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@ladybabe6958

Ай бұрын

Golden Path? i choose Age of Stars path. oh wait wrong topic

@ahmadfrhan5265

Ай бұрын

Dune is about Islam vs whites , it has nothing to do with “ religion manipulation “ as many claim, Paul made his promise and took them to paradise and won against the imperialist whites , this is literally our world now and what is happening right now , it is Islam bs whites

The more I learn about the Dune universe, the more I feel like it’s all an acid trip. The lore is insane!!

@jessicamccormick701

Ай бұрын

Spice is definitely inspired by the author's experiences with mushrooms 🍄 😊

@savlort

Ай бұрын

Try watching it while on acid....🤯🤯🤯

@savlort

Ай бұрын

​@@jessicamccormick701LSD

@YYYYY123Y

Ай бұрын

It's why Jodorowsky's vision of it would've made much more sense than some overproduced hollywood bs

@matheuskerr9222

Ай бұрын

@@YYYYY123Y what the fuck are you on about? Jodo is a charlatan who doesn't even like Dune. Sure, Denis is a prick, but to say Jody's would be any better is just ridiculous. and you must be one sorry pothead sap to think his version would hold a candle to the overproduced Hollywood bs. (ps: I do agree it's Hollywood overproduced crap, but it's still better than anything Jody could imagine)

The difference is that Leto II has direct access to all of humanity's history through experiences and memories on both the female and male side. He's seen and experienced all. In that way, he differs from actual despots who claimed they know what is best for humanity and the future but with no direct access to humanity only books and historical accounts which we know is often not always the truth and often manipulated especially by the victors.

@joelmitchell4289

Ай бұрын

He also had the ability to see the future in a more coherent way than his father, and he knew that his tyranny was the only way to make sure that humanity would "Look out for tyrants." Yes, seeing the past in all its glory and darkness helped, but he knew the struggle and utopias were not over in the future. I'm honestly not doing it justice in explaining the whole thing, but I believe the two advanced face dancers at the end of Chapterhouse, Dune have something to say about the advancement of humanity, that we can create our own future, good or bad

@joetheperformer

Ай бұрын

Oh so Paul can’t see his male ancestors’ memories? I thought he could…

@allthingsnerd.4484

Ай бұрын

@@joetheperformerno he can see male and female memories. The difference between him and his son is that Leto II was pre born so he had no inherent sense of individuality that Paul had, having not opened those memories until taking the water of life. That is why Leto II could make the sacrifice that Paul could not.

@joetheperformer

Ай бұрын

@@allthingsnerd.4484 agreed. Paul has had too much from life and is too invested in the people in his life. Meanwhile, Leto II never had the chance to have such a life before prescience. That makes sense that he didn’t feel as much attachment to humanity.

@allthingsnerd.4484

Ай бұрын

@@joetheperformerLeto II has a deep attachment to humanity, but not to being an individual human.

frank herbert was so high

@sawtooth808

Ай бұрын

He definitely was not low

@JEEDUHCHRI

Ай бұрын

Paul Stamets confirmed this vis a vis Herbert eating mushrooms and coming up with a lot of his ideas.

@Thailerr

Ай бұрын

Want to write fantasy? Smoke a joint. Want to write sci-fi? Eat some shrooms.

@deensaid7762

Ай бұрын

With Dune: Messiah is on the way to the silver screen anytime soon, the next 4 installments will be too complicated for directors to direct.

@mastpg

19 күн бұрын

​@@Thailerr "Horror fantasy....cocaine" - Stephen King

Frank Herbert wrote the Dune books as a warning against trusting charismatic leaders blindly. At the same time, the Golden Path is the one slim, miniscule chance of humanity to avoid extinction, and while Leto II Atreides achieved this, he underwent a horrifying metamorphosis...one that his father couldn't, as Paul ultimately wanted to preserve his own individual humanity whilst Leto II due to his unique birth and Bene Gesserit background and design was able to hold his humanity in the midst of becoming what he needed to be to achieve the Golden Path. Paul Atreides, Alia Atreides, and the twins Ghanima and Leto II Atreides were faced with the choice of undergoing the metamorphosis of the God Emperor Sandworm-Human hybrid...but Paul refused, Alia couldn't, and Ghanima said of Leto II: "One of us had to accept the agony, and he was always the stronger" In Dune, Paul becomes the Padishah Emperor...but this results in a galactic jihad that genocides trillions. In Dune Messiah, Paul can't stand being the ruler and can't bring himself to do what the Golden Path would need...leaving into the dessert. In Children of Dune, Alia Atreides serves in place of Paul...but can't handle the power nor her spice-induced abomination and madness... In God Emperor of Dune, Leto II is the hero and the villain, orchestrating thousands of years of stagnant, repressive, and still rule to ensure humanity would never again allow themselves to be ruled under any sole despotic ruler...planning his own downfall and achieving the Golden Path, freeing humanity from his all knowing prescience with Siona Atreides. Lastly in the end of Chapterhouse: Dune, as with Quinn's ideas (a wonderful sci fi literature channel), the ending sums up the very theme and message of Dune - Frank Herbert himself has "lost control and rule of characters that are supposed to be under him," resulting in their "true freedom." Ultimately it's a "happy" ending of sorts, but Dune, much like a great sandy mountain, shows the theme that whilst a ruler can seem mighty and stable and promise greatness, it's all just sand shifting and sifting like grains on a desert. This isn't to say there's only nihilism in Frank Herbert's 6 Dune books, but a warning of power, a long view of history, a message of the impact of ecology, and the theme that corruptible people are attracted to power, and no ruler is perfect.

@scotscottscottt

Ай бұрын

It's a critique, an exploration, not a myopic condemnation. It's a fictional sci-fi novel structured around deeply archetypal human behavioral patterns, not explicit propaganda.

