Your Chinese lathe story had me singing, “It’s Raining Minh.”

@Ezshootspews

Жыл бұрын

Bruh 🤣🤣

Annealing parts before machining them is always a good idea as it relieves any stresses in the heat affected zone. As others have said, get a timer for the oven and run it overnight ready for machining in the morning. Efficiency is 99% percent about workflow. Machine in the morning, weld in the afternoon, anneal overnight. Another good investment would be some form of welding lathe. This can literally just be a cheap import 3 chuck to hold the part ona slowly rotating shaft. This will allow you to lay down the weld in one continuous bead rather than stitching it in a stop start fashion. On that note, if you decide against that and continue turning it by hand, consider welding opposite sides. So do one side, then roate a full 180° then back to the first weld, etc. This helps even out the stresses that can orherwise warp or twist a parts as one side cools and contracts.

I got sooooo pissed at a phone that would not focus that I threw it as hard as I could. Turns out being old and throwing something as hard as you can will mess up your arm. I had to get a new phone and it took about a month before my arm healed. That's my temper story! 😂😂

There is something else that needs to be considered. We weld a lot of 5140 equivalent steel (actually 40Cr out of China as there is a lack of Engineering quality steels in Australia) A few years back some dingbat welder thought he knew better and disregarded weld procedure. He failed to preheat the parts before welding, and instead on pacing the parts in a "hot box" to slow cool after welding, this dingbat threw them in a cold stillage. End result was a very hard HAZ (Heat Affected Zone) - upwards of 55HRC in the parent (5140) metal just below the fusion line. Shortly after entering service, there were multiple failures, and in my capacity as the PBE (Poor Bloody Engineer), I had to find out what was going on. The initial excuses being offered was the the end user was overloading our product, which I did not believe, so I went hunting for the cause. When I found a new part in our stores with a crack in the parent metal running the length of the weld about 1mm ( that's 0.03937" to you Yanks) , the penny dropped,,, underbead cracking!! Long story short, it cost us a lot of money and loss of reputation to fix things up,, all thanks to this dingbat who thought he knew better.

@Tunkkis

Жыл бұрын

You can buy seamless 40cr or 42crmo pipe from china as "explosion proof hydraulic tubing", and make yourself a 9 mm barrel at home with water, electricity, and 3D printed tools.

@keithjurena9319

Жыл бұрын

We know there are 25.4 mm per inch.

@leor2830

Жыл бұрын

@@keithjurena9319 That's right mate,, but,, you don't know what side of the road to drive 😀

@keithjurena9319

Жыл бұрын

@@leor2830 Only some islands drive on the left..continental types drive on the right

@leor2830

Жыл бұрын

@@keithjurena9319 FYI mate, we are a continent. All joking aside, did you know that not until that long ago there was not even a "standard" inch. The US inch was different to the UK inch, and the Canadians had a different one again. To standardise an inch, it was agreed to use SI units equivalent (25.4 millimeters) ! There is a very good video on KZread that explains it kzread.info/dash/bejne/mYKG0NSnZaerZZs.html

People scared of the door open have never ran a manual lathe 😂

@dontask8979

Жыл бұрын

Exactly

@Tunkkis

Жыл бұрын

I'd definitely choose the improved safety and not flinging coolant 'n' chips everywhere over being a second and a half faster, but you do you.

That difference in color from the stainless pin is the chromium from the stainless oxidizing on the surface. Since you're welding over it, the stainless and the surrounding alloy steel are mixing a bit at the edges, so you're getting a gradual color shift instead of a sharp circle.

@haydenc2742

Жыл бұрын

and different hardnesses/stresses as well

When I was 19, I was working for Douglas Aircraft before, during and after the merger with McDonald. I clearly remember one night seeing a guard running down the isle with a glove that had a finger in it. That was 58 years ago and I’ve never forgot that sight.

Most of this manufacturing stuff goes way over my head, but I still find it super fascinating. Definitely keep making these videos.

