Well i am a "High elo player", take it as bronze or whatever if u really want to disagree, but its at around master when everyone understand basically the whole game, -there's always counterplay and i can sort of see what balance team is trying to do to allow you to use these counterplays against some strategies such as roaming. You see, -if you are winning lane, you can roam as much as you want, but this meant that enermy ad who is losing lane gets to farm for free gold, and your ad is now valuable, and at high elo, most adc will stack waves, so if you dont return, the jungler is going to get pinged to dive your "winning" adc is going to lose about 2-3 waves and thats almost a kill worth of gold on top of the lost exp. -If your ad is losing/even, then this is also some oppurtunity for the jgler to do his part of the job to decide if he wants to punish your roaming support by diving 3v1 bot or even sometimes if your team also has engage support, your bot lane will also dive them 2v1. -Okay but what can you do as a midlaner? well, actually alot of options, option 1: ward up a side and play around that side, enermy will likely not follow you into a jungle where there's no vison, and jgler missing. Respect your enermies, if you are always agressive then i have to say you are playing the game wrong, theres always something they have to lose if they are making a play that doesnt return them anything. midlane is so short, you can pretty much run around the jg and get back to a safer spot. option 2:go dive bot with jgler or without if its good to do so (you know enermy support jg all top, so 3v1 bot is free!). Really tons of great options for you to think about and punish, some of these i listed is some common ones we use. -Low elo: nothing wrong with you guys, but alot of you will say, well my team has no brain they will never punish anyways, but let's be real, if you put faker mid or any pro player on their role in low elo, do we really think they will be stuck in bronze or whatever? You have to literally think about your counter play and actually make it work, and alot of the times, your counterplay don't actually require your teammates to make them work. Even the ones that does, if you have tried and it failed cuz they wont listen, then take another strategy, because there's always more than one options. TLDR: actually alot have been said, but a support can only impact early game, if you respect it, even if you die once or twice, if you played well you would still be able to impact your game, so i'd say that support isn't that bad, because there's always a counterplay to what they are doing, cuz around mid/late game, they can barely survive any damage lol, if you truely think its mega giga broken, if you play it you gonna reach 1k lp challenger, then my word is: if you can't fight it, join it (but you will see other people punishing you for your mistakes soon enough).

@Sabithail

10 ай бұрын

senna soraka sona angry noises.

As a support main, one of the things that makes a good support is good macro and proper use of spare time, but I know that all roles require that skill.

@fabrice1013

Жыл бұрын

Im a silver support and im really having trouble identifing when i should go roam or if i should go roam at all bc 9 times out of 10 i dont trust my adc enough to let him alone on lane

@mohang8514

Жыл бұрын

@@fabrice1013 I forgot where I got this tip but when you and your adc manipulated the wave the way they(adc) wanted and started recalling, that's one of the times where you can start roaming either joining for jungle or looking for a gank in mid, also avoiding roaming much against hook champs. Don't worry I'm still learning the ropes.

@yazan9335

Жыл бұрын

@@mohang8514most adc in low elo dont even farm or know how to manipulate waves , which makes climbing with support kinda hard

@calebowen2006

Жыл бұрын

@@fabrice1013 idk if you'll see this and im not a jungle main so I can't say my information is 100% the best but here's what I've seen and learned in my time playing. if you crash a wave or its about to and are getting a recall in, you can roam either roam instead of recalling immediately or roam directly out of base. If the wave is about to crash on the enemy tower and your laner isn't recalling this is the most important and opportune time to get vision in the river or shallow vision in the enemy jg (deep vision if you know wher enemy jg is or have jungler with you). If your laner is smart enough to let the wave slow push to them and isn't pushed up to far, feel free to go for a roam If your jungler is on your side of the map looking for an invade or gank that's a perfect time to roam because it gives a large numbers advantage as well as both of you being close enough to react if bot lane gets pressured too aggressively. Anytime there is an objective coming up that your team may want to contest, specifically the 8 minute herald spawn. Trust me, as a jg main we will greatly appreciate you stopping by for 30 seconds to help use make it a 4v3 to secure the objective and we'll probably bring it bot side anyways as a reward. Lastly, if at any point your adc gets well ahead of the enemy, example 4/1/4 jinx with 87cs versus a 1/4/1 ezreal with 62cs, sometimes it's best to say goodbye to your friend in the botlane for a bit to allow them that solo xp while you go help makes it 3v1 top or mid with the jg to get those lanes ahead too. To summarize, easiest roam timer is after a wave crash when your bot laner is recalling (before or after you recall). Next, with work the the jg when they are around to set up vision, invade, or gank mid. Third, help play for objectives when possible. Lastly, don't be afraid to leave fed teammates, they need solo xp to carry and you can influence the map elsewhere now.