@tomelding9839

Ай бұрын

Brilliant summary

@hypatia137

Ай бұрын

Great analysis. Dune reminds me of Percy Bysshe Shelley's Ozymandias (Phroah Ramses II). Especially the last lines: "Nothing beside remains. Round the decay of that colossal wreck, lone and level sands boundless and bare stretch far away." Speaking of this and in line with this, Dune also tries to say that knowledge and being deep is not always being truly deep, wise and full of conscience. Bene Gesserit always have best quotes, great philosophy, theories, knowledge, incredible skills and intelligence. But even they are doomed after a some point. Because they do not always do what they are theorically know. For example, Gaius Helen Mohiam says in one of the first chapters of Dune that mystery of life in not a problem to solve but a reality to be experienced. This is a great wise saying, oh God. But The Sisterhood herself fails to do this quote justice. Realizing, knowing and analyzing well are not enough. Embracing, putting into action and continuing the job are also essential. In the books, Lady Jessica thinks and says how religion and politics create chaos when they walk together. She repeats herself this. She warns her children from time to time. She knows its meaning. She utters great quotes about this topic. But in the end, all she does is causing her tyrant dynasty to become even more powerful. And she is aware of what she is doing! She does not turn her back and decide not to talk to them ever again. Because, deep down, she is not entirely different from them. She just has not enough direct political and esoteric power to show her inner shadow. She rules Caladan, not the entire Known Universe after all. She is a powerful Reverend Mother, not a Kwisatz Haderach Ubermensch Emperor or a preborn Uberfrau Imperial Regent-Chief Priestess/Female Pope. Power only attracts corruptible. But in the books, Jessica is not tested by as much power as her children and grandchildren are. And she is so elegant, charismatic and has a sweet side. She gives readers the effect of a drug. Still, even if she is also a victim, after a certain point, due to an amount of agency she holds in her hands, she is responsible for her choices and actions. She is not like a rape victim or a leader or an intellectual who unfairly suffers because of her non-stop work for righteousness for the sake of virtue or a commoner who is murdered by occupier forces.

@AceX47

29 күн бұрын

That summary comment deserves an award, thank you my good sir.

@nula0043

28 күн бұрын

Brilliant summery, I would only add this question - isn't it said in the opus that the corruption attracts power not the other way around?

I've been looking videos about the Dune universe ever since I saw the movie. There are many content creators who give excellent information, but you are by far my favorite. Concise, easy to digest and great writing. Thank you!

@juanguerrero9128

Ай бұрын

Read the books.

This question has been sticking with me: What if Leto was wrong and he oppressed humanity for millennia for nothing?

There are some concepts in Dune that I deeply appreciate, such as Frank Herbert's critical look at charismatic leaders and religious messiahs. I like that there are specific focus on the systems that give rise to them. I like that they are represented as fallible and I also enjoy the moral ambiguity in his work instead of clear lines between black and white, good and evil. But at the same time, that is where my enjoyment ends. The idea that Leto II became the God Emperor intent on crushing humanity in his fist in an attempt to force them to "evolve" is in my opinion misguided. This "Golden Path", this distant future that apparently only he can See is the only reason there is any moral ambiguity in his actions. Otherwise, what he did would be seen as an atrocity of astronomic proportions (pun intended). Dune, at its heart is a work of fiction and I believe the author used it to tackle some very important philosophical questions but at the same time, I also think that it is somewhat pretentious and takes itself way too seriously. I believe that every time allegory attempts to teach us an important lesson about the human condition, either moral or political, it is also in our best interests to make note of the places in which the work in question also inadvertently deviates from reality and inevitably distorts it. 2:38 That his plan actually worked is based solely on his mythic power of prescience. It's a bold claim to make as it paints the diversity of the human condition and the human experience in a single brush stroke and strongly implies that every single human would experience and respond to the trauma of his tyrannical leadership in the exact same way. That is just not the way life works. There is a reason why two people can have the exact same experience and respond to it in drastically different ways, quite often diametrically opposed. Now think about it from the perspective that every person experience within his Empire will have a different experience and a different reality based on their culture, birth, geographic location, religion, language, genetics and heritage - all the things that constitute to personal identity. Pain may be a universal experience but we each have an individual response to it. So to think that Leto II assumes that he could somehow teach a moral lesson to every human in existence that they will learn and carry it with them and somehow they and their children and their children's children will never forget it is *arrogance of the highest order.* I also resent the idea that he seems to think that the only way for humans to learn and grow, to _evolve_ is through suffering and subjugation. This is a misguided religious conception: that pain by itself is a catalyst for transformation. It is not. It takes a person of immense character to endure and an even greater one to transmute suffering into something else. What I have learned in the field of psychotherapy is that trauma gives rise to mental illness. It is the suffering that begets more suffering - the cycle of abuse that spins and spins until someone decides to grab hold of the wheel and stop it. What is to stop someone from Leto II's world from looking at the suffering around them and infer that the only way escape suffering is to seize power at any means necessary? It is also worth pointing out that the experience of complete and utter powerlessness, or worthlessness or despair that often gives rise to antagonistic personalities: Narcissism, Sociopathy/Psychopathy and Machiavellianism. (All of which have strong ties to charismatic leadership and centralized power.) You will be surprised and disturbed at the monster survivalism can turn you into. So this idea that his tyranny being some great gift to humanity does not seem real to me. It sounds like the delusions of a villain who believes that everything he did was for the greater good without taking a hard look at the reality around him and for that, it renders the ethical dilemma presented in Dune completely moot.

@DreamersOfReality

Ай бұрын

You put my thoughts about the Dune franchise into words better than I could have.

@lolalucxyz

Ай бұрын

The prescience doesn't really imply that humanity is uniform. It accounts for the variety. The entire point of that is to examine things under idealized conditions. Let's just grant everything the genocidal tyrant is claiming. It's all true, it's all guaranteed to work, and it's 100% the only way. Even knowing that Leto 2 has it all figured out and what he's doing is the only way to ensure the survival of humanity, it's STILL a moral dilemma. -> No real life person acting like he does can ever be justifiable. If we don't cheer for Leto, no great "man with the plan" can ever be worth considering.

@MrVlad12340

29 күн бұрын

I think the main summary here is: would be nice if they shown if it all was worth if or if Wormleto just screwed up and gave humanity PTSD.

Loving your essays on dune.

You should keep making Dune videos, the ones you've made so far are great

To answer your question regarding why Leto's actions and will should be prioritized, it is relatively simple: he held the power to turn his will into reality. His privilege as an abomination, Paul's son, and ruler of humanity gives him the right to do as he pleases as no one can challenge him. That's the beauty of Leto, the simplicity and complexity of existence. He is a continuation of humanity's desires to dominate, cultivate, preserve, and destroy by the rights of one's physical or mental willpower. Those who lack the means or ability to overcome fate will be in oblivion as the universe rewards survivors, not losers. Leto was somebody who felt the weight of his responsibility; he accepted his burden while his father rejected it, dooming his sister towards self-destruction. Leto embodies humanity's desire for survival; similarly, one cuts off an unnecessary limb. Leto does the same for humanity. Purging aspects of the human condition and predating humanity's character to the point where all weakness that'll likely doom the species is exterminated for eternity. Strength is one aspect of the equation of life that one cannot ignore; if you cannot accept that fundamental truth of existence, then your only choice is oblivion. Life is for the strong-minded, those who experience life's cruelties and choose to rage against the darkness in pursuit of light. Honing one's inner darkness to serve the light while combating outer darkness in whatever form it may take, cosmic horrors beyond imagination, predatory aliens or animals, or simply other people who wish to impose their will upon you. Life is a reality to experience, not to alter; accept the game for what it is and play it to your heart's content, facing the consequences of your actions and the ultimate fate that awaits all things in our universe. Remember, even a sun can die, and there exist mysteries to our universe that may never be known to our species. So fight for the right to exist and adhere to the order of things until the opportunity for further adventure comes about, as seen at the end of God Emperor in the significant scattering and famine times when the authority of another is absolute plan around said power, innovate and self analyze to the point where you can develop yourself into a weapon that can ultimately overcome said authority in the long run-cultivating your power base so that you can guarantee your own community safety without opposing the powers that be directly or indirectly-cultivating your strength symmetrically with the existing institution until inevitably it doesn't. The question of why Rome fell isn't what should be considered. Instead, the question should be, why did Rome last so long?

