue print of TF2 in the devs' minds. It sounds out there I know but I am trying to find a cause that fits the result in how absolutely terrible the gameplay design and execution of Sniper was which is a same because I like the Sniper character but its been ruined by all these baf experiences in game from bots and cheaters to toxic players who rage switch to sniper and cant play much else.

Since 2017 the TF2 competitive scene has shrunk by about 36% In 2017 there was just above 2,000 playing competitive (HL & 6s) Today theres around 1,300 This is just NA.

Stop being wild.

If sniper was overpowered and centralizing, why is it an off pick in 6s?

@Wild_Rumpus

Ай бұрын

because the faster pace of 6s makes sniper a much more niche and handleable threat

@vyor8837

Ай бұрын

@@Wild_Rumpus So he isn't overpowered and centralizing. See, most people complaining about him go on and on and on about quick scopes, but if those were, you know, reliable it wouldn't matter how fast paced the game is.

@Wild_Rumpus

Ай бұрын

@@vyor8837 in 6s sniper is not centralizing thats right, in other formats like highlander sniper is centralizing

@vyor8837

Ай бұрын

@@Wild_Rumpus define that phrase, "centralizing", I suspect we're thinking of two different things.

arena respawn not even mentioned... sad!

Ah yes, when even the comp player says that sniper is op. I do find that maps with more obstacles and stuff in between the arena make siper less horribly unbalanced. But still point and click where's waldo game, broken AF

@artifactU

Ай бұрын

he honestly shouldntve been added in the first place but hes an established part of tf2 by now so removing him would waste a lot of past effort even if it does make the game more fun. i just wanna play uncletopia with no sniper

@switZ7Q

Ай бұрын

It's almost like sniper is unbalanced due to poorly designed maps which give him too many sightlines🤔. Speaking as a heavy main in highlander btw

In short, stalemates suck

2:39 "the best option" this opinion is why MYM failed. Nobody wanted to play Valve's comp 6s without the established insular ruleset and restrictions. You guys dug this grave, now you must lay in it. I commented this on a previous video, and I'll say it again. Valve does not want to support a meta where 5 of the 9 classes are situational at best and useless at worst. 6s elitism is why TF2's future as an esport died. End of story. If Valve had focused on making more highlander roles fun instead of making off-classes worse in 6s, the game wouldn't be as dead as it is right now.

@richardvlasek2445

Ай бұрын

yeah mym failed not because valve are a group of incompetent morons, it died because you can't run 4 wrangled engineers on process last in invite

Do you enjoy doing this every day?

@petrichor04_

Ай бұрын

dedicated hater

Prolander might be interesting if it was basically sixes but 7 players. Class limits stay the same meaning 1 med 1 demo 2 solly 2 scout BUT 1 off class is required at all times. That seventh class would probably just be sniper(sniper class limit ---> 0) so who cares fuck everything

in prolander and highlander one per class is forced because: that's how it is done in other games, so it is much easier for anyone who comes from other games; makes it more like casual (which competitive modes are supposed to be); They give more variety of plays and modes; and they don't make it as boring as traditional 6v6 is

2 views in 1 minute u fell off

@capnfapn

Ай бұрын

It's over

If sniper was more 'realistic', that is being projectile class with bullet drop and long reload times instead of hitscan, maybe that would reduce his effectiveness?

Man hit about 3 pipes in this demo haha, great discussion nonetheless. On the topic of prolander being created for the sake of allowing off-classes to be played, I think that is a completely valid reason for the format. Every class deserves to be played I think. I'm not a fan of 6s because of the boring (for me) meta where if you don't play 2 soldiers etc. then you are just going to be disadvantaged for trying to do something different.