Cool video! Not only will tempering before machining improve insert life, it will reduce post-machining distortion and improve tolerances. Machining weldments almost always causes them to move around substantially.

@benjaminhenry5869

Жыл бұрын

Can you help me understand why a harder metal helps improve insert life? I would assume the opposite... I have a desk job.

@wiedehopf9068

Жыл бұрын

@@benjaminhenry5869 Tempering is the process after hardening to remove (excess) hardness. In this case it's to remove basically all the hardness.

@ethanmye-rs

Жыл бұрын

@@benjaminhenry5869 me too! It’s really the difference in hardness that’s causes issues. Also, tempering is used *after* hardening to reduce hardness (usually to gain some ductility) and improve uniformity.

@DavidHerscher

Жыл бұрын

@@benjaminhenry5869 You have it flipped the wrong way around, tempering draws back the hardness.

this right here is the difference between "I handmade a couple cool prototypes to show to investors" and "serial production". these videos should be mandatory viewing for crowdfunding product hopefuls.

Maybe, set the heat treats timer to run the hour it need to aneal the part and have it shut off, do it over night and they are ready in the morning for machining. I love your videos! Keep up the awesome work.

@keithcarpenter5254

Жыл бұрын

Probably wouldn't be allowed for insurance reasons......fire risk etc.

@addmix

Жыл бұрын

​@@keithcarpenter5254 multi-day heat treating and annealing is a fairly common procedure and workshops and OSHA standards are designed to limit flammability or areas where intense heat or open flames are common. Try to burn down a steel warehouse and get back to me.

Looks like a winning process improvement. Anytime you can bump your speeds up and save tool life is a good day.

Your insurance has entered the chat about the bypassed door safety on the HAAS. Also ah yes I too love the kaotic machine shop gore videos. Nice to see a fellow man of culture.

KZread unsubs me, once again! KZread hates your guts and I love it. Your channel is probably the best guntube channel out there. Nobody else shows in-depth engineering analysis of rooty tooty point and shootys. Nobody can bring these inanimate amalgamations of precision machined alloys and polymers to life, quite like you do. Also, nobody is doing desk pops anymore, making PP brakes, is talking about the varying degrees of calamity, in regards to the safe operation of heavy machinery in south east asia. I too, enjoy analyzing those type of videos... for reinforcement... of... why safety doesn't always need to be third. You're an absolute mad man, but in the best way possible. Keep doing what you're doing. If they hate you, that means you're doing it right.

My brother is a journeyman machinist and he used to tell me the average age of a machinist was 12 and the people they work with was 2. So when Mark says, why would you put your hand in the way? There is the answer. :)

Mr. Serbu, I'm a blacksmith and I build custom flintlock firearms. I'm wondering if you anealed or at least normalized the piece if you wouldn't have even better longevity on the tool. Annealing is when you heat a steel piece to critical heat (non-magnetic or about cherry red) and bury it in a box of wood ash until its cool. That will make everything dead soft. Normalizing is when you heat it to a critical heat and then just setting it aside out of any breeze and let it cool. Not dead soft but close and normalizing has the added benefit of shrinking the grain structure of the steel making it tougher Doing either of these things will make your inserts last longer I would think, but again you have the trade-off of time to let it cool. Also, I don't know if you would have to heat the whole thing to critical again and quench and temper again. I don't know if these work pieces have to be at a certain Rockwell hardness and the piece comes that way. Thanx for the video. I don't know much about making firearms in a conventional way. I do it in a two hundred year old fashion. I'm fascinated with modern lathes and milling machines. I guess I'm strange, but my hobby can bring me from fifteen hundred to twelve thousand bucks. It all depends if someone wants a hand forged barrel and lock.

Was watching The Boys the other day and Butcher whips out a BFG-50! I’m sure you’re aware, but I thought that was cool! Love your work and it’s good to see you getting some screen-time!

That lathe is awesome!!! I would love to work with equipment like that.

I love your engineering and guns. I used to be a machinist and my biggest issue with the couple shops I worked at was the owner critique of my setups lol.