@cosmickitteh

Жыл бұрын

@@fabrice1013 I feel your pain as a yuumi OTP I will literally leave my adc for a split second to ward because they won't leash me while i'm warding so I can safely jump to them and in that finite amount of time the moment I hop off they decide to go awol and instantly 1v2 even without a enemy hook champ then spam ping me and yell at me like its my fault they finally decided to get agro because they leveled up a split second while I was gone warding losing xp.

I think it's impossible to balance this any better than it is now because the reality is, they aren't adding insane amounts of damage or anything to a fight. It's literally just because their entire kits are designed around utility which is universally helpful at all stages of a game

Funny how this strategy is only balanced by the ADC playerbase being extremely easy to be tilted and most of them not knowing how to play when you are not feed.

@thecanadiankiwibirb4512

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the resource drain from roaming is a tilted, feeding ADC

@ChucktheSpicyChicken

2 ай бұрын

I can't count the amount of times my ADC pinged me when i start roaming, some even start whinging in chat about me abadoning them. Told an MF who kept complaining that i'm not her boyfriend and my job is to support the whole team, not just be her babysitter.

ADC players need to understand that the Support isn't their slave/pet, they are the entire team Support. This sometimes means sacrificing their time bot to make a play elsewhere. Now, If I was mostly getting Blitz and Nautilus supports, or Sona and Seraphine, rather than goddamn Lux and Shaco...

Insightful. Of my roughly 1200 total league games, probably 800-900 are support. I can say that in my experience, the best way to impact *most* games in the current meta is to get your own ADC hyperfed and then deliver the diffy (alongside your ADC) to other lanes after you take first tower in bot. I will roam up in botside river some, but even on roaming supports I often dont roam a ton. Usually, the only time I roam is when my ADC is genuinely so awful that they can barely pilot their champ. I prefer not to roam because it has (in my experience) been more effective to have a hyperfed ADC, but also because roaming also insues a hidden penalty: If you stay in your lane, you rely on one other person to play well for lane phase. If you roam, you rely on MORE than one other person during lane phase, and in solo queue, those are poor odds. In truth, past lane phase, you will almost always need at least two lanes/positions to be doing decently in order to not insta-lose the game, but roaming on support is much more dependant on other people than ganking as a jungler. The nautilus is NEVER going to solo kill the enemy mid unless theyre on like 10% HP or something. Yes, support is easy, and yes, it is low risk/high reward, but really the reward is based less on you and more on your team. In solo queue, vacuum-based analysis cannot be taken seriously. That only sort of works in pro.

Support skill floor is lower than every other roles. However to perform on the role you need to have a deeper understanding of the game compared to adc, mid and I'd argue top (however top wave management is crucial for relevancy as you climb) Less micro. Less risk of failure as sup. But you need to know the game more

@webignar

Жыл бұрын

Returning player here (after a 10 year "break"). I've tried all the roles and settled on maining Top because of the isolation. It's helping me learn the game over again with fewer things to think about. I like the idea of playing for the team in general so I gravitated towards support as my secondary. Lately though, I've feel you really want your support to be good, so I've switched to ADC as my off role. My plan is to play Top/ADC for a season and switch to Mid/ADC for the next one. I'm going to main each role for a year, and Support is going to be second last, JG will be the last role I main. The game knowledge for Support and JG roles feel like they are the most broad, so I want to have as much overall knowledge before I main those roles.

@aemcra6256

11 ай бұрын

@@webignar good luck my man, seems like you got it all planned out

@webignar

11 ай бұрын

@@aemcra6256 Thanks! The depth of this game and the endless learning are something I couldn't appreciate when I was younger and less patient. It's awesome to know I have so much to look forward to in this game, and that so many things about the game and community are so much more positive now than back then.

>Roam From a supp perspective the enemy supp can roam too + Your roams could fail bcz of ADC dying or laners not following + A story about a game i won't forget : so it was in S11 after hitting gold with TK i played normal to spam Bard and sometime Zilean (If they had dmg)/Supoppy (if we needed tanks) so it was a Bard game against a Renata my teammates where not that great but still permaroaming wasn't so bad, then a fight occurs Renata hit a 5 man ult having more impact than me trying to help my teammates permaroaming when all she did was sitting in lane all game >Easy If a champ is easy to abuse no one can abuse it bcz everyone will play it, and those who won't or play other role will be stealed ( l3uyan mane 3ando l3beh ) make good designed champ or if they are toxic make them funny at least (Zilean) how can supp could appeal to player if there is only Grab-bot and Shield/Healslut that win depending on whatever get the strongside

I could watch an hour long league lecture of this guy talking no cap 💯

Having been a support main since Season 2, I think you hit the nail on the head; it's not that it's just all-around too strong, it's that the consequences for doing something risky and failing don't really exist (as long as you don't start intentionally feeding or something), which kinda removes counterplay. A lot of the issue comes from how front-loaded gold gain is, catch-up XP being as aggressive as it is (if you fall behind you can just gain literally 2-3 levels in a single fight or large wave sometimes), and also the fact that League has been SUPER early-game-pressure oriented the past few years. Seeing carry roles get to 3 items is pretty inconsistent, and 4 practically never happens. Anything that spikes in the first 15 minutes of the game (regardless of role, honestly) just has more agency than anything else since games close out much faster than items can be completed for scaling champions.