@The_preserver_x16

Ай бұрын

Leto never altered the game's rules, merely enhancing their reality in the minds of all living beings and proceeding generations. Forcing them to understand the universe's structure so that they don't make the same sequence of mistakes that would've resulted in the death of humans across the universe. Proscribing inherent disgust towards the characteristics that would lead to oblivion, thus prolonging the game itself and humanity's continued existence into likely infinity as we continue to grow unchecked by our weaknesses.

@Skyswindler

Ай бұрын

There's so much to disagree with here.

@RocketSurgn_

Ай бұрын

@@Skyswindler Agreed. It’s flowery pseudo-intellectual language for fascist rhetoric.

@DrDiabolical000

Ай бұрын

I feel like the entire point of dune's story is to question the logic of the comment given. To disagree with the leaders who use them and the fanatics who wholeheartedly believe in them without questioning.

@DrDiabolical000

Ай бұрын

​@@Skyswindler true. All his paragraphs could be simply replaced by "only the strong survives and the weak dies, so choose to be strong." This philosophy can justify any type of cruelty. And it openly prohibits any form of questioning. Cz if you question it then "u r just a weak person, CHOOSING to be weak who will face bad consequences because he/she refused to face the truth." You know who else talks like that... charismatic and fearful leaders.

love your Dune videos!

What was the threat that was going to make humanity extinct? How were we risking our species's survival by going on business as usual? It worked for thousands of years before Paul. Did Leto II foresee some specific event, an extragalactic threat, or some war so devastating that not a singke soul could survive?

@scotscottscottt

Ай бұрын

Ask Leto II

@ElMarcoh

Ай бұрын

The whole idea is that humanity had become fragile, very dependent on spice, always involved in petty scheming and internal powers fighting for control, unreliable alliances; so any threat external or internal in the long run (thousands? millions of years?) could potentially send humanity as a whole into a death spiral. Maybe it wasn't even a single event, he foresaw that without intervention humanity would eventually cease to exist, a long and slow death, so slow that even humans would not notice they were dying.

@broonkhavar1461

Ай бұрын

According to additional books, written using notes left behind, the threat was the return of the Thinking Machines - which were not completely wiped out at the end of the Butlerian Jihad as first believed. Humanity needed to be so scattered, so adaptable, that it was impossible for the Thinking Machines to ever dominate or eradicate all of humankind ever again.

@TheDancing0wind

Ай бұрын

Read the books. At least the original herber books. (it is revealed in his sons books .. but many people consider them to be fan fiction). Its a bit nebulous but at the end of book 4 it is explained what exactly was Letos "gift" to humanity to ensure survival. The trait that allowed humanity whatever may come to survive. Everything else ( the aversion to war, aversion to charismatic leaders) was just extra toppings on the cace

@Xerion1

Ай бұрын

​​@@broonkhavar1461Yup, thinking machines that have prescience. Leto II made it so that future humans have genes that make them immune to prescience and thus, cannot be beaten by the thinking machines who gain it in the future ensuring our survival.

The future does not exist, it is merely an idea, there is only the present. The eternal now. Therefore sacrificing the present for the Future is samsara

Maybe the real Golden Path is the friends we made along the way.

Great video again!! Thx ❤

This is probably why Tolkien hated Dune.

@hartantoanggoro

Ай бұрын

Tolkien embraces the heroism and understands the action of a hero can affect the world and anything that revolves around the hero, Frank however detest heroism and hate the fact that hero must exist to save the world so he makes Paul as a hero but reject his role but regardless have to accept it in the most grueling world he lives in.

Why is that always the ultimate theory that through great suffering will peace and prosperity become. Why is that always the case?

@mcclorei9

Ай бұрын

It’s a tenant that those who oppress want those who are oppressed to believe. Oppression does not lead to future liberation or freedom. There is no justice in suffering. It’s scary that we think this way.

@leeknowe1598

Ай бұрын

It is because humans can't have peace. There is two reasons first is rarety of resources second is human nature itself. So humanity is and always be in constant wait for ultimate peace and prosperity while the best we can have is what we already have now. I personally think even in some post abundant reality even if we have unlimited resources people would create poverty and lack to have control and upper hand over others. There are in my opinion 3 types of humans. If you give the 3 types all money they need to fullify all their material needs and wildest dreams. First category will lose it those are people who indulge in self destruction drugs parties out of emptiness (like some Hollywood stars) etc. 2nd they ll aspire for some spiritual fullifiement give out to charity or just enjoy themselves (to my mind jeff bezos came as an example he just spending his money on his own entertainment doesn't care to shape humanity future doesn't think being a billionaire makes him qualified to know what is best for humanity ) . 3rd and in my opinion it is majority they ll go after power they want to control others either they are honest about it to themselves or they are driven by some rationalization process and self-righteous claim to power for the greater good. So the 3rd category is why we can never have peace. And you can see this in our current politics you ll find tyrant regimes who are straight out tyrants they want power they don't care what we think. You ll find tyrants like the god emperor for example democratic powerful nations who start proxy wars in some regions for the greater good to keep a sense of stability because peace is impossible and you can see as well how some elites think about preserving humanity in the face of challenges like pollution "overpopulation" and some really sensitive resources going instinct if consumed at the same pace by all the 8 billions.

@leeknowe1598

Ай бұрын

So like the god emperor envisioned we are always caught in cycles of war suffering and peace and he had to make the choice of which generations will live through peace and which through war. And he chose the future generations to have peace.

@mastpg

19 күн бұрын

​​@@mcclorei9 Sounds like you're taking a big hit from the Presentism Pipe. Suffering has been an unavoidable fact of life for nearly all of humanity's existence. You don't think the more reasonable explanation for the "With great suffering...." lullaby was that it was kinda the only thing you could say that would keep community-society from ripping itself apart in desperate times...and then it didn't even really work all that often?