Oh man, it suddenly feels weird to see you use the same CNC controller as I've been using for months in school. I mean, it makes sense, it's a very common system, but still. A rather familiar looking lathe, too. Ours don't beep, though.

What a cool machine! I've only recently have gotten into hobby machining with a mini lathe and milling machine because I never thought I was smart enough to do anything like that. Better late than never (62). That machine there is like the holy grail. My eyes glass over at all the buttons.

I like these videos “mixed into” the “normal” content

Austenitization point. I always learn something new from you Mark! Thanks for continuing to post videos.

Use to do axle work, and welding up the bolt pattern caused the same issue. The welds so hard the ate everything. I would have to weld them up a good 1/4" high and grind most of it off to get down to the softer material. Then we started baring them in sand while red hot. A couple hours later they were still warm, but with the slow cool, they cut like butter.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge to us plebs in such a wholesome and understandable way Sir -if only the teachers I had in school had your skill in imparting these nuggets of truth then my life would've been very different...

Once again you are the innovator in the gun business my friend ! Keep on with the keeping om!

I'm enjoying these videos, please keep them coming.

I learn something new with everyone of your videos plus the people in you're comments section always teach me more! Win win situation!

There's a channel called breaking taps, and he demonstrated metal getting cut up close with an electron microscope

My take on this would be to build a rough, but bigger kiln, heat it with gas 'cause it's cheaper and don't care about overshooting the temperature a little bit. Let it cool inside over night and it should be fine.

Chinese Lathe Videos are a good way to teach you how carefully you MUST respect powerful machines.

If you don't nerd out from time to time and look at your processes you could very well be leaving a lot of money on the table. Furthermore all it takes is for your bit supplier to run short and now this information is invaluable and you have it rather than having to panic and "figure it out time now." Having multiple COAs is always a good thing. Maybe it's just me but anytime I hear anyone say, "Well this is how we've always done it." I have an internal urge to slap them silly. That line of thinking almost ALWAYS leads to the sort of panics that result in, "OMG WHAT DO WE DO NOW!!!" They turn their brains off.

Very cool video. Even on my tiny lathe I can tell interrupted cuts are the best way to trash a carbide bit. Thanks for sharing the idea, thoughts and performence issues.. :)

Great video Mark

i can watch you run that lathe all day Mark, thank you

Very Interesting video. Thanks for sharing.

Excellent explanation for some of the things you do to make a weapon very interesting thank you for sharing this six stars brother

Looks good Mark

Great video!

yeah this is a problem. sometimes have to mill hardened jaws for pressing machines and that damned boron nitride insert is not lasting at all. keep up on doing more Serbu 50 BMG rifles!

Off topic from the annealing side of things, but you could save a whole bunch of time welding the bolt head to the bolt body if you get yourself a rotary welding positioner. Could possibly lead to less insert wear as well since the weld size will be more consistent through out each part and from part to part. Something to consider anyway 👍👍

Loving your VIDEOS

Great video 👍

The joys of the cost benefit analysis.

Awesome video

Great video

Nice work.

Though the aneling takes time, your able to run your cnc faster and save the wear on your tooling which is times gained back.

Watching you fiddle in a running lathe with the door open reminds me that the age bracket with the highest fatality rate in OSHA statistics is men 55-64...

@justotalkalottashit8392

Жыл бұрын

That is an ignorant statement. I am pretty sure you've never been in the same room as a manual lathe, and 100% sure you've never even seen a CNC in person.

@mikeblair2594

Жыл бұрын

@@justotalkalottashit8392 Wow! Trying to live up to the name you gave yourself. cool

@damianbigelow9511

Жыл бұрын

That's what we call "Complacent" That's when shit can get real bad real fast...

@mattmarzula

Жыл бұрын

It reminds me of the safety shutoff that keeps the lathe from running with the door open.

@BerndFelsche

Жыл бұрын

Tool vs temper. You can do the arithmetic.

Need some AvE safety stickers on that Hass!