There is an aspect you seem to have overlooked: psychology. At least in my elo (plat) adc expects you to be on his side and if you leave him he will often tilt and put stress on you and the team, which can be devastating. But the same his true for the opposite: when enemy support roams midlaner (or other positions) will blame you as if you're supposed to prevent to happen. As a supp main, I rarely roam up to mid for the very reason that my adc will often flame you and that he often dies without me, and ofc blame me for it. As for your question, is supp op? Absolutely not, you often have to deal with crybabies adc who will blame you for their shortcomings. You almost never have same dmg/tankyness as other positions so your plays are riskier. I personally prefer it because you don't have to cs (I'm lazy), you can (and should) have a more strategic approach to the game (where to go, what to do, objectives, etc..) and, last but not least, you have more time for psychological warfare (banter enemy, morale support for team).

@ajaxkay8701

11 ай бұрын

i mute and make the best plays . i can’t stand adcs bro. immediately after loading into draft i mute the adc. and only the adc. then i play the game. i was stuck low plat as well. psychological hell hole. i had to mute all more than a few games but i played better and the game was far less stressful . and when you eventually learn to treat your teammates as npcs league becomes a relaxing single player tower defense game. making assumption, but based on a few lines i’m assuming u values human connection, so maybe adopting the treat ur teammates as npcs and mute all strat might not be ideal, but u could always occasionally banter with the few good souls still left playing league and just mute the rest. idk worked for me - climbing wise . everyone should just try to enjoy the game xDDD as if…

@TheIcyCube

10 ай бұрын

What i do is roam to mid every time we recall, that way your adc has literally no way of killing themselves by inting and you lose almost nothing.

You're mostly looking at the perspective of successful ganks, which has multiple prerequesites. For starters, you roam as a support, but if the enemy jungler is around to force a 1v1 or 2v2 if another lane joins, you're at a massive disadvantage. To gank as a roaming support, you usually have to commit heavily and playing a engage support will usually mean a disadvantage in lane against poke/damage supports. So what you percieve as extreme might often be the diff of a nominally weaker lane winning applied to a different lane. There's also a breaking point to how much you can nerf supports via income/xp. The XP nerf would inversely buff Nilah or lead to something like Zilean mid funneling to a roaming sup. Income nerfs would essentially force cheap builds or means to bypass it. Lastly, there's already a shortage of people which want to play as the nominally weakest role / the one with arguably the worst 1v1 potential. If Supports are even more reliant on teammates to do anything and essentially degraded to (anti) vision bots, then you'd have even more auto-fills and longer wait times. If pushed too far, there might even be a non-traditional role meta leading to the opposite, as you'd be even more focused on kills/assists for income.

supp main here, i main pyke, thresh and rakan. IMO supports should be given some sort of resource to have to worry about. and what are supports responsible for? vision. what if you were punished with getting less vision by roaming? i was thinking what if your supp item had to be assigned to one person (AKA the adc), and only when you’re near that one person you can stack your relic/spellthief’s (maybe the passive gold gen is also tied to being near that ally aswell.). this would make you have to be in lane more to get your ward item, and make you get it later if you just permaroam. you could also make support item spikes matter more to promote staying in lane more and getting gold on your item. as for the role being “easy” i think it’s just too easy to be useful on if you’re bad. blitzcrank hook has the same value whether you’re 0 deaths or 10 deaths, so mistakes are less punishing. i still think roaming should be part of the game thoug, especially post-level 6

@mcswashbuckler3833

Жыл бұрын

The reason blitz hook has consistent value is because supports are designed to be functional with minimal gold and let the adc take all the cs. The only way to change this is to fundamentally change the entire support role and make them gold dependent, which would require a complete reworking of adc as well since they're currently designed to require all the farm, even though they're in a duo lane. It would also make the game even more snowball heavy by both reducing your ability to lock down fed carries with cc, which supports usually excel at, and also making it even easier for the leading team to isolate and blow up the enemies

@siduxjxhdgzhdjxhxuuxxyhgg1079

Жыл бұрын

so bard and other roamers now cant play the game and every other support has to coinflip that their adc isnt autofill or awful so that they can actually get items. nice changes my man please stop cooking tho