@halfpine9952

2 күн бұрын

I think it has a lot to do with our concepts of physical cycles and dualities in nature. After death there is life, so it may stand that after suffering there is peace.

There are more lives affected between his death and infinity than between his birth and death.

@Xerion1

Ай бұрын

Yup, so from a utilitarian perspective the golden path is the right choice by a mile.

@jona.scholt4362

Ай бұрын

I disagree. You're sacrificing the happiness and well being of people who are alive in the present (causing actual people to suffer) for the well being of people who do not exist. If humanity goes extinct it doesn't mean that those future people "suffer"; they don't feel anything. Think of it this way. If you had a million people in the present experience "happiness" and zero people in the future experience "nothing" (neither happiness nor suffering), you'd have infinitely more "happiness"; it's like dividing 1,000,000 by zero. Compare that to The Golden Path. In that case those present million would experience "suffering". Let's say this hypothetical future has 99 million people all all of them experience "happiness". (You could use any number, I chose 99 million for the sake of easy math) In this scenario, there are 100 million people total from the present and future and 99% of them experienced "happiness". Sounds good, right? But that is still less than the first scenario where 100% of the people experienced "happiness". Now obviously this is an oversimplification, but it's a way to show the pitfalls of a utilitarian "means justify the ends" type of argument.

Wow great video! Thanks❤

Thank you for clarifying the "golden path". Was never sure I totally understood Herbert's plan

Great video, great explanation! Can you please do a video about the Butlerian Jihad???

great videos bro

The golden path is the path that leads you to become an Elden Lord.

Good work!

In Frank's books, the Golden Path was freeing humanity from the trap of prescience, evolving humans to be invisible to prescients. And then Brian's books reverse this, so that the Golden Path becomes Duncan Idaho becoming the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach, directing the future of humans and sentient machines both.

@Chris-jw8vm

Ай бұрын

Your joking on that final bit right?

@jeffdege4786

Ай бұрын

@@Chris-jw8vm Have you read "Sandworms of Dune"?

@Chris-jw8vm

Ай бұрын

@@jeffdege4786 not read any. Just watched the movies 3 times each.

I think Leto’s peace, which lasted 3,500 years was an effective stalemate. Paul, sure a messiah and a tyrant, but he son brought lasting peace for generations.

@Kyle-sr6jm

29 күн бұрын

Peace was not the goal.

great video!! what about more dune????*

What a series!

Great video!

MORE DUNE PLZ!

Explained it perfectly

I think the weight of all those past lives inescapably poisoned whatever prescience Leto--or Paul--possessed. Yes, the prescience was real, but was it complete? Did they truly see all possible paths--or only the ones that made sense to beings who could recall and reminisce about humanity's ignorant and brutal past as if it happened last year? This was a society still stuck in the Middle Ages, despite aeons among the stars. Great houses, emperors and nobility, sword and knife fights to settle disputes, brutal lack of concern for the peons except when useful, concubinage and political marriages to create alliances, visible power held by men while most of the power in women's hands existed in the shadows, and an obsession with bloodlines point to a society not only stagnant, but already well acquainted with the follies of populism and concentrated power. And then along comes a family with extra super duper special bloodlines--and prescience. And their solution to the problems of stagnation and concentrated power is to double and triple down on the same ideas to force an explosive backlash against concentrated power? That's the reasoning of trauma survivors who do the same awful things when they hold the whip because their minds have been so warped that they are incapable of thinking of better ideas. It's also the reasoning of old age that has become incapable of seeing or even understanding new paradigms. Trying to hold all of history in one mind while simultaneously considering new ideas seems a fool's errand. Leto II got his backlash. But did he really change anything? Doesn't look like it to me.

@SystemLordNemo

Ай бұрын

While Leto had lot of knowledge he was like everybody else just a one dum human. His visions could suffer among other things "survivor bias". Maybe some timelines made anti omniscience genes or technologies to expand far and wide removing those timelines from Leto's visions. It is hard to not think thousands of years under Leto's reign to be nothing but waste. Needed technologies like the "no-ships" or anti omniscience genes probably would have not need that long in technologically advanced society. The only reason for that length was the "lesson". Were people truly that resistant to liberal thought?

@DreamersOfReality

Ай бұрын

Populism isn't a dirty word, my friend. Democracy in all its forms is populist by nature. Our rulers poison the term because they fear people making them obsolete.

Thoughtful commentary. Personally, the tension between a risky personal freedom and a safer subjugation has always been interesting. My own views have also evolved over time.

I've always disagreed with the Golden Path and the "logic" for it. You're sacrificing the happiness and well being of people who are alive in the present (causing actual people to suffer) for the well being of people who do not exist. If humanity goes extinct it doesn't mean that those future people "suffer"; they don't feel anything. Think of it this way. If you had a million people in the present experience "happiness" and zero people in the future experience "nothing" (neither happiness nor suffering), you'd have infinitely more "happiness"; it's like dividing 1,000,000 by zero. Compare that to The Golden Path. In that case those present million would experience "suffering". Let's say this hypothetical future has 99 million people all all of them experience "happiness". (You could use any number, I chose 99 million for the sake of easy math) In this scenario, there are 100 million people total from the present and future and 99% of them experienced "happiness". Sounds good, right? But that is still less than the first scenario where 100% of the people experienced "happiness". Now obviously this is an oversimplification, but it's a way to show the pitfalls of a utilitarian "means justify the ends" type of argument.

Is there anything in Dune book that proves that the 'Water of Life' isn't acting as a parasite and that the prophesy isn't just propaganda?

@RocketSurgn_

Ай бұрын

I think that depends on whether you read Herbert as having intended us to take as the fully objective, “actual truth” everything about Paul and Leto II describe seeing about every other path being a worse future and leading to the end of humanity. That, or the subjective interpretation that we all have even when we try to be fully truthful. Is their prescience necessarily actually perfect and complete just because they think it is? I lean toward an author who explicitly didn’t think you should take charismatic leaders at their word wanting you to have some suspicion about their predictions of some eventual future horror that justifies their need for absolute power and cruelty now. I’d even argue there’s evidence _supporting_ your suggestion. Using the water of life opens them up to the experience and influence of all the minds before them, bringing all their biases/prejudices/subjective interpretations of what worked for them in their past. Leto II even said the voice he most listened to, and pretty clearly based his plan on to avoid the human extinction he said was otherwise unavoidable, was incredibly oppressive and considered it a success to have created an empire of short lived superstitious easily manipulated subjects. Of course the ancient dynastic autocrat would think their methods were “good for” the people and should be used again.

