This was something that I saw when I was meditating on the first psalm "But his delight is in the law of the LORD; And in his law doth he meditate day and night". The Law is in the intermediary realm. The temporal code of law of Leviticus is but a shadow of the real Law of Love. But I must pass through that shadow if I want to transcend it towards the light. And even when that is done, I must first adapt to the light of a candle, then, of a lamp, then of a fire, and only then, to the sun. Like in Plato's allegory of the cave. To jump straight into the light would burn our eyes and destroy our understanding.

This is a very good argument for why the Church needs to be found in the world, not as an abstract spiritual concept.

Absolute disdain for the the intermediary realm of the imaginal is like a kind of more rarefied gnosticism. If we can acknowledge the goodness of the material realm then we should be able to acknowledge the goodness of the intermediary realm too. God said that all of his Creation was good. One of the reasons that monastic attitudes became so universal in Orthodoxy is the fact that the Cathedral Rite was done away with and the Monastic Rite became universal.

@sfappetrupavelandrei

Жыл бұрын

This is a little more complicated as some Holy Fathers said that imagination is a quality of the human mind appeared after the fall. So they claim that Adam didn't have imagination in Heaven. I would be very careful in accusing Holy Fathers of gnosticism.

Wow. "If you separate the ascent from the return then you don't get the ascent." Briljant! It reminds me of the Biddha only truly entering Nirvana once he wishes to go back to samsara (can't spell it) out of compassion for the rest of humanity still in suffering. Such is compassion. And such is the heart of the Divine & thus divinisation; compassion (com-to share, passion - suffering. To share suffering and be hurt by the wounds of another). It is the heartbeat of kenosis & the perichoretic life.

You guys should discuss Jonathan's encounter with Hermes in detail..

@Ac-ip5hd

Жыл бұрын

☝️

This answers so much. Thank you for the clip.

This is great! I think the last part of the clip is summarized in 1 John 4, 20: you can't say you love (have) the apsolute if you don't love (have) the relative.

I have had visions, dreams and out of body experiences my whole life. Many of them voluntary many involuntary. I’ve been struggling to square my personal spiritual experiences with my conversion. I understand other peoples knee jerk reactions but for me it’s not so simple.

@sfappetrupavelandrei

Жыл бұрын

I think these things should be clarified with experienced Fathers.

@LKRaider

Жыл бұрын

@@sfappetrupavelandrei much better than relying on internet strangers, I agree.

@muntelestraniu14

Жыл бұрын

Yeah definitely bring this to an experienced Elder. It may be something or it may not be, or you may have a natural inclination towards it, but it is not something to be approached without extreme care and discernment.

@joshuachaffin1858

Жыл бұрын

@@muntelestraniu14 Absolutely agree. I’ve stopped having out of body experiences since becoming Christian just out of caution.. it’s a complicated problem.

It’s not clear to me in what sense Jonathan’s speaking of “the imaginal.” What follows is an excerpt from our Saint Ignatius Brianchaninov’s writings: “During prayer, your mind should be free of images and you should thus preserve it carefully, dispelling all images which spring up through the power of the imagination, for the mind in prayer stands before God who is unseen, Who cannot be represented in any material way. If the mind allows images in prayer, they become an impenetrable curtain, a wall between the mind and God. “Those who see nothing in their prayers, see God,” said venerable Meletius the Confessor. If the image of Christ appears to you during your prayer either tangibly or makes itself manifest in your mind, or the image of an angel or any saint-in short, whatever image it is, do not take this appearance for a real one at all and pay no attention to it whatsoever, do not enter into conversation with it. Otherwise, you will be certain to become subject to delusion and to the most powerful spiritual injury, as has happened to many people. Man is incapable of communing with holy spirits until he is renewed by the Holy Spirit. As he still finds himself in the realm of fallen spirits, in their captivity and under their enslavement, he is only capable of seeing them and they often appear to him, having noted high self-regard and delusion within him, in the guise of angels of light or in the guise of Christ Himself to destroy his soul. The holy Church uses holy icons to stir up devout remembrances and feelings and not at all to stir up daydreaming. When you stand before the icon of the Saviour, stand as if you were before the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, who is everywhere present in His divinity as well as present in His icon; when you stand before the icon of the Mother of God, stand as if you were before the Most-Holy Virgin Herself- but keep your mind free of images: there is the greatest difference between being in the presence of Lord, standing before the Lord and visualizing the Lord. The feeling of the Lord’s presence brings a salutary fear over the soul, imbues it with a salutary feeling of reverence, but visualizing the Lord and His saints imparts a sort of materiality to the mind and leads it into false, proud self-regard and leads the soul into a false state, the state of delusion.”

This is resonate with what those in varying communities term, spiritual bypass, one reason so many are exiting the "new age" shadows. Another analogy in spiritual circles is the glory of ascension only to avoid the current realms, bringing what you've discovered back into the world. Does this make sense?

Jonathan Pageau should look into the images used in imaginative prayer, as in Jesuit/Ignatian meditations and contemplations of the Spiritual Exercises. I think he'd find it all right up his alley.

@DerekJFiedler

Жыл бұрын

That would be one of my follow questions for Jonathan too.

@rexgloriae316

Жыл бұрын

Fire Within by Fr Dubay is great. The problem I have is that I simply read books on contemplative prayer, but of course it is not enough till you put it into practice.

@DerekJFiedler

Жыл бұрын

@@rexgloriae316 have you ever calculated the hours spent reading about prayer versus actual prayer hours? Also, have you read the book Into the Silent Land?