Ah yes, nothing like getting constantly invaded by the enemy support, jungler and midlane and seeing your whole team spam "jungle diff"

Weirdly enough, I never really minded this that much, even as someone who pretty much only played immobile midlane mages that are very easy to gank (Xerath, Seraphine, old Aurelion Sol, Swain, Malzahar, etc), and a bunch of supports that aren't very powerful at ganking (though I did play Bard and Rell, but every other support I played is focused around bullying the enemy bot during laning, scaling into the lategame, or both). And that is mainly because support ganks are kind of easier to deal with than jungle ganks. Failing a gank as a support is less punishing than failing one as a jungler, that is absolutely true, but supports are also usually underleveled compared to mids, tops and jungles, due them sharing early exp with their ADC. Which means that you'll have to rely a lot more on your teammate to actually turn the gank into a kill, while also being more vulnerable yourself. Not only that, but unlike junglers, you actually have a lane, and your opponents can see when you disappear from your lane, and just back off until you return, while junglers are a bit more difficult to track and prepare for, due to their main farming place usually being completely shrouded in the fog of war. Champion design might also be a big contributor here. Most roaming supports have to either walk up really close to their enemy, or hit a skillshot that is either slow, or gets blocked by minions (and sometimes even both), whereas a Vi, Nocturne or Zac can just press their "go in" button, and instantly fly right at you in from a mile away, while giving you barely any time to react. Despite all this, the points mentioned in this video are still absolutely correct, and are the reasons why support is such a wonderful role to climb with. Roaming is something that every support player should learn, because it's simply inevitable that you'll run into a situation where it is undoubtedly your best course of action, even on Yuumi or Sona. But you shouldn't expect it to be something that you can do non stop in every single game. I've had Bard games where the 6 players outside of bot all played defensive stuff, and tried to scale, while I had a lane bully ADC against a weak early game botlane duo, and it would have been absolutely foolish to hang out and do nothing around mid, instead of spoonfeeding my carry some kills and plates on bot. Just like how I've had a bunch of Senna games where I got the team ahead by using my long range CC and aoe invis to make early game picks. So for my money, this is not a huge issue, although I see how it might be frustrating for many non support players. But unfortunately, I don't think there's a lot that can be done to address this, as it's simply an inevitable problem that comes with the idea of a role that doesn't have to farm at all, and is something that's absolutely present in DotA as well, in basically the exact same way that it is in League. I guess reducing kill exp might work, but that's basically the only idea I have here, and I'm really not sure if it's even a good one.

@diz6383

Жыл бұрын

Your point about being tied to a lane is exactly the concept I’ve abused using Evelynn sup in my games, the global pressure you enact is insane even to your own lane. I’m testing it out more as we go, but so far straight 70% wr to gold 2, no sign of stopping soon ahaha. If you’re interested, happychimenoises has a video on how someone made it to challenger with this pick

I disagree with supports being able to roam for free. They are almost always sacrificing pressure and pressure alleviation in the botlane. Also both mid and top are perfectly free to roam and apply pressure in other lanes (see roaming top supps or every assassin in midlane) just as much, if not more than supports. It seems to me that similarly to most league players you put a way too big importance on preserving laning experiences, such as top 1v1s, despite it being a very simplistic and incredibly boring strategy wise. If you nerf roaming you buff laning and enforce win lane win game or even lane scaling wins dynamics, both of which are way too deterministic and frustrating, just see how simplistic counterpick top metas are. League desperately needs the macro and strategy complexity to be encouraged, not punished with nerfs forcing players to STAY IN YOUR LANE. Roaming is also only strong due to the uncoordinated nature of solo queue, so nerfing roaming and early impact of supports will always be a buff to enchanter supports.

@wallproduction

11 ай бұрын

and yeah, you've probably been watching too much Nemesis. He is adamant on playing as he would in a 5 man proffessional team, in a solo queue environment, so everything that differs is perceiving as frustrating and negative

Riot is already trying to nerf Kill xp to the ground because of this playstyle. as soon supports hit lvl 6 they dont need xp from lanes for a while so nerfing xp share wouldnt mean a lot since roams and ganks dont last long for the minions to die anyway. And even if the roams nerf would reduce the overall xp from the team, Dragons are so OP when behind because it can give massive xp to backup those losses...

Great video , I agree with everything said honestly. I don't think this should really change either , i've played quite a few support games and it would get boring after 3 of them if you were stuck botlane during the first minutes of the game. That's when you get the most impact on the game , it's the same thing for ADC's , they generaly scale insanely well and become almost impossible to manage after a certain point , you can't remove that from them because no one would play it.