Great essay ! Does anybody know the title of the backround music used here??

@adrianbean3734

Ай бұрын

I think it's "Arrakis" from "The Art and Soul of Dune (Companion book music)" album.

This guy knows his stuff!!!

F. Herbert wrote the fascinating SF “Dune” with ingenious settings like some tech limitations. It also made the novel informative speculative fiction, making us think about the entire system of civilization. On the other, his intelligence might have told that such limitations will block the civilizational development. I hope D. Villeneuve solves the dilemma with a humane & hopeful movie adaptation in the 21st century.

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Like Anakin Skywalker, Paul Atreides went down the dark side because he chose to. Visions or not, Paul made a choice and he acted on it. What Leto did was far worse and there is no justification for evil or committing atrocities for the so-called greater good. This reminds me how Jon questioned the Night Watch’s moral system such as taking in an ally like Craster, a man who rapes his own daughters. If the Night’s Watch are guarding the realms of men and allow some evil to exist for the greater good, then what or who are they actually protecting? I agree with Peter Jackson’s Aragorn that humanity will likely succumb to evil in the future but that doesn’t mean they should stop fighting evil in the present.

You should read the philosophy of Isaiah Berlin. He frequently touches on these ideas throughout his work and he makes reference to far more moral philosophers than the standard Mill, Hume, Kant and Aristotle.

The Golden Path is a path paved with good intentions…which leads it straight to hell.

Is basically the sacrifice of the few for the good of the many but with #'s in the billions.

He is like real world gods, he creates a world of suffering but says everything is there for humanity.

@scotscottscottt

Ай бұрын

Exactly the cynical take that the films are portraying, and not at all how Herbert saw things.

@TheDancing0wind

Ай бұрын

except he actually KNOWS he is doing it for humanity. His prescience, his depths of genetical memory are established dune world building facts. That is why its so difficult to judge Leto 2 and Paul ... by regular tin pot dictator standartds sure they are evil - but they are not regular dictators by any means. Leto 2 stretches the definition of human to the extreme if not beyond. Leto knows the future as you know that tomorrow you will be going to work. He knows the consequences of his actions and the suffering he causes. He remembers being Polpot and being Cesar and being slave on plantation and a doctor during a plague, and starving girl orphan. He is placed in a unique postion and his sees the consequences of his actions on survival of human race as surely as you see the consequences of going/not going to work tomorrow.

@TykoBrian7

Ай бұрын

@@TheDancing0windthe future doesn’t exist

@TheDancing0wind

Ай бұрын

@@TykoBrian7 no - you don't exist

The one that provides the best future for humanity that is possible

Leto reminds me Egyptian pharaohs.

@sawtooth808

Ай бұрын

The main past life that had dominance over Leto II _was_ an Egyptian Pharaoh (Harum I believe his name was)

@TheDancing0wind

Ай бұрын

The funny thing is - in a sence he is - he is ALL of the pharohs of egypt. He can access all of their memories

Seems to me the worms or worm took over

Died out from what? What was the extinction threat?

Lore of What Actually Is This Golden Path? | Dune Explained momentum 100

My interpretation of the Golden Path was that Leto would create what humanity thought was the utopian ideal, a universe of total peace and stability. But in doing that, he also stripped away all notion of freedom through his tyrannical rule and with it robbed humanity of the ability to evolve on their own. This was not unlike the Butlerian Jihad, where reliance to machines also almost brought about humanity's destruction. Humanity rejected the machines and the false gifts they offered that eventually would lead to humanity's destruction. Without the machines, humanity evolved well past what they thought they were capable of. The Golden Path's purpose was to lead humanity down this supposedly utopian path of peace and stability, only to have them realize that it is an empty path that takes away their humanity. He needed humanity to experience it in order to reject it. Leto can't die on his own, but instead must be killed, so when he does die, it will be because humans have killed him in the ultimate rejection of his Golden Path. The Golden Path and the fake utopia at the end is the false prophet, like Paul and Leto, that will bring about humanity's stagnation and with it their eventual destruction if they follow it. Humanity would die on their own if they reached it alone, but Leto allowed them to reach it and kept humanity alive, so they could experience it and understand it is not the path that humanity needs to follow.

Leto II did not see the golden path in its totality, before he became the worm emperor Pauls power of prescience was far stronger than Leto's. Paul saw it, he just couldn't abide the horror of it. Also Chani had nothing to do with Pauls decision, Pauls decision was predicated on two factors a) the horror of the Golden Path and b) the fact that knowing the future was unbearable as he had no freedom, no choice, which is why he stopped using his prescience all together, so much so that he was blind due to the stone burner, no longer being able to see with his prescience. Also Leto II did have something to lose, he begged Ghanima to find a way to kill him when he became the worm emperor. He was only strong enough to do it because he created his inner council with Harum leading it as a gestalt entity.

I think the best choice is the one which allows our actions to be judged by history.

If Paul Artreides saw the narrow way through, I guess that means he must have seen his son become a worm despot as well…

@spaveevo

Ай бұрын

yes

@owenflibbert8019

Ай бұрын

It’s debatable since Paul initially saw only one child, not the twins, and their birth is one of the last times his prescience is used. He seemed to have at least anticipated the possibility by the time he returns in Children of dune tho

The Golden Path was a false path taken by Leto II who in essense, because he was pre-born, was not human. How can he make a decision about humanity when he wasn't one himself?! Paul by contrast was human.

I see strong parallels between the Golden Path and the current struggle and debate over climate change.

@waykool698

Ай бұрын

Climate is always changing. Humans adapt to it.

@lizd2943

Ай бұрын

@@waykool698 Humans, like other animal species, can't adapt to anything no matter what. It's changing too fast because of human activity and a lot of people will die if something doesn't happen to mitigate it.

@DreamersOfReality

Ай бұрын

Or maybe we won't. Our continuation is not a foregone conclusion. That would be hubris to assume.

"It’s my contention that the difference between a hero and an anti-hero is where you stop the story." -Frank Herbert

There is of course question of was this action necessary for Leto II? The answer is that within the plot Leto II's ability to predict the future tells him that it is. This does not mean that it actually was since even Leto II's vision was limited by creatures like him and some advance technologies. He however acted using the best information he could have and made necessary sacrifices even personal ones. In my opinion Leto II was a good person forced to situation with only bad alternatives.

@morgoth4962

Ай бұрын

I mean yeah if you have to choose between violences, he might be right but still it's an allegory for real-life leaders and their choices.