@rexgloriae316

Жыл бұрын

@@DerekJFiedler I assume you mean reading about vs doing? not sure, in general I think I lean towards acquiring (a bit of acedia I am sure). Regarding the book - no have no heard of it, but will add it to the list... here we go again!

@DerekJFiedler

Жыл бұрын

@@rexgloriae316 exactly. Hope I didn't tip the scales for you with my book suggestion 😬

@4:29 that reminds me of the line in the Tao Te Ching which mentions how the Tao is the ancestor of all things and has even predated God. This is because the Tao is that non dual source that every dualistic aspect comes from. This would also be referring to those who reduce god to the platonic form of absolute good, and the devil as absolute bad. In that sense the Tao would be their source or what they were before differentiation into good and evil because we know one only by contrast of the other, which means one could not come into existence without the other. So before this differentiation, prior to existence, there is Tao or the non-dual layer of existence, or non existence...or both and neither.

@NTNG13

Жыл бұрын

From reading the Tao Te Ching I got a sense of strong belief in an original unique source from which everything flowed, something that's also impossible to comprehend. Seemed at the time very close to the Creator aspect of God, like the Father but impersonal, just an unfeeling source of things.

@joer9156

Жыл бұрын

Orthodox Christianity believes that evil does not have a true existence, it is more like a shadow. So if something gets in the way between God and telos you get evil. That's how God is both the source of everything and solely good.

@Ac-ip5hd

Жыл бұрын

Check out Christ The Eternal Tao.

Have you and John considered the works of Hegel? As an important idealist figure he should be considered. Also, does John mean Schiller, or Schindler?

Its simple to make complex, complex to make things simple. if wisdom is so complex such that it is not understandable to even a coffee barista, then it doesn't work. Trapped in the monastery. The key is to derive things down to the "Periodic Table of" ... names (rectification of, the proper definitons of), and then build from there. "If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. "When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music do not flourish. When proprieties and music do not flourish, punishments will not be properly awarded. When punishments are not properly awarded, the people do not know how to move hand or foot." .

@joer9156

Жыл бұрын

The "trapped in the monastery" thing happened because the Cathedral Rite was done away with and the Monastic Rite became universal for all members of the Church.

I would hope that you elaborate on this, Jonathan; how do you reconcile your understanding with the concerns of Saint Ignatius Brianchaninov, for example? I must say, I’m doubtful that the imagination should be entertained when one endeavors to enter into the Divine darkness, but I’d first like to understand your take on this. Edit: I’ve made a second comment above which expounds on this.

@FrJohnBrownSJ

Жыл бұрын

I'd love someone to dialogue about this with. Are you interested?

@peepoclown1

Жыл бұрын

@@FrJohnBrownSJ Hello Fr. Brown, and good afternoon! I can’t say this is a subject that I’m thoroughly familiar with, but I’m happy to try and discuss this in whatever capacity I’m able. I understand that the Society of Jesus has a particular relationship with imaginative prayer per Ignatian spirituality-why is this so, and what is their [Jesuits’] perspective on the Eastern aversion thereto?

@peepoclown1

Жыл бұрын

@@FrJohnBrownSJ I’ll be rather busy in the hours to come, so do forgive me if I’m a bit slow to respond this afternoon/evening.

@FrJohnBrownSJ

Жыл бұрын

@@peepoclown1 I'm pretty tied up with work at the moment. I've got so many thoughts on this and would love to bounce them off of someone (probably EO would be most fruitful)... Do you ever do zoom meetings with random Catholic priests you meet in KZread comments sections? Hahaha

@peepoclown1

Жыл бұрын

@@FrJohnBrownSJ I can’t say that I often do, but-time allowing-I’d never turn down an opportunity for conversation, and especially not when this is the topic. (:

I think the phrasing is a bit off in several parts of the conversation. As the title indicates, they (at least seemingly) pit the Hesychastic tradition against a 'holistic view' of traditional society, incl. imaginative and creative thinking. Although I understand where they both are coming from, I think it would be helpful to clarify that the warning of the Hesychastic tradition is *not "against storytelling"*. Jonathan hints at that too if I'm not mistaken. The way the post-Schism West has dealt with mental images is highly problematic, and an indication of the fact that another spirit is governing there. The mentality of the Orthodox Church is not compatible with 'accepting mental images'; not by a long shot, that is! Imagination during prayer, the naive acceptance of visions, or even worse, the provocation of mental renderings of spiritual realities, is highly unwise and dangerous. Simply said: it is for those fools who are 'trust in their own ability to discern'. On the other hand, that does not take away that imagination in general is condemned! How else would we get beautiful folklore stories of the East? Storytelling does matter, and it is essential for the spiritual development of our society. The difference is this: those who have come to a 'spiritually maturity' (often monks) will shed some external elements of the healthy -or unhealty- society in order to progress, and will gird themselves with soberness, because their heart has arrived at the 'pure knowledge of God'. We then should not frown upon imaginative storytelling, but much less so pit the Hesychastic tradition against whatever else, because the goal of this present life is the pure knowledge of God, that is Theosis. It is a matter of relative importance. I thought this channel was actually about that... :) Thank you for the conversation, +fr.a

No wonder when the Buddha became enlightened and yet decided to stay alone in the forest the gods told him to go forth and spread the dhamma.

not full union with God, that's impossible in Christianity

@joer9156

Жыл бұрын

We cannot achieve union with God's Essence, but we can achieve union with God's Uncreated Energies.

@leondbleondb

Жыл бұрын

By definition I don't think full union with God would be possible without being God yourself

@lorefox201

Жыл бұрын

@@joer9156 yes, that's what I meant

"straw-personning" ffs