It is good that the support is encouraged to leave lane and help out in lanes other than botlane. League shines way more as a team game, otherwise it is just 4 carries sitting in their lanes or running across the map and oneshotting one another. Besides, a roaming meta is way more macro intense, so in that way I believe it is more skill expressive. More frequent game state changes lead to more decisions being made by players across the board which is more intelectually satisfying if you actually understand the game to a sufficient degree.

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

I do agree that roaming supports is a good thing, but then top and mid also need to be able to roam and impact the map without being set super far behind. Top lane suffers the most with being stuck in lane until they destroy a turret, while mid laners are often useless before level 6 and can't play aggressive without getting 2-3 people collapsing on their lane on every trade

I feel like if roaming supports are a problem just lock in engage and just perma dive the adc. I feel like that should be possible in high elo. But nerfing supports just makes the game harder for low elo support’s especially.

I recently started watching your videos. They are all great IMO, keep up the good work :D One small criticism - the music seems a bit too loud when compared to your voice, at least in my opinion. But besides that everything is a-ok! ;)

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the feedback. Sometimes I struggle because I have my volume pretty low, so I end up overcompensating on the music volume. Will keep that in mind for the next ones

@Wikwil

Жыл бұрын

When I edit videos either for myself or for someone else I try to keep the music volume in the -15 to -22 dB, depending on the music ;) Seems to work fine imo

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

@@Wikwil I left most of the songs in this video within that range. Maybe I could boost my voice instead, so then the music is audible, and if the voice is too loud, the viewer could just lower it through KZread

@Wikwil

Жыл бұрын

I tried doing it when I had a shitty mic and it honestly made my voice worse. Using compressor and normalize after noise reduction in audacity could help. Honestly I think that it's cool to listen to it in headphones after you export your video and maybe show it to someone else, because you might be looking at it differently after spending many hours on editing the it. But that's only a tiny suggestion, I think that your content is great overall :P

Its not XP share but catchup XP is just insane, I can say because I had a strategy where I went support item jgl amumu didnt farm at all and just camp bot and I would always be within three levels of everyone literally not farming

The support role was insanely buffed as soon as they got rid of sightstone/green wards. You are responsible for 80% of your teams vision for the entire game. Good ward coverage/vision control at the right time is game changing, and no other role can do this at the moment. This is the main advantage support mains have over auto-filled supports.

Seraphine can do some pretty good damage early on. So long as you know how to use it.

Great video as always. I wholeheartedly agree, supports do get a lot of agency and I wouldn't want to change that either. The only reason the support role has to be this way is because of the low playrate. As it stands now support has and always will be the lowest picked role, so to compensate for that they have to give them extreme levels of reward and low levels of risk. It'd be nice if they could find a solution that doesn't just involve supports becoming the god of the rift for the 15 minutes of the game.

I guess you left that jax clip at the end so i could have nightmares

I think buffing last hit gold and increasing the support item detriment from farming could put more emphasis on the fact supports don't/shouldn't farm as opposed to just nerfing the gold income supports get directly. To prevent this from ending games sooner maybe buff tower health? idk, just thoughts

As adc I love my filled sup that leaves lane as enchanter instantly when the enemy bot consist of full engage and I play something like Vayne or Trist that has no range or can't even freeze. Then they die mid and I die bot under my tower and I start to question my life. With sup mains this usually isn't a problem.

As a support main I agree the role is strong but I feel not how most people see it you said it yourself in every other role if you are behind gg you will 90% stay behind the rest of the game and have 0% to inpact the game but support don't have thid problem and that why I know that support is the strongest role in game

maybe replace the poke and get gold thing for the more pasive effect that the item has before, get gold when minioms die nearby so you have more punish for roaming AND/OR reward the behaviour creating an item for suports that gives more gold per assist and gives mobility while on river or jungle but less overall stats, and instead of wards is a oracle lens that evolves into a sweeping lens

support has way less carry potential than jungle. you can help your team a lot with early roams, helping your jungler and setting up vision, but in the end you still depend fully on your team to make something out of this lead when u get ahead in jungle by invading and getting a couple of ganks off you not only help your lanes but also get yourself ahead. idk im not a 10000h playtime meditating chinese challenger mountain monk but i dont think you can compare a midgame support whos helped his team get ahead a bit with a 1,5-2 items,3 level lead diana, nidalee, khazix crushing you when u have just finished your first item. they will just completely rule the game by the massive gold and xp lead. jungle is high risk high reward support is low risk unknown reward - depends on teammates and even if u have good decisionmaking i think just using chat wont work most of the times because people mute all, or straight up ignore pings. ive made it to masters in euw and even there many people play with eihter mute all or for whatever reason just dont communicate/ do their own thing. i dont know why they havent implemented voicechat yet but it would make things much easier.