@SystemLordNemo

Ай бұрын

​@@morgoth4962 Ultimate all knowing leader comes and his only message is: Don't trust the leaders! But ultimately like in the real life we never know if Leto II saved humanity and neither did Leto II himself. He like people in the real world are seeking "the good ending" but there are two problems: One can't see the future and nothing truly ends

@zulhilmi5787

Ай бұрын

​​​​@@morgoth4962 How come leto ll does know the future? He literally sees all possible future from every decision made. Claiming that he did not know if humanity is saved is pure BS when the whole point of the golden path is to save humanity from extinction

@scotscottscottt

Ай бұрын

@@zulhilmi5787 The idea is that every path leads to certain extinction besides the Golden Path.

@TheDancing0wind

Ай бұрын

​@@scotscottscottt Did you actually read the books?. Golden path is not 1 specific set of instructions - but it is a direction of actions that produce the result - survival of humanity. And yes he did not see the future in absolute detail but he saw it certainly good enought to be certain .. and you cannot dispute it as you are not in a position to do any prescience :) he is the expert. Yes in real world such claims would be silly. But In dune's universe prescience is very real and Leto 2 could do it better than anyone by a LONG margin. It was not just Leto 2 who saw the threat and the golden path (again read the books) but he was the one who took action on it. Its possible someone else could have done it. But then they would be the god emperror.

It's the globglogabgalab

Was Leto II Leloch Vi Britania and Eren Yeager before they were a thing?

@MrVlad12340

29 күн бұрын

Yeah, basically the same kind of archetype. Also you can add God Emperor from Warhammer here too.

To me the thing that makes me decide that the Golden Path is right is this: to Leto and Paul all of the lives they saved are not an idea, but a reality. They have seen the future and all of its possibilities, so if they chose to not follow the Golden Path, it directly removes them from existence, dooming infinite lives to never happen. When Leto travels the Sareer with Siona, he tells her that were it not for his rule, humanity would be extinct already. If you had the absolute knowledge that your inaction would lead to such a devastating result, is it not more cruel to let your race die, dooming all of the descendants of those you bring happiness to today? In the end, it wasn't his pre-born nature what made Leto to merge himself with the sandtrout: it was that he, unlike Paul, was a true fremen. The fremen would not have doubted to take upon the Golden Path, for they were a people that fully embraced selflessnes for the good of the tribe. Their entire lives were not dedicated to their own satisfaction, but a sacrifice to build a better tomorrow.

I think the golden path was created by Paul as a way to justify the billions that died in this name

@TheDancing0wind

Ай бұрын

Then you had not read the books - good job on posting your uninformed opinion

It's less a question of what is the right thing to do, it's a question of what would you do if you knew what Letho and Paul did. In the end would you really just ignore humanitys impending doom, just to give them their last, happy couple of thousand years? Or would you clanch and starve them for their glorious future. Make them misarable to be strong later, or make them happy in their last years. That's the dilema Letho and Paul faced, and imo they chose the right path, tho not the easy one.

@MrVlad12340

29 күн бұрын

Thats assuming they saw exactly the right path. Cause we know there are futures they cant see.

I suddenly undrerstand emperor from 40K

@DreamersOfReality

Ай бұрын

What? The God-Emperor (WH40K) made human extinction inevitable.

@MrVlad12340

29 күн бұрын

@@DreamersOfRealitywrong. He also had his “golden path” , however unlike Leto he had MUCH more omnipresent enemies constantly messing with it. If Horus Heresy didnt happened he would have advanced past the point of breaking on that path and basically left the Gods of Chaos in the dust. However they struck before that happened and ruined his plan. Yet even despite that he chose to sacrifice himself to let humanity survive and potentially find a new path.

*SPOILERS* *You only touched - and then only partially - on the means of the Golden Path; not its end nor its motive. Paul and Leto both saw a Great Enemy in their prescient visions; a threat that would spell the extinction of the human species. Paul was unable to bring himself to make the sacrifice necessary to protect humanity from this threat, while Leto resigned himself to do what was needed.* *In later novels it is revealed this Great Enemy are the AI consciousnesses - Omnius and Erasmus - who, though believed destroyed during the Butlerian Jihad, had actually managed to survive, beaming away on a radio carrier wave at the end of the war deep into the galaxy far from humanity's sphere of influence. Arriving at a base previously colonized by autonomous scouts millennia earlier, Omnius and Erasmus established the New Synchronized Empire far from the prying eyes of humans.* *Bad as that may be, the real threat - the one Paul and Leto foresaw - was the AI eventually developing prescience of their own. This technological solution to the problem of foresight was foreshadowed with the creation of the No Ships and the No Rooms. If humans could build machines that could accurately predict the future and hide anything from prescience within its sphere, such artifice would not be beyond the AI consciousness to do the same.* *Armed with a such power, there would be nowhere for humanity to hide from merciless, remorseless thinking machines that knew your every move, knew everything you would do before you do it while they, themselves, remained hidden from future sight. In their visions Paul and Leto see the human race hunted to extinction by this prescient, implacable foe; it was only a matter of time.* *To counter this, Leto embarked on a selective breeding program of his own; one that would favor genes that hid humans from prescience. The Scattering that ensued following Leto's death merely served to spread humanity - armed with these new genes - far and wide. The goal being that, if the prescient machines couldn't be defeated, then at least humanity would be given a fighting chance to escape their scrying vision, scattered in a diaspora across the galaxy to survive in hidden pockets here and there.* *_THAT_** was the Golden Path; the safe and predictable order enforced through the machinations and control of a succession of Kwisatz Haderachs, which would have ultimately doomed humanity to extinction, replaced by a new paradigm of prescient-proof, chaotic, irascible, restless humans spreading throughout the cosmos, refusing to be bound by anyone or anything.*

@dumpsterplayer2700

Ай бұрын

quick Q because i genuinely don't know, wasnt there only a few people with the anti prescience genes alive when he died? surely you'd make sure it was a bit more widespread in the gene pool before you declare mission over?

@JohnDoe-zl6qw

Ай бұрын

@@dumpsterplayer2700 Yes, but what Leto set in motion ensured they would spread. Not all of humanity would gain immunity to prescience, but enough to protect them from extinction. In an ironic twist I'm sure he appreciated, the very plan he set in motion was his undoing; he was killed because he couldn't fully see what was coming at the hands of the prescience-proof Siona. Which then became validation of his plan and "mission over"; if he, the God Emperor, could be killed by a prescience-proof conspirator within his own ranks, then that means his plan succeeded. After which there's no point in his remaining in control of the Empire because he's no longer truly in control; he can not see the totality of the future anymore and manipulate the fates of mortals. No longer at the mercy of the prescient, their fate was now in their own hands; which was the goal all along.