@xmachine7003

2 ай бұрын

Focus you Fuck,good place to start😂

The heat treated units are stress relieved and will suffer less micro fracturing from dissimilar/nonlinear stresses.

I love this kinda stuff

Damn, Marl Serbu referencing the Russian lathe incident. That's insane. When world collide.

Cost analysis of running the parts thru the oven (electricity, life of the oven coils and the extra step and labor loading unloading the parts) vs slower machine time and shorter life tool life (plus the small amount of labor savings of not having to change the tool as often).

You have to yell 'Focus you fack!' It works for Ave. Also since you've changed your material hardness you should talk to your tooling supplier to see if there's a better insert for your application now.

Mark, What if you went back to High-Speed Steel instead of Tungsten-just for this one purpose? Twenty-Tears ago, when I was learning Machining, the Instructors STILL regarded Tungsten Carbide Cutting tools with Fear & Loathing. Word was, they were terribly fragile and inclined to shatter. Wait, am I thinking about Ceramic Cutting tools?

@randomidiot8142

Жыл бұрын

Ceramic is definitely fragile. Very high speed low feed high rigidity requirements on those. Carbide inserts are relatively fragile, depending on chip geometry. They can be relatively tough, but not tough like HSS. An issue with HSS is machining consistent geometries. Carbide inserts don't have that particular issue. HSS could work, but you'll be running lower speeds to keep the cutting edge from getting hot and melting/wearing away. I used to use HSS a lot for barrel turning, but if I went a little too hard I'd have to regrind on every pass. I can do an entire barrel with one carbide insert running kinda hard now. The cost of an insert corner vs my time is worth it.

Ugh, sounds like you need to do a cost/benefit analysis, once the heat treat is included in the process, it becomes a matter of increased tool life and cutting speed vs. trashing inserts, slower machining time and earlier tool failure. How many parts can be machined with one insert if they are normalized/heat treated vs. non heat treated parts and slower speeds and feeds. Yep, cost benefit analysis, also the time and cost of normalizing has to be included, your heat treat guys might make you a helluva deal on normalizing, but it also makes the vendor a potential bottleneck. I believe I would try a thirty part run with both conditions and see what seems more efficient/cost effective. Just saying and you're the guy who has to Pi R Square the results. Great Video !!!!

Do you think the argon pressure is enough to harden all the way through the cylinder wall? or just a few mm into the surface? I am trying to wrap my head around possible fixes other than the temper cycle

Blowing a bit Argon gas over the weld doesn't much to quench it. It's the surrounding material, that acts as a heat sink.

Would one of those induction heater coils help to quickly heat the welded area to the temperature you need it to get so it's all the same hardness? The one I have will heat steel to red hot in just a few seconds.

Add a ramp-soak controller to the HT oven if it does not have one, let them run overnight. Problem solved. I have some synthesis steps which need 25-32 hours so I have multiple furnaces running at once to keep up. A cheap ramp-soak is like $100 USD

@justotalkalottashit8392

Жыл бұрын

Your power bill must be in the millions.

ms: d'you see that? me: no. iphone: i'm only focusing on fingerprints for apple's biometric database, not .50 bolts

It is worth testing to failure on the heat treated parts to see if they are stronger or weaker now?

Mark, How hard are the locking lugs and breech face when you are done? I would guess 40 Rc core, and perhaps 50 Rc on the surface; but what do I know.

The metal of the pin is likely to have another hardness level than the rest. You could check out the hardness level in a chart and see what the hardnes should be after the heat treat. Was there warpage after the heat treat? How did dimensions hold up? When you have a lot of parts to heat treat, the time it takes to heat treat per part goes down. Also the manhour labor goes down because you dont have to be there while the heat treat is going on. Greetings, Jeff

Is CNC the way to go in this process though? I vaguely remember doing an internship at a pneumatic tool company, and they had me grinding shafts or axles on a grinding machine that had two opposing wheels and they rode through it and fell out the other side. Wouldn't something like that be cheaper and more efficient to maintain then having to anneal and then temper?