@minimoYT

11 ай бұрын

The muteall thing is just sad tbh. Can't blame them, since higher elos seems to have a radioactive chat, but it sucks for coordinating with the team

Hook champs are broken; They are given the whole world for landing a single "skill" shot that has a larger hitbox then literally some AoE abilities and even mages. Naut for example has a hitbox almost *THREE* teemos wide (the largest hook hitbox of them all with blitz being second)

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

I love using Teemos as a measurement unit

I, an Iron Support/ADC player, always have the problem, that my team is tilting, if I roam as a support. Even if I get Mid, Jungle and Top ahead. But everyone is mad, that I don't babysit miss fortune...

Hhihi thats what i like as support! flashing on ennemy mid at lvl 3 and invading ennemy jungler, also...hooking his blue/red buffs 😁😜

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

I'll admit I also like playing Nautilus and pretend I'm a super hero (until I die under enemy T3 at minute 5 and wonder where my parents went wrong)

I started the game a few days ago and wanted to main Braum but I don't want to mess up my fellow ADC friend's game.

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

Braum isn't exactly rocket science, if you read/watch a few guides you should be able to pick him up. Maybe complement him with a more aggressive support depending on the ADC you're playing with, but nobody dislikes having Braum on the team

Supports is not an easy role. You have to lands your skills like any other champs to make impacts. You have to be very map awareness because you do not focus about lasting cs. it leads to know how to place wards and not everywhere to prevent your team death when time fight a ward save everything. You need to play different styles of support as you said engage, assassin jungler gank, healer, and mage. You have to make sure your death is worth for something. You have to know wave management when using relics. You get focused hard focused if you are the MVP in the team. It happened to me when I played taric. They focused me down because as long as I am alive, I can provide cc, heal and etc. I am so sorry but supports are not easy

@minimoYT

11 ай бұрын

I don't think support is so easy that you can't make mistakes, it's just easier than the other roles, and less punishing. Obviously there's a difference between an average and a good support, but a mediocre support isn't as much of a detriment as a mediocre jungler or mid laner for example

It's a jack of all trades role. I'm mom coming to heal ya. I'm dad laying down the shields and I'm also the police with CC. Yall are a lot to handle I'm aloud to go crazy every once in awhile

add more graphs and arrows like vars, but better because you explain better

Its complety overpowered, therefore supp items are sooo cheap, it's crazy how fast I can get full build as support in 30 minutes

Kalista is also very good early when shes a champion!

Perhaps support wouldn't be in such a strange predicament if Riot didn't decide on the outset that the role should be starving for gold in the first place. You SAY the poke support item "gives so much gold in the early" but you only get three stacks of the passive max at a time, which amounts to 60 gold - that's about a cannon's worth of gold. Oh and stacks don't accrue if you aren't nearby an allied champion because people took support items into solo lanes, and instead of investigating why maybe making an item to band-aid a whole role's self-made issues is maybe something they should address, they just hit the item with the appropriate nerf bat and left it at that. Don't get me wrong, the changes were reasonable - it's the item's need for existing I'm calling into question. So yeah, for risking about 2 waves' worth of time to MAYBE help around the map, risking your bot laner getting 3-man dove under turret which they practically have zero way of avoiding other than just walking back to tier 2, and risking giving your squishy 3-level behind to the enemy for 300 gold if you get caught out, you get.... 60 gold from your support item. And maybe assist gold, or kill gold (which you will then be flamed for "stealing"). This argument makes way more sense for the tank supp item, which actually gives you 3 full minions, and hopefully one of them is cannon. But even then, tanky supports are theoretically supposed to need even more influx of gold since their items are more expensive than enchanters' items. The item accrues 1000 gold max ever and then it's just wards and meager stats. The enchanter support items are theoretically weaker on average to compensate for them literally being forced to be cheaper because of the strange decision that one role in the game just deserves less gold. These are all just contrived problems that Riot themselves created by going only halfway with turning support into a "real role" for solo queue.

Why does the support get this? Because they are always like 3-5 levels down past the 13 minute mark.

@minimoYT

10 ай бұрын

Past the 13 minute mark they've already made the most of their impact, so then being a few levels down won't matter as much. Enchanters don't really need levels, and engage supports, while relatively squishy, have reliable tools that wouldn't scale anyway

Am i the only madman that track the enemy jun and control the wave bot to try run top to snipe a kill undertower on the enemy (not for the gold but to make him lose exp) or to just full unload post 6 even with a flash a full combo on him to push him out of the lane and make him take a bad recall or to start a freeze on his ass when he is now low health? And i am so mad to even take tp to return at the speed pf the sound bot (champ i am using is velcoz) Guess i am

maybe this is low elo thinking, but i feel like you only need to build support/defense until youre winning the lane phase, then you are better off building to try to deal max dmg and carry.