For some reason I just don't get the Dune lore, it seems so simple compared to worlds like Game of Thrones but there are so many undertones and I don't know who is a protagonist.

There is a complexity, in the "Trolley Premise" here. How else do you encourage mutation and evolution.

Well when you got the thinking machine empire out there in the shadows of the cosmos waiting, and that's the conflict that really defined the imperium it's somewhat justified but not really however the scattering did create a buffer zone and bought time for events to happen

@SystemLordNemo

Ай бұрын

IMHO FH's son's novels are not worthy to be part of Dune series.

@blakehenry9030

Ай бұрын

@@SystemLordNemo well my friend private property does still exists. And since he owns it he can do what he wants with it, and the people that usually down him are the same people that considered the Dune Encyclopedia cannon when it not and has never been

@SystemLordNemo

Ай бұрын

@@blakehenry9030 Copyrights be damned! It is clear Brian added elements Frank never intended. I'm not buying that BS of "secret notes".

@blakehenry9030

Ай бұрын

@@SystemLordNemo they said the same thing with the Tolkens Sons work's

@SystemLordNemo

Ай бұрын

​@@blakehenry9030 I don't know. I always got surface impression that Christopher published almost everything his father had ever written. In proof written and edited form of course. I have no idea if that altered anything significant. But none of this would matter if the books were good...

After watching the first 2 movies, coming here to learn what to expect for the next film, what the fk is this series? These 2 new movies give no indication that worm people are a thing to expect.

The Yellow Brick Road is Real !!!

Dune, the humanist version of lotr

No. The problem was, if Leto did not do it, in the future, it will happen the Krazilec: Ai machines with prevision powers that it will wipe out All humans from the galaxy.

Seriously, did you really understood the books?

3:23 Yes, obviously it is a part of being human. That is what a parent does for their child/children very few people value their own happiness over their children's and those that do are considered ill. Also, you say "If Leto truly possesses the ability see the future" and it seems fairly obvious in the books that he does, and to an insanely precise degree. It is also worth mentioning that his efforts aren't an attempt to prolong humanity or potentially avoid extinction; he does exactly what he saw needed to be done to ensure the total extinction he knew would happen otherwise can not happen.

4:28 "So which one is really the right choice?" This is the true heart of Frank Herbert's Dune saga. From Paul, to Leto II, to the entire Bene Gesserit order, the same basic question is being asked: Does the end justify the means? Sadly the movie replaces all ambiguity with Villeneuve's own subjective interpretation, and attempts to offer answers, which are arguably incorrect, in place of any questions. Hopefully Part Three can redeem the films, but after seeing the last film consciously outright mocking Stilgar and the "fundamentalist" Fremen, I don't think it will.

@sawtooth808

Ай бұрын

If Dennis Vilneuve (sp) _does_ end up doing Children of Dune, Stilgar has a little re evaluation of what Paul did as Emperor, and just where Paul’s “good intentions” led Arrakis (hint: not good)

@derek96720

Ай бұрын

​@@sawtooth808pause good intentions did wonderful things for arrakis. It was the fremen who never considered the consequences of how a green paradise would change them as a people. Many accepted it, and many rebelled against him. Be wary of the leader who gives you exactly what you asked for.

@Kodanikage

Ай бұрын

There are no “good or bad” choices, just dealing with the consequences.

In Islam evil is not justified even if it results in good. The ends do not justify the means. We're responsible for our own actions and will be judged for what we do. "And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel [evil] by that [deed] which is better; and thereupon, the one whom between you and him is enmity [will become] as though he was a devoted friend." Quran 41:34

🪱

After watching some other videos about dune, i genuinely hope directors take different route, cuz after 2nd book of dune it all goes downhill, seems like mr Herbert took a little too much of the "spice" 😂😂

@owenflibbert8019

Ай бұрын

The third book is good too but once you get to the 4th book and beyond things get a bit confusing and the characters are detached. The movies are only planning on covering the second book as the last instalment tho so nothing to worry about

This does not justify Paul's actions. He didn't see and didn't understand and ultimately refused to take this path himself. He was not his sons puppet master for this path. Opposite in fact. Paul compared himself to Hitler and I have to agree with his assessment. We have to recognize that Paul and Leto II were different individuals and justification that works in Leto II's case don't work in the Paul's case. Paul were a tyrant with family and self centered goal. Leto II were tyrant with utilitarian goal.

@scotscottscottt

Ай бұрын

I disagree with your interpretation completely. Your overbearing expression of your subjective opinion is actually very reminiscent of how Hitler imposed his own perspective. See how comparisons work?

@SystemLordNemo

Ай бұрын

​@@scotscottscottt You have right to stay silent. If you have no counter arguments or no any kind of arguments at all(and that seems to be the case) I suggest that you use that. :) The Hitler part was in the book. I didn't invent it so save me from your pointless insults.

@scotscottscottt

Ай бұрын

@@SystemLordNemo I have the right to speak too, amigo. And I will. Sorry you're so sensitive but I never insulted you. Just used a standard rhetorical device to illustrate a point. If you don't get it that's you're problem.

@SystemLordNemo

Ай бұрын

​@@scotscottscottt Come on now. You demonstrated nothing. Mostly it sounded as if you were really mad because I compared Paul to Hitler. And sure it is OK to like fictional characters but pointless insults are pointless. If you disagree with me you can just explain why.

@bigboi7817

Ай бұрын

Its not all that way though. If you read the book he sees very early on that even if he were to die, the jihad would still happen, if there were one survivor from his sietch at that point the jihad would go on. Do you expect me to kill everyone in my town and then myself to prevent baby hitler?

Have you raised a child? There are many times I've ruined their happiness now to teach them a lesson that will help them ensure happiness and even survival in the future. To a young child, there are things you do that to them are dictatorial and cruel, but in reality are saving their life and teaching them to survive outside the cradle? PS: Not talking about torturing children here, I'm talking about not letting them play inside a trash compacter or something.

@MrVlad12340

29 күн бұрын

A child analogy hardly applies to a whole species. Its just too big of a difference in terms of subjects.

Ahhh yes, Paul's deep love for Cheney

The more i think about it the more i lean towards leto's choice, species's survival always holds more weight than it's present, it's my point of view atleast.

@MrVlad12340

29 күн бұрын

IF we assume he made the ultimate right choice. Cause he can only see the futures where his power is not blocked or cut off and we know there are those futures too he cant see.

the books might be good but the movies aren’t. Too much lore that an average person won’t get through the film.