Not knowing anything: Will you have to redo testing to make sure the new process doesn't effect strength or compromise integrity of the part?

I hope mark has not been digging in the back yard because That blinking green light is ABSOLUTELY CAPTIVATING!! Late last night and the night before Tommyknockers,Tommyknockers knocking at my door.......

Mark, Would Cermet give You better results on the hardened part that Coated Carbide?

ive had a bob cat moving chips on a lathe that swung 67 inches at br machine. cutting a papermill roll

As the great AvE once said "Focus You Fock!"

Now just wondering if you shave it after you heat treat it won't it change the metal structure so the bolt won't last as long

I wonder if a different welding process would prevent the hardening in the first place.

No wonder there is such a back log your running the hole shop😂

@floridagunrat1625

Жыл бұрын

Welcome to most small businesses!

Does it make the bolt safer in the long run if you temper it and reduce the weld joints from fracturing in those places.

@rickoshea8138

Жыл бұрын

I think it does. Anneal on the same day as welding...

Sounds like tempering is a good idea save the money and not tear up parts at the cost of some time.

Could you do it with a grinding operation instead of cutting it with a tungsten carbide insert?

Does it also normalize the internal structure of the bolt/weld...once machined then hardened it could have all the parts/weld to be closer in hardness all the way thru as well (could be reducing stress points internally you can't see (reducing fatigue cracks due to repeated stresses (not like there are high stresses in a .50 right ;) )

Ah the haas beep. I miss haas. I hate the Mazak I'm running

There's a dozen ways to skin a cat and you picked the weldment route. I probably would have went with something different but it's your cat; skin it anyway you like. Have you seen those coil induction heaters some use for heating up round things such as your bolts? The coils come in different diameters and lengths depending on your needs. They are usually just a hollow tube like a piece of brake line that's wrapped into a coil. They pump liquid (often water) through these coils to keep them from getting too hot. You could use one of these to spot heat your bolts to anneal before turning them in the lathe. I'm not sure if you would need to stick them in sand or something to slow the cooling or not? It all depends on your metal properties. You made it look like your taking your bolts directly out of a hot oven which seems strange to me. If that's the case then an induction coil heater would work well for you. Those ovens don't like the thermal shock from opening their doors while still hot and will break down the bricks sooner.

Do you use another program on the extra welded ones or do you use the same program?

@tenlittleindians

Жыл бұрын

It looks like he just altered the spindle speed in the program. No point in saving both programs because eventually he's only going to be making them one way.

Now then the next question is does it save you enough time/carbide wear and tear to justify the time and power to make it worth while. The other thing I'll say is I'm surprised you don't have some sort of jigging to align the bolt in the jaws. Something pneumatic through the rear of the spindle bore to push it forward or something. Pretty sure you're talking about the Russian Lathe Video.

A video like this makes one wonder what the gov’t will do with people who own these machines if they ever take all the guns…? Just a thought.

hay mark can you please make another vedio about diabilo..so we can know more details

My opinion. Do whatever produces the higher quality part. If it doesn't matter. Go with faster lower production cost method.

One of the peculiarities of men. They gain knowledge about something, they are compelled to use that knowledge. The question is; , does the tempering produce a better product? How many parts will the insert complete after the parts are tempered. I think those are the factors that will make or break the tempering cycle. If the inserts last 4 or 5 times longer, it might be a wash. If the part is better, as in a finalized condition after all the process, yeah, you're gonna temper before machining the weld area.

@Ammoniummetavanadate

Жыл бұрын

Tempering at his scale is basically free so it isn't really much of a trade-off

@tenlittleindians

Жыл бұрын

A better part is a relative thing. I've seen many machinists fuss over surface finish when it's not a requirement for the part to be fully functional. Don't waste time and money for things the part does not require to be functional! A good example is common cement for floors, roads and sidewalks. You can "broom" finish it or work the surface until it's as smooth as glass. The glass finish might look nice but it's not any stronger and those semi drivers running down the highway get more traction from a "broom" finish and are less likely to hydroplane when it gets wet.