@minimoYT

10 ай бұрын

Depends on the support, but most of the time, it's a bad idea. Melee supports like Nautilus, Leona, Alistar, or Braum won't deal much damage even if you build carry items on them, it's better to be tanky because then they get more rotations off in a fight and will be much more effective at engaging, re-engaging, peeling for carries, and disrupting people. The only supports that can afford to build proper damage items are "supports" like Zyra, Lux, Xerath, Pyke, and Vel'Koz, and Morgana and Karma, who do have one or two big damage abilities and rely mostly on ability haste to be useful

@jdogsful

10 ай бұрын

@@minimoYT thats why tanks supps are redundant. when pyke or senna are better than naut or taric, why would anyone tank supp?

Is karma a good early carry support?

@minimoYT

11 ай бұрын

She's a good lane bully and peaks at 1-2 items, but her ganks aren't as scary as those of proper engage supports. She's good at getting the AC ahead and keeping them ahead

Wdym mid is a solo lane its a 5v5 it doesn t matter its just 5 mins into the game

Me just casualy permaroaming and wining somehow even tho i flip bot bard gaming ig

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

I do that as Nautilus too lmao

Roaming supports only work well in higher elos though...in low elo people are too dumb or aren't coordinated enough.

@minimoYT

11 ай бұрын

Even in plat-emerald I have a lot of success roaming as support. It doesn't even have to result in a kill, just blowing a flash and applying pressure is worth it

I think your opinions are all valid aside from enchanters, yes they protect the ADC a lot but most of them can only protect one champion, that means either them or the ADC, yes it may be annoying to die because Lulu pressed W on you but your team just needs to know how to play against it, Master Yi in high elo sucks ass because people know how to counter him with CC chaining, is it hard to play like a team without even knowing others, yeah but if mid laners gave up some of their protagonist syndrome to learn how to play as a team it would help a thousand times Tanks I can agree that they are annoying but if your team actually helps you they are passable imo I think the problem with support roaming being so powerful comes from the playerbase being stupid and not knowing how to play a team game as a team but i can understand where your complains come from, if your bot laners ward correctely and you use some defensive wards you shouldn't suffer as much but again, teams are different in every match and some people are dumber than others Also if you know that the support is coming a lot to your lane you can ask your jungler to 3v1 the ADC if possible, he may not die but he'll at least get tilted that he's getting dove and his support is constantly mid

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

I guess my main pet peeve with support roaming is that mid lane starts feeling extremely restrictive. Can't ever get a proper all-in because there's always a risk of the jungle or support (or both) immediately ganking. In my experience, bot laners don't have the habit of pinging when the enemy support is missing, so it's easier to get caught off-guard I have to concede on the enchanter thing, if there's enough engage and dive on the team, they can be dealt with more easily (except for Yuumi who's untargetable)

@jmoak14

Жыл бұрын

@@minimoYT it is kinda funny to see midlaners perspective of this since me and my duo support have been getting 4 man ganked and dived on repeat for week straight no matter how much we are warding. and lets not even talk about shen and tf ults

i really think that support items are really fucked up, the concept of support is that you sacrifice collecting ressources to put pressure early and bring utility to your team throughout the game, but support items just completely invalidates that

@yoisakikanade_

Жыл бұрын

it gives 1000g and then dips, supp has way lower income than everyone else supp items just make it so that theyre not getting mythic at 20 minutes

Do support players realize that ganked top 1 time and killing the anemy, just makes him useless the rest of the game?

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

Whenever I play sup, I try to go top after first recall, at worst it gets the enemy top tilted

nah sup is straight up the most difficult role in the game, and of course the most weaker lane, just pick a random sup and watch him play, as a lulu you need to shield the damage, usually before its happend, but is hard, a morgana using black shield to cancel naut hook? close to impossible. To play sup, is just pick braindead champ, get lvl 3, leave lane, back when is bouncing and call it a day.

@xsethy7728

Жыл бұрын

To be clear 50% of what i said is a joke, in the past sup seems to be REALLY MUCH HARDER then now, riot just making the game worst at every update.

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

It's funny actually, I have to sweat to keep a ~57% win rate on my main at my peak rank, but when I get to play support, I can relax and take it easy, and have a 75% win rate (smaller sample size to be fair)

@xsethy7728

Жыл бұрын

@@minimoYT To be honest I think the more time you spend playing sup the more bad habits you get so more than half of the supports are just lost on the map. Whenever I'm fill sup I get pyke, lvl 6 I never get close to the lane again, and until today it's the lane that has the highest winrate, around 70% too, btw in md5 and md3 I only played sup, even though I was the lane I played the least.

sup does 4.5 sec cc. ksante (brusier) does 4.5 sec cc + pull + knock up that does not get reduced by tenacity + dmg from tank champ + spam. players Question why is that the case ??? why can top laners play sup like sett/darius / fiora /belveth .... beccause overtunned stats .