I think frank didn't like the option chosen by.... the protagonist. But the story sounds like an accelerationist take on history. Keep making things worse to bring out the best potential in the humanity.

Now you see you miss the point. Leto causing all that suffering assured that mankind would never allow a tyrant like him to arise again. He wasn't crushing mankind's freedom, he was investing in it.

@DreamersOfReality

Ай бұрын

That's just not how humans work, bud. You expect everyone, billions upon billions upon billions... FOREVER, to never follow a charismatic leader ever again? That's crazy. Two people in real life, can experience the same trauma, and then develop literally diametrically opposed responses to it. Imagine billions doing that.

+++++

Paul rejects the golden path. He sees the narrow way, and leaves it for a stronger man to walk. Paul is a coward and a monster. Leto II is merely a monster

Leto weeded out the useless eaters.

The extinction that Leto II saw wasn’t just a potential outcome, it was the inevitable destiny of humanity without the Golden Path. He saw that without his choices, humanity would cease to be. His choices were to guide humanity away from extinction or let them be happy and drive themselves off a cliff. Do you limit your children for their own good or do you let them play in the street because they like it?

3:50 Time preference. The same argument could be made that parents should let their children do whatever they want whenever they want, even if that means eating nothing but candy constantly, but an adult knows that the bliss of the short term sugar rush results in a medium term sugar crash and a longterm case of diabetes. Children lack the perspective and faculties to make informed long-term decisions for themselves, which is why parents must protect them from themselves, and that's exactly what Leto II, and to a lesser extent Paul, tried to do.

Leto eliminated the death stemming from war by 98% as a result of implementing the Golden Path.

You all realize we're living in the world of the god emperor, right? We're all being taught a lesson about personal freedom and charismatic leaders in real time and theres really no way of knowing how long this experiment has been going on for because history is told to us with very little real proof. This is Franks subtle nod to the idea of the Panopticon.

😮 he is absolutely justified😮 if he didn't do the golden path machines would have wiped out all human life everywhere😮 it doesn't matter how many people suffered😮 would have been any people at all to suffer😮 to begin with😮 you can maybe make an argument about Paul because Paul actually saw the golden path and was like this is super f***** up I can't do it😮 at that point he kind of actually did become a murderer😮 otherwise all the people he murdered to that point f*** them😮 you tried to kill me and my whole family😮 and now I will send it to the throne and control all the drugs in the universe and you still get in my way I don't care if you die😮 you chose your own fate it's suicidal😮 everything Lotto did though completely justified😮 you can see time you are literally all people everywhere he had the approval😮 of literally the human race without them even realizing it😮

Sacrificing happiness is a cheap price. Happiness isn't static or consistent. And it's not based on circumstance, but rather on perspectives of circumstance. Sufferings create far more strengths and potential than what soft and weak, untested men, driven by their appetites and emotions can produce even by mistake.

@MrVlad12340

29 күн бұрын

Define “weak”? Cause as far as i can see “weak” lost all meaning. Weak men send strong mem to die in wars while they indulge their degenerate vices. Are they weak or strong then?

Leto can see for certainty that humanity will go extinct if he doesn't enact the Golden Path. He ensures the life of an infinite number of people in the future at the cost of what will be the smallest possible percentage of all humanity that ever was or will be. It's a logical transaction.

Your argument is flawed the golden path means the seeds of human life continue-- the alternative is the end of life and its replacement by mutants or a bag of myriad technological scourges. Leto choose to become that mutant and take the reigns to avoid technological scourges snuffing out life as he knew it. If we use the trolley, Leto was the conductor, delayed the train hitting the worst outcomes, then sabotaging the train so no one else could ride it into oblivion--as it became impossible for anyone faction to control the whole of the human race and its myriad deviations again through spice.

The end of the species was not a risk, it was a certainty if he messed up the golden path. ALSO: the endless multitudes of people within Leto all obeyed him and there was order in him only because they where convinced of the necessity of the golden path, so his actions reflect the will of many many many many heroes inside him. You have poor reading comprehension. Paul and Leto bout are unequivocally portrayed as the greatest heroes humanity has ever produced, two men that lived for love, and sacrificed everything for the sake of their people. Rulers are people that make decisions, at such a grand scale, it is impossible to never break an egg, to never make any waves. Life is strife.

This is an interesting take, but, honestly, a very flawed one. The flaw is simple: you put your own current political beliefs of needing freedom as an immanent human instinct, which is not, frankly, a good idea. From the pure philosophical point, doing so means that human is "a being who desires freedom", so just like on a Plato's man debate, by doing so you kind of deny humanity to those, who do not desire freedom. And because humanity is much older then common societal models, you idea kind of means that for most of the timeof it's existence, it kind of did not consist of humans? For example, people in ancient times desired first and foremost conformity because only in their commune could they actually survive. The struggle of harsh environment and heavy labor provoked ingenuity, mastery of the elements and land to be able to form communities to work together, to be more than sum of the parts. "Ape together strong" as it was said in another good movie. From these communities came cities, from them - countries and gradually we got the world we have now, where survival is easy. And that, on the other hand, clouds the vision because it's easy for modern man to assume that it was kind of always this way, and because of that to try and find the "real" immanent features of humanity. Some like you see them as abstract "freedom" (which is... well, a mistake on many levels, but i don't want this comment to be too long), some find them in an even bigger conformity, some seek spiritual comfort in religion, some - in superiority ideals. But the butt of the joke is - they are kind of all the same if you look at them from a distance. Every political, religious, nationalistic or social view is imposing it's tenets on the follower with the same methods - by making the point of why this view is good and why others are bad, but the problem is - all of them can only exist in the ever-changing modern society, and in couple of hundred years they ALL weill be watched at as a relic of bygone and barbaric age, very distant from the views and beliefs of the time, whichever these beliefs could really be. So in esence you proclaim the end of history somewhat, implying that humanity will always be as it is today and if it is not... well, it may as well die out. Irony is, that this view is EXACTLY the thing Herbert kind of warned about. God-Emperor first and foremost gave humanity stagnant and unchanging peace exactly so that humanity would be forced to put out a needle of a spice dependency from it's elbow and continue to evolve. Because peace of mind and body because of the massive empire-sized drug is not peace at all - it's a slow extinction. I recommend for you the "Forever War" trilogy that kind of ponders the ideas of how alien the future could be for the past, but how on the other hand, by looking through multiple points in history you can see that it is not good or bad it's just different and has to be accepted as it is.

In reality you need to consider how likely things are, since prescience isn't possible.

This is probably why Tolkien hated Dune.

@lolalucxyz

Ай бұрын

I don't think Tolkien read the later books.