I would rip that tweetter out of the keyboard in a heartbeat. Why you dont use a spindle bore stopper. Would speed things up nicely.

reminds me of an Ogrish video featuring Chinese factory workers...

Coolant??? Before anyone starts on me I have seen this happen with parts. I don't know all the science behind coolant recipe but I think its more how the coolant shocks the surface when machining. I had do a cosmetic surface a while back and found brushing on some way 68 in a quick pinch to get parts done for customer worked out better. I only had 200 parts so it wasn't like it took forever to complete the job by brushing some oil on each part after I chucked them up.

mark, my guy, the chinese video you were referring to was an animation, check yo eyez

7:40 Jezz i saw that! A terrible accident! the man gets grinded because he's wearing a long sleeve who got caught on the shaft... Safety first! (it was on russia)

can you make a new rifle, that uses 5.56 but has a similiar rpm to a ppsh. asking for a fren.

you can hear the difference in the turning, what is the difference between cost ? the cost of the tool bit and the cost of the extra step of tempering, production cost is the bottom line as you well know

@Ammoniummetavanadate

Жыл бұрын

That tempering oven is probably 3-4kW so like a dollar of electricity per cycle, so probably ten cents a bolt.

Mark you know an internal stop would save you time as well.... instead of that double peddle tool stop dance

@tenlittleindians

Жыл бұрын

You also run the risk of a chip getting in the way to throw off your precision when using internal stops so you then need to blow out the chuck each time before inserting the next part so your not really saving any time. Another problem with internal stops is your locating off the back of the part. If the critical dimension tolerance was measured off the bolt face then that's the surface I would want to locate from.

Anneal a whole oven full of bolts over a two hour oven one cycle. Then let it cool overnight. Close the door (unless you leave that open for the camera)

If you have difficulty machining them why not use EDM and use a carbon or copper electrode instead of wire if there's not clearance to run wire EDM for the bolt head lugs?

No, I'd never do that. LOL

what about the bolt face and lugs, I think untempered would be preferable...?

@elektro3000

Жыл бұрын

The bolt face and lugs aren't getting austenitized and quenched to martensite (hardened) until the heat treat process that they do after machining. But untempered martensite is NEVER a good thing, especially for parts that see impact (like bolt lugs). It's extremely brittle, so even if you only temper it at very low temperature and don't reduce the hardness much, any tempering at all will increase impact toughness a lot.

@rickoshea8138

Жыл бұрын

The whole bolt will be heat treaded later. Then all heat prior heat treatments will be erased.

So your saying machines dont have the same feel as a machinist?

Maybe cut the weld with a ceramic like an RNGN-45 without coolant instead of carbide then do a finish pass with a CBN.

@rickoshea8138

Жыл бұрын

Ceramic is more brittle than tungsten carbide. So, no. Not without annealing the weld first. Or heat treating the whole bolt.

@jackjames3884

Жыл бұрын

@Rick O'Shea I've run them on welds just like this and much bigger, that were sometimes done by robot welders, cutting stellite welds on materials anywhere from 4140 to inconel both with and without salt marquench annealing. The edge of the ceramic will chip a bit almost as soon as it touches the weld but they're so much harder than carbide they'll still keep eating. The CBN will clean it all up and make it look good on the finish pass. It all comes down to speeds and feeds.

@tenlittleindians

Жыл бұрын

@@jackjames3884 It also depends on your initial depth of cut. You need to go deep enough to get just under the scale hardness layer. If he's using chip breaker inserts they usually have a minimum depth of cut for the chip breaker to work. Sometimes with hard interrupted cuts you can't push the cutter to chip breaker depths without breaking inserts. I've sometimes had to go to ceramic inserts without chip breakers to make thin cuts in the material to stretch out insert life. Sometimes they even last longer running them dry. The reality is no two jobs are the same. When you think you got it figured out you save the program and document what inserts you used with a given program. A month later you setup the job again and find your previous settings don't work so great anymore! Maybe you guys in climate control don't experience such variations from day to day life.