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

This is K'Sante, a champion with 4,700 HP, 329 Armor, and 201 MR, has Unstoppable, a Shield, and goes over walls. Has Airborne, and the cooldown is only 1 second too. It costs 15 Mana. The W CD is even refreshed when he transforms. He has true damage on his passive. Then, when he stacks Armor and MR, he gets Ability Haste too, Ability Haste to his Q, and his spell casting speeds up. Then, he has an AD ratio, so his W…AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

lmao u act like the adc don’t throw a tantrum when you leave them and play safe

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

I mean, they do, but who cares about what the ADC says?

You forgot the part about your team raging for you daring to leave bot lane to do anything on the map. Sorry but while you should be right about how great this map pressure is, most players rage and feed / int if you try to impact anything not bot lane as a support.

@minimoYT

9 ай бұрын

I do play support often, so I understand what you mean, but if your ADC flames you for roaming, that's like, their problem lol

@Sarnith

9 ай бұрын

Yeah that's fair. I guess I'm just frustrated from it happening in so many of my games. That's not to say I play perfectly either, of course. But it happens often enough that it just burns me out on the game.@@minimoYT

brainrot

Aaaaaand another one ignoring the existence of wardens. Damn... they should make every warden's toplaners. Braum, Taric, TK... Should all be toplaner/junglers first. What's the point of a support that doesn't impact the game early and don't have the means to scale? If you don't have a hook or range you are out. These guys need garden levels of HP and mana regeneration for free.

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

TK may be a warden, but he can roam and engage well compared to those others. The problem that Taric and Braum have is that they need some sort of hypercarry on the team that they can protect, but they can't be the ones to get them ahead and snowballing because of their weaker engage potential

@seanboglio3605

Жыл бұрын

@@minimoYT so can any other enchanter and even better. That has been the staple and the 2 shields are incapable of defending through peeling or damaged AND can't engage too. It's very bad.

lmao when u 1 time leave the lane ur adc died like 10 times and flames u 99 of 100 adcs cant play safe

@minimoYT

11 ай бұрын

That's why I play ADC, I just go with Jhin, lay down a bunch of traps and play under turret like a bitch boy, if they try to dive it's at least a 1 for 1

@deniskasin2394

11 ай бұрын

@@minimoYT idk man the game feels rigged like the system know u have skill and u get a noob mate almost all time iits not fun anymore

The most frustrating thing about the whole game is that supports aren't punished by their mistakes, their allies are, so you can be the most useless support in the world and still have a pretty kda, making so every time there is some blamming no one will blame the support bcs they don't look bad in the scoreboard

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

To be fair, I've seen my fair share of ADCs bitching about their support lol

i thought you were gonna talk about just how fucking stagnant support is becoming but nah its just whining for 8 minutes straight if you dont encourage roaming, every support becomes yuumi and the roles skill ceiling collapses.

@yoisakikanade_

Жыл бұрын

yeaah as i was watching this he did make some interesting points but for most of the video it just felt like complaining fr

@yoisakikanade_

Жыл бұрын

like this video is a very one sided analysis of the role and he doesnt really talk about the downsides of supp/roaming at all

@siduxjxhdgzhdjxhxuuxxyhgg1079

Жыл бұрын

@@yoisakikanade_ its very materialistic. he talks about the statistical benefits of support and never about the fun of it. he also completely overlooks the risks of roaming and just how bad a failed roam can be plus the fact that counter roams exist.

The punish is that targons brace gives you dick all gold compared to true ice and if you're playing a champ with true ice. Then you're just playing the support? So if you roam heavy you're made of paper or did really good. Therefore the balance is both teams have this role and it keeps games moving.

@minimoYT

Жыл бұрын

Of course both teams have the support, so the role has a 50% win rate. The difference is that it has more influence over the outcome of the game than other roles aside from jungle. Top lane also has a 50% win rate, but they contribute less towards that number compared to other roles, that's why people think sup and jungle do too much

@Monkeydew1o2

Жыл бұрын

@@minimoYT Well that's kind of the idea. I'm not disagreeing with you but lets use CS GO as an example. You have the AWPer and the 'support' shot caller. One spends their currency on a 1 shot weapon (talon) and one spends it on 2 flashes and a smoke with a famas (alistar). The dynamic pushes more interesting interactions into the game rather than repetitive laning like it was in season 3-5. The support could also be viewed as a scuttle crab by a skilled mid laner. They have more agency over other lanes and players because they realistically have non directly. You can't carry the game the same as a 11/1 sona support as you can with 11/1 talon mid. but a well placed nautilus can make that talon dream a reality but a misplaced naut is just farm.

Always said that support is the best role played by the worst players.